Re: O'Reilly Safari - anyone use it?

2001-05-22 Thread Piers Cawley

Dave Cross [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 At 23:30 21/05/2001, David H. Adler wrote:
 On Sun, May 20, 2001 at 08:28:24AM +0100, Dave Cross wrote:
  
   Don't think anyone writes technical books for money. If they do, then
   they're in for a big shock.
 
 ...and you can just imagine how much more true that is for editing
 technical books... :-)
 
 dha, used some of his editing money to buy a new guitar, though...
 
 ITYM used his editing money to buy some of a new guitar :)

Hey, maybe it's one of those cheapo 'made in China' jobs. Of course,
if it paid for a Martin or a Lowden or something else equally lovely,
then well done Mr Adler.

-- 
Piers Cawley
www.iterative-software.com




Re: O'Reilly Safari - anyone use it?

2001-05-22 Thread David H. Adler

On Tue, May 22, 2001 at 08:43:39AM +0100, Piers Cawley wrote:
 Dave Cross [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 
  At 23:30 21/05/2001, David H. Adler wrote:
  On Sun, May 20, 2001 at 08:28:24AM +0100, Dave Cross wrote:
   
Don't think anyone writes technical books for money. If they do, then
they're in for a big shock.
  
  ...and you can just imagine how much more true that is for editing
  technical books... :-)
  
  dha, used some of his editing money to buy a new guitar, though...
  
  ITYM used his editing money to buy some of a new guitar :)
 
 Hey, maybe it's one of those cheapo 'made in China' jobs. Of course,
 if it paid for a Martin or a Lowden or something else equally lovely,
 then well done Mr Adler.

Ah, I wish...

The truth is somewhere in between.  I got a Burns Marquee.  The reason I
was able to do so is that, although it's a perfectly good guitar, they
weren't selling.  When the price dropped by 75% (and I got informed
opinions telling me it was not just a piece of junk), I couldn't resist.
In fact, if one takes into account how much I saved, it actually
*increases* the amount I got paid. :-)

dha
-- 
David H. Adler - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.panix.com/~dha/
perl -e 'print Just another P$0-r-l hacker'



Re: O'Reilly Safari - anyone use it?

2001-05-22 Thread Robin Szemeti

On Tue, 22 May 2001, David H. Adler wrote:

  Hey, maybe it's one of those cheapo 'made in China' jobs. Of course,
  if it paid for a Martin or a Lowden or something else equally lovely,
  then well done Mr Adler.
 
 Ah, I wish...
 
 The truth is somewhere in between.  I got a Burns Marquee.  The reason I
 was able to do so is that, although it's a perfectly good guitar, they
 weren't selling.  

seen em .. not bad. I'd one day like a Patrick Eggle 'Berlin'  right now
I'm enjoying a cute little Steinberger headless  .. dirt cheap these
days and rather fun. :) Best of all its so small .. add in a Korg Pandora
2 personal effects/amp and you have the ultimate hotel room practice set
up.

-- 
Robin Szemeti   

Redpoint Consulting Limited
Real Solutions For A Virtual World 



Re: O'Reilly Safari - anyone use it?

2001-05-21 Thread Dominic Mitchell

On Sun, May 20, 2001 at 05:05:20PM +0100, Dave Cross wrote:
 At 13:27 20/05/2001, Elaine -HFB- Ashton wrote:
 
 You can't expect to steal music and then bitch about how someone is
 stealing copies of your book on line.
 
 True. But just so as we know where we all stand. I have only ever used 
 Napster to find copies of unavailable music.

You mean you actually got napster to work?  That's more of an
achievement than I've ever managed...

-Dom



Re: O'Reilly Safari - anyone use it?

2001-05-21 Thread Redvers Davies

 I object to paying 3.99 gbp (for a single), or 12.99gbp  (for an album
 track) to just get one song. However, if I hear another track from those
 artists, and like it, I will probably get the full album.

Then exercise your right not to buy it - then don't steal it.
You don't have a divine right to something just because it is a single
song.

Pay for it, or don't get it.



Re: O'Reilly Safari - anyone use it?

