Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] what to do

2010-04-08 Thread Phillip Whiteside 
On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 11:45 PM, Julien Lavergne  wrote:

> However, for the wiki page, I'll re-organize it a bit, adding too much
> information in the Install section make it less clear IMO.
>
>
Thanks,

I apologise for not knowing how to add a new section, as it was only to be
there for until the update system became a part of Lubuntu it was a 'quick
hack'.

Phill.
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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] what to do

2010-04-08 Thread Julien Lavergne 
Le jeudi 08 avril 2010 à 22:38 +0100, Phillip Whiteside a écrit :
> Hi,
> 
> 
> you will have seen the emails going backwards and forwards regarding
> keeping a Lubuntu installation up to date.
> 
> 
> >>There is only one word to describe the act of providing console-only
> help to new
> >>users who are lost in the terminal:
> 
> >>*LAZINESS*
> 
> 
> I have tried to my very limited knowledge to help the project as I
> best it I can. I take personal umbrage over that statement. I'm sorry
> if I got the instructions wrong / not quite "Click an Pick"
> expectations of an *buntu.   Beta versions do require an ability to go
> to CLI. The "'How-To" is only to be there for until the matter had
> been addressed in the system. Constructive crtiticsm   I am quite okay
> with. Telling me that I was "LAZY" to post the amendment to wiki page
> at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Lubuntu#Download Lubuntu  I just wish I
> could point people over
> to http://forum.phillw.net/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=54#p73  from my thread
> at forum.phill I really do not know what more I could do to assist the
> Lubuntu 
> 
> 
> LAZY ? follow the thread, look up the the links; I guess I'm more
> upset over "Trust"
> 
> 
> http://forum.phillw.net/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=54#p73
> http://forum.phillw.net/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=57
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Can I just say that I'm really sorry that the thread became that., I
> was only trying to help

Don't take it so seriously. People on the chan and this mailing list
know you are helpful. Helping people with something is better that do
nothing. And using command line for adding a PPA, well it's quite easy
to understand (is "add-apt-repository" so ... mystic ?). Especially in
development release.

Also flamewars about CLI/GUI is useless. Really, we have others thing to
do.

Regards,
Julien Lavergne



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[Lubuntu-desktop] what to do

2010-04-08 Thread Phillip Whiteside 
Hi,

you will have seen the emails going backwards and forwards regarding keeping
a Lubuntu installation up to date.

>>There is only one word to describe the act of providing console-only help
to new
>>users who are lost in the terminal:

>>*LAZINESS*

I have tried to my very limited knowledge to help the project as I best it I
can. I take personal umbrage over that statement. I'm sorry if I got the
instructions wrong / not quite "Click an Pick" expectations of an *buntu.
Beta versions do require an ability to go to CLI. The "'How-To" is only to
be there for until the matter had been addressed in the system. Constructive
crtiticsm   I am quite okay with. Telling me that I was "LAZY" to post the
amendment to wiki page at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Lubuntu#Download Lubuntu  I
just wish I could point people over to
http://forum.phillw.net/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=54#p73  from my thread at
forum.phill I really do not know what more I could do to assist the Lubuntu

LAZY ? follow the thread, look up the the links; I guess I'm more upset over
"Trust"

http://forum.phillw.net/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=54#p73
http://forum.phillw.net/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=57


Can I just say that I'm really sorry that the thread became that., I was
only trying to help

Regards,

Phill.
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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] adding the ppa & updating

2010-04-08 Thread Phillip Whiteside 
Regarding the 3 comments,

the link I provide to people actually does give a lot of information as to
the 'whys and wherefores' of using the cli (And how to access it) it does
actually explain what the commands are doing. Any 'how to' that needs the
elevation to sudo powers regardless of CLI or GUI can be abused. I did not
post that link to the Wiki as it is not 'official' documentation, I could,
if it is wished ask a couple of the forum moderators about the possibility
of having it put into the Tutorial part of site and refer people to it
there.

