I think we have plenty of evidence to support the use of fingernails at
least for archlutes and theorboes...
Piccinini, Silvius Weiss and Mace are three figures that give testimony
to this practice, the latter two although not necessarily in favour of
it.
[1]Skickat frÃÂ¥n Yahoo Mail för iPhone
Den onsdag, mars 6, 2019, 9:16 em, skrev Lex Eisenhardt
<lex.eisenha...@gmail.com>:
Almost no nails?
L
Van: Roland Hayes [[1]mailto:[2]rha...@legalaidbuffalo.org]
Verzonden: woensdag 6 maart 2019 21:02
Aan: lex.eisenhardt <[2][3]lex.eisenha...@gmail.com>
Onderwerp: Re: [LUTE] Re: right hand technique -- bending the pinky
I would add "almost"
Get [3]Outlook for Android
_____________________________________________________________________
From: [4][4]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
<[5][5]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu> on
behalf of lex.eisenhardt <[6][6]lex.eisenha...@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 6, 2019 2:37:05 PM
To: Ron Andrico; Lute List
Subject: [LUTE] Re: right hand technique -- bending the pinky
No nails? On the theorbo?
Lex
Verzonden vanaf mijn Samsung Galaxy-smartphone.
-------- Oorspronkelijk bericht --------
Van: Ron Andrico <[7][7]praelu...@hotmail.com>
Datum: 06-03-19 20:30 (GMT+01:00)
Aan: Lute List <[8][8]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Onderwerp: [LUTE] Re: right hand technique -- bending the pinky
Thank you Martyn. It's about time we all sorted out this
popular
misconception. I have encountered several classical guitarists
who
still think their right hand position must be completely
altered
to
play lute, and it's a surprise to them when I say that their
hand
position is probably optimal for baroque lute and theorbo -
perhaps
minus the nails.
RA
__________________________________________________________________
From: [9][9]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
<[10][10]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu> on
behalf
of Martyn Hodgson <[11][11]hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, March 6, 2019 3:55 PM
To: Lute List; Ron Andrico
Subject: [LUTE] Re: right hand technique -- bending the pinky
Indeed. I well recall Eph Segerman remarking several years
ago
that
the obsession with thumb-under was, and for many remains,
an
attempt
by
some modern lutenists to distance themselves from the hated
classical
guitar which, ironically, many had started out on!
As you say Ron, the evidence is very clear
MH
On Wednesday, 6 March 2019, 13:08:10 GMT, Ron Andrico
<[12][12]praelu...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Perhaps the mis-remembered quotation is a conflation of
Besard
and
Vallet, who recommended thumb-index for fast passages.
Nevertheless,
music from around 1600 forward in time should be played
with
the
thumb
out if we are to follow the written advice and the
iconography. I
still see far too may baroque lute and theorbo players
using
thumb-under, which is patently absurd given both the
historical
precedent and the physical layout of extended bass
instruments.
Isn't
it about time lute players moved forward from the
guitarist
versus
lutenist nonsense from the 1970s and played according to
actual
historical examples?
__________________________________________________________________
From: [1][13][13]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
<[2][14][14]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
on
behalf
of Martin Shepherd <[3][15][15]mar...@luteshop.co.uk>
Sent: Wednesday, March 6, 2019 8:23 AM
To: Lute List
Subject: [LUTE] Re: right hand technique -- bending the
pinky
Dear All,
Just from memory - Besard insists on thumb-out technique
as
being
the
best, but allows that people with short thumbs may find
thumb-inside
easier. I find it inconceivable that he would change
hand
position
during a piece, and see no reason why you should not use
thumb-index
alternation in fast runs with thumb out - flamenco
guitarists
do
it
all
the time.
The fingering dots in the ML lute book (c.1640) give an
interesting
indication of this. In Dowland's fantasia (Poulton 1, ML
ff.14v-15r)
all runs are marked to be played middle-index, except
where
a
running
passage has infrequent bass notes (f.15, second system)
which
have
no
double dots (meaning middle), so presumably to be be
played
thumb-index. Once the bass notes become more frequent
(and
the
speed
of the treble movement stays the same, 3rd and 4th
systems)
the
middle-index alternation returns. Then a fast cadential
formula
(end
of
system 5) lacks any double dots and is therefore
thumb-index.
