Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Some considerations about the Precise theme

2011-11-18 Thread Josh Embrey
In regards to going lighter with Lubuntu, we must remember our key targets
and goal.  I switched my GTK and Openbox themes to dark themes and it added
another 40 minutes to my netbook's battery when on full brightness, over an
hour with minimal brightness.  I took every step to ensure that it was just
the colors changing that changed the battery life.  Being LXDE aims at
having a minimal footprint, using dark themes helps minimize power
consumption, continuing with the goal.
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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Some considerations about the Precise theme

2011-11-18 Thread Rafael Laguna
You're right. Dark themes are battery savers, but if they're too dark it
cause fuzzy eyes. Too much light cause eye fatigue. That's why the Oneiric
wall is not as light as older ones, but still light blue.

And there're lots of reasons to be blue. First is corporative. Second is
usability and eye-friendly (and allows hours and hours of fun :D ).

You can check this:
http://books.google.com/books/about/Art_and_visual_perception.html?id=9RktoatXGQ0C

if you want more reasons about what I'm doing for every pixel I design.
It's not just aesthetics. Design means usability. That's why I like window
and menu shadows, they improve visibility and gives attention to the first
plane on screen.

I know, I know, it's boring. But look, Suse is green. I think it's a
mistake associate green (as leaf or nature colour) with energy efficiency.
You can make black thing and keep efficient. Also, PUD Linux and Vector are
green now. Even some people asked me about including yellow wallpapers
because it's warm.

You know it cannot fit for everybody. So going more neutral this time, as
neutral as you'll can use any wallpaper and still looking good with
unsaturated (gray) panels and windows.



 http://lubuntublog.blogspot.com/  http://www.lubuntu.net/



2011/11/18 Josh Embrey thelastorph...@gmail.com

 In regards to going lighter with Lubuntu, we must remember our key targets
 and goal.  I switched my GTK and Openbox themes to dark themes and it added
 another 40 minutes to my netbook's battery when on full brightness, over an
 hour with minimal brightness.  I took every step to ensure that it was just
 the colors changing that changed the battery life.  Being LXDE aims at
 having a minimal footprint, using dark themes helps minimize power
 consumption, continuing with the goal.

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Some considerations about the Precise theme

2011-11-18 Thread Michael Rawson
Besides, green would look like Mint LXDE. I think black is a good thing, but 
that's me.

On Fri, 18 Nov 2011 09:28:33 +0100
神癒礁湖 (Rafael Laguna) rafaellag...@gmail.com wrote:

 You're right. Dark themes are battery savers, but if they're too dark it
 cause fuzzy eyes. Too much light cause eye fatigue. That's why the Oneiric
 wall is not as light as older ones, but still light blue.
 
 And there're lots of reasons to be blue. First is corporative. Second is
 usability and eye-friendly (and allows hours and hours of fun :D ).
 
 You can check this:
 http://books.google.com/books/about/Art_and_visual_perception.html?id=9RktoatXGQ0C
 
 if you want more reasons about what I'm doing for every pixel I design.
 It's not just aesthetics. Design means usability. That's why I like window
 and menu shadows, they improve visibility and gives attention to the first
 plane on screen.
 
 I know, I know, it's boring. But look, Suse is green. I think it's a
 mistake associate green (as leaf or nature colour) with energy efficiency.
 You can make black thing and keep efficient. Also, PUD Linux and Vector are
 green now. Even some people asked me about including yellow wallpapers
 because it's warm.
 
 You know it cannot fit for everybody. So going more neutral this time, as
 neutral as you'll can use any wallpaper and still looking good with
 unsaturated (gray) panels and windows.
 
 
 
  http://lubuntublog.blogspot.com/  http://www.lubuntu.net/
 
 
 
 2011/11/18 Josh Embrey thelastorph...@gmail.com
 
  In regards to going lighter with Lubuntu, we must remember our key targets
  and goal.  I switched my GTK and Openbox themes to dark themes and it added
  another 40 minutes to my netbook's battery when on full brightness, over an
  hour with minimal brightness.  I took every step to ensure that it was just
  the colors changing that changed the battery life.  Being LXDE aims at
  having a minimal footprint, using dark themes helps minimize power
  consumption, continuing with the goal.
 
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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Some considerations about the Precise theme

2011-11-18 Thread Benny Hult
http://www.planetwatt.com/
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_PUPjYNFVMoc/TSyp1KEqy1I/F5c/W1l6T9KQGRM/s1600/wattos.png

Maybe something else?
I would try to aim to something like vanilla buntu.
Darkish panel with space tripping background ;)

On Fri, 2011-11-18 at 02:24 -0300, Jean-Pierre Vidal Piesset wrote:
 But you'll know that the wallpaper must be BLUE ;)
 I would like to propose... Lubuntu going for GREEN!
 
 Reasons?
 - It goes a little more with the standart of efficient SO (this is
 important since it's the OS that most fits with the planet :)
 - It differencies us from Kubuntu  Xubuntu (also blue...) giving
 Lubuntu a self image to the world (see! it's the 'green' ubuntu! - no
 man, it's 'lubuntu')
 
 Could be a dark green, to match well with black  grey and make a
 sober/cool look.
 
