Dear all,
Just a short note on my experience of the German theorbo.
Weiss states in his letters to Mattheson that the instrument has the
same size as the Italian theorbo,
and that it ´s unsuitable for galanterie (solo) pieces. Andreas
Schlegel has listed four surviving instruments
which are suitable candidates. Three of them have a string length over
85 cm for the petit jeu, and three of them
a diapason length over 160 cm. Thus I render the possibility to have
them double strung throughout rather impossible.
This goes - as Danny has already pointed out- hand in hand with the
description of this instrument from Baron- double fretboard strings (as
opposed to the old ones who were usually single, according to Baron)
and single basses.
My instrument (after Schelle, Nuremberg) is 85/170, and I can assure
you that trying to play solo music on this ( which would have to be
modern arrangements, since no solo music was ever written for this
theorbo ) is indeed nonsense.
It is 100% a continuo instrument.
The only solo stuff one could play would be the obligato orchestral
parts written by Hasse, Heinichen and Gebel, but these are all very
different from lute solo repertoire from this time. The size, but also
the sound (which Weiss states as harsh and rude since often played with
nails) is apt and works wonderful in big halls, but for the chamber,
the klangfarbe isn ´t exactly sweet...
To give you an impression, here is a clip when a German theorbo is
played, with nails, in a big concert hall with orchestra (Akademie für
alte Musik, Berlin).
[1]Akademie für Alte Musik Berlin na festivalu PraÃ
¾ské jaro
[youtube.png]
Akademie für Alte Musik Berlin na festivalu PraÃ
¾ské jaro
Koncert nÃmeckého komornÃho orchestru Akademie für Alte Musik Berlin
svou dramaturgii stavà na hudbà pÃ
edstavite...
And a visit to Andi Schlegel ´s website (in German) is always also
highly recommendable:
[2]http://www.accordsnouveaux.ch/de/Instrumente/DtTheorbe/DtTheorbe.htm
l
Best,
Magnus
On Tuesday, March 12, 2019, 11:15:04 PM GMT+1, <r.turov...@gmail.com>
wrote:
Maciej Konczak plays one,
as heard here -
[1][3]https://youtu.be/H7KrfGtV1jg
RT
====
[2][4]http://turovsky.org
Feci quod potui. Faciant meliora potentes.
On Mar 12, 2019, at 1:09 PM, Daniel Shoskes
<[3][5]kidneykut...@gmail.com>
wrote:
It's a d minor tuned "German theorbo" so the double courses in the
treble feel comfortable and familiar as any Jauck lute. I've tried
the
basses single strung (as mentioned by Baron) and with the octaves and
do like the double strung octaves better. Played near the bridge I
don't feel a loss of volume with the octaves. Again, a very niche
instrument played by only a few enthusiasts around the world (Hoppy,
Benjamin Narvey and Magnus Andersson I believe).
Danny
On Mar 12, 2019, at 11:58 AM, Martin Shepherd
<[4][6]mar...@luteshop.co.uk> wrote:
Hi Danny,
I'd forgotten about that awful bent wrist many guitarists have -
it
makes mine hurt just to think about it!
How do you find the double strung theorbo? I made one a couple of
years ago (88cm on the petit jeu) and was surprised by the sound
and
feel. It was more lutelike of course, but the sound was
surprisingly metallic, especially when played with the thumb out
and
near the bridge. Historically, even the biggest instruments were
usually double strung - I wonder what a 99cm one would be like?
All the best,
Martin
On 12/03/2019 14:15, Daniel Shoskes wrote:
Martin: I see no contradiction between being genuinely interested
in
what historical lutes sounded like and how they were played and my
comments below which agree with Besard that if your hand canââ¬â¢t
physically achieve the ideal position, you can make adjustments.
The
classical guitar comment referred to how I played CG in my youth
with the thumb out and the wrist internally rotated, a position
that
I can no longer sustain on the CG and which I agree is not
synonymous with thumb out lute technique. I do agree that as more
players experiment with thumb out while also trying to replicate
what we know or suspect about distance from the bridge and gut
string tension that it may change how we hear and interpret the
music.
You might be pleased to know however that my theorbo is double
strung in gut!
