Chris Heathcote [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
on 22/1/01 6:34 pm, Piers Cawley wrote:
One of the things that I love about the iterative approach of XP is
that during the process the client begins to learn exactly what she
wants, and is taught to express that by the team. The idea is to
On Tue, 23 Jan 2001, you wrote:
Heh. But if we're good at our job we can pull them through that.
uhh .. I have on occasion worked with clients that I reckon are the
exception to that rule ... some of them find lightswitches a technically
challenging problem.
I reckon the XP thing will work
On or about Tue, Jan 23, 2001 at 12:33:44PM +, Robin Szemeti typed:
there
is a whole class of clients so clueless (' I just want one of those
dot-com things') that you probably need another level of handholding ...
they discuss the artistic and 'feelgood' bits of the project in as
precise
Robin Houston [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
On Tue, Jan 23, 2001 at 12:49:45PM +, Roger Burton West wrote:
http://www.webreview.com/pub/2000/04/07/broken/index.html
Eh? I get a four-oh-four.
Did you mean
http://www.webreview.com/archives/broken/2000/04_07_00.shtml
I like this one:
On or about Tue, Jan 23, 2001 at 01:09:40PM +, Robin Houston typed:
Did you mean
http://www.webreview.com/archives/broken/2000/04_07_00.shtml
?
Yes. Been a while since I looked at that one.
R
Robin Szemeti [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
On Tue, 23 Jan 2001, you wrote:
Heh. But if we're good at our job we can pull them through that.
uhh .. I have on occasion worked with clients that I reckon are the
exception to that rule ... some of them find lightswitches a
technically
On Tue, 23 Jan 2001, you wrote:
I would say that part of the sales process should include weeding out
those kinds of clients. If it turns out that there aren't any we can
find with a clue, then the fun begins, but I'd like to think that the
market is large.
;)))
Dear Sirs,
Thank you for
On or about Sun, Jan 21, 2001 at 11:08:29PM +, Piers Cawley typed:
And if the Big Cheese does hand down decisions that override the
Minion then the contract between developer and client should stipulate
that the client pays for the wasted time.
Contracts _should_ say that the client pays
Roger claimed that:
This XP approach seems to require a lot more firmness
in customer relations than I've ever seen - and if that firmness were
present, we wouldn't need XP anyway...
One of the main problems with full disclosure with the client is that it
can only ever work when you've only
On Mon, 22 Jan 2001, Michael Stevens wrote:
On Mon, Jan 22, 2001 at 08:47:35AM +, Roger Burton West wrote:
Contracts _should_ say that the client pays for changes to what he
originally said he wanted. Sometimes they do. It's quite rare, in my
experience, for this payment actually to be
On Mon, 22 Jan 2001, Leon Brocard wrote:
Dave Mee sent the following bits through the ether:
One of the best solutions I've come accross to this problem is to take an
iterative approach to development.
Inded. Look at XP. The whole idea is that at the end of every day /
week you have
At Mon, 22 Jan 2001 10:42:46 +, Leon Brocard [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Dave Mee sent the following bits through the ether:
One of the best solutions I've come accross to this problem is to
take an
iterative approach to development.
Inded. Look at XP. The whole idea is that at the
Andy Wardley wrote:
Having said that, I do very little "real" work at work, instead
spending my time reading/writing email, chatting to people, playing
table tennis, having meetings, and doing other brain dead tasks.
I sometimes feel guilty because 90% of my work gets done in 10% of my
time.
On Mon, Jan 22, 2001 at 10:26:18AM +, James O'Sullivan wrote:
On Mon, 22 Jan 2001, Michael Stevens wrote:
On Mon, Jan 22, 2001 at 08:47:35AM +, Roger Burton West wrote:
Contracts _should_ say that the client pays for changes to what he
originally said he wanted. Sometimes they
Mark Fowler sent the following bits through the ether:
Two points:
Picky, picky. Fine. I'd say that of the bits I've tested, I've found
that continuous testing is a very important part. Writing the tests
before the code is cool too. But you know this already ;-)
Leon
--
Leon
So who's bankrolling the van and who wants to be BA?
Neil.
(whose tounge is ever so slightly on his cheek!)
--
Sorry, but I can't resist pointing out that this amusing misspelling. I
guess I'd pronounce this a bit like lounge. Tongue is a pretty stupid way to
spell it anyway, tung would be
Neil Ford wrote:
The "A-Team" - scenario is one in which a team goes in to rescue a failing
project, or go in and retune/redesign an existing project that works but has
become a victim of its own success. Think of this work as bespoke
enhancements.
