Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Lubuntu could end up like Xubuntu (Heavy Slow)

2009-06-29 Thread jon york

Hi guys, completely agree with all of this, but first i think is to determine 
what we want our market to be. Do we want to be out of the box, forget about 
needed to install something to make it usable (ie: flash, codecs) or do we 
want to be a bare minimum speedy OS. either way, i like both ideas, but we do 
need to determine what we wish to be and go for it. Il admit, i am ignorant of 
the rules or objectives we need to meet to be a ubuntu derivative, and we must 
adhere to that, But Mr. Ed Hewitt brings up some very valid points,

I have been selling linux based computers for years now, and I have a good idea 
of what people want either way.

Jon York



From: wiebelh...@gmail.com
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 12:49:44 -0500
To: lubuntu-desktop@lists.launchpad.net
Subject: Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Lubuntu could end up like Xubuntu (Heavy
Slow)

Ed Hewitt makes some very good points , Something to look at would be the 
Fluxbuntu project the 7.10 Version was amazing because it was very very slim 
nothing except the essentials installed but it also retained the availability 
of all those other apps by using the official repositories. I don't think 
anyone has to worry about something missing because the people that would be 
drawn to Lubuntu would certinaly be savvy enough to fetch it for themselves.



What's good isn't always golden , I agree with the minilmist idea that Ed 
Hewitt proposed here.

Cheers!.

Dallas Wiebelhaus.





On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 12:40 PM, Ed Hewitt edwardahew...@googlemail.com 
wrote:


Hi,

I'm Ed Hewitt (chewit in IRC). I have just joined the Lubuntu team in 
Launchpad, I am very keen to give you help with the Lubuntu project. I have 
been using Xubuntu since 7.10 release, and over the years Xubuntu has been 
getting heavier and slower after each release. This has been down two things. 
First, the Ubuntu developers adding more applications and utilies to improve 
the usability of the operating system. Secondly, Xubuntu is just Ubuntu with 
Xfce 'bolted on'. No thought has gone into using as little gnome depencies as 
possible. These two points have made Xubuntu heavy and slow, and not a 
lightweight distro. It is very close to being as heavy as Ubuntu!




My worry with the Lubuntu project is that when it becomes an official Ubuntu 
distro, it will have loads of extra apps added which will make it slow and 
heavy like Xubuntu. It will be a waste your time creating a distro which went 
the same way as Xubuntu. I am writing this message to warn you that it could 
happen. I want to join the Lubuntu and help decide the best applications to add 
to the operating systems and ways to make it as light as possible.




I have looked at the Lubuntu application list and I am already concerned with 
the success of the project. It appears Lubuntu will have more applications 
installed than the Ubuntu install!

The best way I see Lubuntu being setup is to carefully follow the way Debian is 
created, since Debain is very lightweight. I believe it is best to use the 
Ubuntu minimal install with LXDE added on, then we add a carefully selection of 
applications. Such as:




Web browser - FirefoxEmail - ClawsChat - Pidgin, Xchat
Office - Abiword, Gnumeric, ePDFMedia - Totem, Rhythmbox (would like to use 
VLC, but it uses QT4)GIMP


Synaptic  Update Manager is a mustGnome network manager (need good network 
support, however it needs to start on boot up)
Some Xfce apps - Notifyd (very nice notification system), taskmanager (but 
could use lxde task), power manager


We want to keep the apps list small, basic apps which most people will use. 
Video editing, ftp clients and programming apps are not needed on the base 
install. If we add loads of apps, we will be a heavy distro. With Lubuntu its 
performance and lightweight first, sadly xubuntu forgot about that. 




Would like to hear what the whole team thinks and if I can be some help in the 
development of Lubuntu.

-- 
www.edhewitt.co.uk




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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Forum

2009-06-29 Thread Dallas Wiebelhaus
Thanks!


