While I won't argue, Stephan, that the red guiterne strings of which you write are not copper wire, I think it is highly unlikely that Mace's red Pistoys were wirewounds (as suggested by Shaun below). Mace would hardly have mentioned red dye, and said he thought that they were thick Venice catlines (which of course were Meanes), for which there is no indication they had wire content. He would surely have noticed the presence of red (copper?) wire (half winding or gimped). Of course the same might be said of loading, except that loading (in particular through impregnation) might not be so easy to detect, as the string structure would still be observable through the loading, as indeed, the Venice twine structure is clearly in evidence through MP's surface loading. Of course that is no proof that the dyeing process was loading, but it remains a distinct possibility. Regards Anthony
________________________________ De : Stephan Olbertz <stephan.olbe...@web.de> À : lute-cs.dartmouth.edu <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Envoyé le : Mercredi 28 novembre 2012 12h47 Objet : [LUTE] Re: Are Pistoys prone to rot according to Mace? Already in 1350? There is a famous Italian painting showing a minstrel playing a guiterne with red strings on the basses. Someone will know the painting, I forgot the coordinates... Regards Stephan Am 28.11.2012, 01:45 Uhr, schrieb Shaun Ng <shaunk...@gmail.com>: > Just a short comment: I recently did some research on historical stringing > and in regards to pistoy loaded strings, there is no evidence. The better > explanation for seemingly thin, coloured strings on the basses of lutes is > wound strings. At least we know such a technology existed, even though their > mention mostly comes a bit too late when we compare paintings of the time, > which is not a good way to get credible information about musical instruments > anyway. > > Shaun Ng > 0426240 775 | shaunk...@gmail.com | shaunng.blogspot.com > > On 28/11/2012, at 5:35, <jaroslawlip...@wp.pl> wrote: > >> Dear Anthony, >> >> Once more my apologies for such a hiatus in writing. As I said before, the >> change of internet provider caused a lot of connection problems, and then >> traveling (a concert tour) didn't give me a chance to write longer messages. >> I'll try to catch up now, so please excuse me if I write too long. >> You touched a couple of related topics in your last email, so I will try to >> address them separately. >> >> ROTTEN GUT >> >> Obviously the word "rotten" can have at least 2 meanings, however I am >> afraid in this case Mace very clearly writes about decay of gut strings. >> Just one example: >> >> "for that colour is a general sign of rottenness, or of the DECAY of the >> string" >> >> The word "decay" reappears several times in the technical part of Music's >> Monument, always in conjunction with the word "rottenness". This can't be >> coincidental. >> Now, one can consider why it is so difficult for us to accept that decay >> process of a gut string could be real. I can see two reasons, namely: 1/ >> none of us saw a rotting gut 2/ Mace is viewed as a very eccentric man >> thence unreliable source of historical information. >> I would like to challenge both of these notions. >> >> 1/ Is this possible for a gut to decay? Gut is an organic substance so if >> unprotected it would start to decay very fast. Modern gut strings are very >> well chemically protected against such a possibility. In Mace times gut was >> treated with Griepoli i.e. tartar and a small quantity of Roch Allum (as >> Philip Skippon an English traveller who visited an Italian string >> manufacture testifies in 1663). In general gut absorbs humidity very easily >> during which process it swells putting on some weight and volume. The porous >> structure of gut and the way strands are assembled into a string makes it >> even more susceptible to decay. Now, if we try to recreate conditions that >> people were used to live in an average English household in 17c. (maybe >> excluding aristocracy), and Mace was not a wealthy man, it is not difficult >> to imagine that walls of such a building that had never seen a central >> heating system would be prone to keep constant humidity inside. In that >> light Mace's advice to keep a lute in the room with fireplace and even his >> amusing remark to wrap it in blankets seems to be quite practical. We don't >> know what was the climate in 17c., but we can easily assume that in England >> it would be definitely humid. Mace's remarks seem to confirm