That just has me conjering up images
Robin Szemeti [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
On Mon, 22 Jan 2001, you wrote:
Inded. Look at XP. The whole idea is that at the end of every day /
week you have changed something and can show it to the client
again. This way the client really understands what he really wants.
wow ... "a
Simon Wistow [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
I sometimes feel guilty because 90% of my work gets done in 10% of my
time.
There is in fact Pareto's Law which says that 80% of results come from
20% of work (or 10-90 or whatever the numbers don't really matter).
No need to feel guilty since this is
Mark Fowler [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
2. I first heard about building at the end of the day in Brooke's
Mythical Man Month.
Continuous integration and smoke testing. Oh yes.
--
Dave Hodgkinson, http://www.hodgkinson.org
Editor-in-chief, The Highway Star
Robin Szemeti [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
The overiding thing should be 'make this the very best company to work
for AND the very best company to have work done by' A1 bleeding edge code
written by the planets happiest programmers ... sounds like a good recipe
to me.
Not sure about the
Robin Szemeti [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
and this template toolit thing rocks dunnit .. (now I have the hang of it
.. sorta)
It is the rockingest thing I've rocked to since the last one.
--
Dave Hodgkinson, http://www.hodgkinson.org
Editor-in-chief, The Highway
Greg Cope [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Men in black theme - we must all have black suits - dark glasses
avliable from Macy D's soon, and we can get a clapped out van from BT
for next to nothing
Don't forget the welding gear.
Actually, I'm more for the Ghostbusters theme: boiler suits,
Simon Wistow [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
I sometimes feel guilty because 90% of my work gets done in 10% of my
time.
There is in fact Pareto's Law which says that 80% of results come from
20% of work (or 10-90 or whatever the numbers don't really matter).
Often, when I do something
There is in fact Pareto's Law which says that 80% of
results come from
20% of work (or 10-90 or whatever the numbers don't really matter).
Often, when I do something that I consider really easy and
spend little
effort on it, I get lots of really good feedback.
Glad I'm not the only
"James O'Sullivan" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
On Mon, 22 Jan 2001, Michael Stevens wrote:
On Mon, Jan 22, 2001 at 08:47:35AM +, Roger Burton West wrote:
Contracts _should_ say that the client pays for changes to what he
originally said he wanted. Sometimes they do. It's quite rare,
Michael Stevens [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
On Mon, Jan 22, 2001 at 10:26:18AM +, James O'Sullivan wrote:
On Mon, 22 Jan 2001, Michael Stevens wrote:
On Mon, Jan 22, 2001 at 08:47:35AM +, Roger Burton West wrote:
Contracts _should_ say that the client pays for changes to what he
Robin Szemeti [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
On Mon, 22 Jan 2001, you wrote:
Inded. Look at XP. The whole idea is that at the end of every day /
week you have changed something and can show it to the client
again. This way the client really understands what he really wants.
wow ... "a
What sort of work do you want to do? What sort of business do you seek?
Body shop, A-Team or bespoke software house?
This message generated a few threads: Working from home v office; pair
programming vs traditional project "individual portions"; and handling
client contact or involvement.
Robin Szemeti [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
On Sat, 20 Jan 2001, you wrote:
I don't see why you can't have a mix - it would be good to have a core
group of people who always (nearl) work in the office so that if you
usually work from home but need some face 2 face there will be people
David Cantrell [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
On Sat, Jan 20, 2001 at 12:24:24AM +, Piers Cawley wrote:
Now, I freely admit that I have partaken of the Extreme Programming
Kool-Aid, and dammit I want to do it.
