Re: one liner

2001-01-11 Thread Shevek

On Mon, 8 Jan 2001, Michael Stevens wrote:

 I'm sure there are reasonable number of online manuals we'd all like
 printed copies of.
 
 Maybe we should see about costs for getting some of them printed fairly
 nicely and bound.

I think the uni offers such a service here.

--
Shevek
I am the Borg.
sub AUTOLOAD { ($s=$AUTOLOAD)=~s/.*:://; eval qq{ *$AUTOLOAD=$s
?sub {$s*{$s-1}} :sub {1}; }; goto $AUTOLOAD; } print {'4'}; 




Re: one liner

2001-01-11 Thread Michael Stevens

On Thu, Jan 11, 2001 at 12:24:59PM +, Shevek wrote:
 On Mon, 8 Jan 2001, Michael Stevens wrote:
 
  I'm sure there are reasonable number of online manuals we'd all like
  printed copies of.
  
  Maybe we should see about costs for getting some of them printed fairly
  nicely and bound.
 
 I think the uni offers such a service here.

What about us poor, benighted souls who aren't at a uni? :)



Re: one liner

2001-01-11 Thread Tony Bowden

On Mon, Jan 08, 2001 at 07:38:04PM +, Dave Cross wrote:
  Oh, and Amazon.com have the Learning Tk book at 90% off at the minute
  if anyone's interested ..
 That'll explain the increase in sales that Nat noted the other day then :)

Well, I expected one of their "Oops, we made a pricing error, so we can't
sell you the large quantity of the book you requested, but hey, we're nice
people, so we'll let you have one of them cheap instead" emails.

But they claim to have shipped them all. At 90% off. Which I like.

Tony
-- 
-
 Tony Bowden | Belfast, NI | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | www.tmtm.com | www.blackstar.co.uk
the woods are lovely, dark, and deep, but I have promises to keep
-



Re: one liner

2001-01-08 Thread Nathan Torkington

Michael Stevens writes:
 I'm sure there are reasonable number of online manuals we'd all like
 printed copies of.

Yeah, but if O'Reilly were to print them, you'd complain that the
book was nothing more than the online manual :-)

Nat



Re: one liner

2001-01-08 Thread Michael Stevens

On Mon, Jan 08, 2001 at 08:25:54AM -0700, Nathan Torkington wrote:
 Michael Stevens writes:
  I'm sure there are reasonable number of online manuals we'd all like
  printed copies of.
 Yeah, but if O'Reilly were to print them, you'd complain that the
 book was nothing more than the online manual :-)

Yes, but that's because you have such a good reputation for delivering
*more* than the online manual!

Michael



Re: one liner

2001-01-08 Thread Greg McCarroll

* Michael Stevens ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
 On Mon, Jan 08, 2001 at 08:25:54AM -0700, Nathan Torkington wrote:
  Michael Stevens writes:
   I'm sure there are reasonable number of online manuals we'd all like
   printed copies of.
  Yeah, but if O'Reilly were to print them, you'd complain that the
  book was nothing more than the online manual :-)
 
 Yes, but that's because you have such a good reputation for delivering
 *more* than the online manual!
 

yip they have the pretty cover animals as well ;-)

-- 
Greg McCarroll  http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net



Print on Demand (Re: one liner)

2001-01-08 Thread Andy Wardley

On Jan 8,  8:25am, Nathan Torkington wrote:
 Yeah, but if O'Reilly were to print them, you'd complain that the
 book was nothing more than the online manual :-)

Hmmm.  I can see it working if you take a slightly different
perspective on it.

Let's say O'Reilly acts as a content provider.  In addition to their
existing role as a regular book publisher, they also collect and edit
content in the form of FAQs, manuals, other documentation, etc.  They
make it freely available online for those who want it.  This would be
all the content that isn't up to scratch, complete or unique enough to
warrant publishing as a regular book.

Joe Random Hacker browses online, finds something he likes, and clicks
twice to order it (one click being a patent infringement, of course :-)
Content gets sent to his local print centre (something like an existing
copy bureaux, run by a company like, oh, I don't know, someone like Canon
perhaps?) where it gets printed, bound and posted for next day delivery.

For an extra charge a guy on a Moped would risk life and limb dodging
London taxis to get it on his desk within the hour.  Do you want fries
with that?

The author, publisher and printer all get a cut of the profit.  Rinse and
repeat.