On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 3:16 PM, jon york jr_...@hotmail.com wrote:

  Hi guys

 here is the forum location, just a quick and free forum for us, I am a
 webmaster, and own my own host, so we can discuss that later when we
 actually have a beta version to release to public, and we are ready to
 submit for an official variation of ubuntu

 here is the forum

 http://lubuntu.forumotion.comhttp://lubuntu.forumotion.com/login.forum?username=Admin

 have fun guys and girls :P

 Jon York


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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Lubuntu could end up like Xubuntu (Heavy Slow)

2009-06-29 Thread Dallas Wiebelhaus
Good eye there David!

On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 5:15 PM, David Sugar david.su...@canonical.comwrote:

 Related to this question is what to do with what is currently the
 separate lxde blueprint in Launchpad:


 https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/mobile-karmic-lxde-ubuntu-desktop

 I would be happy to see about transferring it to the Lubuntu Team if the
 Lubuntu team does wish to formally take it over...

 In any case, yes, I also think the key is finding the right reasonable
 mix.

 Ed Hewitt wrote:
  I think we should go with Firefox. However, OpenOffice would solve the
  problem of having no presentation software if we went with Abiword 
  Gnumeric. We could use these tweaks to speed up OpenOffice. 
 
 http://lifehacker.com/software/optimization/speed-up-openoffice-270775.php
 
  By going small, we will achieve the objective of achieving a
  lightweight distro. However, I still think a good out of the box
  experience, as long as we keep it to a minimal. So by having a few basic
  utilities (such as synaptic), need a few must have apps (such as web
  browser, office apps, chat, media player). we can still achieve a user
  friend lightweight distro. Its all about getting the right balance.
 
  Maybe another Lubuntu IRC Meeting could be useful to discuss my points.
  It would be great to have an application list set in time for Karmic.
  Could be Lubuntu's first release
 
  --
  www.edhewitt.co.uk http://www.edhewitt.co.uk
 
 
  
 
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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Lubuntu could end up like Xubuntu (Heavy Slow)

2009-06-29 Thread Dallas Wiebelhaus
Yep , but Debian LXDE does have the entire open office suite installed and
it weights in at just under 500 megs.

On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 6:25 PM, Andrew Woodhead 
andrew.woodhead...@googlemail.com wrote:

 It's not copying, it is as you say learning from others. OpenOffice just
 isn't suitable but will be accessible via reops if you must install it. I
 personally only use abiword and know a great many users who have the entire
 suite installed and only use the writer. Its laughable.


 On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 12:22 AM, Dallas Wiebelhaus 
 wiebelh...@gmail.comwrote:

 I agree Abiword is so incredibly fast and small and if someone has not
 tried it they should give it a spin , it's a brilliant little application! I
 could foresee someone adding openoffice if they needed that extra
 functionality but for simple out of the box word processing in a small
 efficient quick package , abiword can't be beat. We should all take a long
 hard look at what other small distributions are doing because they like
 Puppy have already pounded these discussions out , I'm not saying to copy
 but to learn from from their methodology.


 On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 6:14 PM, Andrew Woodhead 
 andrew.woodhead...@googlemail.com wrote:

 OpenOffice in my opinion is far too bulky for a lightweight distro.

 0 upgraded, 44 newly installed, 0 to remove and 0 not upgraded.
 Need to get 123MB of archives.
 After this operation, 412MB of additional disk space will be used.

 Its just stupidly fat and bloated and doesn't fit with the ethos of
 Lubuntu. 0.5Gb for office productivity when gnumeric and abiword use a
 microscopic fraction of this.