I want to try it too. I'm not convinced by all of it - pair programming
for
Robin Szemeti [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
On Sat, 20 Jan 2001, you wrote:
One customer. On site. Full time. Absolute honesty. Get them on your
side. The are the people who are *paying* for this, they deserve
nothing but your honesty. Tell 'em about any problems and tell 'em
early. Tell
"Dean S Wilson" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
-Original Message-
From: Aaron Trevena [EMAIL PROTECTED]
I did a little pair programming at emap - I probably wasn't doing it
right
tho'. even so we did get thru the hard bits quicker and could split
up to
do the easy stuff. I think it
On Sun, 21 Jan 2001, you wrote:
I rush to point out that those stereotypes were *not* what I was on
about in my "I'm really unsure about telecommuting" thing. I'm one of
the gregarious types.
acknowledged ...
those 'stereotypes' where pretty extreme and I am sure there are other
issues on
On Sun, 21 Jan 2001, you wrote:
The client doesn;t send Big Chief to sit with the designers, instead
'designers' is kind of the wrong term with XP.
agreed
they send Useless Minion. UM is positive and helpful and gives quick
decisions ona whole variety of topics. And a week later
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED],
Piers Cawley [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
[snip]
And table football's no fun if you're playing with
yourself.
Maybe if you kept your hands on the table football...? gdr
--
rob partington % [EMAIL PROTECTED] % http://lynx.browser.org/
Roger Burton West [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
On Sat, Jan 20, 2001 at 12:24:24AM +, Piers Cawley wrote:
The vision I have is of a team (or teams) working in *our* premises,
with customers working with us.
(side-rant)
The customers _must_ be kept isolated from the developers. This is
IIRC, Sim City is one of Ken Livingstone's favorites.
There can't be the option to revoke all bird feed sellers permits.
On Sat, Jan 20, 2001 at 10:28:13AM +, Piers Cawley wrote:
One customer. On site. Full time. Absolute honesty.
Nice idea if you have customers who can take the truth, and who know
when to shut up and let people get on with things. I'd like to see
it working, but I haven't yet.
R
On Sat, Jan 20, 2001 at 12:24:24AM +, Piers Cawley wrote:
Now, I freely admit that I have partaken of the Extreme Programming
Kool-Aid, and dammit I want to do it.
I want to try it too. I'm not convinced by all of it - pair programming
for example - but so much of the other stuff seems
On Sat, 20 Jan 2001, you wrote:
I don't see why you can't have a mix - it would be good to have a core
group of people who always (nearl) work in the office so that if you
usually work from home but need some face 2 face there will be people
there (or in a pub nearby). things like IRC and
-Original Message-
From: Aaron Trevena [EMAIL PROTECTED]
I did a little pair programming at emap - I probably wasn't doing it
right
tho'. even so we did get thru the hard bits quicker and could split
up to
do the easy stuff. I think it made a difference but then I was mostly
being a
Piers Cawley wrote:
Greg Cope [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
David Cantrell wrote:
That should read there's too many distractions at home for me (or
you as the case may be).
I am about 150% more productive at home - 25 % because I save the
journey, and the other 25% due to
Robin Szemeti [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Client has no concept about what software development is like and within
a week or two cancels the entire thing 'some of those guys spent a whole
week working and half the time couldnt even get it to run, by the end of
the week all they'd done was
"Dean S Wilson" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
-Original Message-
From: Aaron Trevena [EMAIL PROTECTED]
I did a little pair programming at emap - I probably wasn't doing it
right
tho'. even so we did get thru the hard bits quicker and could split
up to
do the easy stuff. I think it
Dave Hodgkinson sent the following bits through the ether:
Leon, are you acting as scribe?
Yes. Don't expect a masterpiece though.
Leon
--
Leon Brocard.http://www.astray.com/
yapc::Europehttp://yapc.org/Europe/
... All new improved
* Greg Cope ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
Thats were a few people have gone wrong lately then ;-)
yup
--
Greg McCarroll http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net
Greg Cope [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Dave Hodgkinson wrote:
"Paul Makepeace" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
The US has much more to worry about than the UK, like high water tables,
vicious weather and earthquakes. The smart money goes on hosting in Texas
(San Antonio) not California
David Cantrell [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
And the UK doesn't have high water tables (in some places and not in others,
just like anywhere else) or vicious weather (again, in some places not in
others, just like anywhere else). But it strikes me as being absurd that I
hear EVERY YEAR of the
Dave Hodgkinson wrote:
Greg Cope [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Dave Hodgkinson wrote:
"Paul Makepeace" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
The US has much more to worry about than the UK, like high water tables,
vicious weather and earthquakes. The smart money goes on hosting in Texas
On Fri, Jan 19, 2001 at 09:42:11AM +, Greg McCarroll wrote:
yes and no. If you need to do an allnighter and its unavoidable (due to a
client suddenly changing ther mind) then theres no problem doing it ..
just charge em bigtime!
nope this is where your pimp/MD should of tied up the
David Cantrell [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
On Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 04:42:55PM +, Greg McCarroll wrote:
* Leo Lapworth ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
People (no particular order):
= Pimp = = Accountant =
= BOFH = = Security Guru =
David Cantrell [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
On Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 04:51:18PM +, Greg Cope wrote:
What about a bed / kip room and of course a play room - and I do not
mean some 70's swingers thing - a P2, etc ...
