Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] [12.04] Firefox instead of Chromium?

2011-11-09 Thread James King 
What are the chances of having an installer that gives you the choice
to install either one? Maybe even add Midori to the mix? It doesn't
matter to me either way: both are fast enough on my netbook and each
continues to improve.

On Wed, Nov 9, 2011 at 2:52 PM, amjjawad HOOHAA  wrote:
> Guys,
>
> With all due respect to EVERYONE, I'm not sure if this
> debate/discussion/argument is even healthy or not any more?
> I know we, as Lubuntu Team Members, must discuss between us first of all but
> we must not forget about one simple fact ... USERS have the louder voice
> IMHO. I do believe that such choice must first be made by users. I mean,
> they should agree about that.
>
> EVERYONE, and I mean everyone on Ubuntu Forum is asking us to keep Lubuntu
> as it's and to improve it to be even better BUT NOT TO follow Ubuntu's
> Steps.
> Everyone is aware that Mint is Rank 1 now on Distrowatch. Who knows what
> could happen? Do you guys know how many users has moved from Ubuntu to
> Lubuntu? I almost see 5-10 every day. I'm ready to do a survey and see how
> many actually moved to Lubuntu and will start that today, at least for my
> own information.
>
> I downloaded Fedora 16 LXDE today because I'm having Multi-Boot machine with
> many LXDE Distributions to compare between them. It has Firefox by default,
> not Chromium. This is FYI not FYA.
>
> I suggest instead of spending some time discussing about that, why not do
> some tests and send the report via mailing list?
>
> As many already mentioned, it's "apt-get install" and mission accomplished.
> IMHO, there are a lot to talk about rather than Firefox VS Chromium talk.
>
> I'm out of this discussion and going to do two things and get back to you:
>
> 1- I'll do my test and send it via mailing list.
> 2- I'll write my suggestions regarding 12.04 on my thread and send it to
> everyone.
>
>
> I don't mean to be rude here at all, just stating my humble opinion and I
> could be wrong but that's my point after all. Disagree but don't disrespect
> is my motto :)
>
> Cya
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 9, 2011 at 8:46 PM, Leszek Lesner  wrote:
>>
>> Am 09.11.2011 15:55, schrieb A. Andjelkovic:
>> > Let's not think in terms of "This is what I would prefer" but rather
>> > "This
>> > is what a user on a low spec machine would prefer".
>> Isn't that the same ?
>> I am running Chromium here on a 800 Mhz ARM Cortex A8 with 256 MB RAM.
>> I guess that is a low machine.
>> If you get to even lower hardware than both browsers feel slugish.
>>
>> > Let's not start a war here... I don't want to be rude, but please keep
>> > such
>> > personal opinions out of this discussion.
>>
>> If you only choose software on the base of how much ram they use on
>> ancient hardware then you will definitely fail in delivering a good user
>> experience. Personal opinions matter a lot if they are supported by good
>> arguments.
>> And no I don't want to start a war here. I just want to discuss the
>> advantages and disadvantages of both browsers.
>>
>>
>> > Google is dropping H264 support:
>> > http://blog.chromium.org/2011/01/html-video-codec-support-in-chrome.html
>>
>> Google Chrome != Chromium
>>
>> > Firefox might do that in the future also, but it costs memory to
>> > sandbox each browser tab. And I believe Chromium cheats: when
>> > available memory gets too low, tabs begin sharing the same process so
>> > it's a bit harder to know what's really going on.
>>
>> At least from the user perspective you have still the advantage that one
>> tab cannot crash the whole browser.
>>
>> > While I'm not a Google-hater, I think it's very important for the free
>> > web that Mozilla continues to exist. Since Mozilla is a bit more open
>> > than Chromium and multiple steps more open than Android, I think open
>> > source fans should consider supporting Firefox if the features are
>> > nearly equal, which in my opinion they are. This is why I hope Firefox
>> > continues to remain the Ubuntu default browser. Since Lubuntu has
>> > different constraints in choosing default apps, I'll let Julien and
>> > the Lubuntu devs make their own evaluation. Both browsers are fully
>> > supported in Ubuntu (Canonical is looking to hire someone who can help
>> > maintain Chromium).
>>
>> I really don't think that if Lubuntu would ship Chromium instead of
>> Firefox it will hurt Mozilla soo much that they have to fear their
>> existens.
>> And to be clear here, if we would to have choose a non free vs. a free
>> software then I would also argue its definitely better to promote the
>> free software. But in our case we have to made a choice between two free
>> software products.
>>
>>
>>
>> ___
>> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop
>> Post to     : lubuntu-desktop@lists.launchpad.net
>> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop
>> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>
>
>
> --
> Best Regards,
>
> amjjawad
> Lubuntu One Stop Thread (Mega Thread)
> My Wiki

Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] [12.04] Firefox instead of Chromium?

2011-11-09 Thread amjjawad HOOHAA 
Guys,

With all due respect to EVERYONE, I'm not sure if this
debate/discussion/argument is even healthy or not any more?
I know we, as Lubuntu Team Members, must discuss between us first of all
but we must not forget about one simple fact ... USERS have the louder
voice IMHO. I do believe that such choice must first be made by users. I
mean, they should agree about that.

