Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Creating An Accessibility Specification for Lubuntu 11.10
Perhaps there is a misunderstanding here. Ubuntu Accessibility does not, in fact, set up any roadmap for any distribution except Ubuntu. Xubuntu, Kubuntu, Mythbuntu, Edubuntu, etc, all set their own roadmaps for the distribution they develope. They do not rely on any other team exept their own to decide what they will do in a cycle. -- Charlie Kravetz Linux Registered User Number 425914 [http://counter.li.org/] Never let anyone steal your DREAM. [http://keepingdreams.com] No, it means each distribution makes its own accessibility roadmap, since we don't know what each distribution developers are capable of during a cycle. Kubuntu, for example, will have accessible installations and screen-reader this cycle. Xubuntu has not decided on its plans yet. Each variant is in fact a separate distribution, even if we all use the same repositories. -- Charlie Kravetz Linux Registered User Number 425914 [http://counter.li.org/] Never let anyone steal your DREAM. [http://keepingdreams.com] -- What I think is going wrong is difference in jargon. When the Lubuntu devs/people asked for a roadmap is what the Accessibility people would see as an priority list. When the Lubuntu people have their priority list, then they can create their own roadmap. As the Lubuntu devs are very motivated to get accepted as being an official derivative, they also want to get to some of the levels Ubuntu has achieved so far at least. Just to proof their worth. That's why they asked for a roadmap and current position of Ubuntu. But I think now that the situation has been cleared, I think a priority list would fill the gap of what the Lubuntu people are looking for. Then they can argue among themselves what would be a realistic roadmap. With metta, Chris Druif ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop Post to : lubuntu-desktop@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Creating An Accessibility Specification for Lubuntu 11.10
On 05/30/2011 12:19 AM, Chris wrote: What I think is going wrong is difference in jargon. When the Lubuntu devs/people asked for a roadmap is what the Accessibility people would see as an priority list. When the Lubuntu people have their priority list, then they can create their own roadmap. That sounds fine to me :) My current background assumption is that Lubuntu is late to the accessibility party, just as it is late to officialness, and that the other (already official) Ubuntu variants are, therefore, already substantially further along this particular path than we currently are in Lubuntu. So that we can better discover what needs to be done within Lubuntu, and in what order, I would like to know, with some reasonable degree of clarity and specificity: (A) What are the expectations of those seeking adding accessibility to Lubuntu, and what is the relative priority of each such expectation? (B) How do these expectations compare to what is already implemented in each of the other Ubuntu variants, and in Debian? (C) How do these expectations compare to what each of the other Ubuntu variants plans to do in the current (Oneiric) development cycle? Links to current information on what Debian and each Ubuntu variant has done, and plans to do, in this regard would therefore be useful. Lower priority, but still very useful, would be to also know: (D) How can we know when we have got there -- how can we verify that Lubuntu (or LXDE, or an application within Lubuntu) has attained a particular desired level or standard of accessibility? (I'm aware of http://www.w3.org/WAI/ for web site accessibility -- what are the application or OS or DE equivalents used in the Debian/Ubuntu community?). At this point, I *really* don't mind what anyone calls this documentation (specifications, blueprints, roadmaps, priority lists, other?). I also do not mind who created it (the Ubuntu accessibility team, or development teams within each Ubuntu variant, or even sabdfl himself!). My immediate concern is to determine whether such current documentation actually exists at all, and if it does, preferably some idea of its current level of acceptance or officialness (because great documentation that everyone else is ignoring may be less helpful than mediocre documentation that everyone else has already agreed to follow and implement!). And, very fundamentally: if this documentation does exist, where can we read it? Everything I have found so far seems either not actually a priority list/roadmap, not really Ubuntu-specific, or old and out of date. So perhaps my Google skills are lacking in this (accessibility) domain, and I need a little more help finding the real thing. If these requests and questions are unreasonable, or expose a total misunderstanding of the situation on my part, so be it, please enlighten me further :) Perhaps the most useful thing I have found so far is http://developer.gnome.org/accessibility-devel-guide/3.0/accessibility-devel-guide.html -- which is GNOME documentation, not Debian or Ubuntu documentation, and Lubuntu does not use GNOME. If, in the end, all of this boils down to as a first major useful step, please just add orca and espeak and their dependencies to the Lubuntu CD... that would be good to know :) Jonathan ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop Post to : lubuntu-desktop@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Creating An Accessibility Specification for Lubuntu 11.10
