[LUTE] Re: The illusory truth effect [was: Re: Francesco//Siena 62 - "5th Mode" - Raga Kamod
I, also, find these emails on a supposed connexion between Renaissance lute music and Indian music to be tedious and exceedingly uninteresting. Edward C. Yong τούτο ηλεκτρονικόν ταχυδρομείον εκ είΦωνου εμεύ επέμφθη. Hæ litteræ electronicæ ab iPhono missæ sunt. 此電子郵件發送于自吾iPhone。 This e-mail was sent from my iPhone. > On 11 Aug 2018, at 12:38 AM, Antonio Corona wrote: > > Dear Tristan > You ask us to speak up, so I shall: > In my opinion all you propose is wishfull listening, and nothing else. > Therefore I cannot support your ideas. > Sorry, but you asked, and I'm not afraid to answer. From my end this is > the end of discussion and I shall not make any further comments or > reply (this is geting boresome). > Antonio > __ > > From: Tristan von Neumann > To: lutelist Net > Sent: Friday, 10 August 2018, 9:08 > Subject: [LUTE] Re: The illusory truth effect [was: Re: > Francesco//Siena 62 - "5th Mode" - Raga Kamod > Why are the only people discussing do not use any real arguments, > instead those from the eristics bin? > So, officially I ask the list: > Does anyone of you support anything I say? > There are statistics in soundcloud, so I know not just two people are > playing the tracks. > Don't be afraid to speak up. > It is for those people I post this, everyone else who disagrees please > ignore me or at least bring up some other argument than the logically > flawed "there is no pink unicorn because no one has ever shown one", or > worse: "If it were true, why has no one written about it already?", or > purely formal complaints about a post in a mailing list (!). This is > not > a scientific magazine. > Am 10.08.2018 um 15:24 schrieb Martyn Hodgson: >> Many months ago I decided to flag Tristan von Neumann's emails as >> spam. He appeared impervious to reasoned thought and only wished > to >> put across a cranky assertion based on very little actual hard > evidence >> rather than his coincidental speculation. I even wondered whether > the >> whole thing was so far-fetched as to be a spoof.. >> So I've only now caught up with the latest developments through > the >> thoughtful considered responses to the Lute List of people like > you and >> Jurgen Frenz. I too see no reason to change my final comment to >> Neumann (pasted below) made in April last and the spam filter will >> continue. >> Martyn Hodgson >> > --- >> - >> >> >> >> >> >> 2 Apr at 12:10 PM >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> To T[1]ristan von Neumann [2]lutelist Net >> Thank you for this. As I understand it your basic thesis is that, >> because there >> appears to be some similarities, various European early musical > forms >> must >> have been directly copied at the time (and appropriated by > Monteverdi >> and >> others) from existing music found on the subcontinent. >> It will certainly be instructive to read your promised full and >> properly developed >> paper on this matter. In which refereed scholarly journal are you >> seeking to have >> it published? - and when will it appear? >> Incidentally, I'm sure you will be aware of a basic rule of formal >> logic employed >> in any recognised objective analysis: - correlation does not > imply >> causation. A >> mistaken belief that correlation signifies causation is, as you > will >> also be aware, >> a questionable cause logical fallacy. No doubt you will, > therefore, >> rigorously >> address this particularly relevant matter in your forthcoming > paper. >> Martyn Hodgson >> > __ >> >> From: Ido Shdaimah <[1]ishdai...@gmail.com> >> To: lutelist Net <[2]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> >> Sent: Friday, 10 August 2018, 12:46 >> Subject: [LUTE] Re: The illusory truth effect [was: Re: >> Francesco//Siena 62 - "5th Mode" - Raga Kamod >> Dear Tristan, >> The Harmonium isn't traditionally used Indian Classical music: >> In Indian music, only the Swaras (notes) Pa and Sa are set on > exact >> points. The other Sawaras vary within ranges called > Swarakshetras. >> The >> maximal and minimal points are called Shrutis, and the
[LUTE] Re: The illusory truth effect [was: Re: Francesco//Siena 62 - "5th Mode" - Raga Kamod
Dear Tristan You ask us to speak up, so I shall: In my opinion all you propose is wishfull listening, and nothing else. Therefore I cannot support your ideas. Sorry, but you asked, and I'm not afraid to answer. From my end this is the end of discussion and I shall not make any further comments or reply (this is geting boresome). Antonio __ From: Tristan von Neumann To: lutelist Net Sent: Friday, 10 August 2018, 9:08 Subject: [LUTE] Re: The illusory truth effect [was: Re: Francesco//Siena 62 - "5th Mode" - Raga Kamod Why are the only people discussing do not use any real arguments, instead those from the eristics bin? So, officially I ask the list: Does anyone of you support anything I say? There are statistics in soundcloud, so I know not just two people are playing the tracks. Don't be afraid to speak up. It is for those people I post this, everyone else who disagrees please ignore me or at least bring up some other argument than the logically flawed "there is no pink unicorn because no one has ever shown one", or worse: "If it were true, why has no one written about it already?", or purely formal complaints about a post in a mailing list (!). This is not a scientific magazine. Am 10.08.2018 um 15:24 schrieb Martyn Hodgson: >Many months ago I decided to flag Tristan von Neumann's emails as >spam. He appeared impervious to reasoned thought and only wished to >put across a cranky assertion based on very little actual hard evidence >rather than his coincidental speculation. I even wondered whether the >whole thing was so far-fetched as to be a spoof.. >So I've only now caught up with the latest developments through the >thoughtful considered responses to the Lute List of people like you and >Jurgen Frenz. I too see no reason to change my final comment to >Neumann (pasted below) made in April last and the spam filter will >continue. >Martyn Hodgson > --- >- > > > > > > 2 Apr at 12:10 PM > > > > > > > >To T[1]ristan von Neumann [2]lutelist Net >Thank you for this. As I understand it your basic thesis is that, >because there >appears to be some similarities, various European early musical forms >must >have been directly copied at the time (and appropriated by Monteverdi >and >others) from existing music found on the subcontinent. >It will certainly be instructive to read your promised full and >properly developed >paper on this matter. In which refereed scholarly journal are you >seeking to have >it published? - and when will it appear? >Incidentally, I'm sure you will be aware of a basic rule of formal >logic employed >in any recognised objective analysis: - correlation does not imply >causation. A >mistaken belief that correlation signifies causation is, as you will >also be aware, >a questionable cause logical fallacy. No doubt you will, therefore, >rigorously >address this particularly relevant matter in your forthcoming paper. >Martyn Hodgson > ______ > >From: Ido Shdaimah <[1]ishdai...@gmail.com> >To: lutelist Net <[2]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> >Sent: Friday, 10 August 2018, 12:46 >Subject: [LUTE] Re: The illusory truth effect [was: Re: >Francesco//Siena 62 - "5th Mode" - Raga Kamod > Dear Tristan, > The Harmonium isn't traditionally used Indian Classical music: > In Indian music, only the Swaras (notes) Pa and Sa are set on exact > points. The other Sawaras vary within ranges called Swarakshetras. >The > maximal and minimal points are called Shrutis, and there are 22 of > them. When using different Ragas, different Shrutis are used for each > Swara. The Harmonium is equal-tempered, and as so, cannot operate >with > in that natural environment of Indian Classical music. > Also, historically, the Harmonium became popular in India during the > mid-late 19 century, due to portability and ease of play. > I think one of the biggest problems with your theory is that if Raags > and CI music theory was so well known in the west, then we would > pro
