tiorbino

[LUTE] Re: live lute performances recorded with a zoom h2

2008-03-17 Thread howard posner

On Mar 17, 2008, at 2:55 PM, igor . wrote:
  diego ( i hope you are not italian )


 is there any recorded tiorbino ?

Lee Santana and Wolfgang Katschner play two Castaldi theorbo/tiorbino  
duets on Feast of San Rocco Venice 1608 (Sony s2k 66254)

Vincent Dumestre and Massimo Moscardo play four Castaldi theorbo/ 
tiorbino duets (there's one more using harp instead of tiorbino) on  
Le Musiche di Bellerofonte Castaldi (Alpha 900). Theorbo and tiorbino  
are also the continuo section for the song Steffania persuasiva.


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[LUTE] 14 Course Powered Tiorbino

2017-03-05 Thread sterling price

So, as I did 23 years ago I took my old attiorbato and tuned it as a Tiorbino 
(that's an octave theorbo by the way). You have not lived till you've heard De 
Vissee on a solo Tiorbino. This very spiffy instrument can be used wherever a 
solo theorbo is used and it has the added advantage of extreme portability. 
I've been sitting here in the back seat of my Mustang playing theorbo music 
during work breaks. A Tiorbino sounds very distinctive in the lute world. It 
sounds very much like a small harp. Please do thyself a favor and try putting 
Tiorbino strings on thy attiorbato.
---Sterling

Sent from my iPad



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Re: Tiorbino composers?

2004-03-25 Thread Howard Posner

Alain's response prompts me to clarify my question.  I'm not looking for
music that can be played on a tiorbino (I suppose any Italian or French
theorbo piece could be played on a tiorbino).  I'm asking whether any
composer other than Castaldi specifically designated music for tiorbino.  I
think the answer is no, but I came across some remark, in the latest Grove
if memory serves, that Castaldi's pieces are among the few for tiorbino,
which is either a statement that that there are others, or typical academic
mealy-mouthed caution.

Alain Veylit wrote:

 I just ordered the Castaldi last week through interlibrary loan. Is it
 worth anything?

If you mean the Capricci a due stromenti cioè tiorba e tiorbino etc., it
has a wealth of fascinating music that really explores the theorbo's
possibilities.  But much of it is demanding technically, and can be a
brain-frying experience for the neophyte theorbist.

HP

iconografia sarmatica

2004-06-04 Thread Roman Turovsky

I have some fabulous new pictures in the REGIONAL iconography section,
including a Cossack with a tiorbino
at
http://polyhymnion.org/torban
RT

[LUTE] Tiorbino

2012-05-19 Thread sterling price

   Hi all-
   Many years ago I strung my attiorbato as a tiorbino and it worked quite
   well. I only kept it that way for a while though as I wanted to try
   other things. Anyway I was thinking of doing it again and I have a few
   questions about tiorbinos. Were they always single strung or ever
   double? Mine was single, but I think double would be interesting and I
   could do that. I think the only known music that specifies tiorbino is
   the theorbo/tiorbino duets of Castaldi, but I have no one to play these
   with so I would be playing solo music. By the way my attiorbato is
   57/85cm and I know that real tiorbinos are smaller.
   Any thoughts on string type/material?

   --Sterling

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[LUTE] tiorbino

2014-02-26 Thread Bruno Fournier

dear collective wisdom,

I am thinking of stringing my Colin Everette small archlute as a
tiorbino.  As some of you might know, Colin built many renaissance
lutes on the tiorbino model, with 13 or 14 courses but was stringing
it as regular Renaissance tuning with the diapasons in the same
tessitura as the bass strings of a renaissance.,

has there ever been a concensus on how the tiorbino was strung? pitch
? I seem to remember some discussion on this, whereas the first 3
courses where at standard renaissane pitch in A, and  starting from
4th course down, the pitch was up an octave.



thank you



-- 

Bruno Cognyl-Fournier

www.estavel.org



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[LUTE] Re: Tiorbino

2019-11-18 Thread Susan Price

   I've had a tiorbino before and I find it awesome for playing solo
   theorbo music. It sounds muck like a small harp. I even played De Visee
   on it and twas divine.

   Susan

    Original message 
   From: yuval.dvo...@posteo.de
   Date: 11/17/19 9:47 AM (GMT-07:00)
   To: Lute 
   Subject: [LUTE] Tiorbino

   Hello all,
   I was offered a Tiorbino, and I'm wondering what one can do with it
   (except of playing Bellerofonte-Castaldi): Are there any proofs that it
   was used for playing solo instead of a big theorbo or for playing
   continuo?
   And is there any literature about it apart from the article by Nocerino
   (2005)?
   Thanks and regards a usual :-)
   Yuval
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[LUTE] Tiorbino

2019-11-17 Thread yuval . dvoran


Hello all,

I was offered a Tiorbino, and I'm wondering what one can do with it 
(except of playing Bellerofonte-Castaldi): Are there any proofs that it 
was used for playing solo instead of a big theorbo or for playing 
continuo?
And is there any literature about it apart from the article by Nocerino 
(2005)?


Thanks and regards a usual :-)
Yuval



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[LUTE] Re: Tiorbino

2019-11-20 Thread Alain Veylit

Doesn't Besard's Novus Partus ask for a tiorbino for some of the 
ensemble pieces?



On 11/20/19 9:12 AM, Richard Brook wrote:

I agree with Howard

If there is a free (or quite inexpensive) tiorbino around I would like to put 
in a request.

Dick Brook


On Nov 19, 2019, at 3:26 AM, howard posner  wrote:


On Nov 17, 2019, at 8:47 AM, yuval.dvo...@posteo.de wrote:

I was offered a Tiorbino, and I'm wondering what one can do with it (except of 
playing Bellerofonte-Castaldi): Are there any proofs that it was used for 
playing solo instead of a big theorbo or for playing continuo?

Probably no “proofs,” but maybe you’re asking the wrong question.

The question I would ask is, “If I owned a tiorbino in 1642, what would I do with 
it?"

Or for present purposes it might be better asked, “If the tiorbino wasn’t used 
for playing solo theorbo music and wasn’t used for continuo, why would anyone 
pay good money for one?” Even Bellerofonte Castaldi would have thought it 
pointless to have an instrument that was useful only for a few duets.

I have no idea how many tiorbinos existed in the 17th century, but the idea 
that someone would have one and not use it for continuo or solo music makes no 
sense. Anyone who owned a tiorbino would have played solo music and continuo on 
it, because the alternative was keeping it in a closet 362 days out of the year.

It’s not clear to me what you mean by “I was offered a tiorbino,” but if 
someone wants to give it to you and you decide you don’t want it, give that 
person my email address and say I’d be happy to take it.





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[LUTE] Re: tiorbino

2014-02-26 Thread R. Mattes

On Wed, 26 Feb 2014 14:14:47 -0500, Bruno Fournier wrote
 dear collective wisdom,

 I am thinking of stringing my Colin Everette small archlute as a
 tiorbino.  As some of you might know, Colin built many renaissance
 lutes on the tiorbino model, with 13 or 14 courses but was stringing
 it as regular Renaissance tuning with the diapasons in the same
 tessitura as the bass strings of a renaissance.,

 has there ever been a concensus on how the tiorbino was strung? pitch
 ?

Well, if by 'tiorbino' you refer to the instrument needed for Castaldi's
duos then it needs to be strung an octave higher than a double-reentrant
theorbo, so you need the first _two_ strings like an renaissance lute in
an, and then everything up an octave. This only works with very short
lutes, the third string at high b natural is almost as high as a
renaissance treble lutes top.

 I seem to remember some discussion on this, whereas the first 3
 courses where at standard renaissane pitch in A, and  starting from
 4th course down, the pitch was up an octave.

That would create a triple reentrant instrument. Nice idea, but it won't
work for Castaldi.


 Cheers, Ralf Mattes



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[LUTE] Tiorbino

2020-08-05 Thread Stefan Olof Lundgren

--08a6ac05ac1ff9ec
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Dear Lutenetters,
a costumer wrote to me and asked if my transcription of Bachs Cellosuites
could be played on a tiorbino. "Do you think your transcription is suitable
for a Tiorbino tuned like a Theorbo (in A but an octave higher)? It has 14
strings with the 3rd string tuned highest (re-entrant).  String length is
51cm to the first pegbox and 90 cm to the second.  Enclosed was this photo,
with a link to the maker:  http://www.luthier.org/.

[image: tiorbino_copy.jpg]
I made a short search on the internet and found these links:
https://home.cs.dartmouth.edu/~lsa/links/Tiorbino/PlanDim.jpg
[image: PlanDim.jpg]

http://www.claviantica.com/Publications_files/The_Tiorbino/The_tiorbino.htm
"As far as is known to the author the collection of music in the *Capricci
a due stromenti cioe Tiorba e Tiorbino*, (Modena: 1622) by Bellerofonte
Castaldi (1580-1649) is the only example of printed music which mentions
this instrument specifically"  Francesco Nocerino
[image: capricci_tablature.jpg]


The costumer also included a link to a you tube video:
HiÃ©ronymus Kapsberger (1580-1651) - Corrente Prima. Performed by Albane
Imbs - tiorbino
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aBxMFE5Sg3g

Has someone of you out there any ideas about the instrument Tiorbino?

Best wishes
Stefan



Lundgren Edition
www.luteonline.se

--08a6ac05ac1ff9ec
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Dear 
Lutenetters,a costumerÂ 
wrote to me and asked if my transcription of BachsÂ Cellosuites could be played 
on a tiorbino. Do
 you think your transcription is suitable for a Tiorbino tuned like a Theorbo 
(in A but an octave higher)?Â It
 has 14 strings with the 3rd string tuned highest (re-entrant).Â  String length 
is 51cm to the first pegbox and 90 cm to the second.Â
 Â Enclosed was this photo, with a link to the maker:Â Â http://www.luthier.org/; 
target="_blank" 
style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">http://www.luthier.org/.Â
 Â Â
 I made a short search on the internet and found 
these links:https://home.cs.dartmouth.edu/~lsa/links/Tiorbino/PlanDim.jpg; 
target="_blank">https://home.cs.dartmouth.edu/~lsa/links/Tiorbino/PlanDim.jpgÂ
 http://www.claviantica.com/Publications_files/The_Tiorbino/The_tiorbino.htm;
 
target="_blank">http://www.claviantica.com/Publications_files/The_Tiorbino/The_tiorbino.htmAs far as 
is known to the author the collection of music in theÂ Capricci a due 
stromenti cioe Tiorba e Tiorbino, (Modena: 
1622) by Bellerofonte Castaldi (1580-1649) is the!
  only example of printed music which mentions this instrument 
specificallyÂ Â Francesco NocerinoÂ
 Â The costumer 
also included a link to a you tubeÂ video:HiÃ©ronymus 
Kapsberger (1580-1651) - Corrente Prima. Performed !
 by  Albane Imbs - tiorbinoÂ Â https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aBxMFE5Sg3g; 
style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small" 
target="_blank">https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aBxMFE5Sg3gÂ Â Has 
someone of you out there any ideas about the instrument Tiorbino?Best 
wishesStefanLundgren Editionhttp://www.luteonline.se; 
target="_blank">www.luteonline.se

--08a6ac05ac1ff9ec--

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[LUTE] Re: Tiorbino

2019-11-20 Thread Richard Brook

I agree with Howard

If there is a free (or quite inexpensive) tiorbino around I would like to put 
in a request.

Dick Brook

> On Nov 19, 2019, at 3:26 AM, howard posner  wrote:
> 
>> On Nov 17, 2019, at 8:47 AM, yuval.dvo...@posteo.de wrote:
>> 
>> I was offered a Tiorbino, and I'm wondering what one can do with it (except 
>> of playing Bellerofonte-Castaldi): Are there any proofs that it was used for 
>> playing solo instead of a big theorbo or for playing continuo?
> 
> Probably no “proofs,” but maybe you’re asking the wrong question. 
> 
> The question I would ask is, “If I owned a tiorbino in 1642, what would I do 
> with it?"
> 
> Or for present purposes it might be better asked, “If the tiorbino wasn’t 
> used for playing solo theorbo music and wasn’t used for continuo, why would 
> anyone pay good money for one?” Even Bellerofonte Castaldi would have thought 
> it pointless to have an instrument that was useful only for a few duets. 
> 
> I have no idea how many tiorbinos existed in the 17th century, but the idea 
> that someone would have one and not use it for continuo or solo music makes 
> no sense. Anyone who owned a tiorbino would have played solo music and 
> continuo on it, because the alternative was keeping it in a closet 362 days 
> out of the year.
> 
> It’s not clear to me what you mean by “I was offered a tiorbino,” but if 
> someone wants to give it to you and you decide you don’t want it, give that 
> person my email address and say I’d be happy to take it. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Tiorbino

2020-06-16 Thread Mathias Rösel

   Dear Hive Mind,

   Are there a surviving 17^th century tiorbinos? I poked in your
   archives, but couldn't seem to find hints.

   A tiorbino is mentioned on Steven Barber's and Sandi Harris's homepage
   as "one of the best and most convincing surviving examples of a
   tiorbino" (Hieber / Pfanzelt, Geneva, MusÃ©e d'art et d'histoire, Nr
   IM80).

   It says "one of the best"âare there other surviving tiorbinos? What are
   their string lengths? What are their dispositions (6:8, 7:7, 8:6)?
   Where are they being preserved?

   Mathias

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[LUTE] Re: Tiorbino - surprising new evidence

2008-02-05 Thread Rob Lute

Diego, did you read the essay?

Rob

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[LUTE] Re: Tiorbino - surprising new evidence

2008-02-05 Thread Rob Lute

Yes, Diego, what is the introduction by Castaldi left out of the Minkoff
print?

Rob

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[LUTE] Re: Tiorbino

2019-11-18 Thread Jurgen Frenz

If I understand it well the tiorbini is tuned one octave higher than a standard 
theorbo - hence you can play anything for theorbo, if you don't mind historic 
accuracy but just pure fun.
Jurgen


--
“Close your eyes. Fall in love. Stay there.”

Jalāl ad-Dīn Muhammad Rumi

‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
On Monday, November 18, 2019 3:50 PM, Susan Price 
 wrote:

> I've had a tiorbino before and I find it awesome for playing solo
> theorbo music. It sounds muck like a small harp. I even played De Visee
> on it and twas divine.
>
> Susan
>
>  Original message 
> From: yuval.dvo...@posteo.de
> Date: 11/17/19 9:47 AM (GMT-07:00)
> To: Lute lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
> Subject: [LUTE] Tiorbino
>
> Hello all,
> I was offered a Tiorbino, and I'm wondering what one can do with it
> (except of playing Bellerofonte-Castaldi): Are there any proofs that it
> was used for playing solo instead of a big theorbo or for playing
> continuo?
> And is there any literature about it apart from the article by Nocerino
> (2005)?
> Thanks and regards a usual :-)
> Yuval
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: live lute performances recorded with a zoom h2

2008-03-17 Thread igor .

-- Forwarded message --
From: igor . [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon, Mar 17, 2008 at 10:54 PM
Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: live lute performances recorded with a zoom h2
To: Diego Cantalupi [EMAIL PROTECTED]


 diego ( i hope you are not italian ),

is there any recorded tiorbino ?
i would love to get anything featuring tiorbino...actually never heard it

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[LUTE] Re: 14 Course Powered Tiorbino

2017-03-05 Thread Ed Durbrow


> I may do a video of De visee on the Tiorbino recorded in the back seat of my 
> mustang for a world first.


You definitely should do that. Looking forward to it.

Ed Durbrow
Saitama, Japan
http://www.youtube.com/user/edurbrow?feature=watch
https://soundcloud.com/ed-durbrow
http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/








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[LUTE] Re: Tiorbino

2019-11-20 Thread Bruno Cognyl-Fournier

   I own a Colin Everett small archlute. 56.5/104..which I guess you could
   consider a tiorbino, although I have never strung it as such.   I tune
   it in standard renaissance lute tuning, and I find if quite useful to
   play everything from 6 course music to 13 course zamboni. Very easy for
   my small hands and stretch (I have one atrophied pinky finger on my
   left hand   due to Dupuytren disease).
   Bruno

   Le mer. 20 nov. 2019 12 h 18 p.m., Richard Brook
   <[1]richa...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> a ÃÂ©crit  :

 I agree with Howard
 If there is a free (or quite inexpensive) tiorbino around I would
 like to put in a request.
 Dick Brook
 > On Nov 19, 2019, at 3:26 AM, howard posner
 <[2]howardpos...@ca.rr.com> wrote:
 >
 >> On Nov 17, 2019, at 8:47 AM, [3]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de wrote:
 >>
     >> I was offered a Tiorbino, and I'm wondering what one can do with
 it (except of playing Bellerofonte-Castaldi): Are there any proofs
 that it was used for playing solo instead of a big theorbo or for
 playing continuo?
 >
 > Probably no "proofs," but maybe you're asking the wrong question.
 >
     > The question I would ask is, "If I owned a tiorbino in 1642, what
 would I do with it?"
 >
     > Or for present purposes it might be better asked, "If the tiorbino
 wasn't used for playing solo theorbo music and wasn't used for
 continuo, why would anyone pay good money for one?" Even
 Bellerofonte Castaldi would have thought it pointless to have an
 instrument that was useful only for a few duets.
 >
 > I have no idea how many tiorbinos existed in the 17th century, but
 the idea that someone would have one and not use it for continuo or
 solo music makes no sense. Anyone who owned a tiorbino would have
 played solo music and continuo on it, because the alternative was
 keeping it in a closet 362 days out of the year.
 >
 > It's not clear to me what you mean by "I was offered a tiorbino,"
 but if someone wants to give it to you and you decide you don't want
 it, give that person my email address and say I'd be happy to take
 it.
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 > To get on or off this list see list information at
 > [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. mailto:richa...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
   2. mailto:howardpos...@ca.rr.com
   3. mailto:yuval.dvo...@posteo.de
   4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Tiorbino

2019-11-19 Thread howard posner

> On Nov 17, 2019, at 8:47 AM, yuval.dvo...@posteo.de wrote:
> 
> I was offered a Tiorbino, and I'm wondering what one can do with it (except 
> of playing Bellerofonte-Castaldi): Are there any proofs that it was used for 
> playing solo instead of a big theorbo or for playing continuo?

Probably no “proofs,” but maybe you’re asking the wrong question. 

The question I would ask is, “If I owned a tiorbino in 1642, what would I do 
with it?"

Or for present purposes it might be better asked, “If the tiorbino wasn’t used 
for playing solo theorbo music and wasn’t used for continuo, why would anyone 
pay good money for one?” Even Bellerofonte Castaldi would have thought it 
pointless to have an instrument that was useful only for a few duets. 

I have no idea how many tiorbinos existed in the 17th century, but the idea 
that someone would have one and not use it for continuo or solo music makes no 
sense. Anyone who owned a tiorbino would have played solo music and continuo on 
it, because the alternative was keeping it in a closet 362 days out of the year.

It’s not clear to me what you mean by “I was offered a tiorbino,” but if 
someone wants to give it to you and you decide you don’t want it, give that 
person my email address and say I’d be happy to take it. 

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[LUTE] Re: Tiorbino

2019-11-18 Thread Tristan von Neumann


What's with this thing about "historic accuracy" anyway?


I am pretty sure people back then weren't half as dogmatic as
historically informed musicians today.

Depictions of ensembles often seem quite random in their choice of
instruments.

Also, what's the point of this scene:

"Hey guys, I have copied some new pieces for theorbo!"

- "Sorry dude, I only have a tiorbino. My theorbo is in the workshop.
Better luck next time!"

Music is better than no music.

So if you have an instrument that can play the pieces in question, then
use it...

I play 10 course music all the time on my 7c. lute. Sacrilege? I think not.

Back in the day, if someone had a smaller lute, they would still be
interested in the latest music.



On 18.11.19 14:10, Jurgen Frenz wrote:

If I understand it well the tiorbini is tuned one octave higher than a standard 
theorbo - hence you can play anything for theorbo, if you don't mind historic 
accuracy but just pure fun.
Jurgen


--
“Close your eyes. Fall in love. Stay there.”

Jalāl ad-Dīn Muhammad Rumi

‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
On Monday, November 18, 2019 3:50 PM, Susan Price 
 wrote:


I've had a tiorbino before and I find it awesome for playing solo
theorbo music. It sounds muck like a small harp. I even played De Visee
on it and twas divine.

