Re: Templating Solutions
True, DW monkey can crap anything up, but not True that H::T is better to DW edit than T::T (You can set your tags to be !-- TT_CODE -- just as with H::T. Leo On Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 05:34:44PM +0100, Struan Donald wrote: * at 18/06 17:21 +0100 Roger Burton West said: On Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 04:36:00PM +0100, Greg McCarroll wrote: The main reason I prefer H::T to T::T is that H::T templates can be given to Dreamweaver monkeys to edit without my having to worry that they'll screw them up. That is an important consideration although in my experience a taleneted dreamweaver mokey can screw up pretty much anything that isn't created by dreamweaver in the first place.
Re: Templating Solutions
Philip, Have a look at this, TT2 based solution, it's a bit bloated (as it includes page numbering and various other functions): http://test.cuckoo.org/script_template.txt, the key line is: my $results = Emap::HolidayFinder::Tod::do_search(\%form_input,$dbh); This is then merged with the template by parsing it in as a reference in %vals. The template used (depending on number of results) would either be: http://test.cuckoo.org/template_results.txt http://test.cuckoo.org/template_search.txt Hope these examples make it clearer how design logic can be seperated. Especially note that the code does not have to worry about how to get a drop down list value selected or whether an error message is to be shown (just if it should be set). Leo On Tue, Jun 19, 2001 at 07:45:26AM +0200, Philip Newton wrote: Matthew Byng-Maddick wrote: It is possible to write embedded perl templates well, but a lot more difficult than if they are separated out. How does non-embedded Perl look like, then?
Re: Technical Meeting - 21st June
On Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 07:15:32PM +0100, Dave Cross wrote: Oh... er... it's only three days to the technical meeting and so far I don't seem to have any talks for it. Thursday.. what, this thursday where does the time go. Assuming I can make it (have to check something), I'll give a little update on the new web site. If you are really desperate I can talk through my XML - DB schema and docs thingy, but it's not ready for release so only if people are interested. - Both short talks. Leo
Re: Templating Solutions
At 08:36 AM 6/19/01 +0100, Leo wrote: Have a look at this, TT2 based solution, it's a bit bloated (as it includes page numbering and various other functions): http://test.cuckoo.org/script_template.txt, the key line is: my $results = Emap::HolidayFinder::Tod::do_search(\%form_input,$dbh); [snip] Hope that's not copyrighted Emap code you have there :-) Rob
Re: Templating Solutions
On Tue, Jun 19, 2001 at 10:11:47AM +0100, Robert Price wrote: At 08:36 AM 6/19/01 +0100, Leo wrote: http://test.cuckoo.org/script_template.txt, the key line is: my $results = Emap::HolidayFinder::Tod::do_search(\%form_input,$dbh); [snip] Hope that's not copyrighted Emap code you have there :-) Was part of what I got permission to 'open source' :) - It's not as if they're going to want to use it any more :) Leo
Re: Technical Meeting - 21st June
Leo Lapworth [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 07:15:32PM +0100, Dave Cross wrote: Oh... er... it's only three days to the technical meeting and so far I don't seem to have any talks for it. Thursday.. what, this thursday where does the time go. Assuming I can make it (have to check something), I'll give a little update on the new web site. Bugger. I definitely can't make it. -- Piers Cawley www.iterative-software.com
Re: Templating Solutions
David Cantrell wrote: On Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 08:24:13PM +0100, Matthew Byng-Maddick wrote: On Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 07:54:36PM +0100, David Cantrell wrote: On Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 04:46:25PM +0100, Leo Lapworth wrote: I'd also like to mention HTML::Mason - Euuu, No, no and thrice no! (ok, has some nice 'bits' but NO - thou shalt not put thy HTML and thy Perl in the same file). It is NOT POSSIBLE to completely divorce presentation/application. So you end up with all sorts of languages made up to be mixed in with the presentation - like PHP and the mini-language of TT. Why are those OK (I'm thinking specifically of TT - we all know PHP sucks for other reasons) but plain ol' perl isn't? Ohmigod, I'm agreeing with Cantrell on something!! What am I doing wrong? ;-) Seriously, I agree 100% that you should strive to seperate application from your presentation as much as possible, but seeing that you can not do this entirely, you may as well embed perl in your HTML and save yourself the trouble of inventing a whole new wheel. That sounds like a contradictory statement there - of course the line will never be 100% clear cut-out... And as for inventing new wheels - well we're all coders scientists engineers here... That's what we do! You can still stick your business logic elsewhere and have that called by the perl embedded in the templates. I see where you're coming from, but think about how this will be abused - coders will get lazy and eventually just embed all the business logic in the templates. Then your life will be a living hell. As a worst case scenario you'll end up with (eek!) an inverted Bugzilla! ;-) With the vast array of options we've got on Perl tools for templating embedding serving (and other -ings), it seems to me the trend is to create a whole bunch of new wheels. Then everybody talks about them the better wheel(s) is pointed out, and then maybe then the wheels are improved to become uber-wheels while in the background the cycle repeats itself... I'd argue that embedding code in your templates is on the way out, and the sooner it goes the better. I think it was a necessary step away from embedding templates in your code (eg. cgi scripts), but now it's time to recognize the aforementioned split revise our models tools accordingly (and create new ones if necessary). But then again, this has prolly all been said before. Anyways, that's my 2c. -- Steve Purkis [EMAIL PROTECTED] t: +44 (0) 207 614 8600 Unix Developer red | hot | chilli f: +44 (0) 207 614 8601
Re: Templating Solutions
On Tue, Jun 19, 2001 at 10:20:37AM +0100, Steve Purkis wrote: David Cantrell wrote: Seriously, I agree 100% that you should strive to seperate application from your presentation as much as possible, but seeing that you can not do this entirely, you may as well embed perl in your HTML and save yourself the trouble of inventing a whole new wheel. That sounds like a contradictory statement there I don't think so. Whilst you should seperate application and presentation as much as possible, it's a recognition that you'll never be able to *entirely* seperate them, and so seeing that you're going to have to have *some* code mixed in with your presentation, you may as well re-use an existing language instead of inventing a new one. of course the line will never be 100% clear cut-out... And as for inventing new wheels - well we're all coders scientists engineers here... That's what we do! Well yeah, and it's fun too, but in this case the new wheel is not necessary. And if I'm building this for your company, I think you'd rather I spent time writing a kick-ass application (which would of course be maintainable, extensible, scalable and all sorts of other laudable -ables) rather than spending the same amount of time writing a kick-ass mini-language (or learning someone else's mini-language) and a mediocre app. I see where you're coming from, but think about how this will be abused - coders will get lazy and eventually just embed all the business logic in the templates. Yes, they will. Unless you have proper procedures in place to prevent it. Luckily, perl makes it rather easy to encapsulate application logic elsewhere. I'd argue that embedding code in your templates is on the way out, and the sooner it goes the better. So how do you think it can be achieved? -- David Cantrell | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david/ Good advice is always certain to be ignored, but that's no reason not to give it-- Agatha Christie
Re: Templating Solutions
snip type=inevitable love/hate circular debate/ I was going to stay quiet on this one (still don't know why I am now joining in). I am finding XSLT XML to be a good alternative to normal templating techniques. One of the biggest benifits I've found is being able to generate the one data set and have it rendered in different ways for different applications. I presume this is possible in TT2. H::T has the drawback of only allowing substitutions for tags defined in the template. Changing the template to render say a reduced set of data typically involves changing code. I'm also free to choose my transformation platform, using something like XML::LibXML or Saxon on the server side, or just throwing it straight to the user and letting their browser take care of the rest. Don't think DW jockeys will like the XSLT, but I'm fortunate in not having to deal with them. My £0.02 Ian (... trying desparately to avoid joining the XML bandwagon ...) _ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
RE: Templating Solutions
From: David Cantrell [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2001 10:51 AM On Tue, Jun 19, 2001 at 10:20:37AM +0100, Steve Purkis wrote: David Cantrell wrote: Seriously, I agree 100% that you should strive to seperate application from your presentation as much as possible, but seeing that you can not do this entirely, you may as well embed perl in your HTML and save yourself the trouble of inventing a whole new wheel. That sounds like a contradictory statement there I don't think so. Whilst you should seperate application and presentation as much as possible, it's a recognition that you'll never be able to *entirely* seperate them, and so seeing that you're going to have to have *some* code mixed in with your presentation, you may as well re-use an existing language instead of inventing a new one. But as Richard wrote yesterday, the point of mini-languages like the TT2 language is that they are specialised for one particular process[1] In the case of TT2, you can write logic in it, but it's only very simple presentaional logic (output one of these blocks for each thing in this list, for example). Another good reason, is that the people designing the output format aren't necessarily the same people that write the data-gathering application. With TT2 you can have a team of highly skilled and highly paid Perl programmers doing extremely clever things to gather the data and a larger team of lowly paid template designers producing the XML, HTML or whatever templates you need to output the data. You can learn the TT2 language in an afternoon. Perl, thankfully, takes a little longer. Dave... [1] You don't, for example, object to writing regexes in a mini-language within Perl. -- The information contained in this communication is confidential, is intended only for the use of the recipient named above, and may be legally privileged. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please re-send this communication to the sender and delete the original message or any copy of it from your computer system.
