Re: Perl Books

[Aaron Trevena]

On Fri, 2 Feb 2001, David Cantrell wrote:

> On Thu, Feb 01, 2001 at 11:21:57AM -0600, Elaine -HFB- Ashton wrote:
> 
> > :) I think you are missing my point here. The plumber who is skilled in a
> > trade probably thinks you are an idiot when you manage to mangle your own
> > pipes and have to call him to fix it for you. 
> 
> However, I don't question the plumber's competence, or indeed pretend to
> anyone including myself that I can do a good job of it.  The same should
> apply to programming.  If I were to try my hand at re-plumbing my kitchen,
> I know I'd make a god-awful mess, and I am intelligent enough to not
> attempt it.  The great unwashed should approach programming the same way.

My old mans a catering lecture and pub landlord but just  did all teh
electrics and plumbing in the gutted cottage he bought in redruth in
conrwall. He did so well that the gasman was surprised with the negligable
drop in pressure when he tested.

Now he is going to learn dreamweaver and I talked him into learning perl
instead of java - because it would suit what he wants to do (mostly matts
script kind of stuff) and pointed him at ora. I wish more people are like
that, rather than people who believe that because they can write a word
macro they are a programmer.

I have been training at kung fu for 6 months and I still am not ready to
take the first grading, I know I'm not good at it yet but I also know that
I have a good instructor and that I can and will be good at it and I'll
get it right, not just learn a couple of 10 minute self defense class
rubbish.

bah! This is more (void) than (void) 

A. 

-- 
http://termisoc.org/~betty"> Betty @ termisoc.org 
"As a youngster Fred fought sea battles on the village pond using a 
complex system of signals he devised that was later adopted by the Royal 
Navy. " (this email has nothing to do with any organisation except me)

Re: Perl Books

[Aaron Trevena]

On Fri, 2 Feb 2001, Greg Cope wrote:

> Aaron Trevena wrote:
> > 
> > On Thu, 1 Feb 2001, Elaine -HFB- Ashton wrote:
> > > No, there wasn't even something I could buy for it sadly. It's a simple
> > > CGI, I would have paid $15 for a quickie 'here's your simple cgi just plug
> > > in your variables here' code.
> > 
> > Been there - more often than not, the cookbook fills any holes. I had a
> > particular problem with web forums - slashcode being a bit OTT and
> > wwwthreads cotsing money and then hundreds of PHP and java and asp forums,
> > then I found mwforum and now I am rewriting it big time to get back into
> > coding after sitting on my arse for weeks waiting for work or chasing
> > people up or editing html. If anybody is interested I hope to have a TT'd
> > version of mwforum on the web some time next week. After that I will
> > totally hack it apart and rework it to fit my own twisted needs.
> >
> 
> Are you going to send the patches back to the authors ?

Patches? they are big - essentially you replace most of most of the files
- not really worth patching. However yes it will be released and all
orginal copyright notices are left intact and whenever I think appropriate
I point out that it is derived from mwforum. and that all mwforum bits are
copyright mw although to be honest I don't think a single line of the
original will remain.

I plan to 'do the right thing' and email mw before I post it anywhere so
that I'm not stepping on his toes - I point out in the documenentaion how
much I learnt from his work and stuff and that it works very well for what
he designed it to do. Hopefully he will like it, that would make me very
happy.

A.

-- 
http://termisoc.org/~betty"> Betty @ termisoc.org 
"As a youngster Fred fought sea battles on the village pond using a 
complex system of signals he devised that was later adopted by the Royal 
Navy. " (this email has nothing to do with any organisation except me)

Re: Perl Books

[Michael Stevens]

On Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 11:16:06AM -0600, Elaine -HFB- Ashton wrote:
> Benjamin Holzman [[EMAIL PROTECTED]] quoth:
> *>On Thu, Feb 01, 2001 at 11:57:20AM -0700, Nathan Torkington wrote:
> *>> Meaning, nobody's really a complete idiot and we'd seem just as dumb
> *>> if we called brain surgery tech support, new mother tech support, or
> *>> even gardening tech support.
> *>True, but there aren't many people who will assume that they can perform
> *>brain surgery just because they successfully applied a band-aid to a paper
> *>cut the week before.
> True, but I don't think anyone is going to die from writing crappy CGIs v.
> hacking at someones grey cells with a scalpel. 

Gardening tech support is perhaps a better example. Not sure.

I've managed to keep pot plants alive but I don't go round thinking I'm
a gardener.

Michael

Re: Perl Books

[Elaine -HFB- Ashton]

Benjamin Holzman [[EMAIL PROTECTED]] quoth:
*>On Thu, Feb 01, 2001 at 11:57:20AM -0700, Nathan Torkington wrote:
*>> Meaning, nobody's really a complete idiot and we'd seem just as dumb
*>> if we called brain surgery tech support, new mother tech support, or
*>> even gardening tech support.
*>
*>True, but there aren't many people who will assume that they can perform
*>brain surgery just because they successfully applied a band-aid to a paper
*>cut the week before.

True, but I don't think anyone is going to die from writing crappy CGIs v.
hacking at someones grey cells with a scalpel. 

e.

