Re: Religion
On Sat, 9 Jun 2001, Matthew Byng-Maddick wrote: On Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 07:44:40PM +0200, Philip Newton wrote: Which reminds me of something I read in the PuTTY FAQ: Question: Would you like me to register you a snappier domain name? The PuTTY web page is hard to find. Answer: No, it isn't. You type putty into Google and it's the very first thing that comes back. How true. Typical of Simon Tatham. :-) Anyway, chiark isn't that hard to remember, and greenend is just due to living on Green End Road on Cambridge (except that chiark doesn't...) *grin* L.
Re: Religion (was Re: M$ SQueaLServer)
Greg McCarroll wrote: * Philip Newton ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: AFAIK Samba implements the SMB protocol, which is the native resource (file, printer, ...) sharing protocol of Windows. So if you have Windows, you've already got an SMB client and server running. for the same reasons people install apache on windows when they already have personal web server running ;-) Well, PWS isn't part of the operating system. (Let's not talk about MSIE in this context.) Compare it, maybe, to NFS under Unix which is sometimes in the kernel -- why run usermode NFS ported from somewhere else if the kernel speaks it already? Cheers, philip -- Philip Newton [EMAIL PROTECTED] All opinions are my own, not my employer's. If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
Re: Religion (was Re: M$ SQueaLServer)
* Philip Newton ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: Greg McCarroll wrote on Freitag, 8. Juni 2001 11:11 And some pieces of software just wont be able to be plugged in - why can't i run Samba on Windows? Why would you want to? * in a heterogeneous network i may want to standardise on a single SMB implementation so that logs, config, etc. are in the same format * SAMBA offers functionality beyond that of the windows implementation, for instance i remember noting that you could link a shared ``printer'' definition to an executable, i added a little bit of hacking, a poor ps2html convertor and a webserver and i had a nice little document storage/archiving system, that people could simply print to * bugs/security holes may not be solved as quickly in MS's version * i may be an open source zealot and want to know what is running on my machine down to each line of code (shame about the rest of the OS on this point) * its my computer and i should be able to run what software/services i want and not be locked in AFAIK Samba implements the SMB protocol, which is the native resource (file, printer, ...) sharing protocol of Windows. So if you have Windows, you've already got an SMB client and server running. for the same reasons people install apache on windows when they already have personal web server running ;-) Sounds a bit like How can I port MKS's korn shell to Unix? Is it possible?. Well, maybe the analogy is not so hot, but it's the best I can think of. but if you have the source and some time you can, and you may do it for similar reasons to the ones i stated above Greg -- Greg McCarrollhttp://217.34.97.146/~gem/
Re: Religion (was Re: M$ SQueaLServer)
* Jonathan Peterson ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: At the end of the day, the simple fact is that Windows 2000 crashes more frequently than *n[ui]x does -- this surely is unquestioned fact. I just questioned it. Win2k appears to be a very nice OS, although I've never used it at the server end. It may have all sorts of scalability issues and general crapnesses but I've not seen any evidence that it (or NT 4 for that matter) crashed more than Unix. There appear to be near infinite numbers of people who will testify that they worked in some huge IT place and all the NT servers were rebooted daily and all the nix machines had been running since 1988 with no reboots. There are just as many people who will say that they worked in similar environments where both systems hardly ever needed to be rebooted. I've known banks (GS) where solaris machines were rebooted daily or weekly. As for my very limited experience, neither Solaris nor NT crash during normal use as server platforms. I've known NT screw up during some hardware installs and some application installs. But then I've known Solaris do the same for some application installs. Well here are some reasons why i prefer UNIX to Windows * for servers, they are pretty much personal reasons and i'm sure not everyone agrees with them. * GUI I really don't want to have a server running a GUI, it adds at least some overhead, encourages people to `work on the server' and as its an additional process may add additional security concerns. While its possible (at least it was) to configure NT not to have a GUI, the whole toolset is designed to have a GUI and GUI tools available. So with Windows you are pretty much stuck with it, with UNIX, X isn't tightly integrated into the OS. * Mature Server Software Windows leads the world in desktop software, however it doesn't have as much mature server side software, and i'm not just talking about server processes, i'm thinking about Cron, Procmail, Perl, etc. The software that you use to administer and carry out processing with is just as important on a server as your httpd. Windows simply doesn't have as much mature software available on it, and when