Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Fw: Dropping i386 non-PAE as a supported kernel flavour in Precise Pangolin
Am 10.01.2012 01:25, schrieb Josh Embrey: Maybe it's just me, but the most elegant solution is as follows: Make one final non-PAE version and then just let it float until the end of the lifetime. Support it, but don't upgrade the kernel or any packages that rely on the kernel. Then, whenever anyone needs to download a version that works on non-PAE versions, they just download Lubuntu-Non-PAE-final.iso (or whaterver). Hi Josh, i dont think its a good idea to provide a package which does not get (security) updates. specially if it is the linux-kernel. Greetings Michael Supported doesn't always mean that every aspect is in development and useful. Only the key aspects that define the OS. ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop Post to : lubuntu-desktop@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop Post to : lubuntu-desktop@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Fw: Dropping i386 non-PAE as a supported kernel flavour in Precise Pangolin
It was just an idea, given the fact that the lubuntu dev team has no real dedicated kernel dev that can tackle the project. Speaking from experience, as an avid linux user, I'll generally get the latest project that'll work for whatever I need to get done or I'll find another project. As I'm not always happy to switch distros, I'll actually go back and use one that functions and just control the upgrades manually. Regarding security, it seems that the change will only effect a small number of older laptops (I've tested the new kernel builds on two that are about 5-10 years in age and found both still worked), it reduces the likelihood of those kernels being exploited except by random chance. Again, from my experience, linux kernels that get compromised are often directly targeted and not broad-spectrum attacks. Just my two cents, though. ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop Post to : lubuntu-desktop@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Fw: Dropping i386 non-PAE as a supported kernel flavour in Precise Pangolin
On 11/20/2011 4:20 PM, Jonathan Marsden wrote: Other than the early 400MHz Pentium-M, which are pretty rare, I don't think anyone has seen such a CPU yet. I've got a laptop with a 1.4Ghz Celeron-M that, according to /proc/cpuinfo, does not support PAE. That doesn't seem that old to me. Ben ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop Post to : lubuntu-desktop@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Fw: Dropping i386 non-PAE as a supported kernel flavour in Precise Pangolin
Maybe it's just me, but the most elegant solution is as follows: Make one final non-PAE version and then just let it float until the end of the lifetime. Support it, but don't upgrade the kernel or any packages that rely on the kernel. Then, whenever anyone needs to download a version that works on non-PAE versions, they just download Lubuntu-Non-PAE-final.iso (or whaterver). Supported doesn't always mean that every aspect is in development and useful. Only the key aspects that define the OS. ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop Post to : lubuntu-desktop@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Fw: Dropping i386 non-PAE as a supported kernel flavour in Precise Pangolin
On pe, 2012-01-06 at 16:19 -0500, Steven wrote: I think it's also not how many people are using non-pae cpus, but whether or not Lubuntu is expected to be able to run on non-pae cpus. For example, I would expect Lubuntu to run on the 400MHz FSB Pentium M CPUs [2] (only the 400MHz FSB models don't support PAE [3]); in fact, I'd even argue that those CPUs are part of the intended audience. And no matter how many users there are, based off of a QA perspective, if I say that Lubuntu is designed for a particular kind of machine, it better be able to run on that machine, plain and simple. Also, the non-pae kernel is still supported in Precise. All we'd have to do is change the default kernel on i386. -Steven I decided to give a shot to Lubuntu 12.04 on my testing laptop, Thinkpad T42 with 1.7GHz Pentium M, no dice. So I take my earlier reply back as this machine is from ~2003 or something and not even from the 90's. http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/Intel_Pentium_M_(Dothan) From that list it is easy to see models from Thinkpad lines, and those are really used around the globe. That technically rises the ammount of users affected. But now I'm out to enjoy -14C winter weather with a hint of Sun shining, happy new year from me too ;) ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop Post to : lubuntu-desktop@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Fw: Dropping i386 non-PAE as a supported kernel flavour in Precise Pangolin
Hi (my first post to a Lubuntu Maillinglist), I also had one minor problem with the PAE kernel. I'm running Lubuntu mainly in VMs (because it is faster than the heavier Ubuntu). When installing Lubuntu Precise in Virtualbox I had to turn on PAE support in the options (this was not a dealbreaker). But, when installing Virtualbox Guest Additions in Lubuntu Precise, the headers of the PAE kernel where missing so that the Guest Additions could not be installed. I recommend to include the PAE kernel headers in the base install so that some non advanced users can also install the Guest Additions easily. Marvin 2012/1/6 Steven sten...@gmail.com On Fri, Jan 6, 2012 at 2:45 AM, Jared Norris jrnor...@gmail.com wrote: On 6 January 2012 17:10, Steven sten...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, I'm running Lubuntu on a non-PAE kernel too :) 1.4GHz Pentium M in a Dell Latitude D505 with 512MB RAM from 2004. It's my main production machine and runs Lubuntu like a charm. I've been reading through the emails and irc logs, and it sounds like the kernel team is maintaining the non-pae kernel in Precise (but not beyond), but just not setting it as the default -- any chance someone can convince them to make the non-pae kernel the default in just Lubuntu? Colin Watson mentioned this as a possibility in the Technical Board meeting [1]. -Steven [1]: http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-12-12-21.01.moin.txt On Sun, Nov 20, 2011 at 5:31 PM, Yorvyk yorvik.ubu...@googlemail.com wrote: Steven, Running a PAE kernel and capable of running a PAE kernel are a couple of different things. I'd honestly be surpised if that CPU wasn't capable of running a PAE kernel. Are you able to run the command grep pae /proc/cpuinfo to see if it is capable of running a PAE kernel? If you get any output please paste it back if you're not sure what it means. -- Regards, Jared Norris JP(Qual) BBehSc(Psych) https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JaredNorris That command doesn't give any output: $ grep pae /proc/cpuinfo $ It was also apparent when I ran a Lubuntu Precise daily-live CD for the first time the other day and got this: This kernel requires the following features not present on the CPU: pae Unable to boot - please use a kernel appropriate for your CPU. -Steven ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop Post to : lubuntu-desktop@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop Post to : lubuntu-desktop@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Fw: Dropping i386 non-PAE as a supported kernel flavour in Precise Pangolin
On 6 January 2012 19:17, Steven sten...@gmail.com wrote: That command doesn't give any output: $ grep pae /proc/cpuinfo $ It was also apparent when I ran a Lubuntu Precise daily-live CD for the first time the other day and got this: This kernel requires the following features not present on the CPU: pae Unable to boot - please use a kernel appropriate for your CPU. -Steven Wow, I stand corrected. I have a VERY similar CPU here in my Dell laptop that is around the same vintage that is PAE supported. This does suggest the problem is more widespread than originally thought as this is pretty much the target market for Lubuntu, older laptops. -- Regards, Jared Norris JP(Qual) BBehSc(Psych) https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JaredNorris ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop Post to : lubuntu-desktop@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Fw: Dropping i386 non-PAE as a supported kernel flavour in Precise Pangolin