2001-05-21 Thread David H. Adler

On Sun, May 20, 2001 at 08:28:24AM +0100, Dave Cross wrote:
 
 Don't think anyone writes technical books for money. If they do, then 
 they're in for a big shock.

...and you can just imagine how much more true that is for editing
technical books... :-)

dha, used some of his editing money to buy a new guitar, though...

-- 
David H. Adler - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.panix.com/~dha/
Hang on, you're a veggie, and you don't drink Guinness... why do I
bother fancying you again???  - Alex Page



Re: O'Reilly Safari - anyone use it?

2001-05-21 Thread Dave Cross

At 23:30 21/05/2001, David H. Adler wrote:
On Sun, May 20, 2001 at 08:28:24AM +0100, Dave Cross wrote:
 
  Don't think anyone writes technical books for money. If they do, then
  they're in for a big shock.

...and you can just imagine how much more true that is for editing
technical books... :-)

dha, used some of his editing money to buy a new guitar, though...

ITYM used his editing money to buy some of a new guitar :)

Dave...


-- 
http://www.dave.org.uk  SMS: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Perl Training in the UK
http://www.iterative-software.com/training/




Re: O'Reilly Safari - anyone use it?

2001-05-20 Thread Dave Cross

At 12:12 19/05/2001, Robin Houston wrote:
On Fri, May 18, 2001 at 11:30:28PM +0100, Barry Pretsell wrote:
  It sounds like a good idea (must be better than having 3 editions
  of Programming Perl) and I'm tempted to give it a go, so any Safari
  subscribers out there with an opinion?

Don't forget the ever-fabulous http://corvin.spb.ru/

Er do you _really_ want to advertise that on a list that contains 
people who work for O'Reilly?

Dave...
[currently trying to get _his_ book removed from such a repository]



-- 
http://www.dave.org.uk  SMS: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

plugData Munging with Perl http://www.manning.com/cross//plug




Re: O'Reilly Safari - anyone use it?

2001-05-20 Thread Dave Cross

At 01:46 20/05/2001, Simon Cozens wrote:
On Sat, May 19, 2001 at 07:20:31AM -0600, Nathan Torkington wrote:
  Who here has written a book?  Simon and Dave at least.  It's not easy,
  is it?

You're asking the wrong guy. I don't write books for money, I write
them to contribute information.

Don't think anyone writes technical books for money. If they do, then 
they're in for a big shock.

Having said that tho', it _is_ nice to get at least some financial 
recompense for the months of next-to-no social life.

This is why, unlike some people, I don't blatantly plug my book at the
end of every mail.

:)

What. Like below

Dave...
[thinking for some time that it's about time for a new .sig anyway]


-- 
http://www.dave.org.uk  SMS: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

plugData Munging with Perl http://www.manning.com/cross//plug




Re: O'Reilly Safari - anyone use it?

2001-05-20 Thread Dave Cross

At 17:28 19/05/2001, Jonathan Stowe wrote:
On Sat, 19 May 2001, Nathan Torkington wrote:

  Robin Houston writes:
   Don't forget the ever-fabulous http://corvin.spb.ru/
 
  I'd also like to say that I'm pretty disgusted that the Perlmongers,
  of all people, would advocate pirating the Camel.  Yeah, way to thank
  Larry!
 

I'm not entirely sure that anyone was actively advocating piracy.

I disagree. IMO, posting a link to site containing pirate copies of books 
_is_ advocating piracy. YMMV.

Dave...


-- 
http://www.dave.org.uk  SMS: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

plugData Munging with Perl http://www.manning.com/cross//plug




Re: O'Reilly Safari - anyone use it?

2001-05-20 Thread Dave Cross

At 00:18 20/05/2001, Dean S Wilson wrote:

  I suppose the issue with books as PDF is that it leaves you wide open to 
rampant
  copying...

A problem we're currently encountering with DMP. Some dickhead in Israel 
thinks it's clever to distribute the PDF for free from his website.

Dave...


-- 
http://www.dave.org.uk  SMS: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

plugAdvertise your book here. Ask me how!/plug




Re: O'Reilly Safari - anyone use it?

2001-05-20 Thread Barry Pretsell

 A problem we're currently encountering with DMP. Some dickhead in Israel
 thinks it's clever to distribute the PDF for free from his website.

