Re: [Lsr] 答复: Moving Forward [Re: Flooding Reduction Draft Redux]

2019-02-11 Thread Huzhibo
Support to promote the centralized and distributed solutions in two separated 
drafts.

Best regards,
Zhibo
-Original Message-
From: Lsr [mailto:lsr-boun...@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Dongjie (Jimmy)
Sent: Monday, February 11, 2019 4:47 PM
To: Lizhenbin ; Christian Hopps ; 
lsr@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Lsr] 答复: Moving Forward [Re: Flooding Reduction Draft Redux]

Support moving forward with the centralized and distributed solutions specified 
in separated drafts. As discussed in previous mails, the procedure and protocol 
extensions needed for the two modes could be different, and a particular 
network may only want to use one mode.

As for the centralized solution, maybe it could be refined with the advantage 
of the centralized part in both existing drafts.

Best regards,
Jie

> -Original Message-
> From: Lsr [mailto:lsr-boun...@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Lizhenbin
> Sent: Monday, February 04, 2019 5:36 PM
> To: Christian Hopps ; lsr@ietf.org
> Subject: [Lsr] 答复: Moving Forward [Re: Flooding Reduction Draft Redux]
> 
> Hi Chris & Acee,
> 
> > - Jan 2, 2018 Publication: draft-li-dynamic-flooding and
> drfat-li-dynamic-flooding-isis
> >   published centralized solution.
> >
> > - Mar 5, 2018 Publication: draft-cc-isis-flooding-reduction and
> draft-cc-ospf-flooding-reduction
> >   published distributed solution
> 
> Thanks for your summary we know the fact that at beginning there was 
> not any confliction between the two drafts.
> 
> 
> > - Jun 28, 2018 draft-li-dynamic-flooding-05 published (2 authors)
> >   - *SMALL CHANGE TO SUPPORT DISTRIBUTED ALGORITHM*.
> >   - Does not specify distributed algorithm only how to indicate one 
> > in use,
> small change.
> 
> I do not think it is a small change. It is to introduced the totally 
> new solution which was already defined in the other existing draft. It 
> is not an appropariate behavior and the root cause of the potential 
> confliction.
> 
> 
> I also think the distributed solution includes more than the 
> algorithms defined in the draft-cc-lsr-flooding-reduction-00  and the 
> overlapped signallings  defined in the 
> draft-cc-lsr-flooding-reduction-00/draft-li-dynamic-flooding-03. Since 
> the co-authors could not merge the draft, though the existing 
> suggestion proposed is try to separate the two drafts, there is still 
> overlap on the distributed solution between the two drafts which may 
> be the source of continuous confliction in the future. In order to 
> avoid the situation I would like to propose following
> suggestions:
> - move both the two drafts forward in parallel keeping 
> draft-li-dynamic-flooding focus on the centralized solution and 
> draft-cc-lsr-flooding-reduction on the distributed solution.
> - draft-li-dynamic-flooding can keep on refining the centralized 
> solution without mentioning distibuted solutions.
> - draft-cc-lsr-flooding-reduction can keep on refining the distributed 
> solutions.
> For the sigalling which can be shared by the two modes, the draft can 
> indicate the distributed solutions reuse the signalling defined in 
> draft-li-dynamic-flooding without defining new signalling.
> - both drafts change the draft names to reflect different solutions 
> without causing confusion.
> 
> 
> Thanks & Regards,
> Zhenbin (Robin)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 发件人: Lsr [lsr-boun...@ietf.org] 代表 Christian Hopps [cho...@chopps.org]
> 发送时间: 2019年2月1日 20:25
> 收件人: lsr@ietf.org
> 抄送: cho...@chopps.org
> 主题: [Lsr] Moving Forward [Re: Flooding Reduction Draft Redux]
> 
> Summary of where we are at with dynamic flooding reduction:
> 
>  - We have a well written original work that came first and described 
> the problems as well as a TLVs to allow for a centralized solution 
> (draft-li-dyanmic-flooding). We do not need to standardize the 
> centralized algorithm.
> 
>  - A small change to this work allowed for distributed algorithms and 
> for outside work on distributed algorithms to continue in parallel.
> 
>  - We have another original work that started primarily as a distributed 
> algorithm
>(draft-cc-ospf-flooding-reduction)
> 
>  - Finally we also have:
>- Cross-pollination of ideas.
>- Failed attempts at merging.
>- An authors list "Arms-Race".
> 
> Moving forward:
> 
> - During IETF 103 I proposed we have no conflict if we:
> 
>1) adopt draft-li-lsr-dyanmic-flooding as the base WG document.
>2) have authors of draft-cc-lsr-flooding-reduction work on a 
> distributed algorithm as they started with.
> 
> - Acee agreed during the meeting (as chair) that this was the best way 
> forward.
> We had some agreement form 

