Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Fw: Dropping i386 non-PAE as a supported kernel flavour in Precise Pangolin

2012-01-10 Thread Michael Basse

Am 10.01.2012 01:25, schrieb Josh Embrey:

Maybe it's just me, but the most elegant solution is as follows:

Make one final non-PAE version and then just let it float until the end of
the lifetime.  Support it, but don't upgrade the kernel or any packages
that rely on the kernel.  Then, whenever anyone needs to download a version
that works on non-PAE versions, they just download
Lubuntu-Non-PAE-final.iso (or whaterver).


Hi Josh,
i dont think its a good idea to provide a package which does not get 
(security) updates. specially if it is the linux-kernel.


Greetings

Michael



Supported doesn't always mean that every aspect is in development and
useful.  Only the key aspects that define the OS.




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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Fw: Dropping i386 non-PAE as a supported kernel flavour in Precise Pangolin

2012-01-10 Thread Josh Embrey
It was just an idea, given the fact that the lubuntu dev team has no real
dedicated kernel dev that can tackle the project.

Speaking from experience, as an avid linux user, I'll generally get the
latest project that'll work for whatever I need to get done or I'll find
another project.  As I'm not always happy to switch distros, I'll actually
go back and use one that functions and just control the upgrades manually.

Regarding security, it seems that the change will only effect a small
number of older laptops (I've tested the new kernel builds on two that are
about 5-10 years in age and found both still worked), it reduces the
likelihood of those kernels being exploited except by random chance.
 Again, from my experience, linux kernels that get compromised are often
directly targeted and not broad-spectrum attacks.

Just my two cents, though.
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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Fw: Dropping i386 non-PAE as a supported kernel flavour in Precise Pangolin

2012-01-09 Thread Ben Coleman
On 11/20/2011 4:20 PM, Jonathan Marsden wrote:
 Other than the early 400MHz Pentium-M, which are pretty rare, I don't
 think anyone has seen such a CPU yet.

I've got a laptop with a 1.4Ghz Celeron-M that, according to
/proc/cpuinfo, does not support PAE.  That doesn't seem that old to me.

Ben

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Fw: Dropping i386 non-PAE as a supported kernel flavour in Precise Pangolin

2012-01-09 Thread Josh Embrey
Maybe it's just me, but the most elegant solution is as follows:

Make one final non-PAE version and then just let it float until the end of
the lifetime.  Support it, but don't upgrade the kernel or any packages
that rely on the kernel.  Then, whenever anyone needs to download a version
that works on non-PAE versions, they just download
Lubuntu-Non-PAE-final.iso (or whaterver).

Supported doesn't always mean that every aspect is in development and
useful.  Only the key aspects that define the OS.
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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Fw: Dropping i386 non-PAE as a supported kernel flavour in Precise Pangolin

2012-01-08 Thread Benny Hult
On pe, 2012-01-06 at 16:19 -0500, Steven wrote:

 
 
 I think it's also not how many people are using non-pae cpus, but
 whether or not Lubuntu is expected to be able to run on non-pae cpus.
 For example, I would expect Lubuntu to run on the 400MHz FSB Pentium M
 CPUs [2] (only the 400MHz FSB models don't support PAE [3]); in fact,
 I'd even argue that those CPUs are part of the intended audience. And
 no matter how many users there are, based off of a QA perspective, if
 I say that Lubuntu is designed for a particular kind of machine, it
 better be able to run on that machine, plain and simple.
 
 
 Also, the non-pae kernel is still supported in Precise. All we'd have
 to do is change the default kernel on i386.
 
 
 -Steven

I decided to give a shot to Lubuntu 12.04 on my testing laptop, Thinkpad
T42 with 1.7GHz Pentium M, no dice. So I take my earlier reply back as
this machine is from ~2003 or something and not even from the 90's.

http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/Intel_Pentium_M_(Dothan)

From that list it is easy to see models from Thinkpad lines, and those
are really used around the globe.

That technically rises the ammount of users affected.

But now I'm out to enjoy -14C winter weather with a hint of Sun shining,
happy new year from me too ;)


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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Fw: Dropping i386 non-PAE as a supported kernel flavour in Precise Pangolin

2012-01-06 Thread Marvin Reimer
Hi (my first post to a Lubuntu Maillinglist),

I also had one minor problem with the PAE kernel.
I'm running Lubuntu mainly in VMs (because it is faster than the heavier
Ubuntu).
When installing Lubuntu Precise in Virtualbox I had to turn on PAE support
in the options (this was not a dealbreaker).

But, when installing Virtualbox Guest Additions in Lubuntu Precise, the
headers of the PAE kernel where missing so that the Guest Additions could
not be installed.

I recommend to include the PAE kernel headers in the base install so that
some non advanced users can also install the Guest Additions easily.

Marvin

2012/1/6 Steven sten...@gmail.com

 On Fri, Jan 6, 2012 at 2:45 AM, Jared Norris jrnor...@gmail.com wrote:

 On 6 January 2012 17:10, Steven sten...@gmail.com wrote:
  Hi, I'm running Lubuntu on a non-PAE kernel too :)
 
  1.4GHz Pentium M in a Dell Latitude D505 with 512MB RAM from 2004. It's
 my
  main production machine and runs Lubuntu like a charm.
 
  I've been reading through the emails and irc logs, and it sounds like
 the
  kernel team is maintaining the non-pae kernel in Precise (but not
 beyond),
  but just not setting it as the default -- any chance someone can
 convince
  them to make the non-pae kernel the default in just Lubuntu? Colin
 Watson
  mentioned this as a possibility in the Technical Board meeting [1].
 
  -Steven
 
  [1]:
 http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-12-12-21.01.moin.txt
 
 
  On Sun, Nov 20, 2011 at 5:31 PM, Yorvyk yorvik.ubu...@googlemail.com
  wrote:

 Steven,

 Running a PAE kernel and capable of running a PAE kernel are a couple
 of different things. I'd honestly be surpised if that CPU wasn't
 capable of running a PAE kernel. Are you able to run the command grep
 pae /proc/cpuinfo to see if it is capable of running a PAE kernel? If
 you get any output please paste it back if you're not sure what it
 means.

 --
 Regards,

 Jared Norris JP(Qual) BBehSc(Psych)
 https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JaredNorris



 That command doesn't give any output:
 $ grep pae /proc/cpuinfo
 $

 It was also apparent when I ran a Lubuntu Precise daily-live CD for the
 first time the other day and got this:
 This kernel requires the following features not present on the CPU:
 pae
 Unable to boot - please use a kernel appropriate for your CPU.

 -Steven

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Fw: Dropping i386 non-PAE as a supported kernel flavour in Precise Pangolin

2012-01-06 Thread Jared Norris
On 6 January 2012 19:17, Steven sten...@gmail.com wrote:



 That command doesn't give any output:
 $ grep pae /proc/cpuinfo
 $

 It was also apparent when I ran a Lubuntu Precise daily-live CD for the
 first time the other day and got this:
 This kernel requires the following features not present on the CPU:
 pae
 Unable to boot - please use a kernel appropriate for your CPU.

 -Steven

Wow, I stand corrected. I have a VERY similar CPU here in my Dell
laptop that is around the same vintage that is PAE supported. This
does suggest the problem is more widespread than originally thought as
this is pretty much the target market for Lubuntu, older laptops.