Susan

 Original message 
From: yuval.dvo...@posteo.de
Date: 11/17/19 9:47 AM (GMT-07:00)
To: Lute lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [LUTE] Tiorbino

Hello all,
I was offered a Tiorbino, and I'm wondering what one can do with it
(except of playing Bellerofonte-Castaldi): Are there any proofs that it
was used for playing solo instead of a big theorbo or for playing
continuo?
And is there any literature about it apart from the article by Nocerino
(2005)?
Thanks and regards a usual :-)
Yuval
To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Tiorbino

2020-08-05 Thread Mathias Rösel

   Hi Stefan,
   there's another print, Novus Partus by Besard (1617), that contains
   music for the tiorbino.
   Anything that is feasible on the theorbo should also be feasible on the
   tiorbino, I suppose.
   And I love that video by Albane Imbs.
   Mathias
 __

   Gesendet mit der [1]Telekom Mail App
   --- Original-Nachricht ---
   Von: Stefan Olof Lundgren
   Betreff: [LUTE] Tiorbino
   Datum: 05.08.2020, 13:49 Uhr
   An: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu

   --08a6ac05ac1ff9ec
   Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
   Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
   Dear Lutenetters,
   a costumer wrote to me and asked if my transcription of Bachs
   Cellosuites
   could be played on a tiorbino. "Do you think your transcription is
   suitable
   for a Tiorbino tuned like a Theorbo (in A but an octave higher)? It has
   14
   strings with the 3rd string tuned highest (re-entrant). String length
   is
   51cm to the first pegbox and 90 cm to the second. Enclosed was this
   photo,
   with a link to the maker: [2]http://www.luthier.org/.
   [image: tiorbino_[3]copy.jpg]
   I made a short search on the internet and found these links:
   [4]https://home.cs.dartmouth.edu/~lsa/links/Tiorbino/PlanDim.jpg
   [image: [5]PlanDim.jpg]
   [6]http://www.claviantica.com/Publications_files/The_Tiorbino/The_tiorb
   ino.htm
   "As far as is known to the author the collection of music in the
   *Capricci
   a due stromenti cioe Tiorba e Tiorbino*, (Modena: 1622) by Bellerofonte
   Castaldi (1580-1649) is the only example of printed music which
   mentions
   this instrument specifically" Francesco Nocerino
   [image: capricci_[7]tablature.jpg]
   The costumer also included a link to a you tube video:
   HiÃ¯Â¿Â½Ã¯Â¿Â½ronymus Kapsberger (1580-1651) - Corrente Prima. Performed by
   Albane
   Imbs - tiorbino
   [8]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aBxMFE5Sg3g
   Has someone of you out there any ideas about the instrument Tiorbino?
   Best wishes
   Stefan
   Lundgren Edition
   [9]www.luteonline.se
   --08a6ac05ac1ff9ec
   Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
   Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
   Dear
   Lutenetters,a
   costumerÃ¯Â¿Â½Ã¯Â¿Â½wrote to me and asked if my transcription of
   BachsÃ¯Â¿Â½Ã¯Â¿Â½Cellosuites could be played on a tiorbino. Do you think your transcription is suitable for a Tiorbino
   tuned like a Theorbo (in A but an octave higher)?Ã¯Â¿Â½Ã¯Â¿Â½It has 14 strings with the 3rd string tuned highest
   (re-entrant).Ã¯Â¿Â½Ã¯Â¿Â½ String length is 51cm to the first pegbox and 90 cm
   to the second.Ã¯Â¿Â½Ã¯Â¿Â½Ã¯Â¿Â½Ã¯Â¿Â½Enclosed was this photo, with a 
link to
   the maker:Ã¯Â¿Â½Ã¯Â¿Â½Ã¯Â¿Â½Ã¯Â¿Â½http://www.luthier.org/;; target="_blank"
   style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">[11]http
   ://www.luthier.org/.Ã¯Â¿Â½Ã¯Â¿Â½Ã¯Â¿Â½Ã¯Â¿Â½Ã¯Â¿Â½Ã¯Â¿Â½I made a short search on the internet and
   found these links:https://home.cs.dartmouth.edu/~lsa/links/Tiorbino/PlanDim.jpg
   ";
   target="_blank">[14]https://home.cs.dartmouth.edu/~lsa/links/Tiorbino/P
   lanDim.jpg;Ã¯Â¿Â½Ã¯Â¿Â½http://www.claviantica.com/Publications_files/The_Tiorbino/Th
   e_tiorbino.htm";
   target="_blank">[17]http://www.claviantica.com/Publications_files/The_T
   iorbino/The_tiorbino.htmAs far as is known to the author the collection of
   music in theÃ¯Â¿Â½Ã¯Â¿Â½Capricci a due stromenti cioe Tiorba e Tiorbino,
   (Modena: 1622) by Bellerofonte Castaldi (1580-1649) is the!
   only example of printed music which mentions this instrument
   specificallyÃ¯Â¿Â½Ã¯Â¿Â½Ã¯Â¿Â½Ã¯Â¿Â½Francesco NocerinoÃ¯Â¿Â½Ã¯Â¿Â½Ã¯Â¿Â½Ã¯Â¿Â½The
   costumer also included a link to a you tubeÃ¯Â¿Â½Ã¯Â¿Â½video:HiÃ¯Â¿Â½Ã¯Â¿
   Â½ronymus Kapsberger (1580-1651) - Corrente Prima. Performed !
   by Albane Imbs - tiorbinoÃ¯Â¿Â½Ã¯Â¿Â½Ã¯Â¿Â½Ã¯Â¿Â½https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aBxMFE5Sg3g;;
   style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"
   target="_blank">[20]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aBxMFE5Sg3g;Ã¯Â¿Â½Ã¯Â¿
   Â½Ã¯Â¿Â½Ã¯Â¿Â½Ha
   s someone of you out there any ideas about the instrument
   Tiorbino?Be
   st wishesSt
   efanLundgren
   Editionhttp://www.luteonline.se;;
   target="_blank">[22]www.luteonline.se;
   --08a6ac05ac1ff9ec--
   --
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [23]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. 
https://kommunikationsdienste.t-online.de/redirects/email_app_android_sendmail_footer
   2. http://www.luthier.org/
   3. http://copy.jpg/
   4. https://home.cs.dartmouth.edu/~lsa/links/Tiorbino/PlanDim.jpg
   5. http://PlanDim.jpg/
   6. 
http://www.claviantica.com/Publications_files/The_Tiorbino/The_tiorbino.htm
   7. http://tablature.jpg/
   8. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aBxMFE5Sg3g
   9. http://www.luteonlin

[LUTE] Tiorbino - surprising new evidence

2008-02-05 Thread Rob Lute

I had a very pleasant evening on Saturday with my harpsichord-making friend,
Grant O'Brien, and his friends, including a short recital on one of his
harpsichords by Lucy Carolan, a first-rate player. Grant and I got to
talking about lute and harpsichord making in Italy, and he revealed a couple
of interesting points:

1. all Italian harpsichords had fir soundboards, not spruce, as found north
of the Alps. Did I know of any fir-soundboarded lutes? Well, I didn't. Can
anyone contribute something here?

2. the tiorbino: here is a fascinating article from Grant's website,
discussing a keyboard instrument called the tiorbino, apparently gut-strung,
like the lautenclavier:
http://www.claviantica.com/Publications_files/The_Tiorbino/The_tiorbino.htm -
I love the part where a buyer asks the maker to build another one if the
first one goes out of tune! A great idea, albeit somewhat expensive...

Although these are keyboard topics, I'm sure they will be of interest to
some here.

Rob MacKillop

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[LUTE] Rare chance to hear Castaldi in Portland

2014-02-12 Thread John Lenti

   Dear Lute friends,
   My esteemed colleague Hideki Yamaya and I will present a program of
   Italian lute duets, Saturday, February  16, 7:30 PM at the Community
   Music Center in Portland, OR ([1]3350 SE Francis Street, Portland,
   Oregon 97202)
   Besides the central element of the Castaldi theorbo-tiorbino duets,
   we'll also feature the Francesco/Matelart duets for unequal lutes, plus
   accompanied and unaccompanied guitar and theorbo music.
   The blurb, if you feel like sharing and helping to get the word out:
   CAPRICCI A DUE STROMENTI: 17th-Century Duets for Lutes and Theorbos
   John Lenti, lute and theorbo
   Hideki Yamaya, lute, tiorbino, and Baroque guitar
   Hideki Yamaya of Musica Maestrale will be joined by John Lenti,
   lutenist for Portland Baroque Orchestra, for an exciting program of
   Italian early baroque music for lutes and theorbos. Of particular
   interest are duets by Bellerofonte Castaldi for theorbo and tiorbino,
   or octave-pitched theorbo, an extremely rare instrument. Other
   composers represented include Alessandro Piccinini and Johann
   Hieronymus Kapsberger.
   $14 general; $12 students/seniors
   Best,
   John

   --

References

   1. http:///


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[LUTE] Re: 14 Course Powered Tiorbino

2017-03-05 Thread Anthony Hart

   -- Forwarded message -
   From: Anthony Hart <[1]anthony.hart1...@gmail.com>
   Date: Sun, Mar 5, 2017 at 2:17 PM
   Subject: Re: [LUTE] 14 Course Powered Tiorbino
   To: sterling price <[2]spiffys84...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   I read with interest your post to the Lute discussion group.I have been
   thinking of doing the same with my attiorbato. I have problems in
   calculating the correct   strings. What actual tuning do you use?
   Best wishes
   Anthony Hart
   2017-03-05 13:31 GMT+01:00 sterling price
   <[3]spiffys84...@cs.dartmouth.edu>:

 So, as I did 23 years ago I took my old attiorbato and tuned it as a
 Tiorbino (that's an octave theorbo by the way). You have not lived
 till you've heard De Vissee on a solo Tiorbino. This very spiffy
 instrument can be used wherever a solo theorbo is used and it has
 the added advantage of extreme portability. I've been sitting here
 in the back seat of my Mustang playing theorbo music during work
 breaks. A Tiorbino sounds very distinctive in the lute world. It
 sounds very much like a small harp. Please do thyself a favor and
 try putting Tiorbino strings on thy attiorbato.
 ---Sterling
 Sent from my iPad
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --
   __
   Anthony Hart  MSc, LLCM,ALCM.
   Musicologist  and  Independent  Researcher
   Highrise Court 'B', Apt 2, Tigne' Street, Sliema, SLM3174, MALTA
   Mob: +356 9944 9552.
   e-mail:  [5]resea...@antoninoreggio.com; web:
   [6]www.monsignor-reggio.com
   NEW  Publications:  EDIZIONE  ANTONINO  REGGIO
   -  [7]www.edizionear.com
   for information and special offer

   --

   __
   Anthony Hart  MSc, LLCM,ALCM.
   Musicologist  and  Independent  Researcher
   Highrise Court 'B', Apt 2, Tigne' Street, Sliema, SLM3174, MALTA
   Mob: +356 9944 9552.
   e-mail:  [8]resea...@antoninoreggio.com; web:
   [9]www.monsignor-reggio.com
   NEW  Publications:  EDIZIONE  ANTONINO  REGGIO
   -  [10]www.edizionear.com
   for information and special offer

   --

References

   1. mailto:anthony.hart1...@gmail.com
   2. mailto:spiffys84...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   3. mailto:spiffys84...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   5. mailto:resea...@antoninoreggio.com
   6. http://www.monsignor-reggio.com/
   7. http://www.edizionear.com/
   8. mailto:resea...@antoninoreggio.com
   9. http://www.monsignor-reggio.com/
  10. http://www.edizionear.com/

[LUTE] Re: Pittoni's theorbo?

2008-02-09 Thread Martyn Hodgson

To play an octave higher.
   
  Please read my earlier messages:  double reentrant was for large theorbos AND 
for those instruments strung at a significantly higher pitch standard 
fespecially or solo music eg in D (as Talbot's Lesser French Theorbo at 76cm NB 
note the word 'Lesser' for this size of French theorbo) or, like the tiorbino, 
an octave higher.
   
  MH 

Diego Cantalupi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  From: Martyn Hodgson 
 In short, if you can you should just detune the first course and only 
 detune the next if the second string is likely to break.

So why making a double reentrant tuning on a tiorbino?


Diego 





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-
 Sent from Yahoo! #45; a smarter inbox.
--

[LUTE] Re: live lute performances recorded with a zoom h2

2008-03-18 Thread Jean-Marie Poirier

True, Igor. Massimo Moscardo, who plays tiorbino for this Alpha cd, is a name 
that sounds very, very French indeed ;-) !

Best wishes,

Gianmaria, francese



=== 18-03-2008 07:13:30 ===

-- Forwarded message --
From: igor . [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 7:13 AM
Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: live lute performances recorded with a zoom h2
To: howard posner [EMAIL PROTECTED]


Thanks Howard,
i know Castaldi on Alpha and somehow i thought they use small Arcileuto
tuned as Tiorbino...i mean they are French

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= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
  
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://poirierjm.free.fr
18-03-2008

Re: iconografia sarmatica

2004-06-04 Thread Roman Turovsky

And a pair tunes for Baroque Lute as well...
http://polyhymnion.org/torban/torban4.html
RT
 ... As well as a new item for Renaissance Lute: Sarmatica III, in chapter
 4.
 RT
 I have some fabulous new pictures in the REGIONAL iconography section,
 including a Cossack with a tiorbino
 at
 http://polyhymnion.org/torban
 RT

[LUTE] Re: Tiorbino - surprising new evidence

2008-02-05 Thread Jerzy Zak

In fact my first performance of Castaldi's Capricci (in the same  
programma with Pittoni) was with the tiorbino part played on  
harpsichord - as it now appeares not to far from historical practice.  
Very interesting, thanks, Rob.

Jurek
___

On 2008-02-05, at 10:55, Rob Lute wrote:

I had a very pleasant evening on Saturday with my harpsichord- 
making friend,
Grant O'Brien, and his friends, including a short recital on one of  
his

harpsichords by Lucy Carolan, a first-rate player. Grant and I got to
talking about lute and harpsichord making in Italy, and he revealed  
a couple

of interesting points:

1. all Italian harpsichords had fir soundboards, not spruce, as  
found north
of the Alps. Did I know of any fir-soundboarded lutes? Well, I  
didn't. Can

anyone contribute something here?

2. the tiorbino: here is a fascinating article from Grant's website,
discussing a keyboard instrument called the tiorbino, apparently  
gut-strung,

like the lautenclavier:
http://www.claviantica.com/Publications_files/The_Tiorbino/ 
The_tiorbino.htm -
I love the part where a buyer asks the maker to build another one  
if the

first one goes out of tune! A great idea, albeit somewhat expensive...

Although these are keyboard topics, I'm sure they will be of  
interest to

some here.

Rob MacKillop





To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Tiorbino - surprising new evidence

2008-02-05 Thread Jerzy Zak



On 2008-02-05, at 14:21, tiorba wrote:

In fact my first performance of Castaldi's Capricci (in the same  
programma with Pittoni) was with the tiorbino part played on   
harpsichord - as it now appeares not to far from historical  
practice. Very interesting, thanks, Rob.

Jurek


It's indeed very far!
Like playing a vocal aria with the vox humana of an organ, or  
thinking about sun and sea playing with unda maris...
It's really clear what is a tiorbino for Castaldi. Not only from  
the picture, but also from the introduction, unfortunately lacking  
in the Minkoff reprint...


Diego


Diego,
Changing instrumentation in music of the time is as natural as  
breathing. Almost all title pages of printed music testify to it. Of  
course I would do better using some other instrument strung in gut,  
say another lute, harp or ...a keyboard instrument called tiorbino,  
providing I'd know of it. But my buddy played ordinary (oh, how  
ordinary) italian cembalo, so what? But I'll tell you more, there is  
a biger scandal approaching or already appeared - Kenneth Gilbert's  
keyboard edition of the lute and theorbo music of Kapsperger... I can  
imagine a battle on this liste like the one with Sting. ¡Ay, caramba!


Jurek
PS: but the introduction to Castaldi I'd love to know, of course!
_




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[LUTE] Re: Pittoni's theorbo?

2008-02-08 Thread Diego Cantalupi


From: Martyn Hodgson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
In short, if you can you should just detune the first course and only 
detune the next if the second string is likely to break.


So why making a double reentrant tuning on a tiorbino?


Diego 






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[LUTE] Re: long strings?

2011-08-29 Thread David van Ooijen

Their tiorbino (Theorbo Bass Lute small ...) has (Stephen and Sandi's)
description of the theorbood guitar (Theorbo Bass Lute medium). It
even comes with Fontanelli's music!

David - enough of this nonsense, back to work

-- 
***
David van Ooijen
davidvanooi...@gmail.com
www.davidvanooijen.nl
***



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[LUTE] Re: Tiorba

2015-06-16 Thread howard posner


 On Jun 16, 2015, at 1:54 PM, Roland Hayes rha...@legalaidbuffalo.org wrote:
 
 ..and Castaldi's illustration is phoney?

The illustration you’re thinking of is almost certainly a tiorbino.  

That said, it’s inconceivable that in nearly two centuries nobody NO historical 
players ever used single-strung archlutes.  It was as easy for them to do it as 
for us.



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[LUTE] Re: Tiorbino

2020-06-17 Thread Mathias Rösel

Dear David, dear Bruno,
thanks to both of you so much!
I agree that the Cleveland instrument, beautiful as it may be, seems more
likely to be a small arciliuto. And I'm grateful for your pointing at MH
Brussels No.1578. I shall try to get pictures and/or plans.
Mathias



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[LUTE] Re: Tiorbino

2020-06-16 Thread David Van Edwards


I have three possibles listed:

the Hieber Pfanzelt in Geneva,   490 & 760 mm, 1x1, 5x2 + 5x1

MH in Brussels No.1578, 538 & 1069mm, currently 
9x1+ 8x1 but the bridge is not original so I 
suspect it was originally a 13 course tiorbino 
with 1x1, 4x2 in lower pegbox. This is what 
Castaldi calls for. The original bridge was 10mm 
lower so the original string lengths would have 
been 548 & 1079.


Anon, Cleveland Museum of Art, No. 1918.368, 611 
& 931mm, 6x2 + 8x1 From the string lengths this 
is more likely to be a small archlute.


I agree that the Geneva instrument is the nicest and most convincing.

Best wishes,

David


At 17:21 +0200 16/6/20, =?utf-8?Q?Mathias_R=C3=B6sel?= wrote:

   Dear Hive Mind,

   Are there a surviving 17^th century tiorbinos? I poked in your
   archives, but couldn't seem to find hints.

   A tiorbino is mentioned on Steven Barber's and Sandi Harris's homepage
   as "one of the best and most convincing surviving examples of a
   tiorbino" (Hieber / Pfanzelt, Geneva, Mus©e d'art et d'histoire, Nr
   IM80).

   It says "one of the best"Äîare there other surviving tiorbinos? What are
   their string lengths? What are their dispositions (6:8, 7:7, 8:6)?
   Where are they being preserved?

   Mathias

   --


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Re: Tiorbino composers?

2004-03-26 Thread Jerzy ZAK


On Friday, Mar 26, 2004, at 08:11 Europe/Warsaw, Howard Posner wrote:
 ... in the latest Grove
 if memory serves, that Castaldi's pieces are among the few for 
 tiorbino,
 which is either a statement that that there are others, or typical 
 academic
 mealy-mouthed caution.

Besard 1617 comes to mind and his NOVA TESTUDO in ensemble pieces. But 
that print brings more frustrations then pleasure from playing -- needs 
heavy editing. Besides, the second double course would have to be in 
octave, otherwise the music does not make sense.

For Castaldi, however good it is, I'd advise some editing of the duets 
as well. Not all dissonances or clashes are so terribly cool or 
''proper to the style of lute arrangements''. For some of them there 
are polyphonic models, so one can compare and taste Castaldi's 
fluency... But still an exceptional music.

In both cases, the Besard and Castaldi, the repertoire consist mostly 
of arrangements, so if you won't find more, the solution is to follow 
the example and create your own arrangements. The instrument has a high 
tessitura and a wide scale (unlike the soprano lute, for example), 
really ample possibilities, especially in duet with the big cousin...

Jerzy

[LUTE] Re: Theorbo Nicki don't lose that number

2009-02-19 Thread howard posner

On Feb 19, 2009, at 9:39 AM, Roland Hayes wrote:

 So much for no double reentrant tuning on small theorbos. R.

 On Feb 19, 2009, at 6:12 AM, Roland Hayes wrote:

 What about the Castaldi duets? What tuning for the smaller
 instrument?

 R

 Just like the big one, an octave higher

Well, if someone wanted to be obtuse about it (not that anyone around
here would be obtuse) he could argue that the tiorbino, like the
theorbo, was strung in double re-entrant tuning because the
instrument was built to such a size that it was impossible to tune it
as an octave lute in A.  There are such large holes in that argument
that we're be none the worse for skipping it.