Re: [Lsr] 答复: Moving Forward [Re: Flooding Reduction Draft Redux]

2019-02-11 Thread Dongjie (Jimmy)
Support moving forward with the centralized and distributed solutions specified 
in separated drafts. As discussed in previous mails, the procedure and protocol 
extensions needed for the two modes could be different, and a particular 
network may only want to use one mode.

As for the centralized solution, maybe it could be refined with the advantage 
of the centralized part in both existing drafts.

Best regards,
Jie

> -Original Message-
> From: Lsr [mailto:lsr-boun...@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Lizhenbin
> Sent: Monday, February 04, 2019 5:36 PM
> To: Christian Hopps ; lsr@ietf.org
> Subject: [Lsr] 答复: Moving Forward [Re: Flooding Reduction Draft Redux]
> 
> Hi Chris & Acee,
> 
> > - Jan 2, 2018 Publication: draft-li-dynamic-flooding and
> drfat-li-dynamic-flooding-isis
> >   published centralized solution.
> >
> > - Mar 5, 2018 Publication: draft-cc-isis-flooding-reduction and
> draft-cc-ospf-flooding-reduction
> >   published distributed solution
> 
> Thanks for your summary we know the fact that at beginning there was not any
> confliction between the two drafts.
> 
> 
> > - Jun 28, 2018 draft-li-dynamic-flooding-05 published (2 authors)
> >   - *SMALL CHANGE TO SUPPORT DISTRIBUTED ALGORITHM*.
> >   - Does not specify distributed algorithm only how to indicate one in use,
> small change.
> 
> I do not think it is a small change. It is to introduced the totally new 
> solution which
> was already defined in the other existing draft. It is not an appropariate 
> behavior
> and the root cause of the potential confliction.
> 
> 
> I also think the distributed solution includes more than the algorithms 
> defined in
> the draft-cc-lsr-flooding-reduction-00  and the overlapped signallings  
> defined
> in the draft-cc-lsr-flooding-reduction-00/draft-li-dynamic-flooding-03. Since 
> the
> co-authors could not merge the draft, though the existing suggestion proposed 
> is
> try to separate the two drafts, there is still overlap on the distributed 
> solution
> between the two drafts which may be the source of continuous confliction in 
> the
> future. In order to avoid the situation I would like to propose following
> suggestions:
> - move both the two drafts forward in parallel keeping 
> draft-li-dynamic-flooding
> focus on the centralized solution and draft-cc-lsr-flooding-reduction on the
> distributed solution.
> - draft-li-dynamic-flooding can keep on refining the centralized solution 
> without
> mentioning distibuted solutions.
> - draft-cc-lsr-flooding-reduction can keep on refining the distributed 
> solutions.
> For the sigalling which can be shared by the two modes, the draft can 
> indicate the
> distributed solutions reuse the signalling defined in 
> draft-li-dynamic-flooding
> without defining new signalling.
> - both drafts change the draft names to reflect different solutions without
> causing confusion.
> 
> 
> Thanks & Regards,
> Zhenbin (Robin)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 发件人: Lsr [lsr-boun...@ietf.org] 代表 Christian Hopps [cho...@chopps.org]
> 发送时间: 2019年2月1日 20:25
> 收件人: lsr@ietf.org
> 抄送: cho...@chopps.org
> 主题: [Lsr] Moving Forward [Re: Flooding Reduction Draft Redux]
> 
> Summary of where we are at with dynamic flooding reduction:
> 
>  - We have a well written original work that came first and described the
> problems as well as a TLVs to allow for a centralized solution
> (draft-li-dyanmic-flooding). We do not need to standardize the centralized
> algorithm.
> 
>  - A small change to this work allowed for distributed algorithms and for 
> outside
> work on distributed algorithms to continue in parallel.
> 
>  - We have another original work that started primarily as a distributed 
> algorithm
>(draft-cc-ospf-flooding-reduction)
> 
>  - Finally we also have:
>- Cross-pollination of ideas.
>- Failed attempts at merging.
>- An authors list "Arms-Race".
> 
> Moving forward:
> 
> - During IETF 103 I proposed we have no conflict if we:
> 
>1) adopt draft-li-lsr-dyanmic-flooding as the base WG document.
>2) have authors of draft-cc-lsr-flooding-reduction work on a distributed
> algorithm as they started with.
> 
> - Acee agreed during the meeting (as chair) that this was the best way 
> forward.
> We had some agreement form the floor as well.
> 
> - Any good ideas regarding the distribution of a centralized topology can be
> debated and added (with appropriate attribution) to the base document after
> we adopt one.
> 
> - This is what happens when we adopt a document as WG work, we work on it.
> 
> - The original authors of the distributed 