Re: Perl Books

[Dave Hodgkinson]

Aaron Trevena <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> Been there - more often than not, the cookbook fills any holes. I had a
> particular problem with web forums - slashcode being a bit OTT and
> wwwthreads cotsing money and then hundreds of PHP and java and asp forums,
> then I found mwforum and now I am rewriting it big time to get back into
> coding after sitting on my arse for weeks waiting for work or chasing
> people up or editing html. If anybody is interested I hope to have a TT'd
> version of mwforum on the web some time next week. After that I will
> totally hack it apart and rework it to fit my own twisted needs.

gimme

-- 
Dave Hodgkinson, http://www.hodgkinson.org
Editor-in-chief, The Highway Star   http://www.deep-purple.com
  Apache, mod_perl, MySQL, Sybase hired gun for, well, hire
  -

Re: Perl Books

[Robert Shiels]

>However, I don't question the plumber's competence, or indeed pretend to
>anyone including myself that I can do a good job of it.  The same should
>apply to programming.  If I were to try my hand at re-plumbing my kitchen,
> know I'd make a god-awful mess, and I am intelligent enough to not
>attempt it.  The great unwashed should approach programming the same way.

When everyone has permanent net connections, and their network is open to
the world, and they do a bit of configuration/programming that opens up
their system to crackers who have a bit of a play turning off their alarm
system and opening the electronic garage door etc

then

will they call in a real professional to fix it.

This is analogous to me drilling several holes in my wall to try and put up
a curtain rail, making a complete mess of it, and calling in someone from
the yellow pages who did it in 10 minutes and charged me £30, which is what
I should have done in the first place.

or will they just install Microsoft SafeHouse(TM) which will do it all for
them

There is definitely money to be made in this area by someone!

/Robert

Re: Perl Books

[Mark Fowler]

> However, I don't question the plumber's competence, or indeed pretend to
> anyone including myself that I can do a good job of it.  The same should
> apply to programming.  If I were to try my hand at re-plumbing my kitchen,
> I know I'd make a god-awful mess, and I am intelligent enough to not
> attempt it.  The great unwashed should approach programming the same way.

Hmmm.

My sink is blocked.  It's very blocked.  I'm good enough at plumbing to
take the u-bend off and check that that wasn't blocked - a simple enough
process.  It turned out that that wasn't the problem - it was further down
the pipe.  At this point I called a plumber[1].

Draw whatever comparisons you will between this and coding.

Later.

Mark.

[1] I actually called the landlord, and told him to call a plumber...

-- 
print "\n",map{my$a="\n"if(length$_>6);' 'x(36-length($_)/2)."$_\n$a"} (
   Name  => 'Mark Fowler',Title => 'Technology Developer'  ,
   Firm  => 'Profero Ltd',Web   => 'http://www.profero.com/'   ,
   Email => '[EMAIL PROTECTED]',   Phone => '+44 (0) 20 7700 9960'  )

Re: Perl Books

[David Cantrell]

On Thu, Feb 01, 2001 at 11:21:57AM -0600, Elaine -HFB- Ashton wrote:

> :) I think you are missing my point here. The plumber who is skilled in a
> trade probably thinks you are an idiot when you manage to mangle your own
> pipes and have to call him to fix it for you. 

However, I don't question the plumber's competence, or indeed pretend to
anyone including myself that I can do a good job of it.  The same should
apply to programming.  If I were to try my hand at re-plumbing my kitchen,
I know I'd make a god-awful mess, and I am intelligent enough to not
attempt it.  The great unwashed should approach programming the same way.

-- 
David Cantrell | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david/

   Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced

** I read encrypted mail first, so encrypt if your message is important **

 PGP signature

Re: Perl Books

[Greg Cope]

Aaron Trevena wrote:
> 
> On Thu, 1 Feb 2001, Elaine -HFB- Ashton wrote:
> > No, there wasn't even something I could buy for it sadly. It's a simple
> > CGI, I would have paid $15 for a quickie 'here's your simple cgi just plug
> > in your variables here' code.
> 
> Been there - more often than not, the cookbook fills any holes. I had a
> particular problem with web forums - slashcode being a bit OTT and
> wwwthreads cotsing money and then hundreds of PHP and java and asp forums,
> then I found mwforum and now I am rewriting it big time to get back into
> coding after sitting on my arse for weeks waiting for work or chasing
> people up or editing html. If anybody is interested I hope to have a TT'd
> version of mwforum on the web some time next week. After that I will
> totally hack it apart and rework it to fit my own twisted needs.
>

Are you going to send the patches back to the authors ?

Greg


> 
> A.
> 
> --
> http://termisoc.org/~betty"> Betty @ termisoc.org 
> "As a youngster Fred fought sea battles on the village pond using a
> complex system of signals he devised that was later adopted by the Royal
> Navy. " (this email has nothing to do with any organisation except me)

Re: Perl Books

[Nathan Torkington]

Alex Page writes:
> Yeah... I always forget to flush when forking, and I've done some
> horrible things with IPC::Open3 before...

I'm shuddering at the thought of the human equivalent of atomic writes.
"The largest nugget that will pass through a pipe intact ..."

Nat

Re: Perl Books

[Alex Page]

On Thu, Feb 01, 2001 at 11:21:57AM -0600, Elaine -HFB- Ashton wrote:

> :) I think you are missing my point here. The plumber who is skilled in a
> trade probably thinks you are an idiot when you manage to mangle your own
> pipes and have to call him to fix it for you. 

