Kenneth,
I think your lute makers are right, the small bars are not enough to make a
difference in the overall resonation. A small vignette, on the harp list we
have seen beginners who (without benefit of instruction, or even a picture)
play the harp backwards, as they want to aim the sound holes
James,
I hope this is neither silly nor cute, but there is also the question of the
size of doors and people at the time. In 1947, at the age of twelve, I spent
a summer at a farm in England owned by a schoolgirl friend of my mother. The
house was over 400 years old and my room was on the second
I am going to take a risk. There have been comments among us about specific
religious associatians. And specifically a comment that M.O. insulted
Sephardim. Well then, is M.O. an Ashkenazi conducting an internal
confrontation? He says he has Sephardic family, but who knows what that is.
Bear with
Matanya,
You are quite right that the issues of publishers, socialists and rip offs
are public matters. But one does have to define the nature of a public
forum. A list server (listserv in old computer speak) is a community of
people with a common interest, and when particular interests within
I am doomed to Hell, I promised myself to stay out of this thread forever.
But I must reply to Eugene.
There is legality and there is equity. The US copyright law is different
from most of the European, admittedly. But both consider fair use. My harp
ensemble (a group of from 6 to 10, depending
May I ask for a protocol to be established? Let all arguments on
copyrights and the downloading of facsimiles always contain either of
those two words in the Subject line. I filter things into particular folders
by the Subject or the From. If I can filter these arguments then I can
better enjoy
Stewart,
I both agree and disagree. It is a matter of the intent.
b) Altering someone's name into some sort of sarcastic nickname,
e.g. MO for Matanya Ophee, Uncle Albert for Albert Reyerman, and St.
McCoy for me.
Calling someone by a name other than their correct name is puerile,
and has
For those who are interested, and this involves strings and the question on
alternatives such as guitar strings.
Background, as a reminder: My flat back lute is 63.3cm VL, the La Bella
strings supplied were quite inappropriate (the kit maker is changing his
specs and has ordered from Aquila USA).
Good Lord, what am I to say.
(And for the politically correct, I do not use the phrase Good Lord for any
establishment of religion, merely as a gentle expletive).
I do hope the lack of civility in this discussion thread isn't
characteristic of the Lute List. I have gotten so much help here in my
Guy,
Notwithstanding your choice of venue, breaking the rules is what one does
when one has learned to play by them. There were no fencers in the days of
sword duels, at least not when their lives were on the line. Look at the old
manuals of combat, the skills attained at fencing are important,
Michael,
That is well said. If someone adds value to an object then they deserve to
be paid for that. Value could be as simple as going to various sites
(physical) and collecting them, or as complete as making an edition with
fingering hints and historical notes added. As to the purchase of
Well said Howard,
I have been reading a copy of Grout's History of Western Music given my by
my daughter in law in my attempt to return to proper music and remind myself
of the theory. There are many facsimiles of ancient originals in that book.
Under U.S. law I'd have no problem scanning them
David, well said,
You have hit several topics so I'll do the same snip and answer that you
did (my aging brain can't keep it all together).
Well, whatever they were doing, they were doing what we ourselves can
do: they were looking at the lute players of their own day. If you
want to see
I think you will find that if you credit the source you won't have any legal
difficulty, this might fall into the category of literary translations. I'm
not sure how there can be a work holder if the piece is public domain. But
if you also show the facsimile of the manuscript (I assume you won't
David and Howard,
I still don't have this beastie properly fine tuned (I mean the fret, nut
and bridge saddle heights), and I await the Aquila nylguts of a proper size
from Curtis Daily (in the mail - the tensions on my La Bella one size fits
all were atrocious).
And I anxiously await the Damiani
Tony has it down cold, a string is a string is a string. But guitar strings
are packaged according to the course (pitch) and are designed for a
particular tension (the guitar wants a higher N than the lute, only for the
sound) at the standard length of a guitar. If you have a guitar of a
different
Fred,
Although it was my intent to study law fifty years ago when I graduated from
college, I didn't. A few years in the Navy gave me the enjoyment of getting
paid and being able to go where I wanted so I eschewed going back to student
life But I did get enough jurisprudence, and have followed a
Howard,
Again I find myself referring to the harp. Harp players might as well cut
off their little fingers (although a few use them ocassionally). We only
have four fingers, including the thumb. That being as the little finger
can't reach as far as the fourth. Yet we try to keep a stability by
I sit corrected Stewart, but how did you count them?