 I know that for corporative reasons we should go for blue... BUT imho
 i think that's a paradigm that must fall (ubuntu nor mac are blue!)
 
 Just think about it and tell what you think!
 
 -- jpxsat
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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Minimal Install Problem

2011-11-18 Thread Yorvyk
On Thu, 17 Nov 2011 09:03:38 -0500
Tim Bernhard ohiom...@gmail.com wrote:

 Thanks Stephen,
 
 I found that to enter GRUB you simply press and hold SHIFT.  I added the
 parameter to the end of the the boot command and booted they system and it
 did the same thing.Lubuntu splash and then the screen goes blank.
 
 
 Tim
 
 On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 7:36 AM, Stephen Smally 
 eco.st...@fastwebnet.itwrote:
 
   On 11/17/2011 04:49 AM, Tim Bernhard wrote:
 
  Hi Everyone,
 
   I'm, trying to resurrect an old Sony Vaio PCG-9401.  This thing is an
  old Windose ME machine that came with AMD processor, 12GB hard drive and
  64mb of RAM.  I had a 128mb stick of pc-100 so I dropped that in to bring
  the RAM up to 192mb.  I installed Lubuntu using the mini.iso.  It took a
  while but the install completed.
 
   The problem is that after rebooting the system I get the following
  message:
 
   vt596_smbus :00:07.4: SMBUS: Error: Host SMBus controller not
  enabled! - upgrade BIOS or use force=1
 
 
   After that, the Lubuntu splash screen is briefly displayed and then the
  screen goes blank.
 
   Any ideas?
 
   Thanks,
 
   Tim
 
 
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  try to enter into the grub (you have to hit some keys if it doesn't show
  up automatically, something like Canc, google for it), go on the line that
  says L/Ubuntu * with Linux * (* means the version of the system, 11.10
  with linux 3 or so on), enter e (to edit the entry) and add force=1 after
  quiet splash.
 
  this because the message says:
 
  upgrade BIOS or use force=1
 
  This mean that you grub is too old for Lubuntu, you have to upgrade it, or
  you can add force=1 at the start to avoid the problem.
  if it works i will tell you how to make it persistent (by default when you
  edit an entry the changes you made aren't persistent).
 
  Stephen Smally
 
  P.S. sorry for the different font
 

It would appear there isn't really a solution for this problem, from what I've 
found googling. :(
To cheer you up though, todays xkcd http://xkcd.org/ :)

My only sugestion is to try the alternate install, rather than the minimal 
method.

-- 
Yorvyk

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Some considerations about the Precise theme

2011-11-18 Thread Yorvyk
On Fri, 18 Nov 2011 08:39:40 +
Michael Rawson michaelrawso...@gmail.com wrote:

 Besides, green would look like Mint LXDE. I think black is a good thing, but 
 that's me.
 
I like green as well but, suse also use it as their corporate colours.  Black 
also looks nice , CrunchBang Linux shows how well this works.  We could of 
cause go community orange :)
The problem with green or black themes, is they often don't look good on old 
CRT monitors.  Whereas blue appears to look OK even when the gamma settings are 
somewhat adrift.  From the users I have dealt with over the years, blue themes 
tend not to create any real reaction - of love or hate - that black or green 
themes can.

Stick with blue, the themes we've had so far have all been very pleasant and 
usable even though I'm not a real fan of blue, it doesn't annoy me like some 
colours.

-- 
Yorvyk

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Fwd: Launchpad: Reminder about lubuntu-desktop's PPAs

2011-11-18 Thread Yorvyk
On Fri, 18 Nov 2011 11:07:03 +0700
Julien Lavergne gi...@ubuntu.com wrote:

 Thanks Mario.
 
 Currently, the situation is not very nice, the mailing list is not open 
 anymore, and the PPA is too common. We have to change the mailing or the PPA 
 location, or both.
 
 About the mailing list, the best solution is probably to switch to one (or 1 
 for user help, and 1 for devel ?) on https://lists.ubuntu.com/, since it's a 
 more standard mailing list (no need to be member of the team).
 
It would be nice to have the mailing list on https://lists.ubuntu.com this will 
bring Lubuntu on par with the other official derivatives and may make it easier 
for people to find, and subscribe.   
What would be the difference be between the user and devel lists?  Having the 
two often leads to cross posting when there is a relatively small development 
team and user base.  This can be seen on the LXDE lists.

 The PPA will probably disappears with the time, we need more specialized 
 PPAs, instead of one with many various stuff in it.
 
This would be helpful.  PPAs with all-sorts in are only slightly short of 
useless, as you end you having to pin some applications to stop them upgrading 
in order to try a new version of another.

-- 
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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Minimal Install Problem

2011-11-18 Thread Tim Bernhard
On Fri, Nov 18, 2011 at 5:11 AM, Yorvyk yorvik.ubu...@googlemail.comwrote:


 It would appear there isn't really a solution for this problem, from what
 I've found googling. :(
 To cheer you up though, todays xkcd http://xkcd.org/ :)

 My only sugestion is to try the alternate install, rather than the minimal
 method.

