Re: [LUAU] list moderation
On Sun, Mar 30, 2008 at 1:53 PM, Ronald Fox [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Can you explain what's involved? Are you referring to administration of the LUAU Mailman list on Dreamhost? I am adding you now. -Vince PS. I am cleaning out some membership addresses that have mail disabled due to bounced addresses. ___ LUAU@lists.hosef.org mailing list http://lists.hosef.org/listinfo.cgi/luau-hosef.org
Re: [LUAU] list moderation
On Mon, 2008-03-31 at 09:18 -0700, Vince Hoang wrote: On Sun, Mar 30, 2008 at 1:53 PM, Ronald Fox [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Can you explain what's involved? Are you referring to administration of the LUAU Mailman list on Dreamhost? I am adding you now. OK. I'll take that as a yes. -Vince PS. I am cleaning out some membership addresses that have mail disabled due to bounced addresses. Thanks, Ron ___ LUAU@lists.hosef.org mailing list http://lists.hosef.org/listinfo.cgi/luau-hosef.org
Re: [LUAU] list moderation
Gary Sublett wrote: On Sat, 29 Mar 2008 07:05:12 -0700 Vince Hoang [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You just don't get it. I am not turning on emergency moderation. Instead, I will remove both of you from LUAU until you settle your differences. I do not begrudge either of you. I think you both want what is best for HOSEF, but your strong personalities prevent you from finding common ground. You idea of containment does not work in the Internet age. I tried keeping this venue open in your defense. By closing off both hosef-managers and LUAU, the disagreement will spill elsewhere, and likely where you will not be able to retract the discussion. If any subscribers disagree, let me know. I disagree, the threat of removing a subscriber from the list based on what? To protect someone from themself, seems rather paternalistic. To protect the integrity of the list or subject matter, seems inconsistant with the range of subjects or lack thereof over recent years. -- Gary ___ LUAU@lists.hosef.org mailing list http://lists.hosef.org/listinfo.cgi/luau-hosef.org Ah Ha! As always a voice of reason. Glad you still lurk, Gary. ~Al Plant - Honolulu, Hawaii - Phone: 808-284-2740 + http://hawaiidakine.com + http://freebsdinfo.org + + http://aloha50.net - Supporting - FreeBSD 6.* - 7.* - 8.* + email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] All that's really worth doing is what we do for others.- Lewis Carrol ___ LUAU@lists.hosef.org mailing list http://lists.hosef.org/listinfo.cgi/luau-hosef.org
Re: [LUAU] list moderation
My moderation actions have been undone. The archives are public. No posted have been redacted. The people I removed from the list have asked not to be resubscribed but they are free to rejoin. Can someone else volunteer to take the helm now? -Vince ___ LUAU@lists.hosef.org mailing list http://lists.hosef.org/listinfo.cgi/luau-hosef.org
Re: [LUAU] list moderation
On Sun, 2008-03-30 at 10:05 -0700, Vince Hoang wrote: My moderation actions have been undone. The archives are public. No posted have been redacted. The people I removed from the list have asked not to be resubscribed but they are free to rejoin. Thank you Vince, Can someone else volunteer to take the helm now? Can you explain what's involved? Are you referring to administration of the LUAU Mailman list on Dreamhost? With warm regards, Ron -Vince ___ LUAU@lists.hosef.org mailing list http://lists.hosef.org/listinfo.cgi/luau-hosef.org ___ LUAU@lists.hosef.org mailing list http://lists.hosef.org/listinfo.cgi/luau-hosef.org
Re: [LUAU] list moderation
You just don't get it. I am not turning on emergency moderation. Instead, I will remove both of you from LUAU until you settle your differences. I do not begrudge either of you. I think you both want what is best for HOSEF, but your strong personalities prevent you from finding common ground. You idea of containment does not work in the Internet age. I tried keeping this venue open in your defense. By closing off both hosef-managers and LUAU, the disagreement will spill elsewhere, and likely where you will not be able to retract the discussion. If any subscribers disagree, let me know. -Vince ___ LUAU@lists.hosef.org mailing list http://lists.hosef.org/listinfo.cgi/luau-hosef.org
Re: [LUAU] list moderation
+1, I agree. - Vince Hoang [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You just don't get it. I am not turning on emergency moderation. Instead, I will remove both of you from LUAU until you settle your differences. I do not begrudge either of you. I think you both want what is best for HOSEF, but your strong personalities prevent you from finding common ground. You idea of containment does not work in the Internet age. I tried keeping this venue open in your defense. By closing off both hosef-managers and LUAU, the disagreement will spill elsewhere, and likely where you will not be able to retract the discussion. If any subscribers disagree, let me know. -Vince ___ LUAU@lists.hosef.org mailing list http://lists.hosef.org/listinfo.cgi/luau-hosef.org ___ LUAU@lists.hosef.org mailing list http://lists.hosef.org/listinfo.cgi/luau-hosef.org