Yeah... I always forget to flush when forking, and I've done some horrible things with 
IPC::Open3 before...

Alex
-- 
"I ask for so little. Just let me rule you, and you
 can have everything that you want." - Jareth, Labyrinth

Re: Perl Books

[Greg McCarroll]

* Benjamin Holzman ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
> 
> True, but there aren't many people who will assume that they can perform
> brain surgery just because they successfully applied a band-aid to a paper
> cut the week before.
> 

www.trepanation.com ;-) [1]

Greg

[1] i haven't checked the URL so dont blame me if it turns out to be
kittie [;-)] porn



-- 
Greg McCarroll  http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net

Re: Perl Books

[Aaron Trevena]

On Thu, 1 Feb 2001, Elaine -HFB- Ashton wrote:
> No, there wasn't even something I could buy for it sadly. It's a simple
> CGI, I would have paid $15 for a quickie 'here's your simple cgi just plug
> in your variables here' code. 

Been there - more often than not, the cookbook fills any holes. I had a
particular problem with web forums - slashcode being a bit OTT and
wwwthreads cotsing money and then hundreds of PHP and java and asp forums,
then I found mwforum and now I am rewriting it big time to get back into
coding after sitting on my arse for weeks waiting for work or chasing
people up or editing html. If anybody is interested I hope to have a TT'd
version of mwforum on the web some time next week. After that I will
totally hack it apart and rework it to fit my own twisted needs.
 
> If I wanted Java or PHP however, I could take my pick or reasonably
> quickly useful stuff. I didn't have the same results for Perl it is just
> not out there or my standards are too high and I was looking in the wrong
> place.

A lot of programming is knowing where to look, If I hadn't been given a
good lowdown on where to get decent Notes information I would have spent
months getting anywhere but I was given the course notes for a notes
course, a stack of Notes Magazines and a list of urls. Also bought myself
the SAMs book on Notes Unleashed.

I told my old man he'd learn pretty much all he needed to know from
learning perl and perl & cgi by ORA. Its much better than wasting tiem
learning java or getting muddled with loads of crappy shareware or budget
perl software.

A.

-- 
http://termisoc.org/~betty"> Betty @ termisoc.org 
"As a youngster Fred fought sea battles on the village pond using a 
complex system of signals he devised that was later adopted by the Royal 
Navy. " (this email has nothing to do with any organisation except me)

Re: Perl Books

[Dean S Wilson]

-Original Message-
From: Benjamin Holzman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

>True, but there aren't many people who will assume that they can
perform
>brain surgery just because they successfully applied a band-aid to a
paper
>cut the week before.


You haven't been to the NHS recently have you... ;)

Dean

--
Profanity is the one language all programmers understand.
   ---  Anon

Re: Perl Books

[Dean S Wilson]

-Original Message-
From: Elaine -HFB- Ashton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>


>anyone other than Webheads have better things to do than learn CGI.
It
>doesn't make them stupid, in fact, I'd almost argue that they are the
>bright ones.


Amen.

>Which is probably about 95% of the planet. Why should they care if
the
>Perl is shoddy? The web page works :)

I can see your point and I agree that a tiny initial learning curve is
a good thing but what happens when the shoddy bit of cgi is used to
execute an intrusion on the host it's based on or another machine?.
The coder has a responsibility to make sure that his work at least
pays some attention to security. And if the book doesn't cover use
warnings or use strict I doubt taint mode is in the contents.

If you thought Simons Buffy joke was bad have a look at this, you want
the Tainted Perl section...
http://www.spy.org.uk/london2600/party-2000.htm

Dean (Packing for Belgium so not at tonight's meeting)

--
Profanity is the one language all programmers understand.
   ---  Anon

Re: Perl Books

[Benjamin Holzman]

On Thu, Feb 01, 2001 at 11:57:20AM -0700, Nathan Torkington wrote:
> Meaning, nobody's really a complete idiot and we'd seem just as dumb
> if we called brain surgery tech support, new mother tech support, or
> even gardening tech support.

True, but there aren't many people who will assume that they can perform
brain surgery just because they successfully applied a band-aid to a paper
cut the week before.

Ben

-- 
Benjamin HolzmanECNvantage Corp.
Chief Technical Officer 295 Park Avenue S., Suite 7C
(212) 358-0436 : [EMAIL PROTECTED] New York, NY, 10010
$ perl -le 'print join $" ,reverse map ucfirst ,qw{ hacker perl another just}'

Re: Perl Books

[Paul Mison]

On 01/02/2001 at 10:03 +, Robert Shiels wrote:

>Just had a look at the PC Bookshops website (www.pcbooks.co.uk).
>Didn't they
>used to have a way of finding out whether the book was actually on the
>shelf
>or not - I may drop in there today on my way south of the river (Oh, the
>shame) and wanted to plan my potential purchase.

I was in there yesterday (working in Central London)++ and there was
one copy in the Holborn shop. They didn't seem to have Programming
Internet Email or DMP though.

(When does Foyles close in the evenings anyway? I was pleasantly
surprised when I went in there last week. Lots of tube books too.)