 --
 Yorvyk

Thanks,

I ended up using Wary (from Puppy Linux) and was able to get it running.
Not the most elegant solution, but it works.  It will probably never get
used anyway.  My friend just wanted something for his father to use when he
hangs around his office.  He was going to buy something else so I decided
to see if I could get Lubuntu on it.

Thanks for the XKCD too.  Perfect!  I love this one:  http://xkcd.com/149/
:)

Tim
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[Lubuntu-desktop] Ubuntu Site

2011-11-18 Thread Tim Bernhard
I'm wondering how people find out about Ubuntu derivatives?  When I look at
the Ubuntu site  I don't see anything about other Ubuntu based distros.

Tim
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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Ubuntu Site

2011-11-18 Thread Rafael Laguna
Yes, it's a bit tricky. Look at this:
http://www.ubuntu.com/project/about-ubuntu/derivatives

They're called derivatives, not flavours, so they look like mutations
from the original.

With OpenSuse it's easier:
http://software.opensuse.org/121/es

They look like another type of same distro, I mean, 32bit, 64bit, LXDE
variant, KDE variant...




 http://lubuntublog.blogspot.com/  http://www.lubuntu.net/



2011/11/18 Tim Bernhard ohiom...@gmail.com

 I'm wondering how people find out about Ubuntu derivatives?  When I look
 at the Ubuntu site  I don't see anything about other Ubuntu based distros.

 Tim

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[Lubuntu-desktop] Fw: Dropping i386 non-PAE as a supported kernel flavour in Precise Pangolin

2011-11-18 Thread Julien Lavergne
I forgot to forward this mail from ubuntu-devel, it may have an impact on 
Lubuntu since we shared the same kernel.

Regards,
Julien Lavergne

Begin forwarded message:

Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2011 14:43:28 -0700
From: Tim Gardner tim.gard...@canonical.com
To: Ubuntu Kernel Team kernel-t...@lists.ubuntu.com,  
ubuntu-de...@lists.ubuntu.com
Subject: Dropping i386 non-PAE as a supported kernel flavour in Precise Pangolin


Per discussion at UDS the kernel team is proposing to drop the non-PAE 
i386 flavour. The upgrade path for non-PAE users will be the PAE kernel. 
Those CPUs that do not have i686 and PAE support will be orphaned. To 
the best of my knowledge, these include Intel CPUs prior to Pentium II, 
400Mhz Pentium M, VIA C3, and Geode LX. As far as I know, there are no 
laptop or desktop class CPUs being produced that do not meet these 
minimum requirements.

Before I do something that is difficult to revert, I would like to hear 
from the development community why we should continue to maintain a 
kernel flavour that is (in my opinion) getting increasingly low 
utilization. It is my feeling that an extremely high percentage of users 
of the non-PAE kernel have a CPU that is PAE capable.

If there is sufficient community demand (and support), I would be 
willing to sponsor the first non-PAE kernel upload to Universe.

https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Specs/PreciseKernelConfigReview

We'll be conducting a similar survey for powerpc.

rtg

P.S. For those of you that are totally confused by this email, PAE 
(Physical Address Extension) was an addition to 32 bit x86 CPUs that 
allowed them to address more then 4GB physical memory.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_Address_Extension
-- 
Tim Gardner tim.gard...@canonical.com

-- 
ubuntu-devel mailing list
ubuntu-de...@lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at: 
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel


-- 
Julien Lavergne gi...@ubuntu.com

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Fw: Dropping i386 non-PAE as a supported kernel flavour in Precise Pangolin

2011-11-18 Thread Rafael Laguna
But there're Lubuntu users on Pentium II and similar machines. In fact
they're happy an OS can handle those trashy computers and make them
useable.

Will this affect those users?



 http://lubuntublog.blogspot.com/  http://www.lubuntu.net/



2011/11/18 Julien Lavergne gi...@ubuntu.com

 I forgot to forward this mail from ubuntu-devel, it may have an impact on
 Lubuntu since we shared the same kernel.

 Regards,
 Julien Lavergne

 Begin forwarded message:

 Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2011 14:43:28 -0700
 From: Tim Gardner tim.gard...@canonical.com
 To: Ubuntu Kernel Team kernel-t...@lists.ubuntu.com,
 ubuntu-de...@lists.ubuntu.com
 Subject: Dropping i386 non-PAE as a supported kernel flavour in Precise
 Pangolin


 Per discussion at UDS the kernel team is proposing to drop the non-PAE
 i386 flavour. The upgrade path for non-PAE users will be the PAE kernel.
 Those CPUs that do not have i686 and PAE support will be orphaned. To
 the best of my knowledge, these include Intel CPUs prior to Pentium II,
 400Mhz Pentium M, VIA C3, and Geode LX. As far as I know, there are no
 laptop or desktop class CPUs being produced that do not meet these
 minimum requirements.

 Before I do something that is difficult to revert, I would like to hear
 from the development community why we should continue to maintain a
 kernel flavour that is (in my opinion) getting increasingly low
 utilization. It is my feeling that an extremely high percentage of users
 of the non-PAE kernel have a CPU that is PAE capable.