Re: Templating Solutions
On Tue, Jun 19, 2001 at 08:08:50PM +1000, Ian Brayshaw wrote: I am finding XSLT XML to be a good alternative to normal templating techniques. One of the biggest benifits I've found is being able to generate the one data set and have it rendered in different ways for different applications. I presume this is possible in TT2. H::T has the drawback of only allowing substitutions for tags defined in the template. Changing the template to render say a reduced set of data typically involves changing code. I'm also free to choose my transformation platform, using something like XML::LibXML or Saxon on the server side, or just throwing it straight to the user and letting their browser take care of the rest. Having spent last weekend playing with XSLT and XPath, I've come to similiar conclusions. At the very least, XSLT is entertaining. But what really blew me away was how easy XPath is for grabbing random bits of your XML for use elsewhere. Whoever compared it to regular expressions for XML wasn't far off the mark. Combined with psgml-mode in emacs, to create xhtml files, it's a rather nice authoring solution. Don't think DW jockeys will like the XSLT, but I'm fortunate in not having to deal with them. You'd be surprised how many people are willing to learn something when it's got microsoft attached to it and big whopping books from que. -Dom -- | Semantico: creators of major online resources | | URL: http://www.semantico.com/ | | Tel: +44 (1273) 72 | | Address: 33 Bond St., Brighton, Sussex, BN1 1RD, UK. |
Re: Technical Meeting - 21st June
Oh... er... it's only three days to the technical meeting and so far I don't seem to have any talks for it. Err, I have to produce 3 hours of material so I don't think that the technical meeting would be the right place for it. Apart from that it isn't finished yet. If there is another technical meeting before YAPC::Europe I will do 30 mins worth of material or 3 hours abridged (sort of like campbels condensed soup). Its been a few years since I did this kinda thing so I will be in need of constructive critisism. Red
Re: Templating Solutions
More on XML/XSLT/seperation of roles philosophy http://xml.apache.org/cocoon2/index.html paul Ian Brayshaw wrote: snip type=inevitable love/hate circular debate/ I was going to stay quiet on this one (still don't know why I am now joining in). I am finding XSLT XML to be a good alternative to normal templating techniques. One of the biggest benifits I've found is being able to generate the one data set and have it rendered in different ways for different applications. I presume this is possible in TT2. H::T has the drawback of only allowing substitutions for tags defined in the template. Changing the template to render say a reduced set of data typically involves changing code. I'm also free to choose my transformation platform, using something like XML::LibXML or Saxon on the server side, or just throwing it straight to the user and letting their browser take care of the rest. Don't think DW jockeys will like the XSLT, but I'm fortunate in not having to deal with them. My £0.02 Ian (... trying desparately to avoid joining the XML bandwagon ...) _ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
Re: Templating Solutions
Jonathan Stowe sent the following bits through the ether: As a reference for this kind of thing one might ( if one can be arsed to look at Java stuff ) to look at the way the Enhydra thingy does things in creating classes in directories like : We don't need no stinking directories - we can generate Perl code on the fly. This is why comparing Java and Perl tools is tricky... Leon -- Leon Brocard.http://www.astray.com/ Iterative Software...http://www.iterative-software.com/ ... Change is inevitable, except from a vending machine
Re: Templating Solutions
Dominic Mitchell sent the following bits through the ether: You'd be surprised how many people are willing to learn something when it's got microsoft attached to it and big whopping books from que. Would it be entertaining for people to give small talks on the templating system of their choice at the technical meeting on Thursday? (as long as everyone don't pick TT2 of course...) Leon -- Leon Brocard.http://www.astray.com/ Iterative Software...http://www.iterative-software.com/ ... Off the keyboard, thru the router, over the bridge, nothing but net!
Re: Using perl for a high performance mailer daemon ?
Greg Cope sent the following bits through the ether: I want to design a mailer for sending large numbers of individual messages to a large list. You're writing a mailer in Perl. Mailers have been done before. If you're using a slow one, then look at other ones, such as exim. Leon -- Leon Brocard.http://www.astray.com/ Iterative Software...http://www.iterative-software.com/ ... S met ing's hap ening t my k ybo rd . .
Re: Using perl for a high performance mailer daemon ?
On Tue, 19 Jun 2001, Philip Newton wrote: Greg Cope wrote: Sorry to drag the tone back down to perl You could at least have done it on the proper list (you know, the one that Jonathan Stowe said he wouldn't be closing down this afternoon). CC'ed to the real list. I fixed the reply address on lists.dircon.co.uk so it shouldnt matter :) /J\
Re: Maths Problem
Chris Benson wrote: Mmmm, so if there are 3 water lilies with circular leaves, what is the largest they can grow on the surface of a sphere without overlap? On a circle it's easy to see it's just less than the radius of the circle. Not so easy with a sphere. Well, first off, the circles won't be circles as we know them since they're not 2D circles but have a 3D component (or they wouldn't be on the surface of the sphere but rather cutting a slice through it). However, I'd imagine that with three such bulgy circles, the best you can do is space them equally around the equator. Cheers, Philip -- Philip Newton [EMAIL PROTECTED] All opinions are my own, not my employer's. If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
Re: Maths Problem
On Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 12:01:05AM +0100, Chris Benson wrote: Mmmm, so if there are 3 water lilies with circular leaves, what is the largest they can grow on the surface of a sphere without overlap? On a circle it's easy to see it's just less than the radius of the circle. Not so easy with a sphere. Looks like evenly-spaced around the equator. With only three points, they'll _have_ to be coplanar by definition. And, of course, a belt of n points around the equator is even spacing, but doesn't look good... Roger
Re: early peek at a bit of fun
Dave Cross wrote: On Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 11:53:30PM +0200, Paul Johnson ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: I'll have to be an honourary member since I'm in Switzerland at the moment That's just down the road in comparison to some of the people that consider themselves members of london.pm :) Who holds the distance record? dha, presumably? (I suppose Simon Cozens had him beat while he was in Japan, but was he part of London.pm then? I think he is now.) Cheers, Philip -- Philip Newton [EMAIL PROTECTED] All opinions are my own, not my employer's. If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
Re: early peek at a bit of fun
Greg McCarroll wrote: I was just playing around and wrote http://217.34.97.146/~gem/perl/lpm_cpan_lb.cgi Internal Server Error The server encountered an internal error or misconfiguration and was unable to complete your request. Please contact the server administrator, [EMAIL PROTECTED] and inform them of the time the error occurred, and anything you might have done that may have caused the error. More information about this error may be available in the server error log. Apache/1.3.14 Server at 217.34.97.146 Port 80 (Oh, and I don't think [EMAIL PROTECTED] is a valid address according to RFC 2?822. Bad Apache.) Cheers, Phi I got a '500 Server Error'. What's wrong with my script? lip -- Philip Newton [EMAIL PROTECTED] All opinions are my own, not my employer's. If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
Re: early peek at a bit of fun
Greg McCarroll wrote: I'll cleanup/optimize/add error checking tommorow. but i thought i'd let you see it tonight for fun and advance warning. And remove the trailing comma? (Perhaps use 'join' rather than 'map $_,' or whatever?) If i haven't got your CPAN id included in the list at the bottom please email me off list, i just skipped through the who's who very quickly getting a decent list of people who looked london.pm-ish to test it. Cheers, Philip -- Philip Newton [EMAIL PROTECTED] All opinions are my own, not my employer's. If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
RE: early peek at a bit of fun
From: Philip Newton [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, June 18, 2001 7:33 AM Dave Cross wrote: On Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 11:53:30PM +0200, Paul Johnson ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: I'll have to be an honourary member since I'm in Switzerland at the moment That's just down the road in comparison to some of the people that consider themselves members of london.pm :) Who holds the distance record? dha, presumably? (I suppose Simon Cozens had him beat while he was in Japan, but was he part of London.pm then? I think he is now.) Last I heard, we had at least one subscriber currently living in Australia. Leon, how about a london.pm world map :) Dave... -- The information contained in this communication is confidential, is intended only for the use of the recipient named above, and may be legally privileged. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please re-send this communication to the sender and delete the original message or any copy of it from your computer system.