[LUTE] Re: The illusory truth effect [was: Re: Francesco//Siena 62 - "5th Mode" - Raga Kamod
Harmonium lends itself to Ukrainian music amazingly well! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCtpFZ4LuN4 RT On 8/10/2018 7:41 AM, Ido Shdaimah wrote: Dear Tristan, The Harmonium isn't traditionally used Indian Classical music: In Indian music, only the Swaras (notes) Pa and Sa are set on exact points. The other Sawaras vary within ranges called Swarakshetras. The maximal and minimal points are called Shrutis, and there are 22 of them. When using different Ragas, different Shrutis are used for each Swara. The Harmonium is equal-tempered, and as so, cannot operate with in that natural environment of Indian Classical music. Also, historically, the Harmonium became popular in India during the mid-late 19 century, due to portability and ease of play. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: The illusory truth effect [was: Re: Francesco//Siena 62 - "5th Mode" - Raga Kamod
I don't about others, but it seems an awfully vegetarian curry to me. RT On 8/10/2018 10:02 AM, Tristan von Neumann wrote: So, officially I ask the list: Does anyone of you support anything I say? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: The illusory truth effect [was: Re: Francesco//Siena 62 - "5th Mode" - Raga Kamod
Thanks Dan for the input. What do I want? Share this with musicians for improved music making experiences. I want to bring attention to the idea, not to myself. As I said many times - if someone wants to dig with me, go ahead and find interesting stuff and tell us. I'm addressing the lute list, since this is about Early Music and lute music. Am 10.08.2018 um 16:53 schrieb Dan Winheld: Alright, I give up. Tristan- what exactly do you want? Attention? You got that. Universal love & agreement? Wrong planet, (or universe). Honorary Doctorate of the Raga-Mezzo Mashup phenomenon? Don't apply to a lute list! It's been an interesting (at times), but finally a tiresome ride you've taken us on. Discussion went way, way beyond my own simple understanding- not just of Indian music theory, but European as well. (I am a mere "pulsatore" of lute-shaped objects). But, I have done 12-bar blues/Passamezzo Antico mashups on my own. Generally much later in the evening, with imbibable assists from single malt Scottish mash-ups. -And NONE of the lute-lists damn business! Dan W. On 8/10/2018 7:02 AM, Tristan von Neumann wrote: Why are the only people discussing do not use any real arguments, instead those from the eristics bin? So, officially I ask the list: Does anyone of you support anything I say? There are statistics in soundcloud, so I know not just two people are playing the tracks. Don't be afraid to speak up. It is for those people I post this, everyone else who disagrees please ignore me or at least bring up some other argument than the logically flawed "there is no pink unicorn because no one has ever shown one", or worse: "If it were true, why has no one written about it already?", or purely formal complaints about a post in a mailing list (!). This is not a scientific magazine. Am 10.08.2018 um 15:24 schrieb Martyn Hodgson: Many months ago I decided to flag Tristan von Neumann's emails as spam. He appeared impervious to reasoned thought and only wished to put across a cranky assertion based on very little actual hard evidence rather than his coincidental speculation. I even wondered whether the whole thing was so far-fetched as to be a spoof.. So I've only now caught up with the latest developments through the thoughtful considered responses to the Lute List of people like you and Jurgen Frenz. I too see no reason to change my final comment to Neumann (pasted below) made in April last and the spam filter will continue. Martyn Hodgson --- - 2 Apr at 12:10 PM To T[1]ristan von Neumann [2]lutelist Net Thank you for this. As I understand it your basic thesis is that, because there appears to be some similarities, various European early musical forms must have been directly copied at the time (and appropriated by Monteverdi and others) from existing music found on the subcontinent. It will certainly be instructive to read your promised full and properly developed paper on this matter. In which refereed scholarly journal are you seeking to have it published? - and when will it appear? Incidentally, I'm sure you will be aware of a basic rule of formal logic employed in any recognised objective analysis: - correlation does not imply causation. A mistaken belief that correlation signifies causation is, as you will also be aware, a questionable cause logical fallacy. No doubt you will, therefore, rigorously address this particularly relevant matter in your forthcoming paper. Martyn Hodgson __ From: Ido Shdaimah To: lutelist Net Sent: Friday, 10 August 2018, 12:46 Subject: [LUTE] Re: The illusory truth effect [was: Re: Francesco//Siena 62 - "5th Mode" - Raga Kamod Dear Tristan, The Harmonium isn't traditionally used Indian Classical music: In Indian music, only the Swaras (notes) Pa and Sa are set on exact points. The other Sawaras vary within ranges called Swarakshetras. The maximal and minimal points are called Shrutis, and there are 22 of them. When using different Ragas, different Shrutis are used for each Swara. The Harmonium is equal-tempered, and as so, cannot operate with in that natural environment of Indian Classical music. Also, historically, the Harmonium became popular in India during the mid-late 19 century, due to portability and ease of play. I think one of the biggest problems with your theory is that if Raags and CI music theory was so well known in the west, then we would probably have ample evidence of that use, like mentions in theory treatises. You also need to consider
[LUTE] Re: The illusory truth effect [was: Re: Francesco//Siena 62 - "5th Mode" - Raga Kamod
