Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] [Bug 911905] Re: hitting enter on install screen 1 forces language to top selection

2012-01-11 Thread Jonathan Marsden
On Wed, Jan 11, 2012, at 10:52 PM, Charlie Kravetz wrote:

 Erick - myself and others can reproduce this issue every image since I
 reported it. It happens with the desktop cd for precise Ubuntu,
 Xubuntu, Lubuntu in both VirtualBox and on hardware. I don't know why
 you can not reproduce it. However, it is still happening with the
 images dated 2012-01-11.

Unable to reproduce here in a Virtualbox 4.1.8 VM using the Lubuntu
2012-01-
11 image downloaded from
http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/lubuntu/daily-live/current/precise-desktop-i386.iso
with an MD5SUM of 6fb4f7c035d2be3416ec675b8cba5552 .

For me, it works fine, language stays as English.

Jonathan
-- 
  Jonathan Marsden
  jmars...@fastmail.fm


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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Integrate obkey (or the like)?

2011-12-29 Thread Jonathan Marsden
On 12/28/2011 06:01 PM, Phill Whiteside wrote:

 To make this little wish list come true, needs a the most precious
 resource of all dev time. Hence my asking the boss if they had
 time. It really looks good, can we spare a dev to babysit it?


Probably; if the upstream obkey author agrees to port to GTK3, and
someone agrees to write a usable man page for it, then I'll attempt
packaging it.  If Julien likes my packaging, then (assuming no
copyright/licencing issues emerge) he can get it into Ubuntu for us :)

How's that for (proposed) teamwork?

Jonathan

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Integrate obkey (or the like)?

2011-12-28 Thread Jonathan Marsden
On Wed, Dec 28, 2011, at 09:00 PM, Phill Whiteside wrote:

 what are the chances of getting this into the repos?

It needs packaging first, before that is possible :)

Obkey seems to use pyGTK 2.x, so I think we'd have a GTK2 vs GTK3 issue,
unless the author is willing to update it to use PyGObject and GTK3?

Other than that, it just needs packaging and documentation, as far as
I can see.  If it were really truly just a matter of packaging, I'd make
an attempt; but I'm not about to volunteer for the related
documentation-
writing and porting-to-PyGObject work.

Jonathan
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  jmars...@fastmail.fm


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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Viewnior?

2011-12-26 Thread Jonathan Marsden
On 12/26/2011 12:09 PM, Jean-Pierre Vidal Piesset wrote:

 Will Viewnior be the default image viewer in 12.04 ? In 11.04 and 11.10
 it's not in the repos...


There are some issues with the modified included graphics library that
Viewnior uses, and Debian/Ubuntu packaging policy.  Its author does not
want it included linking to the system version of library...

So what we originally thought was a technical issue (get it packaged and
into Debian, sync to Ubuntu) has turned into a much more complicated
packaging/policy/desires-of-authors issue.  I do not know if this will
all get resolved well in time for 12.04.

Jonathan


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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Lubuntu 12.04 Alpha 1 Testing

2011-12-23 Thread Jonathan Marsden
On 12/23/2011 06:52 AM, amjjawad HOOHAA wrote:

 I have Lubuntu 12.04 installed and it's up and running. I have done all the
 updates and upgrades (
 http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=11559293postcount=23) and now, I
 want to use zsync that I already installed. *From my understanding to all
 this, I just need to do this*:


 zsync 
 http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/lubuntu/daily-live/20111222/precise-desktop-i386.iso.zsync


You can't zsync already installed packages, you zsync an ISO image file.
 This updates it to a newer verson of that ISO image, without
re-downloading the parts that have not changed.

zsync is used for updating an ISO image file, one you can then burn to
CD, etc.  It is *not* a way to update an installed system.

 ... zsync will NOT update the installed system but will update the
 previously downloaded iso so that you'll get the LATEST Daily Image
 and then you just need to burn a CD and Install all over again,
 right?


Right.  Remember, this is for testing, which includes testing of
installation.

 Now, another doubt: What's the point from all the above if I do:
 
 sudo apt-get upgrade


This first one should be update not upgrade, I think.

 sudo apt-get dist-upgrade


That updates your existing, already installed, machine.  It does not
test the installer, or the installer slideshow, for example, which may
have been changed between the time you first installed Lubuntu and the
time you do the update.


 Isn't that enough?


No.  They do two *very* different things:

(1) An end user, wanting to keep their machine updated, can do

  sudo apt-get update  sudo apt-get upgrade

to update their already-installed Lubuntu machine.

(2) ISO testers, who will retest installation of Lubuntu from the ISO
image on a variety of machines, and using a variety of different
installation options, need an updated ISO to do that kind of testing
with.  Using zsync can help such testers them obtain an updated ISO
image without wasting Internet bandwidth.

Jonathan

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] About Xscreensaver

2011-12-23 Thread Jonathan Marsden
On 12/23/2011 06:09 PM, ∅ wrote:

 Really? I've never had this problem, VM or not.
 
 Which screensaver are you using? I'm using GLMatrix.


The default one does it for me, at least in virtualbox VMs.  Although I
usually don't notice it for weeks, because I leave only one such VM
running unles I am doing something fairly unusual, and on a quad core
CPU, having just one core wasting its time screensaving a VM doesn't
really make any noticeable difference to normal desktop usage at all --
then much much later, I run something that really taxes the CPU and can
use multiple threads, run top or htop, and there it is :)

Setting the xscreensaver default to blank screen seems like a good
solution, being (hopefully) straightforward to implement, and yet
reducing the unwanted CPU load very substantially.

Jonathan

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] removing Chromium (really removing chromium-browser)

2011-12-22 Thread Jonathan Marsden
Please would everyone note that in the world of Debian and Ubuntu
packages, chromium is a game, and chromium-browser is a browser :)

 On Dec 22, 2011 8:43 AM, Phill Whiteside phi...@ubuntu.com wrote:

 Removing Chromium using the two different commands provides massively
 different results. This was 1st reported on IRC and the pastebin [1]
 of the output is now available. If one of the 'guru's could take a
 look at it, it's way beyond my limited expertise!


 [1] http://paste.ubuntu.com/778561/


It pays to stick with apt-get or aptitude and not mix them.  However,
that doesn't really fully explain this.

At a quick glance, I have a suspicion that the issue could be related to
line 141 of that pastebin page:

  141) ia32-libs recommends ia32-libs-multiarch

Hmmm... ia32libs is *not* a default install on Lubuntu (or Ubuntu!) as
far as I know.  Therefore, it appears that someone has probably been
experimenting with running 32bit-only closed-source proprietary apps on
a 64bit OS installation, and has got themselves (or aptitude, or
something) into a bit of a mess.  ia32-libs is a fairly nastly hack,
IMO, and should only be used by people who thoroughly understand what it
does and how it works (and I don't fully understand that myself!).

I admit that I do use la32-libs, very reluctantly, to run Skype on my
amd64 Ubuntu Lucid install, but that's *not* a recommendation of it.
Multi-arch support in Ubuntu is improving, but I don't think it is
there yet.

To explore this further, can we ask:

 (a) Who or what installed ia32-libs, and for what purpose?

 (b) Was the chromium-browser being removed a 32bit i386
 chromium-browser, or a 64bit amd64 chromium-browser?


 dpkg-query -W -f='${Package} ${Version}\t${Architecture}\n' 
chromium-browser


 should help answer that one.

 (c) Can this issue be duplicated from a fresh Lubuntu install, and if
 so, what are the exact set of steps needed to do so?

 (d) What do the following commands output on the affected system?

 uname -a ; echo $(lsb_release -cdrs)
 aptitude why ia32-libs

  (e) Lastly (this could generate a lot of output!), what is the output
  from:

  aptitude -Wvs remove chromium-browser

Jonathan


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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] How LSC works? (searching for packages)

2011-12-21 Thread Jonathan Marsden
On 12/21/2011 06:39 AM, Yorvyk wrote:

 On Wed, 21 Dec 2011 14:19:04 + Yorvyk yorvik.ubu...@googlemail.com 
 wrote:
 On Wed, 21 Dec 2011 10:49:36 -0300 Jean-Pierre Vidal Piesset 
 jpx...@gmail.com wrote:


 ... the same search parameter
 returns different things... (just try lame in LSC and USC to see it ;) ...


 With the same search parameters they should show the same results

 but, they don't appear to have the same parameters. They appear to
 be searching on different fields.


 The search does seem a bit bizarre.  I've just tried both Lubuntu and
 lubuntu and it finds nothing.


Comparing how LSC does its searches, and how apt-cache search does them,
should help unravel that issue.  As a quick test of searching package
names in Python:

cat aptsearch.py EOF
#!/usr/bin/python
import sys, re, apt_pkg
apt_pkg.init()
cache = apt_pkg.Cache()
for pkg in cache.packages:
if re.search(sys.argv[1], pkg.name, re.IGNORECASE):
print  , pkg.name
EOF
chmod +x aptsearch.py
./aptsearch.py lubuntu # search for packages with lubuntu in their names

is all it takes to demo that basic package name searches in Python work
fine.  I would hope that LSC actually searches on package descriptions
as well as package names, of course, but I'll leave doing that as an
exercise for the reader :)  Personally, I'll stick to using apt-cache
and apt-get, since they work, in all varieties of Debian and Ubuntu...
so why should I learn yet another GUI way to do what those commands
already do :)

Jonathan


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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Unresolved overheat issue blocks development

2011-12-20 Thread Jonathan Marsden
On 12/20/2011 08:58 PM, PCMan wrote:

 I have a long-standing unresolved issue on my Thinkpad R60 laptop.
 My Lubuntu gets overheat and performs shutdown automatically frequently. ...


There is some fairly detailed info on Thinkpad fan control under Linux at

  http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/How_to_control_fan_speed

I don't own a Thinkpad, but this mentions both Ubuntu and Debian, and so
could be worth a look, even though it looks a little old.

Jonathan

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[Lubuntu-desktop] Differentiating between logged in users (was: Re: Me again :) )

2011-12-18 Thread Jonathan Marsden
On 12/17/2011 12:59 PM, amjjawad HOOHAA wrote:

 ... there are 3 different users are using the same PC and they want
 something to display the name of the current logged in user beside a
 feature to switch to another user.


Sounds like all they really need is a way to tell each login from the
others.

A simple solution is to set each users desktop preferences to use a
different desktop wallpaper; which user is logged in will then be pretty
clear from the look of the screen.  For example, if you have three
users, you can set each of them to use one of

  /usr/share/lxde/wallpapers/lxde_blue.jpg
  /usr/share/lxde/wallpapers/lxde_green.jpg
  /usr/share/lxde/wallpapers/lxde_red.jpg

The difference between those is pretty obvious.  Each user will soon
recognize their own colour of wallpaper.

If you want to get fancy, use mtpaint to edit some wallpapers that have
the user's names on them, and then use those custom wallpapers, a
different one for each user :)

[You can set the wallpaper by right-clicking on the desktop, clicking on
Desktop Preferences, and then clicking on the folder icon to the right
of the Wallpaper: field in the Appearance tab of the Desktop
Preferences window. ]

Jonathan

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Lubuntu Users

2011-12-17 Thread Jonathan Marsden
On 12/17/2011 04:19 PM, Jean-Pierre Vidal Piesset wrote:

 2011/12/17 Gabriel Salles gabrielper...@gmail.com
 

 Companies, universities, etc. will have a local repo or cache and
 only download the update once for thousands of machines. Even some
 home users do this if they have few machines.

 
 Off topic, but just to know, can you point me on how to do that?


Use any of the relevant packages for doing that, such as apt-mirror,
apt-proxy or apt-cacher-ng .

There's an ancient tutorial on howtoforge that might still be relevant,
if you need a tutorial (reading the docs that come with the package is
better, IMO!).  http://www.howtoforge.com/local_debian_ubuntu_mirror

Jonathan


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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Lubuntu Users (popularity-contest)

2011-12-17 Thread Jonathan Marsden
On 12/17/2011 04:36 PM, Philip wrote:

 Would it be possible to include something like a voluntary survey
 with a round of updates? That would be better than raw numbers, and
 the users who care enough to fill it out would probably provide the
 best data.


Would this definitely be better than raw numbers?  How do you know
this?  That's a *very* bold statement -- do you have data to back it up?

It could accidentally be a very biased sample; users who care enough
might all be significantly more experienced and techie than users who
do not care enough, for example, and so exhibit rather different usage
patterns.  And now, if we were to trust the survey data, we might
accidentally skew our decisions based on this biased sample, and lose
our less-techie users... not what we want.  Or, maybe, our experienced
users all have lots of work to do and lots of spam email, and will
reflexively reject all survey requests, but newcomers are so
enthusiastic that they will fill them in; in that case you could get the
opposite bias.

It seems to me that you cannot be sure your survey data would be
better unless you have done all kinds of work (perhaps field trials,
and appropriate statistical analysis of the results) to demonstrate
that.  Have you in fact done that work?

As you must be aware, since you will already have researched this field
in some depth before proposing something new, the existing
popularity-contest package is a well established attempt to gather this
kind of data, from all those who enable it, based on what people
install, rather than on what they run.  Debian automatically graphs the
data it provides, all the way back to at least 2004, for example:

  http://qa.debian.org/popcon.php?package=bash

There is Ubuntu data at http://popcon.ubuntu.com too.  I do not know
whether popcon in its current form can distinguish between data from
Lubuntu and data from Ubuntu; I suspect not.

Will whatever new survey you are proposing clearly do better than this?
 Would enhancing popularity-contest and its associated infrastructure so
it *does* distinguish between the various flavours of Ubuntu be as
useful, or more useful, than your proposal?  How do current numbers of
users (as reported by popcon) installing lubuntu-desktop or lxde-common
compare to those installing ubuntu-desktop, for example?

Overall, I recommend using existing tools and data over trying to build
a new survey mechanism from scratch.

Jonathan

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Network Manager

2011-12-14 Thread Jonathan Marsden
On 12/14/2011 04:53 PM, Phill Whiteside wrote:

 I've finally upggraded from 9.10 Ubuntu to 11.10 Lubuntu, the problem
 is that my network monitor icon has vanished from my bar whilst I was
 re-organising things and I do not see it any where on the the list of
 things that should be there?


(1) Probable quick temporary fix:

At a shell prompt, type in

  nm-applet 

(2) Probable more permanent fix:

Edit the panel config, probably a file called panel under
~/.config/lxpanel/Lubuntu/panels/ .  You can try doing that with the GUI
(right-click on the panel, in Panel Preferences dialog click the Panel
Applets tab and add the System Tray if it is missing (I *think*
nm-applet shows up inside the system tray!).

(3) More complicated more techie fix:

If that doesn't help... you're a sysadmin, so you get to do it the
harder way.   I don't know all the boring details, but it is a text
file; worst case, consider creating a new user and logging in as that
user; that user will then have a default lxpanel setup, which is likely
to include nm-applet.  Now you can compare that one with the one being
used by your real user (with diff, or by eye), and make appropriate
changes to your panel config file by hand, and then do

  lxpanelctl restart

to see the effect of your edit :)

(4) Next time, be sure to have good recent backups of both /etc and your
home directory *before* messing with any configuration stuff :)

Jonathan


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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Killing glade and gconf -- are there general guidelines or a blueprint?

2011-11-26 Thread Jonathan Marsden
On 11/26/2011 01:07 AM, Julien Lavergne wrote:

 No, the priority is the glade migration because only Lubuntu specific
 packages are involved.


OK, that helps.  Is there documentation out there somewhere about what
to replace glade with?  Examples, tutorials, whatever?  Is using glade
3.10.x (and so GTK3) sufficient?  Or are we really killing glade?

Also, it looks like the quickly programming environment (that Ubuntu
has been pushing as a way for new programmers to get started) uses glade
-- is that being changed too?  Otherwise, new programmers will continue
to use it to build their small applications... which will use glade!

Thanks,

Jonathan

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Killing glade and gconf -- are there general guidelines or a blueprint?

2011-11-26 Thread Jonathan Marsden
On 11/26/2011 01:38 AM, Michael Rawson wrote:

 I guess it's possible to remove glade and 'hard-code' the interface,
 but it might take a while.


That would be a step backwards in terms of long term maintainability,
though.  I'm assuming there is a better replacement for glade, or an
upgrade for it, not just kill glade and hard code the entire UI.

Jonathan

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] New web site for Lubuntu

2011-11-25 Thread Jonathan Marsden
On 11/25/2011 04:02 AM, Martin Olesen wrote:

 I am showing this to more people than the ones who are registered
 users of the wiki page. If I demand that they begin with a
 registration I will lose half of the responses.