 If there is sufficient community demand (and support), I would be
 willing to sponsor the first non-PAE kernel upload to Universe.

 https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Specs/PreciseKernelConfigReview

 We'll be conducting a similar survey for powerpc.

 rtg

 P.S. For those of you that are totally confused by this email, PAE
 (Physical Address Extension) was an addition to 32 bit x86 CPUs that
 allowed them to address more then 4GB physical memory.

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_Address_Extension
 --
 Tim Gardner tim.gard...@canonical.com

 --
 ubuntu-devel mailing list
 ubuntu-de...@lists.ubuntu.com
 Modify settings or unsubscribe at:
 https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel


 --
 Julien Lavergne gi...@ubuntu.com

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Fw: Dropping i386 non-PAE as a supported kernel flavour in Precise Pangolin

2011-11-18 Thread Matthew Byers
Yes it will affect Pentium II. Do we have options of compiling the
kernel within lubuntu to continue support.

2011/11/18 神癒礁湖 (Rafael Laguna) rafaellag...@gmail.com

 But there're Lubuntu users on Pentium II and similar machines. In fact
 they're happy an OS can handle those trashy computers and make them
 useable.

 Will this affect those users?



   http://lubuntublog.blogspot.com/  http://www.lubuntu.net/



 2011/11/18 Julien Lavergne gi...@ubuntu.com

 I forgot to forward this mail from ubuntu-devel, it may have an impact on
 Lubuntu since we shared the same kernel.

 Regards,
 Julien Lavergne

 Begin forwarded message:

 Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2011 14:43:28 -0700
 From: Tim Gardner tim.gard...@canonical.com
 To: Ubuntu Kernel Team kernel-t...@lists.ubuntu.com,
 ubuntu-de...@lists.ubuntu.com
 Subject: Dropping i386 non-PAE as a supported kernel flavour in Precise
 Pangolin


 Per discussion at UDS the kernel team is proposing to drop the non-PAE
 i386 flavour. The upgrade path for non-PAE users will be the PAE kernel.
 Those CPUs that do not have i686 and PAE support will be orphaned. To
 the best of my knowledge, these include Intel CPUs prior to Pentium II,
 400Mhz Pentium M, VIA C3, and Geode LX. As far as I know, there are no
 laptop or desktop class CPUs being produced that do not meet these
 minimum requirements.

 Before I do something that is difficult to revert, I would like to hear
 from the development community why we should continue to maintain a
 kernel flavour that is (in my opinion) getting increasingly low
 utilization. It is my feeling that an extremely high percentage of users
 of the non-PAE kernel have a CPU that is PAE capable.

 If there is sufficient community demand (and support), I would be
 willing to sponsor the first non-PAE kernel upload to Universe.

 https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Specs/PreciseKernelConfigReview

 We'll be conducting a similar survey for powerpc.

 rtg

 P.S. For those of you that are totally confused by this email, PAE
 (Physical Address Extension) was an addition to 32 bit x86 CPUs that
 allowed them to address more then 4GB physical memory.

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_Address_Extension
 --
 Tim Gardner tim.gard...@canonical.com

 --
 ubuntu-devel mailing list
 ubuntu-de...@lists.ubuntu.com
 Modify settings or unsubscribe at:
 https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel


 --
 Julien Lavergne gi...@ubuntu.com

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-- 
God Bless
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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Fw: Dropping i386 non-PAE as a supported kernel flavour in Precise Pangolin

2011-11-18 Thread Julien Lavergne
No, we have to rely on kernel in the repositories.

Regards,
Julien Lavergne

On Fri, 18 Nov 2011 19:43:45 +0300
Matthew Byers faintstlsa...@gmail.com wrote:

 Yes it will affect Pentium II. Do we have options of compiling the
 kernel within lubuntu to continue support.
 
 2011/11/18 神癒礁湖 (Rafael Laguna) rafaellag...@gmail.com
 
  But there're Lubuntu users on Pentium II and similar machines. In fact
  they're happy an OS can handle those trashy computers and make them
  useable.
 
  Will this affect those users?
 
 
 
http://lubuntublog.blogspot.com/  http://www.lubuntu.net/
 
 
 
  2011/11/18 Julien Lavergne gi...@ubuntu.com
 
  I forgot to forward this mail from ubuntu-devel, it may have an impact on
  Lubuntu since we shared the same kernel.
 
  Regards,
  Julien Lavergne
 
  Begin forwarded message:
 
  Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2011 14:43:28 -0700
  From: Tim Gardner tim.gard...@canonical.com
  To: Ubuntu Kernel Team kernel-t...@lists.ubuntu.com,
  ubuntu-de...@lists.ubuntu.com
  Subject: Dropping i386 non-PAE as a supported kernel flavour in Precise
  Pangolin
 
 
  Per discussion at UDS the kernel team is proposing to drop the non-PAE
  i386 flavour. The upgrade path for non-PAE users will be the PAE kernel.
  Those CPUs that do not have i686 and PAE support will be orphaned. To
  the best of my knowledge, these include Intel CPUs prior to Pentium II,
  400Mhz Pentium M, VIA C3, and Geode LX. As far as I know, there are no
  laptop or desktop class CPUs being produced that do not meet these
  minimum requirements.
 