Re: [Lsr] 答复: Moving Forward [Re: Flooding Reduction Draft Redux]

2019-02-04 Thread Linda Dunbar
In favor of moving both drafts forward. 

Linda Dunbar

-Original Message-
From: Lsr [mailto:lsr-boun...@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Lizhenbin
Sent: Monday, February 04, 2019 3:36 AM
To: Christian Hopps ; lsr@ietf.org
Subject: [Lsr] 答复: Moving Forward [Re: Flooding Reduction Draft Redux]

Hi Chris & Acee,

> - Jan 2, 2018 Publication: draft-li-dynamic-flooding and 
> drfat-li-dynamic-flooding-isis
>   published centralized solution.
>
> - Mar 5, 2018 Publication: draft-cc-isis-flooding-reduction and 
> draft-cc-ospf-flooding-reduction
>   published distributed solution

Thanks for your summary we know the fact that at beginning there was not any 
confliction between the two drafts.


> - Jun 28, 2018 draft-li-dynamic-flooding-05 published (2 authors)
>   - *SMALL CHANGE TO SUPPORT DISTRIBUTED ALGORITHM*.
>   - Does not specify distributed algorithm only how to indicate one in use, 
> small change.

I do not think it is a small change. It is to introduced the totally new 
solution which was already defined in the other existing draft. It is not an 
appropariate behavior and the root cause of the potential confliction. 


I also think the distributed solution includes more than the algorithms defined 
in the draft-cc-lsr-flooding-reduction-00  and the overlapped signallings  
defined in the draft-cc-lsr-flooding-reduction-00/draft-li-dynamic-flooding-03. 
Since the co-authors could not merge the draft, though the existing suggestion 
proposed is try to separate the two drafts, there is still overlap on the 
distributed solution between the two drafts which may be the source of 
continuous confliction in the future. In order to avoid the situation I would 
like to propose following suggestions:
- move both the two drafts forward in parallel keeping 
draft-li-dynamic-flooding focus on the centralized solution and 
draft-cc-lsr-flooding-reduction on the distributed solution.
- draft-li-dynamic-flooding can keep on refining the centralized solution 
without mentioning distibuted solutions.
- draft-cc-lsr-flooding-reduction can keep on refining the distributed 
solutions. For the sigalling which can be shared by the two modes, the draft 
can indicate the distributed solutions reuse the signalling defined in 
draft-li-dynamic-flooding without defining new signalling. 
- both drafts change the draft names to reflect different solutions without 
causing confusion.