OK, please at least link to the demo site and response page from the
wiki page, so people who know about the wiki page find the other one.
Maybe do the reverse too, so those who read the comments on Google Docs
can easily go read the other comments on the wiki page?

I think real beginners will find it hard to ignore the lack of pretty
graphics and theme, so you might want to mock up something using
Raphael's proposed simple blue Ubuntu theme before exposing this to
large numbers of real newcomers.

  (1) Seven tabs is too many; let's keep it simpler than that.
 

 Fine with me, but that does not help me much. Which tabs do you
 want?


Rafael's first three choices borrowed from the ubuntu.com site (Home,
Download, Support) are nice and simple, and self-explanatory.  Their
purposes are each very clear.  His next two were Community and Wiki,
which may also be appropriate, but seem slightly less obvious for real
newcomers (what exactly will I find under Community, a live chat with
Lubuntu people?  When do I need to use Wiki, and what *is* a wiki?).  I
think things like Modify Lubuntu are potentially a bit too scary for
newcomers to be top level items (you mean I have to hack on it??) and
so should be avoided :)

So maybe just Home, Download, Support, Community.  Then have links to
wiki-based information as needed within the site, and discuss the
concept of a set of online documentation that all in the community can
easily add to and improve, under Community (and, with emphasis on what
it contains, rather than on editing it, under Support)?

I like the idea of differentiating between Trying out Lubuntu and
Installing Lubuntu; these could be sub-pages under Download (so we
encourage people to download it, try it, install it, in that order), and
the Installing one could be linked from under Support too.

Incidentally, have you considered documenting use of a VM for trying out
Lubuntu without removing your old operating system?  More techie than
booting from a LiveCD, but also much closer to experiencing the real
thing.  For users with decent PC hardware, it may be much less scary to
set up Lubuntu in a VM than to repartition their hard drive or remove
Windows!  Once you find yourself needing to ask what if the computer
has four primary partitions already?, you are not meeting the needs of
newcomers any more!  Are you going to explain UEFI booting and
configuration, for those with modern motherboards, too? :)

 (2) Proposed site home page is basically content-less, and so not 
 useful. Not even a button to download the most commonly wanted

 Lubuntu ISO!
 
 Correct, this is an early test. You will see more and more content
 being added over time.


OK, but getting the front page correct is really important.  Deciding
what should be there, and what should be on subsidiary pages, can make
or break a site (cf. your comments on all the videos that used to be on
the front page of the old lubuntu.net!).  So this should be thought
about (and tested) early in the design process.

 (3) Proposed site content (and look/feel/theme) does not connect at
 all to (or address the whole issue of how it relates to) existing
 online Lubuntu documentation at wiki.ubuntu.com and help.ubuntu.com


 As I wrote, please give suggestions regarding text, layout and
 navigation. Pictures, colours and the like come at a later time.

Never mind how it looks, for now.  Your proposed pages include things
like hardware requirements, which are already documented elsewhere; are
you proposing that the new site will ignore the wiki and so we end up
having to maintain that information in two different ways on two
separate pages?  If not, how does the new site blend into the existing
wiki pages?  Once browsing within the wiki, how does a user get back
to the lubuntu.net site?

For theme and navigation, I like Rafael's make it look like a simpler
blue Ubuntu site concept, but the graphical look is less important to
me than ability to easily find information, and to know that information
is likely to be correct and up to date.  For that, the basic principle
of how and when the lubuntu.net site links to the existing wiki pages,
and vice versa, needs to be clearly established, and then consistently
implemented.

  (4) In English, we say operating system not operative system.

 There are a couple of other places where the English needs tidying up.


 Sure, we need a native Brit to proof-read. I'll correct this one when
 I get home. Did you find any more of these?


I am a native Brit (born in England, although now living in
California); my father is a (now retired) schoolteacher with an M.A. in
English from Cambridge University... so he made sure my English was
pretty good :)  I'm not volunteering as an official site proofreader,

[Lubuntu-desktop] Killing glade and gconf -- are there general guidelines or a blueprint?

2011-11-25 Thread Jonathan Marsden
For Precise, we have several work items (15, according to
https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/other-lubuntu-p-optimizations
) that are related to killing gconf and glade.

I'd like to look at what this takes and why we are doing it; was there a
general Ubuntu-wide blueprint defining why they are being
killed/deprecated, and what the desired/expected way to replace them is?

I am guessing that if I had been at UDS I would know the answer... :)

Jonathan

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Killing glade and gconf -- are there general guidelines or a blueprint?

2011-11-25 Thread Jonathan Marsden
On 11/25/2011 10:02 PM, Andrew Woodhead wrote:

 gnome3 uses dconf not gconf, so as gnome2 is dying or dead, we all
 must move on and use what is supported upstream.


That makes sense, thanks.  Actually it looks like we are supposed to
migrate from gconf to GSettings, which is a higher level GNOME API that
has dconf as its default back end under Unix-like OSes.

So far, I found https://live.gnome.org/GnomeGoals/GSettingsMigration and
http://developer.gnome.org/gio/stable/ch28.html as good sources of info
about this, and a worked example at
http://git.gnome.org/browse/gnome-utils/log/?h=gsettings-tutorial .

This does raise another question: for packages that are not
Lubuntu-specific, such as gksu, is the plan for us (few) Lubuntu devs to
do the migration work, or just to wait for someone else to do it for us?

Jonathan

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] How To Access PCs on Local Network

2011-11-24 Thread Jonathan Marsden
On 11/22/2011 01:17 AM, Swapnil Bhartiya wrote:

 

 In pcmanfm, click on Go -  Network Drives, and browse to the
 desired machine and share.


 Under Go  Network I only see Windows Network (I don't have any
 windows machines, all are either Ubuntu or openSUSE) , clicking on it
 does nothing.


This means that your other machine (the OS it is running, Linux,
Windows, OS X, FreeBSD, etc. is not directly relevant) is not running an
SMB-based file sharing service on its LAN interface.

My earlier reply to you started out with:

 Assuming the other PCs are sharing files using the SMB protocol

But you apparently ignored that, and failed to quote it in your reply.
Had you initially asked how to access files on Linux machines on the
local network that were only accessible over SSH, you might have
received more appropriate responses for your (unusual) situation.

gvfs, which is used by both Nautilus and pcmanfm, can handle a variety
of file sharing protocols; knowing which one is appropriate to connect
to your fileserver(s) is important.  Feel free to document all the
protocols gvfs handles, if you think that would benefit Lubuntu users.
Please don't just document the one protocol you happen to be using :)

To receive a good answer, you need to ask a good (clearly written) question.

Jonathan

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] How To Access PCs on Local Network

2011-11-24 Thread Jonathan Marsden
On 11/24/2011 12:47 PM, ∅ wrote:

 On 11/24/2011 12:15 PM, Jonathan Marsden wrote:


 Feel free to document all the protocols gvfs handles, if you think
 that would benefit Lubuntu users. Please don't just document the
 one protocol you happen to be using :)


 Actually I have a question about this. Does this mean, then, that
 gvfs can do sshfs?


Yes, it can, as an intentional side-effect of using GVFS.

 If so, wow. DIdn't know that! I've been doing it manually for
 forever.


I tend to do many network-related tasks the hard way too :)

gvfs can plug in new file access protocols; the gvfs-backends package
provides quite a few, as a starting point.  I don't know of a quick and
easy way to ask it which schemas do you support (there is apparently a
documented GVFS API function for this ( const gchar * const *
g_vfs_get_supported_uri_schemes(GVfs *vfs); ), but I'm not sure if this
is global, or only queries one existing pre-specified VFS).  I have not
found a little utility that lists them -- there probably is one, I just
have not found it yet!).

The approach Swapnil is working with is with the ssh:// schema, which
uses sftp, and (because of the way GVFS works) therefore provides a FUSE
filesystem under ~/.gvfs/ -- which is effectively sshfs.

To see this in action, run pcmanfm, type in

  ssh://you@192.168.0.2

give it the password for you on the ssh server at 192.168.0.2, and then
press F4.  You will find yourself in a shell in the remote sftp filesystem.

Using sftp like this works nicely for file management tasks like
copying, renaming, and deleting files, but is not efficient for normal
POSIX application file access (example: opening a file, doing random
access seeks and reads within it, modifying a few bytes in the middle of
the file, closing the file).  So, as I see it, using sftp works well for
the kinds of operations that a file manager (like pcmanfm) usually needs
to do, but not so well for actually running applications that access and
modify files on the remote file server.  For that, SMB or NFS would
probably be preferable. (I also have no idea how or whether sftp/sshfs
deal with file locking).

I have not tried them all with pcmanfm, but gvfs can use other schemas
such as http://, ftp://, dav://, obex:// (for doing fun things like
accessing files on your cellphone over bluetooth), gphoto2:// (access to
connected digital cameras), and cdda:// (access to audio CDs)... I do
not yet know how many of those work by default in Lubuntu and pcmanfm
via gvfs-backends.  Based on gvfs-backends documentation, I *think* it
should handle all of afc, archive, cdda, dav, dnssd, ftp, gphoto2, http,
network, obexftp, sftp, smb and smb-browse, at minimum.

In my very limited testing, pcmanfm also appears to support menu:// and
computer:// .

If Swapnil is writing a detailed comparison of Nautilus and pcmanfm,
then when comparing their capabilities, I would think that document will
include specifics of which schemas each file manager can handle, and
hopefully also how well each file manager handles each one.  (Maybe,
since both use GVFS, they both support exactly the same set of schemas,
I simply don't know).  That comparison should be a good article to read,
once it is completed, so I look forward to that.  It could lead to some
possible future enhancements for pcmanfm.

A way to have pcmanfm display all the available schemas that it knows
how to use could be useful.  Maybe in the network:/// screen it could
show an icon for each one?  But part of the issue there is that not all
protocols include a browse mechanism to locate all local servers using a
given protocol, so displaying a list of servers when you click on a
particular protocol may not be practical (you'd have to port scan your
network to generate a list, which is obviously not a good idea!).

At minimum, pcmanfm could include a Help database or User Guide that
includes some basic information on each schema and what it is for, and
examples of how to use it.  Right now in pcmanfm, the only thing under
Help is About, which is... not really all that helpful :)

Jonathan

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] New web site for Lubuntu

2011-11-24 Thread Jonathan Marsden
On 11/24/2011 04:26 PM, Martin Olesen wrote:

 The site is at https://sites.google.com/site/lubuntunet/


Thanks for putting up a prototype site.

 and comments can be written at
 https://docs.google.com/document/d/1_mZ5dVbuY5Qk3E7MbqxEkGL1fphAwiSKRqzXkAzyqmg/edit


I thought as a team we had agreed to use the wiki page at

  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Lubuntu/Marketing/Website_Plan

for brainstorming about a proposed new lubuntu.net site.  This was
discussed in the recent Lubuntu Dev Meeting, see the log starting at

  http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/11/23/%23ubuntu-meeting.html#t20:04

Several of us have already contributed ideas to that page.  Why are we
now being asked to put comments at some other place, using Google Docs
rather that the wiki which Lubuntu has been using for online
documentation for some years now?  It seems a bit inefficient.  It is
important that we work as a team, not in isolation.

My initial thoughts on the proposed site are:

 (1) Seven tabs is too many; let's keep it simpler than that.

 (2) Proposed site home page is basically content-less, and so not
useful.  Not even a button to download the most commonly wanted Lubuntu ISO!

 (3) Proposed site content (and look/feel/theme) does not connect at all
to (or address the whole issue of how it relates to) existing online
Lubuntu documentation at wiki.ubuntu.com and help.ubuntu.com .  I think
that treating the site as 100% independent from these existing Lubuntu
community resources, more or less ignoring them, is a significant part
of what got the old lubuntu.net into disrepair -- let's not make the
same mistake twice.

 (4) In English, we say operating system not operative system.
There are a couple of other places where the English needs tidying up.

Once I know where we really want comments and ideas for the proposed
new lubuntu.net site, I'll add these to it.

Jonathan


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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] How To Access PCs on Local Network

2011-11-21 Thread Jonathan Marsden
On 11/21/2011 12:11 PM, Swapnil Bhartiya wrote:

 Under Ubuntu's Nautilus its very easy to connect to other PCs, just
 use the Connect to Server option, enter the IP of the machine, user
 name and password and you can access the drives on that PC. How do
 you do that under Lubuntu?


Assuming the other PCs are sharing files using the SMB protocol, in
Lubuntu, by default you use pcmanfm, not Nautilus, as a file browser.

In pcmanfm, click on Go - Network Drives, and browse to the desired
machine and share.  As others have already noted, there are shortcuts
involving typing in URLs with unusual schemas such as smb: or network:
you can use, but that is not necessary, you can stay fully point and
click and access files shared on other machines.

If you are reviewing pcmanfm, or comparing it to Nautilus, please be
sure to take the time to explore all of its menus :)

Jonathan

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Fw: Dropping i386 non-PAE as a supported kernel flavour in Precise Pangolin

2011-11-20 Thread Jonathan Marsden
On 11/20/2011 07:29 AM, Chow Loong Jin wrote:

 On 20/11/2011 19:31, Yorvyk wrote:


 If a CPU can't support PAE it can't support more than 4GiB of RAM,
 so the PAE part of the kernel shoudn't come into play.

 

 From what I understand, PAE has a different set of paging structures
 compared to non-PAE. Does the kernel know to fall back onto non-PAE
 mode if it cannot enable PAE on a CPU?


Which way to do things is basically a compile time option for the
kernel, as I understand it.  So, if a PAE kernel is used, it can *only*
be run on processors that support the additional PAE instructions.  Even
if a machine only has 128MB RAM, it you try to run a PAE kernel on it,
and the CPU lacks the PAE instruction, it is not going to run.

The real question is: are there really any CPUs in general purpose
desktops or laptops, in any significant quantity at all, that Ubuntu
11.10 i386 kernels work on, which PAE kernels do not work on?

Other than the early 400MHz Pentium-M, which are pretty rare, I don't
think anyone has seen such a CPU yet.  Via C3 and AMD Geode LX already
cannot run current Ubuntu 11.10 default kernels anyway.

Jonathan


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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Ubuntu Site

2011-11-18 Thread Jonathan Marsden
Tim,

On Friday, November 18, 2011 8:26 AM, Tim Bernhard
ohiom...@gmail.com wrote:

 I'm wondering how people find out about Ubuntu derivatives?  When I
 look at the Ubuntu site  I don't see anything about other Ubuntu based
 distros.

It is there.  Three mouse clicks from http://www.ubuntu.com :

  Projects - About Ubuntu - Derivatives

I suspect that in practice, more people learn about them by asking
others who use them.  Word of mouth is *still* a good way to publicize
something.  So, if you like Lubuntu, tell your friends about it :)

Jonathan
-- 
  Jonathan Marsden
  jmars...@fastmail.fm


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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Fw: Dropping i386 non-PAE as a supported kernel flavour in Precise Pangolin

2011-11-18 Thread Jonathan Marsden
On Friday, November 18, 2011 7:43 PM, Matthew Byers
faintstlsa...@gmail.com wrote:

 Yes it will affect Pentium II.

Evidence, please?  That is not what the original email said at all.  It
is also not what all the info I have on which CPUs can do PAE says.

As far as I know, Pentium Pro and Pentium II CPUs all can do PAE, except
for some 400MHz Pentium M mobile CPUs.

As I understand the email, and based on by fading memory of which CPUs
do PAE, requiring PAE will only exclude Pentium I, a few 400MHz Pentium
M, really old AMD chips, and the less known alternatives such as the
Geode and the VIA C3.

All normal Pentium II processors should handle PAE just fine.  It looks
like wikipedia agrees with this (not that it is always 100% accurate,
but still, it's an easy to find online source).

Do you have info (or real world experience) that indicates otherwise?

*If* this proposed change makes it impractical to run on a Pentium II,
we need to stand up and be counted.  If (as I suspect) it only prevents
use on Pentium I, really old AMD, VIA C3 and Geode, then ... that's a
much smaller population of still-working computers, and I suggest we
let it slide.

Jonathan
-- 
  Jonathan Marsden
  jmars...@fastmail.fm


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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Fw: Dropping i386 non-PAE as a supported kernel flavour in Precise Pangolin

2011-11-18 Thread Jonathan Marsden
On 11/18/2011 04:45 PM, Phill Whiteside wrote:

 So there is no need to support the dropping of chip sets at 10.04,
 and none of at the next release?


The changes in 10.10 that cause it to be unusable on some CPUs are
already made.  I am unclear which exact CPU models can run 10.10 and
11.04 and 11.10 default Ubuntu kernels, but which lack PAE.