  Before I do something that is difficult to revert, I would like to hear
  from the development community why we should continue to maintain a
  kernel flavour that is (in my opinion) getting increasingly low
  utilization. It is my feeling that an extremely high percentage of users
  of the non-PAE kernel have a CPU that is PAE capable.
 
  If there is sufficient community demand (and support), I would be
  willing to sponsor the first non-PAE kernel upload to Universe.
 
  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Specs/PreciseKernelConfigReview
 
  We'll be conducting a similar survey for powerpc.
 
  rtg
 
  P.S. For those of you that are totally confused by this email, PAE
  (Physical Address Extension) was an addition to 32 bit x86 CPUs that
  allowed them to address more then 4GB physical memory.
 
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_Address_Extension
  --
  Tim Gardner tim.gard...@canonical.com
 
  --
  ubuntu-devel mailing list
  ubuntu-de...@lists.ubuntu.com
  Modify settings or unsubscribe at:
  https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel
 
 
  --
  Julien Lavergne gi...@ubuntu.com
 
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 -- 
 God Bless


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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Fw: Dropping i386 non-PAE as a supported kernel flavour in Precise Pangolin

2011-11-18 Thread Phill Whiteside
I think this harks back to how long we will support 10.04 for, we barely
have enough people to backport to that - asking for a 2nd set of
backporting may well be beyond the small number of devs we have. For me,
with dropping of chipsets after 10.04, maybe we could concentrate on
keeping 10.04 alive? If it were actually an LTS they could expect support
until 2015, the kernel should be updated until then, but someone like
Jmarsden would have to agree to issue periodic updates. JMarsden did issue
a 10.04.1 release but there was little reply in terms of getting it tested.
As to hosting any iso's, I remain committed to hosting the 'older' iso's
for Lubuntu that were pre-adoption by Canonical stage on my server area.

Regards,

Phill.

On 18 November 2011 17:25, PCMan pcman...@gmail.com wrote:

 Is it possible to keep an unofficial kernel for old abandoned cpus in
 lubuntu ppa, if there are people willing to maintain it?


 On Sat, Nov 19, 2011 at 1:18 AM, Julien Lavergne gi...@ubuntu.com wrote:

 No, it means that the CPus need to have support for PAE, it's independent
 of the memory.
 Also, the range of hardware affected is not so clear, see the thread on
 ubuntu-devel. I already answered that depending of the list of hardware
 affected, it could be a big support drop for Lubuntu.

 Regards,
 Julien Lavergne

 On Fri, 18 Nov 2011 16:44:20 +
 Michael Rawson michaelrawso...@gmail.com wrote:

  If I understand right, this will only affect those on said machines IF
 they have ~4GB RAM. Which is unlikely, considering they have Pentium IIs.
 
  But I agree, we should keep the old kernels for a bit longer. But then
 we throw a dilemma, where we don't get new kernels. Unless you want a
 kernel developer for Lubuntu.
 
  On Fri, 18 Nov 2011 17:39:02 +0100
  神癒礁湖 (Rafael Laguna) rafaellag...@gmail.com wrote:
 
   But there're Lubuntu users on Pentium II and similar machines. In fact
   they're happy an OS can handle those trashy computers and make them
   useable.
  
   Will this affect those users?
  
  
  
http://lubuntublog.blogspot.com/  http://www.lubuntu.net/
  
  
  
   2011/11/18 Julien Lavergne gi...@ubuntu.com
  
I forgot to forward this mail from ubuntu-devel, it may have an
 impact on
Lubuntu since we shared the same kernel.
   
Regards,
Julien Lavergne
   
Begin forwarded message:
   
Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2011 14:43:28 -0700
From: Tim Gardner tim.gard...@canonical.com
To: Ubuntu Kernel Team kernel-t...@lists.ubuntu.com,
ubuntu-de...@lists.ubuntu.com
Subject: Dropping i386 non-PAE as a supported kernel flavour in
 Precise
Pangolin
   
   
Per discussion at UDS the kernel team is proposing to drop the
 non-PAE
i386 flavour. The upgrade path for non-PAE users will be the PAE
 kernel.
Those CPUs that do not have i686 and PAE support will be orphaned.
 To
the best of my knowledge, these include Intel CPUs prior to Pentium
 II,
400Mhz Pentium M, VIA C3, and Geode LX. As far as I know, there are
 no
laptop or desktop class CPUs being produced that do not meet these
minimum requirements.
   
Before I do something that is difficult to revert, I would like to
 hear
from the development community why we should continue to maintain a
kernel flavour that is (in my opinion) getting increasingly low
utilization. It is my feeling that an extremely high percentage of
 users
of the non-PAE kernel have a CPU that is PAE capable.
   
If there is sufficient community demand (and support), I would be
willing to sponsor the first non-PAE kernel upload to Universe.
   
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Specs/PreciseKernelConfigReview
   
We'll be conducting a similar survey for powerpc.
   
rtg
   
P.S. For those of you that are totally confused by this email, PAE
(Physical Address Extension) was an addition to 32 bit x86 CPUs that
allowed them to address more then 4GB physical memory.
   