Alright, I give up. Tristan- what exactly do you want? Attention? You got that. Universal love & agreement? Wrong planet, (or universe). Honorary Doctorate of the Raga-Mezzo Mashup phenomenon? Don't apply to a lute list! It's been an interesting (at times), but finally a tiresome ride you've taken us on. Discussion went way, way beyond my own simple understanding- not just of Indian music theory, but European as well. (I am a mere "pulsatore" of lute-shaped objects). But, I have done 12-bar blues/Passamezzo Antico mashups on my own. Generally much later in the evening, with imbibable assists from single malt Scottish mash-ups. -And NONE of the lute-lists damn business! Dan W. On 8/10/2018 7:02 AM, Tristan von Neumann wrote: Why are the only people discussing do not use any real arguments, instead those from the eristics bin? So, officially I ask the list: Does anyone of you support anything I say? There are statistics in soundcloud, so I know not just two people are playing the tracks. Don't be afraid to speak up. It is for those people I post this, everyone else who disagrees please ignore me or at least bring up some other argument than the logically flawed "there is no pink unicorn because no one has ever shown one", or worse: "If it were true, why has no one written about it already?", or purely formal complaints about a post in a mailing list (!). This is not a scientific magazine. Am 10.08.2018 um 15:24 schrieb Martyn Hodgson: Many months ago I decided to flag Tristan von Neumann's emails as spam. He appeared impervious to reasoned thought and only wished to put across a cranky assertion based on very little actual hard evidence rather than his coincidental speculation. I even wondered whether the whole thing was so far-fetched as to be a spoof.. So I've only now caught up with the latest developments through the thoughtful considered responses to the Lute List of people like you and Jurgen Frenz. I too see no reason to change my final comment to Neumann (pasted below) made in April last and the spam filter will continue. Martyn Hodgson --- - 2 Apr at 12:10 PM To T[1]ristan von Neumann [2]lutelist Net Thank you for this. As I understand it your basic thesis is that, because there appears to be some similarities, various European early musical forms must have been directly copied at the time (and appropriated by Monteverdi and others) from existing music found on the subcontinent. It will certainly be instructive to read your promised full and properly developed paper on this matter. In which refereed scholarly journal are you seeking to have it published? - and when will it appear? Incidentally, I'm sure you will be aware of a basic rule of formal logic employed in any recognised objective analysis: - correlation does not imply causation. A mistaken belief that correlation signifies causation is, as you will also be aware, a questionable cause logical fallacy. No doubt you will, therefore, rigorously address this particularly relevant matter in your forthcoming paper. Martyn Hodgson __ From: Ido Shdaimah To: lutelist Net Sent: Friday, 10 August 2018, 12:46 Subject: [LUTE] Re: The illusory truth effect [was: Re: Francesco//Siena 62 - "5th Mode" - Raga Kamod Dear Tristan, The Harmonium isn't traditionally used Indian Classical music: In Indian music, only the Swaras (notes) Pa and Sa are set on exact points. The other Sawaras vary within ranges called Swarakshetras. The maximal and minimal points are called Shrutis, and there are 22 of them. When using different Ragas, different Shrutis are used for each Swara. The Harmonium is equal-tempered, and as so, cannot operate with in that natural environment of Indian Classical music. Also, historically, the Harmonium became popular in India during the mid-late 19 century, due to portability and ease of play. I think one of the biggest problems with your theory is that if Raags and CI music theory was so well known in the west, then we would probably have ample evidence of that use, like mentions in theory treatises. You also need to consider another, more practical issue: such a deep musical exchange you suggest can only happen if there is EXTENSIVE direct contact between the two cultures. You aren't suggesting here that one composer used IC theory in his composition, but ALL of them. This would mean every single composer would have had to have deep knowledge of IC music, and that would require a
[LUTE] Re: The illusory truth effect [was: Re: Francesco//Siena 62 - "5th Mode" - Raga Kamod
Why are the only people discussing do not use any real arguments,
instead those from the eristics bin?
So, officially I ask the list:
Does anyone of you support anything I say?
There are statistics in soundcloud, so I know not just two people are
playing the tracks.
Don't be afraid to speak up.
It is for those people I post this, everyone else who disagrees please
ignore me or at least bring up some other argument than the logically
flawed "there is no pink unicorn because no one has ever shown one", or
worse: "If it were true, why has no one written about it already?", or
purely formal complaints about a post in a mailing list (!). This is not
a scientific magazine.
Am 10.08.2018 um 15:24 schrieb Martyn Hodgson:
Many months ago I decided to flag Tristan von Neumann's emails as
spam. He appeared impervious to reasoned thought and only wished to
put across a cranky assertion based on very little actual hard evidence
rather than his coincidental speculation. I even wondered whether the
whole thing was so far-fetched as to be a spoof..
So I've only now caught up with the latest developments through the
thoughtful considered responses to the Lute List of people like you and
Jurgen Frenz. I too see no reason to change my final comment to
Neumann (pasted below) made in April last and the spam filter will
continue.
Martyn Hodgson
---
-
2 Apr at 12:10 PM
To T[1]ristan von Neumann [2]lutelist Net
Thank you for this. As I understand it your basic thesis is that,
because there
appears to be some similarities, various European early musical forms
must
have been directly copied at the time (and appropriated by Monteverdi
and
others) from existing music found on the subcontinent.
It will certainly be instructive to read your promised full and
properly developed
paper on this matter. In which refereed scholarly journal are you
seeking to have
it published? - and when will it appear?
Incidentally, I'm sure you will be aware of a basic rule of formal
logic employed
in any recognised objective analysis: - correlation does not imply
causation. A
mistaken belief that correlation signifies causation is, as you will
also be aware,
a questionable cause logical fallacy. No doubt you will, therefore,
rigorously
address this particularly relevant matter in your forthcoming paper.
Martyn Hodgson
__
From: Ido Shdaimah
To: lutelist Net
Sent: Friday, 10 August 2018, 12:46
Subject: [LUTE] Re: The illusory truth effect [was: Re:
Francesco//Siena 62 - "5th Mode" - Raga Kamod
Dear Tristan,
The Harmonium isn't traditionally used Indian Classical music:
In Indian music, only the Swaras (notes) Pa and Sa are set on exact
points. The other Sawaras vary within ranges called Swarakshetras.
The
maximal and minimal points are called Shrutis, and there are 22 of
them. When using different Ragas, different Shrutis are used for each
Swara. The Harmonium is equal-tempered, and as so, cannot operate
with
in that natural environment of Indian Classical music.
Also, historically, the Harmonium became popular in India during the
mid-late 19 century, due to portability and ease of play.
I think one of the biggest problems with your theory is that if Raags
and CI music theory was so well known in the west, then we would
probably have ample evidence of that use, like mentions in theory
treatises.
You also need to consider another, more practical issue: such a deep
musical exchange you suggest can only happen if there is EXTENSIVE
direct contact between the two cultures. You aren't suggesting here
that one composer used IC theory in his composition, but ALL of them.
