[LUTE] Playing in time (olim Polish, anyone?)
with a metronome what the difference in speed is between the galliards. With the faster ones, it was possible to come up with an approximate figure, but it was impossible to measure Melancholy Galliard, because the piece kept changing speed. The word Melancholy might well suggest slowness, but the word galliard should suggest a dance rhythm, however slow that may be. To quote Donington (p. 383): A slow movement may gain more poignancy from being kept well in motion than from being dragged under the illusion of making the most of it. Best wishes, Stewart McCoy. - Original Message - From: Jarosław Lipski [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'Lute' lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 5:47 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Playing in time (olim Polish, anyone?) Actually Bream is not old fashioned. This is rather modern attitude - a need for steady rhythm and sharp accents. In baroque period breaking chords was absolutely common practice and thought of as embellishment. G.Frescobaldi, Toccate 1615 : The openings of the toccatas are to be taken adagio and arpeggiando; it is the same with suspensions or discords, even in the middle of the work, one breaks them together, so as not to leave the instrument empty; which breaking is to be performed at the discretion of the performer As far as rhythm is concerned flexibility was the rule: 1/Th. Mace Musick's Monument Many Drudge, and take much Pains to Play their Lessons very Perfectly, which when they can do, you will perceive Little Life, or Spirit in them. They do not labour to find out the Humour, Life, or Spirit of their lessons. 2/Jean Rousseau, Traite de la Viole 1687 There are people who imagine that imparting the movement is to follow and keep time; but these are very different matters. 3/Joachim Quantz, Essay 1752 The performance should be easy and flexible. However difficult the passage, it must be played without stiffness or constraint. Obviously it involves the problem of borrowing or steeling time. However whatever we do, the question is not- should we do it- but rather -is it tasteful. And a Good taste is really precious for me. Jaroslaw To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Playing in time (olim Polish, anyone?)
Dear Andrew, My view is that an occasional spread chord is a useful device, and should certainly be in one's expressive armoury. However, spreading chords feels good to a player, and there is a danger that it is overdone. It is actually easier to play a spread chord than to play all the notes together, which is ultimately, I think, why people do it so much. I find myself starting to spread chords when I am unsure of the music, or a bit nervous, and I realise that I am feeling my way. In the past we know that notes were not always played together: there are separe marks in French baroque music, and notes with more than 4 notes have to be spread in some way. Composers like Dowland often finish a piece with a 6-note chord of G major, which has to be spread. This makes the last chord special, and it is too late in the piece to cause any damage to the rhythm. Perhaps one should save up spread chords for places like that, where the composer clearly wants a spread chord. The blind lutenist, Matthew Wadsworth, once took part in one of Julian Bream's master classes for the Lute Society. Bream was trying to get him to stop rolling so many chords. At one point Bream stopped him, and told him not to roll a particular chord. But Mr Bream, said Wadsworth, the chord has six notes. Bream thought for a moment, smiled, and then said, Alright, we'll let you have that one. The advantage of a spread chord is that it gives fullness of sound, and thus helps to distinguish it from other chords - to make it special. One disadvantage is that it obscures the beat. This is normally not desirable, but it can be extremely useful when playing with a beginner, who is struggling to keep up or stay in time. By rolling chords, it sounds as if you're playing well together, even though the poor chap's rhythm is all over the place. Another disadvantage is that a spread chord tends to obscure polyphonic lines, emphasising the vertical rather than the horizontal. When playing lute duets and trios with competent players, one should make an effort to avoid spreading chords, or the overall sound will be a mess. When playing alone, I think they should only be used very sparingly, like vibrato. Best wishes, Stewart. - Original Message - From: Andrew Gibbs To: Stewart McCoy Cc: Lute Net Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 9:39 AM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Playing in time (olim Polish, anyone?) I like these quotes. ...but do you think the occasional (and tasteful) spreading of chords is a bad or non-HIP thing? Andrew On 30 Jan 2008, at 17:17, Stewart McCoy wrote: In the last few years, Julian Bream has given master classes at Lute Society meetings in London. He stressed two things: the need to play notes together, (i.e. not to roll and spread chords); and to play in time. He said, I may be old-fashioned, but I like music to be played in time. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Playing in time (olim Polish, anyone?)
- Original Message - From: Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'Stewart McCoy' [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'Lute Net' lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 12:27 PM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Playing in time (olim Polish, anyone?) From: Rob [EMAIL PROTECTED] I'm only pulling your leg, Stewart, obviously, but I do have a serious point to make regarding time keeping and respecting composers' wishes. Well, in that case we should level the same charges against Hoppy Smith, who both keeps country time and alters the performing material. RT Yes, we should. SAM To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Playing in time (olim Polish, anyone?)
Dear Rob, Thanks for directing us towards this Polish website. I don't understand Polish, but I listened to the background music - a piece by Dlugoraj. It's a lovely piece of music, exciting, with lots of drive, yet on this website it is played arhythmically - totally out of time. Why do so many lutenists play like that? Playing out of time is not necessary, not expressive, not skillful, and I find it thoroughly irritating. Do they ever consider what the rhythm signs above the tablature staves mean? What evidence is there that lutenists in the past ignored rhythm signs, and interpreted music in this dreamy, self-satisfying way? In attempting to find evidence, I came across the following at the end of Mary Burwell's Lute Tutor: In Conclusion the greatest Errour that is in playing upon the Lute is to play too fast, and not to keepe the tyme, and not to use the right fingers, without that play never soe well you are but a Bungler and fitt onely to amaze the ignorant Sorte of people and make a foole of yourselfe. Not wishing to rely on one source, I turned to Thomas Mace's _Musick's Monument_ (London, 1676). On page 124 he writes: ... you cannot fail to know my Mistress's Humour, provided you keep True Time, which you must be extreamly careful to do, in All Lessons: For Time is the One half of Musick. This comes where he is describing how to play a piece called my Mistress's Humour, which, you might think, he would want to be played with the utmost expression. He wants louds and softs, he wants ornaments, and he wants his piece to be played in time. He even says that you should play in time not just in this piece, but in all pieces (lessons). In the last few years, Julian Bream has given master classes at Lute Society meetings in London. He stressed two things: the need to play notes together, (i.e. not to roll and spread chords); and to play in time. He said, I may be old-fashioned, but I like music to be played in time. There are very many eminent players today, much admired, playing in concerts, on CDs, and on YouTube, who consistently play out of time. May they meet the ghost of Lully banging his stick. Stewart McCoy. - Original Message - From: Rob [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'LuteNet list' lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 11:02 AM Subject: [LUTE] Polish, anyone? Nice picture of a 'mandora' on this site: http://www.innow.com.pl/muzykadawna/contrabellum.htm What's it all about? Rob To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