You're right in that the tiorbino shows that someone liked double re-
entrant tuning for musical reasons, not because of necessity or
practicality.  On the other hand, there's not much evidence that
Europe was overrun by tiorbinos.
--

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[LUTE] Re: 14 Course Powered Tiorbino

2017-03-05 Thread sterling price

My Tiorbino is 56.7 cm on courses 1-7 and I use a tuning that is one octave 
above a regular big theorbo at 415. The challenge is tuning the high b string 
third course. I just had Boston catlines figure it all out and it works great. 
I used nylgut but I don't remember what the b string is-- it might be a .42. Is 
that the thinnest nylon available?
When playing the basses it actually sounds better to let them ring on as they 
are so high of a pitch there is less need for dampening. And when playing in 
high positions on the treble strings it sounds quite amazing. I may do a video 
of De visee on the Tiorbino recorded in the back seat of my mustang for a world 
first.
Sterling 

Sent from my iPad

> On Mar 5, 2017, at 7:37 AM, Anthony Hart <anthony.hart1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>   I do not think my message got transmitted.
> 
>   I read with interest your post to the Lute discussion group.I have been
>   thinking of doing the same with my attiorbato. I have problems in
>   calculating the correct  strings. What actual tuning do you use?
> 
>   On Sun, Mar 5, 2017 at 3:17 PM Anthony Hart
>   <[1]anthony.hart1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>-- Forwarded message -
>From: Anthony Hart <[1][2]anthony.hart1...@gmail.com>
>Date: Sun, Mar 5, 2017 at 2:17 PM
>Subject: Re: [LUTE] 14 Course Powered Tiorbino
>To: sterling price <[2][3]spiffys84...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
>I read with interest your post to the Lute discussion group.I
> have been
>thinking of doing the same with my attiorbato. I have problems in
>calculating the correctstrings. What actual tuning do you
> use?
>Best wishes
>Anthony Hart
>2017-03-05 13:31 GMT+01:00 sterling price
><[3][4]spiffys84...@cs.dartmouth.edu>:
>  So, as I did 23 years ago I took my old attiorbato and tuned it
> as a
>  Tiorbino (that's an octave theorbo by the way). You have not
> lived
>  till you've heard De Vissee on a solo Tiorbino. This very
> spiffy
>  instrument can be used wherever a solo theorbo is used and it
> has
>  the added advantage of extreme portability. I've been sitting
> here
>  in the back seat of my Mustang playing theorbo music during
> work
>  breaks. A Tiorbino sounds very distinctive in the lute world.
> It
>  sounds very much like a small harp. Please do thyself a favor
> and
>  try putting Tiorbino strings on thy attiorbato.
>  ---Sterling
>  Sent from my iPad
>  To get on or off this list see list information at
>  [4][5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>--
> 
> __
>Anthony Hart   MSc, LLCM,ALCM.
>Musicologist   and   Independent   Researcher
>Highrise Court 'B', Apt 2, Tigne' Street, Sliema, SLM3174, MALTA
>Mob: +356 9944 9552.
>e-mail:   [5][6]resea...@antoninoreggio.com; web:
>[6][7]www.monsignor-reggio.com
>NEW   Publications:   EDIZIONE   ANTONINO   REGGIO
>-   [7][8]www.edizionear.com
>for information and special offer
>--
> 
> __
>Anthony Hart   MSc, LLCM,ALCM.
>Musicologist   and   Independent   Researcher
>Highrise Court 'B', Apt 2, Tigne' Street, Sliema, SLM3174, MALTA
>Mob: +356 9944 9552.
>e-mail:   [8][9]resea...@antoninoreggio.com; web:
>[9][10]www.monsignor-reggio.com
>NEW   Publications:   EDIZIONE   ANTONINO   REGGIO
>-   [10][11]www.edizionear.com
>for information and special offer
>--
> References
>1. mailto:[12]anthony.hart1...@gmail.com
>2. mailto:[13]spiffys84...@cs.dartmouth.edu
>3. mailto:[14]spiffys84...@cs.dartmouth.edu
>4. [15]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>5. mailto:[16]resea...@antoninoreggio.com
>6. [17]http://www.monsignor-reggio.com/
>7. [18]http://www.edizionear.com/
>8. mailto:[19]resea...@antoninoreggio.com
>9. [20]http://www.monsignor-reggio.com/
>   10. [21]http://www.edizionear.com/
> 
>   --
> 
>   __
>   Anthony Hart  MSc, LLCM,ALCM.
>   Musicologist  and  Independent  Researcher
>   Highrise Court 'B', Apt 2, Tigne' Street, Sliema, SLM3174, MALTA
>   Mob: +356 9944 9552.
>   e-mail:  [22]resea...@antoninoreggio.com; web:
>   [23]www.monsignor-reggio.com
>   NEW  Publication

[LUTE] Re: Tiorbino

2017-06-06 Thread Martyn Hodgson


   - Forwarded Message -
   From: Martyn Hodgson <hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   To: Anthony Hart <anthony.hart1...@gmail.com>
   Sent: Tuesday, 6 June 2017, 7:40
   Subject: Re: [LUTE] Tiorbino
   Dear Anthony,
   Extant instruments can be a minefield - what were they considered as
   originally?; have they been altered?, etc...
   A few ruminations:
   Examining early iconographic sources can sometimes be more revealing
   than extant instruments. For example, if you haven't already, have a
   look at Castaldi's 1622 book which is for 'TIORBAE' and 'TIORBINO'. The
   frontispiece shows one single strung theorbo significantly larger than
   the other (estimated stopped string length ratio 0.73 so that, for
   example, if the larger instrument had a stopped string length of  93cm,
   say, then the smaller one would be around 68cm). Both are single strung
   on the upper and lower pegboxes.
   Similarly, a fine engraved plate shows Castaldi with a relatively small
   theorbo type instrument which, I suggest, is also a tiorbino - this
   seems to be disposed 6 + 6 (all single). I estimate, from inter-ocular
   distance and forearm length, a stopped string length of around 70cm).
   This length seems far too small for a A tuned tiorba but, perhaps, a
   bit too big for a tiorbino tuned an octave higher - though I don't
   think we should get too carried away by the notion that (like viol
   chests) the octave instrument must have been exactly half the size of
   the larger. Indeed the larger instrument might have been pitched lower
   than normal for such small scale chamber duets, where projecting power
   was not a principal factor, ie an octave below the smaller - whatever
   the nominal pitch of this was.
   Again, the next plate clearly shows a smaller instrument being played:
   one, that being played by the standing man, seems close to lute size of
   the period and place (say, stopped around 63cm) but, puzzlingly, the
   larger is not very much larger and, again I'd reckon this at around
   70cm stopped length (similar to that being played by Castaldi). In
   short, it doesn't seem to represent a large continuo (A tuned) tiorba
   being played with an octave instrument - perhaps another tiorbino but
   of slightly different size?  Or maybe the engraver simply reduced the
   size to fit it on the page! Both instrument appear to be seem single
   strung throughout
   As said, all these are simply ruminations - but intriguing
   nevertheless.
   Martyn
 __

   From: Anthony Hart <anthony.hart1...@gmail.com>
   To: lute <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   Sent: Monday, 5 June 2017, 20:50
   Subject: [LUTE] Tiorbino
 A question about tiobino. The Cleveland Tiorbino on Wayne's site
   shows
 6 +8. The bases are single strung. What is the opinion of this set
   up?
 If the basses are double should they be unison or octaves?
 There was a question earlier of the thiness of the 'b' (3rd). If the
 tension is reduced then this becomes  a standard thickness. I have
 calculated on 20/25 N, this was the tension recommended by Martin
 Shepherd for Liuto  attiobato, which is the same size instrument.
 Any suggestions welcome.
 Thanks and best wishes
 Anthony Hart
 [1][1]anthony.hart1...@gmail.com
 --
 __
 Anthony Hart  MSc, LLCM,ALCM.
 Musicologist  and  Independent  Researcher
 Highrise Court 'B', Apt 2, Tigne' Street, Sliema, SLM3174, MALTA
 Mob: +356 9944 9552.
 e-mail:  [2][2]resea...@antoninoreggio.com; web:
 [3]www.monsignor-reggio.com
 NEW  Publications:  EDIZIONE  ANTONINO  REGGIO
 -  [4]www.edizionear.com
 for information and special offer
 --
   References
 1. mailto:[3]anthony.hart1...@gmail.com
 2. mailto:[4]resea...@antoninoreggio.com
 3. [5]http://www.monsignor-reggio.com/
 4. [6]http://www.edizionear.com/
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. mailto:anthony.hart1...@gmail.com
   2. mailto:resea...@antoninoreggio.com
   3. mailto:anthony.hart1...@gmail.com
   4. mailto:resea...@antoninoreggio.com
   5. http://www.monsignor-reggio.com/
   6. http://www.edizionear.com/
   7. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Tiorbino

2017-06-05 Thread Anthony Hart

   A question about tiobino. The Cleveland Tiorbino on Wayne's site shows
   6 +8. The bases are single strung. What is the opinion of this set up?
   If the basses are double should they be unison or octaves?

   There was a question earlier of the thiness of the 'b' (3rd). If the
   tension is reduced then this becomes  a standard thickness. I have
   calculated on 20/25 N, this was the tension recommended by Martin
   Shepherd for Liuto  attiobato, which is the same size instrument.

   Any suggestions welcome.

   Thanks and best wishes

   Anthony Hart

   [1]anthony.hart1...@gmail.com

   --

   __
   Anthony Hart  MSc, LLCM,ALCM.
   Musicologist  and  Independent  Researcher
   Highrise Court 'B', Apt 2, Tigne' Street, Sliema, SLM3174, MALTA
   Mob: +356 9944 9552.
   e-mail:  [2]resea...@antoninoreggio.com; web:
   [3]www.monsignor-reggio.com
   NEW  Publications:  EDIZIONE  ANTONINO  REGGIO
   -  [4]www.edizionear.com
   for information and special offer

   --

References

   1. mailto:anthony.hart1...@gmail.com
   2. mailto:resea...@antoninoreggio.com
   3. http://www.monsignor-reggio.com/
   4. http://www.edizionear.com/


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[LUTE] Re: small archlute tuning suggestions

2007-11-23 Thread Bruno Fournier

Thx for replying, 

Well I never liked that 10 course, so I said what the heck, lets try
something else with that. Unfortunately I was limited to the original
59 cm on the fingerboard without undergoing major surgery.

Yes I'm kind of tempted by the Tiorbino idea, I understand it is quite
an interesting sound but if If I go with  re-entrant in vieil ton, I
would only do the first course, I guess its worth a try.

anyone else has any thoughts?

Bruno

On Nov 23, 2007 12:43 PM, Daniel Winheld [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 At 59 cm and thinking of it as an archlute, why not plain old G
 tuning and call it a day? The reentrant tunings sound
 counterproductive or inappropriate for that size instrument. Don't
 know about the tiorbino idea. Funny thing, I too have an old 10
 course out for an archthing conversion- it will be about 63cm plus
 whatever- I plan on ordinary vielle ton + extra basses typical for a
 G archlute, but at A=415, maybe 392.  Let us know how the tiorbino
 thing works if you have the nerve to try it!  -Dan


 Hello,
 
 I have recently converted my 10 course Renaissance lute, into a small
 13 course archlute.  String length of first 6 couses ( doubled exept
 for 1st) = 59 cm while the Single basses 7 through 13 are 101 cm.  I
 am looking for suggestions on how I should tune it and string
 gauges...I plan to use as much gut as possible.
 
 Should I:
 
 a) try reentrant tuning in G ( 1st course and/or 2nd course)
 b) reentrant tuning in A
 c) or tune like a Tiorbino ( using traditional renaissance tuning with
 4th to 13th course tuned an octave up, therefore creating re-entrant
 tuning but all up one octave...)
 
 Any one played in the latter tuning?


 --




-- 
Bruno Cognyl-Fournier
Luthiste, etc
Estavel
Ensemble de musique ancienne
www.estavel.org



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[LUTE] Re: theorbo size

2008-01-31 Thread chriswilke

Nigel,

I wonder about this too based on my own
experiences with big and small theorbos.  As I stated
on a earlier post on a related subject, its probable
that Pittoni and Melli (Melli, definately, Pittoni is
a little less definative) wrote for an instrument with
an octave second course.  This meant that they had to
have an instrument with a neck short enough for a high
(AND low) E, yet long enough to tune in A.  (In this
case, Pittoni is definately in A because of the part
in mensual notation.  Melli - presumably in A, but who
knows?)  At any rate, I've found sections of a lot of
Italian solo music to be quite technically challening
even on my small theorbo (76cm) which I currently have
inauthentically tuned in A.  And then there's always
the tiorbino tuned an octave higher than the regular
theorbo...

Only Castaldi published for this, but I suppose it
could have been in wider use for solo music in Italy
than we now know.  (Is that smallish instrument he's
holding in the engraving a theorbo or tiorbino?)  This
is not definative, either, I'm afraid.  Castaldi's
pieces specifying the tiorbino are all deuts with a
full-sized theorbo.  Since the part for standard
theorbo in these duets is of equal difficulty as the
part for tiorbino, the big guy has to do all the same
acrobatics as the small fry.  This doesn't help us
much in figuring out which tiorba is the more
practical solo instrument.

Maybe if David Dolata is lurking out there, he could
help us out...

Chris 


 
--- Nigel Solomon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Just out of interest, what size chitaronne do you
 think Piccinini was 
 playing when he wrote his pieces? I used to have a
 92cm chitaronne and I 
 can tell you not many of those pieces are playable
 on a monster like 
 that. The theorbo I have now measures 85 cm and even
 then a lot of the 
 pieces are only just playable, particularly the
 slurred passages and 
 leaps from one end of the fingerboard to another.
 May be the Italians, 
 like the French, had two basic sizes of chitaronne:
 one for solo pieces 
 and one for accompanying. I don't know, I'm just
 wondering...
 
 Nigel
 
 
 
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Never miss a thing.  Make Yahoo your home page. 
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

[LUTE] Re: live lute performances recorded with a zoom h2

2008-03-18 Thread igor .

-- Forwarded message --
From: igor . [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 7:13 AM
Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: live lute performances recorded with a zoom h2
To: howard posner [EMAIL PROTECTED]


Thanks Howard,
i know Castaldi on Alpha and somehow i thought they use small Arcileuto
tuned as Tiorbino...i mean they are French

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[LUTE] wound strings in 120 CM length

2008-07-30 Thread Bruno Fournier

Can anyone give me the address of Pyramid and any other string supplier that
would have strings in lengths of 120 cm or more.  I have just finished
modifying one of my old lutes into a small theorbized lute  (tiorbino) but
not small enough to accept my standard wound strings.

thx
-- 
Bruno Cognyl-Fournier
Luthiste, etc
Estavel
Ensemble de musique ancienne
www.estavel.org

--

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[LUTE] Besard's Novus Partus

2014-05-21 Thread Thomas Walker

   Hello all--
   Do any of you have a view(s) on what instrument Besard wanted for his
   Nova Testudo?  The other lutes seem pretty clearly to be 9 or 10 course
   instruments a 4th apart.  The top lute, to me, looks like he's assuming
   reentrant tuning.  I'm tempted to think of Castaldi's tiorbino, but
   that seems less likely outside of Italy that early in the 17th c.
   Thoughts?
   Thanks kindly,
   Thomas Walker, Jr.

   --


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[LUTE] Re: Italian Theorbo: 6/8, 7/8, 8/8....

2014-08-14 Thread howard posner


On Aug 14, 2014, at 2:29 PM, R. Mattes r...@mh-freiburg.de wrote:

 Poor Castaldi - according to his own engravings he played an instrument
 that, according to modern folklore, was a typical french theorbo (rather
 small, single strung with a roundish/deep body).

Unless it’s the tiorbino.



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[LUTE] Re: Tiorbino

2020-06-19 Thread Mathias Rösel

On a side note, the names of the luthiers who built the tiorbino that is now 
kept in Geneva, are given as: Johannes Hieber and Andreas Pfanzelt (both on the 
museum's page and on Barber's / Harris's page).

The name of Hieber's colleague in Padua, though, apparently was Martin(o) 
Pfanzelt, according to two reference books (Enzyklopaedie des Geigenbaus, 1965, 
and MGG vol. 10, 1986).

I wonder if there's a label inside the instrument.—Anyone?

Mathias



> Il giorno 18 giu 2020, alle ore 11:16, Davide Rebuffa 
>  ha scritto:
> 
> Dear all,
> 
> The instrument in Cleveland could be a a very rare example of a 14-course 
> small archlute 
> (not a "liuto attiorbato" because it has single bourdons)
> or a 14-course tiorbino in G. 
> The brand of the unknown manufacturer is present on the external countercap 
> and bears the initials R. E. 
> The string lengths are 523 mm and 882 mm.
> Since the string length is a bit long for a tiorbino, the third course could 
> be tuned at the higher octave
> only if the instrument is tuned in G, not in A.
> It was converted  into a 12-course instrument (2x1; 6x2; 4x2) by Sebastian 
> Schelle in 1742. 
> Ray Nurse restored it in 1988 bringing it back to 6x2; 8x1 as we may assume 
> it was in the 17th century. The bridge was also rebuilt.
> The two extra pegs added in the 18th century were nor removed from the pegbox.
> 
> Davide
> 
>> Il giorno 18 giu 2020, alle ore 09:27, Martin Shepherd 
>>  ha scritto:
>> 
>> Hi All,
>> 
>> I don't have many details of the Cleveland instrument, but I do have the 
>> poster!  I see 14 pegs for the petit jeu (7x2) and 8 pegs for the grand jeu 
>> (4x2), making it a 12-course liuto attiorbato. I think it was Larry Brown 
>> who had some measurements, if I remember correctly the petit jeu is 61cm.
>> 
>> Martin
>> 
>> On 17/06/2020 22:37, Mathias Rösel wrote:
>>> Dear David, dear Bruno,
>>> thanks to both of you so much!
>>> I agree that the Cleveland instrument, beautiful as it may be, seems more
>>> likely to be a small arciliuto. And I'm grateful for your pointing at MH
>>> Brussels No.1578. I shall try to get pictures and/or plans.
>>> Mathias
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>> 
>> -- 
>> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
>> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
>> 
>> 
>

[LUTE] Re: Rare chance to hear Castaldi in Portland

2014-02-12 Thread David Smith

You can go to www.Musicamaestrale.org to but the tickets as well.
David

Sent from my iPhone

 On Feb 12, 2014, at 9:54 AM, John Lenti johnle...@hotmail.com wrote:
 
   Dear Lute friends,
   My esteemed colleague Hideki Yamaya and I will present a program of
   Italian lute duets, Saturday, February  16, 7:30 PM at the Community
   Music Center in Portland, OR ([1]3350 SE Francis Street, Portland,
   Oregon 97202)
   Besides the central element of the Castaldi theorbo-tiorbino duets,
   we'll also feature the Francesco/Matelart duets for unequal lutes, plus
   accompanied and unaccompanied guitar and theorbo music.
   The blurb, if you feel like sharing and helping to get the word out:
   CAPRICCI A DUE STROMENTI: 17th-Century Duets for Lutes and Theorbos
   John Lenti, lute and theorbo
   Hideki Yamaya, lute, tiorbino, and Baroque guitar
   Hideki Yamaya of Musica Maestrale will be joined by John Lenti,
   lutenist for Portland Baroque Orchestra, for an exciting program of
   Italian early baroque music for lutes and theorbos. Of particular
   interest are duets by Bellerofonte Castaldi for theorbo and tiorbino,
   or octave-pitched theorbo, an extremely rare instrument. Other
   composers represented include Alessandro Piccinini and Johann
   Hieronymus Kapsberger.
   $14 general; $12 students/seniors
   Best,
   John
 
   --
 
 References
 
   1. http:///
 
 
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[LUTE] Re: Tiorbino

2017-06-05 Thread Martin Shepherd


Hi Anthony,

The Cleveland "tiorbino" is a puzzle.  The current bridge shows 6x2 + 
8x1, but there are 14 pegs in the lower pegbox and 8 in the upper.  My 
best guess is that in its original form it was a 11c liuto attiorbato, 
7x2 and 4x2.  The string length of around 61cm for the petit jeu seems 
consonant with this proposal.  Looking at the photos it seems to me that 
the current bridge is not original.


Best wishes,

Martin

On 05/06/2017 21:47, Anthony Hart wrote:

A question about tiobino. The Cleveland Tiorbino on Wayne's site shows
6 +8. The bases are single strung. What is the opinion of this set up?
If the basses are double should they be unison or octaves?

There was a question earlier of the thiness of the 'b' (3rd). If the
tension is reduced then this becomes  a standard thickness. I have
calculated on 20/25 N, this was the tension recommended by Martin
Shepherd for Liuto  attiobato, which is the same size instrument.

Any suggestions welcome.

Thanks and best wishes

Anthony Hart

[1]anthony.hart1...@gmail.com

--

__
Anthony Hart  MSc, LLCM,ALCM.
Musicologist  and  Independent  Researcher
Highrise Court 'B', Apt 2, Tigne' Street, Sliema, SLM3174, MALTA
Mob: +356 9944 9552.
e-mail:  [2]resea...@antoninoreggio.com; web:
[3]www.monsignor-reggio.com
NEW  Publications:  EDIZIONE  ANTONINO  REGGIO
-  [4]www.edizionear.com
for information and special offer

--

References

1. mailto:anthony.hart1...@gmail.com
2. mailto:resea...@antoninoreggio.com
3. http://www.monsignor-reggio.com/
4. http://www.edizionear.com/


To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html




---
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[LUTE] Re: Tiorbino

2017-06-05 Thread Andreas Schlegel

Dear Anthony,

There's one tiorbino made by Johannes Hieber and Andreas Pfanzelt in Geneva, 
Musée d'art et d'histoire, inv. no. IM 80. 
This instrument has a new soundboard with a new bridge, but the pegs give the 
following informations:
petit jeu:
11 pegs (suggesting 1x1 + 5x2, 48.4 cm string length)
grand jeu: 
5 pegs (suggesting 5x1, 75.3 cm)

It's depicted in my first book, p. 36/37.

All the best,

Andreas

Am 05.06.2017 um 21:47 schrieb Anthony Hart <anthony.hart1...@gmail.com>:

>   A question about tiobino. The Cleveland Tiorbino on Wayne's site shows
>   6 +8. The bases are single strung. What is the opinion of this set up?
>   If the basses are double should they be unison or octaves?
> 
>   There was a question earlier of the thiness of the 'b' (3rd). If the
>   tension is reduced then this becomes  a standard thickness. I have
>   calculated on 20/25 N, this was the tension recommended by Martin
>   Shepherd for Liuto  attiobato, which is the same size instrument.
> 
>   Any suggestions welcome.
> 
>   Thanks and best wishes
> 
>   Anthony Hart
> 
>   [1]anthony.hart1...@gmail.com
> 
>   --
> 
>   __
>   Anthony Hart  MSc, LLCM,ALCM.
>   Musicologist  and  Independent  Researcher
>   Highrise Court 'B', Apt 2, Tigne' Street, Sliema, SLM3174, MALTA
>   Mob: +356 9944 9552.
>   e-mail:  [2]resea...@antoninoreggio.com; web:
>   [3]www.monsignor-reggio.com
>   NEW  Publications:  EDIZIONE  ANTONINO  REGGIO
>   -  [4]www.edizionear.com
>   for information and special offer
> 
>   --
> 
> References
> 
>   1. mailto:anthony.hart1...@gmail.com
>   2. mailto:resea...@antoninoreggio.com
>   3. http://www.monsignor-reggio.com/
>   4. http://www.edizionear.com/
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

Andreas Schlegel
Eckstr. 6
CH-5737 Menziken
+41 (0)62 771 47 07
lute.cor...@sunrise.ch


--

[LUTE] Tiorbino

2020-06-18 Thread Davide Rebuffa




> Il giorno 18 giu 2020, alle ore 11:16, Davide Rebuffa 
>  ha scritto:
> 
> Dear all,
> 
> The instrument in Cleveland could be a a very rare example of a 14-course 
> small archlute 
> (not a "liuto attiorbato" because it has single bourdons)
> or a 14-course tiorbino in G. 
> The brand of the unknown manufacturer is present on the external countercap 
> and bears the initials R. E. 
> The string lengths are 523 mm and 882 mm.
> Since the string length is a bit long for a tiorbino, the third course could 
> be tuned at the higher octave
> only if the instrument is tuned in G, not in A.
> It was converted  into a 12-course instrument (2x1; 6x2; 4x2) by Sebastian 
> Schelle in 1742. 
> Ray Nurse restored it in 1988 bringing it back to 6x2; 8x1 as we may assume 
> it was in the 17th century. The bridge was also rebuilt.
> The two extra pegs added in the 18th century were nor removed from the pegbox.
> 
> Davide
> 
>> Il giorno 18 giu 2020, alle ore 09:27, Martin Shepherd 
>>  ha scritto:
>> 
>> Hi All,
>> 
>> I don't have many details of the Cleveland instrument, but I do have the 
>> poster!  I see 14 pegs for the petit jeu (7x2) and 8 pegs for the grand jeu 
>> (4x2), making it a 12-course liuto attiorbato. I think it was Larry Brown 
>> who had some measurements, if I remember correctly the petit jeu is 61cm.
>> 
>> Martin
>> 
>> On 17/06/2020 22:37, Mathias Rösel wrote:
>>> Dear David, dear Bruno,
>>> thanks to both of you so much!
>>> I agree that the Cleveland instrument, beautiful as it may be, seems more
>>> likely to be a small arciliuto. And I'm grateful for your pointing at MH
>>> Brussels No.1578. I shall try to get pictures and/or plans.
>>> Mathias
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>> 
>> -- 
>> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
>> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
>> 
>> 
>

[LUTE] Re: Tiorbino

2020-06-18 Thread Martin Shepherd


Many thanks for the clarification, Davide!