I guess I am reluctant to do my pontifications without a caveat saying that
I don't know the lute. My lady says ask Murphy the time and he'll tell you
how to build a watch. I am an inveterate analyst, even on topics I don't
know.
Best, Jon
Rainer,
It may be that Francesco's account is fine, but that his server is having
difficulty or yours is - or one of the translation nodes on the route is
screwed up. Permanent error merely means that the system has tried to
deliver a number of times over a specified time period. Temporary
Jon, Islamic music really is non-harmonic in the sense that it is
more-or-less modal melody plus percussion. Even when two or more tones
sound simultaneously, as in the use of a drone, it's non-harmonic in the
technical sense of functional harmonies.
I concur, I used the term harmonic in the
G'day Jim,
When local luthier Mel Wong retopped and renecked my old german lutar we
kept the same string length: ~69-70cm and it tunes very nicely to E. By
working w/ a lighter top but keeping the same string length, for some
reason the Wadsworth string calculator suggests the same pitch.
Roman,
Not harmonic is a bit of a misnomer. And as a lutenist involved with mean
versus equal temperament you should realize that western harmony is a
function of compromise and habit. Over the years the intervals considered
harmonic have changed (down to the current day of Rock, where there
Dear Herbert and James, and all,
I won't claim to be a smart guy, but I do know something of strings (from
the harp, guitar and psaltery - and now from modifying the stringing and
tensions of the Musikits flat back lute I've made).
With your indulgence let me speak of the basics. Contrary to
agree w/ you about it probably being the idea that
started all this string hoopla.
What about a duet for lute and Didgeridoo anyone?
Best Regards
Göran
- Original Message -
From: Jon Murphy
To: Lute List
Sent: 24. november 2003 09:56
Subject: Re: fretted ud ?
| Shakespeare said
Shakespeare said it. What's in a name? That which we call a rose/ By any
other name would smell as sweet;
On the whole every instrument we know has been invented in every culture (I
think the Australian aborigine Digereedoo may be an exception). The wind
instruments start with the willow whistle
Arto,
As fine as you look in your youth the Berr lute is a work of art. But I'll
have to put a filter on my computer so that I don't see the pictures of the
lovely traditional lutes that are out there. I have been in contact with
Curtis at Aquila, and I think that with the proper strings on my
fifty two
strings on my harp, and seldom break one at the knot - and they pull
directly just as the traditional lute. We should all attempt to learn from
each other.
Best, Jon
- Original Message -
From: Ed Durbrow [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Jon Murphy [EMAIL PROTECTED]; lute list [EMAIL
I have joined the club, my flat back may or not be considered a lute, but it
shares one characteristic. The chanterelle broke after five days of
stringing.
I looked at where it broke (and used the remaining string to retune - which
broke again in a short time). I thought I had clean string (it
In some European countries it runs from 4 months ('student lute') to 2
years' salary, ...but it's getting better.
Jerzy
And you wonder why my first lute is that flat back kit. Not all musicians
trying to expand their horizons can afford to spend a significant sum to
start an instrument. Were
I bought my family's first TV in 1949, an aunt had given me some money. It
was a 14 Emerson and cost $200. I can now get a 19 color TV for less than
that. But a medium range automobile cost about $1200 then, and now costs
about $20,000. Three hundred years ago, in New England, lobster were thrown
Ron,
I bought a custom made penny whistle (for a lot more than a penny) from a
lad in the East Midlands several years ago (his lathe is older than he is,
but not older than I am). And for years I have sung of the Derby (Darbie)
Ram. My greatgrandfather was the mayor of Duns (Doonce) in the
There is a category of sounds called Lady Mondegreens, defined by the
American linguist (and also political commentator under his other hat)
William Safire. They have killed the Earl of Murray, and laid him on the
green. Another in that group is Gladly the cross-eyed bear (Gladly the
Cross I'd
Arto,
I thank you for the lesson in suomi, and the words for instruments used in
Suomi.