software is ported from UNIX it often suffers in functionality (e.g. Perl and fork). * There is only one Windows Imagine if every car manufacturor decided to use acme car alarm 2000, car thieves would love it. They'd get a simple acme car alarm disabler kit and off they'd go. This is what is starting to happen with Windows and it will continue to happen. I don't want to be as easy to hack as every other machine on the planet and be part of that great big red bullseye. When the Internet Worm came about it was possible due to there being 2 major types of system mostly configured in the same way, I think we'll see another worm soon but it will attack 2 or 3 types of windows. * MSDN I'd love to read more about Win 32 programming, and the best source is MSDN but it costs too much! Why for once can't they do the right thing and let this information be available to all. Ok, I've just checked and it appears that more information is now available on the web for free, but it wasn't like this a while ago. * DLLs Trust me I'm know what I'm doing - a windows install process changing your DLLs for you. There is entirely to much DLL upgrading for my liking at every possible chance with Windows software/service pack. I don't believe that this can really lead to a stable system. * Red Box vs. Blue Box I want the servers to look different from the desktops, I don't want the head accountant telling the CEO that his son is a wiz on windows and he can go and tweak our server for us. I don't want the requisitions officer to purchase from the same supplier of desktop hardware for server hardware. I just want them to be different. * MS Windows running MS IIS and MS Exchange using MS I do not believe that MS can be the best programmers of ... operating systems databases internet servers mail servers They are good at company structure, but surely they cannot position there company to be the best at everything on a level playing field. And thats just it, its not a level playing field, superior software will be hindered by the secret APIs, etc. And some pieces of software just wont be able to be plugged in - why can't i run Samba on Windows? Can I? I don't know but I doubt it will be easy. * SSH connecting through a cli interface from a remote location where you have limited bandwidth is much better than using a gui remote control tool. and because of windows GUI focus (see earlier GUI point) it simply will never support remote CLI connections as well. * No compiler Why can't there be a compiler? Please just a simple one, so that if i want to write some little program for myself I can do
Re: Religion (was Re: M$ SQueaLServer)
* Dean ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: There is entirely to much DLL upgrading for my liking at every possible chance with Windows software/service pack. I don't believe that this can really lead to a stable system. Win2k address a lot of these issues with its dll and system file control programs. If you change a dll that's needed and the replacement dll doesn't work then the change gets tagged as a failure and rolled back by the system. It seems to work reasonably well, we've had no major dll screw ups. how is this implemented? at filesystem level, i.e. spotting changes of files or via special install programs? will it work if some lunatic simple copies (or retores) a backup over the DLLs actually now that i mention it, time to mention the fact that although windows has a lot of software very little of it supports any concept of filesystems permission that has only been available since NT came about * No compiler Why can't there be a compiler? Please just a simple one, so that if i want to write some little program for myself I can do it there and then. Its not that much to ask, it would just mean that when you get a fresh windows box you dont have to go and waste time installing additional software, and there are other examples of this ... (You said this is about servers) Compilers on servers are a bad idea both from the security perspective and from a stability angle. I don't care how good a coder you are, your not writing code on the server. In a real production environment you need to test it and do change control. I have an issue with this since i got a phone call at 3am this morning after someone did just this. I only leave an interpreter on servers for my own convenience and even then i shouldn't. Of course if your server runs an interpreted language then yes you need it :) thats fine, but what should i do the development on? maybe it should at least be an option in the install process, and i don't mean an option asking Would you like Windows to grab your Credit Card number and order yet another expensive M$ product for you? It will be know trouble we can send the order when we connect to log other information about you and your installed software. Editor Wordpad :) calling wordpad an editor is as laughable as calling vi an editor ;-) Cron The at command or the task scheduler. fine, how do you run something everyday at 3am? -- Greg McCarrollhttp://217.34.97.146/~gem/
Re: Religion (was Re: M$ SQueaLServer)
* at 08/06 11:35 +0100 Robin Szemeti said:
On Fri, 08 Jun 2001, Greg McCarroll wrote:
calling wordpad an editor is as laughable as calling vi an editor ;-)
arrghh .. burn the heretic! ... speak brother, for the truth will out ..