Hi, I went through the whole thread (37 emails so far) and noticed very simple thing that I already have noticed long time ago (I know what most of you will say) which is: we do *NOT *have accurate database of Lubuntu Users in general and those who are still using OLD machines and I mean VERY old here. I like such kind of discussion and I tend to agree with some opinions and disagree with others but after all, this is very healthy activity (discussion) but ... as always ... the real question is: isn't it pointless to discuss such thing without REAL figures? some guys already pointed that out, I guess. Long story short, my simple and humble opinion is: we need a group of people who do a survey to obtain such figures. No, I have no smart ideas of HOWTO do that but if we could discuss about this, that would be VERY helpful. Perhaps we are wasting our time here and there are only 2-3 users with such old machines? for me, Lubuntu 10.04 didn't work on this: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1590614 while Mint LXDE 9 did. Both may be using the same kernel but I'm not really sure why Lubuntu didn't work. Also, perhaps they are many users that will be affected with that drop? so we need some figures. Just a thought I'd like to share with all, as usual :) Thanks! On Fri, Jan 6, 2012 at 1:44 PM, Marvin Reimer therealm...@googlemail.comwrote: Hi (my first post to a Lubuntu Maillinglist), I also had one minor problem with the PAE kernel. I'm running Lubuntu mainly in VMs (because it is faster than the heavier Ubuntu). When installing Lubuntu Precise in Virtualbox I had to turn on PAE support in the options (this was not a dealbreaker). But, when installing Virtualbox Guest Additions in Lubuntu Precise, the headers of the PAE kernel where missing so that the Guest Additions could not be installed. I recommend to include the PAE kernel headers in the base install so that some non advanced users can also install the Guest Additions easily. Marvin 2012/1/6 Steven sten...@gmail.com On Fri, Jan 6, 2012 at 2:45 AM, Jared Norris jrnor...@gmail.com wrote: On 6 January 2012 17:10, Steven sten...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, I'm running Lubuntu on a non-PAE kernel too :) 1.4GHz Pentium M in a Dell Latitude D505 with 512MB RAM from 2004. It's my main production machine and runs Lubuntu like a charm. I've been reading through the emails and irc logs, and it sounds like the kernel team is maintaining the non-pae kernel in Precise (but not beyond), but just not setting it as the default -- any chance someone can convince them to make the non-pae kernel the default in just Lubuntu? Colin Watson mentioned this as a possibility in the Technical Board meeting [1]. -Steven [1]: http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-12-12-21.01.moin.txt On Sun, Nov 20, 2011 at 5:31 PM, Yorvyk yorvik.ubu...@googlemail.com wrote: Steven, Running a PAE kernel and capable of running a PAE kernel are a couple of different things. I'd honestly be surpised if that CPU wasn't capable of running a PAE kernel. Are you able to run the command grep pae /proc/cpuinfo to see if it is capable of running a PAE kernel? If you get any output please paste it back if you're not sure what it means. -- Regards, Jared Norris JP(Qual) BBehSc(Psych) https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JaredNorris That command doesn't give any output: $ grep pae /proc/cpuinfo $ It was also apparent when I ran a Lubuntu Precise daily-live CD for the first time the other day and got this: This kernel requires the following features not present on the CPU: pae Unable to boot - please use a kernel appropriate for your CPU. -Steven ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop Post to : lubuntu-desktop@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop Post to : lubuntu-desktop@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp -- Best Regards, *amjjawad* Lubuntu One Stop Thread (Mega Thread)http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1844755 My Wiki Page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/amjjawad | My Launchpadhttps://launchpad.net/%7Eamjjawad | My Ubuntu Forum Profile http://ubuntuforums.org/member.php?u=941822 *My Actions Speak Louder Than My Words ||** ** I walk by faith, not by sight **|| Imagination is more important than Knowledge || **Keep It Simple and Short* ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop Post to : lubuntu-desktop@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Fw: Dropping i386 non-PAE as a supported kernel flavour in Precise Pangolin
On 6 January 2012 19:57, amjjawad HOOHAA amjja...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, I went through the whole thread (37 emails so far) and noticed very simple thing that I already have noticed long time ago (I know what most of you will say) which is: we do NOT have accurate database of Lubuntu Users in general and those who are still using OLD machines and I mean VERY old here. I like such kind of discussion and I tend to agree with some opinions and disagree with others but after all, this is very healthy activity (discussion) but ... as always ... the real question is: isn't it pointless to discuss such thing without REAL figures? some guys already pointed that out, I guess. Long story short, my simple and humble opinion is: we need a group of people who do a survey to obtain such figures. No, I have no smart ideas of HOWTO do that but if we could discuss about this, that would be VERY helpful. Perhaps we are wasting our time here and there are only 2-3 users with such old machines? for me, Lubuntu 10.04 didn't work on this: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1590614 while Mint LXDE 9 did. Both may be using the same kernel but I'm not really sure why Lubuntu didn't work. Also, perhaps they are many users that will be affected with that drop? so we need some figures. Just a thought I'd like to share with all, as usual :) Thanks! Yeah it's been put forward as an idea before but again, without an accurate way to get the information the straw poll we're conducting here is just as valid as an online survey because this is essentially an online survey. -- Regards, Jared Norris JP(Qual) BBehSc(Psych) https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JaredNorris ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop Post to : lubuntu-desktop@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Fw: Dropping i386 non-PAE as a supported kernel flavour in Precise Pangolin
On Fri, Jan 6, 2012 at 4:57 AM, amjjawad HOOHAA amjja...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, I went through the whole thread (37 emails so far) and noticed very simple thing that I already have noticed long time ago (I know what most of you will say) which is: we do *NOT *have accurate database of Lubuntu Users in general and those who are still using OLD machines and I mean VERY old here. I like such kind of discussion and I tend to agree with some opinions and disagree with others but after all, this is very healthy activity (discussion) but ... as always ... the real question is: isn't it pointless to discuss such thing without REAL figures? some guys already pointed that out, I guess. Long story short, my simple and humble opinion is: we need a group of people who do a survey to obtain such figures. No, I have no smart ideas of HOWTO do that but if we could discuss about this, that would be VERY helpful. Perhaps we are wasting our time here and there are only 2-3 users with such old machines? for me, Lubuntu 10.04 didn't work on this: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1590614 while Mint LXDE 9 did. Both may be using the same kernel but I'm not really sure why Lubuntu didn't work. Also, perhaps they are many users that will be affected with that drop? so we need some figures. Just a thought I'd like to share with all, as usual :) Thanks! The problem with a survey is that it will never be representative, since it is opt-in, and even more unrepresentative based off of where it's publicized (i.e. a poll of lubuntu-desktop subscribers won't get you all of the non-pae cpu users). The only fool-proof way of getting this data is to automatically submit it from users' computers, but that's a privacy issue, and still limits