Now, because the subject line is appropriate, I'm going to add some
comments and questions for you and all.
First, I no longer have to put quotes around the flat back I made. I went to
a book store today to
I am confused, but then again my home is in the State of Confusion. Is this
string tying a matter of salvaging a string that has broken near the peg? I
assume it is not a tie in the vibrating section.
But wherever the knot may be may I offer a suggestion from the harp
community? We have to knot
Ed,
As an old sailor I know a number of knots that will hold almost anything.
But you say it keeps breaking at the knot, not pulling apart. I may be new
to the lute, but with well over fifty years on stringed instruments may I
point out that when a new string breaks it is likely to be a weak
Ed, (and I've done here what others have suggested, including myself, and
edited the To line to be just the lute list so you don't get duplicate
copies),
I bow to your knowledge, and have not yet played a lute. But that infamous
flat back I'm building is almost complete. It has wide wooden frets
Eugene,
I think it is fascinating. I don't think I'd buy it, but how can one fault
inventiveness. I'm not sure why one would want to make a harpsichord out of
Lego bricks - I'm sure it wasn't to save money. But supposing you were on a
desert island (with adquate food from the ocean, and a flowing
Stew,
A quick review gives me most of them, but of course you have set some easy
ones by using the full names. I'll look tomorrow night when sober and having
more time.
I have been busy tonight finishing the lute, and that involves a bit of
indulgence in the sauce. So I'll just say grau mo
Michael,
I haven't properly followed what the Liuto Forte is, so this is an
uneducated comment.
I think everyone is missing the the main appeal that this kind of
instrument offers, that being a crossover for a guitarist wanting to play
the lute without changing guitar technique,( I know
Stewart,
Somewhere in the vague distances of my mind I remember singing in Finnish.
There is a recollection that the name of the country, or the people, was
Suuomi (spelling?). Is my memory totally failed, or is there a word that is
similar that describes the country.
Best, Jon
Ah me, how can I leave this lute irrelevant thread? But I can't stop
thinking of language - and it does relate to music as each evolves a bit
differently in different communities.
Just that a Finnish speaker and an Estonian speaker understand each other
as much as an Italian speaker and a
Herbert,
I've had one of those for 68 years, it is commonly called a toe. Use the
metronome to set the pace, then turn it off. As you know I don't speak as a
lutenist, but all songs vary in the steadiness of the beat desired. Only in
ensemble is strict timing desirable. Even in orchestral music
Chris,
You have summarized it quite well. As one who spent most of his musical
career as a singer I might point out that the late great Frank Sinatra
didn't have a very good voice (and I'll add that my interest in music has
always been more to the traditional than the pop). But Sinatra led the
Vance,
I can't agree with you, although I believe in the strict time. The notes in
modern notation (and in the old tabulature) are in fractional divisions, the
spirit of the music may not be quite so digital. But I agree with you for
practicing a new piece, the tendency is to break the time to
Gimme a break, Mat,
Did you really have to show off that you can actually read the details,
wasn't enough that I pointed out that it appeared to be a normal flowery
dedication to the patron? Very Big Grin. My compliments to one who yet
remembers his declensions and cases without having to back to
Taking your tongue in cheek seriously for the moment, I'll say that we on
the harp have let ourselves go electronic. We use electronic tuners with
mic pickups to tune. And those can use an earphone output. Not that I
distrust my ear, I can still tune all 52 strings of my harp with an A fork
and my
Gernot,
Rites are manners within a culture. And universal manners should involve
learning the rites of one's host and observing them (although I'm not sure
I'd go along with that if my host were a cannibal - there are limits).
My late father was a life long physicist at Bell Labs (and claims the
Mathias,
(Ukrainian, Russian, Polish, English). Actually, I doubt it can be called
an
Indo-European language at all because half of it is Hebrew. There is, btw,
no
Yidish word for the lute. So, what is this about? :)
Actually Hebrew (and Arabic and Aramaic) are in the family of Indo-European
Mat,
Americans are traditionally informal with people they respect, there is no
personal or formal distinction in English anymore that equates to the German
Du or the French Tu. There was once, the Thee and Thou, but that went
by the boards years ago. Yet we have a convention (more breached than
Message -
From: doc rossi [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Jon Murphy [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2003 2:46 AM
Subject: Re: String tension and sound quality.