this: "for the >> bed will dry up all the moisture and clamminess, which moist weather >> constantly ocassions to any thing made of wood etc." I can only try to >> imagine that clammy furniture and other wooden things. Therefore Mace says >> that old lutes are better than new because: "if this >> thick-strong-lusty-sturdy-oak will (in 100 years) decay, by such usage; how >> much more easily then, must a lute (made of gentle wood, and so very thin) >> with such like ill usage decay? Yet we see, that many lutes there are of a >> great age and I myself have at this present a lute made of ayre, that is >> above 100 years old, a very strong lute..." To complement this picture one >> has to add the level of hygiene and knowledge of elementary microbiological >> processes during that time. We don't even know under what conditions strings >> were transported and stored before selling by merchants. >> I am not surprised Mace writes a lot about rotting strings and even whole >> instruments. >> >> COLOURED STRINGS >> >> Since I began to play lutes which was many years ago, the passage from >> chapter VI p.65-66, was always interpreted one way, suggesting that the red >> colour of Pistoys is something different than gut colours described further >> under a heading of "coloured strings". I don't know who was the initial >> source of this information, but it must have been suggested very long time >> ago. Unfortunately, as usual in such cases, people repeat ideas without >> considering another possibilities. >> >> Mace writes: "There are several sorts of coloured strings, very good; But >> the best (to my observation) was always the clear blue; the red, commonly >> rotten, sometimes green very good." >> >> Lets presume that as you suggest he is talking only about some shades of >> clear gut strings. Now, I have to ask this question - have you ever seen a >> clear gut string which would have a blue, green or red shade ? Hm, I haven't, >> and I am afraid this is not the same type of question as - have you ever >> seen decaying gut string. Why? Because decay of a gut is possible and it's >> only a matter of some conditions that could trigger this process, whereas >> such a palette of colours understood as a raw gut shading (without any >> additional procedure like dyeing) is very unlikely, because we use very >> similar if not identical processes to make HT or LT gut strings. I have seen >> only gut strings that were either clear, yellowish or whitish. Besides the >> heading of this paragraph would be something like "Minikins" if Mace had >> thought of clear trebles. On the other hand the process of dyeing strings in >> 17-18c. seams to be proved at least for harps. If for harps, why not for >> lutes? Mace clearly writes that bass strings were: "commonly dyed, with a >> deep dark red colour". If basses were coloured then other strings could be >> dyed too, as some iconography confirms like Van der Bilcius's painting. >> Strings could have been dyed for several reasons: 1/ some manufactures could >> want to stand out from a competition 2/ for ease of playing (finding a >> proper string with a finger) especially for beginners (amateurs) 3/ for >> aesthetic reasons etc. >> I don't know why dyed strings for lutes are so rare nowadays. As far as I >> know Dan sells some red gut strings, but no other colours (anyone ells?). >> Why aren't they more popular? They would sell easily IMO. Maybe that's an >> idea for some string manufactures? >> >> PISTOYS >> >> "There is another sort of strings, which they call Pistoy basses, which I >> conceive are none other than thick Venice-Catlines, which are commonly dyed, >> with a deep dark red colour. They are indeed the very best for the basses, >> being smooth and well-twisted strings, but are hard to come by;" MM p.66 >> >> This passage is often quoted in the context of loaded strings. Mace calls >> this another sort of strings Pistoy basses and suggests that they are (and >> this part draws my attention) "none other than thick Venice-Catlines". Why >> "none other than"? Maybe because they were imported and people didn't know >> how they were produced so they speculated about it. However for Mace they >> looked and worked exactly like thick Venice-Catlines. Normaly >> Venice-Catlines were manufactured in Bologna, but then transported to Venice >> (that's why the name Venice). The "Catline" part of the name comes from >> naval terminology. Catline on a ship was a very elastic rope used to lash an >> anchor to a "cathead" which was a special