Hi Nancy, Most Quarterly articles are more focussed aren't they? Whereas here I'm simply being an iconoclast. I have so many projects I'm working on the moment it's difficult to see where I could have time. But I'll keep your offer in mind.
Thanks Damian Hi Damien, This would make an interesting article for the Quarterly. Are you interested in doing the research? Nancy Carlin Anthony, Quite right, you weren't actually saying that the dyed colors had anything to do with loading. Dying a string is a fairly simple matter, that would not require any complex chemistry like that of dying leather. And if I'm not mistaken, the loaded strings actually have copper filings blended into the finished string, so if it existed I don't think it would be related to color dying technique. I think it would be helpful to know more about how stringmaking guilds operated, how they defined their areas of specialization. I know Mimmo has done some work in this area, but it would be really valuable to have a better understanding how this worked. Taking a broad view of the commercial aspects is perhaps worthwhile. According to Dowland there were two major markets in Leipzig and Frankfurt at two times the year, Easter and Michaelmas which falls in late September. To these fairs gathered merchants from all over Europe who purchased quantities of strings, presumably from representatives of the stringmakers who worked in major stringmaking centers in Italy, Germany and France. They would return to their own countries and would then travel to different local fairs or markets where the retail customer could purchase the strings for his lute or violin. Fernand Braudel describes the mechanisms of trade in the second volume of his series, Civilization and Capitalism 15th-18th Century. Did certains centers activity specialize in only one type of string, so that for example a Venice string was very highly twisted, whereas Romans had more moderate torsions? This does seem to be the case. But I feel that to leap to the conclusion that each area made some radically different type of string like our modern mannerist expirements, is going to far. This stringmaking tradition was not seriously disrupted until WWI which was cataclysmic. But until that time there is a direct line to the 17th century. In 1910, the best strings were still believed to come from Italy. And there were no loaded or roped strings that I have been able to discover, just gut strings with various degrees of torsion. And what about measurment? There was no measuring system in place until the late 19th century. All artisan activity such as violin and lute making was accomplished through the use of proportion as a tool of measurment. How does the luthier or lute player determine which strings are the right size? I don't see Meresenne's method of wrapping a string around a cylinder several times and counting the turns to be a reliable or practical tool. From some sources we know they talk about the number of 'guts' which could mean a whole casing or one or another side of a split casing. So there are many mysteries in the ancient string art that we would like to solve, and I think that aside from practical everyday experience, we need to look more closely at the inner workings of commerce. DD From: "Anthony Hind" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "damian dlugolecki" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 4:12 PM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Fw: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/Demi-file Damian Well let me say, what I actually said again, in slightly different words, but meaning exactly the same thing. The more we see that string makers were playing round with dyes, for whatever reason, including the one you put forward (which is different from that of Martin), the more likely it is that they would have come accross the dyeing process of leather, which is in fact a loading process. I did not say that thay had done so, just that it would be more likely, simply because the recipes for dyeing leather, using metal oxides, were being applied in the region at the centre of which you could find this powerful string trade guild. There is no jump to any conclusion in what I have -just said, that could be considered as stretching any evidence. If two similar types of activity are taking place in the same area, there is simply more likelihood that they will meet in some way, not certainty, just a greater degree of likelihood. That is all I said, nothing more or less. Regards Anthony Le 4 juin 08 =E0 22:47, damian dlugolecki a ecrit : Please visit my web site at www.damianstrings.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "damian dlugolecki" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Anthony Hind" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 1:01 PM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/Demi-file I had forgotten about the Dowland quote which indicates that 'some' strings, not 'all kinds' as Martin infers were colored. Since strings were known only by their place of manufacture, i.e., Romans, Pistoia, Bologna, etc. perhaps some enterprising maker added dye to the bath to distinguish his strings from those of others, or, to distinguish one type of torsion from another. But to leap to the conclusion that they were loading the strings in some way is stretching the evidence to say the least. From: "Anthony Hind" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Martin Shepherd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 2:46 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/Demi-file Le 4 juin 08 =E0 10:40, Martin Shepherd a ecrit : Dear All, Dowland (VLL, 1610, sig.Dv.) says: "Some strings there are which are coloured, out of which choose the lightest colours, viz. among the Greene choose the Sea-water, of Red the Carnation, and of Blew the Watchet." At this point he is talking about strings in general, not just bass strings, so it seems that all kinds of strings were made in different colours. I assume he recommends the lightest colours because a dark colour would make it harder to assess the quality of the string, but he doesn't say so explicitly. Martin I have a brown Venice which is just as good as the lighter yellow one. I actually prefer it for the appearance, but not the sound. It is true that colour is not a proof alone of anything. Indeed, loading can also result in various colours, but it sounds unlikely that this is exactly what Dowland is speaking about here. Nevertheless, this does seem to imply that string makers were experimenting in dyeing strings, and if that is so it is even more likely that they would have thought of using recipes designed, by the dyeing trade, for leathers, and these certainly did include dyeing with oxides (a form of loading), even if it might not have been called so. As I said previously, the leather dyeing trade in Italy (where these recipes were definitely applied) was situated in the same region from where the centre of the powerful string guild was situated (whose tentacles were to spread to Munich, to Spain, to Lyons and even Paris). If the string makers were trying out the various effects of dyeing strings, it seems probable that they would have tried these out. If they liked the effect they would have commercialized them. That does not necessarily mean that they did. However, Mace, in his time, does say that Pistoys dyed red, are the best. He could just be partial to the colour (I do like the appearance of those red strings), but it seems more likely that the effect the dyeing process had on these strings was what made him prefer them. As red dye on leather, was at that time brought about by a metal salt, it is at least plausible that an oxide was involved. I do agree that we can't just choose to give importance to Mace, and just to ignore Dowland, just because the one seems to confirm what we are looking for; but there may not be such a contradiction, if we consider that there was a period of intense experimentation in colouring processes on strings, but that the results initially, were not all particularly significant. Confronted with the variable results of these experiments, Dowland might have adopted the practical method of choice that you are suggesting, for the reason you suggest. However, string colour is not the main argument in favour of the existence of loading, although, it is perhaps the most attractive, as you can hope to actually see the trace of them in a painting, especially if they all happen to be bass register strings. It is, indeed, striking when you see the colour of a loaded string so like that of a string in a painting. However, a more conclusive proof, other than finding a "fossilized" loaded string, would perhaps be finding details about a stock of red oxide, in the inventory of a string maker's atelier. Anthony Best wishes, Martin To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Nancy Carlin Associates P.O. Box 6499 Concord, CA 94524 USA phone 925/686-5800 fax 925/680-2582 web site - www.nancycarlinassociates.com Administrator THE LUTE SOCIETY OF AMERICA web site - http://LuteSocietyofAmerica.org --