Re: YAPC::Europe: flights, hotels and minigolf.
On Sun, 17 Jun 2001, Greg McCarroll wrote: * Leo Lapworth ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: Well, I'm now 'official' all the way, flights and hotel. Easyjey seem to have worked it out and have put up the flight costs by a couple of quid (£71 inc card charg of 3 quid)! still thats not bad what i think they do is start cheap then slowly raise the price as seats get booked up i'm wondering how many London.pm are going to be on this flight shit i just had a thought, do easy jet serve drinks? do they? please say they do? *panic starts to set in* ;-) There is a semi-decent bar at Gatwick airport anyhow Or we could all meet up for a pints in Horley first :) /J\
Re: YAPC::Europe: flights, hotels and minigolf.
* Jonathan Stowe ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: On Sun, 17 Jun 2001, Greg McCarroll wrote: * Leo Lapworth ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: Well, I'm now 'official' all the way, flights and hotel. Easyjey seem to have worked it out and have put up the flight costs by a couple of quid (£71 inc card charg of 3 quid)! still thats not bad what i think they do is start cheap then slowly raise the price as seats get booked up i'm wondering how many London.pm are going to be on this flight shit i just had a thought, do easy jet serve drinks? do they? please say they do? *panic starts to set in* ;-) There is a semi-decent bar at Gatwick airport anyhow .. we can even stand outside the business lounge and wave in at Dave Cross who will be stroking his gold plated cat and enjoying a gimlet -- Greg McCarrollhttp://217.34.97.146/~gem/
Re: (Open|Net)BSD local root exploit
Now imagine a big field, with a treasure chest in the middle of it - this is your security. Now, imagine the chest is buried in the field, and no-one saw me bury it. This is my security. Snip enormous security through obscurity tirade However, after playing Baldurs Gate 2 all weekend, I'm obliged to say that really if you have a priceless artifact that you don't want found, the trick is to give to a peasant, because no adventurer is going to go round killing every peasant in the land to find the one with the treasure. See also the way diamonds are transported around Hatton Garden (i.e. in people's pockets, not in securicor vans). -- Jonathan Peterson Technical Manager, Unified Ltd, 020 7383 6092 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: (Open|Net)BSD local root exploit
* Jonathan Peterson ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: Now imagine a big field, with a treasure chest in the middle of it - this is your security. Now, imagine the chest is buried in the field, and no-one saw me bury it. This is my security. Snip enormous security through obscurity tirade However, after playing Baldurs Gate 2 all weekend, I'm obliged to say that you should of let me know, and we could of played MP, the same goes for any other BG2 or freeciv (just for you *nix compulsives) players out there. -- Greg McCarrollhttp://217.34.97.146/~gem/
Re: YAPC::Europe: flights, hotels and minigolf.
we can even stand outside the business lounge and wave in at Dave Cross who will be stroking his gold plated cat and enjoying a gimlet Is this some SM reference? How does one enjoy a gimlet? Gouge it into the cat maybe -- Jonathan Peterson Technical Manager, Unified Ltd, 020 7383 6092 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: CMS frameworks
On Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 10:33:57AM +0100, Dave Hodgkinson wrote: Some guys out here in Brizzle want to do Yet Another CMS. Are there any frameworks out there they can plug together to make something plausible? I guess bits of the 2.0 slashcode do the job nicely, what with being TT based and all. If you're into XML and AxKit, I think that Matt Sergeant has made the stuff he uses for take23.org available. sound type=mailbox_rummage/ Ah yes, AxKit-NewsMaker. Available for download from: http://axkit.org/download/ I haven't actually looked at how easy it is to work with, but it'll probably require fairly good XML familiarity. -Dom -- | Semantico: creators of major online resources | | URL: http://www.semantico.com/ | | Tel: +44 (1273) 72 | | Address: 33 Bond St., Brighton, Sussex, BN1 1RD, UK. |
Re: YAPC::Europe
Paul Mison wrote: On 15/06/2001 at 09:17 +0100, Dean wrote: Are there any plans for a group of London PMer's to fly over together or is the whole thing going to be ad hoc? Not yet, no. (Oh, and what are the cheapest flights from London City? Living in skanky East London's got to be good for *something*.) I was hoping for a lovely cheap flight from London City to Amsterdam but VLM (who I can get cheap flight from) only fly to Rotterdam :( There are flights to Amsterdam from there but they're about 120 quid :( Will try and see if I can get cheapo flight through my contacts. Organising anything for London.pm once a year is enough. (Oh, did the pub evaluation sessions happen this week, or did I miss something?) No, I was really busy last week. Will try and do them this week. -- simon wistowwireless systems coder only second toughest
Re: early peek at a bit of fun
Greg McCarroll wrote: If i haven't got your CPAN id included in the list at the bottom please email me off list, i just skipped through the who's who very quickly getting a decent list of people who looked london.pm-ish to test it. But I have two modules up there at the moment ... File::Binary and Apache::Session::SharedMem so I should at least 3= :( /me pouts -- simon wistowwireless systems coder only second toughest
Re: Government Websites
On Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 09:59:52AM +0100, Cross David - dcross wrote: Tired of government websites that only cater for browsers with non-standard proprietary extensions (cf http://www.gateway.gov.uk. Don't jsut sit there complaining - do something positive about it! http://jobs.guardian.co.uk/Browse/Fulltextjob/0,1755,100124337,00.html An understanding of HTML and applications such as Dreamweaver, Photoshop, Fireworks, Flash, Perl, JavaScript, ASP and XML is essential, as is the ability to see the web through users' eyes How many errors in one paragraph! 1) Interesting, Perl is now an application as are all the others. 2) Oh, yea, make your designers code and your coders design, that'll make for a good site - honest. 3) see the web through users' eyes - easy, they can't all see it - does that mean you don't have to do anything ? :) Leo
Re: (Open|Net)BSD local root exploit
Jonathan Peterson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Now imagine a big field, with a treasure chest in the middle of it - this is your security. Now, imagine the chest is buried in the field, and no-one saw me bury it. This is my security. Snip enormous security through obscurity tirade However, after playing Baldurs Gate 2 all weekend, I'm obliged to say that really if you have a priceless artifact that you don't want found, the trick is to give to a peasant, because no adventurer is going to go round killing every peasant in the land to find the one with the treasure. See also the way diamonds are transported around Hatton Garden (i.e. in people's pockets, not in securicor vans). Don't remind me. I used to work in Hatton Gardenm, and bought Gill's engagement ring there. Well, that's not quite true, I bought the *pieces* of Gill's engagement ring there. Which is a story in itself that I'll tell at a London.pm social evening one time. The scariest bit was handing over £400 or so worth of gem + gold to the bloke who was going to turn it into a real ring. A bloke who I had never met before that moment. Who was going to do the work for 15 quid. And he looked surprised when I asked for a receipt. -- Piers Cawley www.iterative-software.com
Re: Government Websites
Leo Lapworth wrote: 2) Oh, yea, make your designers code and your coders design, that'll make for a good site - honest. Though if the designers have some idea of what is and what isn't possible/easy to implement, maybe we wouldn't have so many image roll-overs, blank one-pixel GIFs, tables within tables withing tables, etc. 3) see the web through users' eyes - easy, they can't all see it - does that mean you don't have to do anything ? Users will say: I don't have Flash and don't want to download it. Therefore, I should leave out the Flash bits of the site. Users will say: I read that JavaScript can expose security holes, so I'll turn it off. Therefore, I will make all my navigation work without JavaScript turned on. Sounds like a good idea to me so far. Cheers, philip -- Philip Newton [EMAIL PROTECTED] All opinions are my own, not my employer's. If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
RE: early peek at a bit of fun
On 18/06/2001 at 09:02 +0100, Cross David - dcross wrote: (I suppose Simon Cozens had him beat while he was in Japan, but was he part of London.pm then? I think he is now.) Last I heard, we had at least one subscriber currently living in Australia. Leon, how about a london.pm world map :) Combine it with the (sadly mythical) IP2LL and it'd be easy. -- :: paul :: 'aggressive is a big M - and the misses generally :: don't survive aeroplane crashes.' dadadodo
Re: CMS frameworks