EVERYONE, and I mean everyone on Ubuntu Forum is asking us to keep Lubuntu
as it's and to improve it to be even better BUT NOT TO follow Ubuntu's
Steps.
Everyone is aware that Mint is Rank 1 now on Distrowatch. Who knows what
could happen? Do you guys know how many users has moved from Ubuntu to
Lubuntu? I almost see 5-10 every day. I'm ready to do a survey and see how
many actually moved to Lubuntu and will start that today, at least for my
own information.

I downloaded Fedora 16 LXDE today because I'm having Multi-Boot machine
with many LXDE Distributions to compare between them. It has Firefox by
default, not Chromium. This is FYI not FYA.

I suggest instead of spending some time discussing about that, why not do
some tests and send the report via mailing list?

As many already mentioned, it's "apt-get install" and mission accomplished.
IMHO, there are a lot to talk about rather than Firefox VS Chromium talk.

I'm out of this discussion and going to do two things and get back to you:

1- I'll do my test and send it via mailing list.
2- I'll write my suggestions regarding 12.04 on my thread and send it to
everyone.


I don't mean to be rude here at all, just stating my humble opinion and I
could be wrong but that's my point after all. Disagree but don't disrespect
is my motto :)

Cya


On Wed, Nov 9, 2011 at 8:46 PM, Leszek Lesner  wrote:

> Am 09.11.2011 15:55, schrieb A. Andjelkovic:
> > Let's not think in terms of "This is what I would prefer" but rather
> "This
> > is what a user on a low spec machine would prefer".
> Isn't that the same ?
> I am running Chromium here on a 800 Mhz ARM Cortex A8 with 256 MB RAM.
> I guess that is a low machine.
> If you get to even lower hardware than both browsers feel slugish.
>
> > Let's not start a war here... I don't want to be rude, but please keep
> such
> > personal opinions out of this discussion.
>
> If you only choose software on the base of how much ram they use on
> ancient hardware then you will definitely fail in delivering a good user
> experience. Personal opinions matter a lot if they are supported by good
> arguments.
> And no I don't want to start a war here. I just want to discuss the
> advantages and disadvantages of both browsers.
>
>
> > Google is dropping H264 support:
> > http://blog.chromium.org/2011/01/html-video-codec-support-in-chrome.html
>
> Google Chrome != Chromium
>
> > Firefox might do that in the future also, but it costs memory to
> > sandbox each browser tab. And I believe Chromium cheats: when
> > available memory gets too low, tabs begin sharing the same process so
> > it's a bit harder to know what's really going on.
>
> At least from the user perspective you have still the advantage that one
> tab cannot crash the whole browser.
>
> > While I'm not a Google-hater, I think it's very important for the free
> > web that Mozilla continues to exist. Since Mozilla is a bit more open
> > than Chromium and multiple steps more open than Android, I think open
> > source fans should consider supporting Firefox if the features are
> > nearly equal, which in my opinion they are. This is why I hope Firefox
> > continues to remain the Ubuntu default browser. Since Lubuntu has
> > different constraints in choosing default apps, I'll let Julien and
> > the Lubuntu devs make their own evaluation. Both browsers are fully
> > supported in Ubuntu (Canonical is looking to hire someone who can help
> > maintain Chromium).
>
> I really don't think that if Lubuntu would ship Chromium instead of
> Firefox it will hurt Mozilla soo much that they have to fear their
> existens.
> And to be clear here, if we would to have choose a non free vs. a free
> software then I would also argue its definitely better to promote the
> free software. But in our case we have to made a choice between two free
> software products.
>
>
>
> ___
> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop
> Post to : lubuntu-desktop@lists.launchpad.net
> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop
> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>



-- 
Best Regards,

*amjjawad*
Lubuntu One Stop Thread (Mega
Thread)
My Wiki Page  | My
Launchpad |
My Ubuntu Forum Profile 

*My Actions Speak Louder Than My Words ||** ** I walk by faith, not by
sight **|| Imagination is more important than Knowledge || **Keep It Simple
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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] [12.04] Firefox instead of Chromium?

2011-11-09 Thread Michael Rawson 

On 09/11/11 16:34, amjjawad HOOHAA wrote:


Let's not start a war here... I don't want to be rude, but please
keep such personal opinions out of this discussion.I think we can
all agree that both Firefox and Chromium are rich in features.
We are simply trying to find out which browser, out of Firefox and
Chromium, use the least resources.
We want to chose the lightest of the two to be our out-of-the-box
web browser, whatever users prefer to use after that is simply an
apt-get away.
*Let's not think in terms of "This is what I would prefer" but
rather "This is what a user on a low spec machine would prefer".*


Could NOT agree more :)
Well said!

I second this:

*Let's not think in terms of "This is what I would prefer" but
rather "This is what a user on a low spec machine would prefer".*


On Wed, Nov 9, 2011 at 6:55 PM, A. Andjelkovic > wrote:


Let's not start a war here... I don't want to be rude, but please
keep such personal opinions out of this discussion.
I think we can all agree that both Firefox and Chromium are rich
in features.
We are simply trying to find out which browser, out of Firefox and
Chromium, use the least resources.
We want to chose the lightest of the two to be our out-of-the-box
web browser, whatever users prefer to use after that is simply an
apt-get away.
Let's not think in terms of "This is what I would prefer" but
rather "This is what a user on a low spec machine would prefer".