I think that there are *very* few such CPUs out there in working general
purpose desktop or laptop computers (not embedded stuff like Soekris and
WRAP boards in routers etc.)... how many such machines do you own?  How
many people can you name who use such CPUs to run Lubuntu today, as
their primary PC to do useful computing, not just for testing?

 If  Lubuntu cannot support old hardware, as julien has argued 
 pleaded about * What is the point of Lubuntu? *


The more nuanced question is how old, and which old hardware, it is
important for Lubuntu to continue to support.  The choice is not between
all old hardware and no old hardware at all.  So the melodrama does
not really help here.

We already told the community we would support Lubuntu 10.04 as an LTS,
so we should keep that commitment (though I don't think we are doing a
very good job of it, to be honest!).  But we made a commitment, so we
should do what we can to honour it.  That is not in question here.

The current issue then becomes a (much narrower, to my mind) one:

  Is it worth fighting the proposed change requiring PAE capability
  in default Ubuntu i386 kernels, and do we have the resources to do so?

Based on my current understanding of which CPUs can run Oneiric default
kernels, but cannot support PAE, I don't think it is worth fighting this
one.  I think there are far more working usable PII and PIII machines
with 128MB or 256MB of RAM that Lubuntu can be useful on, and that are
worth our time and attention, than there are general purpose machines
with Via C3 or Geode LX processors in that people want to run Lubuntu on.

That's just my opinion.  Asking me to please think is unlikely to
change it :)  If you have more specific information about which exact
CPUs are affected, and how many Lubuntu users own and use such machines,
please share it.  That information *might* change it.

Jonathan

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Fw: Dropping i386 non-PAE as a supported kernel flavour in Precise Pangolin

2011-11-18 Thread Jonathan Marsden
On 11/18/2011 05:43 PM, Jared Norris wrote:

 So to this end, my question is, is there a simple command people can
 run to see if their CPU can run PAE kernels? I would have thought if
 cat /proc/cpuinfo | grep pae would not give any output if the CPUs
 weren't capable? I'm not an expert so just wanting to confirm.


That works, but is inelegant.  You win a UUOC award, see
http://partmaps.org/era/unix/award.html grin!

My suggested equivalent (but shorter, clearer and more efficient)
command would be

  grep pae /proc/cpuinfo

Jonathan

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Fw: Dropping i386 non-PAE as a supported kernel flavour in Precise Pangolin

2011-11-18 Thread Jonathan Marsden
On 11/18/2011 11:50 AM, Jean-Pierre Vidal Piesset wrote:

 Last year they dropped support for a lot of machines, now they will
 drop for a lot more?




A lot?  How did you determine this, and can you let us know the
numeric upper and lower bounds of a lot in the second phrase of this
description? :)

Jonathan

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Weekly meetings - Finding the right time

2011-11-15 Thread Jonathan Marsden
On 11/15/2011 08:17 PM, Julien Lavergne wrote:

 Ok, so I planned the meetings until next year.


 The current Agenda will be available on
 https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Lubuntu/IRC%20Meetings/Agenda. 


20:00 UTC Wednesday is 12:00 Pacific time Wednesday, so that's tricky
for me, I am likely to be at work.  Some days I might be able to call
that my lunch break, and join; other days I'll probably be in the middle
of working with a client ... but I won't know which it will be until the
time itself.  I'll do my best.

Jonathan

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[Lubuntu-desktop] Viewnior packaging, and bug #889414

2011-11-13 Thread Jonathan Marsden
Julien,

On 11/13/2011 05:03 AM, Julien Lavergne wrote:

 Do you contact the person who owns the ITP of Viewnior ? Maybe he is
 still working on it ?


I have now ... I wanted to make sure it wasn't going to be really hard
to package, before I started going public :)

 See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WorkItemsHowto


Great, thanks.  It's easy, when you know how!

 On bugs, I seem to have come up with a usable fix for bug #889414 .
 A change to the rc.xml in lubuntu-default-settings.  Do I have
 commit rights to the git or bzr tree for that, or should I propose
 a merge to a branch, or just do it the traditional way and upload a
 debdiff?


 Thanks, you can push the change directly to the LP branch, I'll check
 it and upload it when I will find time to test it. There is probably

 more changes to do, to upgrade configuration file to openbox 3.5 format :(


OK, will do.  Do we need a work item related to the openbox 3.4 - 3.5
transition, so we don't forget?

Jonathan


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[Lubuntu-desktop] [12.04] Tracking progress (was: Re: [Lubuntu 12.04] My Suggestions)

2011-11-12 Thread Jonathan Marsden
On 11/12/2011 12:38 PM, amjjawad HOOHAA wrote:

 *My suggestions*:

 http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=11447159postcount=94
 
 *Original thread*: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1870442
 
 In case I want to add more, shall I update my post or send them through
 this email?


This mailing list is more likely to be seen and responded to by Lubuntu
developers than forum threads, IMO.

 If there is any kind of updates about 12.04, please let me know. Thanks!


Please don't make extra work for our scarce and overworked developers :)

Instead, if you are interested in tracking progress towards Lubuntu
12.04, please login to the wiki and read the wiki page at

  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Lubuntu/Developers/P-Plan

then click the Subscribe button so you are emailed about all changes
to that page.

Then, subscribe to each of the Lubuntu 12.04 blueprints on Launchpad, so
you will automatically get emails as they are updated.

  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/other-lubuntu-p-users-experience


is one such blueprint, I can't seem to find the others right now, I
think that there should (theoretically) be one each for the clean
house and organization parts of the plan too.  Maybe Julien can
provide pointers to those for us.

Thanks,

Jonathan


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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] [12.04] Tracking progress

2011-11-12 Thread Jonathan Marsden
On 11/12/2011 04:03 PM, Lance wrote:

 Please don't make extra work for our scarce and overworked developers :)

 I've honestly wondered about that for some time now. While I'm no
 dev by any stretch of the imagination I have been involved in Ubuntu
  iso-testing for well over 3 years, and recently the number of 
 suggestions regarding Lubuntu here at the mailing list have been 
 almost overwhelming.


Most of them have to be either ignored, or responded to with a short
response saying why they don't really make sense for this cycle, or
can't be done for lack of resources, or whatever.

 How much time has this taken away from fixing actual bugs or
 implementing meaningful change?


I don't know if anyone is measuring this.  Personally, I've been
deliberately staying off IRC lately, to try to focus on other things and
operate on my own schedule and my own priorities, rather than helping
others out when they need it.  That's a personal (and perhaps somewhat
selfish) response to increased work responsibilities, and to some health
scares that are lead me to try to take it easy and relax a bit more
outside of my work :)

Actually, though, my earlier statement about don't make extra work was
directed more at the please keep me updated request, than at the
actual suggestions themselves.  We can't afford to ignore our end users,
or ignore really good ideas from people who don't happen to be
developers.  There's a balance that has to be found in this.

I think Julien's idea of (re-)creating teams, including a Comm Team,
which as I see it would help in handling both internal
(within-Lubuntu-community) and external communication (wikis, web, press
releases, etc) could help both maintain a sense that Lubuntu cares about
its users, and avoid asking too much of its (very few) developers.  As
currently envisaged, there would be four teams:

 * Dev Team (Packaging, Coding, Breaking)
 * Support Team (IRC, Documentation, Testing)
 * Comm Team (Communication, Blogs, Artworks, Events)
 * Translation team (Translations)

There is, to me, a somewhat unclear distinction between some forms of
support (IRC and online documentation) and some forms of communication,
which I think we may need to figure out (unless it is clearer to others
than it is to me).  I'm not sure whether helping out web forum users
would fall under Support or Communication (or both?).  But overall I
like this approach.

Jonathan

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] [Lubuntu 12.04] My Suggestions

2011-11-12 Thread Jonathan Marsden
Julien,

On 11/12/2011 09:15 PM, Julien Lavergne wrote:

 Just a quick note, you can now follow progress of Lubuntu development
 on status.ubuntu.com.

Oh, nice :)  That's a lot prettier than the wiki page and blueprint text.

I've packaged Viewnior 1.1, using its original tarball (there is a
package done by its author, but it was done as a native package with
sources, changes and /debian all in one special tarball... confused
me!).  Once I test it a bit more, I'll contact the author and let him
know, and see if I can find a friendly DD to sponsor an upload into
Debian for us.  We need to do the Debian first thing with new packages
like this, right?

How do I tell LP (and status.launchpad.net) that I am working on an
item, such as this one?  Can I assign myself work items somehow?

On bugs, I seem to have come up with a usable fix for bug #889414 .  A
change to the rc.xml in lubuntu-default-settings.  Do I have commit
rights to the git or bzr tree for that, or should I propose a merge to a
branch, or just do it the traditional way and upload a debdiff?

One more questions: the blueprint lubuntu-p-work-items says it is in
Status: not started, but the status.launchpad.net screens show it is
17% completed.  That does not seem to match up :)

Thanks, and looking forward to weekly Lubuntu team meetings (I think
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Lubuntu/IRC%20Meetings needs an update!),

Jonathan

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] [12.04] Firefox instead of Chromium?

2011-11-06 Thread Jonathan Marsden
On 11/05/2011 05:51 PM, Julien Lavergne wrote:

 So far, I don't see advantages to switch to Firefox. Of course, if
 the benchmarks show a real difference, I may reconsider my opinion.


Tom's Hardware regularly benchmarks browsers, but sadly only under
Windows and OS X.  The relevant page (Memory Efficiency) for a recent
test is at:

  http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/firefox-7-web-browser,3037-14.html

If (and this is a big IF) these results are similar to those in Lubuntu
on low-RAM machines, it might indeed be time to rethink use of Chromium.

Does anyone on the list have the experience, willingness and time to run
some documented and repeatable benchmarks of Chromium and FF7 under
Lubuntu in low RAM machines for us?

Jonathan

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[Lubuntu-desktop] DNS troubleshooting basics (was: www.lxde.org is down!)

2011-10-29 Thread Jonathan Marsden
On 10/25/2011 03:36 PM, Ali Linx wrote:

 Network Error (dns_server_failure)
 
   Your request could not be processed because an error occurred contacting
 the DNS server.  ...


Here is how to troubleshoot this kind of issue:

(1) Use dig +nssearch to find out the nameservers for the domain:

  dig lxde.org +nssearch

This should return information on the reachability of each registered
nameserver for the domain, and the DNS serial number of the information
it contains.  Unfortunately, for lxde.org, I get currently connection
timed out; no servers could be reached, which indicates a significant
problem.  To see what kind of information you get when things are
working correctly, try

  dig lubuntu.net +nssearch

(1B) Since that lookup for lxde.org totally failed (!), use whois to
determine what the listed nameservers for the domain are, instead:

  whois lxde.org

This returns a bunch of information, including:

  Name Server:LINUX3.CC.NTU.EDU.TW
  Name Server:NS1.XINH.ORG
  Name Server:NS2.XINH.ORG
  Name Server:DNS.LXDE.ORG

So, now we know the four authoritative nameservers for lxde.org,
according to whois. (Note: when changes are being made, whois
information can be up to 24 hours behind reality; if nameserver
information from dig +nssearch and whois is different, info from dig is
much more likely to be correct).

(2) Check each of the authoritative nameservers in turn, to see if they
are working, and whether they return the correct (expected) result for
the site you are trying to access:

  dig @linux3.cc.ntu.edu.tw www.lxde.org.

That gets me a SERVFAIL response and no A record.  Strike one!

  dig @ns1.xinh.org www.lxde.org.

That gets me a connection timed out; no servers could be reached.
Strike two!

  dig @ns2.xinh.org www.lxde.org.

That also gets me a connection timed out; no servers could be reached.
 Strike three!

  dig @dns.lxde.org  www.lxde.org.

This gets me a dig: couldn't get address for 'dns.lxde.org': not found.

None of the specified authoritative DNS servers for the lxde.org zone
are working.  In case it is not obvious: this is really bad and needs
fixing.

(3) Fortunately, some cached DNS information does still exist out there,
on other public DNS servers, for example

  dig @8.8.8.8 www.lxde.org.

returns an CNAME and A record:

 www.lxde.org.  47028   IN  CNAME   start.lxde.org.
 start.lxde.org.47028   IN  A   210.240.39.201

This info looks like it will expire in 47028 seconds, which is about 13
hours... unless the Google DNS server (8.8.8.8) has better connectivity
to the official DNS servers for lxde.org than I have.

BOTTOM LINE:

At least for now, anyone using Google's public DNS servers will still be
able to access www.lxde.org.  Anyone using their own caching DNS server
that does not yet have lxde.org information cached in it, or using their
ISPs DNS server that does not yet have lxde.org information cached in
it, will *not* be able to look up the IP address for www.lxde.org and so
will be unable to browse to that site.

POSSIBLE FIXES:

If it would be useful, I would be happy to run DNS for lxde.org on one
or two small DNS servers under my control, at no cost.  They run DNS for
only a couple of hundred domains or so, and so far are a lot more
reliable than the current lxde.org DNS servers seem to be :)  Currently
they each run a different version of BSD, and are completely independent
in terms of power and network connectivity (they are located on opposite
coasts of the USA).

I vaguely remember offering this once before, and there was some reason
why it didn't make sense to do it...?

Jonathan

PS.  Just for fun: note that even the mighty Google can't work around
completely broken or missing information:

  dig @8.8.8.8 dns.lxde.org

returns a SERVFAIL, and does not return an A record.  Looking up
start.lxde.org in the same way fails similarly.

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] [Lxde-list] www.lxde.org is down!

2011-10-29 Thread Jonathan Marsden
On 10/28/2011 11:41 PM, Yao Wei (魏銘廷) wrote:

 Please help me check out the issue (Maybe the issue is in the proxy
 server I can't touch: I got a proxy error). I tried to restart the
 web server but it won't work.


I suspect this is because your machine can no longer resolve names such
as lxde.org and www.lxde.org using DNS.  See my earlier post to the
lubuntu-desktop list DNS Troubleshooting Basics.  It seems from that
troubleshooting that DNS for lxde.org was broken, on all four of its
authoritative nameservers.

In a shell on the web server machine itself, what does

  dig www.lxde.org

output?  Also what does

  cat /etc/resolv.conf

output?  Do you have sufficient priviledges on the web server host to
edit the file /etc/resolv.conf if necessary?

I can set up a hackish-but-mostly-working DNS server for lxde.org if
necessary and helpful, right away.  As a test, what does

  dig @codns.computeroptions.net www.lxde.org

output?

[Looks like maybe you or someone fixed dns.lxde.org while I was typing
this email?]

Jonathan


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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Presentation software for Lubuntu

2011-09-16 Thread Jonathan Marsden
On 09/15/2011 05:00 PM, Arief Rachman wrote:

 I need some help. Is there any lightweight software like power point
 in Lubuntu?! Because the main reason why I use netbook is its
 portability to make presentation. But since there's no lightweight
 program to make a presentation, I think I buy netbook become useless.




Most people would not consider PowerPoint to be lightweight!  So
lightweight software like PowerPoint ... is hard to find.

The OpenOffice.org equivalent of PowerPoint is Impress, in the Ubuntu
pacakge called openoffice.org-impress -- but it is not very lightweight.

http://www.shallowsky.com/linux/LinuxPresentations.html is an old
summary of Linux/Unix/web-based presentation approaches.  Old, but it
may still be useful.

Some of these approaches need more learning time for the presenter than
PowerPoint does... but several really are lightweight.

If you already know and like HTML, then S5 is a decent standards based
presentation system: http://meyerweb.com/eric/tools/s5/ (but it is not
all that similar to PowerPoint!).  I have used it myself.

Jonathan

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] R: Asking: How to read 'chm' and 'pdb'

2011-09-11 Thread Jonathan Marsden
 Da: br41...@gmail.com mailto:br41...@gmail.com
 Data: 11/09/2011 18.17
 Ogg: [Lubuntu-desktop] Asking: How to read 'chm' and 'pdb'

 I'm a newbie and I really love my new lubuntu. But I have some
 problems here. I can't open my 'chm' and 'pdb' files. Is there any
 I can do? ...


Yes, these files are probably readable in Lubuntu.  There are things you
can do to help us find out exactly what they are.  Then, we can help you
to install and try out some programs that will work with them.

On 09/11/2011 10:18 AM, Phill Whiteside wrote:

 pdb seems to be the file extension used by PDA's.. ...


The .pdb extension is also used by some versions of Microsoft Visual
C/C++ as a Program Database.  In general, across multiple platfrorms,
an extension .xyz does not uniquely identify a file type, even in
Windows it may not uniquely identify a filetype.