-- 
Regards,

Jared Norris JP(Qual) BBehSc(Psych)
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JaredNorris

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Fw: Dropping i386 non-PAE as a supported kernel flavour in Precise Pangolin

2012-01-06 Thread amjjawad HOOHAA
Hi,

I went through the whole thread (37 emails so far) and noticed very simple
thing that I already have noticed long time ago (I know what most of you
will say) which is: we do *NOT *have accurate database of Lubuntu Users in
general and those who are still using OLD machines and I mean VERY old
here.

I like such kind of discussion and I tend to agree with some opinions and
disagree with others but after all, this is very healthy activity
(discussion) but ... as always ... the real question is: isn't it pointless
to discuss such thing without REAL figures? some guys already pointed that
out, I guess.

Long story short, my simple and humble opinion is: we need a group of
people who do a survey to obtain such figures. No, I have no smart ideas of
HOWTO do that but if we could discuss about this, that would be VERY
helpful. Perhaps we are wasting our time here and there are only 2-3 users
with such old machines? for me, Lubuntu 10.04 didn't work on this:
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1590614 while Mint LXDE 9 did.
Both may be using the same kernel but I'm not really sure why Lubuntu
didn't work. Also, perhaps they are many users that will be affected with
that drop? so we need some figures.

Just a thought I'd like to share with all, as usual :)

Thanks!



On Fri, Jan 6, 2012 at 1:44 PM, Marvin Reimer therealm...@googlemail.comwrote:

 Hi (my first post to a Lubuntu Maillinglist),

 I also had one minor problem with the PAE kernel.
 I'm running Lubuntu mainly in VMs (because it is faster than the heavier
 Ubuntu).
 When installing Lubuntu Precise in Virtualbox I had to turn on PAE support
 in the options (this was not a dealbreaker).

 But, when installing Virtualbox Guest Additions in Lubuntu Precise, the
 headers of the PAE kernel where missing so that the Guest Additions could
 not be installed.

 I recommend to include the PAE kernel headers in the base install so that
 some non advanced users can also install the Guest Additions easily.

 Marvin

 2012/1/6 Steven sten...@gmail.com

 On Fri, Jan 6, 2012 at 2:45 AM, Jared Norris jrnor...@gmail.com wrote:

 On 6 January 2012 17:10, Steven sten...@gmail.com wrote:
  Hi, I'm running Lubuntu on a non-PAE kernel too :)
 
  1.4GHz Pentium M in a Dell Latitude D505 with 512MB RAM from 2004.
 It's my
  main production machine and runs Lubuntu like a charm.
 
  I've been reading through the emails and irc logs, and it sounds like
 the
  kernel team is maintaining the non-pae kernel in Precise (but not
 beyond),
  but just not setting it as the default -- any chance someone can
 convince
  them to make the non-pae kernel the default in just Lubuntu? Colin
 Watson
  mentioned this as a possibility in the Technical Board meeting [1].
 
  -Steven
 
  [1]:
 http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-12-12-21.01.moin.txt
 
 
  On Sun, Nov 20, 2011 at 5:31 PM, Yorvyk yorvik.ubu...@googlemail.com
  wrote:

 Steven,

 Running a PAE kernel and capable of running a PAE kernel are a couple
 of different things. I'd honestly be surpised if that CPU wasn't
 capable of running a PAE kernel. Are you able to run the command grep
 pae /proc/cpuinfo to see if it is capable of running a PAE kernel? If
 you get any output please paste it back if you're not sure what it
 means.

 --
 Regards,

 Jared Norris JP(Qual) BBehSc(Psych)
 https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JaredNorris



 That command doesn't give any output:
 $ grep pae /proc/cpuinfo
 $

 It was also apparent when I ran a Lubuntu Precise daily-live CD for the
 first time the other day and got this:
 This kernel requires the following features not present on the CPU:
 pae
 Unable to boot - please use a kernel appropriate for your CPU.

 -Steven

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-- 
Best Regards,

*amjjawad*
Lubuntu One Stop Thread (Mega
Thread)http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1844755
My Wiki Page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/amjjawad | My
Launchpadhttps://launchpad.net/%7Eamjjawad |
My Ubuntu Forum Profile http://ubuntuforums.org/member.php?u=941822

*My Actions Speak Louder Than My Words ||** ** I walk by faith, not by
sight **|| Imagination is more important than Knowledge || **Keep It Simple
and Short*
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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Fw: Dropping i386 non-PAE as a supported kernel flavour in Precise Pangolin

2012-01-06 Thread Jared Norris
On 6 January 2012 19:57, amjjawad HOOHAA amjja...@gmail.com wrote:
 Hi,

 I went through the whole thread (37 emails so far) and noticed very simple
 thing that I already have noticed long time ago (I know what most of you
 will say) which is: we do NOT have accurate database of Lubuntu Users in
 general and those who are still using OLD machines and I mean VERY old
 here.

 I like such kind of discussion and I tend to agree with some opinions and
 disagree with others but after all, this is very healthy activity
 (discussion) but ... as always ... the real question is: isn't it pointless
 to discuss such thing without REAL figures? some guys already pointed that
 out, I guess.

 Long story short, my simple and humble opinion is: we need a group of people
 who do a survey to obtain such figures. No, I have no smart ideas of HOWTO
 do that but if we could discuss about this, that would be VERY helpful.
 Perhaps we are wasting our time here and there are only 2-3 users with such
 old machines? for me, Lubuntu 10.04 didn't work on this:
 http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1590614 while Mint LXDE 9 did. Both
 may be using the same kernel but I'm not really sure why Lubuntu didn't
 work. Also, perhaps they are many users that will be affected with that
 drop? so we need some figures.

 Just a thought I'd like to share with all, as usual :)

 Thanks!

Yeah it's been put forward as an idea before but again, without an
accurate way to get the information the straw poll we're conducting
here is just as valid as an online survey because this is essentially
an online survey.


-- 
Regards,

Jared Norris JP(Qual) BBehSc(Psych)
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JaredNorris

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Fw: Dropping i386 non-PAE as a supported kernel flavour in Precise Pangolin

2012-01-06 Thread Steven
On Fri, Jan 6, 2012 at 4:57 AM, amjjawad HOOHAA amjja...@gmail.com wrote:

 Hi,

 I went through the whole thread (37 emails so far) and noticed very simple
 thing that I already have noticed long time ago (I know what most of you
 will say) which is: we do *NOT *have accurate database of Lubuntu Users
 in general and those who are still using OLD machines and I mean VERY old
 here.

 I like such kind of discussion and I tend to agree with some opinions and
 disagree with others but after all, this is very healthy activity
 (discussion) but ... as always ... the real question is: isn't it pointless
 to discuss such thing without REAL figures? some guys already pointed that
 out, I guess.

 Long story short, my simple and humble opinion is: we need a group of
 people who do a survey to obtain such figures. No, I have no smart ideas of
 HOWTO do that but if we could discuss about this, that would be VERY
 helpful. Perhaps we are wasting our time here and there are only 2-3 users
 with such old machines? for me, Lubuntu 10.04 didn't work on this:
 http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1590614 while Mint LXDE 9 did.
 Both may be using the same kernel but I'm not really sure why Lubuntu
 didn't work. Also, perhaps they are many users that will be affected with
 that drop? so we need some figures.