On Wed, Nov 9, 2011 at 3:21 PM, Jeremy Bicha mailto:jbi...@ubuntu.com>> wrote:

On 9 November 2011 06:03, Leszek Lesner mailto:leszek.les...@web.de>> wrote:

> In my view Chromium offers still better features than
firefox. Just look
> at the HTML5 capabilities it just beats firefox here with in
my view
> important things just like HTML5 videoplayback (H264 is
supported)

Google is dropping H264 support:
http://blog.chromium.org/2011/01/html-video-codec-support-in-chrome.html

> or the fact that every browser tab in chromium is running as
a different
> process in a sandbox which makes a crash of one tab not
concerning for
> other tabs.

Firefox might do that in the future also, but it costs memory to
sandbox each browser tab. And I believe Chromium cheats: when
available memory gets too low, tabs begin sharing the same
process so
it's a bit harder to know what's really going on.

> All in all I am in flavor of Chromium as its still faster
and offers the
> better features.

That's a bit subjective as Firefox also offers unique
features: It's
possible to run a few hundred tabs in Firefox; the design of
Chromium's tabbar makes that much more painful in Chromium.
Firefox
has a much more powerful addon framework (although Chromium may
improve this next year). The user has more control over his
data with
Firefox Sync than with Google's version.

While I'm not a Google-hater, I think it's very important for
the free
web that Mozilla continues to exist. Since Mozilla is a bit
more open
than Chromium and multiple steps more open than Android, I
think open
source fans should consider supporting Firefox if the features are
nearly equal, which in my opinion they are. This is why I hope
Firefox
continues to remain the Ubuntu default browser. Since Lubuntu has
different constraints in choosing default apps, I'll let
Julien and
the Lubuntu devs make their own evaluation. Both browsers are
fully
supported in Ubuntu (Canonical is looking to hire someone who
can help
maintain Chromium).

Jeremy

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Lubuntu One Stop Thread (Mega Thread) 

My Wiki Page

Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] [12.04] Firefox instead of Chromium?

2011-11-09 Thread Michael Rawson 

On 09/11/11 16:30, b g wrote:
This all sounds like personal preference and subjective arguments to 
me.  After all, users can install whatever browser they desire.


Personally, I wish Lubuntu would boot as fast as it used to.

On Wed, Nov 9, 2011 at 8:55 AM, A. Andjelkovic > wrote:


Let's not start a war here... I don't want to be rude, but please
keep such personal opinions out of this discussion.
I think we can all agree that both Firefox and Chromium are rich
in features.
We are simply trying to find out which browser, out of Firefox and
Chromium, use the least resources.
We want to chose the lightest of the two to be our out-of-the-box
web browser, whatever users prefer to use after that is simply an
apt-get away.
Let's not think in terms of "This is what I would prefer" but
rather "This is what a user on a low spec machine would prefer".

On Wed, Nov 9, 2011 at 3:21 PM, Jeremy Bicha mailto:jbi...@ubuntu.com>> wrote:

On 9 November 2011 06:03, Leszek Lesner mailto:leszek.les...@web.de>> wrote:

> In my view Chromium offers still better features than
firefox. Just look
> at the HTML5 capabilities it just beats firefox here with in
my view
> important things just like HTML5 videoplayback (H264 is
supported)

Google is dropping H264 support:
http://blog.chromium.org/2011/01/html-video-codec-support-in-chrome.html

> or the fact that every browser tab in chromium is running as
a different
> process in a sandbox which makes a crash of one tab not
concerning for
> other tabs.

Firefox might do that in the future also, but it costs memory to
sandbox each browser tab. And I believe Chromium cheats: when
available memory gets too low, tabs begin sharing the same
process so
it's a bit harder to know what's really going on.

> All in all I am in flavor of Chromium as its still faster
and offers the
> better features.

That's a bit subjective as Firefox also offers unique
features: It's
possible to run a few hundred tabs in Firefox; the design of
Chromium's tabbar makes that much more painful in Chromium.
Firefox
has a much more powerful addon framework (although Chromium may
improve this next year). The user has more control over his
data with
Firefox Sync than with Google's version.

While I'm not a Google-hater, I think it's very important for
the free
web that Mozilla continues to exist. Since Mozilla is a bit
more open
than Chromium and multiple steps more open than Android, I
think open
source fans should consider supporting Firefox if the features are
nearly equal, which in my opinion they are. This is why I hope
Firefox
continues to remain the Ubuntu default browser. Since Lubuntu has
different constraints in choosing default apps, I'll let
Julien and
the Lubuntu devs make their own evaluation. Both browsers are
fully
supported in Ubuntu (Canonical is looking to hire someone who
can help
maintain Chromium).

Jeremy

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I'm new-ish. How fast did it used to boot?

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] [12.04] Firefox instead of Chromium?

2011-11-09 Thread amjjawad HOOHAA 
Ok, on the PC where I'm planning to do the test, the reading of both LXTask
and GNOME System Monitor are equal now :)

http://i39.tinypic.com/10ym7me.jpg

I don't know what is wrong with my Lubuntu 11.04? it's acting crazy
recently.