to internet users and those who do package upgrades regularly (assuming the submission method results from a package upgrade). I can offer you this though [1]: 21:35:54 kees so, as for data, with bdmurray's help, I downloaded 7271 x86 cpuinfos from bug reports on LP about a year ago. 336 of those were non-pae. http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~cpu-checker-dev/cpu-checker/trunk/files/head:/test/ 21:36:12 kees so that's just under 5% I think it's also not how many people are using non-pae cpus, but whether or not Lubuntu is expected to be able to run on non-pae cpus. For example, I would expect Lubuntu to run on the 400MHz FSB Pentium M CPUs [2] (only the 400MHz FSB models don't support PAE [3]); in fact, I'd even argue that those CPUs are part of the intended audience. And no matter how many users there are, based off of a QA perspective, if I say that Lubuntu is designed for a particular kind of machine, it better be able to run on that machine, plain and simple. Also, the non-pae kernel is still supported in Precise. All we'd have to do is change the default kernel on i386. -Steven [1]: http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-12-12-21.01.moin.txt [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Intel_Pentium_M_microprocessors [3]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_Address_Extension ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop Post to : lubuntu-desktop@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Fw: Dropping i386 non-PAE as a supported kernel flavour in Precise Pangolin
Hi, I'm running Lubuntu on a non-PAE kernel too :) 1.4GHz Pentium M in a Dell Latitude D505 with 512MB RAM from 2004. It's my main production machine and runs Lubuntu like a charm. I've been reading through the emails and irc logs, and it sounds like the kernel team is maintaining the non-pae kernel in Precise (but not beyond), but just not setting it as the default -- any chance someone can convince them to make the non-pae kernel the default in just Lubuntu? Colin Watson mentioned this as a possibility in the Technical Board meeting [1]. -Steven [1]: http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-12-12-21.01.moin.txt On Sun, Nov 20, 2011 at 5:31 PM, Yorvyk yorvik.ubu...@googlemail.comwrote: On Sun, 20 Nov 2011 13:20:35 -0800 Jonathan Marsden jmars...@fastmail.fm wrote: On 11/20/2011 07:29 AM, Chow Loong Jin wrote: On 20/11/2011 19:31, Yorvyk wrote: If a CPU can't support PAE it can't support more than 4GiB of RAM, so the PAE part of the kernel shoudn't come into play. From what I understand, PAE has a different set of paging structures compared to non-PAE. Does the kernel know to fall back onto non-PAE mode if it cannot enable PAE on a CPU? Which way to do things is basically a compile time option for the kernel, as I understand it. So, if a PAE kernel is used, it can *only* be run on processors that support the additional PAE instructions. Even if a machine only has 128MB RAM, it you try to run a PAE kernel on it, and the CPU lacks the PAE instruction, it is not going to run. The real question is: are there really any CPUs in general purpose desktops or laptops, in any significant quantity at all, that Ubuntu 11.10 i386 kernels work on, which PAE kernels do not work on? Other than the early 400MHz Pentium-M, which are pretty rare, I don't think anyone has seen such a CPU yet. Via C3 and AMD Geode LX already cannot run current Ubuntu 11.10 default kernels anyway. Having trawled the net for info on this, I have no problem with dropping the non-PAE kernel as it appears to only effect a very,very, very small number of users. Whether these are current or potential users is going to be very hard to find out, unless they start jumping up-and-down screaming. My one concern was the alleged overhead of the PAE kernel but, this appears, from the various benchmarks I've seen, to be trivial and probably unnoticeable in normal use. I have installed PAE kernels on a couple of machines, one oneiric and one precise, and have not noticed any problems so far. I would imagine by the time 12.04 is no longer supported, 32 bit ubuntus may well be limited to the ARM anyway. -- Yorvyk ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop Post to : lubuntu-desktop@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop Post to : lubuntu-desktop@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Fw: Dropping i386 non-PAE as a supported kernel flavour in Precise Pangolin
On 20/11/2011 19:31, Yorvyk wrote: If a CPU can't support PAE it can't support more than 4GiB of RAM, so the PAE part of the kernel shoudn't come into play. From what I understand, PAE has a different set of paging structures compared to non-PAE. Does the kernel know to fall back onto non-PAE mode if it cannot enable PAE on a CPU? -- Kind regards, Loong Jin signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop Post to : lubuntu-desktop@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Fw: Dropping i386 non-PAE as a supported kernel flavour in Precise Pangolin
On 11/20/2011 07:29 AM, Chow Loong Jin wrote: On 20/11/2011 19:31, Yorvyk wrote: If a CPU can't support PAE it can't support more than 4GiB of RAM, so the PAE part of the kernel shoudn't come into play. From what I understand, PAE has a different set of paging structures compared to non-PAE. Does the kernel know to fall back onto non-PAE mode if it cannot enable PAE on a CPU? Which way to do things is basically a compile time option for the kernel, as I understand it. So, if a PAE kernel is used, it can *only* be run on processors that support the additional PAE instructions. Even if a machine only has 128MB RAM, it you try to run a PAE kernel on it, and the CPU lacks the PAE instruction, it is not going to run. The real question is: are there really any CPUs in general purpose desktops or laptops, in any significant quantity at all, that Ubuntu 11.10 i386 kernels work on, which PAE kernels do not work on? Other than the early 400MHz Pentium-M, which are pretty rare, I don't think anyone has seen such a CPU yet. Via C3 and AMD Geode LX already cannot run current Ubuntu 11.10 default kernels anyway. Jonathan ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop Post to : lubuntu-desktop@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Fw: Dropping i386 non-PAE as a supported kernel flavour in Precise Pangolin
On Sun, 20 Nov 2011 13:20:35 -0800 Jonathan Marsden jmars...@fastmail.fm wrote: On 11/20/2011 07:29 AM, Chow Loong Jin wrote: On 20/11/2011 19:31, Yorvyk wrote: If a CPU can't support PAE it can't support more than 4GiB of RAM, so the PAE part of the kernel shoudn't come into play. From what I understand, PAE has a different set of paging structures compared to non-PAE. Does the kernel know to fall back onto non-PAE mode if it cannot enable PAE on a CPU? Which way to do things is basically a compile time option for the kernel, as I understand it. So, if a PAE kernel is used, it can *only* be run on processors that support the additional PAE instructions. Even if a machine only has 128MB RAM, it you try to run a PAE kernel on it, and the CPU lacks the PAE instruction, it is not going to run. The real question is: are there really any CPUs in general purpose desktops or laptops, in any significant quantity at all, that Ubuntu 11.10 i386 kernels work on, which PAE kernels do not work on? Other than the early 400MHz Pentium-M, which are pretty rare, I don't think anyone has seen such a CPU yet. Via C3 and AMD Geode LX already cannot run current Ubuntu 11.10 default kernels anyway. Having trawled the net for info on this, I have no problem with dropping the non-PAE kernel as it appears to only effect a very,very, very small number of users. Whether these are current or potential users is going to be very hard to find out, unless they start jumping up-and-down screaming. My one concern was the alleged overhead of the PAE kernel but, this appears, from the various benchmarks I've seen, to be trivial and probably unnoticeable in normal use. I have installed PAE kernels on a couple of machines, one oneiric and one precise, and have not noticed any problems so far. I would imagine by the time 12.04 is no longer supported, 32 bit ubuntus may well be limited to the ARM anyway. -- Yorvyk ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop Post to : lubuntu-desktop@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Fw: Dropping i386 non-PAE as a supported kernel flavour in Precise Pangolin