 No way

 -Andy



  On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 10:52 PM, Ed Hewitt 
 edwardahew...@googlemail.com wrote:

  I think we should go with Firefox. However, OpenOffice would solve the
 problem of having no presentation software if we went with Abiword 
 Gnumeric. We could use these tweaks to speed up OpenOffice. 
 http://lifehacker.com/software/optimization/speed-up-openoffice-270775.php

 By going small, we will achieve the objective of achieving a
 lightweight distro. However, I still think a good out of the box 
 experience,
 as long as we keep it to a minimal. So by having a few basic utilities 
 (such
 as synaptic), need a few must have apps (such as web browser, office apps,
 chat, media player). we can still achieve a user friend lightweight distro.
 Its all about getting the right balance.

 Maybe another Lubuntu IRC Meeting could be useful to discuss my points.
 It would be great to have an application list set in time for Karmic. Could
 be Lubuntu's first release

 --
 www.edhewitt.co.uk

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] U-Lite

2009-06-29 Thread C David Rigby
On Mon, 2009-06-29 at 18:46 -0500, Dallas Wiebelhaus wrote:
 For some reason I had forgotten that U-Lite was using LXDE , I thought
 they were using XFCE , maybe because of the recent alpha screenshots.
 
 I just want to make sure that the Lubuntu people are Aware of U-Lite
 are these two projects related or completely separate?
 
 http://u-lite.org/

Shae Smittle, the maintainer and developer of U-lite, is involved with
the Lubuntu project. I'll leave it to him to fill in details.

Cheers
C David Rigby


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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] U-Lite

2009-06-29 Thread Dallas Wiebelhaus
Hey! That's great no need for details if they are private I just wanted to
make sure by getting involved there was not going to be any toes being
stepped on.

On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 7:16 PM, C David Rigby c.david.ri...@gmail.comwrote:

 On Mon, 2009-06-29 at 18:46 -0500, Dallas Wiebelhaus wrote:
  For some reason I had forgotten that U-Lite was using LXDE , I thought
  they were using XFCE , maybe because of the recent alpha screenshots.
 
  I just want to make sure that the Lubuntu people are Aware of U-Lite
  are these two projects related or completely separate?
 
  http://u-lite.org/

 Shae Smittle, the maintainer and developer of U-lite, is involved with
 the Lubuntu project. I'll leave it to him to fill in details.

 Cheers
 C David Rigby


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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Lubuntu could end up like Xubuntu (Heavy Slow)

2009-06-29 Thread Andrew Woodhead
This is kinda surplus, the system is still ubuntu based so the standard
repos can be used to install apps if they are needed.
If the OS is going to be as it says below, you may as well install a minimal
install then have a gui to select apps which can then be installed off the
repos. This however isn't the case, we are trying to make a smalland
efficient distro with a decent amount of functionality without bloating the
system with the likes of evolution, openoffice and firefox. These are fully
installable once the installation has completed but the initial base system
should be slick and quick

On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 1:14 AM, C David Rigby c.david.ri...@gmail.comwrote:

 On Mon, 2009-06-29 at 18:40 +0100, Ed Hewitt and several others wrote:

 discussion of keep it light or feature complete elided

 Restating the obvious, but the engineering trade off is always between
 ease of use/fully featured on the one hand and lightweight on the
 other. The necessary criterion is to decide what we really want to
 build, and make it unique and useful enough to attract interest.

 I've proposed it before, but I'll say it again as more people are on the
 list now (sorry that I've missed the IRC meetings for the last two weeks
 where the app mix has been the topic of discussion). How about the
 possibility of a very slim base install with the installer offering
 bundles to meet individual needs and desires? Something like the
 FreeBSD or Debian text installers comes to mind.

 The base installation would be just a command-line, network-capable
 system plus enough of X to get LXDE operational. We would be pushing the
 real work to the installer. The installer, whether text-based or
 grahpical, would need to provide a lot of choices of bundles to
 install.

 More importantly, I think the installer should provide something I have
 yet to see. That something is extensive documentation of the choices of
 bundles of applications, and what they mean in terms of system
 performance vs features. It should be organized so that a savvy user
 could bypass the explanations (or load a jumpstart script), but a novice
 would get a detailed explanation of what the choices are and what they
 mean for the final installed system.