This would mean every single composer would have had to have deep
knowledge of IC music, and that would require a much bigger contact.
Even these days with the ease of communication and knowledge
acquisition, most classical composers are generally oblivious about
IC
theory.
Finally, if you really want your hypothesis evaluated you have to
write
it down and clearly compare structures from Western pieces to Raags,
using both Western and IC theory terminology (Shrutis, Swaras, Raags,
Chalan, Tala, all that from the IC side). Right now what you are
doing
is creating a mesh up then expecting everybody to hear what tou heard
without providing any vigorous explanation. Maybe it's telling that
no
body else seems to hear what you hear.
P. S.
Are my messages coming out indented correctly?
On Fri, A
[LUTE] Re: The illusory truth effect [was: Re: Francesco//Siena 62 - "5th Mode" - Raga Kamod
Many months ago I decided to flag Tristan von Neumann's emails as spam. He appeared impervious to reasoned thought and only wished to put across a cranky assertion based on very little actual hard evidence rather than his coincidental speculation. I even wondered whether the whole thing was so far-fetched as to be a spoof.. So I've only now caught up with the latest developments through the thoughtful considered responses to the Lute List of people like you and Jurgen Frenz. I too see no reason to change my final comment to Neumann (pasted below) made in April last and the spam filter will continue. Martyn Hodgson --- - 2 Apr at 12:10 PM To T[1]ristan von Neumann [2]lutelist Net Thank you for this. As I understand it your basic thesis is that, because there appears to be some similarities, various European early musical forms must have been directly copied at the time (and appropriated by Monteverdi and others) from existing music found on the subcontinent. It will certainly be instructive to read your promised full and properly developed paper on this matter. In which refereed scholarly journal are you seeking to have it published? - and when will it appear? Incidentally, I'm sure you will be aware of a basic rule of formal logic employed in any recognised objective analysis: - correlation does not imply causation. A mistaken belief that correlation signifies causation is, as you will also be aware, a questionable cause logical fallacy. No doubt you will, therefore, rigorously address this particularly relevant matter in your forthcoming paper. Martyn Hodgson __ From: Ido Shdaimah To: lutelist Net Sent: Friday, 10 August 2018, 12:46 Subject: [LUTE] Re: The illusory truth effect [was: Re: Francesco//Siena 62 - "5th Mode" - Raga Kamod Dear Tristan, The Harmonium isn't traditionally used Indian Classical music: In Indian music, only the Swaras (notes) Pa and Sa are set on exact points. The other Sawaras vary within ranges called Swarakshetras. The maximal and minimal points are called Shrutis, and there are 22 of them. When using different Ragas, different Shrutis are used for each Swara. The Harmonium is equal-tempered, and as so, cannot operate with in that natural environment of Indian Classical music. Also, historically, the Harmonium became popular in India during the mid-late 19 century, due to portability and ease of play. I think one of the biggest problems with your theory is that if Raags and CI music theory was so well known in the west, then we would probably have ample evidence of that use, like mentions in theory treatises. You also need to consider another, more practical issue: such a deep musical exchange you suggest can only happen if there is EXTENSIVE direct contact between the two cultures. You aren't suggesting here that one composer used IC theory in his composition, but ALL of them. This would mean every single composer would have had to have deep knowledge of IC music, and that would require a much bigger contact. Even these days with the ease of communication and knowledge acquisition, most classical composers are generally oblivious about IC theory. Finally, if you really want your hypothesis evaluated you have to write it down and clearly compare structures from Western pieces to Raags, using both Western and IC theory terminology (Shrutis, Swaras, Raags, Chalan, Tala, all that from the IC side). Right now what you are doing is creating a mesh up then expecting everybody to hear what tou heard without providing any vigorous explanation. Maybe it's telling that no body else seems to hear what you hear. P. S. Are my messages coming out indented correctly? On Fri, Aug 10, 2018, 05:40 Tristan von Neumann <[1][3]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de> wrote: Dear Jurgen, do you consider this an illusion too? [2][4]https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/siena-nos-59-63-62-rag a-kamod-eri-jaane-na-doongi-nirali-kartik How do you explain this? Listen to the *tonal* percussion and where the lute goes into cadence. How do you explain that the harmonium basically acts like a regal organ in this context? You can have spices, cloth and slaves from India, but music, *not interested*?? In a world that is constantly in need of music because there were no mobile phones or even recordings?... This I only found because I believe that the influence is true. If I were a skeptic like you, I
[LUTE] Re: The illusory truth effect [was: Re: Francesco//Siena 62 - "5th Mode" - Raga Kamod
Dear Ido, I am well aware that the Harmonium is not an Indian instrument. Also You are telling me what I told everyone on the list a while ago. If you criticize my mashups you should at least read what I have written before on that topic. BTW it is not even true that the harmonium is equal-tempered. See "Encyclopedia of Indian Music with special reference to Ragas", Delhi 1918/1986/88 The temperament is not really an important issue, except for Europeans putting it into polyphony. Why all the experiments and disagreements in Europe exactly in this time of reception? This is a theoretical matter that will be explored, but it is at this stage not helpful. Also You might want to consider that musical ears were very perceptive in a world without sound pollution. You cannot begin to have an idea, except if you are living in a remote monastery the whole time. Also, it is pure assumption of You without any bases what and what not are the abilities of musicians around the time. Mozart could write down a score of Allegri's Miserere from memory. And the divine Francesco could not? The grand Albert was tone-deaf? Ragas are ostinate, so... How long do You need to listen to be able to join in a Passamezzo, a Romanesca, or a Ciacona...? I can bastard-sing to any of those fantasies or even Baroque Sonatas without hearing them first, why can't someone who wrote them adapt a Raga? Making mashups and using recordings is a usual method in Ethnomusicology. Using a "score"/transcription is not what I plan to do for everything. It is not my problem if someone does not hear when the same notes are sung. You don't need a score to every ciacona, you need the model. The Raga models are defined by Vadi and Samvadi of the respective scale and some basic moves, everything in detail can be transcribed as an example, but it is an ultimately useless work to transcribe every improvisation. If this is not accepted with You, or some sourpuss sceptic musicologist or some pseudo-purist lutist (as if the 16th century had been such a purist age!!!), it is not my problem. I am not using the terminology because I have to explain it first. I did that with the basics a while ago, but I don't expect everybody to be familiar with it. I am presenting you with the fun part of my research, not the stuff people would have to dig into. That is left to the article. And again: Lisa Herrmann-Fertig's upcoming dissertation shows, and she has told me that personally on the phone, intense musical transfer, which is backed up by documents she found in the Vatican. You can't read it