Fortunately (!), this is Linux, not Windows.  In Linux, we do not need
to guess what is in a file based on its file extension.  Instead, we can
find out what kind of file it is, based on its contents.  The simple
little utility for doing this is called

  file

So, in LXTerminal, please do

  cd /wherever/the/files/are  # use the real path for your files!
  file *.chm *.pdb

and tell us exactly what the file command outputs.

That output will indicate clearly and specifically what the files really
are.  We will know whether a .pdb file is a PalmOS database, or an
MSVC C/C++ program database, or something else entirely.

Then, once we know what the files are, we can look at what Linux
applications will read and write such files.  Clear, simple, step by
step, logical.  No guessing needed.

If we *want* to guess (for fun?): most likely, the .chm files will be
something like MS Windows HtmlHelp Data, and the .pdb files *may* be
something like DB PalmOS document, or any one of about 22 other PalmOS
file types, or they really may be MSVC program database files.

To read MS Windows HtmlHelp Data (.chm) files, you can use one of many
CHM viewer or converter programs in Linux.  In Lubuntu, I would start with

  sudo apt-get install xchm

for an X-based CHm file viewer, or

  sudo apt-get install chmsee

for a GTK-based viewer, and if you want to convert these files to HTML, try

  sudo apt-get install archmage

Working with PalmOS Document files may be a little trickier, depending
on exactly what kind of PalmOS file they are.  One possibility is an
ebook reader that can read many interesting PDA and ebook files,
fbreader, so

  sudo apt-get install fbreader

might be worth a try.

But again, these are just *guesses* -- we need the output from that file
command, to be able to help with any certainty at all about what these
files truly are.

Jonathan

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Dentist visit

2011-09-07 Thread Jonathan Marsden
On 09/07/2011 04:36 PM, Phill Whiteside wrote:

 I'm am planning to see my dentist (and be told off for the length of
 time since last visit).


Me too... I have a toothache!  I see my dentist tomorrow... but her
offices are close to my work, near Walmart... travel time is not a
problem :)  She and most of her staff are Filipinas, and they are always
amused that this white guy can understand their Tagalog :)  Meanwhile, I
am using the pills left over from last time I had a toothache... two
years ago!  Without them I can't get my mind to focus on anything except
IT HURTS!

 @ Julien, I have not booked for certain yet. If I hear no squeals off
 people I'll get it booked in the next 7 days


Go for it.  The Lubuntu world can survive without you for a couple of
weeks, I am sure of it :)  You can always claim you are field testing
Lubuntu's Turkish localization!

 @ mohi and @ daniel You two lads need to agree on the transfer of DE
 over for the time I am away whilst we sort him out a permanent home.


If we need a server to run DE from... I have access to some servers.  If
Mohi and Daniel have it covered, great, but if not, talk to me.

Jonathan

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[Lubuntu-desktop] Testing, and md5sums that vary???

2011-09-03 Thread Jonathan Marsden
On https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Lubuntu/Testing we have a chart that now says
our md5sums for some ISOs vary.

Um.  The whole point is that they don't :)  For a given ISO image, the
md5sum *must* be the same, or you don't have the same image!

I think maybe someone got lazy and didn't want to add entries for 4 ISOs
(LiveCD i386, LiveCD amd64, AlternateCD i386 abd AlternateCD amd64)?  Is
that what varies means -- there are four images, each with their own
(non-varying!) md5sum?

Basically, I don't think saying our md5sums vary is helpful... can we
fix this please?

Jonathan

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Lubuntu iso-testing (and PowerPC)

2011-08-29 Thread Jonathan Marsden
On 08/29/2011 01:02 PM, Phill Whiteside wrote:

 @Jonathan, as I am still new to VM's, can the system I have test out
 the mac ones?


In a word, no.  You would need a way to emulate a PowerPC Mac; that's
not something Virtualbox does.

To do that, you would need something more like PearPC from
http://pearpc.sourceforge.net/

I have never tried it... interesting idea if you have the time and
inclination to investigate it!  For some classes of bugs, I'd be a bit
worried about determining whether a bug report was a bug in the
emulator, or a bug in the Lubuntu PowerPC image -- but may be worth a try.

BTW, for a way to sort of go in the other direction (PowerPC hardware or
a very fast monder Intel-based PC, Linux OS, but you want to run old
classic MacOS apps) you can use SheepSaver http://sheepshaver.cebix.net/
-- this is currently far outside Lubuntu's world, but if we get a bunch
of people using Lubuntu on PowerPC who are converting from MacOS, and
want to run a few of their favourite old apps, it might be handy :)

Jonathan

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] more ISOs (and image size)

2011-08-04 Thread Jonathan Marsden
On 08/04/2011 04:00 PM, 神癒礁湖 (Rafael Laguna) wrote:

 Notice they're not oversized. Are these images uploaded by any of you?


No, they are generated by the Canonical build system, automatically.
Normal humans do not have upload rights to cdimage.ubuntu.com :)

Incidentally, I think you should check their sizes more carefully.  At
762MB (799322112 bytes) for the i386 desktop image, I'd say they *are*
still oversized, just not quite so oversized as before.  The usual size
limit for CD-sized ISO9660 images is 700MB.

Did you really manage to successfully burn a 762MB ISO image to a
normal-sized CD-R blank disk?

Jonathan


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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Second Test Lubuntu Lucid 10.04.3 ISO image available

2011-08-01 Thread Jonathan Marsden
On 08/01/2011 04:11 AM, Lance wrote:

 Just downloaded it, the md5sum I get is:
 
 3f2d7b310e2db02a08b6085bd03b44ba  lubuntu-lucid-20110801-i386.iso
 
 I'm going to go ahead and burn it because I seldom get a bad download,
 but thought I should verify all the same.


My fault: I forgot to mention the md5sum is in the file at

  http://phillw.net/lubuntu-lucid-20110801-i386.iso.md5

It matches the one you posted.

Jonathan


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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Test Lubuntu Lucid 10.04.3 ISO image available

2011-07-31 Thread Jonathan Marsden
On 07/31/2011 09:12 AM, Phill Whiteside wrote:

 I've had two tries at downloading... both got to 100% then 'died' :(
 I'll have another try later.


OK.  I uploaded my test 10.04.3 ISO to your server last night, so

  http://www.phillw.net/lubuntu-lucid-20110731-i386.iso

should work now for downloads too.

As Lance confirmed (thanks), it does have issues with installation that
need further work.  It'll probably be about six more hours before I can
start to look into that.

Jonathan


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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Test Lubuntu Lucid 10.04.3 ISO image available

2011-07-31 Thread Jonathan Marsden
On 07/31/2011 03:03 PM, Phill Whiteside wrote:

 It seems that Chromium, and most certainly Oracle VM bitch out big
 time at the filename, when I renamed it as .iso, it was a happy
 bunny.


It *is* a .iso file as provided, isn't it??  Filename is supposed to be
lubuntu-lucid-20110731-i386.iso which has only one period in it, and
ends in .iso, so even brain-dead Windows-style apps that use the .???
suffix to guess at file types should be fine.  That was the idea, anyway :)

I used wget and Firefox to download it as a test, and both worked fine
for me.  Virtualbox is buggy in handling filenames with very weird
characters in them (like Sanskrit काचं -- I tend to test UTF-8 handling
with *really* unusual characters!), but my test ISO used only normal
boring USASCII in its filename...

Anyway, most folks who have been using Linux since at least April 2010
will by now have learned to use wget as their trusted download tool of
choice, right?  So

  wget -c http://phillw.net/lubuntu-lucid-20110731-i386.iso

should work in any Linux (or FreeBSD or NetBSD or Solaris) with wget
installed, and also in Windows if you install the GNUwin32 wget and put
it in your $PATH (which people who do much downloading of big ISO files
in Windows would be well advised to do, in my view!).  I think wget
exists for Mac OS X too, but I lack the details.

 My only other thought, that will possibly cause some discussion is 
 the version of pcmanfm.


And more generally, on updating packages... yes.

My sense is we should do the basics first.  So: (1) get a working
10.04.3 image out there based on lucid and lucid-updates, and then (2)
we can further enhance it as time and interest allows with newer
versions of stuff, backports, etc.

 As it is a community rebuild, would getting rid of pcman 0.5.x and
 popping on pcmanfm 0.9., ...


May I ask the obvious question: Has someone packaged pcmanfm 0.9 for
Lucid, and got it accepted into lucid-backports ?

That would be the official way to go about doing this, and it would
benefit existing users of the Lubuntu 10.04 release who want to enable
lucid-backports and update things, as well as users of a new 10.04.3
image.  I don't see the package there in lucid-backports.

HOWEVER: *first*, the 10.04.3 image needs to work as designed, and
actually install to a hard disk :)  I'm about to start looking at that.
 I think I may have used an image archive (casper, isolinux, etc.) from
the 11.04 alpha timeframe; maybe using the one from the original Lubuntu
10.04 ISO would be more appropriate.  All the lucid, lucid-udpates and
lucid-backports packages for i386 are now here in my local repo, so I
should be at the ten minutes to make a new ISO stage for Lubuntu
10.04.3 now.

Jonathan

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Second Test Lubuntu Lucid 10.04.3 ISO image available

2011-07-31 Thread Jonathan Marsden
On 07/31/2011 06:09 PM, Jonathan Marsden wrote:

 HOWEVER: *first*, the 10.04.3 image needs to work as designed, and
 actually install to a hard disk :)  ...


Well, I'm a significant step closer. A file called
lubuntu-lucid-20110801-i386.iso is being uploaded to Phill W's site as I
type.  It still has a non-functional Install Lubuntu menu item, but
the Try Lubuntu without installing one now has an appropriate
installer icon on the desktop, and clicking it works, allowing you to
install Lubuntu 10.04.3 to your hard drive.  At least, it works for me
in VirtualBox.

Once the upload finishes, it should available using

  wget -c http://phillw.net/lubuntu-lucid-20110801-i386.iso

I'm not sure how much more time I will be able to spend on this during
the work week, so I'm uploading a second test 10.04.3 ISO that I know
still has at least one significant flaw.  If anyone out there is
expecting a real fully working and fully tested Lubuntu 10.04.3
release image, then These are not the ISOs you are looking for :)

Jonathan

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[Lubuntu-desktop] Test Lubuntu Lucid 10.04.3 ISO image available

2011-07-30 Thread Jonathan Marsden
On 07/28/2011 01:15 PM, Phill Whiteside wrote:

 I was thinking that possibly using something like remastersys
 http://www.geekconnection.org/remastersys/ubuntu.html may be possible
 for Jonathan to get a 'community' 10.04 update out pretty quickly
 rather than you both having to spend time checking and re-checking a
 new-build?


I'd rather try to re-use my existing (Lubuntu 11.04) build script for
10.04.3 than use a different build approach.

My first attempt at an Lubuntu 10.04.3 ISO (warning: this is an
unofficial, community version, which is relatively untested, and may eat
your cat/steal your girlfriend/do bad things...) is now at

  ftp://ftp/jmarsden.org/pub/lubuntu-lucid-20110731-i386.iso

This boots for me in a VM, and passes the self-test, but does not always
install for me when using the Install menu option... it did the first
time I used it, but not thereafter... strange.  Subsequent attempts seem
to boot from the LiveCD image rather than running the installer.  More
testing needed!

This image has only en,es,de,fr language packs installed (downloading
all of them takes a while, so I saved some time and went for just a few
commonly used languages this time around!).

Jonathan

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Test Lubuntu Lucid 10.04.3 ISO image available

2011-07-30 Thread Jonathan Marsden
On 07/30/2011 10:02 PM, Jonathan Marsden wrote:

 My first attempt at an Lubuntu 10.04.3 ISO (warning: this is an
 unofficial, community version, which is relatively untested, and may eat
 your cat/steal your girlfriend/do bad things...) is now at
 
   ftp://ftp/jmarsden.org/pub/lubuntu-lucid-20110731-i386.iso


Typo alert!  Let's make that

  ftp://ftp.jmarsden.org/pub/lubuntu-lucid-20110731-i386.iso

Incidentally, there is an md5sum file for it at

  ftp://ftp.jmarsden.org/pub/lubuntu-lucid-20110731-i386.iso.md5

Jonathan


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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] [Community Ubuntu Documentation] Update of Lubuntu/Documentation/FAQ by mpathy

2011-07-28 Thread Jonathan Marsden
On 07/28/2011 02:55 PM, Phill Whiteside wrote:

 oops, not proposed, it has been applied. My bad If it is a problem,
 then I will roll back the page. 


 - pcmanfm $url
 + open_lxde $url




As long as it works (I have not tested this!), this is a positive change.

Jonathan


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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] community editions of 11.04 (Ubiquity RAM usage vs alternate installer)

2011-07-25 Thread Jonathan Marsden
On 07/25/2011 09:58 AM, Phill Whiteside wrote:

 When you were poking around with the installer for your low-disk
 space install version of 11.04, did you see anything that also
 doubled up the minimal RAM requirement? The standard build now
 requires 384MB RAM, a couple of people have now flagged this up. (Try
 installing it on 256MB of RAM).




I think I noticed that somewhere during alpha 3 testing, mentioned it,
and the response was along the lines of it's ubiquity, not much we can
do about it.

I think when I tested it the installer RAM requirement was closer to
320MB than 384MB though, are you sure a full 384MB is needed?

Since then there was discussion of making the Alternate text mode
installer UI be the default Lubuntu ISO, which makes sense to me.  Of
course, that needs us to be able to *create* an Alternate CD, which
needs Canonical to get the build system working for us... or for us to
do a lot of work to do it ourselves.  When I suggested I create a build
system here I was more or less told oh, don't do that, it would be a
lot of work... so I didn't, and now here we are with no build system!

I'm in a bit of a wait and see mode at the moment; if we really don't
get a working build system from Canonical by Alpha 3, I'll probably have
to make time and DIY something as a stopgap measure.  It's just that I
feel like the moment I actually do that, it will be eclipsed by the
real install setup finally working!!

Jonathan


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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Language Packs

2011-07-21 Thread Jonathan Marsden
On 07/21/2011 04:29 PM, Phill Whiteside wrote:


 I know we've discussed this before, but for the life of me I cannot 
 find the solution / bug-fix / work around




I'm not aware of previous discussion, maybe it was before my time :)

(This quote should have an attribution line, so we know who said it...)

 Only problem with 11.04 liveusb is that it showed 300 updates 
 available, and it looked like 200 of them were language packs. I
 was installing them all but eventually ran out of room on my 4gb
 usb stick. So now only updating chromium and flash (since main
 purpose is web browsing).




As far as I know, the only way to get this kind of issue is to install
hundreds of language packs.  Very few people do that, most of us do not
speak *that* many languages!  There are many packs on the CD, but by
default we do not install all of them.

The output of

  dpkg-query -W language-pack-\?\?

might be interesting to know in working on this issue.

If I am correct, the workaround is to not install (or uninstall!) all
the language packs for languages you do not need :)

More generally, if you do a lot of updates in a low-disk-space
environment, doing

  sudo apt-get clean

can free up significant disk space.

Jonathan


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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Ubuntu Developer Week - Preparation

2011-07-08 Thread Jonathan Marsden
On 07/08/2011 04:37 PM, Phill Whiteside wrote:

 As of yet, i have had no input to the presentation. I do need
 thoughts in by about Wednesday.


OK, lets do an outline for people to improve on.  Try something like:

Title: Lubuntu: Getting Started with a new lightweight Ubuntu Flavour

 1. What is Lubuntu? (two sentence definition)
 2. Why do we need abother *ubuntu flavour? (reason for our existence)
 3. Who is it useful to? (intended audience)
 4. How to get started (where to download, where to get help)
 5. What do do when you have issues with it (where/how to report bugs)
 6. Minimal hardware needed:
6.1 for GUI install
6.2 for manual install on very low RAM machines
 7. Current known issues (point to FAQ)
 8. What changes will Lubuntu Oneiric bring?
 9. How you can help (testing/developing/translating/etc.)
10. Any questions?

That should fill a UDW slot, I'd think?  It's not super
developer-focused, but that is probably OK?  Depends on who the
intended audience is, which I am not totally clear about.

Comments and improvements welcome.

BTW we should check what we officially are... a Ubuntu variant, or
flavour or ... whatever it is... and then use that term consistently.

I'd tend to skip the history -- users and potential developers are
likely to care more about what Lubuntu can do for them *now* and what it
*will* do in the future, than about the past.

Jonathan

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Hmm, does any of this affect us?