Will try to do the test today and will let you know :)


On Wed, Nov 9, 2011 at 8:34 PM, amjjawad HOOHAA  wrote:

> Let's not start a war here... I don't want to be rude, but please keep
>> such personal opinions out of this discussion.I think we can all agree that
>> both Firefox and Chromium are rich in features.
>>
>> We are simply trying to find out which browser, out of Firefox and
>> Chromium, use the least resources.
>> We want to chose the lightest of the two to be our out-of-the-box web
>> browser, whatever users prefer to use after that is simply an apt-get away.
>> *Let's not think in terms of "This is what I would prefer" but rather
>> "This is what a user on a low spec machine would prefer".*
>>
>>
> Could NOT agree more :)
> Well said!
>
> I second this:
>
> *Let's not think in terms of "This is what I would prefer" but rather
>> "This is what a user on a low spec machine would prefer".*
>>
>
> On Wed, Nov 9, 2011 at 6:55 PM, A. Andjelkovic wrote:
>
>> Let's not start a war here... I don't want to be rude, but please keep
>> such personal opinions out of this discussion.
>> I think we can all agree that both Firefox and Chromium are rich in
>> features.
>> We are simply trying to find out which browser, out of Firefox and
>> Chromium, use the least resources.
>> We want to chose the lightest of the two to be our out-of-the-box web
>> browser, whatever users prefer to use after that is simply an apt-get away.
>> Let's not think in terms of "This is what I would prefer" but rather
>> "This is what a user on a low spec machine would prefer".
>>
>> On Wed, Nov 9, 2011 at 3:21 PM, Jeremy Bicha  wrote:
>>
>>> On 9 November 2011 06:03, Leszek Lesner  wrote:
>>>
>>> > In my view Chromium offers still better features than firefox. Just
>>> look
>>> > at the HTML5 capabilities it just beats firefox here with in my view
>>> > important things just like HTML5 videoplayback (H264 is supported)
>>>
>>> Google is dropping H264 support:
>>> http://blog.chromium.org/2011/01/html-video-codec-support-in-chrome.html
>>>
>>> > or the fact that every browser tab in chromium is running as a
>>> different
>>> > process in a sandbox which makes a crash of one tab not concerning for
>>> > other tabs.
>>>
>>> Firefox might do that in the future also, but it costs memory to
>>> sandbox each browser tab. And I believe Chromium cheats: when
>>> available memory gets too low, tabs begin sharing the same process so
>>> it's a bit harder to know what's really going on.
>>>
>>> > All in all I am in flavor of Chromium as its still faster and offers
>>> the
>>> > better features.
>>>
>>> That's a bit subjective as Firefox also offers unique features: It's
>>> possible to run a few hundred tabs in Firefox; the design of
>>> Chromium's tabbar makes that much more painful in Chromium. Firefox
>>> has a much more powerful addon framework (although Chromium may
>>> improve this next year). The user has more control over his data with
>>> Firefox Sync than with Google's version.
>>>
>>> While I'm not a Google-hater, I think it's very important for the free
>>> web that Mozilla continues to exist. Since Mozilla is a bit more open
>>> than Chromium and multiple steps more open than Android, I think open
>>> source fans should consider supporting Firefox if the features are
>>> nearly equal, which in my opinion they are. This is why I hope Firefox
>>> continues to remain the Ubuntu default browser. Since Lubuntu has
>>> different constraints in choosing default apps, I'll let Julien and
>>> the Lubuntu devs make their own evaluation. Both browsers are fully
>>> supported in Ubuntu (Canonical is looking to hire someone who can help
>>> maintain Chromium).
>>>
>>> Jeremy
>>>
>>> ___
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>>> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop
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>>>
>>
>>
>> ___
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>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Best Regards,
>
> *amjjawad*
> Lubuntu One Stop Thread (Mega 
> Thread)
> My Wiki Page  | My 
> Launchpad |
> My Ubuntu Forum Profile 
>
> *My Actions Speak Louder Than My Words ||** ** I walk by faith, not by
> sight **|| Imagination is more important than Knowledge || **Keep It
> Simple and Short*
>
>


-- 
Best Rega

Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] [12.04] Firefox instead of Chromium?

2011-11-09 Thread Tim Bernhard 
Again, what is the goal of this?  If the goal is to find the lighter of the
two, will Lubuntu test and choose the lightest with each release?  Does
Lubuntu want to be constantly changing browsers?  Dose Lubuntu care if it's
open source?

I agree it should be one of the two mentioned.  I think Lubuntu should
choose one and stick with it as long as it doesn't substantially fall
behind the other.  I don't think Lubuntu should "split hairs" over
benchmarks.  If the two are close, move on to the next question.

So what is the long range stance on this.  Lightest no matter what or
lightweight balanced of other criteria?