Why do Manning sell their books online as pdf files? and do they plan to
stop it
now that rampant copying is taking place?

Barry

- Original Message -
From: Dave Cross [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2001 9:11 AM
Subject: Re: O'Reilly Safari - anyone use it?


 At 00:18 20/05/2001, Dean S Wilson wrote:

   I suppose the issue with books as PDF is that it leaves you wide open
to
 rampant
   copying...

 A problem we're currently encountering with DMP. Some dickhead in Israel
 thinks it's clever to distribute the PDF for free from his website.

 Dave...


 --
 http://www.dave.org.uk  SMS: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 plugAdvertise your book here. Ask me how!/plug






Re: O'Reilly Safari - anyone use it?

2001-05-20 Thread Dave Cross

At 10:14 20/05/2001, Barry Pretsell wrote:

  A problem we're currently encountering with DMP. Some dickhead in Israel
  thinks it's clever to distribute the PDF for free from his website.

Why do Manning sell their books online as pdf files? and do they plan to
stop it now that rampant copying is taking place?

Two very good questions. But ones that are better addressed to Manning. 
I'll certainly be passing them on later today. I'll let you know what the 
responses are.

Dave...


-- 
http://www.dave.org.uk  SMS: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

plugAdvertise your book here. Ask me how!/plug




Piracy (was Re: O'Reilly Safari - anyone use it?)

2001-05-20 Thread Jonathan Stowe

On Sun, 20 May 2001, Dave Cross wrote:

 At 17:28 19/05/2001, Jonathan Stowe wrote:
 On Sat, 19 May 2001, Nathan Torkington wrote:
 
   Robin Houston writes:
Don't forget the ever-fabulous http://xx.xxx.xx/
  
   I'd also like to say that I'm pretty disgusted that the Perlmongers,
   of all people, would advocate pirating the Camel.  Yeah, way to thank
   Larry!
  
 
 I'm not entirely sure that anyone was actively advocating piracy.

 I disagree. IMO, posting a link to site containing pirate copies of books
 _is_ advocating piracy. YMMV.


I think that this is probably down to a difference in the way that we
apprehend the meaning of the phrase 'advocating piracy', but on reflection
I can see that it could be understood like that.

There is an increasing ambiguity in peoples attitude to 'soft crime'
these days, I would, say which ranges from Intellectual Property theft to
buying smuggled booze and fags to paying tradesmen 'Cash in Hand' to
buying Hear'Say records - because the final victim is detached from the
perpetrator by a chain of consequences it easy to do this stuff with your
conscience intact.  I'd love to blame Thatcher for it.

/J\




Re: O'Reilly Safari - anyone use it?

2001-05-20 Thread Robin Szemeti

On Sun, 20 May 2001, Barry Pretsell wrote:
  A problem we're currently encountering with DMP. Some dickhead in Israel
  thinks it's clever to distribute the PDF for free from his website.
 
 Why do Manning sell their books online as pdf files? and do they plan to
 stop it
 now that rampant copying is taking place?

O'Reillly sell their books as HTML on cds ... 'rampant copying' of that
happens too .. but I doubt it harms them much.

Same as software really. Except the software idiots haven't quite got it
yet. There are two numbers to juggle: The number of people who would have
actually bought your product, but now don't because they have obtained a
pirate copy.   The other one is the number of people who wouldn't have
ordinarily bought your product, but having had a pirate copy, buy a real
copy next time you publish something.  It only harms your business if A
exceeds B by a significant anount.

Most people who would have actually bought a real one .. actually buy a
real one. Most dodgy copies are kept by people who wouldn't have bought
one anyway.

-- 
Robin Szemeti

Redpoint Consulting Limited
Real Solutions For A Virtual World



Re: O'Reilly Safari - anyone use it?

2001-05-20 Thread Robin Szemeti

On Sun, 20 May 2001, Dave Cross wrote:
 At 00:18 20/05/2001, Dean S Wilson wrote:
 
   I suppose the issue with books as PDF is that it leaves you wide open to 
 rampant
   copying...
 
 A problem we're currently encountering with DMP. Some dickhead in Israel 
 thinks it's clever to distribute the PDF for free from his website.

ugh .. yes .. 