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_Address_Extension
--
Tim Gardner tim.gard...@canonical.com
   
--
ubuntu-devel mailing list
ubuntu-de...@lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at:
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel
   
   
--
Julien Lavergne gi...@ubuntu.com
   
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 Mailing 

[Lubuntu-desktop] Roadmap: Bugs to fix before pcmanfm 1.0 release.

2011-11-18 Thread PCMan
I just took hours and cleaned up the bug tracker of pcmanfm and did some
triage for all of the opened bugs today.
Here are the remaining ones I'm going to fix for 1.0 release.

https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?limit=100func=group_id=156956atid=801864assignee=status=1category=artgroup=keyword=submitter=artifact_id=assignee=status=1category=artgroup=557433submitter=keyword=artifact_id=submit=Filtermass_category=mass_priority=mass_resolution=mass_assignee=mass_artgroup=mass_status=mass_cannedresponse=_visit_cookie=411641f74b63b494a940e7e7b370a98d

The other ones are categorized and labeled with 1.1, 1.5, and 2.0
respectively.
Now it's clear what to do for 1.0 release.
Custom actions support for the popup menus is already finished.
(experimental and not recommended for daily use yet)
Now I'm fixing some bugs found in file operations and tried to make the
file operations less CPU intensive.

I'm not able to give a nice time table or release schedule since I have to
find some spare time for coding.
I, however, have did my best to at least define some clear goals for 1.0
release in this bug list.
There will be no change in strings/translations, or UI.

Thank you all for supporting.
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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Fw: Dropping i386 non-PAE as a supported kernel flavour in Precise Pangolin

2011-11-18 Thread Jean-Pierre Vidal Piesset
Last year they dropped support for a lot of machines, now they will drop
for a lot more?
What are the exact benefits of dropping all of that?
Lubuntu is aimed to be fast, but it's able to resurrect those old hardware
so: what will be the the future for those old machines in the near future?
Support for those machines is NOT a waste of space or code, since Lubuntu
can handle them :)

-- jpxsat
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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Ubuntu Site

2011-11-18 Thread Jonathan Marsden
Tim,

On Friday, November 18, 2011 8:26 AM, Tim Bernhard
ohiom...@gmail.com wrote:

 I'm wondering how people find out about Ubuntu derivatives?  When I
 look at the Ubuntu site  I don't see anything about other Ubuntu based
 distros.

It is there.  Three mouse clicks from http://www.ubuntu.com :

  Projects - About Ubuntu - Derivatives

I suspect that in practice, more people learn about them by asking
others who use them.  Word of mouth is *still* a good way to publicize
something.  So, if you like Lubuntu, tell your friends about it :)

Jonathan
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  jmars...@fastmail.fm


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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Fw: Dropping i386 non-PAE as a supported kernel flavour in Precise Pangolin

2011-11-18 Thread Jonathan Marsden
On Friday, November 18, 2011 7:43 PM, Matthew Byers
faintstlsa...@gmail.com wrote:

 Yes it will affect Pentium II.

Evidence, please?  That is not what the original email said at all.  It
is also not what all the info I have on which CPUs can do PAE says.

As far as I know, Pentium Pro and Pentium II CPUs all can do PAE, except
for some 400MHz Pentium M mobile CPUs.

As I understand the email, and based on by fading memory of which CPUs
do PAE, requiring PAE will only exclude Pentium I, a few 400MHz Pentium
M, really old AMD chips, and the less known alternatives such as the
Geode and the VIA C3.

All normal Pentium II processors should handle PAE just fine.  It looks
like wikipedia agrees with this (not that it is always 100% accurate,
but still, it's an easy to find online source).

Do you have info (or real world experience) that indicates otherwise?

*If* this proposed change makes it impractical to run on a Pentium II,
we need to stand up and be counted.  If (as I suspect) it only prevents
use on Pentium I, really old AMD, VIA C3 and Geode, then ... that's a
much smaller population of still-working computers, and I suggest we
let it slide.

Jonathan
-- 
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  jmars...@fastmail.fm


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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Fw: Dropping i386 non-PAE as a supported kernel flavour in Precise Pangolin

2011-11-18 Thread Gabriel Salles
Correct me if I'm wrong, but those CPUs were used with 2, 4 and 8 GB of HD??


 *If* this proposed change makes it impractical to run on a Pentium II,
 we need to stand up and be counted.  If (as I suspect) it only prevents
 use on Pentium I, really old AMD, VIA C3 and Geode, then ... that's a
 much smaller population of still-working computers, and I suggest we
 let it slide.

 Jonathan

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Fw: Dropping i386 non-PAE as a supported kernel flavour in Precise Pangolin

2011-11-18 Thread Harold Neel
There comes a point where hardware becomes obsolete.  Ubuntu itself is not
aiming to be for low end machines and for a desktop is that is trying to
hit the more cutting edge market last decades equipment is a waste of
resources.  I can understand why they're cutting it.