have you been using [x{0,1]]emacs again ... ?
and thus comes the inevitable end[1] to all unix geek discussions...
struan
[1] or at least end to the bit not based on flames and blind prejudice
:)
Re: Religion (was Re: M$ SQueaLServer)
On Fri, 08 Jun 2001, Struan Donald wrote:
* at 08/06 11:35 +0100 Robin Szemeti said:
On Fri, 08 Jun 2001, Greg McCarroll wrote:
calling wordpad an editor is as laughable as calling vi an editor ;-)
arrghh .. burn the heretic! ... speak brother, for the truth will out ..
have you been using [x{0,1]]emacs again ... ?
and thus comes the inevitable end[1] to all unix geek discussions...
struan
[1] or at least end to the bit not based on flames and blind prejudice
pah! .. tis written in the scripture ... 'let he who hath one eye be
blessed' .. clearly the 'one eye' is a reference to the one 'i' in vi ..
its *obvious* innit ... I shall found my entire religion on this shadowy
fact wriiten by our lord himself ( or one of his followers, or perhaps
someone just mistranslated it .. or made it up ) however ... if anyone
questions me I shall explain that 'thats what faith is all about' and mark
them up for burning as well ...
--
Robin Szemeti
Redpoint Consulting Limited
Real Solutions For A Virtual World
Re: Religion (was Re: M$ SQueaLServer)
* at 08/06 11:54 +0100 Robin Szemeti said: pah! .. tis written in the scripture ... 'let he who hath one eye be blessed' .. clearly the 'one eye' is a reference to the one 'i' in vi .. its *obvious* innit ... I shall found my entire religion on this shadowy fact wriiten by our lord himself ( or one of his followers, or perhaps someone just mistranslated it .. or made it up ) however ... if anyone questions me I shall explain that 'thats what faith is all about' and mark them up for burning as well ... in future years this may be marked down as the dawning of the second dark age. struan
Re: Religion (was Re: M$ SQueaLServer)
* Struan Donald ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
* at 08/06 11:35 +0100 Robin Szemeti said:
On Fri, 08 Jun 2001, Greg McCarroll wrote:
calling wordpad an editor is as laughable as calling vi an editor ;-)
arrghh .. burn the heretic! ... speak brother, for the truth will out ..
have you been using [x{0,1]]emacs again ... ?
and thus comes the inevitable end[1] to all unix geek discussions...
No, we haven't taught the discussion to send mail yet.