Question-probably naive, but anyway- why don't we keep an 'old kernel' package for those with older CPUs? I don't see that it would need maintenance-that's just what it is-dead weight for those who need really old machnes to work. Tell me if I'm wrong. But I vote to ditch PAE with th default kernel. Maybe have two kernels in the defult iso and some hardware detection in the installer to install the right kernel? (IDK if that's possible) On Fri, 18 Nov 2011 22:15:52 -0800 Jonathan Marsden jmars...@fastmail.fm wrote: On 11/18/2011 11:50 AM, Jean-Pierre Vidal Piesset wrote: Last year they dropped support for a lot of machines, now they will drop for a lot more? A lot? How did you determine this, and can you let us know the numeric upper and lower bounds of a lot in the second phrase of this description? :) Jonathan ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop Post to : lubuntu-desktop@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp -- Michael Rawson michaelrawso...@gmail.com ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop Post to : lubuntu-desktop@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Fw: Dropping i386 non-PAE as a supported kernel flavour in Precise Pangolin
And while we examine the fluff in our belly buttons. Can I ask once again that instead of grieving over non-pae chipsets that we instead allow our meager resources to keep 10.04 alive? This removes the issue of non-pae completely and just needs a simple edit to the wiki about the dropping of previous chipsets? As 10.04 was based on a LTS kernel for servers it has a life span of 5 years. We can then re address the problem in 2015 :) Having said that, some people are quite happy with 8.04 and see no need to upgrade - If it isn't broken don't fix it. Regards, Phill. On 19 November 2011 10:02, Michael Rawson michaelrawso...@gmail.com wrote: Question-probably naive, but anyway- why don't we keep an 'old kernel' package for those with older CPUs? I don't see that it would need maintenance-that's just what it is-dead weight for those who need really old machnes to work. Tell me if I'm wrong. But I vote to ditch PAE with th default kernel. Maybe have two kernels in the defult iso and some hardware detection in the installer to install the right kernel? (IDK if that's possible) On Fri, 18 Nov 2011 22:15:52 -0800 Jonathan Marsden jmars...@fastmail.fm wrote: On 11/18/2011 11:50 AM, Jean-Pierre Vidal Piesset wrote: Last year they dropped support for a lot of machines, now they will drop for a lot more? A lot? How did you determine this, and can you let us know the numeric upper and lower bounds of a lot in the second phrase of this description? :) Jonathan ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop Post to : lubuntu-desktop@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp -- Michael Rawson michaelrawso...@gmail.com ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop Post to : lubuntu-desktop@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop Post to : lubuntu-desktop@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Fw: Dropping i386 non-PAE as a supported kernel flavour in Precise Pangolin
*As 10.04 was based on a LTS kernel for servers it has a life span of 5 years. We can then re address the problem in 2015 :)* * * If we cannot solve this now, I agree to re address the problem. But if we can find the solution on the next days, it is better. *Maybe have two kernels in the defult iso and some hardware detection in the installer to install the right kernel?* If this is possible, we can use the 10.04 kernel and never worry about this kind of problem anymore. =] att, Gabriel Salles ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop Post to : lubuntu-desktop@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Fw: Dropping i386 non-PAE as a supported kernel flavour in Precise Pangolin
I would like to do some tests with the latest ubuntu on my old amd-k6 (wich runs Lubuntu 10.04 perfectly) but support for that CPU it's been dropped :( Then again, it's NOT only for the people who have a voice here: it's the users that have one of those pc wich want to use it and CAN'T It's a shame that an OS intended for old hardware can't run on hardware that can run it :( EVEN if it's 5% of the target machines... 5% of a huge number is still a huge number. Plus, there's no modern OS that can run there... OK, *maybe* some very oldl machines should be renewed... but there are people without the capability of doing so. AND i don't understand, the code is there... what's the benefit of cutting it? Just what i think about dropping support of any hardware. -- jpxsat ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop Post to : lubuntu-desktop@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Fw: Dropping i386 non-PAE as a supported kernel flavour in Precise Pangolin
I really cant see why you're all (except dear JM ;) crying after obsolete hardware. If this kind of decissions are never made, People will never recycle these power hungry computers with more decent ones. What I've been keeping eye on Ubuntu, it has lost support for older hardware around 9.04. If you really want to have support for older computers, you could check another distro. Something Slackware based for example. SalixOS ain't a bad option. They have i486 kernel, you can choose from LXDE, Fluxbox, XFCE4 and Ratpoison. Slapt-get is not that far from apt-get. I dont want to sound harsh, but sometimes people should just let go with old hardware. Old x86 hardware is not a gem in a collection, it's just a soulless piece of computer techonology, unlike C-64's, Amiga's and Atari's, and some other machines like any SGI. And companies are now in here ditching the first generation Core 2 Duo machines, anything below that is hazardous waste. I'm wondering why people keeps those Pentium II's and Celerons hanging around. Computing can't be fun with slow machines. You can buy Intel Atom boards for almost free, those will pay itself back in electricity bill (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_CPU_power_dissipation). http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?LH_BIN=1LH_PrefLoc=2_trkparms=65%253A15%257C66%253A2%257C39%253A1rt=nc_nkw=intel+atom_sc=1_sticky=1_trksid=p3286.c0.m14_sop=12_sc=1 On Sat, 19 Nov 2011 10:38:18 -0400 Jean-Pierre Vidal Piesset jpx...@gmail.com wrote: I would like to do some tests with the latest ubuntu on my old amd-k6 (wich runs Lubuntu 10.04 perfectly) but support for that CPU it's been dropped :( Then again, it's NOT only for the people who have a voice here: it's the users that have one of those pc wich want to use it and CAN'T It's a shame that an OS intended for old hardware can't run on hardware that can run it :( EVEN if it's 5% of the target machines... 5% of a huge number is still a huge number. Plus, there's no modern OS that can run there... OK, *maybe* some very oldl machines should be renewed... but there are people without the capability of doing so. AND i don't understand, the code is there... what's the benefit of cutting it? Just what i think about dropping support of any hardware. -- jpxsat ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop Post to : lubuntu-desktop@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Fw: Dropping i386 non-PAE as a supported kernel flavour in Precise Pangolin
On 20 November 2011 00:38, Jean-Pierre Vidal Piesset jpx...@gmail.com wrote: I would like to do some tests with the latest ubuntu on my old amd-k6 (wich runs Lubuntu 10.04 perfectly) but support for that CPU it's been dropped :( Then again, it's NOT only for the people who have a voice here: it's the users that have one of those pc wich want to use it and CAN'T It's a shame that an OS intended for old hardware can't run on hardware that can run it :( EVEN if it's 5% of the target machines... 5% of a huge number is still a huge number. Plus, there's no modern OS that can run there... OK, *maybe* some very oldl machines should be renewed... but there are people without the capability of doing so. AND i don't understand, the code is there... what's the benefit of cutting it? Just what i think about dropping support of any hardware. -- jpxsat ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop Post to : lubuntu-desktop@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp This is what we're trying to work out, how many people actually have and use hardware that will be affected. So far you are the only one reporting the fact that it won't work on your hardware. If anyone else can run the command listed earlier in the thread and let us know if there is no output we can gauge if it is going to be 5% or if it's going to be 0.005%. -- Regards, Jared Norris JP(Qual) BBehSc(Psych) https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JaredNorris ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop Post to : lubuntu-desktop@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Fw: Dropping i386 non-PAE as a supported kernel flavour in Precise Pangolin