2011-06-24 Thread Jonathan Marsden
On 06/24/2011 03:21 AM, Phill Whiteside wrote:

 And the RAM / CPU Usage for USC on a minimal spec Lubuntu machine is
 Is kinda what I'm asking :)


Why are you asking that?  Lubuntu is not about to start shipping USC by
default.  Nor is Lubuntu about to remove synaptic.

People with minimal spec Lubuntu machines should install Lubuntu on
them, and not Ubuntu.  So people with low spec machines will never see
or use USC, they will see and use synaptic.  Just as they do now.

This is a non-issue for Lubuntu, as far as I can see.

Jonathan

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Hmm, does any of this affect us?

2011-06-24 Thread Jonathan Marsden
Earlier I wrote:

 This is a non-issue for Lubuntu, as far as I can see.

On 06/24/2011 02:47 PM, Jean-Pierre Vidal Piesset wrote:

 Maybe the concern about this should be focus on the future of the app.
 Will it still be well supported now that's off from Ubuntu?


(1) It's not off from Ubuntu -- it is just not included on the Ubuntu
CD, and not installed by default.  It is still included in the Ubuntu
software ecosystem.

  rmadison -s oneiric synaptic  # outputs:


  synaptic | 0.75.2ubuntu1 |   oneiric | source, amd64, i386

It is clearly still there :)

(2) The future of synaptic and how well it will be supported is really a
matter for the upstream synaptic developers, and no-one on this list is
a synaptic dev as far as I know.  Since there is no sign of synaptic
disappearing from Debian, or from the Ubuntu repositories, I think we
are pretty safe there :)

To me, this seems a bit like asking Now Ubuntu uses Unity by default,
will the GNOME UI cease to exist or become unsupported?.  No, of course
it won't :)

SUMMARY: As far as I can see, there is no need for concern about this.
Not for concern about its effect on Lubuntu, not for concern about the
future of the app, not for concern about its future support.  No concern
at all is warranted.

Jonathan


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[Lubuntu-desktop] Leafpad 0.8.18.1 packaged -- testing wanted

2011-06-23 Thread Jonathan Marsden
I've packaged a new upstream version of leafpad, 0.8.18.1, for Debian
and Ubuntu, and there are now Ubuntu packages of it in my PPA.

Brave volunteers running Ubuntu or Lubuntu natty (or oneiric alpha1) who
are willing to test this in the next week or so can obtain it using:

  sudo apt-add-repository ppa:jmarsden
  sudo apt-get update
  sudo apt-get install leafpad

And see what I broke!  Since these are still very unofficial packages,
for now please report any bugs you find that are in these packages but
NOT in the Ubuntu Natty leafpad packages here on the mailing list, please.

Thanks,

Jonathan

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[Lubuntu-desktop] pcmanfm copyright and licencing (was: Re: Call for review: PCManFM is almost ready for a new release. )

2011-06-23 Thread Jonathan Marsden
 (4) One has a rather different copyright, and a license
 statement that needs fixing:

   src/gseal-gtk-compat.h: LGPL (with incorrect FSF address)

 
On 06/23/2011 09:27 AM, PCMan wrote:

 Is it possible to make it GPL? I forgot who added this file.


Only its authors can change the licence terms it is released under.
They seem to be would be:

 *  Copyright © 2009 Thomas H.P. Andersen pho...@gmail.com,
 *  2009 Javier Jardón jjar...@gnome.org

Do we know these guys?  I think it will be easier to just change
debian/copyright.  Or is there a legal issue with mixing LGPL and GPL
code in one binary??  I don't think there is...

 Adding a copyright to autogen.sh is something PCMan would need to
 do, since he wrote it (I presume).


 I forgot who wrote it, but IIRC, Marty Jack did it long time ago.


Does the pcmanfm version control system have history info going back far
enough to find out who first uploaded it?  The autogen.sh in the pcmanfm
Lucid package is dated 2008-09-05 and is completely different, so it
doesn't seem to have been *that* long ago that the newer one was added
... ah, here we go:

 commit 842a30fd8dc6a336e800dbe35428c7edddb4d7d7
 Author: Hong Jen Yee (PCMan) pcman...@gmail.com
 Date:   Sun Aug 9 13:47:04 2009 +
 
 Apply the same autogen.sh script used by lxde.


So this code has been in pcmanfm for less than two years.

 I do not know how to fix the lack of copyright and licence in
 xml-purge.c, because I have no idea who wrote it.  If PCman did,
 then he can add a licence and copyright notice to it, too.


 I did it long time ago.


Cool!  So this one, we can easily fix :)  Please add a licence and
copyright statement to it; I'd suggest the same licence the rest of the
pcmanfm code has, GPLv2 or later, but it's your code, so it is your
decision how you licence it!

If you can also update Copyright statements for your files to be
2009-2011 rather than just 2009, that would be good too.

Hmm, I found a few more files with possibly missing info:

src/gtk/exo/exo-marshal.c: *No copyright* UNKNOWN
src/gtk/exo/exo-marshal.h: *No copyright* UNKNOWN
src/gtk/exo/test.c: *No copyright* UNKNOWN
src/tests/test-fm-path.c: *No copyright* UNKNOWN
src/udisks/udisks-device.h: *No copyright* GENERATED FILE
src/udisks/udisks.h: *No copyright* GENERATED FILE

On the plus side, I'm not hearing any major big bug reports from
anyone testing pcmanfm -- so either not enough people are testing it, or
else it is in reasonably good shape for release :)

Can we get copyright/licence info fixed up wherever we can, and then
(unless we have major bugs to fix) generate a pcmanfm release tarball?
And a libfm one too?

Jonathan

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] autogenerating pcmanfm LINGUAS file

2011-06-19 Thread Jonathan Marsden
On 06/18/2011 10:16 PM, PCMan wrote:

 Regarding to the LINGUAS file, we have a special issue here.  ...


Yes, when I did the bzr recipe to package from the git sources more
directly I discovered that automation.  So perhaps the earlier patch was
historical -- created before the automated approach was used, or else
the Debian packaging did not pick up and use the automation.

 Cons:


 1. If some newly added po files are broken, this automatically
 breaks the build process.


This is not necessarily a con :)  We want to know as soon as someone
does something to the official master repository that breaks it!

 2. Some translation with bad quality becomes available before
 they're well-tested.

 

 Current approach is very convenient, but later proven to be 
 problematic sometimes if there are some broken po files added to the 
 repo.


Perhaps whoever adds the .po files should also test them?  Or if this is
100% automated, then perhaps we/you/someone needs to check a daily
automated build to verify nothing bad has happened, or set up an
automated alert email to be sent to you if it breaks?

 So, should we change it?


As long as it works, I'd say keep it.  Obviously any source tarball
releases will have their contents tested anyway, and if there are some
broken .po files in the git head at the time of such a release, they can
be excluded from the tarball easily enough, I would think.  You could
even set their export-ignore attribute in git until they are fixed, if
you want to make that exclusion more automated.

 Any comments?


I'd say keep it automated, use daily builds to check for breakage, and
set export-ignore on any badly broken .po files, so they do not get
included in release tarballs, or come up with some similar scheme to
exclude them.

Jonathan

P.S.  At last, my automated pcmanfm build for Natty i386 just succeeded
in my jmarsden/lubuntu PPA :)

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Call for review: PCManFM is almost ready for a new release.

2011-06-19 Thread Jonathan Marsden
On 06/18/2011 10:07 PM, PCMan wrote:

 Add LINGUAS, reference doc files and libfm-pref-apps.desktop launcher:
 
 We do not translate desktop files directly. Neither do we commit the
 translated desktop files.


OK... then this patch is not needed upstream.  I'm not sure why it was
done this way as a patch in the Debian packaging, in that case.  Perhaps
a historical artifact?

 We did the translation for desktop files in po files, and only put
 *.desktop.in files in git.


I think I see what could have happened here; the package build process
was not running all the autoconf tools the way autogen.sh does, and so
it tried to work around that.  I have very recently created some changed
packaging files in lp:~lxde/pcmanfm/libfm-packaging which *do* run all
the needed autoconf and intltoolize stuff, and that seems to work
without the translated files being in the tree, because it generates
them at build time.

 Ensure correct icon is used in panel.

 A better fix is to set the icon-name property for the window in
 GtkBuilder glade file instead.


OK.  I am more of a command-line person than a GUI programmer, the GTK
UI stuff is relatively new to me.  As I recall, I fixed the bug in the
way Julien suggested it be fixed.  There were several similar issues
with icon names not being set in various LXDE-related tools.  I fixed
them all in a similar way to this, and those patches were accepted by
Julien into the Ubuntu packaging.  I can redo this in glade if that is
the correct approach.  I'm not really sure I understand the benefit of
moving one line from code into a glade file, though.

 Add GLIB_LIBS when linking documentation.


 This seems to be fine, but I'm not sure which files should be pushed
 to git repo since some are generated files.


This commit should have added exactly one line to exactly one file:

  docs/reference/libfm/Makefile.am

The debian/patches/04_fix_docs_linker.patch file it was based on only
affects that one line.  If the commit did more than that, that was a
mistake I made!  As far as I can tell, it only changed that one line, see


https://gitorious.org/lxde-jmarsden/libfm-jmarsden/commit/284a1640d146b7bc6483ebb0b02058a78e91

I *think* you should have been able to git cherrypick this commit
directly into your master git repository, where it should have changed
just that one file; that was my intention, at least.  If that didn't
work, then we should probably try to figure out why, so that we can do
this kind of cooperation more smoothly next time.

 Disable deprecated gio code by default.


 This looks fine, but will this affect distros with older versions of glib?


Possibly, I'm not sure.  However, are new releases of pcmanfm intended
for backporting to those older distros?  I'm not sure this is an issue
in practice for a new pcmanfm/libfm release, unless current development
releases of major distros (Fedora, SuSE, Debian, ...) are still using
older glib versions.

 Specify default terminal emulator (was: 01-lxde-conf.patch in Ubuntu


 The x-terminal-emulator thing IIRC is Debian-specific. So this better
 goes to debian package rather than upstream.


OK, then yes, that should stay as a patch, in Debian/Ubuntu packaging.

I'd definitely like to see the GLIB_LIBS change included upstream, as (I
think) it will allow me to re-enable gtk-doc use in my test packages
made from the libfm git sources.  Removing the deprecated gio code would
also be good to see, too, unless it will cause issues building libfm on
other current distributions.

I'll take a look at the glade change idea for the icon, but not this
weekend.

Jonathan

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Call for review: PCManFM is almost ready for a new release.

2011-06-19 Thread Jonathan Marsden
On 06/19/2011 03:57 AM, Julien Lavergne wrote:

 Could we push them to a shared PPA, like lubuntu-dev/lubuntu-daily ?


Done :)

Jonathan


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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] LP Bug #687458 (was: pcmanfm bug )

2011-06-18 Thread Jonathan Marsden
On Fri, 17 Jun 2011 20:26 -0400, Jean-Pierre Vidal Piesset
jpx...@gmail.com wrote:

 I'm confirming this bug on Lubuntu 10.04 with pcmanfn 0.9.7

This is already a known issue, in Launchpad at

  https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/pcmanfm/+bug/687458

Any further information that would help get it fixed would be better
added to that but report, rather than discussed here on the mailing
list, I think.

Jonathan
-- 
  Jonathan Marsden
  jmars...@fastmail.fm


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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Call for review: PCManFM is almost ready for a new release.

2011-06-18 Thread Jonathan Marsden
On 06/18/2011 12:53 AM, Jonathan Marsden wrote:

 On 06/13/2011 10:12 AM, PCMan wrote:
 
 https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=156956atid=801864


I think we might also want to go through the bugs reported at

  https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/pcmanfm

since some of these look like pcmanfm crashes if you do *this* type of
bugs, which IMO are important to fix, if they can be reproduced.

Jonathan

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Call for review: PCManFM is almost ready for a new release.

2011-06-18 Thread Jonathan Marsden
Lance,

On 06/13/2011 10:59 PM, Jonathan Marsden wrote:

 ... you have two
 options if you want a package of the current libfm and pcmanfm code:

  (1) go ahead and package it now, yourself, in your own PPA, or
  (2) wait for someone else to package it.


Option (2) happened, or is happening.

My PPA at ppa:jmarsden/lubuntu now has libfm and pcmanfm versions for
Natty 11.04, packages that you can help us test.  They are being built
from the upstream git development source code.  Right now, the amd64
versions are already there, and the i386 build of pcmanfm should arrive
in a couple of hours.  So

  sudo add-apt-repository ppa:jmarsden/lubuntu
  sudo apt-get update
  sudo apt-get install pcmanfm

should get you a packaged pcmanfm you can test.

Jonathan

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Call for review: PCManFM is almost ready for a new release.

2011-06-15 Thread Jonathan Marsden
On 06/14/2011 03:17 PM, Julien Lavergne wrote:

 I'm playing with writing a script to grab the libfm git head and
 Julien's package and automatically create a new package based on the
 combination of the two.  ...

 If you want to spend more time on this, you should look at recipes on
 Launchpad.

Ah... thanks.  I didn't know recipes could use git, I've done one for
daily builds that uses bzr... I'll take a look.  It may be Friday or
Saturday before I can spend more time on this, though.

Jonathan

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Call for review: PCManFM is almost ready for a new release.

2011-06-14 Thread Jonathan Marsden
Lance,

On 06/11/2011 01:55 PM, Lance wrote:

 As a complete noob to Lubuntu (moving from Ubuntu/Gnome) I wonder if 
 it would be possible to test this via a PPA before committing to a 
 change for Oneiric.

Yes, it is possible :)

By definition, a new upstream release of pcmanfm will need to be
packaged before it can appear in a PPA or in Oneiric.  So you have two
options if you want a package of the current libfm and pcmanfm code:

 (1) go ahead and package it now, yourself, in your own PPA, or

 (2) wait for someone else to package it.

Right now, as far as I know, no-one has done that work, so this new code
is currently only available from git, for those comfortable compiling
and installing it directly from sources.

Once things settle down slightly, it will be packaged.  I may have a
quick go at packaging libfm and pcmanfm from their respective git trees
somewhere in the couple of days, but no promises :)  I don't have much
time available for doing this right now, unfortunately.

Jonathan

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Call for review: PCManFM is almost ready for a new release.

2011-06-13 Thread Jonathan Marsden
On 06/13/2011 07:11 AM, Martin Bagge / brother wrote:

 On 2011-06-13 14:27, Julien Lavergne wrote:

 So, what is missing for having a stable release of pcmanfm ? Any
 major features are still missing ?

This is a key question for Lubuntu right now.

 Using git HEAD as source for a package in a distribution is not what
 pcman wants (and I support this way).

Agreed -- and the simplest way to prevent this is to release often
enough that distributions do not feel any need to package from git :)

 Last official release is 2010-10-14 ...

Which is both fairly old, and also bad timing regarding Ubuntu
releases, being only about two weeks before the Ubuntu 10.10 final release.

SUGGESTION: Let's test the current almost-0.9.9 codebase, fix any
major issues found in the next week or so, then bump the SONAME version
and release it before the end of June 2011.  Can we do that?

Since some testers seem to need packaged versions to test, I'll look at
creating a test unofficial package from git for them, so we get slightly
more testing.  Another way to go would be to release a 0.9.9~rc1
tarball, and a corresponding one for libfm, if that is preferred --
doing that means noone has to use git head for packaging :)

Jonathan

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Call for review: PCManFM is almost ready for a new release.

2011-06-13 Thread Jonathan Marsden
On Tue, 14 Jun 2011 01:12:06 +0800 PCMan pcman...@gmail.com wrote:

 https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=156956atid=801864

OK, thanks, that's good to know.

 SUGGESTION: Let's test the current almost-0.9.9 codebase, fix any
 major issues found in the next week or so, then bump the SONAME version
 and release it before the end of June 2011.  Can we do that?

 Yes, if with help from the community. No if I do it myself.
 Patches from Lubuntu is appreciated.

Since you mentioned it:

I *already* turned  libfm patches from Julien's Ubuntu package of
libfm into a git repo for you, six commits, and posted about doing 
that to this list.  All that was left for you to do was to cherrypick
which ones you want to include in the upstream sources:

  https://lists.launchpad.net/lubuntu-desktop/msg03977.html

As far as I can see, *none* of them have been included so far!  Either I did
something wrong, or else you don't really want those patches?  Help me
understand what I have to do so you will accept the commits I made for you from
Ubuntu patches, please.

 Since some testers seem to need packaged versions to test, I'll look at
 creating a test unofficial package from git for them, so we get slightly
 more testing.  Another way to go would be to release a 0.9.9~rc1
 tarball, and a corresponding one for libfm, if that is preferred --
 doing that means noone has to use git head for packaging :)

 That's true.