--
Greg McCarrollhttp://217.34.97.146/~gem/
Re: Religion (was Re: M$ SQueaLServer)
Greg McCarroll wrote on Freitag, 8. Juni 2001 11:11 And some pieces of software just wont be able to be plugged in - why can't i run Samba on Windows? Why would you want to? AFAIK Samba implements the SMB protocol, which is the native resource (file, printer, ...) sharing protocol of Windows. So if you have Windows, you've already got an SMB client and server running. Sounds a bit like How can I port MKS's korn shell to Unix? Is it possible?. Well, maybe the analogy is not so hot, but it's the best I can think of. Cheers, Philip -- Philip Newton [EMAIL PROTECTED] All opinions are my own, not my employer's. If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
Re: Religion
Robin Szemeti wrote: [google] seems able to find the *right* thing .. many many times the thing I want is in the no1 spot Yes. google++, definitely. Its success is probably partly because it looks at how many links point to the page. If lots of people link to site X, then site X is probably (a) really great and trusted by lots of people, or (b) really bad but lots of people think it's great (M*tt's Scr*pt *rch*v*), so it'll show up further up. Which reminds me of something I read in the PuTTY FAQ: Question: Would you like me to register you a snappier domain name? The PuTTY web page is hard to find. Answer: No, it isn't. You type putty into Google and it's the very first thing that comes back. How true. Cheers, Philip -- Philip Newton [EMAIL PROTECTED] All opinions are my own, not my employer's. If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
Re: Religion (was Re: M$ SQueaLServer)
On Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 10:11:13AM +0100, Greg McCarroll wrote: * GUI I really don't want to have a server running a GUI, it adds at least some overhead, encourages people to `work on the server' and as its an additional process may add additional security concerns. And huge numbers of people think it's neat to run the GL screen saver using 100% CPU, disabling interrupts so much the system clock drifts by ~10min/hour While its possible (at least it was) to configure NT not to have a GUI, the whole toolset is designed to have a GUI and GUI tools available. So with Windows you are pretty much stuck with it, with UNIX, X isn't tightly integrated into the OS. Remote text-based access ... without additional software. * Mature Server Software Windows leads the world in desktop software, however it doesn't have as much mature server side software, and i'm not just talking about server processes, i'm thinking about Cron, Procmail, Perl, etc. And what there is, is integrated with the o/s (also applies to GUI): if the service goes AWOL it takes out the whole O/S. * No compiler Why can't there be a compiler? Please just a simple one, so that if i want to write some little program for myself I can do it there and then. Its not that much to ask, it would just mean that when you get ActiveState Perl lets you do all the damage you need shurely :-) a fresh windows box you dont have to go and waste time installing additional software, and there are other examples of this ... VNC vi.exe/emacs.exe bash.exe Win/SSH Anti-virus s/ware Intrusion Detection s/ware Lynx Editor Scripting language Cron * Final reason (for now) I don't trust them. Amen -- Chris Benson
Re: Religion
On Sat, 2 Jun 2001 19:54:04 +0100, Robin Szemeti wrote: however Sir Arnold Bax [1] got slightly closer to the truth: One should try everything once, except incest and folk dancing nuff said. [1] oft, incorrectly, attributed to George Bernard Shaw (who said it also, but later) Bah, I had it in my sig file (now amended) as Sir Thomas Beecham. However, see the bottom of http://www.paston.co.uk/ukppg/kempsmen.html for a bit of investigation. Incidentally, why won't AltaVista find any pages containing arnold bax? (or arnold, or bax, for that matter) -- Peter Haworth [EMAIL PROTECTED] Even VB programmers ridicule VB programmers. -- Simon Wistow
Re: Religion
On 06/06/2001 at 10:47 +0100, Peter Haworth wrote: On Sat, 2 Jun 2001 19:54:04 +0100, Robin Szemeti wrote: however Sir Arnold Bax [1] got slightly closer to the truth: One should try everything once, except incest and folk dancing Bah, I had it in my sig file (now amended) as Sir Thomas Beecham. However, see the bottom of http://www.paston.co.uk/ukppg/kempsmen.html for a bit of investigation. Argh! Paston Chase! Norwich! Make the memories stop, Daddy! On the day of the last general election I saw the May Day morris men outside Norwich Cathedral. Odd juxtaposition if you ask me. Turns out it was this lot. (There was a surprisingly big group of people, considering how early in the morning it was.) Incidentally, why won't AltaVista find any pages containing arnold bax? (or arnold, or bax, for that matter) I think you'll find everyone's using Google these days, cos it's not shit. AV looks borked to me. -- :: paul :: 'this incredibly cool hands-on :: bongo drum thing isn't easy.' dadadodo
Re: Religion