Hi Jon,
I've only been vaguely following this thread about your lute kit, but
I did read your last message for some reason
no concern as to the form of address, let it be what it may be. I
will answer to Jon, Murphy, Mr. Murphy or Murph. (But if you are
annoyed at me use Jonathan, that is what my mother did g). Yet each
culture has its own formalities and addresses, so we each should attempt to
conform to them, but those
Herb,
I speak as one who has not yet played the lute I'm building (that
notorious flat back that has been bandied about on this site). But I do
speak with a knowledge of design of other stringed instruments. There is a
non-intuitive anomolie, the mass of the string makes no difference as to the
Jim,
I guarantee you that the one I'm making will not look like junk, but I can't
guarantee the sound until I string it.
Sorry to backtrack here, but I saw a finished version of one of those
flat-back lutes the other day. It looked and sounded like a piece of junk.
Yours,
Jim
The sound
Once more unto the breach, and again with little knowledge. I have heard
harps with decent sound that were made with poly-ethylene pipe. Not
traditional, but cheap and practical as a learner's tool. I have skippered a
sailboat made of ferro-concrete (a heavy boat, but she handled well and had
]
Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2003 9:48 PM
Subject: Re: Holbein, addendum
snip
Jon Murphy write:
You are both right and wrong. It wasn't the lute per se that was
considered ungodly in the reformation, it was all music of the Catholic
liturgy.
ajnThere is little evidence of the use of lute
I found this hidden in my drafts folder, I don't know if it was sent but
it looks as if it has been sitting there a while. I send it on without
review. jwm
Tim, I have apolgized to David for a direct comment, but yet I stand by my
viewpoint. I probably misworded it by taking a narrow focus
Martin,
I would never claim to be a wine expert, although I worked in Belgium for a
while where the French wines were quite available. Nor does my lady who was
born and bred in France. We are both pretty good with table wines as to
knowing what we want, she the common Cotes du Rhone or a
Arthur,
Bill demeans his own analysis when he says that he is not an expert in
Viennese currencies of the time, and suggests that his math may be wrong.
This comparison isn't a matter of arithmetic, it is a matter of comparative
buying power, as he so properly presents. The economists try to
This question leads me to a question that I intended to ask in a few days
about finishing the lute (I use quotes as most of you don't agree that the
flat back can be called a lute) that I'm making. On the various other
stringed instruments I've made I've used several different finishes. Clear
Tung
Another example of absolutism.
But as with wine, no amount of age will turn an indifferent one into a
good
one.
I've found that with wine, many an indifferent one has been turned into
a good one.
And later to vinegar.
It is not just the quality but also the nature of the grape. A
Michael,
This a reply all that is also addressed to you. You should get two copies.
There has been activity on the lute list in the last few days. If you get
neither copy then the problem is at your ISP, but of course you won't know
that since you won't read this. If you get only the lutelist
May I thank the list for the excellent and informative responses to my
comments on the symbolism and artistry (compared and contrasted as intent)
of the paintings of Holbein's time. And to my comments on the loss of the
lute and other instruments in the Calvinist churches. It is late, and I have
a
Maps and globes, maybe he ran out of paint or ran out of steam. Broken
strings, maybe the player had a broken string when Holbein painted the lute
(did anyone say Holbein was a musician). It is probably apochryphal but
there is the claimed quote from Freud sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
And
I'd love to help Goran, but first I'd have to understand your notation. I
don't know of a w or an x in the French notation, and I have enough
difficulty with that. I'm pretty familiar with chord sequences, even the
esoteric (and have some original ones of my own) but the combination of
letters and
Vance,
You are both right and wrong. It wasn't the lute per se that was considered
ungodly in the reformation, it was all music of the Catholic liturgy. The
strict Protestants (beyond Luther) found the music of the Catholic church to
be a lure to the arts and other impure things. It was at this
Vance,
That being said the issue still remains true, in some degree or another
the
demise of the Lute was in part to the increasing influence of the
Protestant
religions who viewed the Lute as a vanity. That too is odd considering
the
Martin Luther is said to have played the Lute though
OK all, another week and I'll have this lute built. The only music I have
is the Ronn McFarlane Scottish Lute (with two formats, the guitar
transcription and the pure French tabulature). There is plenty to keep me
busy for years there (and when I complete the lute I'll have to go to the
pure
the up
scale and the second through the down. Have to look at this.