I'm playing with writing a script to grab the libfm git head and
Julien's package and automatically create a new package based on the
combination of the two.  It doesn't quite work yet... if it does, I'll
try to do the same for pcmanfm, and then we can create test packages for
pcmanfm testers much more easily :)

Jonathan

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] The procedure for transforming Ubuntu into Lubuntu

2011-06-07 Thread Jonathan Marsden
On 06/06/2011 11:49 AM, Jason Hsu wrote:

 Given the similarities in our distros (targeting the lower part of
 the Linux market and being based on existing distros), I figure that
 much of what works for Lubuntu will work for Swift Linux.

I wouldn't be very confident of that; we use the Ubuntu repositories,
and antix is rather unlikely to do so :)

 What is the procedure for creating the latest version of Lubuntu?
 I'd like to go through your process from start to finish.

We don't transform Ubuntu into Lubuntu; instead, we build an Lubuntu
ISO from  our chosen set of packages that are in the Ubuntu repositories.

You chose an interesting time to ask about this!  As of right now,
today, the Lubuntu ISO build script is at

  https://code.launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop/+junk/lubuntu-tools

Please note that this is (I really really hope!) about to become
*totally* obsolete, because Lubuntu is becoming official and so
migrating to use Canonical/Ubuntu ISO build infrastructure and tools.
We expect and hope our next Alpha2 release, due on 07 July 2011, will
use the new (well, new to Lubuntu!) build tools, not our old script.

There is work almost underway by Michael Casadevall to document those
tools, see


https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/foundations-o-image-build-documentation

This documentation work is currently waiting for a significant internal
change in the tools (!) from using livecd-rootfs to using live-helper,
which will be completed in the next few days.  See

  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/foundations-o-live-build

for that specification, with some of the gory details a little more
visible at

  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FoundationsTeam/Specs/SwitchToLiveBuild

To be honest, if you are creating an antix based distribution, I'd
suggest using whatever ISO build tools antix uses, rather than anything
else.  Just as Lubuntu, being (now, at last!) part of the Ubuntu family,
will use the same tools that the other Ubuntu flavours use.

Hoping this helps,

Jonathan

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[Lubuntu-desktop] Fwd: Re: ISO Image Build Documentation Status?

2011-06-07 Thread Jonathan Marsden
Just so the whole Lubuntu team is kept in the picture, I recently
emailed Michael Casadevall about the documentation for the Ubuntu ISO
build system, and he responded with the email below.

Jonathan

 Original Message 
Subject: Re: ISO Image Build Documentation Status?
Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2011 06:52:12 -0700
From: Michael Casadevall mcasadev...@ubuntu.com
To: Jonathan Marsden jmars...@fastmail.fm

It's great to get your email, and know that there's serious interest in
this. Right now, debian-cd is currently transitioning from livecd-rootfs
to live-helper under the hood which has greatly complicated documenting
it. Once this transition is complete, I'll start working towards rough
documentation as it makes no sense to document what won't be the same in
a few days :-/.
Michael

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Fwd: LXDE shutown dependency/permissions?

2011-06-06 Thread Jonathan Marsden
On 06/06/2011 03:22 AM, Jared Norris wrote:

 I take no credit for the answer but just wanted to pass on the 
 information apparently the issue with the missing shutdown and
 reboot buttons has been traced to starting X using the startx
 command rather than the correct startlubuntu command. Apparently
 this means you were running a default LXDE theme not actually
 Lubuntu.

 Thanks jmarsden for the information and I'm sure if you have more 
 questions he'd be happy to answer them (they watch the mailing list
 here)

Let's give credit to Unit193 for pointing out the startlubuntu command
to me in IRC earlier.  So this is good example of an issue solved by the
Lubuntu community working together, rather than by one person :)

One more note: if you lack the startlubuntu command, you should install
the lubuntu-desktop-settings package, by doing something like:

  sudo apt-get install lubuntu-default-settings

Jonathan


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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Does Lubuntu still need anything in multiverse?

2011-06-05 Thread Jonathan Marsden
On 06/05/2011 06:03 AM, Julien Lavergne wrote:

 Le Saturday 04 June 2011 à 22:13 -0700, Jonathan Marsden a écrit :

 http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~gilir/+junk/livecd-rootfs-lubuntu-support/revision/77

 that we are telling the build system that we need multiverse. 

 This revision is quite outdated. You are right, we don't need
 multiverse now.

Great!  Where are the more up to date versions of livecd-rootfs and its
friends that know about Lubuntu, so I can play with the right ones?
That bzr branch is the one linked to from the blueprint at

https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/other-lubuntu-o-integrate-ubuntu-ecosystem

which is a current (Oneiric) blueprint... so I thought I had found the
right code branch... apparently not?

On a related note, do you have any recent information on the status of
the Canonical SAN upgrade that will let us start using their ISO build
infrastructure?

Thanks,

Jonathan

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[Lubuntu-desktop] Does Lubuntu still need anything in multiverse?

2011-06-04 Thread Jonathan Marsden
I noticed in

http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~gilir/+junk/livecd-rootfs-lubuntu-support/revision/77

that we are telling the build system that we need multiverse.

But I *think* we should not be doing that any more.  All packages in
11.04 were in main, universe or restricted.

Am I mistaken?  Can anyone think of a reason why the Lubuntu CD needs
anything from multiverse, either in 11.04 Natty or in 11.10 Oneiric?

Thanks,

Jonathan

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[Lubuntu-desktop] time-admin broken in Lubuntu 11.10 Alpha 1 - GTK3 issue

2011-06-04 Thread Jonathan Marsden
I know we don't have GTK3 stuff sorted in Alpha1.  This is an example of
the kind of issues we may face as we migrate.

Clicking on Bird - System Tools - Time and Date does nothing visible.

Running

  sudo time-admin 

in LXterminal gets me

Gtk-ERROR **: GTK+ 2.x symbols detected. Using GTK+ 2.x and GTK+ 3 in
the same process is not supported
aborting...

which at least tells me what is happening :)

I am not sure if it is worth filing bugs in LP for this kind of thing
this early -- comments welcome on this.

Jonathan

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Help pages

2011-06-03 Thread Jonathan Marsden
On 06/03/2011 06:32 PM, Phill Whiteside wrote:

 I know you did ask if we could manually divert every single page from
 https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Lubuntu/DocumentationHelp to
 https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Lubuntu and initially I thought that
 it was not a major undertaking. I was wrong.

Can't that be scripted?  If I remember rightly, a divert is just a magic
text string at the top of each page.  So a bulk edit of all those pages
should do it.  What I am I forgetting?

Jonathan

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Permissions and who am i (was: Possible bug? )

2011-06-02 Thread Jonathan Marsden
On 06/02/2011 07:54 PM, Jared Norris wrote:

 This is only a fairly recent occurrence or I would have picked up on
 it I would have thought. Does anyone have any suggestions on the best
 way to troubleshoot this sort of issue? I would simply log out and
 then back in but this is my main machine where I value my uptime so
 would prefer to leave that until last ditch effort.

Firstly, I think your description of the issue may be upside-down.

If the commands run from the GUI were being run as root, they would
more or less by definition be able to access any file owned by any user
anywhere on your machine (unless you have been doing some unusual things
with POSIX ACLs, or kernel capability bits, or both... which I rather
doubt!).

You asked for things to try to troubleshoot this further:

(1) In LXTerminal (assuming you can launch LXterminal OK), what does the
command

  id

output?  It should tell you who LXterminal thinks you are.  You can also try

  who am i

as another way to see who you are :)

(2) Next, check that your shell is clear about who you are, with

  echo $USER has a home at $HOME

and then check that the passwd file has you listed sanely, with

  grep $USER /etc/passwd

Then recheck the permissions on your home dir with

  ls -ld $HOME

You could also usefully check for files (or directories) in there which
are *not* owned by you, with

  find $HOME ! -user $USER -ls

which will output nothing at all on a 'normal' machine.

(3) Now, you need to find out who the various GUI components of LXDE are
running as, because it sounds to me as though they may be running as
someone else.

  ps aux |grep lx

should be a start on that.

(4) If you really want more homework after all that, just for fun, run
pcmanfm, but run it from the shell, not by pressing buttons anywhere
(hands off that mouse!) :

  pcmanfm 

Now check whether it can see your files (in $HOME and elsewhere)
normally, and can work with them, and also check who it is now running
as, just as a you never know check:

  ps aux |grep pcmanfm

OK, that's enough things to try for one email :)

Jonathan

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[Lubuntu-desktop] Thoughts on valuing uptime (was: Re: Possible bug? )

2011-06-02 Thread Jonathan Marsden
On 06/02/2011 07:54 PM, Jared Norris wrote:

 I would simply log out and then back in but this is my main machine
 where I value my uptime so would prefer to leave that until last
 ditch effort.

(1) Logging in and out does not change uptime, rebooting changes uptime.

(2) Unless the machine is controlling an artificial heart, or something
similarly medically-oriented, *why* do you value your machine uptime?

Jonathan



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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Creating An Accessibility Specification for Lubuntu 11.10

2011-05-30 Thread Jonathan Marsden
On 05/30/2011 12:19 AM, Chris wrote:

 What I think is going wrong is difference in jargon. When the Lubuntu
 devs/people asked for a roadmap is what the Accessibility people
 would see as an priority list. When the Lubuntu people have their
 priority list, then they can create their own roadmap.

That sounds fine to me :)

My current background assumption is that Lubuntu is late to the
accessibility party, just as it is late to officialness, and that the
other (already official) Ubuntu variants are, therefore, already
substantially further along this particular path than we currently are
in Lubuntu.

So that we can better discover what needs to be done within Lubuntu, and
in what order, I would like to know, with some reasonable degree of
clarity and specificity:

 (A) What are the expectations of those seeking adding accessibility
to Lubuntu, and what is the relative priority of each such expectation?

 (B) How do these expectations compare to what is already implemented in
each of the other Ubuntu variants, and in Debian?

 (C) How do these expectations compare to what each of the other Ubuntu
variants plans to do in the current (Oneiric) development cycle?

Links to current information on what Debian and each Ubuntu variant has
done, and plans to do, in this regard would therefore be useful.

Lower priority, but still very useful, would be to also know:

 (D) How can we know when we have got there -- how can we verify that
Lubuntu (or LXDE, or an application within Lubuntu) has attained a
particular desired level or standard of accessibility?  (I'm aware of
http://www.w3.org/WAI/ for web site accessibility -- what are the
application or OS or DE equivalents used in the Debian/Ubuntu community?).

At this point, I *really* don't mind what anyone calls this
documentation (specifications, blueprints, roadmaps, priority lists,
other?).  I also do not mind who created it (the Ubuntu accessibility
team, or development teams within each Ubuntu variant, or even sabdfl
himself!).  My immediate concern is to determine whether such current
documentation actually exists at all, and if it does, preferably some
idea of its current level of acceptance or officialness (because great
documentation that everyone else is ignoring may be less helpful than
mediocre documentation that everyone else has already agreed to follow
and implement!).

And, very fundamentally: if this documentation does exist, where can we
read it?  Everything I have found so far seems either not actually a
priority list/roadmap, not really Ubuntu-specific, or old and out of
date.  So perhaps my Google skills are lacking in this (accessibility)
domain, and I need a little more help finding the real thing.

If these requests and questions are unreasonable, or expose a total
misunderstanding of the situation on my part, so be it, please enlighten
me further :)

Perhaps the most useful thing I have found so far is
http://developer.gnome.org/accessibility-devel-guide/3.0/accessibility-devel-guide.html
-- which is GNOME documentation, not Debian or Ubuntu documentation, and
Lubuntu does not use GNOME.

If, in the end, all of this boils down to as a first major useful step,
please just add orca and espeak and their dependencies to the Lubuntu
CD... that would be good to know :)

Jonathan

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Creating An Accessibility Specification for Lubuntu 11.10

2011-05-29 Thread Jonathan Marsden
On 05/27/2011 09:26 AM, Pia wrote:

 ..., but in open source, if you have a very small group represented,
 you have to get your hands dirty first in order to sufficiently
 understand the situation well enough to come up with good system
 specifications and a reasonable roadmap in a reasonable time frame.
 So, what we were doing in discussing details and wanting to actually
 test a few things was just that and what you originally were 
 complaining about.  Assessing the situation would allow us to know
 what we can take from Ubuntu's road map and what has to be adjusted.

How about sharing Ubuntu's current official accessibility roadmap with
the Lubuntu developers, as a start?  I note that

  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/Links

does not seem to me to include a pointer to it, at least not by any name
recognizably similar to Ubuntu Accessibility Roadmap, which seems an
unfortunate omission.

Point us towards it, please, and tell us how far along each current
Ubuntu variant (Ubuntu, Kubuntu, Xubuntu, and Server) is in implementing
it, if that is not clear from reading the roadmap itself or related
documents to which it links.

Then, we can perhaps be a part of the process of assessing the
situation, determining what we can take from Ubuntu's accessibility
roadmap in creating the Lubuntu equivalent of it.  My suspicion is that
LXDE itself could need a fair bit of work to use the GTK accessibility
stuff well enough to be useful -- but that's a total guess, in part
because I've not seen a Ubuntu-oriented definition of doing
accessibility well enough to be useful yet.

I suspect that if you and Alan and Phill and Charlie and whoever else
create a roadmap for Lubuntu accessibility separate from the Lubuntu
developers, it may not be well accepted by them when it is finally
presented to them.  Better, surely, to include them (us) in that
process, from the beginning?

Reading

  https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-dev/+members#active

will show you that Lubuntu officially currently has exactly two (2)
developers!

Both of them have asked, independently and in different ways, on the
lubuntu-desktop list, for some kind of definition of what exactly we are
trying to do to add accessibility this cycle.

If wanting some clarity means not getting it, then I'd say you are
100% correct, by that definition I don't get it yet!

As for specifications and clear definitions etc. being overly formal and
so unacceptable to you, blueprints and UDS discussion and refinement
thereof are a standard and expected part of every Ubuntu development
cycle, for every Ubuntu variant, as I hope you are aware.  Lubuntu is
not an exception in this regard.  Nor is accessibility.  I have not
suggested anything different happen for work on accessibility than
happens for other software development work on Lubuntu.  First, decide
what work will be done; then, do that work.

Trying to locate the Ubuntu Accessibility Roadmap that you seem to
suggest already exists somewhere, I just now did a Google search for

  ubuntu accessibility roadmap

and found no clearly definitive document for the Oneiric cycle in the
first couple of pages of hits.  Can you provide pointers to the
documentation I have missed?

From this search, I did find my way to:


https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-community/+spec/ubuntutheproject-community-n-improving-accessibility-devel-and-info

which suggests that perhaps this kind of info is not in fact yet
available, but is perhaps being worked on this cycle, since many parts
of that spec say postponed -- presumably postponed until Oneiric?

If so, my proposal that we wait one cycle (note: not indefinitely, one
development cycle!) before commencing Lubuntu accessibility development
work fits it rather well, doesn't it -- once the spec linked above is
fully completed, Lubuntu will (I would think) then have easier access to
the baseline documentation and information needed to make good decisions
about what to implement to improve its accessibility in the 12.04 cycle.

I also found

  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/Team/Goals

which says these are potential goals; so not really a clearly defined
roadmap, at this stage, then.

Then I found

  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/Specs

which has links to some specs dating back to Feisty (!), and specs for
Natty that may or may not have actually been implemented (it doesn't
say), and links to docs that it says must be updated.  No clarity on
Oneiric accessibility status or a roadmap there.  Last edit was around 7
months ago -- a whole development cycle ago.

Maybe everyone knows where the current official and widely accepted
Ubuntu Accessibility Roadmap really is, but Julien and I currently do
not, or we would not be asking for a clear statement of what adding
accessibility is going to take, for Lubuntu.  Please work with us to
create such a definition, since it apparently does not yet exist.  Or,
point us directly to it, if it does already exist.

I remain convinced 

Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Creating An Accessibility Specification for Lubuntu 11.10

2011-05-29 Thread Jonathan Marsden
On 05/29/2011 12:03 PM, Alan Bell wrote:

 How about sharing Ubuntu's current official accessibility roadmap with
 the Lubuntu developers, as a start?  ...

 not a roadmap as such, but I have started drafting a document on the
 Ubuntu infrastructure for accessibility
 http://pad.ubuntu.com/AccessibilityInfrastructure

Does this mean that, in reality, there is no accessiblity roadmap, for
any Ubuntu variant?

Thanks.  I made a few minor edits.  A wiki would be better so there is a
clear history of who edited what when, etc.