On Sat, 19 Nov 2011 01:25:16 +0800 PCMan pcman...@gmail.com wrote: Is it possible to keep an unofficial kernel for old abandoned cpus in lubuntu ppa, if there are people willing to maintain it? No, it's too complex to properly maintain a kernel. Regards, Julien Lavergne ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop Post to : lubuntu-desktop@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Fw: Dropping i386 non-PAE as a supported kernel flavour in Precise Pangolin
On Fri, 18 Nov 2011 15:10:12 -0800 Jonathan Marsden jmars...@fastmail.fm wrote: *If* this proposed change makes it impractical to run on a Pentium II, we need to stand up and be counted. If (as I suspect) it only prevents use on Pentium I, really old AMD, VIA C3 and Geode, then ... that's a much smaller population of still-working computers, and I suggest we let it slide. It's the point. Even the kernel team was not able to determine the range of hardware affected. If we can confirm that it's only this CPU (which, I think, was already dropped for 10.10), no need to fight. Regards, Julien Lavergne -- Julien Lavergne gi...@ubuntu.com ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop Post to : lubuntu-desktop@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Fw: Dropping i386 non-PAE as a supported kernel flavour in Precise Pangolin
On Sat, 19 Nov 2011 11:43:32 +1000 Jared Norris jrnor...@gmail.com wrote: So to this end, my question is, is there a simple command people can run to see if their CPU can run PAE kernels? I would have thought if cat /proc/cpuinfo | grep pae would not give any output if the CPUs weren't capable? I'm not an expert so just wanting to confirm. That way, instead of just complaining we can request users run this, see if they will be affected and report back. We can then generate a team stance and report back to the Ubuntu developers with some real data. That's sound like a good plan, to be able to gather more information. I hope this support will not be dropped for 12.04, it will give us some time, until 12.10 when they will ask the same question for this support ... Regards, Julien Lavergne -- Julien Lavergne gi...@ubuntu.com ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop Post to : lubuntu-desktop@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Fw: Dropping i386 non-PAE as a supported kernel flavour in Precise Pangolin
On Fri, 18 Nov 2011 21:47:19 -0800 Jonathan Marsden jmars...@fastmail.fm wrote: We already told the community we would support Lubuntu 10.04 as an LTS, so we should keep that commitment (though I don't think we are doing a very good job of it, to be honest!). But we made a commitment, so we should do what we can to honour it. That is not in question here. Correction, we told the community that we will try to keep 10.04 up-to-date as long as we can, eventually like a LTS. And yes, so far, it's not very good. Regards, Julien Lavergne ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop Post to : lubuntu-desktop@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
[Lubuntu-desktop] Fw: Dropping i386 non-PAE as a supported kernel flavour in Precise Pangolin
I forgot to forward this mail from ubuntu-devel, it may have an impact on Lubuntu since we shared the same kernel. Regards, Julien Lavergne Begin forwarded message: Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2011 14:43:28 -0700 From: Tim Gardner tim.gard...@canonical.com To: Ubuntu Kernel Team kernel-t...@lists.ubuntu.com, ubuntu-de...@lists.ubuntu.com Subject: Dropping i386 non-PAE as a supported kernel flavour in Precise Pangolin Per discussion at UDS the kernel team is proposing to drop the non-PAE i386 flavour. The upgrade path for non-PAE users will be the PAE kernel. Those CPUs that do not have i686 and PAE support will be orphaned. To the best of my knowledge, these include Intel CPUs prior to Pentium II, 400Mhz Pentium M, VIA C3, and Geode LX. As far as I know, there are no laptop or desktop class CPUs being produced that do not meet these minimum requirements. Before I do something that is difficult to revert, I would like to hear from the development community why we should continue to maintain a kernel flavour that is (in my opinion) getting increasingly low utilization. It is my feeling that an extremely high percentage of users of the non-PAE kernel have a CPU that is PAE capable. If there is sufficient community demand (and support), I would be willing to sponsor the first non-PAE kernel upload to Universe. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Specs/PreciseKernelConfigReview We'll be conducting a similar survey for powerpc. rtg P.S. For those of you that are totally confused by this email, PAE (Physical Address Extension) was an addition to 32 bit x86 CPUs that allowed them to address more then 4GB physical memory. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_Address_Extension -- Tim Gardner tim.gard...@canonical.com -- ubuntu-devel mailing list ubuntu-de...@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel -- Julien Lavergne gi...@ubuntu.com ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop Post to : lubuntu-desktop@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Fw: Dropping i386 non-PAE as a supported kernel flavour in Precise Pangolin
But there're Lubuntu users on Pentium II and similar machines. In fact they're happy an OS can handle those trashy computers and make them useable. Will this affect those users? http://lubuntublog.blogspot.com/ http://www.lubuntu.net/ 2011/11/18 Julien Lavergne gi...@ubuntu.com I forgot to forward this mail from ubuntu-devel, it may have an impact on Lubuntu since we shared the same kernel. Regards, Julien Lavergne Begin forwarded message: Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2011 14:43:28 -0700 From: Tim Gardner tim.gard...@canonical.com To: Ubuntu Kernel Team kernel-t...@lists.ubuntu.com, ubuntu-de...@lists.ubuntu.com Subject: Dropping i386 non-PAE as a supported kernel flavour in Precise Pangolin Per discussion at UDS the kernel team is proposing to drop the non-PAE i386 flavour. The upgrade path for non-PAE users will be the PAE kernel. Those CPUs that do not have i686 and PAE support will be orphaned. To the best of my knowledge, these include Intel CPUs prior to Pentium II, 400Mhz Pentium M, VIA C3, and Geode LX. As far as I know, there are no laptop or desktop class CPUs being produced that do not meet these minimum requirements. Before I do something that is difficult to revert, I would like to hear from the development community why we should continue to maintain a kernel flavour that is (in my opinion) getting increasingly low utilization. It is my feeling that an extremely high percentage of users of the non-PAE kernel have a CPU that is PAE capable. If there is sufficient community demand (and support), I would be willing to sponsor the first non-PAE kernel upload to Universe. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Specs/PreciseKernelConfigReview We'll be conducting a similar survey for powerpc. rtg P.S. For those of you that are totally confused by this email, PAE (Physical Address Extension) was an addition to 32 bit x86 CPUs that allowed them to address more then 4GB physical memory. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_Address_Extension -- Tim Gardner tim.gard...@canonical.com -- ubuntu-devel mailing list ubuntu-de...@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel -- Julien Lavergne gi...@ubuntu.com ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop Post to : lubuntu-desktop@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp b2.pngb3.pngb1.png___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop Post to : lubuntu-desktop@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Fw: Dropping i386 non-PAE as a supported kernel flavour in Precise Pangolin