yet, but please assume I am not making this up, as it will be published anyway in the next time. You don't accuse me of lying to you, are you?? Am 10.08.2018 um 13:41 schrieb Ido Shdaimah: Dear Tristan, The Harmonium isn't traditionally used Indian Classical music: In Indian music, only the Swaras (notes) Pa and Sa are set on exact points. The other Sawaras vary within ranges called Swarakshetras. The maximal and minimal points are called Shrutis, and there are 22 of them. When using different Ragas, different Shrutis are used for each Swara. The Harmonium is equal-tempered, and as so, cannot operate with in that natural environment of Indian Classical music. Also, historically, the Harmonium became popular in India during the mid-late 19 century, due to portability and ease of play. I think one of the biggest problems with your theory is that if Raags and CI music theory was so well known in the west, then we would probably have ample evidence of that use, like mentions in theory treatises. You also need to consider another, more practical issue: such a deep musical exchange you suggest can only happen if there is EXTENSIVE direct contact between the two cultures. You aren't suggesting here that one composer used IC theory in his composition, but ALL of them. This would mean every single composer would have had to have deep knowledge of IC music, and that would require a much bigger contact. Even these days with the ease of communication and knowledge acquisition, most classical composers are generally oblivious about IC theory. Finally, if you really want your hypothesis evaluated you have to write it down and clearly compare structures from Western pieces to Raags, using both Western and IC theory terminology (Shrutis, Swaras, Raags, Chalan, Tala, all that from the IC side). Right now what you are doing is creating a mesh up then expecting everybody to hear what tou heard without providing any vigorous explanation. Maybe it's telling that no body else seems to hear what you hear. P. S. Are my messages coming out indented correctly? On Fri, Aug 10, 2018, 05:40 Tristan von Neumann <[1]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de> wrote: Dear Jurgen, do you consider this an illusion too?
[LUTE] Re: The illusory truth effect [was: Re: Francesco//Siena 62 - "5th Mode" - Raga Kamod
Dear Tristan, The Harmonium isn't traditionally used Indian Classical music: In Indian music, only the Swaras (notes) Pa and Sa are set on exact points. The other Sawaras vary within ranges called Swarakshetras. The maximal and minimal points are called Shrutis, and there are 22 of them. When using different Ragas, different Shrutis are used for each Swara. The Harmonium is equal-tempered, and as so, cannot operate with in that natural environment of Indian Classical music. Also, historically, the Harmonium became popular in India during the mid-late 19 century, due to portability and ease of play. I think one of the biggest problems with your theory is that if Raags and CI music theory was so well known in the west, then we would probably have ample evidence of that use, like mentions in theory treatises. You also need to consider another, more practical issue: such a deep musical exchange you suggest can only happen if there is EXTENSIVE direct contact between the two cultures. You aren't suggesting here that one composer used IC theory in his composition, but ALL of them. This would mean every single composer would have had to have deep knowledge of IC music, and that would require a much bigger contact. Even these days with the ease of communication and knowledge acquisition, most classical composers are generally oblivious about IC theory. Finally, if you really want your hypothesis evaluated you have to write it down and clearly compare structures from Western pieces to Raags, using both Western and IC theory terminology (Shrutis, Swaras, Raags, Chalan, Tala, all that from the IC side). Right now what you are doing is creating a mesh up then expecting everybody to hear what tou heard without providing any vigorous explanation. Maybe it's telling that no body else seems to hear what you hear. P. S. Are my messages coming out indented correctly? On Fri, Aug 10, 2018, 05:40 Tristan von Neumann <[1]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de> wrote: Dear Jurgen, do you consider this an illusion too? [2]https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/siena-nos-59-63-62-rag a-kamod-eri-jaane-na-doongi-nirali-kartik How do you explain this? Listen to the *tonal* percussion and where the lute goes into cadence. How do you explain that the harmonium basically acts like a regal organ in this context? You can have spices, cloth and slaves from India, but music, *not interested*?? In a world that is constantly in need of music because there were no mobile phones or even recordings?... This I only found because I believe that the influence is true. If I were a skeptic like you, I would never have achieved anything - because I would not have tried. Am 09.08.2018 um 20:32 schrieb Tristan von Neumann: > Dear Jurgen, > > I am afraid you are ill advised in regards to the history of the > discovery and exploration of the Indian subcontinent. > Already with the first voyage of Vasco to India, Indians have been > brought to Europe to have a look at the Portuguese trading goods, to > return to India later and tell about what would be available for Indian > kings and their populace. > Numerous detailed expeditions accounted for the discovery of people and > culture of India already in the 16th century (Jesuit Mission). > The first German expedition to India by the houses of Fugger etc. > together with Italian Merchants of the famous families took place > already in 1505/06. > > There are already many elements of Indian architecture used in > Portuguese Manuelism architecture in the beginning of the 16th century. > > What exactly is your argument against musical transfer? > > > > Am 09.08.2018 um 19:08 schrieb Jurgen Frenz: >> Dear Tristan, >> >> in all respect I strongly believe you're a victim of the described >> illusory truth effect. History tells us that the first Europeans to be >> in direct contact with the Indian subcontinent were the Portuguese >> starting a trading post in Calcutta in 1505 for spices (clove to start >> with). The British followed in 1605. I simply and categorically refuse >> to spend time on thinking of an Indian influence in a 1540 fantasia by >> Milano, regardless of how many times you repeat that 'it's obvious, >> one just would need to listen carefully enough.' >> I do not belittle or question the honesty of your research, I just >> refuse to believe the impossible. >> >> Please let us not continue exchanging arguments, there was a period of >> that a few months ago and it didn't lead anywhere. >> >> Best regards and respectfully >> Jurgen >> >> >>
[LUTE] Re: The illusory truth effect [was: Re: Francesco//Siena 62 - "5th Mode" - Raga Kamod