On Wed, 06 Jun 2001, Paul Mison wrote: On 06/06/2001 at 10:47 +0100, Peter Haworth wrote: On Sat, 2 Jun 2001 19:54:04 +0100, Robin Szemeti wrote: however Sir Arnold Bax [1] got slightly closer to the truth: One should try everything once, except incest and folk dancing Bah, I had it in my sig file (now amended) as Sir Thomas Beecham. However, see the bottom of http://www.paston.co.uk/ukppg/kempsmen.html for a bit of investigation. yeah ... Beecham .. famous bloke .. his 'powders' are crap though :) Argh! Paston Chase! Norwich! Make the memories stop, Daddy! On the day of the last general election I saw the May Day morris men outside Norwich Cathedral. Odd juxtaposition if you ask me. Turns out it was this lot. (There was a surprisingly big group of people, considering how early in the morning it was.) why do you find it strange .. Morrismen are odd to start with, the fact that they get up early in the morning too should comea s no surprise ... Incidentally, why won't AltaVista find any pages containing arnold bax? (or arnold, or bax, for that matter) I think you'll find everyone's using Google these days, cos it's not shit. AV looks borked to me. because, unlike something actually useful, AV only indexes words in its dictionary. since bax (although semantically significant) is not in its dictioanary it don;t find it. pile of shit. Google is oodlsss better. if you have a part number AE1233499 and you bung it in google, if its out there, it finds it. Altavista won't. basically AV isn't worth the electrons its written with. use gooogle -- Robin Szemeti Redpoint Consulting Limited Real Solutions For A Virtual World
Re: Religion
On Wed, 06 Jun 2001, Paul Mison wrote: why do you find it strange .. Morrismen are odd to start with, the fact that they get up early in the morning too should comea s no surprise ... I meant the crowd watching them. Didn't they have better things to do? blimey now that is odd .. (My excuse is that work was locked and they didn't give me a key. Which is silly, since if you have people who want to come in and work over the weekend, early in the morning or late at night, you should encourage them, right? No wonder the company has now died.) my word, a company run by clueballs, what a totally unique concept. ;) -- Robin Szemeti Redpoint Consulting Limited Real Solutions For A Virtual World
Re: Religion
On Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 11:27:39AM +0100, Robin Szemeti wrote: because, unlike something actually useful, AV only indexes words in its dictionary. since bax (although semantically significant) is not in its dictioanary it don;t find it. pile of shit. Google is oodlsss better. if you have a part number AE1233499 and you bung it in google, if its out there, it finds it. Altavista won't. There was a Altavista project called Raging which they've now ditched by the looks of it. It was basically a complete look-n-feel-n-functionality rip-off of Google. It's a shame it's not up there any more because it was a model of brazen plagiarism. Anyhow, they have two different search engines -- the portal one and a 'text only' one which uses a different system: http://www.altavista.com/sites/search/text?raging=1 which *does* provide Bax hits... Paul -- Abandon desire
Re: Religion
On Thu, 07 Jun 2001, Paul Makepeace wrote: Anyhow, they have two different search engines -- the portal one and a 'text only' one which uses a different system: http://www.altavista.com/sites/search/text?raging=1 which *does* provide Bax hits... You're right .. it does .. however ... Altavista have just stuck their poxy banner infront of my eyes too many times .. given that google is nice and 'advert light' and low key .. and (although I give you the text-only version is better) altavista is a spamminng PITA .. i'll go for google everytime thanks ;)) the thing I really like about google is its uncanny ability not only to index everything .. but it seems able to find the *right* thing .. many many times the thing I want is in the no1 spot .. with AV its often on page 2, 3 or more ... -- Robin Szemeti Redpoint Consulting Limited Real Solutions For A Virtual World
Re: Religion
Jonathan Stowe [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Fri, 1 Jun 2001, Jonathan Peterson wrote: The actions and spirit of paganism (say, wearing leaves and dancing round a tree in May) are good healthy things to do. What with this and Piers' earlier revelations and the ever present Unixbeard I have this feeling that maybe we ought to get a Morris Side together for next years Jack in the Green festival in Hastings, No way on this planet am I morris dancing. Not that I object to watching other fools doing it, but exercise and me don't go well together. -- Piers Cawley www.iterative-software.com
Re: Religion
On Fri, 1 Jun 2001, Jonathan Peterson wrote: The actions and spirit of paganism (say, wearing leaves and dancing round a tree in May) are good healthy things to do. What with this and Piers' earlier revelations and the ever present Unixbeard I have this feeling that maybe we ought to get a Morris Side together for next years Jack in the Green festival in Hastings, This will be an amusing thing. /J\
Re: Religion
From: Jonathan Stowe [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Fri, 1 Jun 2001, Jonathan Peterson wrote: The actions and spirit of paganism (say, wearing leaves and dancing round a tree in May) are good healthy things to do. What with this and Piers' earlier revelations and the ever present Unixbeard I have this feeling that maybe we ought to get a Morris Side together for next years Jack in the Green festival in Hastings, This will be an amusing thing. Now I'd pay to see that :) Barbie.