M

On 18/06/2020 11:16, Davide Rebuffa wrote:

  Dear all,

The instrument in Cleveland could be a a very rare example of a 14-course small 
archlute
(not a "liuto attiorbato" because it has single bourdons)
  or a 14-course tiorbino in G.
  The brand of the unknown manufacturer is present on the external countercap 
and bears the initials R. E.
The string lengths are 523 mm and 882 mm.
Since the string length is a bit long for a tiorbino, the third course could be 
tuned at the higher octave
  only if the instrument is tuned in G, not in A.
It was converted  into a 12-course instrument (2x1; 6x2; 4x2) by Sebastian 
Schelle in 1742.
Ray Nurse restored it in 1988 bringing it back to 6x2; 8x1 as we may assume it 
was in the 17th century. The bridge was also rebuilt.
The two extra pegs added in the 18th century were nor removed from the pegbox.

Davide


Il giorno 18 giu 2020, alle ore 09:27, Martin Shepherd  
ha scritto:

Hi All,

I don't have many details of the Cleveland instrument, but I do have the 
poster!  I see 14 pegs for the petit jeu (7x2) and 8 pegs for the grand jeu 
(4x2), making it a 12-course liuto attiorbato. I think it was Larry Brown who 
had some measurements, if I remember correctly the petit jeu is 61cm.

Martin

On 17/06/2020 22:37, Mathias Rösel wrote:

Dear David, dear Bruno,
thanks to both of you so much!
I agree that the Cleveland instrument, beautiful as it may be, seems more
likely to be a small arciliuto. And I'm grateful for your pointing at MH
Brussels No.1578. I shall try to get pictures and/or plans.
Mathias



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[LUTE] Re: Tiorbino

2020-06-19 Thread Mathias Rösel

Thank you, David!

Funny enough. According to three reference works (MGG, Encyclopedia of
Violin Makers, Dictionnaire unversel des luthiers), Hieber's colleague in
Rome, Venice and Padua was Martino Pfanzelt.

And according to the same reference books, there was no luthier Andreas
Pfanzelt in the 16th and 17th centuries.

Waiting with anticipation for the Geneva museum to give information.

Mathias



-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
[mailto:lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu] Im Auftrag von David Van
Edwards
Gesendet: Freitag, 19. Juni 2020 14:08
An: Mathias Rösel
Cc: 'Lutelist'; 'Wolfgang u. Lenser-Emmerich Anita Emmerich'; 'Wolfgang u.
Lenser-Emmerich Anita Emmerich'
Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Tiorbino

According to the LSA  database:

labelled: Johannes Hieber und Andreas Pfanzelt //.
Repair label: Louvet/ m (ai) tre luthier de paris 
à avignon/ mai 1778 pur Mr. Carpentraz//

David



At 13:27 +0200 19/6/20, Mathias Rösel wrote:
>On a side note, the names of the luthiers who 
>built the tiorbino that is now kept in Geneva, 
>are given as: Johannes Hieber and Andreas 
>Pfanzelt (both on the museum's page and on 
>Barber's / Harris's page).
>
>The name of Hieber's colleague in Padua, though, 
>apparently was Martin(o) Pfanzelt, according to 
>two reference books (Enzyklopaedie des 
>Geigenbaus, 1965, and MGG vol. 10, 1986).
>
>I wonder if there's a label inside the instrument.-Anyone?
>
>Mathias
>
>
>
>>  Il giorno 18 giu 2020, alle ore 11:16, Davide 
>>Rebuffa  ha 
>>scritto:
>>
>>  Dear all,
>>
>>  The instrument in Cleveland could be a a very 
>>rare example of a 14-course small archlute
>>  (not a "liuto attiorbato" because it has single bourdons)
>>  or a 14-course tiorbino in G.
>>  The brand of the unknown manufacturer is 
>>present on the external countercap and bears 
>>the initials R. E.
>>  The string lengths are 523 mm and 882 mm.
>>  Since the string length is a bit long for a 
>>tiorbino, the third course could be tuned at 
>>the higher octave
>>  only if the instrument is tuned in G, not in A.
>>  It was converted  into a 12-course instrument 
>>(2x1; 6x2; 4x2) by Sebastian Schelle in 1742.
>>  Ray Nurse restored it in 1988 bringing it back 
>>to 6x2; 8x1 as we may assume it was in the 17th 
>>century. The bridge was also rebuilt.
>>  The two extra pegs added in the 18th century 
>>were nor removed from the pegbox.
>>
>>  Davide
>>
>>>  Il giorno 18 giu 2020, alle ore 09:27, Martin 
>>>Shepherd  ha scritto:
>>>
>>>  Hi All,
>>>
>>>  I don't have many details of the Cleveland 
>>>instrument, but I do have the poster!  I see 
>>>14 pegs for the petit jeu (7x2) and 8 pegs for 
>>>the grand jeu (4x2), making it a 12-course 
>>>liuto attiorbato. I think it was Larry Brown 
>>>who had some measurements, if I remember 
>>>correctly the petit jeu is 61cm.
>>>
>>>  Martin
>>>
>>>  On 17/06/2020 22:37, Mathias Rösel wrote:
>>>>  Dear David, dear Bruno,
>>>>  thanks to both of you so much!
>>>>  I agree that the Cleveland instrument, beautiful as it may be, seems
more
>>>>  likely to be a small arciliuto. And I'm grateful for your pointing at
MH
>>>>  Brussels No.1578. I shall try to get pictures and/or plans.
>>>>  Mathias
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  To get on or off this list see list information at
>>>>  http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>>>
>>>  --
>>>  This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
>>>  https://www.avast.com/antivirus
>>>
>>>
>>


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[LUTE] Re: 14 Course Powered Tiorbino

2017-03-05 Thread Anthony Hart

   I do not think my message got transmitted.

   I read with interest your post to the Lute discussion group.I have been
   thinking of doing the same with my attiorbato. I have problems in
   calculating the correct  strings. What actual tuning do you use?

   On Sun, Mar 5, 2017 at 3:17 PM Anthony Hart
   <[1]anthony.hart1...@gmail.com> wrote:

-- Forwarded message -
From: Anthony Hart <[1][2]anthony.hart1...@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, Mar 5, 2017 at 2:17 PM
Subject: Re: [LUTE] 14 Course Powered Tiorbino
To: sterling price <[2][3]spiffys84...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
I read with interest your post to the Lute discussion group.I
 have been
thinking of doing the same with my attiorbato. I have problems in
calculating the correctstrings. What actual tuning do you
 use?
Best wishes
Anthony Hart
2017-03-05 13:31 GMT+01:00 sterling price
<[3][4]spiffys84...@cs.dartmouth.edu>:
  So, as I did 23 years ago I took my old attiorbato and tuned it
 as a
  Tiorbino (that's an octave theorbo by the way). You have not
 lived
  till you've heard De Vissee on a solo Tiorbino. This very
 spiffy
  instrument can be used wherever a solo theorbo is used and it
 has
  the added advantage of extreme portability. I've been sitting
 here
  in the back seat of my Mustang playing theorbo music during
 work
  breaks. A Tiorbino sounds very distinctive in the lute world.
 It
  sounds very much like a small harp. Please do thyself a favor
 and
  try putting Tiorbino strings on thy attiorbato.
  ---Sterling
  Sent from my iPad
  To get on or off this list see list information at
  [4][5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
--

 __
Anthony Hart   MSc, LLCM,ALCM.
Musicologist   and   Independent   Researcher
Highrise Court 'B', Apt 2, Tigne' Street, Sliema, SLM3174, MALTA
Mob: +356 9944 9552.
e-mail:   [5][6]resea...@antoninoreggio.com; web:
[6][7]www.monsignor-reggio.com
NEW   Publications:   EDIZIONE   ANTONINO   REGGIO
-   [7][8]www.edizionear.com
for information and special offer
--

 __
Anthony Hart   MSc, LLCM,ALCM.
Musicologist   and   Independent   Researcher
Highrise Court 'B', Apt 2, Tigne' Street, Sliema, SLM3174, MALTA
Mob: +356 9944 9552.
e-mail:   [8][9]resea...@antoninoreggio.com; web:
[9][10]www.monsignor-reggio.com
NEW   Publications:   EDIZIONE   ANTONINO   REGGIO
-   [10][11]www.edizionear.com
for information and special offer
--
 References
1. mailto:[12]anthony.hart1...@gmail.com
2. mailto:[13]spiffys84...@cs.dartmouth.edu
3. mailto:[14]spiffys84...@cs.dartmouth.edu
4. [15]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
5. mailto:[16]resea...@antoninoreggio.com
6. [17]http://www.monsignor-reggio.com/
7. [18]http://www.edizionear.com/
8. mailto:[19]resea...@antoninoreggio.com
9. [20]http://www.monsignor-reggio.com/
   10. [21]http://www.edizionear.com/

   --

   __
   Anthony Hart  MSc, LLCM,ALCM.
   Musicologist  and  Independent  Researcher
   Highrise Court 'B', Apt 2, Tigne' Street, Sliema, SLM3174, MALTA
   Mob: +356 9944 9552.
   e-mail:  [22]resea...@antoninoreggio.com; web:
   [23]www.monsignor-reggio.com
   NEW  Publications:  EDIZIONE  ANTONINO  REGGIO
   -  [24]www.edizionear.com
   for information and special offer

   --

References

   1. mailto:anthony.hart1...@gmail.com
   2. mailto:anthony.hart1...@gmail.com
   3. mailto:spiffys84...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   4. mailto:spiffys84...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   6. mailto:resea...@antoninoreggio.com
   7. http://www.monsignor-reggio.com/
   8. http://www.edizionear.com/
   9. mailto:resea...@antoninoreggio.com
  10. http://www.monsignor-reggio.com/
  11. http://www.edizionear.com/
  12. mailto:anthony.hart1...@gmail.com
  13. mailto:spiffys84...@cs.dartmouth.edu
  14. mailto:spiffys84...@cs.dartmouth.edu
  15. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
  16. mailto:resea...@antoninoreggio.com
  17. http://www.monsignor-reggio.com/
  18. http://www.edizionear.com/
  19. mailto:resea...@antoninoreggio.com
  20. http://www.monsignor-reggio.com/
  21. http://www.edizionear.com/
  22. mailto:resea...@antoninoreggio.com
  23. http://www.monsignor-reggio.com/
  24. http://www.edizionear.com/

[LUTE] Re: Tiorbino

2017-06-05 Thread Bruno Cognyl-Fournier

   just for your information, I have a Tiorbino made by Colin Everett in
   Ottawa.. I tune it at standard Renaissance pitch (like a regular lute)
   my 7th through 13th course ( I don,t have 14 courses on this
   instrument, although Colin also made 14 courses) are singles and I have
   recently and successfully used Mimmo Peruffo's loaded Nylgut from 5th
   course down.. ( 5th and 6th in octaves)
   cheers
   Bruno Cognyl-Fournier
   (Montreal, Quebec)

   2017-06-05 15:47 GMT-04:00 Anthony Hart
   <[1]anthony.hart1...@gmail.com>:

A question about tiobino. The Cleveland Tiorbino on Wayne's site
 shows
6 +8. The bases are single strung. What is the opinion of this
 set up?
If the basses are double should they be unison or octaves?
There was a question earlier of the thiness of the 'b' (3rd). If
 the
tension is reduced then this becomes   a standard thickness. I
 have
calculated on 20/25 N, this was the tension recommended by Martin
Shepherd for Liuto   attiobato, which is the same size
 instrument.
Any suggestions welcome.
Thanks and best wishes
Anthony Hart
[1][2]anthony.hart1...@gmail.com
--

 __
Anthony Hart   MSc, LLCM,ALCM.
Musicologist   and   Independent   Researcher
Highrise Court 'B', Apt 2, Tigne' Street, Sliema, SLM3174, MALTA
Mob: [3]+356 9944 9552.
e-mail:   [2][4]resea...@antoninoreggio.com; web:
[3][5]www.monsignor-reggio.com
NEW   Publications:   EDIZIONE   ANTONINO   REGGIO
-   [4][6]www.edizionear.com
for information and special offer
--
 References
1. mailto:[7]anthony.hart1...@gmail.com
2. mailto:[8]resea...@antoninoreggio.com
3. [9]http://www.monsignor-reggio.com/
4. [10]http://www.edizionear.com/
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 [11]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. mailto:anthony.hart1...@gmail.com
   2. mailto:anthony.hart1...@gmail.com
   3. tel:+356 9944 9552
   4. mailto:resea...@antoninoreggio.com
   5. http://www.monsignor-reggio.com/
   6. http://www.edizionear.com/
   7. mailto:anthony.hart1...@gmail.com
   8. mailto:resea...@antoninoreggio.com
   9. http://www.monsignor-reggio.com/
  10. http://www.edizionear.com/
  11. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Tiorbino

2020-06-18 Thread i...@lutecorner.ch

   Dear all,

   I just asked Cleveland for some more informations. I will share them
   here.

   Andreas

   Am 18.06.2020 um 11:46 schrieb Davide Rebuffa
   <[1]davide.rebu...@fastwebnet.it>:

 Il giorno 18 giu 2020, alle ore 11:16, Davide Rebuffa
 <[2]davide.rebu...@fastwebnet.it> ha scritto:
 Dear all,
 The instrument in Cleveland could be a a very rare example of a
 14-course small archlute
 (not a "liuto attiorbato" because it has single bourdons)
 or a 14-course tiorbino in G.
 The brand of the unknown manufacturer is present on the external
 countercap and bears the initials R. E.
 The string lengths are 523 mm and 882 mm.
 Since the string length is a bit long for a tiorbino, the third
 course could be tuned at the higher octave
 only if the instrument is tuned in G, not in A.
 It was converted  into a 12-course instrument (2x1; 6x2; 4x2) by
 Sebastian Schelle in 1742.
 Ray Nurse restored it in 1988 bringing it back to 6x2; 8x1 as we may
 assume it was in the 17th century. The bridge was also rebuilt.
 The two extra pegs added in the 18th century were nor removed from
 the pegbox.
 Davide

 Il giorno 18 giu 2020, alle ore 09:27, Martin Shepherd
 <[3]mar...@luteshop.co.uk> ha scritto:
 Hi All,
 I don't have many details of the Cleveland instrument, but I do have
 the poster!  I see 14 pegs for the petit jeu (7x2) and 8 pegs for
 the grand jeu (4x2), making it a 12-course liuto attiorbato. I think
 it was Larry Brown who had some measurements, if I remember
 correctly the petit jeu is 61cm.
 Martin
 On 17/06/2020 22:37, Mathias RÃ¶sel wrote:

 Dear David, dear Bruno,
 thanks to both of you so much!
 I agree that the Cleveland instrument, beautiful as it may be, seems
 more
 likely to be a small arciliuto. And I'm grateful for your pointing
 at MH
 Brussels No.1578. I shall try to get pictures and/or plans.
 Mathias
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

 --
 This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
 [5]https://www.avast.com/antivirus

   Andreas Schlegel
   Eckstr. 6
   CH-5737 Menziken
   +41 (0)78 646 87 63
   [6]i...@lutecorner.ch
   www.accordsnouveaux.ch

   --

References

   1. mailto:davide.rebu...@fastwebnet.it
   2. mailto:davide.rebu...@fastwebnet.it
   3. mailto:mar...@luteshop.co.uk
   4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   5. https://www.avast.com/antivirus
   6. mailto:i...@lutecorner.ch

[LUTE] Re: Tiorbino

2020-06-18 Thread Bruno Cognyl-Fournier

   This is the version Colin Everett, now deceased Canadian luther, made.
   He made   several of these, 13 and 14 courses. Mine is 57/92   and
   tuned as an archlute in G. It us very easy to play and allows me to
   play everything from early Italian to Zamboni and all the English and
   french renaissance and transition repertoireI love it.
   Bruno

   Le jeu. 18 juin 2020 5 h 52 a.m., Davide Rebuffa
   <[1]davide.rebu...@fastwebnet.it> a ÃÂ©crit  :

 > Il giorno 18 giu 2020, alle ore 11:16, Davide Rebuffa
 <[2]davide.rebu...@fastwebnet.it> ha scritto:
 >
 > Dear all,
 >
 > The instrument in Cleveland could be a a very rare example of a
 14-course small archlute
 > (not a "liuto attiorbato" because it has single bourdons)
 > or a 14-course tiorbino in G.
 > The brand of the unknown manufacturer is present on the external
 countercap and bears the initials R. E.
 > The string lengths are 523 mm and 882 mm.
     > Since the string length is a bit long for a tiorbino, the third
 course could be tuned at the higher octave
 > only if the instrument is tuned in G, not in A.
 > It was converted   into a 12-course instrument (2x1; 6x2; 4x2) by
 Sebastian Schelle in 1742.
 > Ray Nurse restored it in 1988 bringing it back to 6x2; 8x1 as we
 may assume it was in the 17th century. The bridge was also rebuilt.
 > The two extra pegs added in the 18th century were nor removed from
 the pegbox.
 >
 > Davide
 >
 >> Il giorno 18 giu 2020, alle ore 09:27, Martin Shepherd
 <[3]mar...@luteshop.co.uk> ha scritto:
 >>
 >> Hi All,
 >>
 >> I don't have many details of the Cleveland instrument, but I do
 have the poster!   I see 14 pegs for the petit jeu (7x2) and 8 pegs
 for the grand jeu (4x2), making it a 12-course liuto attiorbato. I
 think it was Larry Brown who had some measurements, if I remember
 correctly the petit jeu is 61cm.
 >>
 >> Martin
 >>
 >> On 17/06/2020 22:37, Mathias RÃÂ¶sel wrote:
 >>> Dear David, dear Bruno,
 >>> thanks to both of you so much!
 >>> I agree that the Cleveland instrument, beautiful as it may be,
 seems more
 >>> likely to be a small arciliuto. And I'm grateful for your
 pointing at MH
 >>> Brussels No.1578. I shall try to get pictures and/or plans.
 >>> Mathias
 >>>
 >>>
 >>>
 >>> To get on or off this list see list information at
 >>> [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 >>
 >> --
 >> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus
 software.
 >> [5]https://www.avast.com/antivirus
 >>
 >>
 >

   --

References

   1. mailto:davide.rebu...@fastwebnet.it
   2. mailto:davide.rebu...@fastwebnet.it
   3. mailto:mar...@luteshop.co.uk
   4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   5. https://www.avast.com/antivirus

[LUTE] Re: [spam] Lutes in Eastern Europe

2008-07-01 Thread Roman Turovsky

Fascinating, as you say, Roman.  Does anyone know what these fellows would 
have been playing?

No one knows. The culture was entirely oral until late 1500's.

And the torban players at the head of long lines of horesemen; any 
comments?

That is 19th century misrepresentation.
And it looks like a tiorbino to me.
RT
ps
I reorganized the picures, as they strayed out of category, and improved the 
navigation between the 5 pages.



http://torban.org/mamai/index.html and the succeeding pages.

RT







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[LUTE] Re: wound strings in 120 CM length

2008-07-30 Thread Charles Browne

if you look on The Lute Society site there is a page on stringing that has
the URLs of the usual string makers.
http://www.lutesoc.co.uk/lutestringing.htm

-Original Message-
From: Bruno Fournier [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 30 July 2008 16:23
To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [LUTE] wound strings in 120 CM length

Can anyone give me the address of Pyramid and any other string supplier that
would have strings in lengths of 120 cm or more.  I have just finished
modifying one of my old lutes into a small theorbized lute  (tiorbino) but
not small enough to accept my standard wound strings.

thx
--
Bruno Cognyl-Fournier
Luthiste, etc
Estavel
Ensemble de musique ancienne
www.estavel.org

--

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[LUTE] Re: long strings?

2011-08-29 Thread Garry Warber

Not to be argumentative, but...  :-)  I spent over 25 years building and 
playing classic guitars, and this theorobed guitar is a member of the lute 
family, beyond doubt...  But, call it as you will, and no doubt Stephen and 
Sandi are correct looking from their background.  This stuff greatly depends 
upon which expert is looking at it...  :-)

Garry

-Original Message- 
From: David van Ooijen

Sent: Monday, August 29, 2011 5:21 AM
To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [LUTE] Re: long strings?

Their tiorbino (Theorbo Bass Lute small ...) has (Stephen and Sandi's)
description of the theorbood guitar (Theorbo Bass Lute medium). It
even comes with Fontanelli's music!

David - enough of this nonsense, back to work

--
***
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davidvanooi...@gmail.com
www.davidvanooijen.nl
***



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[LUTE] Re: Besard's Novus Partus

2014-05-21 Thread Martin Shepherd

I think Besard explains the Nova Testudo in his preface - can someone 
help with the text?  As I remember it is top two courses down an octave, 
like the theorbo.


M
On 21/05/2014 18:10, Thomas Walker wrote:

Hello all--
Do any of you have a view(s) on what instrument Besard wanted for his
Nova Testudo?  The other lutes seem pretty clearly to be 9 or 10 course
instruments a 4th apart.  The top lute, to me, looks like he's assuming
reentrant tuning.  I'm tempted to think of Castaldi's tiorbino, but
that seems less likely outside of Italy that early in the 17th c.
Thoughts?
Thanks kindly,
Thomas Walker, Jr.