--
:: paul
:: they don't come at you with guns
:: they come at you with smiles

Re: Perl Books

[Nathan Torkington]

Robin Szemeti writes:
> WHICH IS EXACTLY WHAT I WAS SAYING ...  (in big letters just to make sure
> :) stunningly bright but experience in a different field .. understood.
> but still one of the (very) bright ones.

When I worked at an ISP, our motto was:

  The customer is an expert in their own field.

Meaning, nobody's really a complete idiot and we'd seem just as dumb
if we called brain surgery tech support, new mother tech support, or
even gardening tech support.

This has nothing to do with your thread, but this is London.pm so
relevance be fucked :-)

Nat

Re: Perl Books

[Robin Houston]

On Thu, Feb 01, 2001 at 11:57:20AM -0700, Nathan Torkington wrote:
> [...] brain surgery tech support [...]

Have you got the number?
I'm having a spot of bother with my hypothalamus.

 .robin.

Re: Perl Books

[Elaine -HFB- Ashton]

Robin Szemeti [[EMAIL PROTECTED]] quoth:
*>
*>I think you are getting confused between my comments about the desire
*>to learn CGI by 'normal' people ( where I reckon that these people are
*>already in the top few % of the pile) with my comments about the
*>population in general .. who err .. 'function on a slightly lower level'.

:) I think you are missing my point here. The plumber who is skilled in a
trade probably thinks you are an idiot when you manage to mangle your own
pipes and have to call him to fix it for you. 

Everyone is someone elses idiot, some are just moreso than others :)

*>I thought thats what I was saying too ... I'd disagree with the 95% ..
*>I'd say 99% .. plus. The good code is prfessionally written ... and
*>mostly not out there on display .. you have to buy it!

No, there wasn't even something I could buy for it sadly. It's a simple
CGI, I would have paid $15 for a quickie 'here's your simple cgi just plug
in your variables here' code. 

If I wanted Java or PHP however, I could take my pick or reasonably
quickly useful stuff. I didn't have the same results for Perl it is just
not out there or my standards are too high and I was looking in the wrong
place.

e.

Re: Perl Books

[Robin Szemeti]

On Thu, 01 Feb 2001, you wrote:

> Well, this particular one was 65 years old, a consultant to world leaders
> in Economic affairs and was completely baffled by the advent of a new
> laptop. He had better things to worry about than learning something as
> trivial and insignificant to life on the planet earth than CGI. Almost
> anyone other than Webheads have better things to do than learn CGI. It
> doesn't make them stupid, in fact, I'd almost argue that they are the
> bright ones.

WHICH IS EXACTLY WHAT I WAS SAYING ...  (in big letters just to make sure
:) stunningly bright but experience in a different field .. understood.
but still one of the (very) bright ones.

I think you are getting confused between my comments about the desire
to learn CGI by 'normal' people ( where I reckon that these people are
already in the top few % of the pile) with my comments about the
population in general .. who err .. 'function on a slightly lower level'.

> *>'regex' so ... oh I dunno .. yes its crap perl, yes its not a great work
> *>on CGI .. but it probably achieves what it set out to do, give basic
> *>knowledge to someone who only wnats to spend two lunchtimes on a bit of
> *>CGI for their home page.
> 
> Which is probably about 95% of the planet. Why should they care if the
> Perl is shoddy? The web page works :) I went hunting for a quickie DBI/CGI
> tutorial/template/code I could steal last December and I can pretty much
> vouch for there being zip in that category out there on the web for the
> new and the lazy to take and learn from. It's disappointing.

I thought thats what I was saying too ... I'd disagree with the 95% ..
I'd say 99% .. plus. The good code is prfessionally written ... and
mostly not out there on display .. you have to buy it!

> *>I dunno .. I guess there is the 'type this in like this' level and there
> *>is the full blown 'buy a copy of Programming Perl' approach I dont see
> *>much middle ground. 
> 
> It's hard to write such a book.

yup .. 

right see you lot at the meeting tonite, then .. im off to Switzerland :))

-- 
Robin Szemeti

The box said "requires windows 95 or better"
So I installed Linux!

Re: Perl Books

[Elaine -HFB- Ashton]

Robin Szemeti [[EMAIL PROTECTED]] quoth:
*>
*>But what you say above proves my point dunnit ... these guys are nobel
*>laureates and they enjoy a challenge.. out there in the real world a
*>large percentage of the population finds adding up the money for the bus a
*>challenge ... the pasics of CGI are rocket science for most people.

Well, this particular one was 65 years old, a consultant to world leaders
in Economic affairs and was completely baffled by the advent of a new
laptop. He had better things to worry about than learning something as
trivial and insignificant to life on the planet earth than CGI. Almost
anyone other than Webheads have better things to do than learn CGI. It
doesn't make them stupid, in fact, I'd almost argue that they are the
bright ones.

*>'regex' so ... oh I dunno .. yes its crap perl, yes its not a great work
*>on CGI .. but it probably achieves what it set out to do, give basic
*>knowledge to someone who only wnats to spend two lunchtimes on a bit of
*>CGI for their home page.

Which is probably about 95% of the planet. Why should they care if the
Perl is shoddy? The web page works :) I went hunting for a quickie DBI/CGI
tutorial/template/code I could steal last December and I can pretty much
vouch for there being zip in that category out there on the web for the
new and the lazy to take and learn from. It's disappointing.