 Just a thought I'd like to share with all, as usual :)

 Thanks!



The problem with a survey is that it will never be representative, since it
is opt-in, and even more unrepresentative based off of where it's
publicized (i.e. a poll of lubuntu-desktop subscribers won't get you all of
the non-pae cpu users). The only fool-proof way of getting this data is to
automatically submit it from users' computers, but that's a privacy issue,
and still limits to internet users and those who do package upgrades
regularly (assuming the submission method results from a package upgrade).

I can offer you this though [1]:
21:35:54 kees so, as for data, with bdmurray's help, I downloaded 7271
x86 cpuinfos from bug reports on LP about a year ago. 336 of those were
non-pae.
http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~cpu-checker-dev/cpu-checker/trunk/files/head:/test/
21:36:12 kees so that's just under 5%


I think it's also not how many people are using non-pae cpus, but whether
or not Lubuntu is expected to be able to run on non-pae cpus. For example,
I would expect Lubuntu to run on the 400MHz FSB Pentium M CPUs [2] (only
the 400MHz FSB models don't support PAE [3]); in fact, I'd even argue that
those CPUs are part of the intended audience. And no matter how many users
there are, based off of a QA perspective, if I say that Lubuntu is designed
for a particular kind of machine, it better be able to run on that machine,
plain and simple.

Also, the non-pae kernel is still supported in Precise. All we'd have to do
is change the default kernel on i386.

-Steven


[1]:
http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-12-12-21.01.moin.txt
[2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Intel_Pentium_M_microprocessors
[3]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_Address_Extension
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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Fw: Dropping i386 non-PAE as a supported kernel flavour in Precise Pangolin

2012-01-05 Thread Steven
Hi, I'm running Lubuntu on a non-PAE kernel too :)

1.4GHz Pentium M in a Dell Latitude D505 with 512MB RAM from 2004. It's my
main production machine and runs Lubuntu like a charm.

I've been reading through the emails and irc logs, and it sounds like the
kernel team is maintaining the non-pae kernel in Precise (but not beyond),
but just not setting it as the default -- any chance someone can convince
them to make the non-pae kernel the default in just Lubuntu? Colin Watson
mentioned this as a possibility in the Technical Board meeting [1].

-Steven

[1]:
http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-12-12-21.01.moin.txt


On Sun, Nov 20, 2011 at 5:31 PM, Yorvyk yorvik.ubu...@googlemail.comwrote:

 On Sun, 20 Nov 2011 13:20:35 -0800
 Jonathan Marsden jmars...@fastmail.fm wrote:

  On 11/20/2011 07:29 AM, Chow Loong Jin wrote:
 
   On 20/11/2011 19:31, Yorvyk wrote:
 
 
   If a CPU can't support PAE it can't support more than 4GiB of RAM,
   so the PAE part of the kernel shoudn't come into play.
 
 
 
   From what I understand, PAE has a different set of paging structures
   compared to non-PAE. Does the kernel know to fall back onto non-PAE
   mode if it cannot enable PAE on a CPU?
 
 
  Which way to do things is basically a compile time option for the
  kernel, as I understand it.  So, if a PAE kernel is used, it can *only*
  be run on processors that support the additional PAE instructions.  Even
  if a machine only has 128MB RAM, it you try to run a PAE kernel on it,
  and the CPU lacks the PAE instruction, it is not going to run.
 
  The real question is: are there really any CPUs in general purpose
  desktops or laptops, in any significant quantity at all, that Ubuntu
  11.10 i386 kernels work on, which PAE kernels do not work on?
 
  Other than the early 400MHz Pentium-M, which are pretty rare, I don't
  think anyone has seen such a CPU yet.  Via C3 and AMD Geode LX already
  cannot run current Ubuntu 11.10 default kernels anyway.
 
 Having trawled the net for info on this, I have no problem with dropping
 the non-PAE kernel as it appears to only effect a very,very, very small
 number of users.  Whether these are current or potential users is going to
 be very hard to find out, unless they start jumping up-and-down screaming.
 My one concern was the alleged overhead of the PAE kernel but, this
 appears, from the various benchmarks I've seen, to be trivial and probably
 unnoticeable in normal use.  I have installed PAE kernels on a couple of
 machines, one oneiric and one precise, and have not noticed any problems so
 far.
 I would imagine by the time 12.04 is no longer supported, 32 bit ubuntus
 may well be limited to the ARM anyway.




 --
 Yorvyk

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Fw: Dropping i386 non-PAE as a supported kernel flavour in Precise Pangolin

2011-11-20 Thread Chow Loong Jin
On 20/11/2011 19:31, Yorvyk wrote:
 If a CPU can't support PAE it can't support more than 4GiB of RAM, so the PAE
 part of the kernel shoudn't come into play.

From what I understand, PAE has a different set of paging structures compared to
non-PAE. Does the kernel know to fall back onto non-PAE mode if it cannot enable
PAE on a CPU?

-- 
Kind regards,
Loong Jin



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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Fw: Dropping i386 non-PAE as a supported kernel flavour in Precise Pangolin

2011-11-20 Thread Jonathan Marsden
On 11/20/2011 07:29 AM, Chow Loong Jin wrote:

 On 20/11/2011 19:31, Yorvyk wrote:


 If a CPU can't support PAE it can't support more than 4GiB of RAM,
 so the PAE part of the kernel shoudn't come into play.

 

 From what I understand, PAE has a different set of paging structures
 compared to non-PAE. Does the kernel know to fall back onto non-PAE
 mode if it cannot enable PAE on a CPU?


Which way to do things is basically a compile time option for the
kernel, as I understand it.  So, if a PAE kernel is used, it can *only*
be run on processors that support the additional PAE instructions.  Even
if a machine only has 128MB RAM, it you try to run a PAE kernel on it,
and the CPU lacks the PAE instruction, it is not going to run.

The real question is: are there really any CPUs in general purpose
desktops or laptops, in any significant quantity at all, that Ubuntu
11.10 i386 kernels work on, which PAE kernels do not work on?

Other than the early 400MHz Pentium-M, which are pretty rare, I don't
think anyone has seen such a CPU yet.  Via C3 and AMD Geode LX already
cannot run current Ubuntu 11.10 default kernels anyway.

Jonathan


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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Fw: Dropping i386 non-PAE as a supported kernel flavour in Precise Pangolin

2011-11-20 Thread Yorvyk
On Sun, 20 Nov 2011 13:20:35 -0800
Jonathan Marsden jmars...@fastmail.fm wrote:

 On 11/20/2011 07:29 AM, Chow Loong Jin wrote:
 
  On 20/11/2011 19:31, Yorvyk wrote:
 
 
  If a CPU can't support PAE it can't support more than 4GiB of RAM,
  so the PAE part of the kernel shoudn't come into play.
 
  
 
  From what I understand, PAE has a different set of paging structures
  compared to non-PAE. Does the kernel know to fall back onto non-PAE
  mode if it cannot enable PAE on a CPU?
 
 
 Which way to do things is basically a compile time option for the
 kernel, as I understand it.  So, if a PAE kernel is used, it can *only*
 be run on processors that support the additional PAE instructions.  Even
 if a machine only has 128MB RAM, it you try to run a PAE kernel on it,
 and the CPU lacks the PAE instruction, it is not going to run.
 