 My $0.02.

 Cheers
 C David Rigby


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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Lubuntu could end up like Xubuntu (Heavy Slow)

2009-06-29 Thread Dallas Wiebelhaus
By the way , Chrome fits in like it's native and is running hella fast on
this DE on my test box. I'm about to crank the ram down and see how low I
can get.

On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 8:15 PM, Andrew Woodhead 
andrew.woodhead...@googlemail.com wrote:

 This is kinda surplus, the system is still ubuntu based so the standard
 repos can be used to install apps if they are needed.
 If the OS is going to be as it says below, you may as well install a
 minimal install then have a gui to select apps which can then be installed
 off the repos. This however isn't the case, we are trying to make a smalland
 efficient distro with a decent amount of functionality without bloating the
 system with the likes of evolution, openoffice and firefox. These are fully
 installable once the installation has completed but the initial base system
 should be slick and quick


 On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 1:14 AM, C David Rigby c.david.ri...@gmail.comwrote:

 On Mon, 2009-06-29 at 18:40 +0100, Ed Hewitt and several others wrote:

 discussion of keep it light or feature complete elided

 Restating the obvious, but the engineering trade off is always between
 ease of use/fully featured on the one hand and lightweight on the
 other. The necessary criterion is to decide what we really want to
 build, and make it unique and useful enough to attract interest.

 I've proposed it before, but I'll say it again as more people are on the
 list now (sorry that I've missed the IRC meetings for the last two weeks
 where the app mix has been the topic of discussion). How about the
 possibility of a very slim base install with the installer offering
 bundles to meet individual needs and desires? Something like the
 FreeBSD or Debian text installers comes to mind.

 The base installation would be just a command-line, network-capable
 system plus enough of X to get LXDE operational. We would be pushing the
 real work to the installer. The installer, whether text-based or
 grahpical, would need to provide a lot of choices of bundles to
 install.

 More importantly, I think the installer should provide something I have
 yet to see. That something is extensive documentation of the choices of
 bundles of applications, and what they mean in terms of system
 performance vs features. It should be organized so that a savvy user
 could bypass the explanations (or load a jumpstart script), but a novice
 would get a detailed explanation of what the choices are and what they
 mean for the final installed system.

 My $0.02.

 Cheers
 C David Rigby


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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Lubuntu could end up like Xubuntu (Heavy Slow)

2009-06-29 Thread Dallas Wiebelhaus
Stabilized without hiccups at 128mb ram , that's without youtube lagging out
, you can go lower no doubt.

On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 8:27 PM, Dallas Wiebelhaus wiebelh...@gmail.comwrote:

 By the way , Chrome fits in like it's native and is running hella fast on
 this DE on my test box. I'm about to crank the ram down and see how low I
 can get.


 On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 8:15 PM, Andrew Woodhead 
 andrew.woodhead...@googlemail.com wrote:

 This is kinda surplus, the system is still ubuntu based so the standard
 repos can be used to install apps if they are needed.
 If the OS is going to be as it says below, you may as well install a
 minimal install then have a gui to select apps which can then be installed
 off the repos. This however isn't the case, we are trying to make a smalland
 efficient distro with a decent amount of functionality without bloating the
 system with the likes of evolution, openoffice and firefox. These are fully
 installable once the installation has completed but the initial base system
 should be slick and quick


 On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 1:14 AM, C David Rigby 
 c.david.ri...@gmail.comwrote:

 On Mon, 2009-06-29 at 18:40 +0100, Ed Hewitt and several others wrote:

 discussion of keep it light or feature complete elided

 Restating the obvious, but the engineering trade off is always between
 ease of use/fully featured on the one hand and lightweight on the
 other. The necessary criterion is to decide what we really want to
 build, and make it unique and useful enough to attract interest.