Yes it will affect Pentium II. Do we have options of compiling the kernel within lubuntu to continue support. 2011/11/18 神癒礁湖 (Rafael Laguna) rafaellag...@gmail.com But there're Lubuntu users on Pentium II and similar machines. In fact they're happy an OS can handle those trashy computers and make them useable. Will this affect those users? http://lubuntublog.blogspot.com/ http://www.lubuntu.net/ 2011/11/18 Julien Lavergne gi...@ubuntu.com I forgot to forward this mail from ubuntu-devel, it may have an impact on Lubuntu since we shared the same kernel. Regards, Julien Lavergne Begin forwarded message: Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2011 14:43:28 -0700 From: Tim Gardner tim.gard...@canonical.com To: Ubuntu Kernel Team kernel-t...@lists.ubuntu.com, ubuntu-de...@lists.ubuntu.com Subject: Dropping i386 non-PAE as a supported kernel flavour in Precise Pangolin Per discussion at UDS the kernel team is proposing to drop the non-PAE i386 flavour. The upgrade path for non-PAE users will be the PAE kernel. Those CPUs that do not have i686 and PAE support will be orphaned. To the best of my knowledge, these include Intel CPUs prior to Pentium II, 400Mhz Pentium M, VIA C3, and Geode LX. As far as I know, there are no laptop or desktop class CPUs being produced that do not meet these minimum requirements. Before I do something that is difficult to revert, I would like to hear from the development community why we should continue to maintain a kernel flavour that is (in my opinion) getting increasingly low utilization. It is my feeling that an extremely high percentage of users of the non-PAE kernel have a CPU that is PAE capable. If there is sufficient community demand (and support), I would be willing to sponsor the first non-PAE kernel upload to Universe. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Specs/PreciseKernelConfigReview We'll be conducting a similar survey for powerpc. rtg P.S. For those of you that are totally confused by this email, PAE (Physical Address Extension) was an addition to 32 bit x86 CPUs that allowed them to address more then 4GB physical memory. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_Address_Extension -- Tim Gardner tim.gard...@canonical.com -- ubuntu-devel mailing list ubuntu-de...@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel -- Julien Lavergne gi...@ubuntu.com ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop Post to : lubuntu-desktop@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop Post to : lubuntu-desktop@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp -- God Bless ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop Post to : lubuntu-desktop@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Fw: Dropping i386 non-PAE as a supported kernel flavour in Precise Pangolin
No, we have to rely on kernel in the repositories. Regards, Julien Lavergne On Fri, 18 Nov 2011 19:43:45 +0300 Matthew Byers faintstlsa...@gmail.com wrote: Yes it will affect Pentium II. Do we have options of compiling the kernel within lubuntu to continue support. 2011/11/18 神癒礁湖 (Rafael Laguna) rafaellag...@gmail.com But there're Lubuntu users on Pentium II and similar machines. In fact they're happy an OS can handle those trashy computers and make them useable. Will this affect those users? http://lubuntublog.blogspot.com/ http://www.lubuntu.net/ 2011/11/18 Julien Lavergne gi...@ubuntu.com I forgot to forward this mail from ubuntu-devel, it may have an impact on Lubuntu since we shared the same kernel. Regards, Julien Lavergne Begin forwarded message: Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2011 14:43:28 -0700 From: Tim Gardner tim.gard...@canonical.com To: Ubuntu Kernel Team kernel-t...@lists.ubuntu.com, ubuntu-de...@lists.ubuntu.com Subject: Dropping i386 non-PAE as a supported kernel flavour in Precise Pangolin Per discussion at UDS the kernel team is proposing to drop the non-PAE i386 flavour. The upgrade path for non-PAE users will be the PAE kernel. Those CPUs that do not have i686 and PAE support will be orphaned. To the best of my knowledge, these include Intel CPUs prior to Pentium II, 400Mhz Pentium M, VIA C3, and Geode LX. As far as I know, there are no laptop or desktop class CPUs being produced that do not meet these minimum requirements. Before I do something that is difficult to revert, I would like to hear from the development community why we should continue to maintain a kernel flavour that is (in my opinion) getting increasingly low utilization. It is my feeling that an extremely high percentage of users of the non-PAE kernel have a CPU that is PAE capable. If there is sufficient community demand (and support), I would be willing to sponsor the first non-PAE kernel upload to Universe. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Specs/PreciseKernelConfigReview We'll be conducting a similar survey for powerpc. rtg P.S. For those of you that are totally confused by this email, PAE (Physical Address Extension) was an addition to 32 bit x86 CPUs that allowed them to address more then 4GB physical memory. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_Address_Extension -- Tim Gardner tim.gard...@canonical.com -- ubuntu-devel mailing list ubuntu-de...@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel -- Julien Lavergne gi...@ubuntu.com ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop Post to : lubuntu-desktop@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop Post to : lubuntu-desktop@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp -- God Bless -- Julien Lavergne gi...@ubuntu.com ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop Post to : lubuntu-desktop@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Fw: Dropping i386 non-PAE as a supported kernel flavour in Precise Pangolin
I think this harks back to how long we will support 10.04 for, we barely have enough people to backport to that - asking for a 2nd set of backporting may well be beyond the small number of devs we have. For me, with dropping of chipsets after 10.04, maybe we could concentrate on keeping 10.04 alive? If it were actually an LTS they could expect support until 2015, the kernel should be updated until then, but someone like Jmarsden would have to agree to issue periodic updates. JMarsden did issue a 10.04.1 release but there was little reply in terms of getting it tested. As to hosting any iso's, I remain committed to hosting the 'older' iso's for Lubuntu that were pre-adoption by Canonical stage on my server area. Regards, Phill. On 18 November 2011 17:25, PCMan pcman...@gmail.com wrote: Is it possible to keep an unofficial kernel for old abandoned cpus in lubuntu ppa, if there are people willing to maintain it? On Sat, Nov 19, 2011 at 1:18 AM, Julien Lavergne gi...@ubuntu.com wrote: No, it means that the CPus need to have support for PAE, it's independent of the memory. Also, the range of hardware affected is not so clear, see the thread on ubuntu-devel. I already answered that depending of the list of hardware affected, it could be a big support drop for Lubuntu. Regards, Julien Lavergne On Fri, 18 Nov 2011 16:44:20 + Michael Rawson michaelrawso...@gmail.com wrote: If I understand right, this will only affect those on said machines IF they have ~4GB RAM. Which is unlikely, considering they have Pentium IIs. But I agree, we should keep the old kernels for a bit longer. But then we throw a dilemma, where we don't get new kernels. Unless you want a kernel developer for Lubuntu. On Fri, 18 Nov 2011 17:39:02 +0100 神癒礁湖 (Rafael Laguna) rafaellag...@gmail.com wrote: But there're Lubuntu users on Pentium II and similar machines. In fact they're happy an OS can handle those trashy computers and make them useable. Will this affect those users? http://lubuntublog.blogspot.com/ http://www.lubuntu.net/ 2011/11/18 Julien Lavergne gi...@ubuntu.com I forgot to forward this mail from ubuntu-devel, it may have an impact on Lubuntu since we shared the same kernel. Regards, Julien Lavergne Begin forwarded message: Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2011 14:43:28 -0700 From: Tim Gardner tim.gard...