But do you think it actually harms sales? ... ?? would any of the people
who downloaded the PDF have actually bought a real copy? ... doubt it.
Piracy is a difficult thing to estimate the effects of.

I have in the past had a pirate copy of O'Reillys Network Bookshelf ...
but a) I would not have paid for the CD in the first place and b)  Iliked
what I saw so much that I went on to buy a whole bookcase full of
O'Reilly stuff. 

Its the same as the software industry who discover some high school kid
with 500 ripped off playstation games and promptly claim thats 20,000
dollars of lost sales .. like the kid would have spent 20,000 dollars on
games.

So yeah .. try and get the site pulled .. (shouldn't be that hard)  but
don;t worry too much I doubt its hurting your pocket in reallity.

-- 
Robin Szemeti

Redpoint Consulting Limited
Real Solutions For A Virtual World



Re: O'Reilly Safari - anyone use it?

2001-05-20 Thread Simon Cozens

On Sat, May 19, 2001 at 09:10:02PM -0700, Paul Makepeace wrote:
 I'm curious what the perceived payback is on books: kudos on the one
 hand, benefit to humankind on the other, and then cash. How does it
 all stack up?

The kudos is fun but unless you write something completely
earth-shattering, you're quickly out of fashion. I see the cash as an
incentive to get books written that might not otherwise have been
written, because again, unless you're writing something
earth-shattering or coming out with something new every six months or
so, sales will dry up. Royalties are bonuses, they buy goodies: a
holiday here, a new computer there. And soon, I expect, I'll not be
getting so much in from Beg. Perl, and they'll be buying jewellery for
the other half or video games.

I do it for the benefit - Beg. Perl was written to help one single
individual learn Perl, and if other people have learnt Perl from it,
that's a bonus; the book I'm writing at the moment, I'm doing it because
I want there to be a really damned good book about XS out there, and
there isn't. If I'm going to write a book, it's because I *really
really* want to write it, so the money is in a sense immaterial.

So why don't I forego the cash and do it all under an open publication
license? Well, firstly, I do: I spent rather a lot of time helping fix
up the Perl documentation, and now I'm planning a bunch of books under
the OPL. But if a publisher's going to throw money at me for writing
something, I'm far more likely to sit down and get on with it, rather
than getting bored and hacking Perl instead. Well, that's the plan,
anyway. Sometimes it doesn't work like that, either. :)

-- 
The use of COBOL cripples the mind; its teaching should, therefore, be
regarded as a criminal offence.
-- Edsger W. Dijkstra, SIGPLAN Notices, Volume 17, Number 5



Re: O'Reilly Safari - anyone use it?

2001-05-20 Thread Simon Cozens

On Sun, May 20, 2001 at 11:23:05AM +0100, Robin Szemeti wrote:
 I have in the past had a pirate copy of O'Reillys Network Bookshelf ...
 but a) I would not have paid for the CD in the first place and b)  Iliked
 what I saw so much that I went on to buy a whole bookcase full of
 O'Reilly stuff. 

I'm *sure* at some level, the publishers know this, but they'd rather
not admit it. :) If you release a book as a computer file, *IT WILL GET
COPIED*. Don't think they're too stupid not to realise this.

But people like having nice bound paper copies of things. Having it on
line just isn't the same. That's why O'Reilly publishes copies of
things that *are* freely available, like the Linux Network
Administrator's Guide.

-- 
People who love sausages, respect the law, and work with IT standards
shouldn't watch any of them being made.
- Peter Gutmann  



Re: O'Reilly Safari - anyone use it?

2001-05-20 Thread Simon Cozens

On Sun, May 20, 2001 at 08:49:56AM +0100, Dave Cross wrote:
 I disagree. IMO, posting a link to site containing pirate copies of books 
 _is_ advocating piracy. YMMV.

Here is how to do it. Now *you* have a choice.

Have you read A treatise on the construction of locks?

-- 
The C Programming Language -- A language which combines the power of
assembly language with the flexibility of assembly language.



Re: O'Reilly Safari - anyone use it?