*>I dunno .. I guess there is the 'type this in like this' level and there
*>is the full blown 'buy a copy of Programming Perl' approach I dont see
*>much middle ground. 

It's hard to write such a book.

e.

Re: Perl Books

[James Powell]

Those 15 minutes (each way, probably about 20 from where I am) 
come out of my pay packet! And it doesn't stay open late enough
in the evening.

I've been spoilt, I used to work at Tower 42 (was natwest tower)
and the city branch was a well lobbed copy of an o'reilly book
(preferably mysql & msql) away.

I can also recommend the bar in Tower 42 as a place to take
friends to impress them (well, apart the snooty bar staff and
average cocktails).

jp

On Thu, Feb 01, 2001 at 12:36:53PM -, Robert Shiels wrote:
> 
> From: "James Powell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > 
> > 
> > Totally unrelated, I wish they'd open a PC Bookshop in Farringdon.
> > 
> Don't be so lazy :)
> 
> You can walk to Holborn in under 15 minutes.
> 
> /Robert

Re: Perl Books

[Robert Price]

At 12:34 PM 2/1/01 +, jp wrote:
[snip]
>Totally unrelated, I wish they'd open a PC Bookshop in Farringdon.

But it's only a 10-15 minute stroll to the one in Southampton Row from
Farringdon. 

Rob

Re: Perl Books

[Robert Shiels]

From: "James Powell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 
> 
> Totally unrelated, I wish they'd open a PC Bookshop in Farringdon.
> 
Don't be so lazy :)

You can walk to Holborn in under 15 minutes.

/Robert

Re: Perl Books

[James Powell]

On Thu, Feb 01, 2001 at 11:39:24AM +, Robin Szemeti wrote:
> [big snip]
> 
> no .. its not (for want of a better word) rocket science, but to do it
> correctly does require a broad range of knowledge about several different
> systems and really what Ms Castro attempts to do is give a bit of all of
> that to a readership that simply wants to bang something into their
> homepage and for it to work.  I agree that the documenttion was not
> 'good' by professional standards but it was a book for non-programmers. 
> a sort of paperback intro to half of what they needed to know. I have
> issues with how shes goes about it (like CGI.pm would have made life soo
> much easier ) and some of the perl is awful, but I beleive that
> readership it was aimed at would have gone all glassy eyed and fallen
> over backwards at the word 'subroutine' and run off screaming if you said
> 'regex'...


AHH! REGEX! (runs away)


(sorry)


Totally unrelated, I wish they'd open a PC Bookshop in Farringdon.

jp

Re: Perl Books

[Robin Szemeti]

On Thu, 01 Feb 2001, you wrote:
> Robin Szemeti [[EMAIL PROTECTED]] quoth:
> *>
> *>i think we get a slanted view on what a 'normal level of intelligence'
> *>is, because in general, we work with exceptional people. I spent the last
> 
> I know at least 2 nobel laureates who wouldn't know jack about CGI or
> about selecting which book might be a better buy. Hell, I installed
> Microsoft BOB for one of them way back when the GUI of windows vs. the
> beauty of TeX was a bit much. Something new is a challenge, even if you
> are a rocket scientist.

hmm .. I think we're getting a bit mixed up between mr hearst and
newspapers and  technical knowledge in a particular area. still ... keep
going. :)

But what you say above proves my point dunnit ... these guys are nobel
laureates and they enjoy a challenge.. out there in the real world a
large percentage of the population finds adding up the money for the bus a
challenge ... the pasics of CGI are rocket science for most people.

> It's not a matter of pandering to the  stupid, it's a matter of presenting 
> the information in a format that is easy to read and understand without
> treating the reader to sanskrit. 

uh huh ... agreed.
 
> Of course, even the brilliant are often stupid especially when it comes to
> applied v. theory. 
> 
> The great unwashed masses of CGI are probably not the brightest bulbs, but
> I don't think it's so much an esoteric subject to justify such a dearth in
> good documentation for them. 

no .. its not (for want of a better word) rocket science, but to do it
correctly does require a broad range of knowledge about several different
systems and really what Ms Castro attempts to do is give a bit of all of
that to a readership that simply wants to bang something into their
homepage and for it to work.  I agree that the documenttion was not
'good' by professional standards but it was a book for non-programmers. 
a sort of paperback intro to half of what they needed to know. I have
issues with how shes goes about it (like CGI.pm would have made life soo
much easier ) and some of the perl is awful, but I beleive that
readership it was aimed at would have gone all glassy eyed and fallen
over backwards at the word 'subroutine' and run off screaming if you said
'regex' so ... oh I dunno .. yes its crap perl, yes its not a great work
on CGI .. but it probably achieves what it set out to do, give basic
knowledge to someone who only wnats to spend two lunchtimes on a bit of
CGI for their home page.

I dunno .. I guess there is the 'type this in like this' level and there
is the full blown 'buy a copy of Programming Perl' approach I dont see
much middle ground. 

-- 
Robin Szemeti

The box said "requires windows 95 or better"
So I installed Linux!