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[LUTE] Re: 14 Course Powered Tiorbino

2017-03-06 Thread Bruno Cognyl-Fournier

   I've alway been tempted to try to tune as tiorbino, never tried it, I
   have the perfect small archlute for it.. 60-92 but I've always tuned it
   in renaissance tuning, had wound strings on 5th trhough 13th, but now
   using loaded nylgut.   I have two such instruments, maybe I should try
   on the other one.. although I was planning on tuning the other one as a
   theorbe de piÃÂ¨ces in D..
   Bruno

   2017-03-05 10:54 GMT-05:00 sterling price
   <[1]spiffys84...@cs.dartmouth.edu>:

     My Tiorbino is 56.7 cm on courses 1-7 and I use a tuning that is one
 octave above a regular big theorbo at 415. The challenge is tuning
 the high b string third course. I just had Boston catlines figure it
 all out and it works great. I used nylgut but I don't remember what
 the b string is-- it might be a .42. Is that the thinnest nylon
 available?
 When playing the basses it actually sounds better to let them ring
 on as they are so high of a pitch there is less need for dampening.
 And when playing in high positions on the treble strings it sounds
 quite amazing. I may do a video of De visee on the Tiorbino recorded
 in the back seat of my mustang for a world first.
 Sterling
 Sent from my iPad
 > On Mar 5, 2017, at 7:37 AM, Anthony Hart
 <[2]anthony.hart1...@gmail.com> wrote:
 >
 >I do not think my message got transmitted.
 >
 >I read with interest your post to the Lute discussion group.I
 have been
 >thinking of doing the same with my attiorbato. I have problems
 in
 >calculating the correct   strings. What actual tuning do you
 use?
 >
 >On Sun, Mar 5, 2017 at 3:17 PM Anthony Hart
 ><[1][3]anthony.hart1...@gmail.com> wrote:
 >
 > -- Forwarded message -
 > From: Anthony Hart <[1][2][4]anthony.hart1...@gmail.com>
 > Date: Sun, Mar 5, 2017 at 2:17 PM
 > Subject: Re: [LUTE] 14 Course Powered Tiorbino
 > To: sterling price <[2][3][5]spiffys84121@cs.
 dartmouth.edu>
 > I read with interest your post to the Lute discussion
 group.I
 >  have been
 > thinking of doing the same with my attiorbato. I have
 problems in
 > calculating the correct strings. What actual tuning do
 you
 >  use?
 > Best wishes
 > Anthony Hart
 > 2017-03-05 13:31 GMT+01:00 sterling price
 > <[3][4][6]spiffys84...@cs.dartmouth.edu>:
 >   So, as I did 23 years ago I took my old attiorbato and
 tuned it
 >  as a
 >   Tiorbino (that's an octave theorbo by the way). You have
 not
 >  lived
 >   till you've heard De Vissee on a solo Tiorbino. This
 very
 >  spiffy
 >   instrument can be used wherever a solo theorbo is used
 and it
 >  has
 >   the added advantage of extreme portability. I've been
 sitting
 >  here
 >   in the back seat of my Mustang playing theorbo music
 during
 >  work
 >   breaks. A Tiorbino sounds very distinctive in the lute
 world.
     >  It
 >   sounds very much like a small harp. Please do thyself a
 favor
 >  and
 >   try putting Tiorbino strings on thy attiorbato.
 >   ---Sterling
 >   Sent from my iPad
 >   To get on or off this list see list information at
 >   [4][5][7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.
 edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 > --
 >
 >  
 __
 > Anthony HartMSc, LLCM,ALCM.
 > MusicologistandIndependentResearcher
 > Highrise Court 'B', Apt 2, Tigne' Street, Sliema, SLM3174,
 MALTA
 > Mob: [8]+356 9944 9552.
 > e-mail:[5][6][9]resea...@antoninoreggio.com; web:
 > [6][7][10]www.monsignor-reggio.com
 > NEWPublications:EDIZIONEANTONINOREGGIO
 > -[7][8][11]www.edizionear.com
 > for information and special offer
 > --
 >
 >  
 __
 > Anthony HartMSc, LLCM,ALCM.
 > MusicologistandIndependentResearcher
 > Highrise Court 'B', Apt 2, Tigne' Street, Sliema, SLM3174,
 MALTA
 > Mob: [12]+356 9944 9552.
 > e-mail:[8][9][13]resea...@antoninoreggio.com; web:
 > [9][10][14]www.monsignor-reggio.com
 &

[LUTE] Re: Tiorbino

2020-06-19 Thread David Van Edwards


According to the LSA  database:

labelled: Johannes Hieber und Andreas Pfanzelt //.
Repair label: Louvet/ m (ai) tre luthier de paris 
à avignon/ mai 1778 pur Mr. Carpentraz//


David



At 13:27 +0200 19/6/20, Mathias Rösel wrote:
On a side note, the names of the luthiers who 
built the tiorbino that is now kept in Geneva, 
are given as: Johannes Hieber and Andreas 
Pfanzelt (both on the museum's page and on 
Barber's / Harris's page).


The name of Hieber's colleague in Padua, though, 
apparently was Martin(o) Pfanzelt, according to 
two reference books (Enzyklopaedie des 
Geigenbaus, 1965, and MGG vol. 10, 1986).


I wonder if there's a label inside the instrument.-Anyone?

Mathias



 Il giorno 18 giu 2020, alle ore 11:16, Davide 
Rebuffa  ha 
scritto:


 Dear all,

 The instrument in Cleveland could be a a very 
rare example of a 14-course small archlute

 (not a "liuto attiorbato" because it has single bourdons)
 or a 14-course tiorbino in G.
 The brand of the unknown manufacturer is 
present on the external countercap and bears 
the initials R. E.

 The string lengths are 523 mm and 882 mm.
 Since the string length is a bit long for a 
tiorbino, the third course could be tuned at 
the higher octave

 only if the instrument is tuned in G, not in A.
 It was converted  into a 12-course instrument 
(2x1; 6x2; 4x2) by Sebastian Schelle in 1742.
 Ray Nurse restored it in 1988 bringing it back 
to 6x2; 8x1 as we may assume it was in the 17th 
century. The bridge was also rebuilt.
 The two extra pegs added in the 18th century 
were nor removed from the pegbox.


 Davide

 Il giorno 18 giu 2020, alle ore 09:27, Martin 
Shepherd  ha scritto:


 Hi All,

 I don't have many details of the Cleveland 
instrument, but I do have the poster!  I see 
14 pegs for the petit jeu (7x2) and 8 pegs for 
the grand jeu (4x2), making it a 12-course 
liuto attiorbato. I think it was Larry Brown 
who had some measurements, if I remember 
correctly the petit jeu is 61cm.


 Martin

 On 17/06/2020 22:37, Mathias Rösel wrote:

 Dear David, dear Bruno,
 thanks to both of you so much!
 I agree that the Cleveland instrument, beautiful as it may be, seems more
 likely to be a small arciliuto. And I'm grateful for your pointing at MH
 Brussels No.1578. I shall try to get pictures and/or plans.
 Mathias



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[LUTE] Re: 14 Course Powered Tiorbino

2017-03-05 Thread Anthony Hart

   Thanks, Sterling and Ralf.

   My instrument is 58cm. I have calculated, using the Niskanen
   calculator, at 415 the b string is 0.36, corresponding to a nylgut
   36NNG.

   I will try this combination and see what I can achieve.

   Thanks for your help

   Anthony
   On Sun, Mar 5, 2017 at 4:54 PM sterling price
   <[1]spiffys84...@yahoo.com> wrote:

     My Tiorbino is 56.7 cm on courses 1-7 and I use a tuning that is one
 octave above a regular big theorbo at 415. The challenge is tuning
 the high b string third course. I just had Boston catlines figure it
 all out and it works great. I used nylgut but I don't remember what
 the b string is-- it might be a .42. Is that the thinnest nylon
 available?
 When playing the basses it actually sounds better to let them ring
 on as they are so high of a pitch there is less need for dampening.
 And when playing in high positions on the treble strings it sounds
 quite amazing. I may do a video of De visee on the Tiorbino recorded
 in the back seat of my mustang for a world first.
 Sterling
 Sent from my iPad
 > On Mar 5, 2017, at 7:37 AM, Anthony Hart
 <[2]anthony.hart1...@gmail.com> wrote:
 >
 >I do not think my message got transmitted.
 >
 >I read with interest your post to the Lute discussion group.I
 have been
 >thinking of doing the same with my attiorbato. I have problems
 in
 >calculating the correct   strings. What actual tuning do you
 use?
 >
 >On Sun, Mar 5, 2017 at 3:17 PM Anthony Hart
 ><[1][3]anthony.hart1...@gmail.com> wrote:
 >
 > -- Forwarded message -
 > From: Anthony Hart <[1][2][4]anthony.hart1...@gmail.com>
 > Date: Sun, Mar 5, 2017 at 2:17 PM
 > Subject: Re: [LUTE] 14 Course Powered Tiorbino
 > To: sterling price
 <[2][3][5]spiffys84...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
 > I read with interest your post to the Lute discussion
 group.I
 >  have been
 > thinking of doing the same with my attiorbato. I have
 problems in
 > calculating the correct strings. What actual tuning do
 you
 >  use?
 > Best wishes
 > Anthony Hart
 > 2017-03-05 13:31 GMT+01:00 sterling price
 > <[3][4][6]spiffys84...@cs.dartmouth.edu>:
 >   So, as I did 23 years ago I took my old attiorbato and
 tuned it
 >  as a
 >   Tiorbino (that's an octave theorbo by the way). You have
 not
 >  lived
 >   till you've heard De Vissee on a solo Tiorbino. This
 very
 >  spiffy
 >   instrument can be used wherever a solo theorbo is used
 and it
 >  has
 >   the added advantage of extreme portability. I've been
 sitting
 >  here
 >   in the back seat of my Mustang playing theorbo music
 during
 >  work
 >   breaks. A Tiorbino sounds very distinctive in the lute
 world.
     >  It
 >   sounds very much like a small harp. Please do thyself a
 favor
 >  and
 >   try putting Tiorbino strings on thy attiorbato.
 >   ---Sterling
 >   Sent from my iPad
 >   To get on or off this list see list information at
 >
 [4][5][7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 > --
 >
 >
 __
 > Anthony HartMSc, LLCM,ALCM.
 > MusicologistandIndependentResearcher
 > Highrise Court 'B', Apt 2, Tigne' Street, Sliema, SLM3174,
 MALTA
 > Mob: +356 9944 9552.
 > e-mail:[5][6][8]resea...@antoninoreggio.com; web:
 > [6][7][9]www.monsignor-reggio.com
 > NEWPublications:EDIZIONEANTONINOREGGIO
 > -[7][8][10]www.edizionear.com
 > for information and special offer
 > --
 >
 >
 __
 > Anthony HartMSc, LLCM,ALCM.
 > MusicologistandIndependentResearcher
 > Highrise Court 'B', Apt 2, Tigne' Street, Sliema, SLM3174,
 MALTA
 > Mob: +356 9944 9552.
 > e-mail:[8][9][11]resea...@antoninoreggio.com; web:
 > [9][10][12]www.monsignor-reggio.com
 > NEWPublications:EDIZIONEANTONINOREGGIO
 > -[10][11][13]www.edizionear.com
 > for information and special off

[LUTE] small archlute tuning suggestions

2007-11-23 Thread Bruno Fournier

Hello,

I have recently converted my 10 course Renaissance lute, into a small
13 course archlute.  String length of first 6 couses ( doubled exept
for 1st) = 59 cm while the Single basses 7 through 13 are 101 cm.  I
am looking for suggestions on how I should tune it and string
gauges...I plan to use as much gut as possible.

Should I:

a) try reentrant tuning in G ( 1st course and/or 2nd course)
b) reentrant tuning in A
c) or tune like a Tiorbino ( using traditional renaissance tuning with
4th to 13th course tuned an octave up, therefore creating re-entrant
tuning but all up one octave...)

Any one played in the latter tuning?

thx

-- 
Bruno Cognyl-Fournier
Luthiste, etc
Estavel
Ensemble de musique ancienne
www.estavel.org



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[LUTE] Re: long strings?

2011-08-29 Thread David van Ooijen

The point is, it has only five courses on the fingerboard. Playing any
kind of lute or theorbo music on it would mean redrilling the bridge
to accomodate six, hazardous enough on a 'decent' instrument, but I'm
not sure this one will be up to it.

David

On 29 August 2011 15:17, Garry Warber garrywar...@hughes.net wrote:
 Not to be argumentative, but...  :-)  I spent over 25 years building and
 playing classic guitars, and this theorobed guitar is a member of the lute
 family, beyond doubt...  But, call it as you will, and no doubt Stephen and
 Sandi are correct looking from their background.  This stuff greatly depends
 upon which expert is looking at it...  :-)
 Garry

 -Original Message- From: David van Ooijen
 Sent: Monday, August 29, 2011 5:21 AM
 To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Subject: [LUTE] Re: long strings?

 Their tiorbino (Theorbo Bass Lute small ...) has (Stephen and Sandi's)
 description of the theorbood guitar (Theorbo Bass Lute medium). It
 even comes with Fontanelli's music!

 David - enough of this nonsense, back to work

 --
 ***
 David van Ooijen
 davidvanooi...@gmail.com
 www.davidvanooijen.nl
 ***



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-- 
***
David van Ooijen
davidvanooi...@gmail.com
www.davidvanooijen.nl
***

[LUTE] Attiorbato

2012-05-25 Thread sterling price

   Hi--Last week I asked the list about tuning my 14 course attiorbato as
   a tiorbino...well I decided to keep it as a liuto attiorbato. I had not
   played it at all for several years and I am now having a blast playing
   some of the archlute rep as well as ren lute music including Dowland
   (don't be too shocked...) Anyway--I have a question about my lute. It
   was my first lute, bought in 1994 from the early Music Shop and was
   originally 12 courses. I'm not sure what its based on, but it looks
   like the VA Choc attiorbato. It is signed thus: T.A. Johnson,
   Newcastle on Tyne 1991. Does anyone have any info on this maker? And
   any ideas on why it was made with just 12 courses? I have since
   converted it to 14 courses and it works great.

   --Sterling

   --


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[LUTE] Re: Besard's Novus Partus

2014-05-21 Thread Jean-Marie Poirier

Hi Thomas,

Besard's nova testudo is a 10 course lute in  G with the 2 top strings down 
an octave, like a theorbo, only a theorbo woudl rather be in A and would have 
more courses (14 most of the time). So, yes it's a lute, in G, with a 
re-entrant tuning...

Best,

Jean-Marie
--
 
   Hello all--
   Do any of you have a view(s) on what instrument Besard wanted for his
   Nova Testudo?  The other lutes seem pretty clearly to be 9 or 10 course
   instruments a 4th apart.  The top lute, to me, looks like he's assuming
   reentrant tuning.  I'm tempted to think of Castaldi's tiorbino, but
   that seems less likely outside of Italy that early in the 17th c.
   Thoughts?
   Thanks kindly,
   Thomas Walker, Jr.

   --


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[LUTE] Re: Tiorba

2015-06-17 Thread Martyn Hodgson

   Dear Howard,
   I think you mean unlikely rather than inconceivable. Tho' even this is
   questionable: from the historical evidence it seems quite likely that
   'NO historical players ever used single-strung archlutes''. Much in the
   same way that players at the time would not have employed a single
   strung lute.
   regards,
   Martyn
   From: howard posner howardpos...@ca.rr.com
   To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Sent: Tuesday, 16 June 2015, 22:12
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: Tiorba
On Jun 16, 2015, at 1:54 PM, Roland Hayes
   [1]rha...@legalaidbuffalo.org wrote:

..and Castaldi's illustration is phoney?
   The illustration you're thinking of is almost certainly a tiorbino.
   That said, it's inconceivable that in nearly two centuries nobody NO
   historical players ever used single-strung archlutes.  It was as easy
   for them to do it as for us.
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Re=3A?=_?=_Re=3A?= 14 Course Powered Tiorbino

2017-03-05 Thread Ralf Mattes

 
Am Sonntag, 05. März 2017 15:37 CET, Anthony Hart  
schrieb: 
 
>I do not think my message got transmitted.
> 
>I read with interest your post to the Lute discussion group.I have been
>thinking of doing the same with my attiorbato. I have problems in
>calculating the correct  strings. What actual tuning do you use?
> 

It has been a long time since I last did this, but it prettry much boild down 
to combining 
a attiorbato in a and an attiorbato in g:

 1.  original a from a-instrument
 2.  original from a-instrument
 3. <-- that one is tricky: you either need a very thin string or a rather 
short attiorbato to start with 
 4. first from g-instrument
 5. second from g-instrument
 6. third from g-instrument  


HTH Ralf Mattes


 
 
 
 





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[LUTE] Re: Tiorbino

2020-06-17 Thread i...@lutecorner.ch

   The Brussel instrument is depicted in âThe Lute in Europe 2" p. 114.
   Because of the disposition of the petit jeu with 5 courses (1x1 + 4x2)
   I think it could be a Chitarra attiorbata. The tiorbina tablature in
   Castaldi asks for 6 courses in the petit jeu.

   Andreas

   Am 17.06.2020 um 22:37 schrieb Mathias RÃ¶sel
   <[1]mathias.roe...@t-online.de>:

   Dear David, dear Bruno,
   thanks to both of you so much!
   I agree that the Cleveland instrument, beautiful as it may be, seems
   more
   likely to be a small arciliuto. And I'm grateful for your pointing at
   MH
   Brussels No.1578. I shall try to get pictures and/or plans.
   Mathias
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References

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   2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Tiorbino

2020-06-18 Thread Martin Shepherd


Hi All,

I don't have many details of the Cleveland instrument, but I do have the 
poster!  I see 14 pegs for the petit jeu (7x2) and 8 pegs for the grand 
jeu (4x2), making it a 12-course liuto attiorbato. I think it was Larry 
Brown who had some measurements, if I remember correctly the petit jeu 
is 61cm.


Martin

On 17/06/2020 22:37, Mathias Rösel wrote:

Dear David, dear Bruno,
thanks to both of you so much!
I agree that the Cleveland instrument, beautiful as it may be, seems more
likely to be a small arciliuto. And I'm grateful for your pointing at MH
Brussels No.1578. I shall try to get pictures and/or plans.
Mathias



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[LUTE] Re: Tiorbino

2020-06-18 Thread David Van Edwards


Dear Martin,

It's up on Cleveland's website with lots of good 
photos at 
https://www.clevelandart.org/art/1918.368


Almost all original but according to my notes it 
has new bridge and nuts so we will never know for 
sure but they have it strung as 8 single strings 
in on the extension. Rather than 4 doubles which 
would I agree make it a liuto attiorbato.


8 singles tend towards thinking archlute, or 
perhaps tiorbino which is what the museum 
suggest, but it is rather big for that.


Your figures of 7x2 and 4x2 come to an 11 course 
lute if my maths is right! But curiously the 
museum (and presumably the bridge?) have it 
strung as 6x2 in spite of the 14 pegs.


Nothing can be quite certain but I'm inclined to 
agree with your general feeling that it's a small 
11 course liuto attiorbato, after all the famous 
14 course liuto in Paris E 1028 is only 588mm. 
According to my notes it was restored in 1988 by 
Ray Nurse.


Best wishes,

David


At 09:27 +0200 18/6/20, Martin Shepherd wrote:

Hi All,

I don't have many details of the Cleveland 
instrument, but I do have the poster!  I see 14 
pegs for the petit jeu (7x2) and 8 pegs for the 
grand jeu (4x2), making it a 12-course liuto 
attiorbato. I think it was Larry Brown who had 
some measurements, if I remember correctly the 
petit jeu is 61cm.