beam. The rope had to be extremely >> flexible. Therefore they were twisted from several ropes in opposite >> directions. Very similar construction was later used for production of >> middle register lute strings. Not much was written about their use for >> basses though, however Mace's statement could correspond well with George >> Stoppani's idea of rope strings. Ephraim Segerman suggested once that to >> make a proper Venice-Catline bass string one would have to use a special >> Catline twisting process. Only this could produce an extremely elastic >> Catline rope-like string. Normally I use Venice-Catlines for middle >> register, but haven't tried Stoppani's or Gamut's Pistoys for basses yet. >> However some reports are very promising. >> How about a deep dark red colour? Mace claims they were commonly dyed. He >> hadn't noticed anything unusual about them like rare thickness, >> construction, weight etc. >> Then, how about loading? >> >> LOADED STRINGS >> >> Nothing can be excluded just by reading MM, but there are no traces that >> could point to loading in Mace's text. Personally I don't think the sentence >> about Pistoys can be used as an argument in favour of loaded gut theory. >> Pistoy (thick Venice-Catline) roped string is good enough to cope with a >> problem of dull sounding basses, and loading is not necessary in this case. >> It could however have been loaded during light saturation process which was >> to protect against decay, but this is only a guess as Mace says nothing >> about it. The historical evidence on string manufacturing doesn't help >> either. >> There is a very detailed description of gut string manufacturing in 18c. >> France in "Encyclopedie ou dictionnaire raisonne de sciences, des arts et >> des metiers" by Denis Diderot and Jean le Rond D'Alembert from 1751-65, >> under an entry of Boyaudier or Corde. It describes even over-spinning of gut >> with a wire. All stages from a raw material to a ready string are covered >> including such details as clothes used by workers during production and all >> needed accessories. Unfortunately there is no mention of a "loading" stage. >> It would be quite difficult to keep away such a messy business as loading >> from an inquisitive eye of Diderot. It is possible that after 1750 loaded >> strings were already out of use as overwound basses were manufactured as he >> describes their production in detail. However he also says that the best >> strings come from Rome, and later that Italians have their secrets, which >> they do not communicate to strangers. On the other hand neither Barbieri's >> (as you rightly pointed out) nor Philip Skippon's description of gut >> production in Italy confirms this. This could indicate that in Italy it >> would be rather a speciality treatment kept in secret but not a common >> procedure. >> All in all, coming back to my question concerning a connection between red >> colour of strings Mace described, loading and decay, I'd say that the >> strings he described weren't loaded, or if they were it was rather >> non-invasive process which didn't change the string properties in a way it >> would be visible to an eye (like unusual diameter). At least Mace haven't >> noticed it. One could say that he didn't mention it because it was obvious >> that all basses would be loaded. This is exactly the point were my question >> originated from. If bridge holes on his lute were so tiny that he could use >> only heavily loaded bass strings, then how was it possible that he used >> Lyons which were ordinary thick gut strings often rotten (according to Mace >> , not loaded) interchangeably with Pistoys (which are suggested to be >> loaded) ? Moreover Diderot's description coincide with Lady Susi Jeans's in >> "Manufacture of strings in England". Again, no sign of loading. I am not >> trying to say that the loaded gut theory can't be true. On the contrary, >> modern loaded gut strings are good alternative for basses in case of >> stringing some 17c. lutes, no matter how they will prove to be historical in >> future. We discuss only Mace's remarks, and these are only some of my >> impressions after reading chapter VI of MM once more. >> >> ECCENTRIC MACE >> >> This a very difficult subject. There is a little bit of psychology and >> philosophy in it ,so probably someone that is a professional could say much >> more (and better) than me, but I have a feeling that it's very relative. >> Reading a book such as Music's Monument is like time-traveling. You go back >> in time, and the same