I'm sure there are many other examples like this. Nigel
North's
recent
talk at the Lute Society gave many interesting examples
of
RH
fingerings.
Martin
On 06/03/2019 08:06, [4][16][16]jo.lued...@t-online.de
wrote:
> Sorry: 'original', naturally!
>
> Gesendet von meinem BlackBerry 10-Smartphone.
> Originalnachricht
> Von: [5][17][17]jo.lued...@t-online.de
> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 6. MÃÃà �rz 2019 07:49
> An: Lute net
> Antwort an: [6][18][18]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
> Betreff: [LUTE] Re: right hand technique -- bending the
pinky
>
>
> Dear Alan, dear Jurgen,
>
> There is something to that effect in all 'oroginal'
versions
of
Besard's instructions, that is: 1603 and 1617. I do not
remember
if
ye
text englished contains the passage...
>
> Best
>
> Joachim
>
>
> Originalnachricht
> Von: Alain Veylit
> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 6. MÃÃà �rz 2019 04:32
> Antwort an: [7][19][19]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
> Cc: Lute net
> Betreff: [LUTE] Re: right hand technique -- bending the
pinky
>
>
> Jurgen,
>
> It's been a while and I was quoting from memory... but
I
am
sure
I
saw
> it somewhere - perhaps the instructions translated in
English
in
the
> Varietie of Lute Lessons?
>
> Or maybe the use of dots in Thesaurus Harmonicus ...
>
> Alain
>
> On 3/4/19 11:11 PM, Jurgen Frenz wrote:
>> It would be totally excellent if you'd find out where
Besard
made
that suggestion.
>> Thanks,
>> jurgen
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------
>> "There is a voice that doesn't use words. Listen."
>>
>> JalÃâl ad-DÃâà �n Muhammad Rumi
>>
>> à �à �à �à �à �à �Ã
� Original Message Ã
�à �à �à �à �Ã
�à �.
>> On Tuesday, March 5, 2019 10:40 AM, Alain Veylit
<[8][20][20]al...@musickshandmade.com> wrote:
>>
>>> That's odd because I remember O'Dette's advice for
the
left-hand
pinky:
>>> plant it vertically on the string instead of laying
it
flat
-
which
>>> requires more effort. That should mean his left-hand
little
finger
can
>>> bend... Not a conclusive proof for the right hand
little
finger
but
...
>>> For Renaissance lute, if I am not mistaken, the
right-hand
little
finger
>>> is supposed to be parallel to the sound board, just
lightly
brushing on
>>> it, and it should remain extended.
>>>
>>> Anybody with a good explanation as to how additional
basses
would
alter
>>> the right hand position? If I recall, Besard still
argued
for
a
mixed
>>> technique, thumb-under for fast runs and thumb over
for
whatever
else
>>> (chords). I think it is logical that increasing
dedication
of
the
thumb
>>> to the bass strings does account for the shift in
right-hand
position,
>>> and when you think about it, it is not a small
revolution
in
music
>>> history...
>>>
>>> On 3/4/19 7:12 PM, Richard Brook wrote:
>>>
>>>> Heard via the late great Pat OBrien Paul O'Dette
couldn't
bend
that finger down by itself. Though I think Pat said in my
case
the
fault was in my head, not in the stars.
>>>> D ick Brook
>>>>
>>>>> On Mar 4, 2019, at 6:58 PM, Alain Veylit
[9][21][21]al...@musickshandmade.com wrote:
>>>>> Good one Rainer - Anybody remembers the title of
that
American
series from the 60s-70s where aliens live among us in
disguise,
and
the
only sure way to identify them is that they cannot bend
their
little
finger?
>>>>> Worth mentioning also about right-hand technique,
Jimmy
Hendrix
playing with his teeth - frustrated leftie, you think?
>>>>> On 3/4/19 12:19 PM, Rainer wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 04.03.2019 17:11, Alain Veylit wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And then, there is Django Reinhardt... one big
exception
to
the
rules of guitar playing. Experimenting with various
techniques
has
probably always been a popular habit among musicians,
whether
by
choice
or force.
>>>>>> And Aguado used the 4th finger of the right hand.
Perhaps
he
was
an alien :)
>>>>>> Rainer
>>>>>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>>>>>>
[1][10][22][22]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
>
>
>
>
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