Tim



On Wed, Nov 9, 2011 at 9:55 AM, A. Andjelkovic wrote:

> Let's not start a war here... I don't want to be rude, but please keep
> such personal opinions out of this discussion.
> I think we can all agree that both Firefox and Chromium are rich in
> features.
> We are simply trying to find out which browser, out of Firefox and
> Chromium, use the least resources.
> We want to chose the lightest of the two to be our out-of-the-box web
> browser, whatever users prefer to use after that is simply an apt-get away.
> Let's not think in terms of "This is what I would prefer" but rather "This
> is what a user on a low spec machine would prefer".
>
> On Wed, Nov 9, 2011 at 3:21 PM, Jeremy Bicha  wrote:
>
>> On 9 November 2011 06:03, Leszek Lesner  wrote:
>>
>> > In my view Chromium offers still better features than firefox. Just look
>> > at the HTML5 capabilities it just beats firefox here with in my view
>> > important things just like HTML5 videoplayback (H264 is supported)
>>
>> Google is dropping H264 support:
>> http://blog.chromium.org/2011/01/html-video-codec-support-in-chrome.html
>>
>> > or the fact that every browser tab in chromium is running as a different
>> > process in a sandbox which makes a crash of one tab not concerning for
>> > other tabs.
>>
>> Firefox might do that in the future also, but it costs memory to
>> sandbox each browser tab. And I believe Chromium cheats: when
>> available memory gets too low, tabs begin sharing the same process so
>> it's a bit harder to know what's really going on.
>>
>> > All in all I am in flavor of Chromium as its still faster and offers the
>> > better features.
>>
>> That's a bit subjective as Firefox also offers unique features: It's
>> possible to run a few hundred tabs in Firefox; the design of
>> Chromium's tabbar makes that much more painful in Chromium. Firefox
>> has a much more powerful addon framework (although Chromium may
>> improve this next year). The user has more control over his data with
>> Firefox Sync than with Google's version.
>>
>> While I'm not a Google-hater, I think it's very important for the free
>> web that Mozilla continues to exist. Since Mozilla is a bit more open
>> than Chromium and multiple steps more open than Android, I think open
>> source fans should consider supporting Firefox if the features are
>> nearly equal, which in my opinion they are. This is why I hope Firefox
>> continues to remain the Ubuntu default browser. Since Lubuntu has
>> different constraints in choosing default apps, I'll let Julien and
>> the Lubuntu devs make their own evaluation. Both browsers are fully
>> supported in Ubuntu (Canonical is looking to hire someone who can help
>> maintain Chromium).
>>
>> Jeremy
>>
>> ___
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>> Post to : lubuntu-desktop@lists.launchpad.net
>> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop
>> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>>
>
>
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>
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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] [12.04] Firefox instead of Chromium?

2011-11-09 Thread Leszek Lesner 
Am 09.11.2011 15:55, schrieb A. Andjelkovic:
> Let's not think in terms of "This is what I would prefer" but rather "This
> is what a user on a low spec machine would prefer".
Isn't that the same ?
I am running Chromium here on a 800 Mhz ARM Cortex A8 with 256 MB RAM.
I guess that is a low machine.
If you get to even lower hardware than both browsers feel slugish.

> Let's not start a war here... I don't want to be rude, but please keep such
> personal opinions out of this discussion.

If you only choose software on the base of how much ram they use on
ancient hardware then you will definitely fail in delivering a good user
experience. Personal opinions matter a lot if they are supported by good
arguments.
And no I don't want to start a war here. I just want to discuss the
advantages and disadvantages of both browsers.


> Google is dropping H264 support:
> http://blog.chromium.org/2011/01/html-video-codec-support-in-chrome.html

Google Chrome != Chromium

> Firefox might do that in the future also, but it costs memory to
> sandbox each browser tab. And I believe Chromium cheats: when
> available memory gets too low, tabs begin sharing the same process so
> it's a bit harder to know what's really going on.

At least from the user perspective you have still the advantage that one
tab cannot crash the whole browser.

> While I'm not a Google-hater, I think it's very important for the free
> web that Mozilla continues to exist. Since Mozilla is a bit more open
> than Chromium and multiple steps more open than Android, I think open
> source fans should consider supporting Firefox if the features are
> nearly equal, which in my opinion they are. This is why I hope Firefox
> continues to remain the Ubuntu default browser. Since Lubuntu has
> different constraints in choosing default apps, I'll let Julien and
> the Lubuntu devs make their own evaluation. Both browsers are fully
> supported in Ubuntu (Canonical is looking to hire someone who can help
> maintain Chromium).

I really don't think that if Lubuntu would ship Chromium instead of
Firefox it will hurt Mozilla soo much that they have to fear their
existens.
And to be clear here, if we would to have choose a non free vs. a free
software then I would also argue its definitely better to promote the
free software. But in our case we have to made a choice between two free
software products.



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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] [12.04] Firefox instead of Chromium?

2011-11-09 Thread A. Andjelkovic 
On Wed, Nov 9, 2011 at 4:55 PM, Gabriel Salles  wrote:
>
> Should we consider Epiphany too or it is not stable enough yet?
> Gabriel Salles
>

Quoting Julien:
"We should only consider Chromium or Firefox, because they have a
strong upstream and are well maintained. Browser is a very important
part of a system, and we really don't have time to do maintenance on
it."

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] [12.04] Firefox instead of Chromium?

2011-11-09 Thread amjjawad HOOHAA 
>
> Let's not start a war here... I don't want to be rude, but please keep
> such personal opinions out of this discussion.I think we can all agree that
> both Firefox and Chromium are rich in features.
> We are simply trying to find out which browser, out of Firefox and
> Chromium, use the least resources.
> We want to chose the lightest of the two to be our out-of-the-box web
> browser, whatever users prefer to use after that is simply an apt-get away.
> *Let's not think in terms of "This is what I would prefer" but rather
> "This is what a user on a low spec machine would prefer".*
>
>
Could NOT agree more :)
Well said!