Having something to crash on when pulling an all-nighter is, IMO, a
Dave Hodgkinson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Greg Cope [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
IMHO developers should be given the environment that is what makes them
confotable, an IBM research center was on the telly the other day that
had a big open plan style area, as well as individaul offices, as
On Fri, Jan 19, 2001 at 10:32:16AM +, Michael Stevens wrote:
On Fri, Jan 19, 2001 at 09:42:11AM +, Greg McCarroll wrote:
yes and no. If you need to do an allnighter and its unavoidable (due to a
client suddenly changing ther mind) then theres no problem doing it ..
just charge
On 19 Jan 2001, Dave Hodgkinson wrote:
David Cantrell [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
And the UK doesn't have high water tables (in some places and not in others,
just like anywhere else) or vicious weather (again, in some places not in
others, just like anywhere else). But it strikes me as
* Michael Stevens ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
On Fri, Jan 19, 2001 at 10:32:16AM +, Michael Stevens wrote:
On Fri, Jan 19, 2001 at 09:42:11AM +, Greg McCarroll wrote:
yes and no. If you need to do an allnighter and its unavoidable (due to a
client suddenly changing ther mind)
From: Greg McCarroll [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
write a suggestions document of where the project management and
management functions are going wrong
if they ignore it leave
Do you know anywhere this has happened Greg? ;-)
Dave Hodgkinson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Piers Cawley [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Big monitors on workstations are *not* rewards. They are essential
tools for the job. Anything smaller than 19" is rapidly approaching
too cramped for serious work. TFT monitors on workstations are
Dave Hodgkinson sent the following bits through the ether:
Sounds like a table at the New World one lunchtime...
OK. We might as well do this quickly, how about Monday 12.30 at the
New World restaurant in Chinatown. Everyone who is vaguely interested
in a Perl Consultancy of some sort is
Dave Cross sent the following bits through the ether:
I'd love to come along, but probably wouldn't have time to get there
and back during lunch. Can we do it one evening?
OK, Penderel's Oak 6.30pm for those who can't make it to lunch. I'll
go to both and take notes.
Leon
--
Leon
Andy Wardley wrote:
On Jan 18, 4:28pm, Leo Lapworth wrote:
Ok, it's all a pipedream.. but what a nice one.
It sounds like an excellent idea. In fact, I've even got as far as
writing a (fledgling) business plan for such a venture based around
Template Toolkit-ish web development,
At 14:55 19/01/01, Neil Ford wrote:
Dave Hodgkinson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Mmmm... so, when are we going to have a meeting about all this?
Well seeing as I will be amongst the great unwashed from next week,
anytime soon would be good.
AOLMe too!/AOL
At 15:49 19/01/01, Dave Cross wrote:
I'd love to come along, but probably wouldn't have time to get there
and back during lunch. Can we do it one evening?
An evening would be better for me, too...
Natalie
Leon Brocard [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Dave Hodgkinson sent the following bits through the ether:
Sounds like a table at the New World one lunchtime...
OK. We might as well do this quickly, how about Monday 12.30 at the
New World restaurant in Chinatown. Everyone who is vaguely
On 19 Jan 2001, Piers Cawley wrote:
Put me down for that. Might bring Gill as well.
It seems like every tom dick and harry's other half is called Gill around
here :)
/J\
--
Jonathan Stowe |
http://www.gellyfish.com | I'm with Grep on this one
Piers Cawley wrote:
Greg Cope [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Andy Wardley wrote:
On Jan 18, 4:28pm, Leo Lapworth wrote:
Ok, it's all a pipedream.. but what a nice one.
It sounds like an excellent idea. In fact, I've even got as far as
writing a (fledgling) business plan for
On Fri, Jan 19, 2001 at 09:27:18AM +, Dave Hodgkinson wrote:
It should be mandatory for all public servants to be adept at Sim
City.
IIRC, Sim City is one of Ken Livingstone's favorites.