time you enter absolutely unknown reality. You try to >> project your experiences into the past, but unfortunately it doesn't work. >> Well, you may think it does, but it doesn't. >> Eccentricity is usually measured by a comparison to the general public's >> standards. If you compared Mace to our modern society he would be terribly >> eccentric. We are used to reading of old texts, and in spite they feel very >> old-fashioned there is some level of universalism that one can relate to. In >> most books from that time there are things that a modern reader would most >> probably skip. When Burwell writes on many pages about Angels, the most >> usual reaction would be that she is a little bit potty in this matter, but >> in general it's easier to accept some unusual believes as most people know >> something about basic concepts of spiritual life in old ages. However Music's >> Monument is more unique as it is more personal. It shows Mace's most >> personal views and ideas. One of the reasons for that is that Music's >> Monument wasn't written just for one rich sponsor (which would be a normal >> way to go) like a king/queen, prince/princesse etc. He wrote it encouraged >> by some of his pupils, and printed using his own means and those collected >> from subscribers, however he says: "It cannot well be afforded at that price >> (12s.), to return me any tollerable, or reasonable requital." >> On the subscription list there are around 300 names among which there are >> only 2 barons, 4 baronets, 2 bishops, 4 knights - the rest being scholars, >> clergyman and ordinary gentleman. Not writing for a court he took a >> different attitude: "But if I had only to have spoke to those of experience >> and to show the elegancy of my tongue, I should have contriv'd my discourse >> into another shape; But in that I intend it chiefly for learners, I conceive >> I have not spoke much too much." If he was to write for a king he would be >> afraid of saying much too much, and eccentricity of his book would be >> comparable to some French tutors written for a court. >> >> Therefore, when reading Music's Monument one has to remember that if we were >> allowed to spend just an hour in the reality people in 17c. lived in, we >> would be extremely surprised by some standards they were used to. It is in >> fact like traveling to another planet, and we can not do justice to this >> kind of sources without making some necessary adjustments. >> >> It was a pleasure to talk to you again Anthony. >> >> Best regards >> >> Jaroslaw >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Anthony Hind" <agno3ph...@yahoo.com> >> To: "Jarosław Lipski" <jaroslawlip...@wp.pl> >> Cc: <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> >> Sent: Saturday, October 20, 2012 1:19 PM >> Subject: [LUTE] Are Pistoys prone to rot according to Mace? >> >> >>> Dear Jaroslaw >>>     As promised, back now in Paris, I will try to >>> respond, with a few new thoughts on Mace's string remarks, along with >>> the old, as when we talked last at >>> http://tinyurl.com/cugfph2 >>> Maceâs remarks can be found at >>> http://www.luteshop.co.uk/stringsmace.htm >>> But the CNRS facsimile is such a bargain, every lutenist should surely have >>> one; unless, like a lute maker I know, you are lucky enough to be given >>> an original edition for your birthday ... >>> % >>> First, I must say that my previous message, about loaded strings being >>> fairly >>> immune to humidity, only concerned modern loaded strings, which are >>> coated with copper in a sort of glue. If historic "deep dark red" >>> Pistoys had been loaded through saturation, with say a solution of red >>> mercury oxide (akin to a dyeing procin to a dyeing process), I donât know >>> if they would >>> have been quite so immune to water absorption. But probably oxide >>> loading (rather like salting hams) might have prevented them rotting, or >>> at least slowed the process down (are there any chemists among you who >>> could say if this is likely?). >>> % >>> I will reply to your messages, but breaking up my responses to lighten the >>> load: >>> I) Why Maceâs Pistoy Basses dyed Deep dark red are quite different from >>> his omnipurpose plain red coloured strings, and are not therefore >>> particularly prone to rotting according to Mace. >>> II) How reliable, and not just excentric, is Mace, a few arguments in his >>> favour? >>> A) Meanes used for octaves? B) Why were the Lyons Burwell thought so good, >>> now so bad, according to Mace? (some data on out sourcing from >>> Barbieri) >>> % >>> I) Are Pistoys prone to rot according to Mace? >>> In relation to the rotting tendency of red strings, you ask me, >>>               "how will you explain a quote from Mace p.66: >>>>   "I have sometimes seen strings of a yellowish color very good; yet but >>>>   seldom; for that color is a general sign of rottenness, or of the decay >>>>   of the string. There are several sorts of colored strings, very good; >>>>   but the best was always the clear blue; the red commonly rotten." >>>>   As far as I understand red color is a most popular color of loaded >>>>   string. If this is so, how then they could be commonly rotten?" >>>> Jaroslaw >>> Perhaps the "underlying" question, here (please tell me if I am wrong), is >>> whether, when Mace describes Red coloured strings as "commonly rotten" >>> (your quote above), he is including in this description, all red strings >>> without exception (dyed or coloured), even those from Pistoy, which are >>> dyed "deep dark red". In other words, is he saying Pistoys are >>> commonly rotten? and if so, would this rule them out as being loaded >>> strings? >>> % >>> Here, is my reasoning: Mace had a very strong preoccupation with rotten gut, >>> clearly from personal experience (althoughxperience (although I have never >>> encountered this >>> problem), and he therefore gives detailed advice on how to store >>> strings to make sure they don't "take any wet, or moist air." Further, >>> whenever he mentions a string liable to rot, he immediately states this >>> within the next few sentences, as in all these cases : >>> "There is a small sort of lyons, which many use for the Octaves. But I care >>> not for them, they being constantly rotten, and good for little, but to >>> make frets of." >>> (...) >>> "I have sometimes seen strings of a yellowish colour, very good; yet, but >>> seldom; for that colour is a general sign of rottenness, or of the decay >>> of the string." >>> (...) >>> "There are several sorts of coloured strings, very good; But the best (to my >>> observation) was always the clear Blue; the Red, commonly rotten, >>> sometimes green, very good." >>> % >>> It would therefore be very surprising if he had not done the same for >>> Pistoy Basses, if he had really thought they were often rotten, >>> especially as they were rare. Why allow a student to waste time >>> searching them out, if they are both rare, and often rotten ? But he >>> only speaks of their excellent quality (next to the heading, "And what >>> sort of strings are best?"), and clearly contrasts them with the >>> inferior Lyons, "They are indeed the very best, for the basses, being >>> smooth and well twisted strings, but are hard to come by; however out of >>> a good parcel of Lyons strings, you may (with care) pick those which >>> serve very well." Wouldn't he have immediately (within the next few >>> sentences) warned the reader about this danger, if there had been any; >>> but follows a number of paragraphs, in which he explains "How to chuse >>> your strings", giving rules for choosing Minikins, Venice Catlins, and >>> Lyons, but not for Pistoys, presumably either because they are too rare, >>> or because they are always good, in which case just the "deep dark >>> red", is sign enough to vouch for this stringâs quality. During these >>> explanations, he again insists that Lyons basses are inferior ey are much >>> more inferior strings than the other", but he does >>> not extend this criticism to Pistoys, which seem therefore to be >>> unparalleled in quality (indeed "the other" may actually be referring >>> back to "Pistoys", the other type of bass string). >>> % >>> Finally, under the completely new heading "Coloured strings", he talks of >>> yellowish, clear blue, red, and green strings, without giving any >>> indication of their use (while for all strings with a name which at >>> least originally implied a provenance, Minikin, Venices, Lyons, and >>> Pistoys, he took great care to discuss their uses. In this he does >>> exactly the same as Dowland, who mentions the same colours., but gives >>> no indication of their use (while he does for other string types) : >>> "Some strings there are which are coloured, out of which choose the lightest >>> colours, viz. among the Greene choose the Sea- water, of Red the >>> Carnation, and of Blew the Watchet." Dowland (VLL, 1610, sig.Dv.) >>> http://www.luteshop.co.uk/stringsdowland.htm >>> % >>> I suppose there are three possible interpretations for this, : 1) the >>> colours discussed