I take great care & check that commands using sudo are not going to bork
something (Hence the instructions on copy & paste).

The basic understanding of the CLI is important, IMHO, for people using any
flavour of ubuntu who seek support.

Regards,

Phill.

On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 1:08 PM, Andrew Woodhead <
andrew.woodhead...@googlemail.com> wrote:

> The 3 points below can be applied to the GUI method also. The aim of Ubuntu
> is "it just works" so if it doesn't work we should provide help which
> follows this mantra. Here is the command, it just works just like Ubuntu
> just works.
> Makes complete sense.
>
> On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 12:14 PM, Chow Loong Jin wrote:
>
>> On Thursday 08,April,2010 07:01 PM, Andrew Woodhead wrote:
>> > Because email is text based so text based help is a logical step. Most
>> > of the official documentation also includes text based help which is
>> > usually quicker than a user trying to find what is being described and
>> > possibly clicking the wrong thing and possibly screwing their system. A
>> > command from a knowledgeable user will simply do the job and can be copy
>> > and pasted to the terminal to precisely achieve the goal.
>>
>> While also scaring away new users since they will:
>>  1. not be able to understand the command, or what they are doing
>>  2. be forced to give you their blind trust
>>  3. not be able to reproduce whatever they did again without referring to
>> your
>>e-mail or chat logs because of #1.
>>
>> There is only one word to describe the act of providing console-only help
>> to new
>> users who are lost in the terminal:
>>
>> *LAZINESS*
>>
>> --
>> Kind regards,
>> Chow Loong Jin (GPG: 0x8F02A411)
>> Ubuntu Developer
>>
>>
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>>
>
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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] adding the ppa & updating

2010-04-08 Thread Andrew Woodhead 
The 3 points below can be applied to the GUI method also. The aim of Ubuntu
is "it just works" so if it doesn't work we should provide help which
follows this mantra. Here is the command, it just works just like Ubuntu
just works.
Makes complete sense.

On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 12:14 PM, Chow Loong Jin  wrote:

> On Thursday 08,April,2010 07:01 PM, Andrew Woodhead wrote:
> > Because email is text based so text based help is a logical step. Most
> > of the official documentation also includes text based help which is
> > usually quicker than a user trying to find what is being described and
> > possibly clicking the wrong thing and possibly screwing their system. A
> > command from a knowledgeable user will simply do the job and can be copy
> > and pasted to the terminal to precisely achieve the goal.
>
> While also scaring away new users since they will:
>  1. not be able to understand the command, or what they are doing
>  2. be forced to give you their blind trust
>  3. not be able to reproduce whatever they did again without referring to
> your
>e-mail or chat logs because of #1.
>
> There is only one word to describe the act of providing console-only help
> to new
> users who are lost in the terminal:
>
> *LAZINESS*
>
> --
> Kind regards,
> Chow Loong Jin (GPG: 0x8F02A411)
> Ubuntu Developer
>
>
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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] adding the ppa & updating

2010-04-08 Thread Phillip Whiteside 
It may look very 'pretty' on the wiki page (I am new to editing wiki pages
and did not want to be over verbose and clutter it up).

I currently advise people of the wiki link and also
http://forum.phillw.net/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=54#p73 if they want a bit more
information.

Either way, it is only until Lubuntu gets an update system by default.

Regards,

Phill.

On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 12:01 PM, Andrew Woodhead <
andrew.woodhead...@googlemail.com> wrote:

> Because email is text based so text based help is a logical step. Most of
> the official documentation also includes text based help which is usually
> quicker than a user trying to find what is being described and possibly
> clicking the wrong thing and possibly screwing their system. A command from
> a knowledgeable user will simply do the job and can be copy and pasted to
> the terminal to precisely achieve the goal.
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 11:48 AM, Steve wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 08 Apr 2010 10:36:34 +0100, Andrew Woodhead <
>> andrew.woodhead...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>
>>  why not use command line, so much easier than messing with stupid slow
>>> GUIs:
>>>
>>> sudo add-apt-repository ppa:lubuntu-desktop/ppa; sudo apt-get update;
>>> sudo
>>> apt-get upgrade
>>>
>>> or whatever. Simple to describe in an email rather than "click this click
>>> that type this" etc
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  Because some people are terrified of the command line.  Apart from
>> which, why offer only one solution when others are available
>>
>>
>> --
>> Steve (Yorvyk)
>> http://www.lubuntu.net
>>
>
>
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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] adding the ppa & updating

2010-04-08 Thread Chow Loong Jin 
On Thursday 08,April,2010 07:01 PM, Andrew Woodhead wrote:
> Because email is text based so text based help is a logical step. Most
> of the official documentation also includes text based help which is
> usually quicker than a user trying to find what is being described and
> possibly clicking the wrong thing and possibly screwing their system. A
> command from a knowledgeable user will simply do the job and can be copy
> and pasted to the terminal to precisely achieve the goal.

While also scaring away new users since they will:
 1. not be able to understand the command, or what they are doing
 2. be forced to give you their blind trust
 3. not be able to reproduce whatever they did again without referring to your
e-mail or chat logs because of #1.

There is only one word to describe the act of providing console-only help to new
users who are lost in the terminal:

*LAZINESS*

-- 
Kind regards,
Chow Loong Jin (GPG: 0x8F02A411)
Ubuntu Developer



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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] adding the ppa & updating

2010-04-08 Thread Andrew Woodhead 
Because email is text based so text based help is a logical step. Most of
the official documentation also includes text based help which is usually
quicker than a user trying to find what is being described and possibly
clicking the wrong thing and possibly screwing their system. A command from
a knowledgeable user will simply do the job and can be copy and pasted to
the terminal to precisely achieve the goal.



On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 11:48 AM, Steve  wrote:

> On Thu, 08 Apr 2010 10:36:34 +0100, Andrew Woodhead <
> andrew.woodhead...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
>  why not use command line, so much easier than messing with stupid slow
>> GUIs:
>>
>> sudo add-apt-repository ppa:lubuntu-desktop/ppa; sudo apt-get update; sudo
>> apt-get upgrade
>>
>> or whatever. Simple to describe in an email rather than "click this click
>> that type this" etc
>>
>>
>>
>>  Because some people are terrified of the command line.  Apart from which,
> why offer only one solution when others are available
>
>
> --
> Steve (Yorvyk)
> http://www.lubuntu.net
>
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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] adding the ppa & updating

2010-04-08 Thread Steve 
On Thu, 08 Apr 2010 10:36:34 +0100, Andrew Woodhead  
 wrote:


why not use command line, so much easier than messing with stupid slow  
GUIs:


sudo add-apt-repository ppa:lubuntu-desktop/ppa; sudo apt-get update;  
sudo

apt-get upgrade

or whatever. Simple to describe in an email rather than "click this click
that type this" etc



Because some people are terrified of the command line.  Apart from which,  
why offer only one solution when others are available



--
Steve (Yorvyk)
http://www.lubuntu.net

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] adding the ppa & updating

2010-04-08 Thread Andrew Woodhead 
why not use command line, so much easier than messing with stupid slow GUIs:

sudo add-apt-repository ppa:lubuntu-desktop/ppa; sudo apt-get update; sudo
apt-get upgrade

or whatever. Simple to describe in qan email rather than "click this click
that type this" etc



On Mon, Apr 5, 2010 at 10:19 PM, Phill Whiteside wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Until 'Update Mananger', or the Lubuntu replacement are ready, would be
> okay to add the instructions from post the instructions on Updating Lubuntu
> I was given from http://forum.phillw.net/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=54 to the
> wiki page as part of the 'Download Lubuntu' 
> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Lubuntu#Download
> Lubuntu 
>
> (I will just post the instructions, not my comments on the team ;-) )
>
> Regards,
>
> Phill.
>
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