Re: [LUAU] list moderation
On Sat, 29 Mar 2008 07:05:12 -0700 Vince Hoang [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You just don't get it. I am not turning on emergency moderation. Instead, I will remove both of you from LUAU until you settle your differences. I do not begrudge either of you. I think you both want what is best for HOSEF, but your strong personalities prevent you from finding common ground. You idea of containment does not work in the Internet age. I tried keeping this venue open in your defense. By closing off both hosef-managers and LUAU, the disagreement will spill elsewhere, and likely where you will not be able to retract the discussion. If any subscribers disagree, let me know. I disagree, the threat of removing a subscriber from the list based on what? To protect someone from themself, seems rather paternalistic. To protect the integrity of the list or subject matter, seems inconsistant with the range of subjects or lack thereof over recent years. -- Gary ___ LUAU@lists.hosef.org mailing list http://lists.hosef.org/listinfo.cgi/luau-hosef.org
Re: [LUAU] list moderation
Gary Sublett wrote: On Sat, 29 Mar 2008 07:05:12 -0700 Vince Hoang [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You just don't get it. I am not turning on emergency moderation. Instead, I will remove both of you from LUAU until you settle your differences. I do not begrudge either of you. I think you both want what is best for HOSEF, but your strong personalities prevent you from finding common ground. You idea of containment does not work in the Internet age. I tried keeping this venue open in your defense. By closing off both hosef-managers and LUAU, the disagreement will spill elsewhere, and likely where you will not be able to retract the discussion. If any subscribers disagree, let me know. I disagree, the threat of removing a subscriber from the list based on what? Off-topic material. Jim said Scott wouldn't allow his posts through to HOSEF-manager where their thread belongs. So Jim took it to LUAU. The posts seem to cover more HOSEF board related business and personal issues rather than *nix related things. To protect someone from themself, seems rather paternalistic. I see it more like protecting LUAU and the LUG. The most recent posts concern me greatly. To protect the integrity of the list or subject matter, seems inconsistant with the range of subjects or lack thereof over recent years. Which has led to people leaving the list or becoming disgusted with LUAU/HOSEF. I think stronger moderation is in order. Especially with the recent threats of lawsuits and personal information leaks. -- Gary ___ LUAU@lists.hosef.org mailing list http://lists.hosef.org/listinfo.cgi/luau-hosef.org ___ LUAU@lists.hosef.org mailing list http://lists.hosef.org/listinfo.cgi/luau-hosef.org
Re: [LUAU] list moderation
On Sat, 29 Mar 2008 06:11:29 -1000 Michael Bishop [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gary Sublett wrote: On Sat, 29 Mar 2008 07:05:12 -0700 Vince Hoang [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You just don't get it. I am not turning on emergency moderation. Instead, I will remove both of you from LUAU until you settle your differences. I do not begrudge either of you. I think you both want what is best for HOSEF, but your strong personalities prevent you from finding common ground. You idea of containment does not work in the Internet age. I tried keeping this venue open in your defense. By closing off both hosef-managers and LUAU, the disagreement will spill elsewhere, and likely where you will not be able to retract the discussion. If any subscribers disagree, let me know. I disagree, the threat of removing a subscriber from the list based on what? Off-topic material. Jim said Scott wouldn't allow his posts through to HOSEF-manager where their thread belongs. So Jim took it to LUAU. The posts seem to cover more HOSEF board related business and personal issues rather than *nix related things. To protect someone from themself, seems rather paternalistic. I see it more like protecting LUAU and the LUG. The most recent posts concern me greatly. To protect the integrity of the list or subject matter, seems inconsistant with the range of subjects or lack thereof over recent years. Which has led to people leaving the list or becoming disgusted with LUAU/HOSEF. I think stronger moderation is in order. Especially with the recent threats of lawsuits and personal information leaks. -- Gary Michael, Vince asked for input from list members and I provided mine. If this threatened removal from the list is based on being Off Topic, it is IMHO an inconsistant action in light of what has been allowed on the LUAU list over the last few years. For example, all the HOSEF specific promotion, solicitation, etc. If you or other list members view all things HOSEF of interest/on topic/representative/a the face of the LUAU community, then I find it mis-guided to frame the current strife/activity of HOSEF (internal or external) as Off Topic. You advocate stronger moderation, I disagree. Had there not been the reported moderation (censorship) on the HOSEF managers list would we be discussing this? -- Gary ___ LUAU@lists.hosef.org mailing list http://lists.hosef.org/listinfo.cgi/luau-hosef.org