Dave Hodgkinson wrote: Steve Mynott [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Dave Hodgkinson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Any other offers? http://scoop.kuro5hin.org/ Why do all these things have to look like Slashdot? It that now the ONLY metaphor for these things. I know Nielsen would approve of the familiarity part but... 'cos they're all based on the Slash code? Which isn't all that amenable to total reskinning. -- simon wistowwireless systems coder only second toughest
Re: YAPC::Europe
Simon Wistow wrote: [Rotterdam] There are flights to Amsterdam from there but they're about 120 quid :( So take the train? Only takes an hour with the IC, and it's probably cheaper than flying on such a short distance. You can even go straight to Diemen Zuid if you're going to the conference first (and it's closer to the hotel as well); change at Leiden Centraal or at Schiphol(Airport). Still only 1:02 or 1:12, depending on your connection. (Although you'd have to get to Rotterdam Centraal from the airport, I admit.) Cheers, Philip -- Philip Newton [EMAIL PROTECTED] All opinions are my own, not my employer's. If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
Re: early peek at a bit of fun
Paul Mison wrote: On 18/06/2001 at 09:02 +0100, Cross David - dcross wrote: (I suppose Simon Cozens had him beat while he was in Japan, but was he part of London.pm then? I think he is now.) Last I heard, we had at least one subscriber currently living in Australia. Leon, how about a london.pm world map :) Combine it with the (sadly mythical) IP2LL and it'd be easy. There are modules out there for doing IP2LL http://www-unix.mcs.anl.gov/~olson/IPtoLL.html/ and http://www.caida.org/tools/utilities/netgeo/ But it just isn't all guaranteed to be accurate for various reasons. Getting, say 70% accuracy isn't taht hard, the next 20% is very hard, the next 10% after that is nigh on impossible. other links http://www-pablo.cs.uiuc.edu/Project/VR/ip2ll/faq.htm http://www.twoshortplanks.com/simon/ip2ll/ http://www-unix.mcs.anl.gov/~laszewsk/java/doc1/api/org.globus.applications.mapper.GeographicalLocator.html -- simon wistowwireless systems coder only second toughest
Re: early peek at a bit of fun
On Fri, 15 Jun 2001 21:39:31 +0100, Greg McCarroll wrote: If i haven't got your CPAN id included in the list at the bottom please email me off list, i just skipped through the who's who very quickly getting a decent list of people who looked london.pm-ish to test it. Please include PMH on that list. Thanks -- Peter Haworth [EMAIL PROTECTED] Everyone is a genius. It's just that some people are too stupid to realize it.
Re: early peek at a bit of fun
On Mon, 18 Jun 2001 10:58:09 +0100, Peter Haworth wrote: On Fri, 15 Jun 2001 21:39:31 +0100, Greg McCarroll wrote: If i haven't got your CPAN id included in the list at the bottom please email me off list, i just skipped through the who's who very quickly getting a decent list of people who looked london.pm-ish to test it. Please include PMH on that list. Thanks Damn, damn and thrice, damn! This was, of course, supposed to be off-list. Incidentally, I sent a request to the modules list over a week ago, and I haven't had any response yet, nor is my module in the list. I'm sure it was quicker for the other two requests I submitted. -- Peter Haworth [EMAIL PROTECTED] If we do not hang together, we shall surely all hang separately.
Re: early peek at a bit of fun
Simon Wistow sent the following bits through the ether: There are modules out there for doing IP2LL http://www.astray.com/Bath.pm/near.cgi even worked in Montreal. Fails for btinternet atm though... Leon -- Leon Brocard.http://www.astray.com/ Iterative Software...http://www.iterative-software.com/ ... Dyslexics of the world, untie!
Re: CMS frameworks
Simon Wistow sent the following bits through the ether: 'cos they're all based on the Slash code? Which isn't all that amenable to total reskinning. Oh look, that slashcode 2.0 uses Template Toolkit... Leon -- Leon Brocard.http://www.astray.com/ Iterative Software...http://www.iterative-software.com/ ... Did you know there's a guy living in our closet?
Re: (Open|Net)BSD local root exploit
On Mon, 18 Jun 2001, Jonathan Peterson wrote:
However, after playing Baldurs Gate 2 all weekend, I'm obliged to say that
really if you have a priceless artifact that you don't want found, the
trick is to give to a peasant, because no adventurer is going to go round
killing every peasant in the land to find the one with the treasure. See
That is unless you're Herod. Then Herod, when he saw that he had been
tricked by the wise men, was in a furious rage, and he sent and killed all
the male children in Bethlehem and in all that region who were two years
old or under, according to the time which he had ascertained from the wise
men.
I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit. That's the only
way to be sure.
Later.
Mark.
--
s'' Mark Fowler London.pm Bath.pm
http://www.twoshortplanks.com/ [EMAIL PROTECTED]
';use Term'Cap;$t=Tgetent Term'Cap{};print$t-Tputs(cl);for$w(split/ +/
){for(0..30){$|=print$t-Tgoto(cm,$_,$y). $w;select$k,$k,$k,.03}$y+=2}
Re: early peek at a bit of fun
On Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 10:35:08AM +0100, Paul Mison wrote: On 18/06/2001 at 09:02 +0100, Cross David - dcross wrote: Last I heard, we had at least one subscriber currently living in Australia. Leon, how about a london.pm world map :) Combine it with the (sadly mythical) IP2LL and it'd be easy. Just require that to join london.pm you must have a LOC record in your DNS. Ah hell, let's require HINFO as well. -- David Cantrell | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david/ Good advice is always certain to be ignored, but that's no reason not to give it-- Agatha Christie
Re: early peek at a bit of fun
On Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 12:11:50PM +0100, David Cantrell wrote: I must have imagined London.pm. Thank God! It was all a horrible, horrible dream!!! Alex -- Four pints of milk, a turkey baster and some plastic tubing, that's all you need. http://www.cpio.org/~grimoire http://www.livejournal.com/users/diffrentcolours
Re: early peek at a bit of fun
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], David Cantrell [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Eh-hem. Apparently my nearest five groups are Belfast, SouthWales, Glasgow, Bathgate and Manchester. I couldn't tell, sorry. Use the map instead. Waah, it hates me! -- rob partington % [EMAIL PROTECTED] % http://lynx.browser.org/
Re: e-smith
On Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 12:12:33PM +0100, Cross David - dcross wrote: Tangentially on-topic for this list because of skud's involvement... What is this 'topic' of which you speak? I see that the new edtion of Linux Format comes with a copy of e-smith on the CD. According to the blurb, e-smith is a complete, easy to use and install server/gateway system that manages mail, firewalling, file-sharing, prinintg - everything you need from your server. Bleah. -- David Cantrell | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david/ Good advice is always certain to be ignored, but that's no reason not to give it-- Agatha Christie
Re: Government Websites
On Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 11:41:57AM +0200, Philip Newton wrote: Users will say: I don't have Flash and don't want to download it. Therefore, I should leave out the Flash bits of the site. Users will say: I read that JavaScript can expose security holes, so I'll turn it off. Therefore, I will make all my navigation work without JavaScript turned on. Sounds like a good idea to me so far. Users will say: Ooh! Shiny!. R
Re: Government Websites
Roger Burton West wrote: Users will say: Ooh! Shiny!. You need to get some better users. Cheers, philip -- Philip Newton [EMAIL PROTECTED] All opinions are my own, not my employer's. If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
Re: e-smith
David Cantrell wrote: On Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 12:12:33PM +0100, Cross David - dcross wrote: Tangentially on-topic for this list because of skud's involvement... What is this 'topic' of which you speak? Something matching /^[fyreub ]+\z/i, I think. Cheers, Philip -- Philip Newton [EMAIL PROTECTED] All opinions are my own, not my employer's. If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
Re: Government Websites
- Original Message - From: Philip Newton [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, June 18, 2001 1:11 PM Subject: Re: Government Websites Roger Burton West wrote: Users will say: Ooh! Shiny!. You need to get some better users. That could be a viable business opportunity. A site where businesses could rent quality users for their software/websites etc. :-)
Re: (Open|Net)BSD local root exploit
On Mon, 18 Jun 2001, Mark Fowler wrote: On Mon, 18 Jun 2001, Jonathan Peterson wrote: However, after playing Baldurs Gate 2 all weekend, I'm obliged to say that really if you have a priceless artifact that you don't want found, the trick is to give to a peasant, because no adventurer is going to go round killing every peasant in the land to find the one with the treasure. See That is unless you're Herod. Then Herod, when he saw that he had been tricked by the wise men, was in a furious rage, and he sent and killed all the male children in Bethlehem and in all that region who were two years old or under, according to the time which he had ascertained from the wise men. I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit. That's the only way to be sure. I play Herod in a school play once. Go figure. L. Mmm, caffeine...