Re: Perl Books

[Robert Shiels]

>
> > Also L Steins Network Programming with Perl is a good book. I'm only a
> > chunk into it buts its a good read on its own and an even better one
> > if your not from a Unix background.
>
> Yup, it's a bloody impressive book.
>
> Nat
>
Just had a look at the PC Bookshops website (www.pcbooks.co.uk). Didn't they
used to have a way of finding out whether the book was actually on the shelf
or not - I may drop in there today on my way south of the river (Oh, the
shame) and wanted to plan my potential purchase.

/Robert

Re: Perl Books

[Redvers Davies]

>> Also L Steins Network Programming with Perl is a good book. I'm only a
>> chunk into it buts its a good read on its own and an even better one
>> if your not from a Unix background.
>
>Yup, it's a bloody impressive book.

I concur.  I was lucky enough to get a look at the copy that Dave Cross had
at the technical meeting.  The next day I was down Waterstones buying my
own copy.

Re: Perl Books

[Dave Cross]

On Wed, Jan 31, 2001 at 09:05:25PM +, Dave Cross ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:

[Liz Castro's appalling Perl/CGI book]

> I wrote a very scathing review of Castro's book on amazon.com yesterday.
> In case it doesn't get published, here's the gist:
> 
> For a technical book to be worth buying it needs to succeed on two fronts.
> It needs to have accurate and useful information and it also needs to get
> that information across in a manner that is understandable to its target
> audience.
> 
> Castro's book obviously succeeds on the second front. Most of her
> readers go away thinking they can write CGI scripts. This is why she
> gets such good reader reviews. The problem with the book is that she
> fails on the first count. Her Perl is appalling, but because her
> audience are beginners they aren't qualified to cooment on this very
> important part of the book.

Interestingly, I've received an email from Ms Castro in response to my
Amazon review (which was published last night). She's not particularly
happy about it. I won't forward her private correspondance to the list,
but I may well have a copy with me this evening.

Dave...

-- 
http://www.dave.org.uk | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Data Munging with Perl

Re: Perl Books

[Elaine -HFB- Ashton]

Nathan Torkington [[EMAIL PROTECTED]] quoth:
*>
*>Hey, if she's allowed to plug, so am I :-) The 2nd edition of "CGI
*>Programming with Perl" (O'Reilly of course) is pretty bloody good.  I
*>was midway through writing a CGI class when I got a tech-review copy
*>of the book, and it was what I was going to teach and then some more.
*>I like that :-)

Well, anything would be an improvement over the 1st edition :D

e.

Re: Perl Books

[Elaine -HFB- Ashton]

Robin Szemeti [[EMAIL PROTECTED]] quoth:
*>
*>i think we get a slanted view on what a 'normal level of intelligence'
*>is, because in general, we work with exceptional people. I spent the last

I know at least 2 nobel laureates who wouldn't know jack about CGI or
about selecting which book might be a better buy. Hell, I installed
Microsoft BOB for one of them way back when the GUI of windows vs. the
beauty of TeX was a bit much. Something new is a challenge, even if you
are a rocket scientist.

It's not a matter of pandering to the  stupid, it's a matter of presenting 
the information in a format that is easy to read and understand without
treating the reader to sanskrit. 

Of course, even the brilliant are often stupid especially when it comes to
applied v. theory. 

The great unwashed masses of CGI are probably not the brightest bulbs, but
I don't think it's so much an esoteric subject to justify such a dearth in
good documentation for them. 

e.

Re: Perl Books

[Elaine -HFB- Ashton]

Nathan Torkington [[EMAIL PROTECTED]] quoth:
*>> Also L Steins Network Programming with Perl is a good book. I'm only a
*>> chunk into it buts its a good read on its own and an even better one
*>> if your not from a Unix background.
*>
*>Yup, it's a bloody impressive book.

And it's an Addison-Wesley book :)

e.

Re: Perl Books

[Robin Szemeti]

On Wed, 31 Jan 2001, you wrote:
> Robin Szemeti [[EMAIL PROTECTED]] quoth:
> *>
> *>no one ever said the buying public were intelligent ...
> 
> Well, people rise to meet expectations too. There is precious little in
> the way of good CGI books with a practical slant to them out there so out
> of the lot of them, this is probably one of the best. The same principle
> applies to Matt's famous archive...lots of people bitching and not much
> else.

err .. nope. people take the easiest route possible, people rarely rise
to my expectations .. but there are exceptions.

> *>in fact it has been said (by some famoose newspaper tycoon ISTR) that no
> *>one ever lost money by underestimating the intelligence of their
> *>readership.
> 
> That would have been Mr. Hearst whose empire is but a mere shadow of what
> it once was. If you treat people like idiots, that's all you get are
> idiots.

his personal empire may have crumbled but there are many more who are
making plenty of $$ (and pounds) by catering to a buying public whose
major feature is stupidity. trust me, we have a major genre of newspaper
here in the UK that caters to a readership that sees earthworms as a
superior being.

i think we get a slanted view on what a 'normal level of intelligence'
is, because in general, we work with exceptional people. I spent the last
14 years working for the BBC, I thought I worked with some good people,
and some clueballs. Then I did jury service. 12 'good men (or women) and
true' ... a random sample of the great unwashed.  I doubt any of them
would have known a reasoned argument if one ran up to them in the street
and bit them. About then I reallised that I worked with a small slice of
the top of the pile (except journalists, who are pond life) and really I
should begin to worry about the future of the planet. Maybe I'm elitist,
maybe I have a overly inflated view of my own (and indeed all of our)
position in the food chain, but somehow I don't think I'm wrong on this
one.