Or this? https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/bertali-sonata-in-g-a-8-nicolai-sonata-in-c-a-2-raga-kamod-eri-jaane-na-doongi-nirali-kartik Am 10.08.2018 um 04:39 schrieb Tristan von Neumann: Dear Jurgen, do you consider this an illusion too? https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/siena-nos-59-63-62-raga-kamod-eri-jaane-na-doongi-nirali-kartik How do you explain this? Listen to the *tonal* percussion and where the lute goes into cadence. How do you explain that the harmonium basically acts like a regal organ in this context? You can have spices, cloth and slaves from India, but music, *not interested*?? In a world that is constantly in need of music because there were no mobile phones or even recordings?... This I only found because I believe that the influence is true. If I were a skeptic like you, I would never have achieved anything - because I would not have tried. Am 09.08.2018 um 20:32 schrieb Tristan von Neumann: Dear Jurgen, I am afraid you are ill advised in regards to the history of the discovery and exploration of the Indian subcontinent. Already with the first voyage of Vasco to India, Indians have been brought to Europe to have a look at the Portuguese trading goods, to return to India later and tell about what would be available for Indian kings and their populace. Numerous detailed expeditions accounted for the discovery of people and culture of India already in the 16th century (Jesuit Mission). The first German expedition to India by the houses of Fugger etc. together with Italian Merchants of the famous families took place already in 1505/06. There are already many elements of Indian architecture used in Portuguese Manuelism architecture in the beginning of the 16th century. What exactly is your argument against musical transfer? Am 09.08.2018 um 19:08 schrieb Jurgen Frenz: Dear Tristan, in all respect I strongly believe you're a victim of the described illusory truth effect. History tells us that the first Europeans to be in direct contact with the Indian subcontinent were the Portuguese starting a trading post in Calcutta in 1505 for spices (clove to start with). The British followed in 1605. I simply and categorically refuse to spend time on thinking of an Indian influence in a 1540 fantasia by Milano, regardless of how many times you repeat that 'it's obvious, one just would need to listen carefully enough.' I do not belittle or question the honesty of your research, I just refuse to believe the impossible. Please let us not continue exchanging arguments, there was a period of that a few months ago and it didn't lead anywhere. Best regards and respectfully Jurgen -- “There is a voice that doesn’t use words. Listen.” Jalāl ad-Dīn Muhammad Rumi ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐ On 9 August 2018 9:26 PM, Tristan von Neumann wrote: Dear Jürgen, posting an article about the Illusory Truth Effect does not in anyway touch my findings, as the mere existence of such effect does enable you to apply it to everything you disagree with. If you disagree, you are welcome to discuss the claims on the subject itself, otherwise it is not helpful. It's like applying the phrase "Most conspiracy theories have no basis" to every claim that disagrees with reported events, regardless of the validity of the claim. Anyway, if my findings were null and void, you could also throw many commonly done things into the bin: The search for "vocal models of fantasias" is the same thing. If a soggetto and subsequent similar harmonic structure with motifs from a chanson make the Fantasy based on that chanson are accepted, why do you deny any connection with Indian music? From my point of view, the similarity of many ricercars and fantasies of the 16th century stem from the common Raga models used as the framework of a composition. The Siena Ms. is a model example of this similarity, and the book is even organized to display these similarities. The unclear concept of "mode" in the 16th century with the disagreement of cadence points etc. makes sense if mode is used as a concept like Raga. Different cadence points in the same scale are hallmarks of different Ragas. European theorists thought in terms of scale. This is also a problem in modern Indian musicology, because Bhatkhande organized the music in 10 scales that don't distinguish enough the properties of Ragas because up and down scales are often different. The difference between up and down scale is to my knowledge not recognized enough by European theorists either, hence the problematic concept of mode. From a historical standpoint, I am waiting to be able to cite from Lisa Herrmann-Fertig's upcoming dissertation, as she already found what I was looking for - historical musical transfers and proof of early deep reception of Indian music. So please Jurgen, if you already recognize that this is least fitting together, why not do something productive
[LUTE] Re: The illusory truth effect [was: Re: Francesco//Siena 62 - "5th Mode" - Raga Kamod
Dear Jurgen, do you consider this an illusion too? https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/siena-nos-59-63-62-raga-kamod-eri-jaane-na-doongi-nirali-kartik How do you explain this? Listen to the *tonal* percussion and where the lute goes into cadence. How do you explain that the harmonium basically acts like a regal organ in this context? You can have spices, cloth and slaves from India, but music, *not interested*?? In a world that is constantly in need of music because there were no mobile phones or even recordings?... This I only found because I believe that the influence is true. If I were a skeptic like you, I would never have achieved anything - because I would not have tried. Am 09.08.2018 um 20:32 schrieb Tristan von Neumann: Dear Jurgen, I am afraid you are ill advised in regards to the history of the discovery and exploration of the Indian subcontinent. Already with the first voyage of Vasco to India, Indians have been brought to Europe to have a look at the Portuguese trading goods, to return to India later and tell about what would be available for Indian kings and their populace. Numerous detailed expeditions accounted for the discovery of people and culture of India already in the 16th century (Jesuit Mission). The first German expedition to India by the houses of Fugger etc. together with Italian Merchants of the famous families took place already in 1505/06. There are already many elements of Indian architecture used in Portuguese Manuelism architecture in the beginning of the 16th century. What exactly is your argument against musical transfer? Am 09.08.2018 um 19:08 schrieb Jurgen Frenz: Dear Tristan, in all respect I strongly believe you're a victim of the described illusory truth effect. History tells us that the first Europeans to be in direct contact with the Indian subcontinent were the Portuguese starting a trading post in Calcutta in 1505 for spices (clove to start with). The British followed in 1605. I simply and categorically refuse to spend time on thinking of an Indian influence in a 1540 fantasia by Milano, regardless of how many times you repeat that 'it's obvious, one just would need to listen carefully enough.' I do not belittle or question the honesty of your research, I just refuse to believe the impossible. Please let us not continue exchanging arguments, there was a period of that a few months ago and it didn't lead anywhere. Best regards and respectfully Jurgen -- “There is a voice that doesn’t use words. Listen.” Jalāl ad-Dīn Muhammad Rumi ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐ On 9 August 2018 9:26 PM, Tristan von Neumann wrote: Dear Jürgen, posting an article about the Illusory Truth Effect does not in anyway touch my findings, as the mere existence of such effect does enable you to apply it to everything you disagree with. If you disagree, you are welcome to discuss the claims on the subject itself, otherwise it is not helpful. It's like applying the phrase "Most conspiracy theories have no basis" to every claim that disagrees with reported events, regardless of the validity of the claim. Anyway, if my findings were null and void, you could also throw many commonly done things into the bin: The search for "vocal models of fantasias" is the same thing. If a soggetto and subsequent similar harmonic structure with motifs from a chanson make the Fantasy based on that chanson are accepted, why do you deny any connection with Indian music? From my point of view, the similarity of many ricercars and fantasies of the 16th century stem from the common Raga models used as the framework of a composition. The Siena Ms. is a model example of this similarity, and the book is even organized to display these similarities. The unclear concept of "mode" in the 16th century with the disagreement of cadence points etc. makes sense if mode is used as a concept like Raga. Different cadence points in the same scale are hallmarks of different Ragas. European theorists thought in terms of scale. This is also a problem in modern Indian musicology, because Bhatkhande organized the music in 10 scales that don't distinguish enough the properties of Ragas because up and down scales are often different. The difference between up and down scale is to my knowledge not recognized enough by European theorists either, hence the problematic concept of mode. From a historical standpoint, I am waiting to be able to cite from Lisa Herrmann-Fertig's upcoming dissertation, as she already found what I was looking for - historical musical transfers and proof of early deep reception of Indian music. So please Jurgen, if you already recognize that this is least fitting together, why not do something productive like play Fantasies in Indian tempo, or even to Ragas to see what it's like? The whole idea is to find ways to play this music together live. The York festival recently had a "Dhrupad - Renaissance" concert