Re: www.gateway.gov.uk
On Jun 17, David Cantrell wrote: Out of interest, does anyone know if it's done in-house or contracted out? (I strongly suspect the latter) The latter. Via EDS and Microsoft, I believe. *shudder* EDS. That explains it then! This incompetence is further manifested in their choice of platform. even if I *could* use it, I wouldn't use it anyway, as I do not have sufficient confidence in the integrity of the server for such important information as my (eg) medical and tax data. Err, why? What do you know about its implementation as opposed to any other government website? david@lapdog:~$ HEAD http://www.gateway.gov.uk|grep ^Server Server: Microsoft-IIS/5.0 That, and EDS and Microsoft being involved. Ah, so primarily blind bigotism then. Note that whilst other government sites may suffer from the same problems, What problems? Other than the people behind it you've not mentioned any. -- | Mark Hynes [EMAIL PROTECTED] | | What are you trying to incinerate? |
Re: early peek at a bit of fun
On Mon, 18 Jun 2001, Alex Page wrote: On Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 12:11:50PM +0100, David Cantrell wrote: I must have imagined London.pm. Thank God! It was all a horrible, horrible dream!!! Yeah, well at least you all didn't dream about that guy with the cheese... L. Speako.
Re: (Open|Net)BSD local root exploit
On Mon, 18 Jun 2001, Lucy McWilliam wrote: However, after playing Baldurs Gate 2 all weekend, I'm obliged to say that really if you have a priceless artifact that you don't want found, the trick is to give to a peasant, because no adventurer is going to go round killing every peasant in the land to find the one with the treasure. See That is unless you're Herod. I play Herod in a school play once. Go figure. Aargh...played. Maybe I should go and imbibe some of that caffeine stuff. L. Mmm, caffeine...
Re: (Open|Net)BSD local root exploit
* Lucy McWilliam ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: I play Herod in a school play once. Go figure. Aargh...played. Maybe I should go and imbibe some of that caffeine stuff. For what its worth I saw nothing wrong with your original message. -- Greg McCarrollhttp://217.34.97.146/~gem/
Re: www.gateway.gov.uk
On Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 02:00:32PM +0100, Mark Hynes wrote: On Jun 17, David Cantrell wrote: david@lapdog:~$ HEAD http://www.gateway.gov.uk|grep ^Server Server: Microsoft-IIS/5.0 That, and EDS and Microsoft being involved. Ah, so primarily blind bigotism then. No, they're using software with a poor reputation, and having the site developed in conjunction with two companies with a poor reputation. -- David Cantrell | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david/ Good advice is always certain to be ignored, but that's no reason not to give it-- Agatha Christie
Re: early peek at a bit of fun
On Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 08:33:11AM +0200, Philip Newton wrote: Who holds the distance record? dha, presumably? Me Andy M. probably, living on the left coast. Paul
Re: early peek at a bit of fun
Paul Makepeace wrote: On Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 08:33:11AM +0200, Philip Newton wrote: Who holds the distance record? dha, presumably? Me Andy M. probably, living on the left coast. You forgot Damian (as had I). Cheers, Philip -- Philip Newton [EMAIL PROTECTED] All opinions are my own, not my employer's. If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
Re: Templating Solutions
On Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 04:36:00PM +0100, Greg McCarroll wrote: In a moment of stupidity[1] I agreed to write an article for lathos on templating solutions for Perl. This was an attempt to finally break my writing block/issues/mindset problems. It is going to be a compare and contrast article and so far I've looked at, Template Toolkit HTML::Mason Text::Template HTML::Template HTML::Embperl First, are there any others that I should look at? Also I'd really like any objective input people have about templating with these modules. It is important to me to try and not just get the article done and dusted, but for once to write a piece of text that I am happy with. Very simple, but what I've done in the past is simply read in a file and do something like: $text =~ s/\$(\w+)/$1/eeg; Which substitutes any perl vars in the file for stuff in your current program. Not very pretty, but cheap and easy. -Dom -- | Semantico: creators of major online resources | | URL: http://www.semantico.com/ | | Tel: +44 (1273) 72 | | Address: 33 Bond St., Brighton, Sussex, BN1 1RD, UK. |
Re: Templating Solutions
Greg, I did this (just for TT2 and HTML::Template) for torrington, results (REALLY badly formatted *blushes to admit it was done in word and saved to HTML*) can be seen at: http://torrington.cuckoo.org/template_systems.shtml No (c) on it.. so feel free to hack and copy as you will. Hope it's of some use, obviously it's aimed at a specific audience, e.g. the Agency and trying to get them to move from HTML::Template to TT2 (personally I think that's why they went under - not using TT, but it's just my consipricy theory) :) I'd also like to mention HTML::Mason - Euuu, No, no and thrice no! (ok, has some nice 'bits' but NO - thou shalt not put thy HTML and thy Perl in the same file). Leo On Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 04:36:00PM +0100, Greg McCarroll wrote: In a moment of stupidity[1] I agreed to write an article for lathos on templating solutions for Perl.
Re: Templating Solutions
Greg McCarroll sent the following bits through the ether: In a moment of stupidity[1] Fool. There are at least 30 other Perl templating systems. See the templating systems benchmark last week on the mod_perl list for example. Perrin Harkins is presenting Choosing a Templating System at oscon, so you could at least ask him for his list... Leon ps speed isn't important -- Leon Brocard.http://www.astray.com/ Iterative Software...http://www.iterative-software.com/ ... If I were you, who'd be me?
Re: Templating Solutions
At 04:36 PM 6/18/01 +0100, Greg wrote: In a moment of stupidity[1] I agreed to write an article for lathos on templating solutions for Perl. This was an attempt to finally break my writing block/issues/mindset problems. It is going to be a compare and contrast article and so far I've looked at, [list of CPAN templating modules] I'm sure many of us have written and used home grown templating systems such a simple regex over a basic template. It may be a good idea to compare the templating systems available on CPAN to a home grown one. What advantages they give and what are the disadvantages etc Rob
Re: Templating Solutions
Oi, Rob, What's this, Home grown (and not smokable), I left Emap too early if your not a TT2 convert yet. We can 'do lunch' later this week and I'll bash you with some TT2 docs or something :) Leo On Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 04:57:17PM +0100, Robert Price wrote: It may be a good idea to compare the templating systems available on CPAN to a home grown one. What advantages they give and what are the disadvantages etc
Re: Templating Solutions
Greg McCarroll [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Template Toolkit HTML::Mason Text::Template HTML::Template HTML::Embperl Also Apache::ASP searching for template on CPAN also gets quite a lot of hits... -- 1024/D9C69DF9 steve mynott [EMAIL PROTECTED] travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness. -- mark twain
Re: YAPC::Europe
Quoting Simon Wistow ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): I was hoping for a lovely cheap flight from London City to Amsterdam but VLM (who I can get cheap flight from) only fly to Rotterdam :( So? There are flights to Amsterdam from there but they're about 120 quid :( Will try and see if I can get cheapo flight through my contacts. Rotterdam is my favourite airport to fly to in Holland, together with Maastricht. It will take you about 4 minutes to get from your plane seat to your taxi seat. No kidding. 1 minute to walk to the building, 1 minute queuing with the other 20 passengers for the two customs officials, 1 minute waiting for your bag, 1 minute walking to your taxi. It will cost you 15 guilders (less then 5 pounds) to get to the central station with a taxi in 5 minutes, then about 30 guilders (less then 10 pounds) to get to Amsterdam in 1 hour. (45 minutes and you will be passing Schiphol airport). I will bet you that the moment you pass Schiphol, the people that landed at the same time are still walking to their luggage, for which they will have to wait another half hour. If it arrived there, and didn't send to Timbuktu. Plus you don't have to sit between the stag|hen-party-goes-Amsterdam easyjet, or heaven forbid even worse London.pm, rabble. :-) I really like checing in as well, with 20 people on a flight it is the most relaxing thing ever, especially compared with the Easyjet approach of let's open the free-seating for all check-in 20 minutes before we close for these 400 people now. Or when we finish our nailpolish. Cheers, -- Merijn Broeren | Fact: GPRS does not work if the Mobile Station (your phone, Software Geek | that is) moves faster than 500 km/h. Tip: NEVER drive faster than 450 km/h if you are wapping while driving!