Martin

On 17/06/2020 22:37, Mathias Rösel wrote:

Dear David, dear Bruno,
thanks to both of you so much!
I agree that the Cleveland instrument, beautiful as it may be, seems more
likely to be a small arciliuto. And I'm grateful for your pointing at MH
Brussels No.1578. I shall try to get pictures and/or plans.
Mathias



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[LUTE] Re: Tiorbino

2020-06-18 Thread Bruno Cognyl-Fournier

--ba078705a85c0e35
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

oops, forgot the pics



Le jeu. 18 juin 2020 Ã  09:47, Bruno Cognyl-Fournier 
a Ã©crit :

> This is the version Colin Everett, now deceased Canadian luther, made. He
> made  several of these, 13 and 14 courses. Mine is 57/92  and tuned as an
> archlute in G. It us very easy to play and allows me to play everything
> from early Italian to Zamboni and all the English and french renaissance
> and transition repertoire   I love it.
>
> Bruno
>
> Le jeu. 18 juin 2020 5 h 52 a.m., Davide Rebuffa <
> davide.rebu...@fastwebnet.it> a Ã©crit :
>
>>
>>
>> > Il giorno 18 giu 2020, alle ore 11:16, Davide Rebuffa <
>> davide.rebu...@fastwebnet.it> ha scritto:
>> >
>> > Dear all,
>> >
>> > The instrument in Cleveland could be a a very rare example of a
>> 14-course small archlute
>> > (not a "liuto attiorbato" because it has single bourdons)
>> > or a 14-course tiorbino in G.
>> > The brand of the unknown manufacturer is present on the external
>> countercap and bears the initials R. E.
>> > The string lengths are 523 mm and 882 mm.
>> > Since the string length is a bit long for a tiorbino, the third course
>> could be tuned at the higher octave
>> > only if the instrument is tuned in G, not in A.
>> > It was converted  into a 12-course instrument (2x1; 6x2; 4x2) by
>> Sebastian Schelle in 1742.
>> > Ray Nurse restored it in 1988 bringing it back to 6x2; 8x1 as we may
>> assume it was in the 17th century. The bridge was also rebuilt.
>> > The two extra pegs added in the 18th century were nor removed from the
>> pegbox.
>> >
>> > Davide
>> >
>> >> Il giorno 18 giu 2020, alle ore 09:27, Martin Shepherd <
>> mar...@luteshop.co.uk> ha scritto:
>> >>
>> >> Hi All,
>> >>
>> >> I don't have many details of the Cleveland instrument, but I do have
>> the poster!  I see 14 pegs for the petit jeu (7x2) and 8 pegs for the grand
>> jeu (4x2), making it a 12-course liuto attiorbato. I think it was Larry
>> Brown who had some measurements, if I remember correctly the petit jeu is
>> 61cm.
>> >>
>> >> Martin
>> >>
>> >> On 17/06/2020 22:37, Mathias RÃ¶sel wrote:
>> >>> Dear David, dear Bruno,
>> >>> thanks to both of you so much!
>> >>> I agree that the Cleveland instrument, beautiful as it may be, seems
>> more
>> >>> likely to be a small arciliuto. And I'm grateful for your pointing at
>> MH
>> >>> Brussels No.1578. I shall try to get pictures and/or plans.
>> >>> Mathias
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>> >>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
>> >> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>>

--ba078705a85c0e35
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

oops, forgot the 
picsLeÂ jeu. 18 juin 2020 Ã Â 09:47, Bruno 
Cognyl-Fournier mailto:fournier...@gmail.com;>fournier...@gmail.com a Ã©critÂ 
:This is the version Colin Everett, now deceased 
Canadian luther, made. He madeÂ  several of these, 13 and 14 courses. Mine is 
57/92Â  and tuned as an archlute in G. It us very easy to play and allows me to 
play everything from early Italian to Zamboni and all the English and french 
renaissance and transition repertoireÂ  Â I love 
it.BrunoLe jeu. 18 juin 2020 5 h 52 a.m., Davide Rebuffa 
mailto:davide.rebu...@fastwebnet.it; target="_blank">davi!
 de.rebu...@fastwebnet.it a Ã©critÂ :

 Il giorno 18 giu 2020, alle ore 11:16, Davide Rebuffa mailto:davide.rebu...@fastwebnet.it; rel="noreferrer" 
target="_blank">davide.rebu...@fastwebnet.it ha scritto:
 
 Dear all,
 
 The instrument in Cleveland could be a a very rare example of a 14-course 
small archlute 
 (not a liuto attiorbato because it has single bourdons)
 or a 14-course tiorbino in G. 
 The brand of the unknown manufacturer is present on the external 
countercap and bears the initials R. E. 
 The string lengths are 523 mm and 882 mm.
 Since the string length is a bit long for a tiorbino, the third course 
could be tuned at the higher octave
 only if the instrument is tuned in G, not in A.
 It was convertedÂ  i

[LUTE] Re: Tiorbino, by Castaldi

2008-02-05 Thread Jerzy Zak



Tremendous thanks for this, Diego. Transcibing such in an old and  
foreign language text from an original would be a nightmare for me.

Jurek
_


On 2008-02-05, at 21:56, Diego Cantalupi wrote:


That's the (difficult) text.
I'll try to upload he page later


ALLA NOBILE, SPLENDIDA E VIRTUOSA GIOVENTU' GENOVESE


Il Liuto Re degli stromenti bontà del suo essere, conforme a la  
natura de vecchi, è ritroso e dificile, stracco di soffrire lo  
strapazzo barbieresco che ne fa la turba errante, Havendo dal  
Arciduchessa Tiorba, che l'altro giorno per non mancar d'herede  
egli prese per moglie havuto un figliuoletto vago, e piacevole, che  
più al Altezza de la Madre che a la Maiestà del genitore  
rassomigliandosi, Tiorbino fù chiamato, visto l'aplauso universale  
che in omni genere musicorum si dava a la Donna  al putto, come  
lieto di una tal successione, così mezzo disperato per non trovar  
più fra quei che si lambiccano in suo servitio, chi modernamente lo  
contenti, del suo caro Piccinino, et altri pochi in poi, s'è  
risoluto d'inviarsi a la volta degli Antipodi, onde hà fatto prima  
solenne rinuntia, de la Liutesca corona reale che tiene, e d'ogni  
sua pretensione a la Regina moglie,  al figliuolo, accortosi che  
l'una, e l'altro, quando stiano accoppiati insieme, fanno ottimo  
concerto, e perfettamente, e con poco fatica danno quella  
sodisfattione a tutto il mondo, che a sua Maestà non è mai bastato  
l'animo di fare se non in processo di lunghissimo tempo.
Hora che ciò ch'io dico sia vero eccone a le SS. VV. virtuosissime  
un po' d'abbozzo in questa miei capricci li quali piu intel  
ligibile ch'io habbia potuto, per non haver io giamai più fatto tal  
mestiero, sono stati intagliati in rame da me così a la grossa per  
diversion di quella dolorosa noia, che continoamente mi dà  
l'inossata palla, che nel mezzo del piè sinistro mi lasciò per  
favorirmi tornato da Roma in patria, ott'anni sono una leggiadra e  
gentii Pistoletta galante, questa mostra dico di fantasticarie  
tiorbesche dedico, dono, e consacro a le SS. VV. come a persone  
nobili, Splendide, e che più d'ogn'altra natione di virtù si  
dilettano; Suplicandole ad accettar voluntieri, e gradire questo  
mio picciol dono, qual egli si sia, per segno del obligo grande,   
immortale ch'io tengo a le carezze fattemi in coteste parti  
mentr'io ci dimorai da le generosità loro, et insieme il buono  
animo mio, che sarà prontissimo quand'io m'accorga che queste non  
gli dispiacciano, di porgere a la giornata con altre gentilezze  
simili a le nobilità de le SS. VV. virtuosissimo trattenimento.  
Così N.S. Iddio le concede il colmo d'ogni felicità, come io lo  
desidero con ogni maggior affetto.


Di Modena XV Lulio 1622 De Le Nobili Splendide, e
Virtuosissime SS. VV. Umilissimo  Devotissiomo
Servitore,

Bellerofonte Castaldi






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[LUTE] Re: Besard's Novus Partus

2014-05-22 Thread jean-michel Catherinot

   I don't understand the text of Besard like that (nor Souris did, and he
   explain that widely in his introduction of the CNRS Besard). All the
   courses from 10th to 3rd are an octave up, and the 2 top strings are as
   normal G lute (so re-entrant tuning, not far from tiorbino).
   Le Mercredi 21 mai 2014 23h45, Thomas Walker twlute...@hotmail.com a
   ecrit :
 Thanks kindly, everyone!  It's what I suspected, but the comparative
 rarity of an ordinary lute in reentrant tuning sent my looking for
 some verification.
 Cheers,
 tom
  Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 20:17:25 +0200
  To: [1]mar...@luteshop.co.uk; [2]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
  From: [3]jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr
  Subject: [LUTE] Re: Besard's Novus Partus
 
   Nous appelons celui-ci Nouveau Luth non parce qu'il aurait une
 forme (construction) nouvelle, mais seulement `a cause du nouvel
 accord, qui n'est pas ingrat selon l'opinion de maintes (personnes).
 C'est nous qui l'avons invente un jour. S'il differe peu en accord du
 theorbe (comme on l'appelle), pourtant bien avant de connaitre cet
 instrument j'accordais souvent le luth de cette maniere, mieux apte
 pour la musique de n'importe quelle voix. Et ce seulement parce que
 (par rapport `a l'accord ordinaire) la basse frappe l'oreille de
   fac,on
 plus claire, sonore et nette. Pourtant pour cet accord il est
 absolument necessaire de composer de morceaux speciaux.
 
  Voici la traduction du passage de Besard proposee par Dimitri
 Goldobine...
 
  Re-best, ;-)
 
  Jean-Marie
  --
 
  I think Besard explains the Nova Testudo in his preface - can
 someone
  help with the text? As I remember it is top two courses down an
 octave,
  like the theorbo.
  
  M
  On 21/05/2014 18:10, Thomas Walker wrote:
   Hello all--
   Do any of you have a view(s) on what instrument Besard wanted
   for
 his
   Nova Testudo? The other lutes seem pretty clearly to be 9 or 10
 course
   instruments a 4th apart. The top lute, to me, looks like he's
 assuming
   reentrant tuning. I'm tempted to think of Castaldi's tiorbino,
   but
   that seems less likely outside of Italy that early in the 17th
   c.
   Thoughts?
   Thanks kindly,
   Thomas Walker, Jr.
  
   --
  
  
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
  
  
 
 
 --

   --

References

   1. mailto:mar...@luteshop.co.uk
   2. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   3. mailto:jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr
   4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Besard's Novus Partus

2014-05-22 Thread Rob MacKillop

Wow. I'd love to hear that. Has anyone recorded with that set up?

Rob

www.robmackillop.net 

 On 22 May 2014, at 08:18, jean-michel Catherinot 
 jeanmichel.catheri...@cs.dartmouth.edu wrote:
 
   I don't understand the text of Besard like that (nor Souris did, and he
   explain that widely in his introduction of the CNRS Besard). All the
   courses from 10th to 3rd are an octave up, and the 2 top strings are as
   normal G lute (so re-entrant tuning, not far from tiorbino).
   Le Mercredi 21 mai 2014 23h45, Thomas Walker twlute...@hotmail.com a
   ecrit :
 Thanks kindly, everyone!  It's what I suspected, but the comparative
 rarity of an ordinary lute in reentrant tuning sent my looking for
 some verification.
 Cheers,
 tom
 Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 20:17:25 +0200
 To: [1]mar...@luteshop.co.uk; [2]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 From: [3]jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr
 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Besard's Novus Partus
 
  Nous appelons celui-ci Nouveau Luth non parce qu'il aurait une
 forme (construction) nouvelle, mais seulement `a cause du nouvel
 accord, qui n'est pas ingrat selon l'opinion de maintes (personnes).
 C'est nous qui l'avons invente un jour. S'il differe peu en accord du
 theorbe (comme on l'appelle), pourtant bien avant de connaitre cet
 instrument j'accordais souvent le luth de cette maniere, mieux apte
 pour la musique de n'importe quelle voix. Et ce seulement parce que
 (par rapport `a l'accord ordinaire) la basse frappe l'oreille de
   fac,on
 plus claire, sonore et nette. Pourtant pour cet accord il est
 absolument necessaire de composer de morceaux speciaux.
 
 Voici la traduction du passage de Besard proposee par Dimitri
 Goldobine...
 
 Re-best, ;-)
 
 Jean-Marie
 --
 
 I think Besard explains the Nova Testudo in his preface - can
 someone
 help with the text? As I remember it is top two courses down an
 octave,
 like the theorbo.
 
 M
 On 21/05/2014 18:10, Thomas Walker wrote:
 Hello all--
 Do any of you have a view(s) on what instrument Besard wanted
   for
 his
 Nova Testudo? The other lutes seem pretty clearly to be 9 or 10
 course
 instruments a 4th apart. The top lute, to me, looks like he's
 assuming
 reentrant tuning. I'm tempted to think of Castaldi's tiorbino,
   but
 that seems less likely outside of Italy that early in the 17th
   c.
 Thoughts?
 Thanks kindly,
 Thomas Walker, Jr.
 
 --
 
 
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 --
 
   --
 
 References
 
   1. mailto:mar...@luteshop.co.uk
   2. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   3. mailto:jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr
   4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Besard's Novus Partus

2014-05-22 Thread Jean-Marie Poirier

Quite correct, Jean-Michel ! I was too quick in my response and Dimitri's 
interpretation needed érevision ;-). So all the gear up an octave except 
courses 1 and 2... I will have to try that one day :-) 

Salut et à bientôt, ;-)

Jean-Marie 


--
 
I don't understand the text of Besard like that (nor Souris did, and he 
explain that widely in his introduction of the CNRS Besard). All the courses 
from 10th to 3rd are an octave up, and the 2 top strings are as normal G 
lute (so re-entrant tuning, not far from tiorbino).

Le Mercredi 21 mai 2014 23h45, Thomas Walker twlute...@hotmail.com a écrit :
 


   Thanks kindly, everyone!  It's what I suspected, but the comparative
   rarity of an ordinary lute in reentrant tuning sent my looking for
   some verification.
   Cheers,
   tom
    Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 20:17:25 +0200
    To: mar...@luteshop.co.uk; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
    From: jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr
    Subject: [LUTE] Re: Besard's Novus Partus
   
 Nous appelons celui-ci Nouveau Luth non parce qu'il aurait une
   forme (construction) nouvelle, mais seulement `a cause du nouvel
   accord, qui n'est pas ingrat selon l'opinion de maintes (personnes).
   C'est nous qui l'avons invente un jour. S'il differe peu en accord du
   theorbe (comme on l'appelle), pourtant bien avant de connaitre cet
   instrument j'accordais souvent le luth de cette maniere, mieux apte
   pour la musique de n'importe quelle voix. Et ce seulement parce que
   (par rapport `a l'accord ordinaire) la basse frappe l'oreille de fac,on
   plus claire, sonore et nette. Pourtant pour cet accord il est
   absolument necessaire de composer de morceaux speciaux.
   
    Voici la traduction du passage de Besard proposee par Dimitri
   Goldobine...
   
    Re-best, ;-)
   
    Jean-Marie
    --
   
    I think Besard explains the Nova Testudo in his preface - can
   someone
    help with the text? As I remember it is top two courses down an
   octave,
    like the theorbo.
    
    M
    On 21/05/2014 18:10, Thomas Walker wrote:
 Hello all--
 Do any of you have a view(s) on what instrument Besard wanted for
   his
 Nova Testudo? The other lutes seem pretty clearly to be 9 or 10
   course
 instruments a 4th apart. The top lute, to me, looks like he's
   assuming
 reentrant tuning. I'm tempted to think of Castaldi's tiorbino, but
 that seems less likely outside of Italy that early in the 17th c.
 Thoughts?
 Thanks kindly,
 Thomas Walker, Jr.
    
 --
    
    
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
    
    
   
   

   --

[LUTE] Re: Lute Strings for theorbo

2011-08-11 Thread Taco Walstra


On 08/11/2011 09:30 AM, Martyn Hodgson wrote:

Playing close to the bridge is a story in itself. It's not proved that 
it was common practice on theorbo. It's logical however, but playing 
with nails was perhaps also used, or both.
What you call historical practice... only lower the first course... 
was the tuning used on an english theorbo, not the standard theorbo. 
Historical practice was tuning small theorbos in dm, although even 
this is not very certain (it's mostly based on a few examples, like the 
pieces by visee which exist in staff notation and theorbo tablature).
Even the small tiorbino usied in the italian Castaldi music has the 2 
top course reentrant, if I remember well.
But what is the problem with the second course? As you can see in the 
list by David he uses 0.78 mm. that's not 0.36 or whatever. with 
archlutes in G you encounter such problems, not theorbos.
If you use a theorbo only for continuo playing, your advice can be a 
good idea, but I assume that David Smith will surely like to play Visee 
and other beautiful solomusic, which is problematic when you do this.

Taco




Much depends on your technique and whether you play close to the bridge
(as the Old Ones generally seemed to have done) or up to the rose.
However whatever tension you decide upon, with such a small instrument
why don't you follow historical practice and only lower the first
course an octave? The stress of the second course at such a short
string length (at , say, A 415) is well below breaking stress.

MH




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[LUTE] Re: Lute Strings for theorbo

2011-08-11 Thread David Smith

Just for clarity, I am working on the solo music. Once I am comfortable with
that I can proceed to continuo.

Thanks for the suggestions!
Regards
David

-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf
Of Taco Walstra
Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2011 12:57 AM
To: Martyn Hodgson; lute net
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute Strings for theorbo

On 08/11/2011 09:30 AM, Martyn Hodgson wrote:

Playing close to the bridge is a story in itself. It's not proved that it
was common practice on theorbo. It's logical however, but playing with nails
was perhaps also used, or both.
What you call historical practice... only lower the first course... 
was the tuning used on an english theorbo, not the standard theorbo. 
Historical practice was tuning small theorbos in dm, although even this is
not very certain (it's mostly based on a few examples, like the pieces by
visee which exist in staff notation and theorbo tablature).
Even the small tiorbino usied in the italian Castaldi music has the 2 top
course reentrant, if I remember well.
But what is the problem with the second course? As you can see in the list
by David he uses 0.78 mm. that's not 0.36 or whatever. with archlutes in G
you encounter such problems, not theorbos.
If you use a theorbo only for continuo playing, your advice can be a good
idea, but I assume that David Smith will surely like to play Visee and other
beautiful solomusic, which is problematic when you do this.
Taco



 Much depends on your technique and whether you play close to the
bridge
 (as the Old Ones generally seemed to have done) or up to the rose.
 However whatever tension you decide upon, with such a small instrument
 why don't you follow historical practice and only lower the first
 course an octave? The stress of the second course at such a short
 string length (at , say, A 415) is well below breaking stress.

 MH



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[LUTE] Re: long strings?

2011-08-29 Thread Edward C. Yong


Curiously, the small seems to be set up for 1x1, 5x2 on the fingerboard:

http://quality1trader.co.uk/musical-instrument/strings/lute/theorbo-bass-lute/

Their instrument descriptions appear to be cut and pasted from the  
Barber  Harris website. their string lengths for the small and medium  
correspond respectively to BH's tiorbino and theorboed guitars


Awfully curious - I was already amazed enough that they were making  
baroque guitars, but tiorbini and chittare attiorbate as well? I was  
under the impression that these were extremely niche instruments. Is  
there enough of a market for these?


Edward C. Yong
ky...@pacific.net.sg

On 29 Aug 2011, at 4:14 PM, David van Ooijen wrote:


On 29 August 2011 07:44, Garry Warber garrywar...@hughes.net wrote:
eBay, Ouality1traders, theorbo bass lute, small.  I know I'm going  
to be
vilified, but their medium, which goes out of stock fast, is the  
one of my


I suppose you're talking about this:
http://quality1trader.co.uk/musical-instrument/strings/lute/theorbo-bass-lute-medium/

It's not a theorbo but a theorboed guitar. An interesting instrument
but it has a very limited repertoire. It has been the point of a
recent discussion on this list.
With the current setup of 1x1, 4x2 on the fingerboard and 9x1
diapassons you'll have trouble setting it up as a theorbo (you'll need
to adapt both bridge and nut, and bridge might not be wide enough for
the extra holes).
Diapasson length of 104cm would just be enough for plain gut, but
nylon won't work. Metal wounds will do, but you'll have to adopt your
technique to stop them from buzzing on forever.

Caveat emptor.

David


***
David van Ooijen
davidvanooi...@gmail.com
www.davidvanooijen.nl
***



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[LUTE] Re: long strings?

2011-08-29 Thread Eugene C. Braig IV

Plugging and re-drilling a bridge to suit whatever configuration a player
has need of seems commonplace enough.  If a re-drill isn't practical, an
all-out and appropriately drilled replacement is pretty trivial in the grand
scheme of luthier labor.  If anything, these tweaks/fixes are probably more
necessary to the baser entry-level instruments and can often improve them.

Best,
Eugene



 -Original Message-
 From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
 Behalf Of David van Ooijen
 Sent: Monday, August 29, 2011 12:44 PM
 To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Subject: [LUTE] Re: long strings?
 
 The point is, it has only five courses on the fingerboard. Playing any
 kind of lute or theorbo music on it would mean redrilling the bridge
 to accomodate six, hazardous enough on a 'decent' instrument, but I'm
 not sure this one will be up to it.
 
 David
 
 On 29 August 2011 15:17, Garry Warber garrywar...@hughes.net wrote:
  Not to be argumentative, but...  :-)  I spent over 25 years building and
  playing classic guitars, and this theorobed guitar is a member of the
 lute
  family, beyond doubt...  But, call it as you will, and no doubt Stephen
 and
  Sandi are correct looking from their background.  This stuff greatly
 depends
  upon which expert is looking at it...  :-)
  Garry
 
  -Original Message- From: David van Ooijen
  Sent: Monday, August 29, 2011 5:21 AM
  To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
  Subject: [LUTE] Re: long strings?
 
  Their tiorbino (Theorbo Bass Lute small ...) has (Stephen and Sandi's)
  description of the theorbood guitar (Theorbo Bass Lute medium). It
  even comes with Fontanelli's music!
 
  David - enough of this nonsense, back to work
 
  --
  ***
  David van Ooijen
  davidvanooi...@gmail.com
  www.davidvanooijen.nl
  ***
 
 
 
  To get on or off this list see list information at
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 David van Ooijen
 davidvanooi...@gmail.com
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 ***

[LUTE] Re: Bellorofonte Castaldi

2011-09-07 Thread wikla


Beautiful playing Dominic! Thanks!

But I cannot see the player and the hall. Of course music is mainly sound,
but to see the performance adds so much to the whole. At least to me. So
please, make also a video of your enjoyable performance!

best,

Arto

PS I tried one of the duets with a harpist. She played the tiorbino part.
Worked very well, but we did not have time enough to perform the piece.

On Wed, 7 Sep 2011 08:32:28 +, Dominic Robillard
ubaldrosa...@hotmail.de wrote:
 Hello Lute listers,
 
Perhaps some of you may have some interest in the music Bellorofonte
Castaldi.  Although I would prefer to play his amazing theorbo duets,
his solo works for theorbo are also fantastic; he had a need to use
all
of his 14 strings...  I've uploaded two of my favorites: Lusinghevole
passeggio and Ritornello primo.  Theorbo strung in gut,  A'= 480.
 
[1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6w7Vf1_B9M
 
 
[2]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsJ5Gn8UesEfeature=related
 
 
Dominic
 
--
 
 References
 
Visible links
1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6w7Vf1_B9M
2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsJ5Gn8UesEfeature=related
 
Hidden links:
3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6w7Vf1_B9M
 
 
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[LUTE] Re: Besard's Novus Partus

2014-05-21 Thread Jean-Marie Poirier

 Nous appelons celui-ci Nouveau Luth non parce qu'il aurait une forme 
(construction) nouvelle, mais seulement à cause du nouvel accord, qui n'est pas 
ingrat selon l'opinion de maintes (personnes). C'est nous qui l'avons inventé 
un jour. S'il diffère peu en accord du théorbe (comme on l'appelle), pourtant 
bien avant de connaître cet instrument j'accordais souvent le luth de cette 
manière, mieux apte pour la musique de n'importe quelle voix. Et ce seulement 
parce que (par rapport à l'accord ordinaire) la basse frappe l'oreille de façon 
plus claire, sonore et nette. Pourtant pour cet accord il est absolument 
nécessaire de composer de morceaux spéciaux.