Thanks & Regards,
Zhenbin (Robin)

  




发件人: Lsr [lsr-boun...@ietf.org] 代表 Christian Hopps [cho...@chopps.org]
发送时间: 2019年2月1日 20:25
收件人: lsr@ietf.org
抄送: cho...@chopps.org
主题: [Lsr] Moving Forward [Re: Flooding Reduction Draft Redux]

Summary of where we are at with dynamic flooding reduction:

 - We have a well written original work that came first and described the 
problems as well as a TLVs to allow for a centralized solution 
(draft-li-dyanmic-flooding). We do not need to standardize the centralized 
algorithm.

 - A small change to this work allowed for distributed algorithms and for 
outside work on distributed algorithms to continue in parallel.

 - We have another original work that started primarily as a distributed 
algorithm
   (draft-cc-ospf-flooding-reduction)

 - Finally we also have:
   - Cross-pollination of ideas.
   - Failed attempts at merging.
   - An authors list "Arms-Race".

Moving forward:

- During IETF 103 I proposed we have no conflict if we:

   1) adopt draft-li-lsr-dyanmic-flooding as the base WG document.
   2) have authors of draft-cc-lsr-flooding-reduction work on a distributed 
algorithm as they started with.

- Acee agreed during the meeting (as chair) that this was the best way forward. 
We had some agreement form the floor as well.

- Any good ideas regarding the distribution of a centralized topology can be 
debated and added (with appropriate attribution) to the base document after we 
adopt one.

- This is what happens when we adopt a document as WG work, we work on it.

- The original authors of the distributed solution can continue to work on 
their distributed algorithm in a separate document which would also need 
standardization.

Does anyone see a serious problem with this path forward?

Thanks,
Chris & Acee.
LSR Chairs.

Christian Hopps  writes:

> We've had the authors of the individual conflicting drafts take a shot at 
> merging their work.
>
>This has failed.
>
> Here is the full history (which I also summarized during IETF103 as well). I 
> will send a second email discussing this.
>
> - Jan 2, 2018 Publication: draft-li-dynamic-flooding and 
> drfat-li-dynamic-flooding-isis
>   published centralized solution.
>
> - Mar 5, 2018 Publication: draft-cc-isis-flooding-reduction and 
> draft-cc-ospf-flooding-reduction
>   published distributed solution.
>   - mention of centralized solution asserting it is not good choice.
>
> - IETF 101 (Mar 2018)

Re: [Lsr] 答复: Moving Forward [Re: Flooding Reduction Draft Redux]

2019-02-04 Thread Christian Hopps


Lizhenbin  writes:


Hi Chris & Acee,


- Jan 2, 2018 Publication: draft-li-dynamic-flooding and 
drfat-li-dynamic-flooding-isis
  published centralized solution.

- Mar 5, 2018 Publication: draft-cc-isis-flooding-reduction and 
draft-cc-ospf-flooding-reduction
  published distributed solution


Thanks for your summary we know the fact that at beginning there was not any 
confliction between the two drafts.



- Jun 28, 2018 draft-li-dynamic-flooding-05 published (2 authors)
  - *SMALL CHANGE TO SUPPORT DISTRIBUTED ALGORITHM*.
  - Does not specify distributed algorithm only how to indicate one in use, 
small change.


I do not think it is a small change. It is to introduced the totally new 
solution which was already defined in the other existing draft. It is not an 
appropariate behavior and the root cause of the potential confliction.


It added 8 bits to signal which distributed algorithm (if any) was in use. How 
is that not small?


I also think the distributed solution includes more than the algorithms defined 
in the draft-cc-lsr-flooding-reduction-00  and the overlapped signallings  
defined in the draft-cc-lsr-flooding-reduction-00/draft-li-dynamic-flooding-03. 
Since the co-authors could not merge the draft, though the existing suggestion 
proposed is try to separate the two drafts, there is still overlap on the 
distributed solution between the two drafts which may be the source of 
continuous confliction in the future. In order to avoid the situation I would 
like to propose following suggestions:


Yes, the CC draft added a ton of new signaling after the fact. We didn't need 
this, and it has been the root cause of the conflict.