Danny
On Mar 12, 2019, at 8:44 AM, Martin Shepherd
<[5][7]mar...@luteshop.co.uk> wrote:
I'm genuinely interested in what historical lutes sounded like and
how they were played, so I'm not so interested in a "whatever works
for you" approach, however popular it may be, along with single
strung "archlutes", microscopic theorboes, and other horrors which
are nothing to do with historical evidence.
I think if there is a "dominant" lute technique it is "thumb
out"(TO), because it certainly existed in the 16th C and became the
normal technique from c.1600 on. But when I look at the
iconography, like Jurgen I see fingers at right angles to the
strings, and even a suggestion that strings were approached from
beneath (as happens when I try this position, because my middle
finger is long compared to the others). Nails, even if very short,
come into the picture too. So I think we have a long way to go to
appreciate the sound and technique of TO, and (as with the first
attempts at TU in the 1970s) we have a lot of experimentation to do
to arrive at something which feels natural and efficient. It's not
just a question of reverting to "classical guitar" technique -
whatever you conceive that to be - but a more difficult process of
exploration and experimentation.
Martin
On 12/03/2019 11:48, Daniel Shoskes wrote:
Jà �rgen: Absolutely hit the nail on the head. Itââ¬â¢s all
about the
sound and people have different hand anatomy and physiology.
Iconography and fingering is an important starting point but if it
doesnââ¬â¢t fit your hand (and nail growth) it
shouldnââ¬â¢t stop
you
from playing the music you want. Have seen and heard fantastic 6
course performances thumb under, but also thumb out with pi on
runs.
Ronn McF has one of the best right hands in the business and plays
with great speed and tone color variation playing thumb under on
his
10 course. Best baroque lute concert I heard last year saw the
right
thumb sneaking under the index when they crossed. Brilliant West
Coast baroque band led by an archlute playing thumb under.
Iââ¬â¢ve
also heard awful thumb under 6 course playing and painfully poor
baroque lute thumb out playing.
Whatââ¬â¢s more important than thumb position? Hitting both
courses
cleanly with good tone and volume control, strong weak alternation
in the appropriate music whether pi or im, playing ââ¬Ã
rest
strokeââ¬
� on baroque instruments as default and as a rare special effect
on
earlier instruments, bringing out dance rhythms and polyphony when
present, using ornamentation and improvisation, savoring the sound
of low tension gut strings. If you need to play Renaissance music
thumb out, have at it. If you have a short thumb and canââ¬â¢t get
it
out comfortably, focus on sound production and playing musically
and
all is well. Iââ¬â¢ve been given that advice in lessons and
masterclasses by numerous teachers. I have both a short thumb and a
wrist injured by decades of doing vascular and microsurgery and the
full thumb out of my classical guitar days is painful and prevents
my fingers from getting a decent sound. i wonââ¬â¢t let that stop
me
from enjoying all my in!
s!
truments, from my 4 course Re!
n!
ai!
ssance guitar to my 13 course German theorbo.
Danny
On Mar 12, 2019, at 2:50 AM, Jurgen Frenz
<[6][8]eye-and-ear-cont...@protonmail.com> wrote:
Having acquired an 8c lute in late December makes the subject
incredible relevant to me. I hope nobody is offended when I put
down
some personal practical observations without referring to historic
evidence.
The entire hand position needs to be different, I think. (1) As it
is possible to play p-i lines on all courses doing so with m-i ends
for me somewhere on the middle F string - the inside of the hand
would just mute the high g string because of the pinky that is
planted on the sound board with my European average hand. (2)
Playing distinctive bass lines on the 7th and 8th course while
playing m-i on the upper courses forces (I believe) the hand to
turn
more like 45 degrees or so towards the strings and not any longer
"almost parallel" as is practical for earlier music.
The challenge to me is to produce a "gentle" sound and finger nails
are a more urgent matter than playing on a 6c lute thumb out. From
what people say here I conclude that this is quite a personal
matter, individuals have different nail growth and sound ideals.
Or would you just lift the pinky? I don't think so because it is
the
GPS sensor for string geography.
On the images in Jean-Marie's links I find it surprising that the
hand is actually almost at 90 degrees to the strings, quite like
classical guitar players but the hand is placed at the corner of
the
bridge, miles away from the rosette. Once again, placing the hand
there would automatically turn the hand around even further.
Best regards
Jà �rgen
----------------------------------
ââ¬Ã
There is a voice that doesnââ¬â¢t use words.
Listen.â⬠�
Jalà �l ad-Dà �n Muhammad Rumi
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