Re: Religion
At 15:53 01/06/01 +0100, you wrote: Jon, thinking Paganism and Christianity should co-exist happily as do Art and Science. Yes, if only... http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0,,62-112765,00.html Alex Gough -- Today class, we'll be cloning extinct species to see how they taste.
Re: Religion
On Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 07:36:12PM +0100, Jonathan Stowe wrote: What with this and Piers' earlier revelations and the ever present Unixbeard I have this feeling that maybe we ought to get a Morris Side together for next years Jack in the Green festival in Hastings, Heh, I haven't done Morrising for ages. Count me in! Alex -- Four pints of milk, a turkey baster and some plastic tubing, that's all you need. http://www.cpio.org/~grimoire http://www.livejournal.com/users/diffrentcolours
Re: Religion
On Sat, 02 Jun 2001, Alex Page wrote: On Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 07:36:12PM +0100, Jonathan Stowe wrote: What with this and Piers' earlier revelations and the ever present Unixbeard I have this feeling that maybe we ought to get a Morris Side together for next years Jack in the Green festival in Hastings, Heh, I haven't done Morrising for ages. Count me in! mental image of Greg and Piers, having had a few pints, lurching towards each other in a corner dance singing 'hey ho fiddle eye ho' and brandishing morris sticks and handkerchiefs whilst jangling like a tambourine on heat hmmm .. maybe I need to see this. however Sir Arnold Bax [1] got slightly closer to the truth: One should try everything once, except incest and folk dancing nuff said. [1] oft, incorrectly, attributed to George Bernard Shaw (who said it also, but later) -- Robin Szemeti Redpoint Consulting Limited Real Solutions For A Virtual World
Re: Religion
* Robin Szemeti ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: On Sat, 02 Jun 2001, Alex Page wrote: On Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 07:36:12PM +0100, Jonathan Stowe wrote: What with this and Piers' earlier revelations and the ever present Unixbeard I have this feeling that maybe we ought to get a Morris Side together for next years Jack in the Green festival in Hastings, Heh, I haven't done Morrising for ages. Count me in! mental image of Greg and Piers, having had a few pints, lurching towards each other in a corner dance singing 'hey ho fiddle eye ho' and hey! you won't catch me performing some stupid historic ceremony, no siree. however i could be persuaded to drink a lot[1] and demand to walk a stretch of road with a bit of orange material round my neck and a little velvet apron round my waste - now thats a proper tradition! ;-) Greg [1] that wasn't fair as most traditional orange men are christians and coming from N.I. that generally means they drink very little, if at all. -- Greg McCarrollhttp://217.34.97.146/~gem/
Re: Religion
On Sat, 02 Jun 2001, Greg McCarroll wrote: Heh, I haven't done Morrising for ages. Count me in! mental image of Greg and Piers, having had a few pints, lurching towards each other in a corner dance singing 'hey ho fiddle eye ho' and hey! you won't catch me performing some stupid historic ceremony, no siree. however i could be persuaded to drink a lot[1] and demand to walk a stretch of road with a bit of orange material round my neck and a little velvet apron round my waste - now thats a proper tradition! ;-) I thought it was tying a piece of electrical flex around your kneck and putting an orange in your mouth .. or is that a different tradition? but I digress ... you've just reminded me of the Ali G episode when he visited Belfast ... ' ... what about if it was The Corrs ... all of them' ? -- Robin Szemeti Redpoint Consulting Limited Real Solutions For A Virtual World
Re: Religion
On Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 07:54:04PM +0100, Robin Szemeti wrote: On Sat, 02 Jun 2001, Alex Page wrote: On Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 07:36:12PM +0100, Jonathan Stowe wrote: What with this and Piers' earlier revelations and the ever present Unixbeard I have this feeling that maybe we ought to get a Morris Side together for next years Jack in the Green festival in Hastings, Heh, I haven't done Morrising for ages. Count me in! mental image of Greg and Piers, having had a few pints, lurching towards each other in a corner dance singing 'hey ho fiddle eye ho' and brandishing morris sticks and handkerchiefs whilst jangling like a tambourine on heat hmmm .. maybe I need to see this. And Alex P has indicated a participatory interest as well. Give me enough advance notice to get a plane ticket... :-) dha -- David H. Adler - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.panix.com/~dha/ You kids today have it easy. I remember when we had to write programs with an ice pick and index cards. Note: This joke is not Y2k compliant. Soon people will ask, What's an ice pick? - Lee Sharp
Re: Religion
From: Jonathan Peterson [EMAIL PROTECTED] I find it strange that the only surviving English/British religion, Paganism, is the target for being abolished. Is paganism a religion? Yes. Just because it isn't an organised religion with official buildings and the like or a registered charity it is relagated to the none of the above category. However, within the civil service it is the only such religion that has recognised religious holidays. Or does it refer to What Northern and central Europe did before the Romans? It was the religion in these here parts several hundreds of years before the Romans ever discovered this little island. Mayday was traditionally the fertility festival. It would make more sense to embrace the Pagan holidays seeing as they are celebrated more evenly throughout the year. Plus they don't glorify death and have a healthy celebration for life. This is all true. But Christian festivals are for the most part intellectualised versions of the non-christian ones they replaced. Easter is a fertility festival. Eh? Nope it was an attempt by the Christian faith to remove every possible existance of any other religion in the provinces they conquered. It has still been happening in this century within Africa and South America. The holidays might happen at similar times, but their meanings are far from the same. All souls day is the same as Halloween All Souls Day is a celebration of all things good. Halloween is the romantised version of witchcraft being bad and tantamount to devil worshipping. Again an effort by the church to ridicule other religions. The actions and spirit of paganism (say, wearing leaves and dancing round a tree in May) are good healthy things to do. The cerebral aspects of paganism are daft (If I wear leaves and dance round a tree the tree spirit will make me more fertile). If you read up on it a bit more, you'll see that there's much more to it than that. And anyway why is that any more daft than someone going to a church and praying for God to make them fertile. They're just a person's belief, the fact they you choose to ridicule another's way acting on that belief only allows the church to perpetuate the ridicule that is placed on other religions. Faith is a very personal thing, whereas a religion dictating that other kinds of faith are bad or inferior only serves to belittle themselves IMO. Perhaps one of the reasons why the Pope is making such an effort to apologise for past persecutions. To the extent Christianity leaves one alone and replaces the other, I like it. I agree that at times it hasn't done a very good job of leaving alone. But nothing's perfect... What like the Crusades? Jon, thinking Paganism and Christianity should co-exist happily as do Art and Science. One celebrates life, the other glorifies death. Art and Science are not so extreme. BTW I'm not a Pagan, just in case you're wondering. Barbie.