> On the plus side, Addison-Wesley has a new CGI Perl book coming out in
> early February that should be a major improvement in this particular
> genre.

goodo ... time to buy a bigger bookcase. :)

-- 
Robin Szemeti

The box said "requires windows 95 or better"
So I installed Linux!

Re: Perl Books

[Dave Cross]

On Wed, Jan 31, 2001 at 07:41:54PM +, Jonathan Stowe ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
> On Wed, 31 Jan 2001, Elaine -HFB- Ashton wrote:
> 
> > Robin Szemeti [[EMAIL PROTECTED]] quoth:
> > *>
> > *>no one ever said the buying public were intelligent ...
> >
> > Well, people rise to meet expectations too. There is precious little in
> > the way of good CGI books with a practical slant to them out there so out
> > of the lot of them, this is probably one of the best. The same principle
> > applies to Matt's famous archive...lots of people bitching and not much
> > else.
> >
> 
> Hasnt the Castro book been around almost as long as Matt's Accursed
> Archive(tm) ?  I think the thing about the both of them is that they both
> fill a particular niche that nobody higher up the food chain can
> particularly be both bothered to compete for.  It's all just so, well, '96
> really :)

I wrote a very scathing review of Castro's book on amazon.com yesterday.
In case it doesn't get published, here's the gist:

For a technical book to be worth buying it needs to succeed on two fronts.
It needs to have accurate and useful information and it also needs to get
that information across in a manner that is understandable to its target
audience.

Castro's book obviously succeeds on the second front. Most of her
readers go away thinking they can write CGI scripts. This is why she
gets such good reader reviews. The problem with the book is that she
fails on the first count. Her Perl is appalling, but because her
audience are beginners they aren't qualified to cooment on this very
important part of the book.

Dave...

-- 
http://www.dave.org.uk | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Data Munging with Perl

Re: Perl Books

[Nathan Torkington]

Dean S Wilson writes:
> >Hey, if she's allowed to plug, so am I :-) The 2nd edition of "CGI
> >Programming with Perl" (O'Reilly of course) is pretty bloody good
> 
> Duh, its an O'Reilly. ;)

If only it was that automatic--we sometimes release stinkers (c.f. the
*first* edition of the CGI book :-).

> Also L Steins Network Programming with Perl is a good book. I'm only a
> chunk into it buts its a good read on its own and an even better one
> if your not from a Unix background.

Yup, it's a bloody impressive book.

Nat

Re: Perl Books

[Jonathan Stowe]

On Wed, 31 Jan 2001, Elaine -HFB- Ashton wrote:

> Robin Szemeti [[EMAIL PROTECTED]] quoth:
> *>
> *>no one ever said the buying public were intelligent ...
>
> Well, people rise to meet expectations too. There is precious little in
> the way of good CGI books with a practical slant to them out there so out
> of the lot of them, this is probably one of the best. The same principle
> applies to Matt's famous archive...lots of people bitching and not much
> else.
>

Hasnt the Castro book been around almost as long as Matt's Accursed
Archive(tm) ?  I think the thing about the both of them is that they both
fill a particular niche that nobody higher up the food chain can
particularly be both bothered to compete for.  It's all just so, well, '96
really :)

I still think we should get Larry King to promote the Lincoln Stein vs
Matt Wright prize fight.

/J\
-- 
Jonathan Stowe   |
http://www.gellyfish.com |   I'm with Grep on this one
http://www.tackleway.co.uk   |

Re: Perl Books

[Dave Cross]

On Wed, Jan 31, 2001 at 12:31:33PM -0700, Nathan Torkington ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
> Elaine -HFB- Ashton writes:
> > On the plus side, Addison-Wesley has a new CGI Perl book coming out in
> > early February that should be a major improvement in this particular
> > genre.
> 
> Hey, if she's allowed to plug, so am I :-) The 2nd edition of "CGI
> Programming with Perl" (O'Reilly of course) is pretty bloody good.  I
> was midway through writing a CGI class when I got a tech-review copy
> of the book, and it was what I was going to teach and then some more.
> I like that :-)

Nat's right, it _is_ a very good book.

And whilst we're plugging books. I've just got my author copies of "Data
Munging with Perl". It's a great feeling finally seeing in in print as a
real book.

It's got an ISBN and everything :)

Thanks to everyone who helped out in any way.

Dave...

-- 
http://www.dave.org.uk | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Data Munging with Perl

Re: Perl Books

[Dean S Wilson]

-Original Message-
From: Nathan Torkington <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>


>Hey, if she's allowed to plug, so am I :-) The 2nd edition of "CGI
>Programming with Perl" (O'Reilly of course) is pretty bloody good

Duh, its an O'Reilly. ;)

Also L Steins Network Programming with Perl is a good book. I'm only a
chunk into it buts its a good read on its own and an even better one
if your not from a Unix background.