[LUTE] Re: The illusory truth effect [was: Re: Francesco//Siena 62 - "5th Mode" - Raga Kamod
Dear Jurgen, I am afraid you are ill advised in regards to the history of the discovery and exploration of the Indian subcontinent. Already with the first voyage of Vasco to India, Indians have been brought to Europe to have a look at the Portuguese trading goods, to return to India later and tell about what would be available for Indian kings and their populace. Numerous detailed expeditions accounted for the discovery of people and culture of India already in the 16th century (Jesuit Mission). The first German expedition to India by the houses of Fugger etc. together with Italian Merchants of the famous families took place already in 1505/06. There are already many elements of Indian architecture used in Portuguese Manuelism architecture in the beginning of the 16th century. What exactly is your argument against musical transfer? Am 09.08.2018 um 19:08 schrieb Jurgen Frenz: Dear Tristan, in all respect I strongly believe you're a victim of the described illusory truth effect. History tells us that the first Europeans to be in direct contact with the Indian subcontinent were the Portuguese starting a trading post in Calcutta in 1505 for spices (clove to start with). The British followed in 1605. I simply and categorically refuse to spend time on thinking of an Indian influence in a 1540 fantasia by Milano, regardless of how many times you repeat that 'it's obvious, one just would need to listen carefully enough.' I do not belittle or question the honesty of your research, I just refuse to believe the impossible. Please let us not continue exchanging arguments, there was a period of that a few months ago and it didn't lead anywhere. Best regards and respectfully Jurgen -- “There is a voice that doesn’t use words. Listen.” Jalāl ad-Dīn Muhammad Rumi ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐ On 9 August 2018 9:26 PM, Tristan von Neumann wrote: Dear Jürgen, posting an article about the Illusory Truth Effect does not in anyway touch my findings, as the mere existence of such effect does enable you to apply it to everything you disagree with. If you disagree, you are welcome to discuss the claims on the subject itself, otherwise it is not helpful. It's like applying the phrase "Most conspiracy theories have no basis" to every claim that disagrees with reported events, regardless of the validity of the claim. Anyway, if my findings were null and void, you could also throw many commonly done things into the bin: The search for "vocal models of fantasias" is the same thing. If a soggetto and subsequent similar harmonic structure with motifs from a chanson make the Fantasy based on that chanson are accepted, why do you deny any connection with Indian music? From my point of view, the similarity of many ricercars and fantasies of the 16th century stem from the common Raga models used as the framework of a composition. The Siena Ms. is a model example of this similarity, and the book is even organized to display these similarities. The unclear concept of "mode" in the 16th century with the disagreement of cadence points etc. makes sense if mode is used as a concept like Raga. Different cadence points in the same scale are hallmarks of different Ragas. European theorists thought in terms of scale. This is also a problem in modern Indian musicology, because Bhatkhande organized the music in 10 scales that don't distinguish enough the properties of Ragas because up and down scales are often different. The difference between up and down scale is to my knowledge not recognized enough by European theorists either, hence the problematic concept of mode. From a historical standpoint, I am waiting to be able to cite from Lisa Herrmann-Fertig's upcoming dissertation, as she already found what I was looking for - historical musical transfers and proof of early deep reception of Indian music. So please Jurgen, if you already recognize that this is least fitting together, why not do something productive like play Fantasies in Indian tempo, or even to Ragas to see what it's like? The whole idea is to find ways to play this music together live. The York festival recently had a "Dhrupad - Renaissance" concert where Indian music and Renaissance Music were played side by side, though not simultaneously. It's only a matter of time until someone does live what I do in the mashups. Said concert will be broadcast in September on BBC, I'll post the link then. http://www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/16352971.review-york-early-music-festival-hathor-consort-dhrupad-fantasia-gloriana-and-akbar-the-great-national-centre-for-early-music/ Am 09.08.2018 um 07:11 schrieb Jurgen Frenz: For what it's worth, here is a reminder of an experiment how false claims, repeated over and over again, become accepted by some individuals. Tristan, I see your attempts to convince people precisely in this line of practice. To simply your google research, here's a link to a wiki article
[LUTE] Re: The illusory truth effect [was: Re: Francesco//Siena 62 - "5th Mode" - Raga Kamod
Dear Tristan, in all respect I strongly believe you're a victim of the described illusory truth effect. History tells us that the first Europeans to be in direct contact with the Indian subcontinent were the Portuguese starting a trading post in Calcutta in 1505 for spices (clove to start with). The British followed in 1605. I simply and categorically refuse to spend time on thinking of an Indian influence in a 1540 fantasia by Milano, regardless of how many times you repeat that 'it's obvious, one just would need to listen carefully enough.' I do not belittle or question the honesty of your research, I just refuse to believe the impossible. Please let us not continue exchanging arguments, there was a period of that a few months ago and it didn't lead anywhere. Best regards and respectfully Jurgen -- “There is a voice that doesn’t use words. Listen.” Jalāl ad-Dīn Muhammad Rumi ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐ On 9 August 2018 9:26 PM, Tristan von Neumann wrote: > Dear Jürgen, > > posting an article about the Illusory Truth Effect does not in anyway > touch my findings, as the mere existence of such effect does enable you > to apply it to everything you disagree with. > If you disagree, you are welcome to discuss the claims on the subject > itself, otherwise it is not helpful. > It's like applying the phrase "Most conspiracy theories have no basis" > to every claim that disagrees with reported events, regardless of the > validity of the claim. > > Anyway, if my findings were null and void, you could also throw many > commonly done things into the bin: > The search for "vocal models of fantasias" is the same thing. If a > soggetto and subsequent similar harmonic structure with motifs from a > chanson make the Fantasy based on that chanson are accepted, why