could be a natural coloration that can effect ANY >>> string type, except possibly Pistoys which are dyed dark red already >>> (indeed there are naturally coloured yellow, and brown strings, I have >>> yellow and brown Venices, there are also red and black, but perhaps not >>> green and blue ?); 2) they could be omnipurpose strings coloured simply >>> for decorative use, for making an interesting pattern; 3) they could be >>> general purpose strings that were coloured to work as position markers, >>> just as with the synthetic harp strings shown here: >>> Position marking coloured synthetic harp strings: >>> http://tinyurl.com/cdgsm5l >>> as indeed, Dan Larson can do for Lyons; here is an example of coloured >>> theorbo strings. >>> Position marking coloured gut theorbo strings: >>> http://tinyurl.com/9gcf9z6 >>> In all these cases above the red strings are not restricted to basses, as >>> they are in this one below: >>> Loaded basses, a modern lute strung in loaded Venices: >>> http://www.luthiste.com/images/rosace.jpg >>> A mixed case: before I had all loaded basses, I did tend to use my Gimped >>> 7c as a position marker, while the colour from 8c down to 11c were just >>> loaded basses : >>> http://tinyurl.com/czf8oy7 >>> % >>> Does the iconography show similar patterns for historic lutes? >>> See http://www.aquilacorde.com/images/pdf/9e.pdf >>> There is a possible example of case 2, decorative use on P. 62/102 (of text >>> above) Bilcius (?), 2nd half of the 17th C. detail of the bridge of a 12 >>> course (but I have no modern example of this decorative use). >>>  An example of case 3 position marker, could be Rubensâ Lute player: >>> http://tinyurl.com/9sjtjuf >>> Ambiguous situation (case 2 or 3?), see P64/102 âDyed strings for >>> aesthetical purposesâ MP >>> http://www.aquilacorde.com/images/pdf/9e.pdf >>> It would be difficult to differentiate use (2) and (3) with iconography, >>> and nothing could prevent a luthenist just using any colour he happened >>> to have for any position, with no aesthetic or other intention what ever. >>> Contrast these with the red basses, presumably Pistoys, shown here: >>> http://tinyurl.com/9ry3r7b >>> % >>> Now all I can conclude from Mace, is that Pistoys dyed deep dark red were >>> the very best basses of his time. We can not directly conclude from this >>> that they were loaded, but it is highly likely they underwent some sort >>> of special dyeing process, which, if loading with mercury salts was >>> involved, would be an integral part of their bass string quality; but >>> conceivably it could also be the result of a curing preservation process >>> involving these same oxides, or the same chemicals used just to >>> distinguish them from any other bass string types (as a sort of seal of >>> quality), but possibly all three purposes came together. >>> They were probably rare compared to Lyons (see IInd part) and therefore >>> appear only on some of the best or most wealthy playerâs lutes (Charles >>> Mouton for example). >>> We can not expect to be able to recognize loading (over other purposes) in a >>> painting (indeed it is hard to distinguish in the photos above); even >>> if, in the hand, they might look and feel very different from the simple >>> red coloured strings. >>> We only have indirect evidence for loading: the small bridge holes, >>> descriptions >>> of bass strings having been quite loud, and yet the French lutes being >>> quite small (Charles Mouton), all this, including the colour, makes >>> loading a plausible hypothesis, but that has not been entirely proved, >>> there are just strong indications. >>> To go further than this, we would need to discover a list of chemicals >>> including mercury salts, etc, in the atelier of a string maker, or >>> similar chemical deposits. To my knowledge this has not been found, as >>> yet (Barbieri did not find such data in Roman ateliers). >>> % >>> This is just my non-specialist musings around the data, Jaroslaw, but I >>> have very much enjoyed thinking about all this again. >>> % >>> Regards >>> Anthony >>>  >>>     De : JarosĹaw Lipski <jaroslawlip...@wp.pl> >>> Ă : Anthony Hind <agno3ph...