Best, Jon
- Original Message -
From: Vance Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: lute list [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Jon Murphy [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, October 20, 2003 5:27 AM
Subject: Re: Holbein, addendum
Hi Jon:
I realize
Wow Gernot,
I think I may have seen that Holbein years ago, but didn't associate it
then. What lovely detail, almost a primer on the construction of a lute. I
confess I'd associated Holbein with some of his other styles, the rakish
villagers and such.
Don't take this off your webspace
Forgot to point out that the printed music is in an approximation of the
modern clef rather than the tabulature. The fret based tabulature of the
lute music we read is a guide to performance rather than music as such. It
can only be played on a lute, or with a knowledge of the lute so that one
can
Just a small point on pictures (paintings) of instruments and players. On
the whole the painters of the Renaissance weren't exactly photographers,
they painted what they wanted to paint - and not as an instrutional manual.
We've all seen the paintings with the instruments in impossible positions,
Hey Art, ya gotta problem wid N'Yawk (prior to Toisday night, or oily Friday
mornin)? I love Baaston, had a lotta good times dere. (OK, time to stop the
false dialect). I must admit that as a native New Yorker (now in New Jersey)
I rather hoped for a Cub/Sox series. But when the Cubs got knocked
Fun, reminds me of the enjoyment I had listening to the Swingle Singers
doing a cappela Bach in a jazz mode.
A vignette, when I was a new college student (fifty years ago now) I had a
party at my home and there was a high school student there complaining about
the music (Bach's Brandenburgs),
You're confusing Steinbeck's tales told about two idiots, if I can
paraphrase Shakespeare. Lenny in Of Mice and Men has enormous physical
strength. The ursine Johnny Bear in The Voice of Johnny Bear can
reproduce overheard conversations, exactly imitating the speakers' voices.
And there is
Martin,
We seem to have said a similar thing at about the same time, I saw your
message after I sent mine, and I'm sure you did the same. You expressed it
more briefly, and probably better. I do tend to ramble on on the topic based
on my BA in Psych from 1957, which gives me no more knowledge
Tim, I'll try to reply before knowing what I'm talking about, Jerry's flat
back is already shipped and should arrive in a couple of days. That means
that if I really want to play it immediately I'll have it strung by
Saturday, but luckily I'm enjoying the guitar transliterations so I might
make a
Vance,
Nails? When I learned guitar (1949) I kept the nails short. But just long
enough to back the finger pad to make it solid. These days there are
arguments in the harp community as to the nail playing of wire strung
harps and the finger pad of the nylon/gut harps. I think it is invalid. I
I take the privilege of a newbie, and that to comment without knowledge of
the participants. Fifteen years of running email lists, since before the
web.
To all of you on this thread I say that the vituperation that is off topic
(the topic being the nature of the lute and the nature of the music,
And SimonShuster tap dancing Scarborough Book Fair
RT
An arrow in my heart, Roman, the old Ionic mode version was a fine song, the
new Doric version by Simon and Garfunkle is a pretty song, but misses the
meaning of the lyric. Were I a publisher I'd promote my version using the
full text with
Rastall [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Jon Murphy
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: Matanya Ophee [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, October 11, 2003 11:58 AM
Subject: RE: looking for a lutar - forwarded
No you fool, he is obviously referring to the famous concert of Chet
Perkins, bastard child
]
To: Jon Murphy [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, October 06, 2003 10:15 AM
Subject: Re: lutes
Dear Jon,
Thanks for passing along the opinions from the Lute list. My email was
down
last Friday, so I didn't get to reply until this morning. I am completely
aware of all the
criticisms of our flat
Fair use is a legal concept that applies, albeit with great vagueness,
to
use of items protected by copyright. It is irrelevant to material in the
public domain.