 The real question is: are there really any CPUs in general purpose
 desktops or laptops, in any significant quantity at all, that Ubuntu
 11.10 i386 kernels work on, which PAE kernels do not work on?
 
 Other than the early 400MHz Pentium-M, which are pretty rare, I don't
 think anyone has seen such a CPU yet.  Via C3 and AMD Geode LX already
 cannot run current Ubuntu 11.10 default kernels anyway.
 
Having trawled the net for info on this, I have no problem with dropping the 
non-PAE kernel as it appears to only effect a very,very, very small number of 
users.  Whether these are current or potential users is going to be very hard 
to find out, unless they start jumping up-and-down screaming.
My one concern was the alleged overhead of the PAE kernel but, this appears, 
from the various benchmarks I've seen, to be trivial and probably unnoticeable 
in normal use.  I have installed PAE kernels on a couple of machines, one 
oneiric and one precise, and have not noticed any problems so far.
I would imagine by the time 12.04 is no longer supported, 32 bit ubuntus may 
well be limited to the ARM anyway.




-- 
Yorvyk

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Fw: Dropping i386 non-PAE as a supported kernel flavour in Precise Pangolin

2011-11-19 Thread Michael Rawson
Question-probably naive, but anyway- why don't we keep an 'old kernel' package 
for those with older CPUs?

I don't see that it would need maintenance-that's just what it is-dead weight 
for those who need really old machnes to work. 

Tell me if I'm wrong. But I vote to ditch PAE with th default kernel. Maybe 
have two kernels in the defult iso and some hardware detection in the installer 
to install the right kernel? (IDK if that's possible)
On Fri, 18 Nov 2011 22:15:52 -0800
Jonathan Marsden jmars...@fastmail.fm wrote:

 On 11/18/2011 11:50 AM, Jean-Pierre Vidal Piesset wrote:
 
  Last year they dropped support for a lot of machines, now they will
  drop for a lot more?
 
 
 
 
 A lot?  How did you determine this, and can you let us know the
 numeric upper and lower bounds of a lot in the second phrase of this
 description? :)
 
 Jonathan
 
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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Fw: Dropping i386 non-PAE as a supported kernel flavour in Precise Pangolin

2011-11-19 Thread Phill Whiteside
And while we examine the fluff in our belly buttons.

Can I ask once again that instead of grieving over non-pae chipsets that we
instead allow our meager resources to keep 10.04 alive? This removes the
issue of non-pae completely and just needs a simple edit to the wiki about
the dropping of previous chipsets? As 10.04 was based on a LTS kernel for
servers it has a life span of 5 years. We can then re address the problem
in 2015 :)
Having said that, some people are quite happy with 8.04 and see no need to
upgrade - If it isn't broken don't fix it.

Regards,

Phill.


On 19 November 2011 10:02, Michael Rawson michaelrawso...@gmail.com wrote:

 Question-probably naive, but anyway- why don't we keep an 'old kernel'
 package for those with older CPUs?

 I don't see that it would need maintenance-that's just what it is-dead
 weight for those who need really old machnes to work.

 Tell me if I'm wrong. But I vote to ditch PAE with th default kernel.
 Maybe have two kernels in the defult iso and some hardware detection in the
 installer to install the right kernel? (IDK if that's possible)
 On Fri, 18 Nov 2011 22:15:52 -0800
 Jonathan Marsden jmars...@fastmail.fm wrote:

  On 11/18/2011 11:50 AM, Jean-Pierre Vidal Piesset wrote:
 
   Last year they dropped support for a lot of machines, now they will
   drop for a lot more?
 
 
 
 
  A lot?  How did you determine this, and can you let us know the
  numeric upper and lower bounds of a lot in the second phrase of this
  description? :)
 
  Jonathan
 
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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Fw: Dropping i386 non-PAE as a supported kernel flavour in Precise Pangolin

2011-11-19 Thread Gabriel Salles
*As 10.04 was based on a LTS kernel for servers it has a life span of 5
years. We can then re address the problem in 2015 :)*
*
*
If we cannot solve this now, I agree to re address the problem. But if we
can find the solution on the next days, it is better.

*Maybe have two kernels in the defult iso and some hardware detection in
the installer to install the right kernel?*

If this is possible, we can use the 10.04 kernel and never worry about this
kind of problem anymore. =]

att,

Gabriel Salles
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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Fw: Dropping i386 non-PAE as a supported kernel flavour in Precise Pangolin

2011-11-19 Thread Jean-Pierre Vidal Piesset
I would like to do some tests with the latest ubuntu on my old amd-k6 (wich
runs Lubuntu 10.04 perfectly) but support for that CPU it's been dropped :(

Then again, it's NOT only for the people who have a voice here: it's the
users that have one of those pc wich want to use it and CAN'T

It's a shame that an OS intended for old hardware can't run on hardware
that can run it :(

EVEN if it's 5% of the target machines... 5% of a huge number is still a
huge number.

Plus, there's no modern OS that can run there...

OK, *maybe* some very oldl machines should be renewed... but there are
people without the capability of doing so.

AND i don't understand, the code is there... what's the benefit of cutting
it?

Just what i think about dropping support of any hardware.

-- jpxsat
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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Fw: Dropping i386 non-PAE as a supported kernel flavour in Precise Pangolin

2011-11-19 Thread Benny Hult
I really cant see why you're all (except dear JM ;) crying after
obsolete hardware.

If this kind of decissions are never made, People will never
recycle these power hungry computers with more decent ones.

What I've been keeping eye on Ubuntu, it has lost support for older
hardware around 9.04. If you really want to have support for older
computers, you could check another distro. Something Slackware based
for example. SalixOS ain't a bad option. They have i486 kernel, you can
choose from LXDE, Fluxbox, XFCE4 and Ratpoison.
Slapt-get is not that far from apt-get.

I dont want to sound harsh, but sometimes people should just let
go with old hardware. Old x86 hardware is not a gem in a collection,
it's just a soulless piece of computer techonology, unlike C-64's,
Amiga's and Atari's, and some other machines like any SGI.

And companies are now in here ditching the first generation Core 2 Duo
machines, anything below that is hazardous waste.

I'm wondering why people keeps those Pentium II's and Celerons
hanging around. Computing can't be fun with slow machines.

You can buy Intel Atom boards for almost free, those will pay itself
back in electricity bill
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_CPU_power_dissipation).

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?LH_BIN=1LH_PrefLoc=2_trkparms=65%253A15%257C66%253A2%257C39%253A1rt=nc_nkw=intel+atom_sc=1_sticky=1_trksid=p3286.c0.m14_sop=12_sc=1


On Sat, 19 Nov 2011 10:38:18 -0400
Jean-Pierre Vidal Piesset jpx...@gmail.com wrote:

 I would like to do some tests with the latest ubuntu on my old amd-k6
 (wich runs Lubuntu 10.04 perfectly) but support for that CPU it's
 been dropped :(
 
 Then again, it's NOT only for the people who have a voice here: it's
 the users that have one of those pc wich want to use it and CAN'T
 
 It's a shame that an OS intended for old hardware can't run on
 hardware that can run it :(
 
 EVEN if it's 5% of the target machines... 5% of a huge number is
 still a huge number.
 