2001-05-20 Thread Elaine -HFB- Ashton

Dave Cross [[EMAIL PROTECTED]] quoth:
*
*I disagree. IMO, posting a link to site containing pirate copies of books 
*_is_ advocating piracy. YMMV.

In a world that advocates Napster, this is no different. Someone buys a
copy of the book, scans it in and shares it with the world. Outrage by the
author is not any different than outrage by a musical artist.

There was an interesting interview with Bill Joy at the P2P conference
iirc that discussed this sort of piracy and Joy specifically talked about
books being the most worrisome part of this type of activity/technology.

The royalties are so small that I doubt if it would make any major
difference in anyones bank account for the people who buy books will still
buy them and the people that don't just might go out and purchase a copy.
You write a book because you think there is something you know that others
might benefit from as noone gets rich in this business. Why, I think
Jarkko and I went to dinner once on his royalty cheque from ORA. 

You can't expect to steal music and then bitch about how someone is
stealing copies of your book on line.

e.



Re: O'Reilly Safari - anyone use it?

2001-05-20 Thread Niklas Nordebo

On Sun, May 20, 2001 at 07:27:39AM -0500, Elaine -HFB- Ashton wrote:
 You can't expect to steal music and then bitch about how someone is
 stealing copies of your book on line.

Ah, good old piracy is theft analogy - what would we do without you?

I think I'll start reloading that russian site until I've stolen all
O'Reilly's copies of the Camel book - then I'll have a monopoly and can
take over the world (of Perl)!

Seriously, I don't advocate copyright violation, but I much prefer it to
theft or high sea piracy if people are going to commit crimes.

-- 
Niklas Nordebo -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- +447966251290
 The day is seven hours and fifteen minutes old, and already it's
crippled with the weight of my evasions, deceit, and downright lies



Re: O'Reilly Safari - anyone use it?

2001-05-20 Thread Nicholas Clark

On Sun, May 20, 2001 at 05:15:44PM +0200, Niklas Nordebo wrote:
 Seriously, I don't advocate copyright violation, but I much prefer it to
 theft or high sea piracy if people are going to commit crimes.

I always found arms trafficking far more fun.
Although I supposed nowadays we should be shipping the DeCCS perl code around
in .sigs rather than the perl RSA code, as the former seems to be much more
successful at getting up people's noses these days.

Nicholas Clark




Re: O'Reilly Safari - anyone use it?

2001-05-20 Thread Dave Cross

At 13:27 20/05/2001, Elaine -HFB- Ashton wrote:

You can't expect to steal music and then bitch about how someone is
stealing copies of your book on line.

True. But just so as we know where we all stand. I have only ever used 
Napster to find copies of unavailable music.

Dave...


-- 
http://www.dave.org.uk  SMS: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

plugAdvertise your book here. Ask me how!/plug




Re: O'Reilly Safari - anyone use it?

2001-05-20 Thread Robert Shiels

I bought 3 CDs yesterday, about 32 quids worth . I downloaded 2 Napster
tracks last week.

I object to paying 3.99 gbp (for a single), or 12.99gbp  (for an album
track) to just get one song. However, if I hear another track from those
artists, and like it, I will probably get the full album.

I also use Napster (when I'm working somewhere with a big pipe) to get
digital copies of music that I've already paid for analogue copies of.

--
Robert


- Original Message -
From: Dave Cross [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 20 May 2001 17:05
Subject: Re: O'Reilly Safari - anyone use it?


 At 13:27 20/05/2001, Elaine -HFB- Ashton wrote:

 You can't expect to steal music and then bitch about how someone is
 stealing copies of your book on line.

 True. But just so as we know where we all stand. I have only ever used
 Napster to find copies of unavailable music.

 Dave...


 --
 http://www.dave.org.uk  SMS: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 plugAdvertise your book here. Ask me how!/plug






Re: O'Reilly Safari - anyone use it?

2001-05-19 Thread Robin Houston

On Fri, May 18, 2001 at 11:30:28PM +0100, Barry Pretsell wrote:
 It sounds like a good idea (must be better than having 3 editions
 of Programming Perl) and I'm tempted to give it a go, so any Safari
 subscribers out there with an opinion?

Don't forget the ever-fabulous http://corvin.spb.ru/

 .robin.