Quite correct Howard, both as to vagueness and public domain. But where it
becomes even more vague is when someone compiles items
Roman,
You make some good points, and I confess I haven't read every message in the
thread so I'm not sure if the discussion is on the total copying of a book
(a work product), or the copying of particular parts of a book (say
facsimiles of particular pieces that are themselves in the public
I have my own guitar arrangement, that has never been written down. Also in
my files (somewhere) I have a three part version written for a cappella
singers in a fine counterpoint. I have intended to try to put both in
standard notation, but not sure if I could put it in lute tabulature, yet -
I
Oh hell, what is all this pain?
One can't set one's body in any position for a length of time and not make
it hurt. It likes movement. In 1945, at the age of ten, I had a rather nasty
experience, paralyzing polio (although the neighbors didn't know the word
and the quarantine sign had to be
Ladies and Gents, you all owe David Van Edwards a debt of gratitude. I went
through his site, and the pages on the History and Construction of the lute
and learned a lot, and a lot of what I learned were answers to questions I
intended to ask here.
Some came from vocabulary I didn't understand in
I warned you, this is my email to RWC. It is only of interest to those who
can help me, it is redundant to my last message on the list for the rest.
Best, Jon
- Original Message -
From: Jon Murphy [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, October 06, 2003 3:37 AM
Subject
This is a message to myself to test my machine, pardon my cluttering your
email with it.
Best, jon
Wow, what a lot of information, it will take days to absorb it. I've gone to
Craig's recommended site (RWC) and their eight course kit is about the same
price (if I remember my exchange rates) as Musikits, and it is classical.
But of course I'll have to think about the flexibilty of the movable
Finally, and I've separated the messages intentionally, I come to position.
The drawings I've seen of medieval lutenists seem to show them playing with
the instrument nearly vertical. I'm playing my retuned guitar as a lute that
way, but not because of the drawings. I practice that way as I'm deep
Pardon me David, I wasn't speaking of doing an accent in the acting sense.
The question arose as to pronounciation of the English of older days,
something that even and an academically-inclined audience can guess. And
there was a comment on the stage use of accents (I don't remember the
context).
Wow, I seem to have opened a can of worms. Let this be near the end of it (I
never like to end a discussion, as is obvious). The players of the time were
performers, and as such could quite likely had the skills on the lute and
the singing. But the combination of instrument and story was not quite
Thank you Gernot, I have locked David Van E.'s site into my computer and
will look at it carefully before making any decision. But I wonder what that
decision will be, as it seems there is a lot of maintainence on a classic
lute, whereas a more modern version might be appropriate. I've got about
David,
What a pleasant message. With my apologies to the list for not editing out
our dialogue below (as I don't have time tonight to trim the message) I'll
add a few notes that may be of interest. I started with folk in 1949 for
some reason . I think it was probably part interest in my heritage
Stewart,
I'd reply to this if I had a reply. But since I agree with everything you
said (almost everything, I retain my option to disagree with details) I have
no reply. Usually a new entrant to a list is a bit circumspect, I'm afraid
this old curmudgeon isn't. And I compliment the list for not
With your indulgence this is the first of two or three requests I'll send
tonight (haven't figured out how to separate them into different categories
yet).
Fingering and technique. I know we all are different in physical form (hands
have many shapes). And I realize we each have to find what works
Well said all, accents are learned in youth. But actors can sometimes do
them well. Yet there is one group who can do them perfectly. I'm sure I
mentioned that I came to instruments in recent years when my main instrument
got too old (at 68 my voice ain't what it used to be). Singers can make any
what makes you guess what they then did _not_ do?
Sixty odd years of singing and an assumption that human nature hasn't
changed that much. If you can't remember your part, fake it. I just did a
lot of that over the last several days at the annual reunion of my a cappela
college group of the
Do you really think that the actor playing Ophelia was walking on, doing
his/her lines, and also playing a properly full lute piece? Don't go too
much by what is written in retrospect. A lute player wouldn't strum, of
course. but an actor might pretend to play (as has often been done in our
day).
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