I should add that this isn't a new idea.  POD[1] has been floating around
Canon for a while (oops, I hope I'm not broadcasting company secrets, oh
well :-) but no-one's been sufficiently interested to do anything about
it as far as I know.  Most probably because they haven't figured out where
the content would come from.  But with the right partnership(s) between
authors/publishers/printers, the idea might fly.


A

[1] that's Printing On Demand, not Plain Old Documentation.

-- 
Andy Wardley [EMAIL PROTECTED]   Signature regenerating.  Please remain seated.
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]   For a good time: http://www.kfs.org/~abw/



Re: one liner

2001-01-08 Thread Nathan Torkington

I wrote:
 I'm shit-scared of talking about books in progress, in case I jinx
 them.

We also have another Perl/Tk book coming out.  It's more advanced than
"Learning ..." and, we hope, learns from the criticism levelled at
that book.  In particular, look for examples.

Nat



Re: one liner

2001-01-08 Thread David H. Adler

On Mon, Jan 08, 2001 at 04:44:53PM +, Greg McCarroll wrote:

[re: ORA]

 yip they have the pretty cover animals as well ;-)

I would just like to point out at this juncture that monkeys are
funny.

cheers,

dha

-- 
David H. Adler - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.panix.com/~dha/
Perl should only be studied as a second language.  A good first
language would be English. - Larry Wall



Re: one liner

2001-01-08 Thread Tony Bowden

On Mon, Jan 08, 2001 at 10:14:59AM -0700, Nathan Torkington wrote:
 We also have another Perl/Tk book coming out.  It's more advanced than
 "Learning ..." and, we hope, learns from the criticism levelled at
 that book.  In particular, look for examples.

Oh, and Amazon.com have the Learning Tk book at 90% off at the minute
if anyone's interested ..

Tony
-- 
-
 Tony Bowden | Belfast, NI | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | www.tmtm.com | www.blackstar.co.uk
 girlboys may nothing more than boygirls need
-



Re: one liner

2001-01-08 Thread Dave Cross

On Mon, Jan 08, 2001 at 07:22:31PM +, Tony Bowden ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) 
wrote:
 On Mon, Jan 08, 2001 at 10:14:59AM -0700, Nathan Torkington wrote:
  We also have another Perl/Tk book coming out.  It's more advanced than
  "Learning ..." and, we hope, learns from the criticism levelled at
  that book.  In particular, look for examples.
 
 Oh, and Amazon.com have the Learning Tk book at 90% off at the minute
 if anyone's interested ..

That'll explain the increase in sales that Nat noted the other day then :)

Dave...

-- 
http://www.dave.org.uk | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | [EMAIL PROTECTED]

plugData Munging with Perl
http://www.manning.com/cross//plug



Re: one liner

2001-01-07 Thread Dean S Wilson

-Original Message-
From: Nathan Torkington [EMAIL PROTECTED]


Dean S Wilson writes:
 Has anyone tried Linux glade recently? Is it stable with perl yet?

The TPJ that's stalled at the printers has a fantuckingfastic article
on getting started with Glade and Perl/Gtk.


I now hate you.

Dean
--
Profanity is the one language all programmers understand.
   ---  Anon




Re: one liner

2001-01-06 Thread Michael Stevens

On Sat, Jan 06, 2001 at 10:12:37PM +, Greg McCarroll wrote:
 Ok, we are not (void) but we are pretty close so here is a one liner that
 hopefully will provote discussion 
 the only thing that gives potential for the marketing of a language is the
 projects that are achieved using it and java has a hell of a lot more cool 
 projects than perl
 

What are these mysterious cool java projects that no-one's been telling
me about?

 
 /me is thinking of a new london.pm project called ``ignore the perl 6 body
 and parallel to it lets create our own perl propoganda/marketting/best 
 practice/for the good fo the language movement''  

I think the best thing people can do for the language is create good things
and modules and whatever using it.



Re: one liner

2001-01-06 Thread Dean S Wilson

-Original Message-
From: Michael Stevens [EMAIL PROTECTED]


Greg are you trolling? If so let me play ;)

 the only thing that gives potential for the marketing of a language
is the
 projects that are achieved using it and java has a hell of a lot
more cool
 projects than perl

What are these mysterious cool java projects that no-one's been
telling
me about?


Fortay's a good example. A Java IDE written in Java, and under Linux
it's pretty quick even on 64 MB ram.