Dean
--
Profanity is the one language all programmers understand.
   ---  Anon

Re: Perl Books

[Nathan Torkington]

Elaine -HFB- Ashton writes:
> On the plus side, Addison-Wesley has a new CGI Perl book coming out in
> early February that should be a major improvement in this particular
> genre.

Hey, if she's allowed to plug, so am I :-) The 2nd edition of "CGI
Programming with Perl" (O'Reilly of course) is pretty bloody good.  I
was midway through writing a CGI class when I got a tech-review copy
of the book, and it was what I was going to teach and then some more.
I like that :-)

Nat

Re: Perl Books

[Elaine -HFB- Ashton]

Robin Szemeti [[EMAIL PROTECTED]] quoth:
*>
*>no one ever said the buying public were intelligent ...

Well, people rise to meet expectations too. There is precious little in
the way of good CGI books with a practical slant to them out there so out
of the lot of them, this is probably one of the best. The same principle
applies to Matt's famous archive...lots of people bitching and not much
else.

*>in fact it has been said (by some famoose newspaper tycoon ISTR) that no
*>one ever lost money by underestimating the intelligence of their
*>readership.

That would have been Mr. Hearst whose empire is but a mere shadow of what
it once was. If you treat people like idiots, that's all you get are
idiots.

On the plus side, Addison-Wesley has a new CGI Perl book coming out in
early February that should be a major improvement in this particular
genre.

e.

Re: Perl Books

[Robert Shiels]

> On Wed, Jan 31, 2001 at 02:32:21PM +, Struan Donald wrote:
> >
> > er... this unweldy thing would seem to be it:
> >
> > http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/browse/-/4045/107-2581489-8245353

Looks like the 2nd edition of the camel book is smaller and more expensive
than the 3rd. What a bargain!

/Robert

Re: Perl Books

[Robin Szemeti]

On Wed, 31 Jan 2001, you wrote:
 
> > It's at 
> 
> Crickey!  That book by Ms Castro that's been slated everywhere is at
> number 5!!!

no one ever said the buying public were intelligent ...

in fact it has been said (by some famoose newspaper tycoon ISTR) that no
one ever lost money by underestimating the intelligence of their
readership.

-- 
Robin Szemeti

The box said "requires windows 95 or better"
So I installed Linux!

Re: Perl Books

[Robin Houston]

On Wed, Jan 31, 2001 at 02:32:21PM +, Struan Donald wrote:
> 
> er... this unweldy thing would seem to be it:
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/browse/-/4045/107-2581489-8245353

A handy hint for amazon URLs: you can knock off the long number
on the end, and the thing will still work. 

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/browse/-/4045


The same trick works for any amazon URL.
This has been a public service announcement.

 .robin.

-- 
Satan, oscillate my metallic sonatas!

Re: Perl Books

[Dominic Mitchell]

On Wed, Jan 31, 2001 at 09:32:48AM -0500, Dave Cross wrote:
> At Wed, 31 Jan 2001 14:28:25 +, Dominic Mitchell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > On Wed, Jan 31, 2001 at 09:24:20AM -0500, Dave Cross wrote:
> > > Here's an interesting page[1]
> > 
> > Have a URL for that, guv?
> 
> Bugger. 
> 
> It's at 

Crickey!  That book by Ms Castro that's been slated everywhere is at
number 5!!!

-Dom

Re: Perl Books

[Dave Cross]

At Wed, 31 Jan 2001 14:28:25 +, Dominic Mitchell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Wed, Jan 31, 2001 at 09:24:20AM -0500, Dave Cross wrote:
> > Here's an interesting page[1]
> 
> Have a URL for that, guv?

Bugger. 

It's at 

Dave...

Re: Perl Books

[Struan Donald]

* at 31/01 14:28 + Dominic Mitchell said:
> On Wed, Jan 31, 2001 at 09:24:20AM -0500, Dave Cross wrote:
> > Here's an interesting page[1]
> 
> Have a URL for that, guv?

er... this unweldy thing would seem to be it:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/browse/-/4045/107-2581489-8245353

struan

Re: Perl Books

[Dominic Mitchell]

On Wed, Jan 31, 2001 at 09:24:20AM -0500, Dave Cross wrote:
> Here's an interesting page[1]

Have a URL for that, guv?

-Dom

Re: Perl Books

[Michael Stevens]

On Wed, Jan 31, 2001 at 09:24:20AM -0500, Dave Cross wrote:
> Here's an interesting page[1] it shows the top 100 best selling Perl
> books at Amazon. Obviously I was most interesting in seeing where I

url?

Michael

Re: Perl Books

[Nathan Torkington]

Elaine -HFB- Ashton writes:
> It's a copy of all the refereed papers as I recall, not the tutorials.
> It's tape bound and has Conway's Perligata Talk among others. 

What Elaine said.  It's the book we handed out to TPC attendees in
2000, containing the refereed papers.

Nat

Re: Perl Books

[Elaine -HFB- Ashton]

Dean S Wilson [[EMAIL PROTECTED]] quoth:
*>
*>Proceedings of the Perl Conference 4.0
*>I didn't get to go to that conference so can anyone who did go and
*>knows anything about this tell me if it contains details on the talks
*>and similar?

It's a copy of all the refereed papers as I recall, not the tutorials.
It's tape bound and has Conway's Perligata Talk among others. 

e.