 Plus, there's no modern OS that can run there...
 
 OK, *maybe* some very oldl machines should be renewed... but there are
 people without the capability of doing so.
 
 AND i don't understand, the code is there... what's the benefit of
 cutting it?
 
 Just what i think about dropping support of any hardware.
 
 -- jpxsat


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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Fw: Dropping i386 non-PAE as a supported kernel flavour in Precise Pangolin

2011-11-19 Thread Jared Norris
On 20 November 2011 00:38, Jean-Pierre Vidal Piesset jpx...@gmail.com wrote:
 I would like to do some tests with the latest ubuntu on my old amd-k6 (wich
 runs Lubuntu 10.04 perfectly) but support for that CPU it's been dropped :(

 Then again, it's NOT only for the people who have a voice here: it's the
 users that have one of those pc wich want to use it and CAN'T

 It's a shame that an OS intended for old hardware can't run on hardware that
 can run it :(

 EVEN if it's 5% of the target machines... 5% of a huge number is still a
 huge number.

 Plus, there's no modern OS that can run there...

 OK, *maybe* some very oldl machines should be renewed... but there are
 people without the capability of doing so.

 AND i don't understand, the code is there... what's the benefit of cutting
 it?

 Just what i think about dropping support of any hardware.

 -- jpxsat

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This is what we're trying to work out, how many people actually have
and use hardware that will be affected. So far you are the only one
reporting the fact that it won't work on your hardware. If anyone else
can run the command listed earlier in the thread and let us know if
there is no output we can gauge if it is going to be 5% or if it's
going to be 0.005%.

-- 
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Jared Norris JP(Qual) BBehSc(Psych)
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JaredNorris

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Fw: Dropping i386 non-PAE as a supported kernel flavour in Precise Pangolin

2011-11-19 Thread Julien Lavergne
On Sat, 19 Nov 2011 01:25:16 +0800
PCMan pcman...@gmail.com wrote:

 Is it possible to keep an unofficial kernel for old abandoned cpus in
 lubuntu ppa, if there are people willing to maintain it?
No, it's too complex to properly maintain a kernel.

Regards,
Julien Lavergne

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Fw: Dropping i386 non-PAE as a supported kernel flavour in Precise Pangolin

2011-11-19 Thread Julien Lavergne
On Fri, 18 Nov 2011 15:10:12 -0800
Jonathan Marsden jmars...@fastmail.fm wrote:

 *If* this proposed change makes it impractical to run on a Pentium II,
 we need to stand up and be counted.  If (as I suspect) it only prevents
 use on Pentium I, really old AMD, VIA C3 and Geode, then ... that's a
 much smaller population of still-working computers, and I suggest we
 let it slide.
It's the point. Even the kernel team was not able to determine the range of 
hardware affected. If we can confirm that it's only this CPU (which, I think, 
was already dropped for 10.10), no need to fight.

Regards,
Julien Lavergne

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Fw: Dropping i386 non-PAE as a supported kernel flavour in Precise Pangolin

2011-11-19 Thread Julien Lavergne
On Sat, 19 Nov 2011 11:43:32 +1000
Jared Norris jrnor...@gmail.com wrote:

 So to this end, my question is, is there a simple command people can
 run to see if their CPU can run PAE kernels? I would have thought if
 cat /proc/cpuinfo | grep pae would not give any output if the CPUs
 weren't capable? I'm not an expert so just wanting to confirm. That
 way, instead of just complaining we can request users run this, see if
 they will be affected and report back. We can then generate a team
 stance and report back to the Ubuntu developers with some real data.
That's sound like a good plan, to be able to gather more information. I hope 
this support will not be dropped for 12.04, it will give us some time, until 
12.10 when they will ask the same question for this support ...

Regards,
Julien Lavergne
-- 
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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Fw: Dropping i386 non-PAE as a supported kernel flavour in Precise Pangolin

2011-11-19 Thread Julien Lavergne
On Fri, 18 Nov 2011 21:47:19 -0800
Jonathan Marsden jmars...@fastmail.fm wrote:

 We already told the community we would support Lubuntu 10.04 as an LTS,
 so we should keep that commitment (though I don't think we are doing a
 very good job of it, to be honest!).  But we made a commitment, so we
 should do what we can to honour it.  That is not in question here.
Correction, we told the community that we will try to keep 10.04 up-to-date as 
long as we can, eventually like a LTS. And yes, so far, it's not very good.

Regards,
Julien Lavergne

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Fw: Dropping i386 non-PAE as a supported kernel flavour in Precise Pangolin

2011-11-18 Thread Rafael Laguna
But there're Lubuntu users on Pentium II and similar machines. In fact
they're happy an OS can handle those trashy computers and make them
useable.

Will this affect those users?



 http://lubuntublog.blogspot.com/  http://www.lubuntu.net/



2011/11/18 Julien Lavergne gi...@ubuntu.com

 I forgot to forward this mail from ubuntu-devel, it may have an impact on
 Lubuntu since we shared the same kernel.

 Regards,
 Julien Lavergne

 Begin forwarded message:

 Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2011 14:43:28 -0700
 From: Tim Gardner tim.gard...@canonical.com
 To: Ubuntu Kernel Team kernel-t...@lists.ubuntu.com,
 ubuntu-de...@lists.ubuntu.com
 Subject: Dropping i386 non-PAE as a supported kernel flavour in Precise
 Pangolin


 Per discussion at UDS the kernel team is proposing to drop the non-PAE
 i386 flavour. The upgrade path for non-PAE users will be the PAE kernel.
 Those CPUs that do not have i686 and PAE support will be orphaned. To
 the best of my knowledge, these include Intel CPUs prior to Pentium II,
 400Mhz Pentium M, VIA C3, and Geode LX. As far as I know, there are no
 laptop or desktop class CPUs being produced that do not meet these
 minimum requirements.

 Before I do something that is difficult to revert, I would like to hear
 from the development community why we should continue to maintain a
 kernel flavour that is (in my opinion) getting increasingly low
 utilization. It is my feeling that an extremely high percentage of users
 of the non-PAE kernel have a CPU that is PAE capable.

 If there is sufficient community demand (and support), I would be
 willing to sponsor the first non-PAE kernel upload to Universe.

 https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Specs/PreciseKernelConfigReview

 We'll be conducting a similar survey for powerpc.

 rtg

 P.S. For those of you that are totally confused by this email, PAE
 (Physical Address Extension) was an addition to 32 bit x86 CPUs that
 allowed them to address more then 4GB physical memory.

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_Address_Extension
 --
 Tim Gardner tim.gard...@canonical.com

 --
 ubuntu-devel mailing list
 ubuntu-de...@lists.ubuntu.com
 Modify settings or unsubscribe at:
 https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel


 --
 Julien Lavergne gi...@ubuntu.com

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Fw: Dropping i386 non-PAE as a supported kernel flavour in Precise Pangolin

2011-11-18 Thread Matthew Byers
Yes it will affect Pentium II. Do we have options of compiling the
kernel within lubuntu to continue support.

2011/11/18 神癒礁湖 (Rafael Laguna) rafaellag...@gmail.com

 But there're Lubuntu users on Pentium II and similar machines. In fact
 they're happy an OS can handle those trashy computers and make them
 useable.