 This will get transferred to the wiki at some point when it is nearly
 complete and the most glaring errors have been fixed.

I'd suggest just putting what you have into a wiki page, now, so that
history will be maintained as the document is changed.

What this lacks at this point is any sense of priorities -- *this* is
more important to do first, *that* can wait, etc., or any sense of to
make a Qt app more easily accessible, to *this*; to make a GTK app more
accessible, do *that*; to create an accessible installer, do *this other
thing*.  So it is currently useful as background info, but not in
suggesting what to do next.

Also, links to the various things (software, APIs, etc.) that it
mentions would be a great addition.

 I don't know much about Lubuntu, only that it is based on something 
 called LXDE as a window manager and is targeted at really old
 computers.

Well, or some people just like a leaner faster desktop environment.  I'm
surprised to see how many Lubuntu users actually choose use it on
hardware that would support Ubuntu or Kubuntu.

 Looking at lubuntu.net it seems to be based on GTK, so I imagine just
 installing gnome-orca will pull in speech dispatcher at-spi2 and espeak,
 install onboard and you have an on-screen keyboard too. Does it use
 ubiquity for the installer?

Yes, but alternative installer(s) are something we want to see as we
move to using real Ubuntu ISO build infrastructure.

Jonathan

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] IRC Client

2011-05-28 Thread Jonathan Marsden
Phill,

On 05/28/2011 04:24 PM, Phill Whiteside wrote:

 If we are going to keep pidgin for IM, what do we need xchat for?

Mainly for those of us who use IRC, and only IRC, and have used xchat
for years :)  It's a matter of personal preference, of course.

If there is good reason to remove xchat, I'll live (after all, I can
make custom ISOs based on Lubuntu fairly easily if I feel like it :)

 Do we really want to waste RAM with two programmes?

RAM?  Wait!  xchat does not load by default at boot.  How does it waste
RAM?  It is only using RAM when you choose to run it.

If wasting RAM is the issue, then removing xchat from the default
install will not solve it.  What led you to conclude that including
xchat is wasting RAM?

If we need more space on the CD for new whizzy stuff, OK, then we
probably need to go through the package list looking for things we can
remove.  What new whizzy stuff is being added in Lubuntu 11.10 that
requires extra disk/CD space?  I thought we had more or less reached
consensus among the devs that Lubuntu 11.10 was primarily a bug fix and
migrate to official build infrastructure and GTK3 release -- has that
changed?

Jonathan

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Lubuntu 11.10 (Alpha1 just to change sources.list?)

2011-05-28 Thread Jonathan Marsden
On 05/27/2011 09:21 AM, Yorvyk wrote:

 I think an Alpha 1 is needed to provided something for people to
 install in order to get started testing rather than changing Natty to
 Oneiric in sources.list.

So you are saying that is is easier and quicker to download an entire
600+MB ISO, and then install from it (possibly first burning it to a
CD-R), rather than typing

  sudo sed -i -e 's/natty/oneiric/g' /etc/apt/sources.list

The only awkward part this time around is trying to spell oneiric
correctly, since that adjective is much less commonly used than karmic,
lucid, maverick or natty by most English speakers.

I know which I think is easier and quicker -- type the command!

Jonathan

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] IRC Client

2011-05-28 Thread Jonathan Marsden
On 05/28/2011 05:34 PM, Phill Whiteside wrote:

 wasting RAm actually referred to having x-chat and pidgin both running
 together... x-chat does IRC fanatastically, but is not too good at MSN
 messenger, AOL / AIM, Yahoo! etc :)

OK.  So the fix for that is simple: don't do that, unless you have
enough RAM to spare :)

No change to Lubuntu needed :)

Jonathan

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] IRC Client

2011-05-28 Thread Jonathan Marsden
On 05/28/2011 06:47 PM, Jean-Pierre Vidal Piesset wrote:

 IMHO having two programs that one fit in the other is a waste of
 space in the CD and effort for the Lubuntu devs.

It's definitely extra effort for one of the Lubuntu devs if I have to
learn to use Pidgin, after years of using xchat :)

Since xchat is not maintained by the Lubuntu devs, but by its own
developers, I am not sure why leaving it in the Lubuntu seed list is
*more* effort for the Lubuntu devs than taking it out -- can you please
explain?

 Pidgin can handle what xchat does...

Really?  Plugins for scripting in Tcl, Perl, Python all exist for Pidgin
now, do they?  Is the plugin API compatible with the xchat plugin API?
Or do we need to rewrite or find replacements for any and all plugins we
have written or gathered over the years?

I'll deal with it if someone feels there is a good reason for removing
xchat.  But IMO the expected developer cost to leave it alone is low :)

That leaves disk space.  In this thread, I already asked what we are
expecting to add to Lubuntu 11.10 Oneiric that *needs* the disk space
xchat currently occupies... has anyone answered that?

Jonathan

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] 11.04 issues

2011-05-27 Thread Jonathan Marsden
On 05/27/2011 07:16 PM, Tim Bernhard wrote:

 I just noticed that the crashing Keyboard and Mouse/Input Device 
 Prefs app crashes on both of my laptops.  ...
 Anyone else willing to test this?

This is a known bug.

  https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/lxinput/+bug/772749

What we need is someone with time and developer skills to fix it; more
testing is probably not useful at this point.

Jonathan

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Lubuntu 11.10 roadmap proposal

2011-05-26 Thread Jonathan Marsden
Julien,

On 05/26/2011 02:03 AM, Julien Lavergne wrote:

 I'll do it if nobody have comments on it. Thanks :)

  * June 2nd : Alpha 1

My instinct would be to skip the Alpha 1 this cycle.

I'm concerned that this is too soon and won't really be useful -- what
would we gain by having alpha testers spend time testing this, if the
whole build infrastructure change and the GTK3 changes are not present?

I'll defer to your experience in past Lubuntu cycles, but that's really
my only concern with this schedule -- I think we are not far enough
along with development yet to produce an Alpha 1 on June 2 that will be
able to be meaningfully tested.

Jonathan

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Fwd: Which talk engine etc?

2011-05-25 Thread Jonathan Marsden
On 05/25/2011 05:32 AM, Phill Whiteside wrote:

 your thoughts on espeak for lubuntu?

Given lack of spec for what we want to do, if someone is working on
speech output for Lubuntu, using espeak at least as a quick fix seems
reasonable.

BUT this question in itself is cart before the horse symdrome!

First, get a spec for what accessibility we want to see (and have
resources to implement) in Lubuntu 11.10 Oneiric.  *Then* discussion on
what software to use, what integration work needs doing, etc. can start.

If the Ubuntu Accessibility team doesn't have a basic prioritized list
of things to implement so your OS is considered accessible, then, IMO,
we should shelve accessibility features in Lubuntu for this cycle, and
start up a blueprint for accessibility in Lubuntu Prolific Panda (or
whatever it will be named!).

It's not as though we have a surplus of devs standing idle with no work
for them to do in Oneiric :)

Jonathan

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Lubuntu and Accessibility

2011-05-24 Thread Jonathan Marsden
On 05/24/2011 01:17 AM, Yorvyk wrote:

 A 700 MHz PIII Celeron with 256 MiB of PC100 RAM and a 100 MHz drive 
 is quite usable.  A 200 MHZ PIII Celeron and 128 MiB of 66MHz RAM 
 with a 33 MHz drive is dog slow.  If you add a screen reader into
 the mix I think the later set-up would become unusable.

I'm now confused.

(A) I am not used to seeing drive (presumably hard disk drive)
performance being measured in Mhz -- what *is* this?

The common ways to gauge hard drive performance that I know of are:

 * sustained data transfer rate (in MBytes/sec)
 * sustained I/O operations per second (IOPS/sec)

Lower level (and IMO less useful) measures include average seek time,
and rotational latency... those are measured in milliseconds, not MHz.
Conventional hard drives are (generally speaking) never bottlenecked by
their theoretical maximum interface data transfer speed, so this is not
a useful drive performance metric (but *is* sometimes measured in MHz...
so maybe that is what you are using?).

(B) This message seem to imply that accessibility means screen
reader, but there is no specification saying that which Phill has
pointed us to yet.

I suggest that blindness or lack of visual acuity are not the only
things requiring accessibility accommodation in an OS.  They *might* be
the #1 priority for accessibility improvements to Lubuntu -- but without
a clear specification (blueprint), we do not know this!

Jonathan

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[Lubuntu-desktop] gtk-doc for libfm

2011-05-23 Thread Jonathan Marsden
On 05/22/2011 08:43 PM, PCMan wrote:

 Another problem I got in libfm.
 When I tried to add gtk-doc and glib-testing supports to it, some
 errors happened during make.
 Actually I did not know how to correctly use these tools. Help is
 needed in this part.
 An option may be removing gtk-doc support for now since there are no
 usable API docs yet.

I'm very new to GTK programming, but the manual for GTK-Doc at

  http://developer.gnome.org/gtk-doc-manual/

looks reasonably sane.  I can take a look; I'm probably better at
playing with autoconf build infrastructure than at significantly
changing the code  itself, at this point :)

OK, in an Lubuntu 11.04 VM, I did a git pull to update my git repo for
libfm, and then (being paranoid, and just to be really sure to keep my
local git tree clean) I did a git archive, and then unpacked the
archive, and then did a test build inside that tree, with:

  script -c date  sh ./autogen.sh  ./configure --sysconfdir=/etc \
--enable-gtk-doc  make  date ../build-$(date +%F-%H%M%S).log

This configures and makes libfm, with the gtk-doc stuff enabled. (If
this is *not* a sensible way to test build libfm, please correct me!)

The log file contains a lot of warnings about missing documentation of
fields and parameters,  but ignoring those for now (I don't know the
codebase well enough to add them, anyway!):

  grep -v warning: Field descriptions for \
../build-2011-05-22-230624.log | \
grep -v warning: Parameter description for |less +/^gtk-doc:

displays me the output below this email.  I see only one actual error,
in there, the line saying

ERROR: ENUM has no name ./libfm-decl.txt:1080

The rest are all just warnings.

Is that the same error you are seeing?  Just one?  You said some
errors, so I was expecting to find more than that!  I'll look at it
further, but please just give me a quick sanity check that we are
looking at the same issue, first :)

Jonathan

gtk-doc: Building XML
ERROR: ENUM has no name ./libfm-decl.txt:1080
../../../src/base/fm-path.c:238: warning: Parsing comment block file :
parameter expected.
../../../src/gtk/fm-dnd-auto-scroll.c:139: warning: Parsing comment
block file : parameter expected.
../../../src/gtk/fm-dnd-auto-scroll.c:180: warning: Parsing comment
block file : parameter expected.
../../../src/gtk/fm-gtk-utils.c:74: warning: Parsing comment block file
: parameter expected.
../../../src/gtk/fm-gtk-utils.c:92: warning: Parsing comment block file
: parameter expected.
../../../src/gtk/fm-gtk-utils.c:124: warning: Parsing comment block file
: parameter expected.
../../../src/gtk/fm-dnd-dest.c:483: warning: Parsing comment block file
: parameter expected.
../../../src/gtk/fm-dnd-dest.c:484: warning: Parsing comment block file
: parameter expected.
../../../src/gtk/fm-dnd-dest.c:485: warning: Parsing comment block file
: parameter expected.
../../../src/gtk/fm-dnd-dest.c:488: warning: Free-form return value
description in fm_dnd_dest_get_default_action. Use `Returns:' to avoid
ambiguities.
../../../src/job/fm-job.c:40: warning: Section fmjob is not defined in
the libfm-section.txt file.
./libfm-sections.txt:8: warning: No declaration found for
fm_folder_get_for_path.
:0: warning: Value descriptions for FmPlaceType are missing in source
code comment block.
./libfm-sections.txt:627: warning: No declaration found for
fm_places_select.
./libfm-sections.txt:745: warning: No declaration found for
fm_path_entry_set_model.
See libfm-undeclared.txt for the list of undeclared symbols.
./libfm-unused.txt:1: warning: 68 unused declarations.They should be
added to libfm-sections.txt in the appropriate place.
make[4]: Leaving directory
`/home/jonathan/packages/libfm/gitversion/libfm-20110523/docs/reference/libfm'
make[4]: Entering directory
`/home/jonathan/packages/libfm/gitversion/libfm-20110523/docs/reference'
make[4]: Nothing to be done for `all-am'.
make[4]: Leaving directory
`/home/jonathan/packages/libfm/gitversion/libfm-20110523/docs/reference'
make[3]: Leaving directory
`/home/jonathan/packages/libfm/gitversion/libfm-20110523/docs/reference'
make[3]: Entering directory
`/home/jonathan/packages/libfm/gitversion/libfm-20110523/docs'
make[3]: Nothing to be done for `all-am'.
make[3]: Leaving directory
`/home/jonathan/packages/libfm/gitversion/libfm-20110523/docs'
make[2]: Leaving directory
`/home/jonathan/packages/libfm/gitversion/libfm-20110523/docs'
make[2]: Entering directory
`/home/jonathan/packages/libfm/gitversion/libfm-20110523'
make[2]: Leaving directory
`/home/jonathan/packages/libfm/gitversion/libfm-20110523'
make[1]: Leaving directory
`/home/jonathan/packages/libfm/gitversion/libfm-20110523'
Sun May 22 23:07:17 PDT 2011

Script done on Sun 22 May 2011 11:07:17 PM PDT

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Work items and TODOs (LXDE)

2011-05-23 Thread Jonathan Marsden
On 05/23/2011 01:33 PM, Julien Lavergne wrote:

 I'm not aware of any big crasher.

Right click on the Lubuntu 11.04 desktop.  Click Desktop Preferences.
 In Desktop Preferences dialog box, click on the Wallpaper mode field.
 Select Fill with background color only.

Crash!  X disappears, then lxdm shows up, your old session is history.
Worse still, sometimes (maybe one time in ten?  I can't do it repeatedly
or reliably!) lxdm does not come back, and you are left in a text mode
screen with no prompt or other obvious way to proceed.

That probably qualifies as a big crasher, doesn't it? :)

I'm not picky about my wallpaper, but IMO that's a fairly nasty bug.  If
you have any unsaved work in open windows in your session, most likely,
you will lose it.

There is a (possibly related) strange (but less dramatic!) effect if you
select the Wallpaper field instead, and then press Escape.  It sets it
to (none), but closing the dialog does not then do what it should, it
seems to just totally ignore the setting change.

Jonathan

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Lubuntu and Accessibility

2011-05-23 Thread Jonathan Marsden
On 05/23/2011 04:58 PM, Phill Whiteside wrote:

 From a general chat to our head of development on lubuntu, he is of
 the opinion that if the code is really (and I mean really) tight,
 that it would be possible to include within the very tight
 constraints that we are committed to be able to uphold the inclusion
 of accessibility and has agreed that we should really strive to
 attain this.

Whether it is possible depends a lot on what is meant by the inclusion
of accessibility!

Has the relevant champion of this idea (You?  Someone in the Ubuntu
Accessibility team?  Other?) created a blueprint outlining in a fair
amount of detail what exactly they are looking for by way of new
accessibility-related features in Lubuntu 11.10 Oneiric?

Without that, developers are going to be unable to determine whether or
not they might have time/energy/interest/skills to do the work.

In other words, please write a clear specification before asking
developers to implement it :)

Jonathan

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Work items and TODOs (LXDE)

2011-05-22 Thread Jonathan Marsden
On 05/22/2011 04:06 AM, Julien Lavergne wrote:

 Thanks Jonathan :) Don't forget to update the TODO page next time :)

OK... I tend to only remember to update TODO when the job is done, not
when I start working on it!

 http://gitorious.org/lxde-jmarsden/libfm-jmarsden/commit/09b606108146cdc5bfa8167021baf50931edef36
 Not sure it's suitable for upstream. As far as I know,
 x-terminal-emulator is a Debian / Ubuntu stuff.

I wasn't sure, but that's why I did they one patch per commit -- whoever
approves or rejects the commits *will* be sure.

 http://gitorious.org/lxde-jmarsden/libfm-jmarsden/commit/19636195842d26843718bb5900ffea4f8fd28076

 The modifications on .desktop should not be applied, it's generated at
 build time. That's also mean that the patch in the package is wrong :-/ 

OK.  Do we still need some sort of patch to the template, or is the
patch to the .desktop just useless, because it will be overwritten
during build?  Should I make a another commit removing that change to
.desktop ??

 I hope to finish merging patchs from Ubuntu / Debian today, except for
 libfm/pcmanfm (I don't have commit access to the branches).