IBM developerworks and Alphaworks have tftp and dhcp servers in Java.
I wouldn't run them though :)

I think the best thing people can do for the language is create good
things
and modules and whatever using it.

I agree but I also think that this is one of the problems, the only
people who see the modules are other perl coders. I'm not saying that
modules are a bad thing or a waste of effort, I'd hate to think about
writing the code for half of the modules I use on a regular basis but
the only people who really understand and use them are perl coders,
people who know that perl is good. I think Greg means making something
a little more visible, How many netusers see the powered by python
logo on mailman each day? Whats our answer to that? Slashcode?

Plying devils advocate is fun.
Dean
--
Profanity is the one language all programmers understand.
   ---  Anon




Re: one liner

2001-01-06 Thread Dean S Wilson

-Original Message-
From: Greg McCarroll [EMAIL PROTECTED]


Ok, we are not (void) but we are pretty close so here is a one liner
that
hopefully will provote discussion 


I left (void) and you'l not take me back alive! Outlook canne take the
strain!

the only thing that gives potential for the marketing of a language
is the
projects that are achieved using it and java has a hell of a lot more
cool
projects than perl

I think that marketing is the key term in this mail. Java has a good
marketing team and is being taught in universities at the moment,
nothing better than having a lot of fresh faced advocates being
spawned at the end of each term.

Dean (Playing both sides in this one)

--
Profanity is the one language all programmers understand.
   ---  Anon




Re: one liner

2001-01-06 Thread alex

On Sat, 6 Jan 2001, Dean S Wilson wrote:
 I left (void) and you'l not take me back alive! Outlook canne take the
 strain!

i think london.pm is busier than (void) nowadays, a lot of the
thought-provoking people left

-- 
Snack pastries are dramatic when shapes are combined





Re: one liner

2001-01-06 Thread alex

On Sat, 6 Jan 2001, Dean S Wilson wrote:
 I agree but I also think that this is one of the problems, the only
 people who see the modules are other perl coders.

indeed.  there are few end-user perl apps.

in my eyes Perl is not particularly good for programs written by one
person, or in small groups working closely together, or by highly
experienced programmers.  maybe this is why you don't end up with many
good, generalised Perl applications.  at the least, Perl development needs
to be well managed, perhaps a little more than most.

perhaps perl6 will solve this, but it seems to me that Perl programmers
have so much choice, that every Perl hacker uses a different sub-language
within Perl.  for example, i dislike Perl with map()'s that throw away
return values, and most uses of unless(), but do plenty to annoy other
programers - for example strange data hiding techniques.

well that's all negative, so i'll go on to say why Perl is the best
language for me...  i believe that Perl allows human expression better
than any other language i've heard of.  most importantly, i can get things
working fast.  i can't use c++ to create art because there is too much
time between the idea and execution - so the idea gets stale before it can
be realised.  with Perl, the creative process continues while i'm in the
coding phase; in fact, that's the only phase i have for my personal
projects...

also the amount of choice allows me to write programs that match my way of
thinking.  i can write a large program and be confident that it will work
first time (apart from syntax errors), because i have been able to
construct the program in my own terms.  i have control over my medium.

the impressive data munging capabilities allow me to create art quickly
and expressively, that has direct 'influences' from the external world...
for example, creating audio based on the structure of motorways taken from
GPS data, or from mailing lists.

and of course the community - CPAN is very useful but exists because of a
sharing and (mostly) friendly community.  if i'm going to use other
people's code in my art this is a highly important point.

so to me, Perl is the most human computer language, and so the most
suitable language for computer art.

alex

ps Tangram and Template Toolkit are great!

-- 
Snack pastries are dramatic when shapes are combined






Re: one liner

2001-01-06 Thread Paul Makepeace

On Sat, Jan 06, 2001 at 10:12:37PM +, Greg McCarroll wrote:
 the only thing that gives potential for the marketing of a language is the
 projects that are achieved using it and java has a hell of a lot more cool 
 projects than perl

I've been playing with Akopia ne' MiniVend/Tallyman which of course is
written in perl and certainly from a functionality point of view it's
very, very cool and is a serious-weight app.

I haven't dug into its internals yet but it looks pretty sophisticated
with shades of Template.pm even.

http://developer.akopia.com/

I would definitely count this as a Perl success story.

Like it not, Matt Wright's stuff is a perl success story if
only from a bums-on-seats PoV...

Paul