 Will this affect those users?



   http://lubuntublog.blogspot.com/  http://www.lubuntu.net/



 2011/11/18 Julien Lavergne gi...@ubuntu.com

 I forgot to forward this mail from ubuntu-devel, it may have an impact on
 Lubuntu since we shared the same kernel.

 Regards,
 Julien Lavergne

 Begin forwarded message:

 Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2011 14:43:28 -0700
 From: Tim Gardner tim.gard...@canonical.com
 To: Ubuntu Kernel Team kernel-t...@lists.ubuntu.com,
 ubuntu-de...@lists.ubuntu.com
 Subject: Dropping i386 non-PAE as a supported kernel flavour in Precise
 Pangolin


 Per discussion at UDS the kernel team is proposing to drop the non-PAE
 i386 flavour. The upgrade path for non-PAE users will be the PAE kernel.
 Those CPUs that do not have i686 and PAE support will be orphaned. To
 the best of my knowledge, these include Intel CPUs prior to Pentium II,
 400Mhz Pentium M, VIA C3, and Geode LX. As far as I know, there are no
 laptop or desktop class CPUs being produced that do not meet these
 minimum requirements.

 Before I do something that is difficult to revert, I would like to hear
 from the development community why we should continue to maintain a
 kernel flavour that is (in my opinion) getting increasingly low
 utilization. It is my feeling that an extremely high percentage of users
 of the non-PAE kernel have a CPU that is PAE capable.

 If there is sufficient community demand (and support), I would be
 willing to sponsor the first non-PAE kernel upload to Universe.

 https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Specs/PreciseKernelConfigReview

 We'll be conducting a similar survey for powerpc.

 rtg

 P.S. For those of you that are totally confused by this email, PAE
 (Physical Address Extension) was an addition to 32 bit x86 CPUs that
 allowed them to address more then 4GB physical memory.

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_Address_Extension
 --
 Tim Gardner tim.gard...@canonical.com

 --
 ubuntu-devel mailing list
 ubuntu-de...@lists.ubuntu.com
 Modify settings or unsubscribe at:
 https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel


 --
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-- 
God Bless
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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Fw: Dropping i386 non-PAE as a supported kernel flavour in Precise Pangolin

2011-11-18 Thread Julien Lavergne
No, we have to rely on kernel in the repositories.

Regards,
Julien Lavergne

On Fri, 18 Nov 2011 19:43:45 +0300
Matthew Byers faintstlsa...@gmail.com wrote:

 Yes it will affect Pentium II. Do we have options of compiling the
 kernel within lubuntu to continue support.
 
 2011/11/18 神癒礁湖 (Rafael Laguna) rafaellag...@gmail.com
 
  But there're Lubuntu users on Pentium II and similar machines. In fact
  they're happy an OS can handle those trashy computers and make them
  useable.
 
  Will this affect those users?
 
 
 
http://lubuntublog.blogspot.com/  http://www.lubuntu.net/
 
 
 
  2011/11/18 Julien Lavergne gi...@ubuntu.com
 
  I forgot to forward this mail from ubuntu-devel, it may have an impact on
  Lubuntu since we shared the same kernel.
 
  Regards,
  Julien Lavergne
 
  Begin forwarded message:
 
  Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2011 14:43:28 -0700
  From: Tim Gardner tim.gard...@canonical.com
  To: Ubuntu Kernel Team kernel-t...@lists.ubuntu.com,
  ubuntu-de...@lists.ubuntu.com
  Subject: Dropping i386 non-PAE as a supported kernel flavour in Precise
  Pangolin
 
 
  Per discussion at UDS the kernel team is proposing to drop the non-PAE
  i386 flavour. The upgrade path for non-PAE users will be the PAE kernel.
  Those CPUs that do not have i686 and PAE support will be orphaned. To
  the best of my knowledge, these include Intel CPUs prior to Pentium II,
  400Mhz Pentium M, VIA C3, and Geode LX. As far as I know, there are no
  laptop or desktop class CPUs being produced that do not meet these
  minimum requirements.
 
  Before I do something that is difficult to revert, I would like to hear
  from the development community why we should continue to maintain a
  kernel flavour that is (in my opinion) getting increasingly low
  utilization. It is my feeling that an extremely high percentage of users
  of the non-PAE kernel have a CPU that is PAE capable.
 
  If there is sufficient community demand (and support), I would be
  willing to sponsor the first non-PAE kernel upload to Universe.
 
  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Specs/PreciseKernelConfigReview
 
  We'll be conducting a similar survey for powerpc.
 
  rtg
 
  P.S. For those of you that are totally confused by this email, PAE
  (Physical Address Extension) was an addition to 32 bit x86 CPUs that
  allowed them to address more then 4GB physical memory.
 
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_Address_Extension
  --
  Tim Gardner tim.gard...@canonical.com
 
  --
  ubuntu-devel mailing list
  ubuntu-de...@lists.ubuntu.com
  Modify settings or unsubscribe at:
  https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel
 
 
  --
  Julien Lavergne gi...@ubuntu.com
 
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 -- 
 God Bless


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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Fw: Dropping i386 non-PAE as a supported kernel flavour in Precise Pangolin

2011-11-18 Thread Phill Whiteside
I think this harks back to how long we will support 10.04 for, we barely
have enough people to backport to that - asking for a 2nd set of
backporting may well be beyond the small number of devs we have. For me,
with dropping of chipsets after 10.04, maybe we could concentrate on
keeping 10.04 alive? If it were actually an LTS they could expect support
until 2015, the kernel should be updated until then, but someone like
Jmarsden would have to agree to issue periodic updates. JMarsden did issue
a 10.04.1 release but there was little reply in terms of getting it tested.
As to hosting any iso's, I remain committed to hosting the 'older' iso's
for Lubuntu that were pre-adoption by Canonical stage on my server area.

Regards,

Phill.

On 18 November 2011 17:25, PCMan pcman...@gmail.com wrote:

 Is it possible to keep an unofficial kernel for old abandoned cpus in
 lubuntu ppa, if there are people willing to maintain it?


 On Sat, Nov 19, 2011 at 1:18 AM, Julien Lavergne gi...@ubuntu.com wrote:

 No, it means that the CPus need to have support for PAE, it's independent
 of the memory.
 Also, the range of hardware affected is not so clear, see the thread on
 ubuntu-devel. I already answered that depending of the list of hardware
 affected, it could be a big support drop for Lubuntu.

 Regards,
 Julien Lavergne

 On Fri, 18 Nov 2011 16:44:20 +
 Michael Rawson michaelrawso...@gmail.com wrote:

  If I understand right, this will only affect those on said machines IF
 they have ~4GB RAM. Which is unlikely, considering they have Pentium IIs.
 
  But I agree, we should keep the old kernels for a bit longer. But then
 we throw a dilemma, where we don't get new kernels. Unless you want a
 kernel developer for Lubuntu.
 
  On Fri, 18 Nov 2011 17:39:02 +0100
  神癒礁湖 (Rafael Laguna) rafaellag...@gmail.com wrote:
 
   But there're Lubuntu users on Pentium II and similar machines. In fact
   they're happy an OS can handle those trashy computers and make them
   useable.
  
   Will this affect those users?
  