Alex
At 17:42 19/01/01, you wrote:
Piers Cawley wrote:
Greg Cope [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Agreed - why work in London - what about telecommuters ?
i.e I want to stay communtin to my desk - all 3 meters of it (the
commute - I live in a small flat)
I'm *really* unsure about
On Fri, 19 Jan 2001, you wrote:
But is treking into insert that good to working from home ? ADSL is
cheap and working from home can be supprisingly productive.
Where it's available. That would be 'not from my exchange in the
forseeable future...'
ISDN is cool .. and from this quarters
On Fri, 19 Jan 2001, you wrote:
I can do 200% as much work at home because I can work when and as I feel
able to and so work when I am my most productive.
well having spent the last year telecommuting I can affirm that it does
let you sometimes work at phenomeonal rates
But I also can see
On Fri, Jan 19, 2001 at 05:04:54PM +, Piers Cawley wrote:
I'm *really* unsure about telecommuting. Seems to me that the way to
really build a team (especially when doing serious development) is to
have people in the same room;
Plus there's too many distractions at home. Even if you live
Piers Cawley wrote:
Greg Cope [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Piers Cawley wrote:
Greg Cope [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Andy Wardley wrote:
On Jan 18, 4:28pm, Leo Lapworth wrote:
Ok, it's all a pipedream.. but what a nice one.
It sounds like an excellent
David Cantrell wrote:
On Fri, Jan 19, 2001 at 05:04:54PM +, Piers Cawley wrote:
I'm *really* unsure about telecommuting. Seems to me that the way to
really build a team (especially when doing serious development) is to
have people in the same room;
Plus there's too many
On Fri, 19 Jan 2001, you wrote:
That should read there's too many distractions at home for me (or
you as the case may be).
im with greg on this one :)
although I can see that some project would need 5 day a week attendance
at some stages I am not convinced that that is the only way to
* Leo Lapworth ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
People (no particular order):
==
= Pimp = = Accountant =
==
== =
= BOFH =
On Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 04:42:55PM +, Greg McCarroll wrote:
have to pay them back with interest and stuff.
equity surely? ;-)
Yes. But if you're successful the "interest" rate is huge ;)
But if you're not, well, they lose the money and not you.
FWIW It's much easier to negotiate with
Leo Lapworth wrote:
Location
A big pub in central London.
Top floors: development
Ground floor Pub: with comedy stand and terminal points for laptops
Basement: disco / conference room, big flat screens etc..
What about a bed / kip room and of course a
* Tony Bowden ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
On Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 04:42:55PM +, Greg McCarroll wrote:
have to pay them back with interest and stuff.
equity surely? ;-)
Yes. But if you're successful the "interest" rate is huge ;)
But if you're not, well, they lose the money and not
Neil So who's any good at business plans... (I have a book but)
I know a few things about setting up and running SMEs. Happy to sit down
for an hour or so one evening with someone if it would be of assistance.
Unfortunately, I'm far too tied up with current venture to get much more
Greg McCarroll wrote:
* Greg Cope ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
Leo Lapworth wrote:
Location
A big pub in central London.
Top floors: development
Ground floor Pub: with comedy stand and terminal points for laptops
Basement: disco / conference
On Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 04:51:18PM +, Greg Cope wrote:
What about a bed / kip room and of course a play room - and I do not
mean some 70's swingers thing - a P2, etc ...
Having something to crash on when pulling an all-nighter is, IMO, a bad
idea as it encourages pulling all-nighters.
"Paul Makepeace" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
The US has much more to worry about than the UK, like high water tables,
vicious weather and earthquakes. The smart money goes on hosting in Texas
(San Antonio) not California though -- relatively
earthquake/tornado/storm/etc-free!
You're talking
David Cantrell wrote:
On Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 04:51:18PM +, Greg Cope wrote:
What about a bed / kip room and of course a play room - and I do not
mean some 70's swingers thing - a P2, etc ...
Having something to crash on when pulling an all-nighter is, IMO, a bad
idea as it
Dave Hodgkinson wrote:
"Paul Makepeace" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
The US has much more to worry about than the UK, like high water tables,
vicious weather and earthquakes. The smart money goes on hosting in Texas
(San Antonio) not California though -- relatively
Robin Szemeti wrote:
On Thu, 18 Jan 2001, you wrote:
Having something to crash on when pulling an all-nighter is, IMO, a bad
idea as it encourages pulling all-nighters. You just don't write good
code at 2 in the morning, and end up spending just as much time untangling
it as you did
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