I second this:

> *Let's not think in terms of "This is what I would prefer" but rather
> "This is what a user on a low spec machine would prefer".*
>

On Wed, Nov 9, 2011 at 6:55 PM, A. Andjelkovic wrote:

> Let's not start a war here... I don't want to be rude, but please keep
> such personal opinions out of this discussion.
> I think we can all agree that both Firefox and Chromium are rich in
> features.
> We are simply trying to find out which browser, out of Firefox and
> Chromium, use the least resources.
> We want to chose the lightest of the two to be our out-of-the-box web
> browser, whatever users prefer to use after that is simply an apt-get away.
> Let's not think in terms of "This is what I would prefer" but rather "This
> is what a user on a low spec machine would prefer".
>
> On Wed, Nov 9, 2011 at 3:21 PM, Jeremy Bicha  wrote:
>
>> On 9 November 2011 06:03, Leszek Lesner  wrote:
>>
>> > In my view Chromium offers still better features than firefox. Just look
>> > at the HTML5 capabilities it just beats firefox here with in my view
>> > important things just like HTML5 videoplayback (H264 is supported)
>>
>> Google is dropping H264 support:
>> http://blog.chromium.org/2011/01/html-video-codec-support-in-chrome.html
>>
>> > or the fact that every browser tab in chromium is running as a different
>> > process in a sandbox which makes a crash of one tab not concerning for
>> > other tabs.
>>
>> Firefox might do that in the future also, but it costs memory to
>> sandbox each browser tab. And I believe Chromium cheats: when
>> available memory gets too low, tabs begin sharing the same process so
>> it's a bit harder to know what's really going on.
>>
>> > All in all I am in flavor of Chromium as its still faster and offers the
>> > better features.
>>
>> That's a bit subjective as Firefox also offers unique features: It's
>> possible to run a few hundred tabs in Firefox; the design of
>> Chromium's tabbar makes that much more painful in Chromium. Firefox
>> has a much more powerful addon framework (although Chromium may
>> improve this next year). The user has more control over his data with
>> Firefox Sync than with Google's version.
>>
>> While I'm not a Google-hater, I think it's very important for the free
>> web that Mozilla continues to exist. Since Mozilla is a bit more open
>> than Chromium and multiple steps more open than Android, I think open
>> source fans should consider supporting Firefox if the features are
>> nearly equal, which in my opinion they are. This is why I hope Firefox
>> continues to remain the Ubuntu default browser. Since Lubuntu has
>> different constraints in choosing default apps, I'll let Julien and
>> the Lubuntu devs make their own evaluation. Both browsers are fully
>> supported in Ubuntu (Canonical is looking to hire someone who can help
>> maintain Chromium).
>>
>> Jeremy
>>
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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] [12.04] Firefox instead of Chromium?

2011-11-09 Thread b g 
This all sounds like personal preference and subjective arguments to me.
 After all, users can install whatever browser they desire.

Personally, I wish Lubuntu would boot as fast as it used to.

On Wed, Nov 9, 2011 at 8:55 AM, A. Andjelkovic wrote:

> Let's not start a war here... I don't want to be rude, but please keep
> such personal opinions out of this discussion.
> I think we can all agree that both Firefox and Chromium are rich in
> features.
> We are simply trying to find out which browser, out of Firefox and
> Chromium, use the least resources.
> We want to chose the lightest of the two to be our out-of-the-box web
> browser, whatever users prefer to use after that is simply an apt-get away.
> Let's not think in terms of "This is what I would prefer" but rather "This
> is what a user on a low spec machine would prefer".
>
> On Wed, Nov 9, 2011 at 3:21 PM, Jeremy Bicha  wrote:
>
>> On 9 November 2011 06:03, Leszek Lesner  wrote:
>>
>> > In my view Chromium offers still better features than firefox. Just look
>> > at the HTML5 capabilities it just beats firefox here with in my view
>> > important things just like HTML5 videoplayback (H264 is supported)
>>
>> Google is dropping H264 support:
>> http://blog.chromium.org/2011/01/html-video-codec-support-in-chrome.html
>>
>> > or the fact that every browser tab in chromium is running as a different
>> > process in a sandbox which makes a crash of one tab not concerning for
>> > other tabs.
>>
>> Firefox might do that in the future also, but it costs memory to
>> sandbox each browser tab. And I believe Chromium cheats: when
>> available memory gets too low, tabs begin sharing the same process so
>> it's a bit harder to know what's really going on.
>>
>> > All in all I am in flavor of Chromium as its still faster and offers the
>> > better features.
>>
>> That's a bit subjective as Firefox also offers unique features: It's
>> possible to run a few hundred tabs in Firefox; the design of
>> Chromium's tabbar makes that much more painful in Chromium. Firefox
>> has a much more powerful addon framework (although Chromium may
>> improve this next year). The user has more control over his data with
>> Firefox Sync than with Google's version.
>>
>> While I'm not a Google-hater, I think it's very important for the free
>> web that Mozilla continues to exist. Since Mozilla is a bit more open
>> than Chromium and multiple steps more open than Android, I think open
>> source fans should consider supporting Firefox if the features are
>> nearly equal, which in my opinion they are. This is why I hope Firefox
>> continues to remain the Ubuntu default browser. Since Lubuntu has
>> different constraints in choosing default apps, I'll let Julien and
>> the Lubuntu devs make their own evaluation. Both browsers are fully
>> supported in Ubuntu (Canonical is looking to hire someone who can help
>> maintain Chromium).
>>
>> Jeremy
>>
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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] [12.04] Firefox instead of Chromium?