  
  
http://lubuntublog.blogspot.com/  http://www.lubuntu.net/
  
  
  
   2011/11/18 Julien Lavergne gi...@ubuntu.com
  
I forgot to forward this mail from ubuntu-devel, it may have an
 impact on
Lubuntu since we shared the same kernel.
   
Regards,
Julien Lavergne
   
Begin forwarded message:
   
Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2011 14:43:28 -0700
From: Tim Gardner tim.gard...@canonical.com
To: Ubuntu Kernel Team kernel-t...@lists.ubuntu.com,
ubuntu-de...@lists.ubuntu.com
Subject: Dropping i386 non-PAE as a supported kernel flavour in
 Precise
Pangolin
   
   
Per discussion at UDS the kernel team is proposing to drop the
 non-PAE
i386 flavour. The upgrade path for non-PAE users will be the PAE
 kernel.
Those CPUs that do not have i686 and PAE support will be orphaned.
 To
the best of my knowledge, these include Intel CPUs prior to Pentium
 II,
400Mhz Pentium M, VIA C3, and Geode LX. As far as I know, there are
 no
laptop or desktop class CPUs being produced that do not meet these
minimum requirements.
   
Before I do something that is difficult to revert, I would like to
 hear
from the development community why we should continue to maintain a
kernel flavour that is (in my opinion) getting increasingly low
utilization. It is my feeling that an extremely high percentage of
 users
of the non-PAE kernel have a CPU that is PAE capable.
   
If there is sufficient community demand (and support), I would be
willing to sponsor the first non-PAE kernel upload to Universe.
   
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Specs/PreciseKernelConfigReview
   
We'll be conducting a similar survey for powerpc.
   
rtg
   
P.S. For those of you that are totally confused by this email, PAE
(Physical Address Extension) was an addition to 32 bit x86 CPUs that
allowed them to address more then 4GB physical memory.
   
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_Address_Extension
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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Fw: Dropping i386 non-PAE as a supported kernel flavour in Precise Pangolin

2011-11-18 Thread Jean-Pierre Vidal Piesset
Last year they dropped support for a lot of machines, now they will drop
for a lot more?
What are the exact benefits of dropping all of that?
Lubuntu is aimed to be fast, but it's able to resurrect those old hardware
so: what will be the the future for those old machines in the near future?
Support for those machines is NOT a waste of space or code, since Lubuntu
can handle them :)

-- jpxsat
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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Fw: Dropping i386 non-PAE as a supported kernel flavour in Precise Pangolin

2011-11-18 Thread Jonathan Marsden
On Friday, November 18, 2011 7:43 PM, Matthew Byers
faintstlsa...@gmail.com wrote:

 Yes it will affect Pentium II.

Evidence, please?  That is not what the original email said at all.  It
is also not what all the info I have on which CPUs can do PAE says.

As far as I know, Pentium Pro and Pentium II CPUs all can do PAE, except
for some 400MHz Pentium M mobile CPUs.

As I understand the email, and based on by fading memory of which CPUs
do PAE, requiring PAE will only exclude Pentium I, a few 400MHz Pentium
M, really old AMD chips, and the less known alternatives such as the
Geode and the VIA C3.

All normal Pentium II processors should handle PAE just fine.  It looks
like wikipedia agrees with this (not that it is always 100% accurate,
but still, it's an easy to find online source).

Do you have info (or real world experience) that indicates otherwise?

*If* this proposed change makes it impractical to run on a Pentium II,
we need to stand up and be counted.  If (as I suspect) it only prevents
use on Pentium I, really old AMD, VIA C3 and Geode, then ... that's a
much smaller population of still-working computers, and I suggest we
let it slide.

Jonathan
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  jmars...@fastmail.fm


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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Fw: Dropping i386 non-PAE as a supported kernel flavour in Precise Pangolin

2011-11-18 Thread Gabriel Salles
Correct me if I'm wrong, but those CPUs were used with 2, 4 and 8 GB of HD??


 *If* this proposed change makes it impractical to run on a Pentium II,
 we need to stand up and be counted.  If (as I suspect) it only prevents
 use on Pentium I, really old AMD, VIA C3 and Geode, then ... that's a
 much smaller population of still-working computers, and I suggest we
 let it slide.

 Jonathan

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Fw: Dropping i386 non-PAE as a supported kernel flavour in Precise Pangolin

2011-11-18 Thread Harold Neel
There comes a point where hardware becomes obsolete.  Ubuntu itself is not
aiming to be for low end machines and for a desktop is that is trying to
hit the more cutting edge market last decades equipment is a waste of
resources.  I can understand why they're cutting it.

As time goes on support for old systems will be dropped.  But also, time
turns new systems into old systems.  For the people still using a pentium,
it really is time for a new computer. The Pentium came out in 93 and the
Pentium Just in 97.  They had good runs.

On Nov 18, 2011 7:46 PM, Phill Whiteside phi...@vpolink.com wrote:

 Hiyas JM,

 So there is no need to support the dropping of chip sets at 10.04, and
none of at the next release?

 If  Lubuntu cannot support old hardware, as julien has argued  pleaded
about

  What is the point of Lubuntu?

 Have a think of that question. It is one I have been asked many times,
and is it exactly things like this that let me say me say This is the
point...

 regards,

 Phill.





 On Fri, Nov 18, 2011 at 11:10 PM, Jonathan Marsden jmars...@fastmail.fm
wrote:

 On Friday, November 18, 2011 7:43 PM, Matthew Byers
 faintstlsa...@gmail.com wrote:

  Yes it will affect Pentium II.

 Evidence, please?  That is not what the original email said at all.  It
 is also not what all the info I have on which CPUs can do PAE says.

 As far as I know, Pentium Pro and Pentium II CPUs all can do PAE, except
 for some 400MHz Pentium M mobile CPUs.

 As I understand the email, and based on by fading memory of which CPUs
 do PAE, requiring PAE will only exclude Pentium I, a few 400MHz Pentium
 M, really old AMD chips, and the less known alternatives such as the
 Geode and the VIA C3.

 All normal Pentium II processors should handle PAE just fine.  It looks
 like wikipedia agrees with this (not that it is always 100% accurate,
 but still, it's an easy to find online source).

 Do you have info (or real world experience) that indicates otherwise?

 *If* this proposed change makes it impractical to run on a Pentium II,
 we need to stand up and be counted.  If (as I suspect) it only prevents
 use on Pentium I, really old AMD, VIA C3 and Geode, then ... that's a
 much smaller population of still-working computers, and I suggest we
 let it slide.

 Jonathan
 --
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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Fw: Dropping i386 non-PAE as a supported kernel flavour in Precise Pangolin

2011-11-18 Thread Tim Bernhard
I guess the point ends up simply being lxde Ubuntu.

That is fine for a guy like myself because Lubuntu is awsome on my modern 
laptops, but I can see how it deviates from the original mission. nbsp; I feel 
bad for you guys.

Maybe official status isn't what's best for Lubuntu OR maybe you guys need to 
do a side project/distro? (I know, you need more devs.)

Tim



-- Sent from my Palm Pre
On Nov 18, 2011 7:48 PM, Phill Whiteside lt;phi...@vpolink.comgt; wrote:

Hiyas JM,
So there is no need to support the dropping of chip sets at 10.04, and none of 
at the next release?
If nbsp;Lubuntu cannot support old hardware, as julien has argued amp; 
pleaded about

nbsp;What is the point of Lubuntu?nbsp;
Have a think of that question. It is one I have been asked many times, and is 
it exactly things like this that let me say me say This is the point...nbsp;

regards,
Phill.