Voici la traduction du passage de Besard proposée par Dimitri Goldobine...

Re-best, ;-)

Jean-Marie
--
 
I think Besard explains the Nova Testudo in his preface - can someone 
help with the text?  As I remember it is top two courses down an octave, 
like the theorbo.

M
On 21/05/2014 18:10, Thomas Walker wrote:
 Hello all--
 Do any of you have a view(s) on what instrument Besard wanted for his
 Nova Testudo?  The other lutes seem pretty clearly to be 9 or 10 course
 instruments a 4th apart.  The top lute, to me, looks like he's assuming
 reentrant tuning.  I'm tempted to think of Castaldi's tiorbino, but
 that seems less likely outside of Italy that early in the 17th c.
 Thoughts?
 Thanks kindly,
 Thomas Walker, Jr.

 --


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[LUTE] Re: Besard's Novus Partus

2014-05-22 Thread Martyn Hodgson

   Dear Jean-Marie,
   I don't have a copy of Novus Partus, but is it possible that a G tuning
   is merely nominal and that he might have expected the actual pitch of
   the instrument to be higher, say with first course at around c or d?
   Otherwise, if the instrument was indeed around the size of a general G
   lute, the string stress on the first and particularly the second course
   would have been very low indeed.
   Martyn
 __

   From: Jean-Marie Poirier jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr
   To: Thomas Walker twlute...@hotmail.com; 'Lute List'
   lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Sent: Wednesday, 21 y of this May 2014, 19:12
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: Besard's Novus Partus
   Hi Thomas,
   Besard's nova testudo is a 10 course lute in  G with the 2 top
   strings down an octave, like a theorbo, only a theorbo woudl rather be
   in A and would have more courses (14 most of the time). So, yes it's a
   lute, in G, with a re-entrant tuning...
   Best,
   Jean-Marie
   --
 Hello all--
 Do any of you have a view(s) on what instrument Besard wanted for
   his
 Nova Testudo?  The other lutes seem pretty clearly to be 9 or 10
   course
 instruments a 4th apart.  The top lute, to me, looks like he's
   assuming
 reentrant tuning.  I'm tempted to think of Castaldi's tiorbino, but
 that seems less likely outside of Italy that early in the 17th c.
 Thoughts?
 Thanks kindly,
 Thomas Walker, Jr.
   
 --
   
   
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

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[LUTE] Re: Tiorbino

2020-06-18 Thread David Van Edwards


Dear Andreas,

Yes I'm sorry, you are right, 5 courses on the 
petit jeu is not what Castaldi calls for. I must 
change my notes which I made many years ago!


But the relative length of the extension on this 
instrument does make it _look_ more like the 
pictures which Castaldi engraved himself for his 
publication than the other two candidates.


Best wishes,

David





  The Brussel instrument is depicted in ÄûThe Lute in Europe 2" p. 114.
   Because of the disposition of the petit jeu with 5 courses (1x1 + 4x2)
   I think it could be a Chitarra attiorbata. The tiorbina tablature in
   Castaldi asks for 6 courses in the petit jeu.

   Andreas

   Am 17.06.2020 um 22:37 schrieb Mathias Rsel
   <[1]mathias.roe...@t-online.de>:

   Dear David, dear Bruno,
   thanks to both of you so much!
   I agree that the Cleveland instrument, beautiful as it may be, seems
   more
   likely to be a small arciliuto. And I'm grateful for your pointing at
   MH
   Brussels No.1578. I shall try to get pictures and/or plans.
   Mathias
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[LUTE] Re: Tiorbino - surprising no evidence

2008-02-05 Thread Jerzy Zak


Dear Diego,


On 2008-02-05, at 21:51, Diego Cantalupi wrote:

Changing instrumentation in music of the time is as natural as   
breathing.

Almost all title pages of printed music testify to it.


Not so easy... it's very difficult, if not impossible, to find any  
music for

theorbo
in mensural notation written in the same times.


Perhaps not theorbo and not in Italy, but from France we have Perrine  
and especially d'Anglebert imaginatively transcribing lute music,  
without any prejudice, despite octaves on the lute, etc.



I'm sure there's a reason for this. Also I've never seen a printed
page testifying it on any lute and theorbo music book.


In a way the Cazzati print I mentioned yesterday can be a trace.  
Beside, again on a French soil, a book by Gallot says you can play it  
on other instruments, and of course de Visée, Dieupart (1667-1740),  
who else...? The tablature was an awful barrier, therefor my theory  
many Italian lutenists (including tiorbists) said addio! to that type  
of notation.



Of course, if you play a violin part with a cornetto or viceversa,
there are no problems! But playing a theorbo part (with all the  
problems

coming
from unisons, in particoular in Castaldi music) it's far from being  
natural.
Of course it works.  It works a little better on double harp, since  
it can

plays unisons...


That reminds me my examples to studens showing an honest and complete  
transcription (including dublings) of some 'matured' baroque guitar  
piece, say by Corbetta or Murcia, and how imposible it is, or on the  
other hand how groundless it is in order to understand the basically  
simple texture.



You can hear my experiment here (with some birds), selecting track 3.
You can transcribe it for two organs, also
hammond organs, it will work, but it won't be natural.
Also Kenneth Gilbert's edition of HK is very unnatural: of course very
easy to do, but since I'm quite sure he knows some counterpoint,
it would have benn better a sort of voices reconstructions...


I haven't seen it, but of course he shoud impersonate himself with  
someone like Frescobaldi or Rossi. But that's a persistent editorial  
problem - what to give to paper, and what to forgive to fingers.


Jurek
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[LUTE] Re: baroque mandolin picking

2009-05-06 Thread David van Ooijen

On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 10:38 PM, Eugene C. Braig IV brai...@osu.edu wrote:

 [Eugene C. Braig IV] There is no evidence that there WAS a four-course,
 'violin-tuned' mandolin type when Vivaldi was writing his mandolino or leuto
.
 All evidence of performance on four-course, violin-tuned mandolins of which
 I'm aware--not only the wire-strung Neapolitan type, but also the wholly
 gut-strung mandolino Cremonese/Bresciano--was with plectra, either of quill
 (on Neapolitan types) or a shaped sliver of wood (on Cremonese types).  I am
.
 You are right regarding the we don't really know regarding fingers vs.
 quill on Vivaldi.  However, if you're looking to do HIP Vivaldi, it almost
 certainly should be on a five- or six-course, fourth-tuned instrument
 ([g]-b-e'-a'-d''-g'') and at least probably with the fingers.
.
 plectrum on fourth-tuned instruments seems the status quo for recent
 somewhat-HIP performances of Vivaldi).


I see. I got 4ths tuned mixed up with 5ths tuned, scatter brain, hence
my 'mandolines-for-dummies' phrase: tuned as a violin.
My only excuse is I'm writing these e-mails in the breaks of a
home-recording session of some Bach ...

Yes, today's mandolin had 4 courses, top three nylon, bottom one
overspun, tuned in 5ths like a violin. and played with a quill (goose,
I think, sounded very lovely and sweet).


 [Eugene C. Braig IV] Sounds yummy.  If the Castaldi mentioned is
 Bellerofonte, that's way before there is any evidence of violin-tuned
 mandolins.

For sure, but this is for an all-arrangements programme anyway. Not me
playing, by the way, a theorbo pupil brought her mandolin friend. The
Castaldi is obviously for tiorbino (the mother of all toy theorbos)
and theorbo. The arrangements were well done, but the full chords of
the theorbo could not be matched by the mandolin. The faster chord
sequences could be played non-broken by the theorbo, but not by the
quill. A convincing compromise was found in the end.

Thank you very much, I learned a lot, and know a little bit better
what to expect, what to acccept as compromise, and what I can ask for
if she comes again.

David - time to listen to myself now ...

-- 
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davidvanooi...@gmail.com
www.davidvanooijen.nl
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[LUTE] Re: long strings?

2011-08-29 Thread dwinheld

   Another point for modern versions of these extended neck diapason
   burdened instruments-  modern builders know how fickle, indecisive, and
   variable are the needs of us modern players; it is a simple matter to
   have in place pre-drilled extra bridge holes, long enough nut to
   accommodate at least one more course,  plenty of pegs at both
   pegboxes. So many theorbi, arciliuti, etc. can be set up as 6 x 8, 8 x
   6, 7 x 7, single or double courses. You pick your strings and play
   around until you have the best set-up. I'm still playing around with my
   own archlute, part of the fun. No reason this thing couldn't also be
   set up to go as a 6 x 8 as easily as the original 5 x 9.
   In fact, just went back and looked at the one Rob is playing- guess
   what? 11 pegs in the lower pegbox. It actually isn't that hard to drill
   a few holes in the bridge, (done it myself- 8ve string hole at the 8th
   course to make my archlute 8 x 6) but of course great care  precision
   are called for. Remember the bow drill used for just that purpose
   posted here a few weeks ago?
   Dan- more nonsense, don't want to go back to work.
 __

   From: David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com
   To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Sent: Monday, August 29, 2011 9:43:50 AM
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: long strings?
   The point is, it has only five courses on the fingerboard. Playing any
   kind of lute or theorbo music on it would mean redrilling the bridge
   to accomodate six, hazardous enough on a 'decent' instrument, but I'm
   not sure this one will be up to it.
   David
   On 29 August 2011 15:17, Garry Warber garrywar...@hughes.net wrote:
Not to be argumentative, but...  :-)  I spent over 25 years building
   and
playing classic guitars, and this theorobed guitar is a member of
   the lute
family, beyond doubt...  But, call it as you will, and no doubt
   Stephen and
Sandi are correct looking from their background.  This stuff greatly
   depends
upon which expert is looking at it...  :-)
Garry
   
-Original Message- From: David van Ooijen
Sent: Monday, August 29, 2011 5:21 AM
To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [LUTE] Re: long strings?
   
Their tiorbino (Theorbo Bass Lute small ...) has (Stephen and
   Sandi's)
description of the theorbood guitar (Theorbo Bass Lute medium). It
even comes with Fontanelli's music!
   
David - enough of this nonsense, back to work
   
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[LUTE] Re: Besard's Novus Partus

2014-05-21 Thread Thomas Walker

   Thanks kindly, everyone!  It's what I suspected, but the comparative
   rarity of an ordinary lute in reentrant tuning sent my looking for
   some verification.
   Cheers,
   tom
Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 20:17:25 +0200
To: mar...@luteshop.co.uk; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
From: jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Besard's Novus Partus

 Nous appelons celui-ci Nouveau Luth non parce qu'il aurait une
   forme (construction) nouvelle, mais seulement `a cause du nouvel
   accord, qui n'est pas ingrat selon l'opinion de maintes (personnes).
   C'est nous qui l'avons invente un jour. S'il differe peu en accord du
   theorbe (comme on l'appelle), pourtant bien avant de connaitre cet
   instrument j'accordais souvent le luth de cette maniere, mieux apte
   pour la musique de n'importe quelle voix. Et ce seulement parce que
   (par rapport `a l'accord ordinaire) la basse frappe l'oreille de fac,on
   plus claire, sonore et nette. Pourtant pour cet accord il est
   absolument necessaire de composer de morceaux speciaux.

Voici la traduction du passage de Besard proposee par Dimitri
   Goldobine...

Re-best, ;-)

Jean-Marie
--

I think Besard explains the Nova Testudo in his preface - can
   someone
help with the text? As I remember it is top two courses down an
   octave,
like the theorbo.

M
On 21/05/2014 18:10, Thomas Walker wrote:
 Hello all--
 Do any of you have a view(s) on what instrument Besard wanted for
   his
 Nova Testudo? The other lutes seem pretty clearly to be 9 or 10
   course
 instruments a 4th apart. The top lute, to me, looks like he's
   assuming
 reentrant tuning. I'm tempted to think of Castaldi's tiorbino, but
 that seems less likely outside of Italy that early in the 17th c.
 Thoughts?
 Thanks kindly,
 Thomas Walker, Jr.

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[LUTE] Re: continuo

2005-10-08 Thread Eric Hansen


Very good recommendations. Castaldi's _Cappricci a due stromenti cioe tiorba e 
tiorbino e per sonar solo varie sorti di balli fantasticarie_ is also 
instructive for the songs in it, set for solo voice. The accompaniment is a 
bass line, beneath which is a realization in tablature for theorbo. The 
tablature gives some idea of style as well as harmonic realization. The book is 
a Minkoff Reprint (1981), with ISBN 2-8266-0718-9.

Eric Hansen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]




 --- On Sat 10/08, Taco Walstra  [EMAIL PROTECTED]  wrote:
From: Taco Walstra [mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2005 13:43:41 +0200
Subject: [LUTE] Re: continuo

On Saturday 08 October 2005 12:39, you wrote:brbrAs said before in the 'new 
boy's' thread the book by Nigel North is the best brstarting book. It gives 
excellent information with some worked out examples brin tablature. In my 
opinion the theoretical chapter on music theory is a bit brshort, when 
starting to figure your own unfigured bass part; it's more an broutline for 
people who already know everything about harmonics, 6, 6/4 brinversions etc. 
etc. but this can also be found in other books. brbrThe french lute society 
has also some booklet on continuo, but of course in brfrench and not known to 
me. brbrA very good book is TraitÃ© d'accompagnement pour le thÃ©orbe et 
le clavessin br(Paris, 1690) by Denis Delair, available in facsimile by 
Minkoff. The English brtranslation is unfortunately not anymore available, 
but can be found in some bruniversity libraries.brbrComplicated but still 
interesting is brArnold, The art of accompaniment from 
a thorough bass as practised in the 17th brand 18th centuries (Dover 
publications, 2 paperbacks). brbrFleury - Methode pour apprendre facilement 
a toucher le theorbe sur la brbasse-continue, 1660. Minkoff facsimile. Lots 
of mistakes, generally not brrecommended, only historically 
interesting.brbrAgazzari - del sonare sopra 'l basso con tutti li stromenti 
e dell' uso loro brnel conserto, Sienna 1607. Very interesting essay. 
Translation can be found brin Arnold but also on internet. It's more for 
historical background because brof it's early date, not for learning 
continuo. brbrThe 'English songs 1625-1660', Musica Brittanica is a good 
starter, because brthe bass part is worked out in staff, easy songs which fit 
very good on brtheorbo.brTacobr Hi folks,brbr Are there any tutors 
for learning continuo on the theorbo?brbr Thanks,brbr 
Dennisbrbrbrbrbr To get on or off this list see list information 
atbr 
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.htmlbrbrbr

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[LUTE] Re: Pittoni's theorbo?

2008-02-08 Thread Jean-Marie Poirier

(Sorry David for sending this to your private mailbox. I don't master yet all 
the subtleties of replying to the list when I get messages from such or such 
person )

Thanks David. That's a clear statement, full of good sense and and I totally 
concur. My not so small theorbo, which  I use for continuo, is 80 cm on the 
fingerboard and I have not particularly small hands, being more than 6 ft tall, 
but I must confess I have already quite a handful of it... My smaller 
theorbo, which I occasionally use for continuo too :) is 73 cm, and that would 
almost make a tiorbino of it if I understand well... ;-) !

Best,

Jean-Marie

Martyn wrote:


If you have anything like the Praetorius, Mace, Picinni, Talbot evidence on 
large theorbos but clearly relating to smalI instruments in this tuning, I'd 
like to see it please.


So far we have seen evidence of reentrant tuning for large theorbos, thank 
you for the references. And we have solo music requiring reentrant tuning 
and strongly suggesting a-tuning (Kapsberger). However, we have not seen 
evidence stating small theorbos could not be tuned reentrant. Your opinion 
on the matter is clear, but your arguments are not. I hate to be taking 
sides in an argument that could, and should, bring us all to a better 
understanding of the historical record and, especially interesting for me, 
its consequences for our own playing today, but as it stands now I think the 
burden of proof is on your side: what are the arguments to deny the 
possibility of tuning a small theorbo reentrant in a? Saying, as I 
understand you to do, that the fact that large theorbos were tuned reentrant 
is proof small theorbos were not tuned reentrant, does not make sense. I 
agree with you that bigger is better for much of theorbo continuo practice. 
I agree with you that many of us, myself included, have a 'toy' theorbos 
(76cm here!) not ideally suited for some of the continuo repertoire 
(Montevredi las weekend!) we play on it nonetheless. I agree with you that 
covering up the defects of a small theorbo by using overspun basses on 6 
(and lower if present at the fingerboard) is a modern solution. But I see no 
evidence denying the historical possibility of tuning a small theorbo 
reentrant in a. On the contrary, some would argue that the solo music (in a) 
would require a small theorbo as it would require rather very large hands to 
be played on one of the very large continuo theorbos.

respectfully

David



David van Ooijen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.davidvanooijen.nl
 




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[LUTE] Stephen Barber

2008-02-21 Thread Martyn Hodgson

 
  Dear Stephen Barber,
   
  It has just been brought to my attention that your website contains a 
scurrilous personal attack on me. Since the attack is based on a blatant 
misrepresentation of observations I first made on an internet site, it is also 
appropriate to copy my response there.
   
  I'm told that you have a history of making such scurrilous and often 
inaccurate allegations (including I'm also informed of accusations of theft by 
other makers) and, indeed, your current website has more, including: your 
English theorbo details being  'copied by another luthier'; a 
'mutually-supportive rumour-mill' by those failing to agree with you about 
Edlinger,etc.  Some may, of course, choose to ignore your comments as appearing 
to be deluded irrational rantings but others believe such public 
misrepresentations should always be firmly addressed.
   
  In short, you state that my description (and those of my 'cronies' as you put 
it) of  small theorboes as 'toys' is 'puerile, inaccurate and ill-informed'; 
and, indeed, it might well be if that is only what I wrote.  In fact, if you 
read what was actually written in the thread, you'll see that my comment about 
'toys' only applied to small instruments (say, fingered string length in the 
high 70s) being strung as double reentrant in the A or G tuning and I 
specifically excluded single reentrant small theorboes or double reentrant 
instruments at a significantly higher nominal pitch (eg the lesser French 
Theorbo in D; or the tiorbino) from my comment.  It is especially surprising 
that you oppose my position since all the double reentrant theorboes in A and G 
listed on your own website (other than your 'own design') are directly in line 
with it!  ie in mm: 930, 895, 860, 860, 890, 984, 900, 840, 865.
   
  Further, as you will also know from reading the thread, the debate came about 
because of a particular response to a query about the size of double reentrant 
theorbos in A or G; this response stated that  'anything over 82 (cm) is a 
speciality instrument only for people with huge hands or for those who only 
ever play in high positions'.  It is again surprising, my dear Stephen, that 
you also now seem to support this view,  since all the theorbos in A or G 
(other than your 'own design') which you offer are for larger instruments than 
82cm, and many much larger!
   
  Perhaps, in my own case, your antipathy and clumsy personal attacks may stem 
from my temerity some years ago in first privately questioning some of your 
speculations.  However, quite why you feel impelled to personally attack, 
misrepresent and generally accuse so many others is a more worrying 
characteristic.
   
  Martyn Hodgson
   
  PS  You obviously missed my recent recital to the Lute Society and so you 
also missed the opportunity to see my gallichon which many admired.  It is 
based on the 1773 Stautinger and it was in considering the identity of this 
instrument which first led me to identify this entire family of instruments 
(FoMRHI Quarterly 1979).  I should be grateful if you would kindly cite my 
paper on your website in the section on mandoras/gallichons.  MH.
   
   

   
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[LUTE] Re: Non-Toy Theorbo for rent

2009-02-17 Thread howard posner

On Feb 17, 2009, at 3:42 PM, Stewart McCoy wrote:

There are various 17^th-century sources which tell us things about
theorboes, but it is futile to dismiss them all out of hand, just
because they don't happen to have exactly the wording we want, or
because what they say doesn't apply to all circumstances.

Nobody suggested doing anything of the sort.  I was responding to a
categorical statement that what they did back then was tune to the
highest pitch
that is possible with the thinnest useable string.

If I read a statement like that, I immediately ask:

1.  Who was THEY?  There were players all over Europe, and we know
that there were drastic differences in the sound of their
instruments; e.g. Mersenne's comment that archlutes in Italy were
louder than French theorbos (a suspicious statement, I know, since I
doubt he heard them side by side, but still in line with what we know
of Italian and French style of the day).

2.  When was THEN?  1603?  1712?  Was the the theorbo player in
Handel's Giulio Cesare in London in 1724 stringing and playing his
instrument the same way as the third theorbo player in Monteverdi's
Orfeo in 1610?

3.  What is the thinnest useable string?  Is thinnest useable a
valid concept?  Assuming it is, what does it mean?  The thinnest
string that won't break as soon as you put it on and tune it up?  Not
likely.  More likely the thinnest string that will give you a sound
you like, which is to say, the criterion is not maximum thinness
(which has been scientifically proven to equal minimum thickness) but
the optimum thickness, which is to say the thickness the player
likes, which is to say the whole concept of thinnest useable string
is meaningless.  This is one reason I was curious to know if any
historical source says highest pitch possible with the thinnest
useable string.

By Reason of the Largeness of It, we are constrain'd to make
 use of an
Octave Treble-String, that is, of a Thick String, which stands
 Eight
Notes Lower, than the String of a Smaller Lute, (for no Strings
 can be
made so Strong, that will stand to the Pitch of Consort, upon such
Large Sciz'd Lutes) and for want of a Small Treble-String, the
 Life and
Spruceness of such Ayrey Lessons, is quite lost, and the Ayre much
altered. Nay, I have known, (and It cannot be otherwise) that
 upon some
Theorboes, they have been forc'd to put an Octave String in the 2d.
String's Place; by reason of the very long Scize of the
 Theorboe, which
would not bear a Small String to Its True pitch; because of Its so
great Length, and the Necessity of setting the Lute at such a High
Pitch, which must Agree with the rest of the Instruments.