2011-11-09 Thread Gabriel Salles 
Should we consider Epiphany too or it is not stable enough yet?

Gabriel Salles



2011/11/9 A. Andjelkovic 

> Let's not start a war here... I don't want to be rude, but please keep
> such personal opinions out of this discussion.
> I think we can all agree that both Firefox and Chromium are rich in
> features.
> We are simply trying to find out which browser, out of Firefox and
> Chromium, use the least resources.
> We want to chose the lightest of the two to be our out-of-the-box web
> browser, whatever users prefer to use after that is simply an apt-get away.
> Let's not think in terms of "This is what I would prefer" but rather "This
> is what a user on a low spec machine would prefer".
>
> On Wed, Nov 9, 2011 at 3:21 PM, Jeremy Bicha  wrote:
>
>> On 9 November 2011 06:03, Leszek Lesner  wrote:
>>
>> > In my view Chromium offers still better features than firefox. Just look
>> > at the HTML5 capabilities it just beats firefox here with in my view
>> > important things just like HTML5 videoplayback (H264 is supported)
>>
>> Google is dropping H264 support:
>> http://blog.chromium.org/2011/01/html-video-codec-support-in-chrome.html
>>
>> > or the fact that every browser tab in chromium is running as a different
>> > process in a sandbox which makes a crash of one tab not concerning for
>> > other tabs.
>>
>> Firefox might do that in the future also, but it costs memory to
>> sandbox each browser tab. And I believe Chromium cheats: when
>> available memory gets too low, tabs begin sharing the same process so
>> it's a bit harder to know what's really going on.
>>
>> > All in all I am in flavor of Chromium as its still faster and offers the
>> > better features.
>>
>> That's a bit subjective as Firefox also offers unique features: It's
>> possible to run a few hundred tabs in Firefox; the design of
>> Chromium's tabbar makes that much more painful in Chromium. Firefox
>> has a much more powerful addon framework (although Chromium may
>> improve this next year). The user has more control over his data with
>> Firefox Sync than with Google's version.
>>
>> While I'm not a Google-hater, I think it's very important for the free
>> web that Mozilla continues to exist. Since Mozilla is a bit more open
>> than Chromium and multiple steps more open than Android, I think open
>> source fans should consider supporting Firefox if the features are
>> nearly equal, which in my opinion they are. This is why I hope Firefox
>> continues to remain the Ubuntu default browser. Since Lubuntu has
>> different constraints in choosing default apps, I'll let Julien and
>> the Lubuntu devs make their own evaluation. Both browsers are fully
>> supported in Ubuntu (Canonical is looking to hire someone who can help
>> maintain Chromium).
>>
>> Jeremy
>>
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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] [12.04] Firefox instead of Chromium?

2011-11-09 Thread A. Andjelkovic 
Let's not start a war here... I don't want to be rude, but please keep such
personal opinions out of this discussion.
I think we can all agree that both Firefox and Chromium are rich in
features.
We are simply trying to find out which browser, out of Firefox and
Chromium, use the least resources.
We want to chose the lightest of the two to be our out-of-the-box web
browser, whatever users prefer to use after that is simply an apt-get away.
Let's not think in terms of "This is what I would prefer" but rather "This
is what a user on a low spec machine would prefer".

On Wed, Nov 9, 2011 at 3:21 PM, Jeremy Bicha  wrote:

> On 9 November 2011 06:03, Leszek Lesner  wrote:
>
> > In my view Chromium offers still better features than firefox. Just look
> > at the HTML5 capabilities it just beats firefox here with in my view
> > important things just like HTML5 videoplayback (H264 is supported)
>
> Google is dropping H264 support:
> http://blog.chromium.org/2011/01/html-video-codec-support-in-chrome.html
>
> > or the fact that every browser tab in chromium is running as a different
> > process in a sandbox which makes a crash of one tab not concerning for
> > other tabs.
>
> Firefox might do that in the future also, but it costs memory to
> sandbox each browser tab. And I believe Chromium cheats: when
> available memory gets too low, tabs begin sharing the same process so
> it's a bit harder to know what's really going on.
>
> > All in all I am in flavor of Chromium as its still faster and offers the
> > better features.
>
> That's a bit subjective as Firefox also offers unique features: It's
> possible to run a few hundred tabs in Firefox; the design of
> Chromium's tabbar makes that much more painful in Chromium. Firefox
> has a much more powerful addon framework (although Chromium may
> improve this next year). The user has more control over his data with
> Firefox Sync than with Google's version.
>
> While I'm not a Google-hater, I think it's very important for the free
> web that Mozilla continues to exist. Since Mozilla is a bit more open
> than Chromium and multiple steps more open than Android, I think open
> source fans should consider supporting Firefox if the features are
> nearly equal, which in my opinion they are. This is why I hope Firefox
> continues to remain the Ubuntu default browser. Since Lubuntu has
> different constraints in choosing default apps, I'll let Julien and
> the Lubuntu devs make their own evaluation. Both browsers are fully
> supported in Ubuntu (Canonical is looking to hire someone who can help
> maintain Chromium).
>
> Jeremy
>
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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] [12.04] Firefox instead of Chromium?