The signaling is not the hard part to solve here and we don't need to be 
spending all this time and effort (15 authors now?!) on it.

Instead of spending more time on signaling, we need to get rid of this 
conflict, and have people working on the *actual hard problems* of the flooding 
topology calculation. There's no conflict here, there's room for multiple 
solutions, and it's the hard part.

Thanks,
Chris.


- move both the two drafts forward in parallel keeping 
draft-li-dynamic-flooding focus on the centralized solution and 
draft-cc-lsr-flooding-reduction on the distributed solution.
- draft-li-dynamic-flooding can keep on refining the centralized solution 
without mentioning distibuted solutions.
- draft-cc-lsr-flooding-reduction can keep on refining the distributed 
solutions. For the sigalling which can be shared by the two modes, the draft 
can indicate the distributed solutions reuse the signalling defined in 
draft-li-dynamic-flooding without defining new signalling.
- both drafts change the draft names to reflect different solutions without 
causing confusion.


Thanks & Regards,
Zhenbin (Robin)






发件人: Lsr [lsr-boun...@ietf.org] 代表 Christian Hopps [cho...@chopps.org]
发送时间: 2019年2月1日 20:25
收件人: lsr@ietf.org
抄送: cho...@chopps.org
主题: [Lsr] Moving Forward [Re: Flooding Reduction Draft Redux]

Summary of where we are at with dynamic flooding reduction:

 - We have a well written original work that came first and described the 
problems as well as a TLVs to allow for a centralized solution 
(draft-li-dyanmic-flooding). We do not need to standardize the centralized 
algorithm.

 - A small change to this work allowed for distributed algorithms and for 
outside work on distributed algorithms to continue in parallel.

 - We have another original work that started primarily as a distributed 
algorithm
   (draft-cc-ospf-flooding-reduction)

 - Finally we also have:
   - Cross-pollination of ideas.
   - Failed attempts at merging.
   - An authors list "Arms-Race".

Moving forward:

- During IETF 103 I proposed we have no conflict if we:

   1) adopt draft-li-lsr-dyanmic-flooding as the base WG document.
   2) have authors of draft-cc-lsr-flooding-reduction work on a distributed 
algorithm as they started with.

- Acee agreed during the meeting (as chair) that this was the best way forward. 
We had some agreement form the floor as well.

- Any good ideas regarding the distribution of a centralized topology can be 
debated and added (with appropriate attribution) to the base document after we 
adopt one.

- This is what happens when we adopt a document as WG work, we work on it.

- The original authors of the distributed solution can continue to work on 
their distributed algorithm in a separate document which would also need 
standardization.

Does anyone see a serious problem with this path forward?

Thanks,
Chris & Acee.
LSR Chairs.

Christian Hopps  writes:


We've had the authors of the individual conflicting drafts take a shot at 
merging their work.

   This has failed.

Here is the full history (which I also summarized during IETF103 as well). I 
will send a second email discussing this.

- Jan 2, 2018 Publication: draft-li-dynamic-flooding and 
drfat-li-dynamic-flooding-isis
  published centralized solution.

- 

[Lsr] 答复: Moving Forward [Re: Flooding Reduction Draft Redux]

2019-02-04 Thread Lizhenbin
Hi Chris & Acee,

> - Jan 2, 2018 Publication: draft-li-dynamic-flooding and 
> drfat-li-dynamic-flooding-isis
>   published centralized solution.
>
> - Mar 5, 2018 Publication: draft-cc-isis-flooding-reduction and 
> draft-cc-ospf-flooding-reduction
>   published distributed solution

Thanks for your summary we know the fact that at beginning there was not any 
confliction between the two drafts.


> - Jun 28, 2018 draft-li-dynamic-flooding-05 published (2 authors)
>   - *SMALL CHANGE TO SUPPORT DISTRIBUTED ALGORITHM*.
>   - Does not specify distributed algorithm only how to indicate one in use, 
> small change.

I do not think it is a small change. It is to introduced the totally new 
solution which was already defined in the other existing draft. It is not an 
appropariate behavior and the root cause of the potential confliction. 