Great!  Then I won't do any more of these, since you are almost done
with all the rest :)

Once they are all in, is there anything preventing you and pcman from
doing a source tarball release of LXDE -- maybe an rc1 release??  Then
we can package from that and if all looks good, you guy can do a 'real'
new LXDE release?  Are there any automated test tools/test suite for
LXDE, incidentally?

There seem to be some fairly bad segfault type bugs being reported in
some of the lx* tools in Lubuntu 11.04 -- have you looked at any of
them?  How serious are these issues?  Making a preference change should
not cause the preference editor to crash, for example :)

Jonathan

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[Lubuntu-desktop] LXDE plans and priorities

2011-05-22 Thread Jonathan Marsden
On 05/22/2011 08:41 PM, PCMan wrote:

 After this one is finished, I'll try to find some time to fix other
 bugs in the file manager.

 As for other lx-* stuff, I currently don't have enough time to fix
 them. Really glad that you can help.

OK.  Personally, I think that when developer time is really really
limited (which it seems to be!), we should focus on the basics:

(1) Fix all major bugs that are biting our users, and then

(2) Code cleanup needed to ensure it builds and runs with newer
compilers, libraries, etc. (e.g. GTK3 transition, and GCC 4.6 is in
Debian sid already... so we need to check LXDE builds fine there, and
fix it if not).

After that, if we possibly can, we then do

(3) occasional official source tarball releases (maybe every six months?
 or every 12 months if every six is too much work).  This is so that the
work that *is* getting done in (1) and (2), even if fairly small, is
more easily available to users, and to other Linux distributions,
without them having to dive into a git tree.

[From a Ubuntu/Lubuntu perspective, we probably need a new

*Anything* at all more than that, things like new enhancements, test
suite, refactoring code, etc. should be considered a luxury, a *bonus*;
we should not plan for it at all, unless we have the developer time to
do it!

This approach is not much fun for programmers (no new fancy
functionality to design and code!), but IMO it is what allows a project
to stay alive and remain at least somewhat useful to users.  Hopefully,
our doing (1), (2) and (3) consistently and reliably (and well!) will
attract more developers who like LXDE... so we can then do more of the
fun stuff.

Does this make sense?

 3. lxterminal: currently we have no maintainer for it. Previously a
 friend on our mailing list is willing to take over it. So maybe we'll
 have a new maintainer later. Another option can be using Roxterm
 instead.

Given my tendency to sit at the command line a lot, I *might* be able to
take this on, but not yet, and this is not yet a committment, OK!  I am
not much of a GUI/GTK programmer at this point.  But perhaps once
Oneiric is out, I could think more seriously about taking maintainership
of lxterminal on for the longer term.

 These are my current plans. Any suggestions are appreciated.

See above.  I think your plans are fine, but may be ambitious given how
small a team we are.  I would suggest (you probably will not feel good
about this!) that you work on bug fixes even in lx* programs before
adding anything new at all to any of them.  Keeping current LXDE users
at least reasonably happy is #1 priority, if you want the project to
survive.  Users do not like significant bugs.  Sorry if that sounds a
bit negative, but it would be my main suggestion after reading your plans.

Jonathan

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Work items and TODOs

2011-05-21 Thread Jonathan Marsden
On 05/08/2011 02:15 AM, PCMan wrote:

 Seriously, Lubuntu did a lot of fixes to the original LXDE and most of
 them are quite good.
 Can anyone help integrate the fixes with upstream source code?

OK, I started on this today.

I grabbed the current libfm git tree and added six commits, one for each
patch in debian/patches of the Ubuntu libfm package.

I then verified the resulting tree still builds :)

Then, I created a project and git repo on gitorious.org so I can put
this somewhere in public for you to see.

  git://gitorious.org/lxde-jmarsden/libfm-jmarsden.git

If there is a better way for me to contribute to LXDE than this, let me
know.  I can email patches, etc... whatever works for you.

I am also willing to join the LXDE development team and so be able to
commit directly to the git tree, if you want to trust me that much :)

As time allows (my availability varies quite a bit, work and other
commitments can make me very busy sometimes!) I expect to work on
getting some more of the LXDE patches from Ubuntu up into the git tree
(assuming you like these patches!).

Ideally we can then make a new LXDE release, and then get new LXDE
packages into Debian and synced into Ubuntu, all in plenty of time for
the Ubuntu (and Lubuntu) 11.10 Oneiric release.

Jonathan

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Image files

2011-05-18 Thread Jonathan Marsden
On 05/18/2011 09:57 AM, Phill Whiteside wrote:

 Can some one pass me the details for the community 64 Bit 11.04.

https://lists.launchpad.net/lubuntu-desktop/msg03886.html

and

https://lists.launchpad.net/lubuntu-desktop/msg03889.html

and also

https://lists.launchpad.net/lubuntu-desktop/msg03921.html

I think that covers it :)

Jonathan

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] packaging hooks

2011-05-17 Thread Jonathan Marsden
On 05/17/2011 02:39 PM, matthew byers wrote:

 Hey folks, what is the supported method of getting apport hooks 
 packaged? Is the process to do as brian murray suggest and: In the 
 event that you write a hook for a package that you can not *upload*
 or need help getting sponsored, please report a bug about the
 package missing a hook. Then add the hook as a patch (or a merge
 proposal)...

 OR do i just send the hook to say gilir or jmarsden for packaging into
 the appropriate package?  Cheers

You left out another important possibility: open the bug as Brian Murray
suggested, then attach the hook to it, and *then* package the
application to include your new hook, and attach the debdiff to the bug
report.

This could be a very good way to practice your own packaging skills :)

Once that is done, you can of course ask gilir (or jmarsden!) to look at
your work, suggest improvements, etc.  gilir can do even more and
actually approve your newly improved package, of course :)

Jonathan

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] system requirements (workaround created!)

2011-05-15 Thread Jonathan Marsden
On 05/15/2011 11:32 AM, UndiFineD wrote:

 As discussed at uds, put only fital documentation on disc that gets
 people online so they can read it on help.ubuntu.com.

Is all the Sylpheed and Gnumeric help documentation already on
help.ubuntu.com?  Where?

Does the Help menu item in these programs check help,ubuntu.com for that
documentation?  That was not the behaviour I saw when I tested this
earlier (and fixed LP bugs by adding these packages).

There will always be some trade-off between keep it lean and
user-friendly.  I think that where to draw that boundary is not as
clear as your comment suggests.  I hope the UDS discussion on this was a
little more nuanced than you are suggesting :)

If you are willing to patch Sylpheed and Gnumeric packages to get their
docs online from help.ubuntu.com when the help is not installed locally,
and add to add all that documentation to the wiki, *and* you will keep
it up to date there for the long term, *then* we might be in a position
to remove the documentation packages from the CD.

Jonathan

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] system requirements (workaround created!)

2011-05-15 Thread Jonathan Marsden
Earlier, I wrote:

 I suspect the number could be lowered to around 9 for a
 1.8GB size check, but I have not tested that yet.

On 05/15/2011 12:44 AM, Mikhail Maksimov wrote:

 No it can not. Tests done on alpha3 show that the system requires at
  least 2000 MB (decimal M) just to install with almost no free 
 space left. Too bad Lubuntu is no longer lightweight in terms of
 disk footprint.

Thanks for taking the time to do the testing :)

If I understand you correctly, Lubuntu 11.04 default install would
(just!) fit on a 2GB (binary GB) disk.  That's pretty lightweight; can
you name any common desktop or laptop i386 PC architecture machines
made in the the last ten years for general end user use (i.e. not
embedded designs) that have less than 2GB of disk storage?

Setting the limit down from 5.3GB to 2.7GB seems to have helped everyone
I know of who has come across this issue (most seem to have 3GB or 4GB
disk space available).

Is there really a sizeable community of Lubuntu users with total disk
space between 1.8GB and 2.0GB that we need to try to help out?  If so,
who are they -- can they please identify themselves?

Thanks,

Jonathan

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] [lubuntu-desktop] amd64 build of Lubuntu.

2011-05-12 Thread Jonathan Marsden
On Thu, 12 May 2011 Kendall Weaver kend...@peppermintos.com wrote:

 Thanks for the feedback. It's interesting to see the differences between the
 way things are done here at Lubuntu versus other projects I maintain or
 contribute to (in addition to Peppermint, I also build the Linux Mint LXDE
 and Fluxbox editions). At Peppermint, all testing and developer
 collaboration is very locked down ...

While it can have its downside too, I like the be open/public, don't
make a big distinction between those with commit privs and those without
them, make decisions in public view approach.  It is also the approach
recommended by Karl Fogel's book Producing Free Software
http://producingoss.com , at least as I understand/intrepret what Karl
says.  Worth reading :)

 It really is kind of crazy how quickly this was leaked. Do know that this
 was not my intention, I just wanted to do something nice for you guys.

Oh, sure!  I didn't see the appearance of your ISO as a negative event,
but it may mean that if we do release an official Lubuntu 11.04 amd64
ISO at some stage, finding out whether users have that one, or yours,
when doing support, may be a minor challenge (although see below re.
your volume id!)

 I guess it's kind of a habit to go ahead and set labels. Setting this stuff
 is usually the first thing I do when putting together an .iso file. I've
 seen far too many official images that have been mislabeled in my life so
 I usually just go ahead and set this up without thinking much about it.

If the script does the labelling, it is much harder to get wrong than
if a human has to remember to change it each time by hand, see below :)

I'm not sure how the real Ubuntu image creation setup handles this; I suspect
I'll get to know it fairly deeply in a few weeks time!

I want to be able to use that infrastructure to create and publish
daily or weekly ISO images as we progress through Alpha and Beta for
11.10.  It is already set up for doing that.  In contrast, that high a
frequency of image updating is probably beyond the patience of most
humans, even if they are as comfortable and experienced with
hand-creating ISOs as you seem to be :)

 On that note, signing .iso files is a rather
 fantastic idea and I'll consider this in Peppermint and will bring it up to
 Clem at Linux Mint and see what he says.

Go for it... our script does something like

  IMAGE_NAME=Lubuntu ${release} $(date -u +%Y%m%d) - ${arch}
  ISOFILE=lubuntu-${release}-$(date -u +%Y%m%d)-${arch}.iso
  sudo mkisofs -r -V $IMAGE_NAME -cache-inodes -J -l \
-b isolinux/isolinux.bin -c isolinux/boot.cat \
-no-emul-boot -boot-load-size 4 -boot-info-table \
--publisher Lubuntu Packaging Team \
--volset Ubuntu Linux http://www.ubuntu.com; \
-p ${DEBFULLNAME:-$USER} ${DEBEMAIL:-on host $(hostname --fqdn)} \
-A $IMAGE_NAME \
-m filesystem.squashfs \
-o ../$ISOFILE .

at the moment.  ISO images have many fields in them for info on
the publisher, application, etc., in the ISO filesystem header -- so we
might as well fill some of them in!  Your image seems to be leaving all
of Volume set id, Data preparer id, and Publisher id empty, and using
the default (an ad for genisoimage!) in the application id.

If you don't want to remember all the option switches, you can create a
~/.genisoimagerc file with a set of strings that will become your new
defaults -- that might suit your style of ISO creation better than the
lengthy command above :)

 If I were in your shoes I would go ahead and take a bit of time to address
 the current build script. Causality is very important in my opinion and
 regardless of the potential future obsolescence of the script, moving
 forward with that knowledge strikes me as more sound than moving forward
 without it.

Agreed in principle; my time for all this is not infinite though :)

 As long as each component is correct and in the
 correct location, then I don't see why it matters how each one got there.

Repeatability, ease of automated daily builds, etc. are the main
pluses I can see that are difficult for humans to match.  At least in
theory, with a script you only make a mistake once; thereafter you fix
the script, and that particular mistake will not happen again :)

 ..., it's been rather obvious that the demand for a well put together
 Ubuntu based 64 bit LXDE distro has been there for a while.

Agreed, although I'm a little puzzled by it; generally speaking 64bit
addressing doesn't get you anything useful until you have 4GB or more
of RAM, and most 64bit PC CPUs are multicore; run on that level of PC
hardware, the extra overhead of GNOME or Xfce is really not all that
noticeable/bad, IMO.  I'm not discouraging 64bit Lubuntu at all, once we
have an official one, I'm likely to run it on my own main development
PC, ... *but* I'm not really sure why there is so much interest in a
64bit LXDE-based distro.  Are there really a lot of slow, old, low-RAM
64bit PCs out there that people feel a need to run a 

Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] amd64 build of Lubuntu.

2011-05-11 Thread Jonathan Marsden
Kendall,

Thanks for doing this, as you will see from your web server log, an
amd64 Lubuntu is something quote a few people are interested in :)

On 05/11/2011 03:33 PM, Kendall Weaver wrote:

 Yeah, as with all things of this nature it needs to be run through
 the gauntlet a time or two before any decisions about distribution
 are made. If there are issues that I missed, then I need to get them
 situated before this is released to the public.

I know this suggestion is arriving a bit late, but next time, please
don't label your unofficial image:

#define DISKNAME  Lubuntu 11.04 Natty Narwhal - Release amd64

since it is not an official Lubuntu 11.04 image!  Preferably, don't name
the resulting .iso file something that looks to casual observers as
though it is an official ISO, either :)

Putting your name or initials somewhere in that DISKNAME string, and in
the ISO filename, would really have helped in this regard.  Perhaps also
in the -p and -A options to mkisofs?  Even in modified boot menus.

Our current build script automatically puts the name and email address
of whoever builds the ISO into the image, so we can tell who created any
give ISO the script creates (well, unless someone deliberately fakes it,
by setting the relevant environment variables, I suppose!).

FWIW, I may take your image and see if I can use parts of it to figure
out exactly what needs changing in our current Lubuntu build script, so
it can (at last!) build (working) amd64 ISO images...

However, we are (after some productive UDS sessions!) very close to (a
few weeks away from) to being able to use the same ISO build
infrastructure that the other Ubuntu's use, which will make such work
totally unnecessary... that's slightly demotivating to me regarding
spending time on our current ISO build script -- its life is coming to
an end :)

Just my opinion: I think Lubuntu ISO images that require hand-building
are probably not a wise move for anything long term or even
semi-official; starting down that path usually wastes scarce volunteer
techie time, IMO.  Computers are good at repetitive tasks... so let's
automate them when possible, and let the computers do them, freeing us
humans for the creative stuff that computers are bad at!

Jonathan

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Uninstalled package asks for updates in updatemanager

2011-05-09 Thread Jonathan Marsden
On Mon, 09 May 2011 08:32:50 -0700 Lee Gold leeg...@operamail.com wrote:

 Sorry for the delay. Also, in case you don't believe me I've included a
 screen shot of the update manager showing the request for Apache
 updates, but I don't know if the image attachment will be scrubbed or
 not...Thanks! 

Cut and paste is fine... but looking at this list:

 The following packages will be upgraded:
libjson-glib-1.0-0 (0.10.2-2ubuntu2 = 0.10.2-2ubuntu2.1)
libperl5.10 (5.10.1-12ubuntu2 = 5.10.1-12ubuntu2.1)
perl (5.10.1-12ubuntu2 = 5.10.1-12ubuntu2.1)
perl-base (5.10.1-12ubuntu2 = 5.10.1-12ubuntu2.1)
perl-modules (5.10.1-12ubuntu2 = 5.10.1-12ubuntu2.1)
php5 (5.3.3-1ubuntu9.3 = 5.3.3-1ubuntu9.5)
php5-cgi (5.3.3-1ubuntu9.3 = 5.3.3-1ubuntu9.5)
php5-cli (5.3.3-1ubuntu9.3 = 5.3.3-1ubuntu9.5)
php5-common (5.3.3-1ubuntu9.3 = 5.3.3-1ubuntu9.5)
php5-gd (5.3.3-1ubuntu9.3 = 5.3.3-1ubuntu9.5)
php5-mysql (5.3.3-1ubuntu9.3 = 5.3.3-1ubuntu9.5)
xdg-utils (1.0.2+cvs20100307-1ubuntu0.2 = 1.0.2+cvs20100307-1ubuntu0.3)

I do not see the word apache anywhere!  So none of those packages that
it is trying to update seem to me to be apache.  and I suspect all of
them are in fact currently installed on your system, so what makes you
say that this is an uninstalled package asking for updates?

Which of these 12 packages do you think are apache, or which do you
think are currently uninstalled on your machine, and why?

Jonathan

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Work items and TODOs

2011-05-08 Thread Jonathan Marsden
On 05/06/2011 02:53 AM, Julien Lavergne wrote:

 https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Lubuntu/Developers/TODO

 Let me know if it's usable for everyone.

Works for me.  I fixed a pile of the bitesized bugs already :)

Jonathan

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