On Fri, Nov 18, 2011 at 11:10 PM, Jonathan Marsden lt;jmars...@fastmail.fmgt; 
wrote:

On Friday, November 18, 2011 7:43 PM, Matthew Byers

lt;faintstlsa...@gmail.comgt; wrote:



gt; Yes it will affect Pentium II.



Evidence, please? nbsp;That is not what the original email said at all. 
nbsp;It

is also not what all the info I have on which CPUs can do PAE says.



As far as I know, Pentium Pro and Pentium II CPUs all can do PAE, except

for some 400MHz Pentium M mobile CPUs.



As I understand the email, and based on by fading memory of which CPUs

do PAE, requiring PAE will only exclude Pentium I, a few 400MHz Pentium

M, really old AMD chips, and the less known alternatives such as the

Geode and the VIA C3.



All normal Pentium II processors should handle PAE just fine. nbsp;It looks

like wikipedia agrees with this (not that it is always 100% accurate,

but still, it's an easy to find online source).



Do you have info (or real world experience) that indicates otherwise?



*If* this proposed change makes it impractical to run on a Pentium II,

we need to stand up and be counted. nbsp;If (as I suspect) it only prevents

use on Pentium I, really old AMD, VIA C3 and Geode, then ... that's a

much smaller population of still-working computers, and I suggest we

let it slide.



Jonathan

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 nbsp;jmars...@fastmail.fm





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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Fw: Dropping i386 non-PAE as a supported kernel flavour in Precise Pangolin

2011-11-18 Thread Jared Norris
Has anyone read the posts from the developers here? Julien asked for
comment, Jonathan did some research and found that only Pentium I and
a limited number of Pentium II mobiles and a sprinkling of even less
other types of CPUs would be affected. I'm not certain but to me even
for the Lubuntu goals this seems to be a very small user base.

Can we stop thinking the worst and get back to going about the process
of seeing if it will actually hinder the Lubuntu goals or not. The
Ubuntu developers have only put it out as a something that MAY happen
depending on feedback. We need to decide what sort of feedback the
team needs to give.

So to this end, my question is, is there a simple command people can
run to see if their CPU can run PAE kernels? I would have thought if
cat /proc/cpuinfo | grep pae would not give any output if the CPUs
weren't capable? I'm not an expert so just wanting to confirm. That
way, instead of just complaining we can request users run this, see if
they will be affected and report back. We can then generate a team
stance and report back to the Ubuntu developers with some real data.


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Regards,

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https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JaredNorris

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Fw: Dropping i386 non-PAE as a supported kernel flavour in Precise Pangolin

2011-11-18 Thread Jonathan Marsden
On 11/18/2011 04:45 PM, Phill Whiteside wrote:

 So there is no need to support the dropping of chip sets at 10.04,
 and none of at the next release?


The changes in 10.10 that cause it to be unusable on some CPUs are
already made.  I am unclear which exact CPU models can run 10.10 and
11.04 and 11.10 default Ubuntu kernels, but which lack PAE.

I think that there are *very* few such CPUs out there in working general
purpose desktop or laptop computers (not embedded stuff like Soekris and
WRAP boards in routers etc.)... how many such machines do you own?  How
many people can you name who use such CPUs to run Lubuntu today, as
their primary PC to do useful computing, not just for testing?

 If  Lubuntu cannot support old hardware, as julien has argued 
 pleaded about * What is the point of Lubuntu? *


The more nuanced question is how old, and which old hardware, it is
important for Lubuntu to continue to support.  The choice is not between
all old hardware and no old hardware at all.  So the melodrama does
not really help here.

We already told the community we would support Lubuntu 10.04 as an LTS,
so we should keep that commitment (though I don't think we are doing a
very good job of it, to be honest!).  But we made a commitment, so we
should do what we can to honour it.  That is not in question here.

The current issue then becomes a (much narrower, to my mind) one:

  Is it worth fighting the proposed change requiring PAE capability
  in default Ubuntu i386 kernels, and do we have the resources to do so?

Based on my current understanding of which CPUs can run Oneiric default
kernels, but cannot support PAE, I don't think it is worth fighting this
one.  I think there are far more working usable PII and PIII machines
with 128MB or 256MB of RAM that Lubuntu can be useful on, and that are
worth our time and attention, than there are general purpose machines
with Via C3 or Geode LX processors in that people want to run Lubuntu on.

That's just my opinion.  Asking me to please think is unlikely to
change it :)  If you have more specific information about which exact
CPUs are affected, and how many Lubuntu users own and use such machines,
please share it.  That information *might* change it.

Jonathan

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Fw: Dropping i386 non-PAE as a supported kernel flavour in Precise Pangolin

2011-11-18 Thread Jonathan Marsden
On 11/18/2011 05:43 PM, Jared Norris wrote:

 So to this end, my question is, is there a simple command people can
 run to see if their CPU can run PAE kernels? I would have thought if
 cat /proc/cpuinfo | grep pae would not give any output if the CPUs
 weren't capable? I'm not an expert so just wanting to confirm.


That works, but is inelegant.  You win a UUOC award, see
http://partmaps.org/era/unix/award.html grin!

My suggested equivalent (but shorter, clearer and more efficient)
command would be

  grep pae /proc/cpuinfo

Jonathan

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Fw: Dropping i386 non-PAE as a supported kernel flavour in Precise Pangolin

2011-11-18 Thread Jonathan Marsden
On 11/18/2011 11:50 AM, Jean-Pierre Vidal Piesset wrote:

 Last year they dropped support for a lot of machines, now they will
 drop for a lot more?




A lot?  How did you determine this, and can you let us know the
numeric upper and lower bounds of a lot in the second phrase of this
description? :)

Jonathan

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Fw: Dropping i386 non-PAE as a supported kernel flavour in Precise Pangolin

2011-11-18 Thread Jared Norris
On 19 November 2011 16:00, Jonathan Marsden jmars...@fastmail.fm wrote:
 On 11/18/2011 05:43 PM, Jared Norris wrote:

 So to this end, my question is, is there a simple command people can
 run to see if their CPU can run PAE kernels? I would have thought if
 cat /proc/cpuinfo | grep pae would not give any output if the CPUs
 weren't capable? I'm not an expert so just wanting to confirm.


 That works, but is inelegant.  You win a UUOC award, see
 http://partmaps.org/era/unix/award.html grin!

 My suggested equivalent (but shorter, clearer and more efficient)
 command would be

  grep pae /proc/cpuinfo

 Jonathan


Hah thanks, I thought I did well for someone who couldn't program a
hello world script, goes to show why you are great for the Lubuntu
community (keeping things efficient) and I am only capable of
documenting how great you and Julien are ;)

So time for everyone to run the command and let us know if you get no
output. Receiving no output from the command indicates that it's
possible your CPU might be one of the ones they are talking about
removing support for by dropping PAE kernels. That will be the true
test of if this will impact us at all. If no one reports having a
problem then really all this is a storm in a teacup.

-- 
Regards,

Jared Norris JP(Qual) BBehSc(Psych)
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JaredNorris

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