 I've proposed it before, but I'll say it again as more people are on the
 list now (sorry that I've missed the IRC meetings for the last two weeks
 where the app mix has been the topic of discussion). How about the
 possibility of a very slim base install with the installer offering
 bundles to meet individual needs and desires? Something like the
 FreeBSD or Debian text installers comes to mind.

 The base installation would be just a command-line, network-capable
 system plus enough of X to get LXDE operational. We would be pushing the
 real work to the installer. The installer, whether text-based or
 grahpical, would need to provide a lot of choices of bundles to
 install.

 More importantly, I think the installer should provide something I have
 yet to see. That something is extensive documentation of the choices of
 bundles of applications, and what they mean in terms of system
 performance vs features. It should be organized so that a savvy user
 could bypass the explanations (or load a jumpstart script), but a novice
 would get a detailed explanation of what the choices are and what they
 mean for the final installed system.

 My $0.02.

 Cheers
 C David Rigby


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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Lubuntu could end up like Xubuntu (Heavy Slow)

2009-06-29 Thread jon york

Hi guys, why dont we move this to the forum where it can be easier to document 
and organize these conversations?

also on that topic, in my opinion, we need to divide us into work partners, as 
right now, there is much discussion and no work being done. I think the first 
step, is quite simply that a select few people, who know LXDE and ubuntu the 
best, that they can create a base system that we can work with. this system 
should be very small, and include nothing but the neccesairy files to run lxde 
on ubuntu, as well as synaptic. that way, we can all have the same base system 
to work with, and test things out with.

Jon York



From: wiebelh...@gmail.com
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 20:41:09 -0500
To: lubuntu-desktop@lists.launchpad.net
Subject: Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Lubuntu could end up like Xubuntu (Heavy
Slow)

Stabilized without hiccups at 128mb ram , that's without youtube lagging out , 
you can go lower no doubt.  

On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 8:27 PM, Dallas Wiebelhaus wiebelh...@gmail.com wrote:


By the way , Chrome fits in like it's native and is running hella fast on this 
DE on my test box. I'm about to crank the ram down and see how low I can get.



On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 8:15 PM, Andrew Woodhead 
andrew.woodhead...@googlemail.com wrote:



This is kinda surplus, the system is still ubuntu based so the standard repos 
can be used to install apps if they are needed.



If the OS is going to be as it says below, you may as well install a minimal 
install then have a gui to select apps which can then be installed off the 
repos. This however isn't the case, we are trying to make a smalland efficient 
distro with a decent amount of functionality without bloating the system with 
the likes of evolution, openoffice and firefox. These are fully installable 
once the installation has completed but the initial base system should be slick 
and quick





On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 1:14 AM, C David Rigby c.david.ri...@gmail.com wrote:




On Mon, 2009-06-29 at 18:40 +0100, Ed Hewitt and several others wrote:



discussion of keep it light or feature complete elided



Restating the obvious, but the engineering trade off is always between

ease of use/fully featured on the one hand and lightweight on the

other. The necessary criterion is to decide what we really want to

build, and make it unique and useful enough to attract interest.



I've proposed it before, but I'll say it again as more people are on the

list now (sorry that I've missed the IRC meetings for the last two weeks

where the app mix has been the topic of discussion). How about the

possibility of a very slim base install with the installer offering

bundles to meet individual needs and desires? Something like the

FreeBSD or Debian text installers comes to mind.



The base installation would be just a command-line, network-capable

system plus enough of X to get LXDE operational. We would be pushing the

real work to the installer. The installer, whether text-based or

grahpical, would need to provide a lot of choices of bundles to

install.



More importantly, I think the installer should provide something I have

yet to see. That something is extensive documentation of the choices of

bundles of applications, and what they mean in terms of system

performance vs features. It should be organized so that a savvy user

could bypass the explanations (or load a jumpstart script), but a novice

would get a detailed explanation of what the choices are and what they

mean for the final installed system.



My $0.02.



Cheers

C David Rigby





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