-- 
God! a red nugget: a fat egg under a dog.



Re: O'Reilly Safari - anyone use it?

2001-05-19 Thread Nathan Torkington

Robin Houston writes:
 On Fri, May 18, 2001 at 11:30:28PM +0100, Barry Pretsell wrote:
  It sounds like a good idea (must be better than having 3 editions
  of Programming Perl) and I'm tempted to give it a go, so any Safari
  subscribers out there with an opinion?
 
 Don't forget the ever-fabulous http://corvin.spb.ru/

You know, I've checked my royalty statement for the Cookbook, and nary
a penny came from this Russian pirate website.  The point of Safari is
that you pay a very small amount of money for very convenient access,
and the author gets some of it (I believe authors get a greater
royalty via Safari than they do via printed books, because we don't
have printing costs).

When you don't pay money, whether you justify it because you already
own the book, or because you're a poor student, you're screwing the
authors.  But they won't miss my $1.  Your dollar is no different
from everyone else's, and if everyone else thought the same thing,
there'd be no dollars.

Who here has written a book?  Simon and Dave at least.  It's not easy,
is it?  It's an exercise in MISERY.  Huge numbers of lost evenings,
missed family moments, and late nights.  When I was writing the Perl
Cookbook, I had to miss a family trip to Disneyworld and a rare
talk.bizarre party in Montreal because of book deadlines.  If there's
nothing waiting at the end but your name on a book nobody buys because
some assface in Russia offers it up for free on the web, I sure as
hell wouldn't have done it.  I'd have had fun with my family and
friends, enjoyed those evenings, and spent a hell of a lot less time
worrying about the placement of commas and the difference between
which and that.

So thanks for the pointer to your ever-fabulous Russian thief, but my
son would really prefer that you tried Safari.

Thanks,

Nat





Re: O'Reilly Safari - anyone use it?

2001-05-19 Thread Rob Partington

In message [EMAIL PROTECTED],
Nathan Torkington [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 When you don't pay money, whether you justify it because you already
 own the book, or because you're a poor student, you're screwing the
 authors.  But they won't miss my $1.  Your dollar is no different
 from everyone else's, and if everyone else thought the same thing,
 there'd be no dollars.

I don't think that's necessarily true.  Dave Thomas and Andy Hunt gave
away their Programming Ruby book by putting it online so you can read
it without pirating it or paying for it.  

I know 3 people, me included, who went a bought a second copy of the book
when they did that.  I know people who have bought the book after reading
it on the Ruby website.  

If I had a need for the Cookbook, I'd buy a dead tree copy whether it 
was freely pirated online or not -- I can't get online in the bath, 
or on a train, or in a car, so online copies are relatively useless.
-- 
rob partington % [EMAIL PROTECTED] % http://lynx.browser.org/
(just 2p worth)



Re: O'Reilly Safari - anyone use it?

2001-05-19 Thread Dean S Wilson





-Original Message-From: 
Barry Pretsell [EMAIL PROTECTED]
I'm interested to know if anyone uses 
Safari to read O'Reilly books online.
http://safari1.oreilly.com/tablhom.asp?home

It sounds like a good idea (must be better 
than having 3 editions of Programming Perl) and I'm tempted to give it a go, 
so any Safari subscribers out there with an opinion?

I've not started using it yet but I'll admit 
to being very tempted on a couple of occasions (When I need the cookbook and 
my CD's at home mostly) the only real thing putting me off is the need to be 
constantly on-line. I do a lot of my work on my laptop with no network 
connections so I don't get distracted by things like e-mail and I'd like a 
local copy, you could write a slow crawler to make up for this but that 
sorta breaks the spirit of it and I imagine Nat not being too happy with me 
;)

I was impressed by the Manning way of 
letting me download a PDF of the book, it makes my life easier since I can 
use it off line. On the other hand I thought Manning would have released 
their back catalogue in ebook as well as they have a very limited selection 
at the moment.

I suppose the issue with books as PDF is that it leaves 
you wide open to rampant copying... Although you could slow crawl safari and 
zip 'em up.

 Dean
-- 
Profanity is the one language all programmers 
understand. --- Anon