Re: Government Websites
Quoting Roger Burton West ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): Users will say: Ooh! Shiny!. Poing-poing-poing! -- Merijn Broeren | Fact: GPRS does not work if the Mobile Station (your phone, Software Geek | that is) moves faster than 500 km/h. Tip: NEVER drive faster than 450 km/h if you are wapping while driving!
Re: Templating Solutions
I like ePerl, comprised of Apache::ePerl Parse::ePerl It's a very simple does what it says on the tin way of embedding perl in any other (text) fine, plus it has low level access to what it does in it's parse routine. Handy in many situations, I find. No new versions since 1998 and none planned, so it's stable. Or dead, depending on your viewpoint. -- Jonathan Peterson Technical Manager, Unified Ltd, +44 (0)20 7383 6092 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Templating Solutions
On Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 04:36:00PM +0100, Greg McCarroll wrote: First, are there any others that I should look at? Also I'd really like any objective input people have about templating with these modules. It is important to me to try and not just get the article done and dusted, but for once to write a piece of text that I am happy with. Key distinction is: what sort of code is going into the page? Is it something fairly basic (H::T, T::T in some ways of using it) or something closer to actual perl? (In the latter case, of course, it is Evil, because it removes any possibility of separation of code and data - you might as well be writing PHP.) The main reason I prefer H::T to T::T is that H::T templates can be given to Dreamweaver monkeys to edit without my having to worry that they'll screw them up. Roger
Re: Templating Solutions
Simon Wilcox wrote: I avoided HTML::Embperl, HTML::Mason Apache::ASP because they all embed perl into the template which is a Bad Thing (tm). Why is that so evil? I'm willing to be enlightened here. Cheers, Philip -- Philip Newton [EMAIL PROTECTED] All opinions are my own, not my employer's. If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
Re: Templating Solutions
* at 18/06 17:21 +0100 Roger Burton West said: On Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 04:36:00PM +0100, Greg McCarroll wrote: The main reason I prefer H::T to T::T is that H::T templates can be given to Dreamweaver monkeys to edit without my having to worry that they'll screw them up. That is an important consideration although in my experience a taleneted dreamweaver mokey can screw up pretty much anything that isn't created by dreamweaver in the first place. struan
Re: Templating Solutions
* Philip Newton ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: Simon Wilcox wrote: I avoided HTML::Embperl, HTML::Mason Apache::ASP because they all embed perl into the template which is a Bad Thing (tm). Why is that so evil? i think it one of two schools of thought is your template a Template or a Rich Template by Rich Template i mean it has some programming language type structures such as loops i think, if i recall my limited research correctly, MJD talks about this in the pod for Text::Template under the section Philosophy Greg -- Greg McCarrollhttp://217.34.97.146/~gem/
Re: Templating Solutions
On Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 06:30:24PM +0200, Philip Newton wrote: Simon Wilcox wrote: I avoided HTML::Embperl, HTML::Mason Apache::ASP because they all embed perl into the template which is a Bad Thing (tm). Why is that so evil? I'm willing to be enlightened here. Mainly maintainability. In the same way as it's evil to mix two types of language - Perl and SQL, although people seem to be a lot more prepared to do this :-( The point is that if you are embedding perl, there are too many places that things can be changed. It is possible to write embedded perl templates well, but a lot more difficult than if they are separated out. MBM -- Matthew Byng-Maddick [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://colondot.net/
Re: Templating Solutions
On Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 05:39:11PM +0100, Matthew Byng-Maddick wrote: On Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 06:30:24PM +0200, Philip Newton wrote: Simon Wilcox wrote: I avoided HTML::Embperl, HTML::Mason Apache::ASP because they all embed perl into the template which is a Bad Thing (tm). Why is that so evil? I'm willing to be enlightened here. Mainly maintainability. In the same way as it's evil to mix two types of language - Perl and SQL, although people seem to be a lot more prepared to do this :-( The point is that if you are embedding perl, there are too many places that things can be changed. It is possible to write embedded perl templates well, but a lot more difficult than if they are separated out. Most of the Java thingies that I've looked at start talking about MVC at this point as a good solution to the problem. But I don't know anything about that, and I would love somebody to explain it to me in nice perlisms. I'd love to have a decent solution to keeping lots of code out of the HTML files. At the moment, I'm thinking that it might just be simplest to move things over to AxKit taglibs... -Dom -- | Semantico: creators of major online resources | | URL: http://www.semantico.com/ | | Tel: +44 (1273) 72 | | Address: 33 Bond St., Brighton, Sussex, BN1 1RD, UK. |
Re: Templating Solutions
Leo Lapworth [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Oi, Rob, What's this, Home grown (and not smokable), I left Emap too early if your not a TT2 convert yet. We can 'do lunch' later this week and I'll bash you with some TT2 docs or something :) Oooh! Me too! -- Dave Hodgkinson, http://www.hodgkinson.org Editor-in-chief, The Highway Star http://www.deep-purple.com Interim CTO, web server farms, technical strategy
Re: Templating Solutions
On Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 06:30:24PM +0200, Philip Newton wrote: Simon Wilcox wrote: I avoided HTML::Embperl, HTML::Mason Apache::ASP because they all embed perl into the template which is a Bad Thing (tm). Why is that so evil? I'm willing to be enlightened here. Separation of code and data - or in this case, layout, content and logic. You can have multiple template files (say, for HTML, WAP, I-mode, and whatnot) while keeping a single, fairly simple program as the back-end (which doesn't need to know what sort of platform it's filling in a template for, just which template file to load). Roger
Re: (Open|Net)BSD local root exploit
On Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 09:38:44AM +0100, Jonathan Peterson wrote: However, after playing Baldurs Gate 2 all weekend, I'm obliged to say that really if you have a priceless artifact that you don't want found, the trick is to give to a peasant, because no adventurer is going to go round killing every peasant in the land to find the one with the treasure. See also the way diamonds are transported around Hatton Garden (i.e. in people's pockets, not in securicor vans). And if you have a rouge stone worth 1500 gold you shouldn't put it in a chicken while a shady guy is watching, since said shady guy might tell some feisty adventurers about it for a small fee. Especially if you live in Umar Hills. -- Niklas Nordebo -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- +447966251290 The day is seven hours and fifteen minutes old, and already it's crippled with the weight of my evasions, deceit, and downright lies
Re: Templating Solutions
Philip Newton wrote: Simon Wilcox wrote: I avoided HTML::Embperl, HTML::Mason Apache::ASP because they all embed perl into the template which is a Bad Thing (tm). Why is that so evil? I'm willing to be enlightened here. A couple of reasons. Separation of code presentation is good because it means that your designers can concentrate on the design html whilst your programmers concentrate on function. It helps if those not familiar with perl don't have to worry about it. They get a domain specific language that is easy to understand (TT2 scores well here because it hides the differences between scalars, arrays, hashes and object methods), and hopefully difficult for them to break. See this thread for Andy's take on this. http://www.template-toolkit.org/pipermail/templates/2001-June/001076.html Secondly, it helps with maintenance reusability if all your perl code is in one place, there's less to change and less chance of thiongs going wrong. This really helps when the PHBs come along and ask if you can redesign the pages for a particular client. Whilst this can be done if you've mixed up perl into your template it makes it much harder because there is a lot more for the designers to break (and let's not even mention asp/php/jsp :) Now I accept that if you are the sole programmer/developer/designer on a project then it maybe doesn't matter but I have found that it helps me to work in a separated way, so when they say, as they have, ah, we need the first two years in this table and the rest in that one it becomes a presentation issue and not a perl coding issue [1]. HTH, Simon. [1] It was really easy to do in a TT2 template as well !