As time goes on support for old systems will be dropped.  But also, time
turns new systems into old systems.  For the people still using a pentium,
it really is time for a new computer. The Pentium came out in 93 and the
Pentium Just in 97.  They had good runs.

On Nov 18, 2011 7:46 PM, Phill Whiteside phi...@vpolink.com wrote:

 Hiyas JM,

 So there is no need to support the dropping of chip sets at 10.04, and
none of at the next release?

 If  Lubuntu cannot support old hardware, as julien has argued  pleaded
about

  What is the point of Lubuntu?

 Have a think of that question. It is one I have been asked many times,
and is it exactly things like this that let me say me say This is the
point...

 regards,

 Phill.





 On Fri, Nov 18, 2011 at 11:10 PM, Jonathan Marsden jmars...@fastmail.fm
wrote:

 On Friday, November 18, 2011 7:43 PM, Matthew Byers
 faintstlsa...@gmail.com wrote:

  Yes it will affect Pentium II.

 Evidence, please?  That is not what the original email said at all.  It
 is also not what all the info I have on which CPUs can do PAE says.

 As far as I know, Pentium Pro and Pentium II CPUs all can do PAE, except
 for some 400MHz Pentium M mobile CPUs.

 As I understand the email, and based on by fading memory of which CPUs
 do PAE, requiring PAE will only exclude Pentium I, a few 400MHz Pentium
 M, really old AMD chips, and the less known alternatives such as the
 Geode and the VIA C3.

 All normal Pentium II processors should handle PAE just fine.  It looks
 like wikipedia agrees with this (not that it is always 100% accurate,
 but still, it's an easy to find online source).

 Do you have info (or real world experience) that indicates otherwise?

 *If* this proposed change makes it impractical to run on a Pentium II,
 we need to stand up and be counted.  If (as I suspect) it only prevents
 use on Pentium I, really old AMD, VIA C3 and Geode, then ... that's a
 much smaller population of still-working computers, and I suggest we
 let it slide.

 Jonathan
 --
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  jmars...@fastmail.fm


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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Fw: Dropping i386 non-PAE as a supported kernel flavour in Precise Pangolin

2011-11-18 Thread Tim Bernhard
I guess the point ends up simply being lxde Ubuntu.

That is fine for a guy like myself because Lubuntu is awsome on my modern 
laptops, but I can see how it deviates from the original mission. nbsp; I feel 
bad for you guys.

Maybe official status isn't what's best for Lubuntu OR maybe you guys need to 
do a side project/distro? (I know, you need more devs.)

Tim



-- Sent from my Palm Pre
On Nov 18, 2011 7:48 PM, Phill Whiteside lt;phi...@vpolink.comgt; wrote:

Hiyas JM,
So there is no need to support the dropping of chip sets at 10.04, and none of 
at the next release?
If nbsp;Lubuntu cannot support old hardware, as julien has argued amp; 
pleaded about

nbsp;What is the point of Lubuntu?nbsp;
Have a think of that question. It is one I have been asked many times, and is 
it exactly things like this that let me say me say This is the point...nbsp;

regards,
Phill.




On Fri, Nov 18, 2011 at 11:10 PM, Jonathan Marsden lt;jmars...@fastmail.fmgt; 
wrote:

On Friday, November 18, 2011 7:43 PM, Matthew Byers

lt;faintstlsa...@gmail.comgt; wrote:



gt; Yes it will affect Pentium II.



Evidence, please? nbsp;That is not what the original email said at all. 
nbsp;It

is also not what all the info I have on which CPUs can do PAE says.



As far as I know, Pentium Pro and Pentium II CPUs all can do PAE, except

for some 400MHz Pentium M mobile CPUs.



As I understand the email, and based on by fading memory of which CPUs

do PAE, requiring PAE will only exclude Pentium I, a few 400MHz Pentium

M, really old AMD chips, and the less known alternatives such as the

Geode and the VIA C3.



All normal Pentium II processors should handle PAE just fine. nbsp;It looks

like wikipedia agrees with this (not that it is always 100% accurate,

but still, it's an easy to find online source).



Do you have info (or real world experience) that indicates otherwise?



*If* this proposed change makes it impractical to run on a Pentium II,

we need to stand up and be counted. nbsp;If (as I suspect) it only prevents

use on Pentium I, really old AMD, VIA C3 and Geode, then ... that's a

much smaller population of still-working computers, and I suggest we

let it slide.



Jonathan

--

 nbsp;Jonathan Marsden

 nbsp;jmars...@fastmail.fm





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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Fw: Dropping i386 non-PAE as a supported kernel flavour in Precise Pangolin

2011-11-18 Thread Jared Norris
Has anyone read the posts from the developers here? Julien asked for
comment, Jonathan did some research and found that only Pentium I and
a limited number of Pentium II mobiles and a sprinkling of even less
other types of CPUs would be affected. I'm not certain but to me even
for the Lubuntu goals this seems to be a very small user base.

Can we stop thinking the worst and get back to going about the process
of seeing if it will actually hinder the Lubuntu goals or not. The
Ubuntu developers have only put it out as a something that MAY happen
depending on feedback. We need to decide what sort of feedback the
team needs to give.