Re: [LUAU] list moderation
this is a joke right? On Sat, 29 Mar 2008 4:05 am, Vince Hoang wrote: You just don't get it. I am not turning on emergency moderation. Instead, I will remove both of you from LUAU until you settle your differences. I do not begrudge either of you. I think you both want what is best for HOSEF, but your strong personalities prevent you from finding common ground. You idea of containment does not work in the Internet age. I tried keeping this venue open in your defense. By closing off both hosef-managers and LUAU, the disagreement will spill elsewhere, and likely where you will not be able to retract the discussion. If any subscribers disagree, let me know. -Vince ___ LUAU@lists.hosef.org mailing list http://lists.hosef.org/listinfo.cgi/luau-hosef.org ___ LUAU@lists.hosef.org mailing list http://lists.hosef.org/listinfo.cgi/luau-hosef.org
Re: [LUAU] list moderation
+1 You advocate stronger moderation, I disagree. Had there not been the reported moderation (censorship) on the HOSEF managers list would we be discussing this? ___ LUAU@lists.hosef.org mailing list http://lists.hosef.org/listinfo.cgi/luau-hosef.org
Re: [LUAU] list moderation
Gary Sublett wrote: On Sat, 29 Mar 2008 06:11:29 -1000 Michael Bishop [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gary Sublett wrote: On Sat, 29 Mar 2008 07:05:12 -0700 Vince Hoang [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You just don't get it. I am not turning on emergency moderation. Instead, I will remove both of you from LUAU until you settle your differences. I do not begrudge either of you. I think you both want what is best for HOSEF, but your strong personalities prevent you from finding common ground. You idea of containment does not work in the Internet age. I tried keeping this venue open in your defense. By closing off both hosef-managers and LUAU, the disagreement will spill elsewhere, and likely where you will not be able to retract the discussion. If any subscribers disagree, let me know. I disagree, the threat of removing a subscriber from the list based on what? Off-topic material. Jim said Scott wouldn't allow his posts through to HOSEF-manager where their thread belongs. So Jim took it to LUAU. The posts seem to cover more HOSEF board related business and personal issues rather than *nix related things. To protect someone from themself, seems rather paternalistic. I see it more like protecting LUAU and the LUG. The most recent posts concern me greatly. To protect the integrity of the list or subject matter, seems inconsistant with the range of subjects or lack thereof over recent years. Which has led to people leaving the list or becoming disgusted with LUAU/HOSEF. I think stronger moderation is in order. Especially with the recent threats of lawsuits and personal information leaks. -- Gary Michael, Vince asked for input from list members and I provided mine. I appreciate and respect your input. It provided a view point I may not have fully considered. If this threatened removal from the list is based on being Off Topic, it is IMHO an inconsistant action in light of what has been allowed on the LUAU list over the last few years. For example, all the HOSEF specific promotion, solicitation, etc. If you or other list members view all things HOSEF of interest/on topic/representative/a the face of the LUAU community, then I find it mis-guided to frame the current strife/activity of HOSEF (internal or external) as Off Topic. I agree that LUAU's moderation has been inconsistent. However, since there has been little to no previous moderation, we should never moderate? Should another moderated list be created that focuses on LUG issues? The sole reason HOSEF-managers was created was to remove HOSEF internal discussions from the LUAU list. Due to the censorship of HOSEF-manages, I agree with the current spillover, but this discussion has been going on for weeks. I think it's time to resolve it and/or move it off-list. I recall that long flame-wars have been forced off-list in the past and people have been banned IIRC. Linux Dan, as an example, comes to mind. You advocate stronger moderation, I disagree. Had there not been the reported moderation (censorship) on the HOSEF managers list would we be discussing this? I advocate stronger moderation on *this* list because I feel it should focus on LUG/*nix related stuff. I disagree with any moderation of HOSEF-managers as I feel it should be an extension of the HOSEF meetings. I also feel the HOSEF-managers archives should be private. -- Gary ___ LUAU@lists.hosef.org mailing list http://lists.hosef.org/listinfo.cgi/luau-hosef.org ___ LUAU@lists.hosef.org mailing list http://lists.hosef.org/listinfo.cgi/luau-hosef.org