This concurs with the points Martyn made earlier, that the
 tuning of
the theorbo is determined by the size of the instrument.

No it doesn't.  It says that at some unknown size and unknown pitch
an English theorbo, which was normally single re-entrant, needed to
be double re-entrant.  It does not say that double re-entrant tuning
(or single re-entrant, for that matter) is invariably limited to
instruments of a certain size.  It tells us nothing about Castaldi or
Pittoni.  It does not explain the tiorbino.


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[LUTE] Re: baroque mandolin picking

2009-05-06 Thread Eugene C. Braig IV

Carry on and happy listening.  Sounds like today's mandolin was a
compromise-strung Neapolitan instrument.  (Not many modern players like the
contrast in tone or tactile texture of brass on the inner two courses.)

Best,
Eugene


 -Original Message-
 From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
 Behalf Of David van Ooijen
 Sent: Wednesday, May 06, 2009 4:55 PM
 To: lutelist
 Subject: [LUTE] Re: baroque mandolin picking
 
 On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 10:38 PM, Eugene C. Braig IV brai...@osu.edu
 wrote:
 
  [Eugene C. Braig IV] There is no evidence that there WAS a four-course,
  'violin-tuned' mandolin type when Vivaldi was writing his mandolino or
 leuto
 .
  All evidence of performance on four-course, violin-tuned mandolins of
 which
  I'm aware--not only the wire-strung Neapolitan type, but also the wholly
  gut-strung mandolino Cremonese/Bresciano--was with plectra, either of
 quill
  (on Neapolitan types) or a shaped sliver of wood (on Cremonese types).
  I am
 .
  You are right regarding the we don't really know regarding fingers vs.
  quill on Vivaldi.  However, if you're looking to do HIP Vivaldi, it
 almost
  certainly should be on a five- or six-course, fourth-tuned instrument
  ([g]-b-e'-a'-d''-g'') and at least probably with the fingers.
 .
  plectrum on fourth-tuned instruments seems the status quo for recent
  somewhat-HIP performances of Vivaldi).
 
 
 I see. I got 4ths tuned mixed up with 5ths tuned, scatter brain, hence
 my 'mandolines-for-dummies' phrase: tuned as a violin.
 My only excuse is I'm writing these e-mails in the breaks of a
 home-recording session of some Bach ...
 
 Yes, today's mandolin had 4 courses, top three nylon, bottom one
 overspun, tuned in 5ths like a violin. and played with a quill (goose,
 I think, sounded very lovely and sweet).
 
 
  [Eugene C. Braig IV] Sounds yummy.  If the Castaldi mentioned is
  Bellerofonte, that's way before there is any evidence of violin-tuned
  mandolins.
 
 For sure, but this is for an all-arrangements programme anyway. Not me
 playing, by the way, a theorbo pupil brought her mandolin friend. The
 Castaldi is obviously for tiorbino (the mother of all toy theorbos)
 and theorbo. The arrangements were well done, but the full chords of
 the theorbo could not be matched by the mandolin. The faster chord
 sequences could be played non-broken by the theorbo, but not by the
 quill. A convincing compromise was found in the end.
 
 Thank you very much, I learned a lot, and know a little bit better
 what to expect, what to acccept as compromise, and what I can ask for
 if she comes again.
 
 David - time to listen to myself now ...
 
 --
 ***
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 davidvanooi...@gmail.com
 www.davidvanooijen.nl
 ***
 
 
 
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[LUTE] Re: Besard's Novus Partus

2014-05-22 Thread Ron Andrico

   Hello Thomas:
   I have spent a bit of time with the ensemble music in Besard's Novus
   Partus, and the upshot is that most of it needs serious work just to
   arrive at a passable and playable edition.  Besard, like so many others
   suffering from attention-deficit disorder, had a difficult time
   sticking with the plan when he invented his new tuning.  Then, once one
   sorts out the errors resulting from the tuning issues, the divisions
   wind up sounding less than interesting.  You might want to do as I have
   done - and others who have attempted to make sense of this music have
   done - and just use Besard's lute ensemble music as a general outline
   for creating better quality ensemble music.  Meanwhile, you might check
   out Julia Sutton's work on Besard's Novus Partus.
   The Music of J. B. Besard's Novus Partus, 1617 Journal of the
   American Musicological Society, Vol. 19, No. 2 (Summer, 1966),
   pp.182-204
   RA
Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 16:40:25 -0500
To: jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr; mar...@luteshop.co.uk;
   lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
From: twlute...@hotmail.com
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Besard's Novus Partus
   
Thanks kindly, everyone! It's what I suspected, but the comparative
rarity of an ordinary lute in reentrant tuning sent my looking for
some verification.
Cheers,
tom
 Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 20:17:25 +0200
 To: mar...@luteshop.co.uk; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 From: jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr
 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Besard's Novus Partus

  Nous appelons celui-ci Nouveau Luth non parce qu'il aurait une
forme (construction) nouvelle, mais seulement `a cause du nouvel
accord, qui n'est pas ingrat selon l'opinion de maintes (personnes).
C'est nous qui l'avons invente un jour. S'il differe peu en accord du
theorbe (comme on l'appelle), pourtant bien avant de connaitre cet
instrument j'accordais souvent le luth de cette maniere, mieux apte
pour la musique de n'importe quelle voix. Et ce seulement parce que
(par rapport `a l'accord ordinaire) la basse frappe l'oreille de
   fac,on
plus claire, sonore et nette. Pourtant pour cet accord il est
absolument necessaire de composer de morceaux speciaux.

 Voici la traduction du passage de Besard proposee par Dimitri
Goldobine...

 Re-best, ;-)

 Jean-Marie
 --

 I think Besard explains the Nova Testudo in his preface - can
someone
 help with the text? As I remember it is top two courses down an
octave,
 like the theorbo.
 
 M
 On 21/05/2014 18:10, Thomas Walker wrote:
  Hello all--
  Do any of you have a view(s) on what instrument Besard wanted
   for
his
  Nova Testudo? The other lutes seem pretty clearly to be 9 or 10
course
  instruments a 4th apart. The top lute, to me, looks like he's
assuming
  reentrant tuning. I'm tempted to think of Castaldi's tiorbino,
   but
  that seems less likely outside of Italy that early in the 17th
   c.
  Thoughts?
  Thanks kindly,
  Thomas Walker, Jr.
 
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[LUTE] Re: Theorbo in G? Plus some guidelines

2008-02-02 Thread howard posner

Martyn Hodgson wrote:

 In subsequent messages I gave more information (you must have  
 missed it): - how such small instruments were strung (just top  
 course an octave down or at a much higher nominal pitch eg D), -  
 early written evidence of theorbo sizes, - examples of solo music  
 for such instruments -

Again, there was no information; just your own conclusion that  
smaller theorbos were not tuned double reentrant.  You may be  
confusing these posts (I've just reread them) with your post about  
guitar stringing, which actually contained information.

 and gave Lynda Sayce's website and Bob Spencer's article as  
 providing more information. You may say that I only refer to these  
 articles because they support the position on theorbo sizes which I  
 take - which it is true they do -

But they don't.  Spencer doesn't correlate single-reentrant stringing  
with size.  Linda Sayce does, but  like you, states only her  
conclusions.

 As already said, I'm still waiting for David Tayler's and your own  
 evidence that small theorboes (say mid 70s to low 80s) in the A or  
 G tuning were generally strung as double reentrant.  Regarding  
 evidence to support the case that such stringing only generally  
 applies to larger instruments (say mid 80s to high 90s), I had  
 hoped the sources I gave were sufficiently well known to avoid me  
 having to do more than refer to them, but obviously not.

It's not that the sources aren't well known.  It's that your  
conclusion doesn't follow from your premises.  It boils down to big  
theorbos were strung double reentrant because they had to be; smaller  
theorbos didn't have to be, therefore they never were.  This makes  
sense only if you assume that necessity was the only reason for  
double reentrant, an assumption which is hardly justifiable (If it's  
correct, you've proved that the tiorbino never existed). Players  
obviously liked its possibilities and gleefully exploited it in solo  
music.

 The ones that come to mind include:

 Praetorius (1620): Lang Romanische Theorbo:Chitarron). Scaled  
 engraving showing an instrument with six fingered and 8 long bass  
 courses, fingered string length 90/91cm. Tuning given as the  
 theorbo G tuning (double reentrant).

 Talbot MS (c 1695):  English Theorboe A tuning (double reentrant),  
 detailed measurement and tunings given. Fingered string length  
 88/89cm (you tell us that you have other information on the string  
 length of this instrument - I'd be grateful for it)

The Talbot MS doesn't actually give the total length, does it?
David van Edwards calculated the Talbot English Theorbo at 77 cm.   
See his explanation at
http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/47.htm
He made a Talbot theorbo for Linda Sayce.  I gather from her web  
site that its fingerboard strings are 80cm (thus scaled up or down  
from the original, depending on your point of view) and she strings  
it single reentrant in G.

  Talbot MS: Lesser French theorbo in D (double reentrant) string  
 length 76cm.

If we have one 76cm French theorbo in double reentrant D and one 77cm  
English Theorbo in double reentrant A, we scarcely have a small- 
theorbo trend, let alone overwhelming evidence.

  'POWER'
 I'm really not sure if I quite follow your argument here,

Simply that it was not universally the only consideration in building  
or stringing a theorbo.  This is not to say that it wasn't  
important.  As I said, players and builders must have had a wide  
range of desires and motivations.  And not everyone had to be heard  
in choruses in the Paris opera or with trombones in San Rocco in Venice.

 there is no evidence to support A or G double rentrant theorbos  
 between the mid 70s and low 80s.

And no evidence against it.  There may be all sorts of practical or  
artistic reasons for drawing conclusions about smaller theorbos, but  
the appeal to history comes up empty.

This whole discussion has glossed the complicating question of pitch.

I have made the point before that we would expect an instrument  
designed to be played at AF6 to have strings about 83% the length  
of an instrument designed to be played at A=390.  If so, all other  
things being equal, you'd expect that a 76cm instrument designed for  
AF5 to be tuned the same way as a 92cm instrument designed for  
A=390.  Whether this was historically the case is a matter of  
speculation.


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[LUTE] Re: Pittoni's theorbo?

2008-02-08 Thread Martyn Hodgson

Dear Jean-Marie,
   
  There's quite a history to this discussion, both recently and some months ago 
and you may care to look in the archives for the long and, I'm afraid, rather 
tedious and repetitive thread.
   
  Basically the historical case (evidence for your 'burden of proof') for 
saying that small theorbos were not generally tuned double reentrant is that 
the few early writers who mention such stringing details at all (principally 
Piccinini, Mace), say that on the theorbo the string length and pitch is such 
that the top course is obliged to be tuned down an octave if it is not to break 
(ie what we now call single reentrant) and further say that if the instrument 
is large one is even obliged to tune the second an octave down.  In short, if 
you can you should just detune the first course and only detune the next if the 
second string is likely to break. 
   
  For some reason this tuning seems unattractive to many modern players: 
perhaps it's because some like to think they are playing a large theorbo of the 
type played by early professional continuo musicians but are put off by the 
actual size.  I have no argument with this position whatsoever and if the case 
is made for such stringing is on the basis on modern convenience (and using 
modern overwound strings) rather than historical usage then that's fine.  The 
problem arises when it's suggested that double reentrant tuning was normally 
used on small theorbos earlier: I ask for any evidence but none is ever 
forthcoming! Perhaps this unwillingness to confront the evidence is because 
most amateur theorbo players are principally lutenists and don't wish to stray 
too far from the sort of size to which they've become accustomed. 
   
  regards
   
  Martyn
   
  PS If it's of any succour, it may be that some early amateurs might possibly 
have played  small theorbos in A or G as double reentrant  (altho no evidence 
has been presented) but I presume we are speaking about 'best practice' here.
  

Jean-Marie Poirier [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  (Sorry David for sending this to your private mailbox. I don't master yet all 
the subtleties of replying to the list when I get messages from such or such 
person )

Thanks David. That's a clear statement, full of good sense and and I totally 
concur. My not so small theorbo, which I use for continuo, is 80 cm on the 
fingerboard and I have not particularly small hands, being more than 6 ft tall, 
but I must confess I have already quite a handful of it... My smaller 
theorbo, which I occasionally use for continuo too :) is 73 cm, and that would 
almost make a tiorbino of it if I understand well... ;-) !

Best,

Jean-Marie

Martyn wrote:


If you have anything like the Praetorius, Mace, Picinni, Talbot evidence on 
large theorbos but clearly relating to smalI instruments in this tuning, I'd 
like to see it please.


So far we have seen evidence of reentrant tuning for large theorbos, thank 
you for the references. And we have solo music requiring reentrant tuning 
and strongly suggesting a-tuning (Kapsberger). However, we have not seen 
evidence stating small theorbos could not be tuned reentrant. Your opinion 
on the matter is clear, but your arguments are not. I hate to be taking 
sides in an argument that could, and should, bring us all to a better 
understanding of the historical record and, especially interesting for me, 
its consequences for our own playing today, but as it stands now I think the 
burden of proof is on your side: what are the arguments to deny the 
possibility of tuning a small theorbo reentrant in a? Saying, as I 
understand you to do, that the fact that large theorbos were tuned reentrant 
is proof small theorbos were not tuned reentrant, does not make sense. I 
agree with you that bigger is better for much of theorbo continuo practice. 
I agree with you that many of us, myself included, have a 'toy' theorbos 
(76cm here!) not ideally suited for some of the continuo repertoire 
(Montevredi las weekend!) we play on it nonetheless. I agree with you that 
covering up the defects of a small theorbo by using overspun basses on 6 
(and lower if present at the fingerboard) is a modern solution. But I see no 
evidence denying the historical possibility of tuning a small theorbo 
reentrant in a. On the contrary, some would argue that the solo music (in a) 
would require a small theorbo as it would require rather very large hands to 
be played on one of the very large continuo theorbos.

respectfully

David



David van Ooijen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.davidvanooijen.nl
 




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[LUTE] Re: Choosing Strings

2008-05-25 Thread Martyn Hodgson


Very good mt dear Howard - but really not at all.  I very much welcomed your 
informed contributions as testing the envelope of knowledge by citing early 
sources and organological data rather than assertions based simply on personal 
preference.  Sorry if you thought it at all wrathful!

However, my complaint about Barber goes back many years (when I had the 
temerity to first question his identification of the 'Chambure vihuela' as a 
typical instrument for the early 16thC repertoire and his continuing failure to 
mention organolgical work undertaken by many others), and more recently (pasted 
below) when I pointed out that, despite his most recent criticism (and personal 
abuse)of me for advocating large theorbos, in fact his own website supported my 
position!

Martyn


 
Thursday, 21 February, 2008 4:59 PM
From: Martyn Hodgson [EMAIL PROTECTED]View contact details To: [EMAIL 
PROTECTED], Lute Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 
 Dear Stephen Barber, It has just been brought to my attention that your 
website contains a scurrilous personal attack on me. Since the attack is based 
on a blatant misrepresentation of observations I first made on an internet 
site, it is also appropriate to copy my response there. I'm told that you have 
a history of making such scurrilous and often inaccurate allegations (including 
I'm also informed of accusations of theft by other makers) and, indeed, your 
current website has more, including: your English theorbo details being  
'copied by another luthier'; a 'mutually-supportive rumour-mill' by those 
failing to agree with you about Edlinger,etc.  Some may, of course, choose to 
ignore your comments as appearing to be deluded irrational rantings but others 
believe such public misrepresentations should always be firmly addressed. 
In short, you state that my description (and those of my 'cronies' as you put 
it) of  small theorboes as 'toys' is 'puerile, inaccurate and ill-informed'; 
and, indeed, it might well be if that is only what I wrote.  In fact, if you 
read what was actually written in the thread, you'll see that my comment about 
'toys' only applied to small instruments (say, fingered string length in the 
high 70s) being strung as double reentrant in the A or G tuning and I 
specifically excluded single reentrant small theorboes or double reentrant 
instruments at a significantly higher nominal pitch (eg the lesser French 
Theorbo in D; or the tiorbino) from my comment.  It is especially surprising 
that you oppose my position since all the double reentrant theorboes in A and G 
listed on your own website (other than your 'own design') are directly in line 
with it!  ie in mm: 930, 895, 860, 860, 890, 984, 900, 840, 865. Further, as 
you will also know from reading the thread, the
 debate came about because of a particular response to a query about the size 
of double reentrant theorbos in A or G; this response stated that  'anything 
over 82 (cm) is a speciality instrument only for people with huge hands or for 
those who only ever play in high positions'.  It is again surprising, my dear 
Stephen, that you also now seem to support this view,  since all the theorbos 
in A or G (other than your 'own design') which you offer are for larger 
instruments than 82cm, and many much larger! 
Perhaps, in my own case, your antipathy and clumsy personal attacks may stem 
from my temerity some years ago in first privately questioning some of your 
speculations.  However, quite why you feel impelled to personally attack, 
misrepresent and generally accuse so many others is a more worrying 
characteristic.
Martyn Hodgson
PS  You obviously missed my recent recital to the Lute Society and so you also 
missed the opportunity to see my gallichon which many admired.  It is based on 
the 1773 Stautinger and it was in considering the identity of this instrument 
which first led me to identify this entire family of instruments (FoMRHI 
Quarterly 1979).  I should be grateful if you would kindly cite my paper on 
your website in the section on mandoras/gallichons.  MH.  



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--- On Sun, 25/5/08, howard posner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 From: howard posner [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Choosing Strings
 To: LUTELIST List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Date: Sunday, 25 May, 2008, 6:13 AM
 On May 24, 2008, at 10:26 AM, Gernot Hilger wrote:
 
  Don't say that too loudly. You'll fall prey to
 Stephen Barber's  
  wrath. Ask Martyn!
 
 I'm far more likely to fall prey to Martyn's wrath.
 
 
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[LUTE] Non-Toy Theorbo for rent

2009-02-19 Thread Stewart McCoy

   Dear Howard,


   Thank you for your reply to my email about theorboes. You ask many
   questions, and I shall do my best to answer some of them.


   You wrote, Nobody suggested anything of the sort, i.e. expecting a
   source to tell us, with specific wording, things we need to know about
   theorboes for a whole range of circumstances.


   Well, in your message of 17th February, you wrote:


   Does some historical source say both highest pitch possible and
   thinnest useable string in discussing theorbos?  And if so, is there
   any reason to believe that every theorbist subscribed to it?


   That sounds like quite a bit of the sort to me. You were asking Martyn
   Hodgson to produce a source with specific wording, for circumstances
   which must apply to every theorbo player. Unfortunately the implication
   is, that if he fails to do so, his arguments are specious, which is a
   bit unfair.


   You ask, Who was THEY?. Well, as far as my message is concerned, THEY
   was Thomas Mace and the musicians he was writing about.


   You also ask, When was THEN? Mace's book was published in 1676, so
   THEN, for me, would be Mace's lifetime up to 1676. You can't really
   hold him to account for not mentioning a theorbo man playing in one of
   Handel's operas in 1724. Mace does have a good word to say about
   Monteverdi though.


   Your next question was, What is the thinnest useable string?


   To find your thinnest useable string, simply measure the thickness of
   all the strings you possess, and pick out the thinnest one. If you find
   you can use it on the instrument of your choice, you will have found
   the thinnest useable string. If it breaks, it won't be much use any
   more, except possibly for smaller instruments or for frets.


   You seem disappointed that Mace does not mention Pittoni and Castaldi,
   that he doesn't discuss the tiorbino, that he doesn't give exact
   measurements of the size of instruments and their strings, and doesn't
   talk about pitch. The implication is that the information to be gleaned
   from Musick's Monument, is worthless, because Mace doesn't mention all
   these things. I think we would do better to consider what Mace actually
   wrote, not what we think he should have written. In fact he does
   mention pitch, but there is as much chance of him giving Hertz numbers,
   as there is of him knowing about theorbo players alive in 1724. He
   writes about the Pitch of Consort, and says that, if you want to play
   with other musicians, you have to tune up to their pitch; if that means
   having to re-tune the 1st string or two down an octave, so be it. It is
   the pitch of the people you want to play with, which determines the
   tuning of your theorbo.


   Mace talks about instruments of different sizes, and says that the size
   of your instrument will determine whether or not you have to tune the
   first string, or the first two strings, down an octave. He doesn't need
   to give exact measurements, because he expects players to use their
   common sense, and avoid broken strings.


   So far I have dwelt on the less contentious side of the question: large
   instruments require a re-entrant tuning, because otherwise there is a
   risk that their strings will break. I hope we are agreed on that. The
   more controversial aspect, is whether or not it is appropriate to
   string smaller instruments with a re-entrant tuning, when their size
   would allow them to have just one course (instead of two) down an
   octave, or even all courses at pitch as with an archlute (instead of
   one course down an octave).


   To this I would say that there is no law or commandment which tells us
   how we should tune our instruments. We can do what we like. For Mace to
   say that our tuning is determined by whether or not we are playing with
   others at Pitch of Consort, suggests that some players may have had
   all their strings at the higher octave (or just the 1st course down an
   octave), but had to change the tuning to match the change in
   circumstances, i.e. playing with others at a higher pitch. In other
   words, he is saying that more than one tuning may have been possible
   for an instrument, depending on pitch.


   One reason why Mace seems less than enthusiastic about re-entrant
   tunings, may be seen in his phrase, the Life and Spruceness of such
   Ayrey Lessons, is quite lost. In other words, have a re-entrant tuning
   if you must, but if you do, you will lose something valuable in the
   music. The implication is, that if your instrument is small enough to
   allow it, it would be better to keep as many strings tuned at the
   higher octave as possible.


   My previous message was simply to say that the evidence from Thomas
   Mace concurs with what Martyn Hodgson had written on 17th^h February,
   to wit:


   Of course pitch is relevant to instrument size: as pointed out

   earlier, it's precisely why the top one, or two, courses

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