So to this end, my question is, is there a simple command people can
run to see if their CPU can run PAE kernels? I would have thought if
cat /proc/cpuinfo | grep pae would not give any output if the CPUs
weren't capable? I'm not an expert so just wanting to confirm. That
way, instead of just complaining we can request users run this, see if
they will be affected and report back. We can then generate a team
stance and report back to the Ubuntu developers with some real data.


-- 
Regards,

Jared Norris JP(Qual) BBehSc(Psych)
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JaredNorris

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Fw: Dropping i386 non-PAE as a supported kernel flavour in Precise Pangolin

2011-11-18 Thread Jonathan Marsden
On 11/18/2011 04:45 PM, Phill Whiteside wrote:

 So there is no need to support the dropping of chip sets at 10.04,
 and none of at the next release?


The changes in 10.10 that cause it to be unusable on some CPUs are
already made.  I am unclear which exact CPU models can run 10.10 and
11.04 and 11.10 default Ubuntu kernels, but which lack PAE.

I think that there are *very* few such CPUs out there in working general
purpose desktop or laptop computers (not embedded stuff like Soekris and
WRAP boards in routers etc.)... how many such machines do you own?  How
many people can you name who use such CPUs to run Lubuntu today, as
their primary PC to do useful computing, not just for testing?

 If  Lubuntu cannot support old hardware, as julien has argued 
 pleaded about * What is the point of Lubuntu? *


The more nuanced question is how old, and which old hardware, it is
important for Lubuntu to continue to support.  The choice is not between
all old hardware and no old hardware at all.  So the melodrama does
not really help here.

We already told the community we would support Lubuntu 10.04 as an LTS,
so we should keep that commitment (though I don't think we are doing a
very good job of it, to be honest!).  But we made a commitment, so we
should do what we can to honour it.  That is not in question here.

The current issue then becomes a (much narrower, to my mind) one:

  Is it worth fighting the proposed change requiring PAE capability
  in default Ubuntu i386 kernels, and do we have the resources to do so?

Based on my current understanding of which CPUs can run Oneiric default
kernels, but cannot support PAE, I don't think it is worth fighting this
one.  I think there are far more working usable PII and PIII machines
with 128MB or 256MB of RAM that Lubuntu can be useful on, and that are
worth our time and attention, than there are general purpose machines
with Via C3 or Geode LX processors in that people want to run Lubuntu on.

That's just my opinion.  Asking me to please think is unlikely to
change it :)  If you have more specific information about which exact
CPUs are affected, and how many Lubuntu users own and use such machines,
please share it.  That information *might* change it.

Jonathan

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Fw: Dropping i386 non-PAE as a supported kernel flavour in Precise Pangolin

2011-11-18 Thread Jonathan Marsden
On 11/18/2011 05:43 PM, Jared Norris wrote:

 So to this end, my question is, is there a simple command people can
 run to see if their CPU can run PAE kernels? I would have thought if
 cat /proc/cpuinfo | grep pae would not give any output if the CPUs
 weren't capable? I'm not an expert so just wanting to confirm.


That works, but is inelegant.  You win a UUOC award, see
http://partmaps.org/era/unix/award.html grin!

My suggested equivalent (but shorter, clearer and more efficient)
command would be

  grep pae /proc/cpuinfo

Jonathan

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Fw: Dropping i386 non-PAE as a supported kernel flavour in Precise Pangolin

2011-11-18 Thread Jonathan Marsden
On 11/18/2011 11:50 AM, Jean-Pierre Vidal Piesset wrote:

 Last year they dropped support for a lot of machines, now they will
 drop for a lot more?




A lot?  How did you determine this, and can you let us know the
numeric upper and lower bounds of a lot in the second phrase of this
description? :)

Jonathan

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Fw: Dropping i386 non-PAE as a supported kernel flavour in Precise Pangolin

2011-11-18 Thread Jared Norris
On 19 November 2011 16:00, Jonathan Marsden jmars...@fastmail.fm wrote:
 On 11/18/2011 05:43 PM, Jared Norris wrote:

 So to this end, my question is, is there a simple command people can
 run to see if their CPU can run PAE kernels? I would have thought if
 cat /proc/cpuinfo | grep pae would not give any output if the CPUs
 weren't capable? I'm not an expert so just wanting to confirm.


 That works, but is inelegant.  You win a UUOC award, see
 http://partmaps.org/era/unix/award.html grin!

 My suggested equivalent (but shorter, clearer and more efficient)
 command would be

  grep pae /proc/cpuinfo

 Jonathan


Hah thanks, I thought I did well for someone who couldn't program a
hello world script, goes to show why you are great for the Lubuntu
community (keeping things efficient) and I am only capable of
documenting how great you and Julien are ;)

So time for everyone to run the command and let us know if you get no
output. Receiving no output from the command indicates that it's
possible your CPU might be one of the ones they are talking about
removing support for by dropping PAE kernels. That will be the true
test of if this will impact us at all. If no one reports having a
problem then really all this is a storm in a teacup.

-- 
Regards,

Jared Norris JP(Qual) BBehSc(Psych)
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JaredNorris

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