I also think the distributed solution includes more than the algorithms defined 
in the draft-cc-lsr-flooding-reduction-00  and the overlapped signallings  
defined in the draft-cc-lsr-flooding-reduction-00/draft-li-dynamic-flooding-03. 
Since the co-authors could not merge the draft, though the existing suggestion 
proposed is try to separate the two drafts, there is still overlap on the 
distributed solution between the two drafts which may be the source of 
continuous confliction in the future. In order to avoid the situation I would 
like to propose following suggestions:
- move both the two drafts forward in parallel keeping 
draft-li-dynamic-flooding focus on the centralized solution and 
draft-cc-lsr-flooding-reduction on the distributed solution.
- draft-li-dynamic-flooding can keep on refining the centralized solution 
without mentioning distibuted solutions.
- draft-cc-lsr-flooding-reduction can keep on refining the distributed 
solutions. For the sigalling which can be shared by the two modes, the draft 
can indicate the distributed solutions reuse the signalling defined in 
draft-li-dynamic-flooding without defining new signalling. 
- both drafts change the draft names to reflect different solutions without 
causing confusion.


Thanks & Regards,
Zhenbin (Robin)

  




发件人: Lsr [lsr-boun...@ietf.org] 代表 Christian Hopps [cho...@chopps.org]
发送时间: 2019年2月1日 20:25
收件人: lsr@ietf.org
抄送: cho...@chopps.org
主题: [Lsr] Moving Forward [Re: Flooding Reduction Draft Redux]

Summary of where we are at with dynamic flooding reduction:

 - We have a well written original work that came first and described the 
problems as well as a TLVs to allow for a centralized solution 
(draft-li-dyanmic-flooding). We do not need to standardize the centralized 
algorithm.

 - A small change to this work allowed for distributed algorithms and for 
outside work on distributed algorithms to continue in parallel.

 - We have another original work that started primarily as a distributed 
algorithm
   (draft-cc-ospf-flooding-reduction)

 - Finally we also have:
   - Cross-pollination of ideas.
   - Failed attempts at merging.
   - An authors list "Arms-Race".

Moving forward:

- During IETF 103 I proposed we have no conflict if we:

   1) adopt draft-li-lsr-dyanmic-flooding as the base WG document.
   2) have authors of draft-cc-lsr-flooding-reduction work on a distributed 
algorithm as they started with.

- Acee agreed during the meeting (as chair) that this was the best way forward. 
We had some agreement form the floor as well.

- Any good ideas regarding the distribution of a centralized topology can be 
debated and added (with appropriate attribution) to the base document after we 
adopt one.

- This is what happens when we adopt a document as WG work, we work on it.

- The original authors of the distributed solution can continue to work on 
their distributed algorithm in a separate document which would also need 
standardization.

Does anyone see a serious problem with this path forward?

Thanks,
Chris & Acee.
LSR Chairs.

Christian Hopps  writes:

> We've had the authors of the individual conflicting drafts take a shot at 
> merging their work.
>
>This has failed.
>
> Here is the full history (which I also summarized during IETF103 as well). I 
> will send a second email discussing this.
>
> - Jan 2, 2018 Publication: draft-li-dynamic-flooding and 
> drfat-li-dynamic-flooding-isis
>   published centralized solution.
>
> - Mar 5, 2018 Publication: draft-cc-isis-flooding-reduction and 
> draft-cc-ospf-flooding-reduction
>   published distributed solution.
>   - mention of centralized solution asserting it is not good choice.
>
> - IETF 101 (Mar 2018)
>   - Video: 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHmT4ytMn4w=PLC86T-6ZTP5j_HaBNdfPbgxGIp22cnaWS
>   - Minutes: 
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/101/materials/minutes-101-lsr-00
>   - draft-li-dynamic-flooding-02 presented (1 author). at IETF 101
> - Generally well received.
>   - draft-cc-ospf-flooding-reduction-00 (4 authors) presented.
> - Serious problems immediately found during