@yahoo.com> >>> EnvoyĂŠ le : Samedi 6 octobre 2012 23h49 >>> Objet : Re: [LUTE] Re: the point of synthetics - Rather the movement of >>> the whole lute >>> >>> Dear Anthony, >>> >>> I understood from MP's website that one of the strong arguments for >>> loaded basses is iconography which quite consistently shows red or >>> brown-red bass strings, which are supposed to had been loaded using >>> oxides of lead, copper, iron etc. We know from pictures that mainly >>> basses were red or reddish and if they were only dyed (as Mace >>> described), how can one discern them from loaded strings, and how one >>> can take iconography as an evidence of loading if there is no difference >>> between 2 types of strings on paintings? From Mace's description I get >>> an impression that he talks about ordinary red dyed guts: >>> "There >>> is another sort of strings, which they call Pistoy basses, which I >>> conceive are none other then thick Venice-catlines, which are commonly >>> dyed, with a deep dark red color" >>> The same person >>> writes >>> on the same page that red colored strings are commonly rotten. For me >>> it signifies that they were rather normally dyed, but not loaded. >>> Obviously there is an argument about bridge holes etc, but I wouldn't >>> like to return to our old discussion which in my opinion is quite >>> difficult to solve at the moment without any new data. >>> Meanwhile >>> (returning to our topic), I don't think one needs to prove superiority >>> of one string material over another. Everything has its advantages and >>> disadvantages. >>> Nice to hear from you too. >>> Best wishes >>> >>> Jaroslaw >>> >>> P.S. I am not against loaded bass theory, I'm just trying to asses all >>> information objectively. >>> >>> >>> WiadomoĹÄ napisana przez Anthony Hind w dniu 6 paĹş 2012, o godz. 22:13: >>> >>>>   Oh I was only speaking about modern loaded strings, that at present are >>>>   covered in the copper loading. >>>>   I don't know what would happen with loading by saturation of >>> an oxide, >>>>   although presumably that >>>>   should also prevent rotting. Oxide loading, however, could result in >>>>   various colours. >>>>   But according to Charles Besnainou thick untreated gut can also be >>>>   reddish or yellowish in hue. >>>>   I don't think colour is necessarilly always a sign of loading. Aren't >>>>   Georges Stoppani's strings rather red. >>>>   I am not of course suggesting tht they are prone to rot, but nor are >>>>   they loaded (although he may have made a few in experiments). >>>>   Nice to hear from you again >>>>   Best wishes >>>>   Anthony >>>>    __________________________________________________________________ >>>> >>>>   De : JarosAA'aw Lipski <jaroslawlip...@wp.pl> >>>>   AEUR : lute@cs.dartmouth.edu >>>>   EnvoyA(c) le : Samedi 6 octobre 2012 21h45 >>>>   Objet : [LUTE] Re: the point of synthetics - Rather the movement of the >>>>   whole lute >>>>   Maybe, but then how will you explain a quote from Mace p.66: >>>>   "I have sometimes seen strings of a yellowish color very good; yet but >>>>   seldom; for that color is a general sign of rottenness, or of the decay >>>>   of the string. There are several sorts of colored strings, very good; >>>>   but the best was always the clear blue; the red commonly rotten." >>>>   As far as I understand red color is a most popular color of loaded >>>>   string. If this is so, how then they could be commonly rotten? >>>>   All best >>>>   Jaroslaw >>>>   WiadomoAA>Ae/= napisana przez Anthony Hind w dniu 6 >>> paAA-o 2012, o >>>>   godz. 21:12: >>>>> Loading, to a certain extent does protect against humidity changes. >>>>> Perhaps there may have been other treatments that we don't know >>>>   about. >>>>> Anthony >>>>>   __________________________________________________________________ >>>>> >>>>> De : Sam Chapman <[1]manchap...@gmail.com> >>>>> A : alexander <[2]voka...@verizon.net> >>>>> Cc : Mark Probert <[3]probe...@gmail.com>; lute-cs. edu >>>>> <[4]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> >>>>> Envoye le : Samedi 6 octobre 2012 18h03 >>>>> Objet : >>> [LUTE] Re: the point of synthetics - Rather the movement of >>>>   the >>>>> whole lute >>>>>   Interesting. Weren't strings sometimes also treated with certain >>>>   oils >>>>> - >>>>>   almond oil I think? I hadn't realised that this could potentially >>>>>   protect against humidity changes. >>>>>   Sam >>>>>   On 6 October 2012 15:05, alexander <[1][1][5]voka...