Re: [LUAU] list moderation
On Sat, Mar 29, 2008 at 11:22 AM, Gary Sublett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Vince asked for input from list members and I provided mine. Thanks. I would appreciate suggestions on alternatives that would achieve the goal of keeping personal attacks off list. I want HOSEF content back on hosef-managers, but it is the personal attacks that triggered my [extreme] reaction. You advocate stronger moderation, I disagree. Had there not been the reported moderation (censorship) on the HOSEF managers list would we be discussing this? +1. Sounds hypocritical doesn't it? I don't like what I did but feel emergency moderation would have been worse. I don't want heavy moderation and tried repeatedly on list and off list to get the flames down. (They are still going quite heavily off list and I don't think that will change soon.) In a few days, we will need to look into me relinquishing my moderator bit and/or moving the list to another domain. Lots of people need to grow up, myself included. -Vince ___ LUAU@lists.hosef.org mailing list http://lists.hosef.org/listinfo.cgi/luau-hosef.org
Re: [LUAU] list moderation
On Saturday 29 March 2008 16:43:04 Vince Hoang wrote: I want HOSEF content back on hosef-managers, but it is the personal attacks that triggered my [extreme] reaction. I'm glad you did what you did. It was getting very ugly. -- Hawaiian Astronomical Society: http://www.hawastsoc.org HAS Deepsky Atlas: http://www.hawastsoc.org/deepsky ___ LUAU@lists.hosef.org mailing list http://lists.hosef.org/listinfo.cgi/luau-hosef.org
Re: [LUAU] list moderation
I have no desire to moderate this list and do not understand this question. I have never moderated LUAU for many good reasons. I am not even an admin. There has obviously been no moderation for the last few weeks. It was today that I reminded the current admin that he alone has the admin password, and he has had it since I migrated the lists a few weeks ago away from our outdated UH install and to Dreamhost. Prior to that migration I asked if anyone else wanted to host or to moderate this mailing list. For a few weeks anything and everything has been expressed on LUAU without regard to any ethic or decorum. I tried to give this list to the community, it was not taken, and I have been paying to host it while my reputation and all that HOSEF has done is slandered, slighted, libeled, and damaged by the very people claiming that they don't have enough control over HOSEF to do non-ecycling projects. I'll let history judge this one. Some action seems to have been taken today, at least by making the lists private. The world deservedly loves all that you have done to make this list and more work, Vince, so I personally vote against your giving it up. I completely reject any admin privileges. I will continue hosting LUAU, and I will continue wondering how many more questionable and actionable comments are made. Can someone please restore the decorum of this list *without* using the word scott? --scott On Thu, Mar 27, 2008 at 11:58 AM, Vince Hoang [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Let me know if you want my to give up moderation of the list and hand it to Scott. It is currently hosted on lists.hosef.org right now. I use moderation in quotes because I have tried very, very hard not to resort to heavy moderation and instead try to convince others to self-moderate. If you want me to continue to moderate, we will likely have to move the lists away from hosef.org and over to a new domain like freesoftwarehawaii.org. -Vince ___ LUAU@lists.hosef.org mailing list http://lists.hosef.org/listinfo.cgi/luau-hosef.org ___ LUAU@lists.hosef.org mailing list http://lists.hosef.org/listinfo.cgi/luau-hosef.org
[LUAU] list moderation
Let me know if you want my to give up moderation of the list and hand it to Scott. It is currently hosted on lists.hosef.org right now. I use moderation in quotes because I have tried very, very hard not to resort to heavy moderation and instead try to convince others to self-moderate. If you want me to continue to moderate, we will likely have to move the lists away from hosef.org and over to a new domain like freesoftwarehawaii.org. -Vince ___ LUAU@lists.hosef.org mailing list http://lists.hosef.org/listinfo.cgi/luau-hosef.org