Hiyas everyone, I am proposing a slightly different path. @accessibility: We're going to consider things. Our commitment to accessibillity is not diminished, just our way of interacting. @lubuntu:Please consider what I have proposed. Regards, Phill. On Mon, May 30, 2011 at 8:53 PM, Jonathan Marsden jmars...@fastmail.fmwrote: On 05/30/2011 12:19 AM, Chris wrote: What I think is going wrong is difference in jargon. When the Lubuntu devs/people asked for a roadmap is what the Accessibility people would see as an priority list. When the Lubuntu people have their priority list, then they can create their own roadmap. That sounds fine to me :) My current background assumption is that Lubuntu is late to the accessibility party, just as it is late to officialness, and that the other (already official) Ubuntu variants are, therefore, already substantially further along this particular path than we currently are in Lubuntu. So that we can better discover what needs to be done within Lubuntu, and in what order, I would like to know, with some reasonable degree of clarity and specificity: (A) What are the expectations of those seeking adding accessibility to Lubuntu, and what is the relative priority of each such expectation? (B) How do these expectations compare to what is already implemented in each of the other Ubuntu variants, and in Debian? (C) How do these expectations compare to what each of the other Ubuntu variants plans to do in the current (Oneiric) development cycle? Links to current information on what Debian and each Ubuntu variant has done, and plans to do, in this regard would therefore be useful. Lower priority, but still very useful, would be to also know: (D) How can we know when we have got there -- how can we verify that Lubuntu (or LXDE, or an application within Lubuntu) has attained a particular desired level or standard of accessibility? (I'm aware of http://www.w3.org/WAI/ for web site accessibility -- what are the application or OS or DE equivalents used in the Debian/Ubuntu community?). At this point, I *really* don't mind what anyone calls this documentation (specifications, blueprints, roadmaps, priority lists, other?). I also do not mind who created it (the Ubuntu accessibility team, or development teams within each Ubuntu variant, or even sabdfl himself!). My immediate concern is to determine whether such current documentation actually exists at all, and if it does, preferably some idea of its current level of acceptance or officialness (because great documentation that everyone else is ignoring may be less helpful than mediocre documentation that everyone else has already agreed to follow and implement!). And, very fundamentally: if this documentation does exist, where can we read it? Everything I have found so far seems either not actually a priority list/roadmap, not really Ubuntu-specific, or old and out of date. So perhaps my Google skills are lacking in this (accessibility) domain, and I need a little more help finding the real thing. If these requests and questions are unreasonable, or expose a total misunderstanding of the situation on my part, so be it, please enlighten me further :) Perhaps the most useful thing I have found so far is http://developer.gnome.org/accessibility-devel-guide/3.0/accessibility-devel-guide.html -- which is GNOME documentation, not Debian or Ubuntu documentation, and Lubuntu does not use GNOME. If, in the end, all of this boils down to as a first major useful step, please just add orca and espeak and their dependencies to the Lubuntu CD... that would be good to know :) Jonathan ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop Post to : lubuntu-desktop@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp -- https://wiki.ubuntu.com/phillw ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop Post to : lubuntu-desktop@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Creating An Accessibility Specification for Lubuntu 11.10
On 05/27/2011 09:26 AM, Pia wrote: ..., but in open source, if you have a very small group represented, you have to get your hands dirty first in order to sufficiently understand the situation well enough to come up with good system specifications and a reasonable roadmap in a reasonable time frame. So, what we were doing in discussing details and wanting to actually test a few things was just that and what you originally were complaining about. Assessing the situation would allow us to know what we can take from Ubuntu's road map and what has to be adjusted. How about sharing Ubuntu's current official accessibility roadmap with the Lubuntu developers, as a start? I note that https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/Links does not seem to me to include a pointer to it, at least not by any name recognizably similar to Ubuntu Accessibility Roadmap, which seems an unfortunate omission. Point us towards it, please, and tell us how far along each current Ubuntu variant (Ubuntu, Kubuntu, Xubuntu, and Server) is in implementing it, if that is not clear from reading the roadmap itself or related documents to which it links. Then, we can perhaps be a part of the process of assessing the situation, determining what we can take from Ubuntu's accessibility roadmap in creating the Lubuntu equivalent of it. My suspicion is that LXDE itself could need a fair bit of work to use the GTK accessibility stuff well enough to be useful -- but that's a total guess, in part because I've not seen a Ubuntu-oriented definition of doing accessibility well enough to be useful yet. I suspect that if you and Alan and Phill and Charlie and whoever