@verizon.net> >>>>   wrote: >>>>>    It needs to be understood, i think, that there are clearly two >>>>>    elements in the pitch (in)stability. The string material and >>>>   design >>>>>    is, of course one. But for the light and breathing, as it is, >>>>   lute, >>>>>    the movement of the whole structure, most likely influences >>> the >>>>>    tuning much, much more. So, in this case, chasing the string >>>>   mole >>>>>    while disregarding the body movement monster, is not going to >>>>   solve >>>>>    anything. Especially with the synthetics, - the differences >>>>> observed >>>>>    here are the result of a different stretch - flexibility of the >>>>>    materials, rather then some radical reaction from the material >>>>   to >>>>>    the temperature - humidity change. (Of course the wound strings, >>>>>    consisting of two conflicting materials are a problem of its' >>>>   own). >>>>>    Just one brief look at the size of a single string and comparing >>>>   it >>>>>    with the size of the whole instrument should make one to realize >>>>>    something here, >>> right? >>>>>    I do not have an information on the early lutes in this regard, >>>>   but >>>>>    early - baroque - bowed instruments as well as some later >>>>   violins, >>>>>    especially those built and used in bad climes, had the inner >>>>   wood >>>>>    surfaces treated with the mixture of hide glue and linseed oil. >>>>>    (There were actually some arguing this might have improved the >>>>>    instrument sound - to some tastes, that is, just off the top of >>>>   my >>>>>    head - look up Frederick Castle's "Violin tone peculiarities"). >>>>> Some >>>>>    other varnishes on the inner wood surface were observed as well. >>>>   I >>>>>    have seen them on museum instruments. And some varnishes >>>>   penetrated >>>>>   >>> the wood deeply enough to create more wood stability. Think >>>>   Cremona >>>>>    here. >>>>>    Protecting the inner wood surface of the lute would do much more >>>>   to >>>>>    stabilize its' tuning in the case of rapid weather changes. But >>>>> this >>>>>    will never happen, i would hazard to guess. Chasing a perfect >>>>> string >>>>>    - there is the solution, of course. >>>>>    alexander r. >>>>>    On Sat, 06 Oct 2012 12:17:41 +1000 >>>>>    Mark Probert <[2][2][6]probe...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> My $0.02, living in Sydney Australia, is that nylgut mitigates >>>>>    some >>>>>> of he effect of fairly extreme weather changes. We can have >>> a >>>>>    thunder >>>>>> storm roll in and have the temperature drop by 10+C in the space >>>>>    of as >>>>>> many minutes. Gut just gives up in those circumstances. >>>>>> >>>>>> Part B of this is the effect of the weather on the wood of the >>>>>> instrument. One of my lutes is more stable than the other in the >>>>>> pegbox department. When we are in a changing time, I am forced >>>>>    not to >>>>>> play this instrument for days at a time (I really don't enjoy the >>>>>    tune, >>>>>> tune, tune aspect). >>>>>> >>>>>> Then, isn't there the old adage of lute players spending half >>>>>    their >>>>>> time tuning and the other half playing out of tune? This is not >>>>> a >>>>>    new >>>>>> problem, though >>> I do believe that synthetics help. >>>>>> >>>>>> Kind regards >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> mark. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> To get on or off this list see list information at >>>>>> [3][3][7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >>>>>   -- >>>>>   Sam Chapman >>>>>   Oetlingerstrasse 65 >>>>>   4057 Basel >>>>>   (0041) 79 530 39 91 >>>>>   -- >>>>> References >>>>>   1. mailto:[4][8]voka...@verizon.net >>>>>   2. mailto:[5][9]probe...@gmail.com >>>>>   3. [6][10]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> References >>>>> >>>>> 1. mailto:[11]voka...@verizon.net >>>>> 2. mailto:[12]probe...@gmail.com >>>>> 3. [13]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >>>>> 4. mailto:[14]voka...@verizon.net >>>>> 5. mailto:[15]probe...@gmail.com >>>>> 6. [16]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >>>> >>>>   -- >>>> >>>> References >>>> >>>>   1. mailto:manchap...@gmail.com >>>>   2. mailto:voka...@verizon.net >>>>   3. mailto:probe...@gmail.com >>>>   4. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu >>>>   5. mailto:voka...@verizon.net >>>>   6. mailto:probe...@gmail.com >>>>   7. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >>>>   8. mailto:voka...@verizon.net >>>>   9. mailto:probe...@gmail.com >>>>  10. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >>>>  11. mailto:voka...@verizon.net >>>>  12. mailto:probe...@gmail.com >>>>  13. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >>>>  14. mailto:voka...@verizon.net >>>>  15. mailto:probe...@gmail.com >>>>  16. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >>>> >>>>     >> >> > > > -- Viele Grüße Best regards Stephan Olbertz