do you > deny any connection with Indian music? > > From my point of view, the similarity of many ricercars and fantasies > of the 16th century stem from the common Raga models used as the > framework of a composition. The Siena Ms. is a model example of this > similarity, and the book is even organized to display these similarities. > The unclear concept of "mode" in the 16th century with the disagreement > of cadence points etc. makes sense if mode is used as a concept like > Raga. Different cadence points in the same scale are hallmarks of > different Ragas. European theorists thought in terms of scale. > This is also a problem in modern Indian musicology, because Bhatkhande > organized the music in 10 scales that don't distinguish enough the > properties of Ragas because up and down scales are often different. > The difference between up and down scale is to my knowledge not > recognized enough by European theorists either, hence the problematic > concept of mode. > > From a historical standpoint, I am waiting to be able to cite from Lisa > Herrmann-Fertig's upcoming dissertation, as she already found what I was > looking for - historical musical transfers and proof of early deep > reception of Indian music. > > So please Jurgen, if you already recognize that this is least fitting > together, why not do something productive like play Fantasies in Indian > tempo, or even to Ragas to see what it's like? > The whole idea is to find ways to play this music together live. > > The York festival recently had a "Dhrupad - Renaissance" concert where > Indian music and Renaissance Music were played side by side, though not > simultaneously. It's only a matter of time until someone does live what > I do in the mashups. > Said concert will be broadcast in September on BBC, I'll post the link then. > > http://www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/16352971.review-york-early-music-festival-hathor-consort-dhrupad-fantasia-gloriana-and-akbar-the-great-national-centre-for-early-music/ > > Am 09.08.2018 um 07:11 schrieb Jurgen Frenz: > > > For what it's worth, here is a reminder of an experiment how false claims, > > repeated over and over again, become accepted by some individuals. Tristan, > > I see your attempts to convince people precisely in this line of practice. > > To simply your google research, here's a link to a wiki article > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illusory_truth_effect > > Enjoy reading > > Jurgen > > > > “There is a voice that doesn’t use words. Listen.” > > Jalāl ad-Dīn Muhammad Rumi > > ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐ > > On 9 August 2018 2:07 AM, Tristan von Neumann tristanvonneum...@gmx.de > > wrote: > > > > > This version is even better. > > > Imagine this is the late 16th century singing by the Donne di Ferrara or > > > similar groups... > > > https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/francesco-siena-no-62-eri-jaane-na-doongi-raga-kamod-nirali-kartik-version-iii > > > Am 08.08.2018 um 19:22 schrieb Tristan von Neumann: > > > > > > > Dear Lutists, > > > > Francesco and Ganassi fans will rejoice over this sweet unification as > > > > Ronu Majumdar plays quite some improv "over" the Francesco background.
[LUTE] Re: The illusory truth effect [was: Re: Francesco//Siena 62 - "5th Mode" - Raga Kamod
Dear Jürgen, posting an article about the Illusory Truth Effect does not in anyway touch my findings, as the mere existence of such effect does enable you to apply it to everything you disagree with. If you disagree, you are welcome to discuss the claims on the subject itself, otherwise it is not helpful. It's like applying the phrase "Most conspiracy theories have no basis" to every claim that disagrees with reported events, regardless of the validity of the claim. Anyway, if my findings were null and void, you could also throw many commonly done things into the bin: The search for "vocal models of fantasias" is the same thing. If a soggetto and subsequent similar harmonic structure with motifs from a chanson make the Fantasy based on that chanson are accepted, why do you deny any connection with Indian music? From my point of view, the similarity of many ricercars and fantasies of the 16th century stem from the common Raga models used as the framework of a composition. The Siena Ms. is a model example of this similarity, and the book is even organized to display these similarities. The unclear concept of "mode" in the 16th century with the disagreement of cadence points etc. makes sense if mode is used as a concept like Raga. Different cadence points in the same scale are hallmarks of different Ragas. European theorists thought in terms of scale. This is also a problem in modern Indian musicology, because Bhatkhande organized the music in 10 scales that don't distinguish enough the properties of Ragas because up and down scales are often different. The difference between up and down scale is to my knowledge not recognized enough by European theorists either, hence the problematic concept of mode. From a historical standpoint, I am waiting to be able to cite from Lisa Herrmann-Fertig's upcoming dissertation, as she already found what I was looking for - historical musical transfers and proof of early deep reception of Indian music. So please Jurgen, if you already recognize that this is least fitting together, why not do something productive like play Fantasies in Indian tempo, or even to Ragas to see what it's like? The whole idea is to find ways to play this music together live. The York festival recently had a "Dhrupad - Renaissance" concert where Indian music and Renaissance Music were played side by side, though not simultaneously. It's only a matter of time until someone does live what I do in the mashups. Said concert will be broadcast in September on BBC, I'll post the link then. http://www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/16352971.review-york-early-music-festival-hathor-consort-dhrupad-fantasia-gloriana-and-akbar-the-great-national-centre-for-early-music/ Am 09.08.2018 um 07:11 schrieb Jurgen Frenz: For what it's worth, here is a reminder of an experiment how false claims, repeated over and over again, become accepted by some individuals. Tristan, I see your attempts to convince people precisely in this line of practice. To simply your google research, here's a link to a wiki article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illusory_truth_effect Enjoy reading Jurgen -- “There is a voice that doesn’t use words. Listen.” Jalāl ad-Dīn Muhammad Rumi ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐ On 9 August 2018 2:07 AM, Tristan von Neumann wrote: This version is even better. Imagine this is the late 16th century singing by the Donne di Ferrara or similar groups... https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/francesco-siena-no-62-eri-jaane-na-doongi-raga-kamod-nirali-kartik-version-iii Am 08.08.2018 um 19:22 schrieb Tristan von Neumann: Dear Lutists, Francesco and Ganassi fans will rejoice over this sweet unification as Ronu Majumdar plays quite some improv "over" the Francesco background. https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/siena-62-francesco-raga-kamod-ronu-majumdar Sorry for the not so beautiful playing, it's quite heavy for me to concentrate on the groove while playing right. But I hope to prove a point - that is that the criteria of choice in the Siena Ms. seem to be conciously implying that modes also have a certain overarching structure that must be followed, hence the great similarity in many of the fantasies of the same mode. Maybe a better lutist than yours truly can do a better mix - the Raga is to be found on youtube and can be used as a playback. I did not change the pitch, so this should work with a G lute. Also other places to insert this or similar fantasies may appear when trying something. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