else create a roadmap for Lubuntu accessibility separate from the Lubuntu developers, it may not be well accepted by them when it is finally presented to them. Better, surely, to include them (us) in that process, from the beginning? Reading https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-dev/+members#active will show you that Lubuntu officially currently has exactly two (2) developers! Both of them have asked, independently and in different ways, on the lubuntu-desktop list, for some kind of definition of what exactly we are trying to do to add accessibility this cycle. If wanting some clarity means not getting it, then I'd say you are 100% correct, by that definition I don't get it yet! As for specifications and clear definitions etc. being overly formal and so unacceptable to you, blueprints and UDS discussion and refinement thereof are a standard and expected part of every Ubuntu development cycle, for every Ubuntu variant, as I hope you are aware. Lubuntu is not an exception in this regard. Nor is accessibility. I have not suggested anything different happen for work on accessibility than happens for other software development work on Lubuntu. First, decide what work will be done; then, do that work. Trying to locate the Ubuntu Accessibility Roadmap that you seem to suggest already exists somewhere, I just now did a Google search for ubuntu accessibility roadmap and found no clearly definitive document for the Oneiric cycle in the first couple of pages of hits. Can you provide pointers to the documentation I have missed? From this search, I did find my way to: https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-community/+spec/ubuntutheproject-community-n-improving-accessibility-devel-and-info which suggests that perhaps this kind of info is not in fact yet available, but is perhaps being worked on this cycle, since many parts of that spec say postponed -- presumably postponed until Oneiric? If so, my proposal that we wait one cycle (note: not indefinitely, one development cycle!) before commencing Lubuntu accessibility development work fits it rather well, doesn't it -- once the spec linked above is fully completed, Lubuntu will (I would think) then have easier access to the baseline documentation and information needed to make good decisions about what to implement to improve its accessibility in the 12.04 cycle. I also found https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/Team/Goals which says these are potential goals; so not really a clearly defined roadmap, at this stage, then. Then I found https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/Specs which has links to some specs dating back to Feisty (!), and specs for Natty that may or may not have actually been implemented (it doesn't say), and links to docs that it says must be updated. No clarity on Oneiric accessibility status or a roadmap there. Last edit was around 7 months ago -- a whole development cycle ago. Maybe everyone knows where the current official and widely accepted Ubuntu Accessibility Roadmap really is, but Julien and I currently do not, or we would not be asking for a clear statement of what adding accessibility is going to take, for Lubuntu. Please work with us to create such a definition, since it apparently does not yet exist. Or, point us directly to it, if it does already exist. I remain convinced
Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Creating An Accessibility Specification for Lubuntu 11.10
On 05/29/2011 12:03 PM, Alan Bell wrote: How about sharing Ubuntu's current official accessibility roadmap with the Lubuntu developers, as a start? ... not a roadmap as such, but I have started drafting a document on the Ubuntu infrastructure for accessibility http://pad.ubuntu.com/AccessibilityInfrastructure Does this mean that, in reality, there is no accessiblity roadmap, for any Ubuntu variant? Thanks. I made a few minor edits. A wiki would be better so there is a clear history of who edited what when, etc. This will get transferred to the wiki at some point when it is nearly complete and the most glaring errors have been fixed. I'd suggest just putting what you have into a wiki page, now, so that history will be maintained as the document is changed. What this lacks at this point is any sense of priorities -- *this* is more important to do first, *that* can wait, etc., or any sense of to make a Qt app more easily accessible, to *this*; to make a GTK app more accessible, do *that*; to create an accessible installer, do *this other thing*. So it is currently useful as background info, but not in suggesting what to do next. Also, links to the various things (software, APIs, etc.) that it mentions would be a great addition. I don't know much about Lubuntu, only that it is based on something called LXDE as a window manager and is targeted at really old computers. Well, or some people just like a leaner faster desktop environment. I'm surprised to see how many Lubuntu users actually choose use it on hardware that would support Ubuntu or Kubuntu. Looking at lubuntu.net it seems to be based on GTK, so I imagine just installing gnome-orca will pull in speech dispatcher at-spi2 and espeak, install onboard and you have an on-screen keyboard too. Does it use ubiquity for the installer? Yes, but alternative installer(s) are something we want to see as we move to using real Ubuntu ISO build infrastructure. Jonathan ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop Post to : lubuntu-desktop@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