2011-11-09 Thread Jeremy Bicha 
On 9 November 2011 06:03, Leszek Lesner  wrote:

> In my view Chromium offers still better features than firefox. Just look
> at the HTML5 capabilities it just beats firefox here with in my view
> important things just like HTML5 videoplayback (H264 is supported)

Google is dropping H264 support:
http://blog.chromium.org/2011/01/html-video-codec-support-in-chrome.html

> or the fact that every browser tab in chromium is running as a different
> process in a sandbox which makes a crash of one tab not concerning for
> other tabs.

Firefox might do that in the future also, but it costs memory to
sandbox each browser tab. And I believe Chromium cheats: when
available memory gets too low, tabs begin sharing the same process so
it's a bit harder to know what's really going on.

> All in all I am in flavor of Chromium as its still faster and offers the
> better features.

That's a bit subjective as Firefox also offers unique features: It's
possible to run a few hundred tabs in Firefox; the design of
Chromium's tabbar makes that much more painful in Chromium. Firefox
has a much more powerful addon framework (although Chromium may
improve this next year). The user has more control over his data with
Firefox Sync than with Google's version.

While I'm not a Google-hater, I think it's very important for the free
web that Mozilla continues to exist. Since Mozilla is a bit more open
than Chromium and multiple steps more open than Android, I think open
source fans should consider supporting Firefox if the features are
nearly equal, which in my opinion they are. This is why I hope Firefox
continues to remain the Ubuntu default browser. Since Lubuntu has
different constraints in choosing default apps, I'll let Julien and
the Lubuntu devs make their own evaluation. Both browsers are fully
supported in Ubuntu (Canonical is looking to hire someone who can help
maintain Chromium).

Jeremy

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] [12.04] Firefox instead of Chromium?

2011-11-09 Thread Leszek Lesner 
Am 09.11.2011 10:55, schrieb Chris:
> Bonjour Jean-Pierre,
>
> I don't know if this is correct, but I'm a little concerned for if the
>>> machines will support the test? We're talking about Pentium 3 & 4 and 256
>>> to 512 ram.
>> It's like Ali said, it's just a script which does some automated actions,
> like see what the CPU usage and MEM consumption. The idea for now is just
> shutting down all current processes of chromium-browser/firefox (or just
> checking if it's already running or completely shutting down) and starting
> a default set of tabs. That way the results should be comparable and
> "doable" for every machine.
>
> With metta, Chris
>
>
Its somehow funny to see everyone trying to look into the memory
consumption of firefox vs. chromium. But I just want keep in mind that
those aren't the only criteria for firefox vs. chromium.
Don't forget to compare them feature wise.
In my view Chromium offers still better features than firefox. Just look
at the HTML5 capabilities it just beats firefox here with in my view
important things just like HTML5 videoplayback (H264 is supported)
or the fact that every browser tab in chromium is running as a different
process in a sandbox which makes a crash of one tab not concerning for
other tabs. Also the startup time of chromium is still far better than
the one of firefox. Chromium also offers some little nice features like
a incognito mode that can be used alongside with the normal browsing
mode (which firefox does not have, as it closes the 'normal' browser and
opens with a incognito profile)
The memory consumption is nearly the same. Chromium seems to have a
lower memory consumption when it comes to a few open tabs. If you have
more than 5 tabs open firefox might be lower on memory consumption but
this is only my impression so far(I did not do any tests on it). If you
want to dig deep into the materia I guess reading out /proc processes is
the right way to go, or you could use the kde systemmonitor (sysguard)
which offers the most accurate memory consumption details of all the
systemmonitors so far (even giving you a list of /proc processes it
analyzed) 

All in all I am in flavor of Chromium as its still faster and offers the
better features.

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] [12.04] Firefox instead of Chromium?

2011-11-09 Thread ∅ 

On 11/09/2011 01:55 AM, Chris wrote:
P.S.: I still need to look into the performance test-suite of Tom's 
Hardware what that does exactly
Not sure about Tom's but I couldn't find any really good solutions for 
benchmarking (I was sniffing around OpenBenchmarking) browsers outside 
of silly stuff like Java and such. I certainly couldn't find anything 
that could reliably, repeatably measure startup speed. I think that's 
going to be our most contentious issue with this project.


wxl/walter

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] [12.04] Firefox instead of Chromium?

2011-11-09 Thread Chris 
Bonjour Jean-Pierre,

I don't know if this is correct, but I'm a little concerned for if the
>> machines will support the test? We're talking about Pentium 3 & 4 and 256
>> to 512 ram.
>
> It's like Ali said, it's just a script which does some automated actions,
like see what the CPU usage and MEM consumption. The idea for now is just
shutting down all current processes of chromium-browser/firefox (or just
checking if it's already running or completely shutting down) and starting
a default set of tabs. That way the results should be comparable and
"doable" for every machine.

With metta, Chris

P.S.: I still need to look into the performance test-suite of Tom's
Hardware what that does exactly.
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