@canonical.com To: Ubuntu Kernel Team kernel-t...@lists.ubuntu.com, ubuntu-de...@lists.ubuntu.com Subject: Dropping i386 non-PAE as a supported kernel flavour in Precise Pangolin Per discussion at UDS the kernel team is proposing to drop the non-PAE i386 flavour. The upgrade path for non-PAE users will be the PAE kernel. Those CPUs that do not have i686 and PAE support will be orphaned. To the best of my knowledge, these include Intel CPUs prior to Pentium II, 400Mhz Pentium M, VIA C3, and Geode LX. As far as I know, there are no laptop or desktop class CPUs being produced that do not meet these minimum requirements. Before I do something that is difficult to revert, I would like to hear from the development community why we should continue to maintain a kernel flavour that is (in my opinion) getting increasingly low utilization. It is my feeling that an extremely high percentage of users of the non-PAE kernel have a CPU that is PAE capable. If there is sufficient community demand (and support), I would be willing to sponsor the first non-PAE kernel upload to Universe. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Specs/PreciseKernelConfigReview We'll be conducting a similar survey for powerpc. rtg P.S. For those of you that are totally confused by this email, PAE (Physical Address Extension) was an addition to 32 bit x86 CPUs that allowed them to address more then 4GB physical memory. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_Address_Extension -- Tim Gardner tim.gard...@canonical.com -- ubuntu-devel mailing list ubuntu-de...@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel -- Julien Lavergne gi...@ubuntu.com ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop Post to : lubuntu-desktop@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp -- Michael Rawson michaelrawso...@gmail.com ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop Post to : lubuntu-desktop@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp -- Julien Lavergne gi...@ubuntu.com ___ Mailing
Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Fw: Dropping i386 non-PAE as a supported kernel flavour in Precise Pangolin
Last year they dropped support for a lot of machines, now they will drop for a lot more? What are the exact benefits of dropping all of that? Lubuntu is aimed to be fast, but it's able to resurrect those old hardware so: what will be the the future for those old machines in the near future? Support for those machines is NOT a waste of space or code, since Lubuntu can handle them :) -- jpxsat ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop Post to : lubuntu-desktop@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Fw: Dropping i386 non-PAE as a supported kernel flavour in Precise Pangolin
On Friday, November 18, 2011 7:43 PM, Matthew Byers faintstlsa...@gmail.com wrote: Yes it will affect Pentium II. Evidence, please? That is not what the original email said at all. It is also not what all the info I have on which CPUs can do PAE says. As far as I know, Pentium Pro and Pentium II CPUs all can do PAE, except for some 400MHz Pentium M mobile CPUs. As I understand the email, and based on by fading memory of which CPUs do PAE, requiring PAE will only exclude Pentium I, a few 400MHz Pentium M, really old AMD chips, and the less known alternatives such as the Geode and the VIA C3. All normal Pentium II processors should handle PAE just fine. It looks like wikipedia agrees with this (not that it is always 100% accurate, but still, it's an easy to find online source). Do you have info (or real world experience) that indicates otherwise? *If* this proposed change makes it impractical to run on a Pentium II, we need to stand up and be counted. If (as I suspect) it only prevents use on Pentium I, really old AMD, VIA C3 and Geode, then ... that's a much smaller population of still-working computers, and I suggest we let it slide. Jonathan -- Jonathan Marsden jmars...@fastmail.fm ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop Post to : lubuntu-desktop@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Fw: Dropping i386 non-PAE as a supported kernel flavour in Precise Pangolin
Correct me if I'm wrong, but those CPUs were used with 2, 4 and 8 GB of HD?? *If* this proposed change makes it impractical to run on a Pentium II, we need to stand up and be counted. If (as I suspect) it only prevents use on Pentium I, really old AMD, VIA C3 and Geode, then ... that's a much smaller population of still-working computers, and I suggest we let it slide. Jonathan ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop Post to : lubuntu-desktop@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Fw: Dropping i386 non-PAE as a supported kernel flavour in Precise Pangolin
There comes a point where hardware becomes obsolete. Ubuntu itself is not aiming to be for low end machines and for a desktop is that is trying to hit the more cutting edge market last decades equipment is a waste of resources. I can understand why they're cutting it. As time goes on support for old systems will be dropped. But also, time turns new systems into old systems. For the people still using a pentium, it really is time for a new computer. The Pentium came out in 93 and the Pentium Just in 97. They had good runs. On Nov 18, 2011 7:46 PM, Phill Whiteside phi...@vpolink.com wrote: Hiyas JM, So there is no need to support the dropping of chip sets at 10.04, and none of at the next release? If Lubuntu cannot support old hardware, as julien has argued pleaded about What is the point of Lubuntu? Have a think of that question. It is one I have been asked many times, and is it exactly things like this that let me say me say This is the point... regards, Phill. On Fri, Nov 18, 2011 at 11:10 PM, Jonathan Marsden jmars...@fastmail.fm wrote: On Friday, November 18, 2011 7:43 PM, Matthew Byers faintstlsa...@gmail.com wrote: Yes it will affect Pentium II. Evidence, please? That is not what the original email said at all. It is also not what all the info I have on which CPUs can do PAE says. As far as I know, Pentium Pro and Pentium II CPUs all can do PAE, except for some 400MHz Pentium M mobile CPUs. As I understand the email, and based on by fading memory of which CPUs do PAE, requiring PAE will only exclude Pentium I, a few 400MHz Pentium M, really old AMD chips, and the less known alternatives such as the Geode and the VIA C3. All normal Pentium II processors should handle PAE just fine. It looks like wikipedia agrees with this (not that it is always 100% accurate, but still, it's an easy to find online source). Do you have info (or real world experience) that indicates otherwise? *If* this proposed change makes it impractical to run on a Pentium II, we need to stand up and be counted. If (as I suspect) it only prevents use on Pentium I, really old AMD, VIA C3 and Geode, then ... that's a much smaller population of still-working computers, and I suggest we let it slide. Jonathan -- Jonathan Marsden jmars...@fastmail.fm ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop Post to : lubuntu-desktop@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp -- https://wiki.ubuntu.com/phillw ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop Post to : lubuntu-desktop@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop Post to : lubuntu-desktop@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Fw: Dropping i386 non-PAE as a supported kernel flavour in Precise Pangolin