Re: (Open|Net)BSD local root exploit
* Niklas Nordebo ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: On Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 09:38:44AM +0100, Jonathan Peterson wrote: However, after playing Baldurs Gate 2 all weekend, I'm obliged to say that really if you have a priceless artifact that you don't want found, the trick is to give to a peasant, because no adventurer is going to go round killing every peasant in the land to find the one with the treasure. See also the way diamonds are transported around Hatton Garden (i.e. in people's pockets, not in securicor vans). And if you have a rouge stone worth 1500 gold you shouldn't put it in a chicken while a shady guy is watching, since said shady guy might tell some feisty adventurers about it for a small fee. Especially if you live in Umar Hills. you know that game far to well! ;-) -- Greg McCarrollhttp://217.34.97.146/~gem/
Re: Government Websites
- Original Message - From: will [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, June 18, 2001 1:45 PM Subject: Re: Government Websites - Original Message - From: Philip Newton [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, June 18, 2001 1:11 PM Subject: Re: Government Websites Roger Burton West wrote: Users will say: Ooh! Shiny!. You need to get some better users. That could be a viable business opportunity. A site where businesses could rent quality users for their software/websites etc. :-) I just need something in the middle, I can find expert users that do what they are told and dont break the software, and then I can find complete idiots that can't even work out how to open the software when its the only icon on the desktop, its on the startbar and the quicklaunch bar, and in the program launcher thing on the task bar, and they still can't open it. I need to be able to rent an idiot who can get into the software but can't quite remember how to do tasks so that they click and select the wrong thing so they can break it and i can fix it again rather than doing it the way i do it which works fine. There just doesnt seem to be a happy medium any more. Idiots have got worse and the people in the know have got smarter. D
Re: early peek at a bit of fun
On Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 05:38:02PM +0200, Philip Newton wrote: Paul Makepeace wrote: On Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 08:33:11AM +0200, Philip Newton wrote: Who holds the distance record? dha, presumably? Me Andy M. probably, living on the left coast. You forgot Damian (as had I). I've never been able to keep track of jetsetting rockstars... Wasn't his Mayfair penthouse good enough? Paul -- Put in earplugs
Re: (Open|Net)BSD local root exploit
* Niklas Nordebo ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: On Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 06:11:39PM +0100, Greg McCarroll wrote: you know that game far to well! ;-) Probalby. While we're on the subject of computer games I recently found Civilization: Call to power on sale at HMV. Since I didn't like Civ 2 I'd been sceptical, but it was only five quid so I picked it up, and the let the box lie unopened for a couple of weeks, than I opened it and started playing last week and now I'm seriously addicted. you should play freeciv 64 bytes from 212.78.195.170: icmp_seq=2 ttl=236 time=3009.3 ms 64 bytes from 212.78.195.170: icmp_seq=3 ttl=236 time=3012.4 ms err maybe you shouldn't ;-) -- Greg McCarrollhttp://217.34.97.146/~gem/
Re: e-smith
On Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 12:56:15PM +0100, David Cantrell wrote: On Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 12:12:33PM +0100, Cross David - dcross wrote: I see that the new edtion of Linux Format comes with a copy of e-smith on the CD. According to the blurb, e-smith is a complete, easy to use and install server/gateway system that manages mail, firewalling, file-sharing, prinintg - everything you need from your server. Bleah. Whilst it might not be what you're looking for, it is what any number of small business are crying out for (even if they don't know it yet grin). Now personally I'd rather hand build a box using FreeBSD but I can appreciate someone having a go at producing a 'packaged' solution. Once I have a spare box, I'll probably give e-smith a looksie, just to see if it can teach me anything. Neil. -- Neil C. Ford Managing Director, Yet Another Computer Solutions Company Limited [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.yacsc.com
Re: e-smith
On Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 12:12:33PM +0100, Cross David - dcross wrote: I see that the new edtion of Linux Format comes with a copy of e-smith on the CD. According to the blurb, e-smith is a complete, easy to use and install server/gateway system that manages mail, firewalling, file-sharing, prinintg - everything you need from your server. Friend of mine recently launched http://www.rocksteady.com/ Paul
Re: Templating Solutions
On Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 04:46:25PM +0100, Leo Lapworth wrote: I'd also like to mention HTML::Mason - Euuu, No, no and thrice no! (ok, has some nice 'bits' but NO - thou shalt not put thy HTML and thy Perl in the same file). It is NOT POSSIBLE to completely divorce presentation/application. So you end up with all sorts of languages made up to be mixed in with the presentation - like PHP and the mini-language of TT. Why are those OK (I'm thinking specifically of TT - we all know PHP sucks for other reasons) but plain ol' perl isn't? -- David Cantrell | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david/ Good advice is always certain to be ignored, but that's no reason not to give it-- Agatha Christie
Re: Templating Solutions
On Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 07:54:36PM +0100, David Cantrell wrote: It is NOT POSSIBLE to completely divorce presentation/application. You're missing a word from the end of the sentence, and that's Ilogic. If you add it you're obviously wrong though... So you end up with all sorts of languages made up to be mixed in with the presentation - like PHP and the mini-language of TT. Why are those OK (I'm thinking specifically of TT - we all know PHP sucks for other reasons) but plain ol' perl isn't? TT's toy language is a presentation language, not a programming one. It's different enough so that you can't easily put too much programming logic into it, IME at least. -- Richard Clamp [EMAIL PROTECTED] so we've got a deadline. we can do deadlines.
Re: Templating Solutions
On 18 Jun 2001, Steve Mynott wrote: Greg McCarroll [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Template Toolkit HTML::Mason Text::Template HTML::Template HTML::Embperl Also Apache::ASP I did have this crackhead idea a week or two ago about making something that 'Compiled' HTML to modules with something like a DOM interface (much like the thing with Enhydra does ) - this of course would not really be Templating but something more like manipulating the HTML directly through method calls ... I wont bore you with the code as its not at all finished. /J\
Re: e-smith
On Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 04:29:31PM +0100, Neil Ford wrote: Once I have a spare box, I'll probably give e-smith a looksie, just to see if it can teach me anything. Well, I can tell you now, from experience that the blackcat power cycler works wonders, because I remembered (too late) that ipfw's default behaviour is deny ip from any to any. So something that does the firewalling can definitely be a good idea. :-) MBM -- Matthew Byng-Maddick [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://colondot.net/
Re: Templating Solutions
On Mon, 18 Jun 2001, Roger Burton West wrote: On Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 06:30:24PM +0200, Philip Newton wrote: Simon Wilcox wrote: I avoided HTML::Embperl, HTML::Mason Apache::ASP because they all embed perl into the template which is a Bad Thing (tm). Why is that so evil? I'm willing to be enlightened here. Separation of code and data - or in this case, layout, content and logic. As a reference for this kind of thing one might ( if one can be arsed to look at Java stuff ) to look at the way the Enhydra thingy does things in creating classes in directories like : business data presentation resources /J\
Re: Templating Solutions
On Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 07:54:36PM +0100, David Cantrell wrote: On Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 04:46:25PM +0100, Leo Lapworth wrote: I'd also like to mention HTML::Mason - Euuu, No, no and thrice no! (ok, has some nice 'bits' but NO - thou shalt not put thy HTML and thy Perl in the same file). It is NOT POSSIBLE to completely divorce presentation/application. So you end up with all sorts of languages made up to be mixed in with the presentation - like PHP and the mini-language of TT. Why are those OK (I'm thinking specifically of TT - we all know PHP sucks for other reasons) but plain ol' perl isn't? Ohmigod, I'm agreeing with Cantrell on something!! Despite having written an embedded perl templating system, I'm now very much in favour of one where the tags are just delimiters as far as possible. Thus I think things like HTML::Template are actually better than TT2, precisely because the toy language in TT2 is just as bad as embedding code. See my point about SQL, as it's related to this. MBM -- Matthew Byng-Maddick [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://colondot.net/
Re: Maths Problem
On Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 07:29:28AM +0100, Roger Burton West wrote: On Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 12:01:05AM +0100, Chris Benson wrote: Mmmm, so if there are 3 water lilies with circular leaves, what is the largest they can grow on the surface of a sphere without overlap? Looks like evenly-spaced around the equator. With only three points, they'll _have_ to be coplanar by definition. And, of course, a belt of n points around the equator is even spacing, but doesn't look good... But that limits the diameter of each to 1/3 the circumference ... I was sort of thinking that you'd get a larger area by offsetting them O O O , that doesn't really cut it does it? I'm going off to cut out some circles and look for a ball ... -- Chris Benson
Re: Maths Problem
On Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 11:56:59AM +0100, David Cantrell wrote: On Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 08:29:18AM +0200, Philip Newton wrote: Chris Benson wrote: Mmmm, so if there are 3 water lilies with circular leaves, what is the largest they can grow on the surface of a sphere without Well, first off, the circles won't be circles as we know them since they're not 2D circles but have a 3D component (or they wouldn't be on the surface of the sphere but rather cutting a slice through it). Leaves aren't that strong -- they'd flop into curve to fit the sphere :-) However, I'd imagine that with three such bulgy circles, the best you can do is space them equally around the equator. Yes. However you arrange them they're going to be on a plane, and so to have them the maximum distance apart you make sure the plane also contains the centre of the sphere. It gets interesting for N3 I thought N=4 was the easy one: points of a tetrahedron! -- Chris Benson
Re: e-smith
In lists.community.perlmongers.london, you wrote: On Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 12:12:33PM +0100, Cross David - dcross wrote: I see that the new edtion of Linux Format comes with a copy of e-smith on the CD. According to the blurb, e-smith is a complete, easy to use and install server/gateway system that manages mail, firewalling, file-sharing, prinintg - everything you need from your server. Friend of mine recently launched http://www.rocksteady.com/ I only just got on this list, and should probably check the archives, but I wanted to chime in for e-smith. I work for them, and I chose to work for them because they have a bloody nice product. It's a slick little distro, built on lots of Perl, and it's extensible and modular and geek-friendly under the hood, in ways that most server appliances or similar distros aren't. I use it for my home network, and I'm slowly converting lots of my geek friends to it, and they seem to be pretty happy. The point is: if you don't have to spend a day figuring out how to set up your cable modem, you have more time to hack on whatever it is that actually floats your boat... in my case, Perl stuff. (If setting up cable modems under Linux *is* what floats your boat, then more power to you, but this is not the case for most people.) I'm speaking about it at YAPC::Europe but would also be happy to answer any questions that anyone might have either on-list or privately. K. -- Kirrily 'Skud' Robert - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://infotrope.net/ Reality is for those who can't face Science Fiction.
Re: Templating Solutions
On Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 08:24:13PM +0100, Matthew Byng-Maddick wrote: On Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 07:54:36PM +0100, David Cantrell wrote: On Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 04:46:25PM +0100, Leo Lapworth wrote: I'd also like to mention HTML::Mason - Euuu, No, no and thrice no! (ok, has some nice 'bits' but NO - thou shalt not put thy HTML and thy Perl in the same file). It is NOT POSSIBLE to completely divorce presentation/application. So you end up with all sorts of languages made up to be mixed in with the presentation - like PHP and the mini-language of TT. Why are those OK (I'm thinking specifically of TT - we all know PHP sucks for other reasons) but plain ol' perl isn't? Ohmigod, I'm agreeing with Cantrell on something!! What am I doing wrong? ;-) Seriously, I agree 100% that you should strive to seperate application from your presentation as much as possible, but seeing that you can not do this entirely, you may as well embed perl in your HTML and save yourself the trouble of inventing a whole new wheel. You can still stick your business logic elsewhere and have that called by the perl embedded in the templates. Despite having written an embedded perl templating system, I'm now very much in favour of one where the tags are just delimiters as far as possible. Thus I think things like HTML::Template are actually better than TT2, precisely because the toy language in TT2 is just as bad as embedding code. See my point about SQL, as it's related to this. Think of SQL as being a cross-language extension to the 'host' language and you'll feel much better about it :-) -- David Cantrell | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david/ Good advice is always certain to be ignored, but that's no reason not to give it-- Agatha Christie
Re: early peek at a bit of fun
On Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 11:06:40PM +0100, Greg McCarroll wrote: if dha supplies me with a list of cpan ID's and names for NY i'll do a similar page of NY and include the % of each on both pages I'll have to go through the CPAN and see who of our group has IDs. Of course, there are all those non-london, non-ny mongers who are on the NY.pm list... dha, wondering if he gets any credit for Semi::Semicolons or DWIM... -- David H. Adler - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.panix.com/~dha/ Free Randal Schwartz! http://www.rahul.net/jeffrey/ovs/ (ok, maybe not free, but competitively priced!)
Re: early peek at a bit of fun
On Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 09:02:01AM +0100, Cross David - dcross wrote: From: Philip Newton [EMAIL PROTECTED] Who holds the distance record? dha, presumably? Last I heard, we had at least one subscriber currently living in Australia. Leon, how about a london.pm world map :) Hm... I should probably work on a dha.pm map... Let's see, London, St. Louis, Melbourne... Hm. *that's* where all that email comes from! :-) dha -- David H. Adler - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.panix.com/~dha/ Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not tried it. - Donald Knuth
Re: Templating Solutions
Matthew Byng-Maddick wrote: It is possible to write embedded perl templates well, but a lot more difficult than if they are separated out. How does non-embedded Perl look like, then? Is Perl the outside layer and basically does '#include navbar.html' at certain points? Or is HTML the outside layer and does something like % require read-database.pl; read; %? Or what does it look like if they're *not* in the same file? I have next to no experience with separated code and data (yes, my SQL statements are also in my Perl source files); I've written toy CGI scripts (HTML embedded in Perl) and my day job at the moment includes StoryServer (Tcl embedded in HTML), so I don't think I have much idea of how something else would work. Explanations welcome. Cheers, Philip -- Philip Newton [EMAIL PROTECTED] All opinions are my own, not my employer's. If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
Re: checking your CPAN modules are up to date?
Elaine -HFB- Ashton [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Dave Hodgkinson [[EMAIL PROTECTED]] quoth: * *I can't find the incantation! Help! CPAN.pm has an autobundle feature that comes in handy for this. Make an autobundle then use it to update all the modules you like. http://www.cpan.org/misc/cpan-faq.html#How_installed_modules show the use of ExtUtils::Installed which I use quite a lot for such things and the question following it also shows how to use autobundle. Nope. It was much easier than that. It just iterated down the installed modules and checked them. -- Dave Hodgkinson, http://www.hodgkinson.org Editor-in-chief, The Highway Star http://www.deep-purple.com Interim CTO, web server farms, technical strategy
Re: www.gateway.gov.uk
On Jun 09, David Cantrell wrote: So yes, the only reason for not allowing me to use it is incompetence on the part of whichever civil 'servants' were in charge of implementing it. Out of interest, does anyone know if it's done in-house or contracted out? (I strongly suspect the latter) This incompetence is further manifested in their choice of platform. even if I *could* use it, I wouldn't use it anyway, as I do not have sufficient confidence in the integrity of the server for such important information as my (eg) medical and tax data. Err, why? What do you know about its implementation as opposed to any other government website? -- | Mark Hynes [EMAIL PROTECTED] | | What are you trying to incinerate? |
Re: www.gateway.gov.uk
On Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 12:49:50PM +0100, Mark Hynes wrote: On Jun 09, David Cantrell wrote: So yes, the only reason for not allowing me to use it is incompetence on the part of whichever civil 'servants' were in charge of implementing it. Out of interest, does anyone know if it's done in-house or contracted out? (I strongly suspect the latter) The latter. Via EDS and Microsoft, I believe. This incompetence is further manifested in their choice of platform. even if I *could* use it, I wouldn't use it anyway, as I do not have sufficient confidence in the integrity of the server for such important information as my (eg) medical and tax data. Err, why? What do you know about its implementation as opposed to any other government website? david@lapdog:~$ HEAD http://www.gateway.gov.uk|grep ^Server Server: Microsoft-IIS/5.0 That, and EDS and Microsoft being involved. Note that whilst other government sites may suffer from the same problems, they are only sources of information and not places where I would submit any information which I need to have kept confidential. -- David Cantrell | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david/ Good advice is always certain to be ignored, but that's no reason not to give it-- Agatha Christie