I guess the point ends up simply being lxde Ubuntu. That is fine for a guy like myself because Lubuntu is awsome on my modern laptops, but I can see how it deviates from the original mission. nbsp; I feel bad for you guys. Maybe official status isn't what's best for Lubuntu OR maybe you guys need to do a side project/distro? (I know, you need more devs.) Tim -- Sent from my Palm Pre On Nov 18, 2011 7:48 PM, Phill Whiteside lt;phi...@vpolink.comgt; wrote: Hiyas JM, So there is no need to support the dropping of chip sets at 10.04, and none of at the next release? If nbsp;Lubuntu cannot support old hardware, as julien has argued amp; pleaded about nbsp;What is the point of Lubuntu?nbsp; Have a think of that question. It is one I have been asked many times, and is it exactly things like this that let me say me say This is the point...nbsp; regards, Phill. On Fri, Nov 18, 2011 at 11:10 PM, Jonathan Marsden lt;jmars...@fastmail.fmgt; wrote: On Friday, November 18, 2011 7:43 PM, Matthew Byers lt;faintstlsa...@gmail.comgt; wrote: gt; Yes it will affect Pentium II. Evidence, please? nbsp;That is not what the original email said at all. nbsp;It is also not what all the info I have on which CPUs can do PAE says. As far as I know, Pentium Pro and Pentium II CPUs all can do PAE, except for some 400MHz Pentium M mobile CPUs. As I understand the email, and based on by fading memory of which CPUs do PAE, requiring PAE will only exclude Pentium I, a few 400MHz Pentium M, really old AMD chips, and the less known alternatives such as the Geode and the VIA C3. All normal Pentium II processors should handle PAE just fine. nbsp;It looks like wikipedia agrees with this (not that it is always 100% accurate, but still, it's an easy to find online source). Do you have info (or real world experience) that indicates otherwise? *If* this proposed change makes it impractical to run on a Pentium II, we need to stand up and be counted. nbsp;If (as I suspect) it only prevents use on Pentium I, really old AMD, VIA C3 and Geode, then ... that's a much smaller population of still-working computers, and I suggest we let it slide. Jonathan -- nbsp;Jonathan Marsden nbsp;jmars...@fastmail.fm ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop Post to nbsp; nbsp; : lubuntu-desktop@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop More help nbsp; : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp -- https://wiki.ubuntu.com/phillw ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop Post to : lubuntu-desktop@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Fw: Dropping i386 non-PAE as a supported kernel flavour in Precise Pangolin
Has anyone read the posts from the developers here? Julien asked for comment, Jonathan did some research and found that only Pentium I and a limited number of Pentium II mobiles and a sprinkling of even less other types of CPUs would be affected. I'm not certain but to me even for the Lubuntu goals this seems to be a very small user base. Can we stop thinking the worst and get back to going about the process of seeing if it will actually hinder the Lubuntu goals or not. The Ubuntu developers have only put it out as a something that MAY happen depending on feedback. We need to decide what sort of feedback the team needs to give. So to this end, my question is, is there a simple command people can run to see if their CPU can run PAE kernels? I would have thought if cat /proc/cpuinfo | grep pae would not give any output if the CPUs weren't capable? I'm not an expert so just wanting to confirm. That way, instead of just complaining we can request users run this, see if they will be affected and report back. We can then generate a team stance and report back to the Ubuntu developers with some real data. -- Regards, Jared Norris JP(Qual) BBehSc(Psych) https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JaredNorris ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop Post to : lubuntu-desktop@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Fw: Dropping i386 non-PAE as a supported kernel flavour in Precise Pangolin
On 11/18/2011 04:45 PM, Phill Whiteside wrote: So there is no need to support the dropping of chip sets at 10.04, and none of at the next release? The changes in 10.10 that cause it to be unusable on some CPUs are already made. I am unclear which exact CPU models can run 10.10 and 11.04 and 11.10 default Ubuntu kernels, but which lack PAE. I think that there are *very* few such CPUs out there in working general purpose desktop or laptop computers (not embedded stuff like Soekris and WRAP boards in routers etc.)... how many such machines do you own? How many people can you name who use such CPUs to run Lubuntu today, as their primary PC to do useful computing, not just for testing? If Lubuntu cannot support old hardware, as julien has argued pleaded about * What is the point of Lubuntu? * The more nuanced question is how old, and which old hardware, it is important for Lubuntu to continue to support. The choice is not between all old hardware and no old hardware at all. So the melodrama does not really help here. We already told the community we would support Lubuntu 10.04 as an LTS, so we should keep that commitment (though I don't think we are doing a very good job of it, to be honest!). But we made a commitment, so we should do what we can to honour it. That is not in question here. The current issue then becomes a (much narrower, to my mind) one: Is it worth fighting the proposed change requiring PAE capability in default Ubuntu i386 kernels, and do we have the resources to do so? Based on my current understanding of which CPUs can run Oneiric default kernels, but cannot support PAE, I don't think it is worth fighting this one. I think there are far more working usable PII and PIII machines with 128MB or 256MB of RAM that Lubuntu can be useful on, and that are worth our time and attention, than there are general purpose machines with Via C3 or Geode LX processors in that people want to run Lubuntu on. That's just my opinion. Asking me to please think is unlikely to change it :) If you have more specific information about which exact CPUs are affected, and how many Lubuntu users own and use such machines, please share it. That information *might* change it. Jonathan ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop Post to : lubuntu-desktop@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Fw: Dropping i386 non-PAE as a supported kernel flavour in Precise Pangolin
On 11/18/2011 05:43 PM, Jared Norris wrote: So to this end, my question is, is there a simple command people can run to see if their CPU can run PAE kernels? I would have thought if cat /proc/cpuinfo | grep pae would not give any output if the CPUs weren't capable? I'm not an expert so just wanting to confirm. That works, but is inelegant. You win a UUOC award, see http://partmaps.org/era/unix/award.html grin! My suggested equivalent (but shorter, clearer and more efficient) command would be grep pae /proc/cpuinfo Jonathan ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop Post to : lubuntu-desktop@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Fw: Dropping i386 non-PAE as a supported kernel flavour in Precise Pangolin
On 11/18/2011 11:50 AM, Jean-Pierre Vidal Piesset wrote: Last year they dropped support for a lot of machines, now they will drop for a lot more? A lot? How did you determine this, and can you let us know the numeric upper and lower bounds of a lot in the second phrase of this description? :) Jonathan ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop Post to : lubuntu-desktop@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Fw: Dropping i386 non-PAE as a supported kernel flavour in Precise Pangolin
On 19 November 2011 16:00, Jonathan Marsden jmars...@fastmail.fm wrote: On 11/18/2011 05:43 PM, Jared Norris wrote: So to this end, my question is, is there a simple command people can run to see if their CPU can run PAE kernels? I would have thought if cat /proc/cpuinfo | grep pae would not give any output if the CPUs weren't capable? I'm not an expert so just wanting to confirm. That works, but is inelegant. You win a UUOC award, see http://partmaps.org/era/unix/award.html grin! My suggested equivalent (but shorter, clearer and more efficient) command would be grep pae /proc/cpuinfo Jonathan Hah thanks, I thought I did well for someone who couldn't program a hello world script, goes to show why you are great for the Lubuntu community (keeping things efficient) and I am only capable of documenting how great you and Julien are ;) So time for everyone to run the command and let us know if you get no output. Receiving no output from the command indicates that it's possible your CPU might be one of the ones they are talking about removing support for by dropping PAE kernels. That will be the true test of if this will impact us at all. If no one reports having a problem then really all this is a storm in a teacup. -- Regards, Jared Norris JP(Qual) BBehSc(Psych) https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JaredNorris ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop Post to : lubuntu-desktop@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
