Re: Use of msgmerge

[Jürgen Spitzmüller]

Am Montag, den 25.03.2019, 18:17 +0100 schrieb Jean-Pierre Chrétien:
> Dear LyX developers,
> 
> As you can see here:
> 
> /ext/lyx/master$  msgfmt --statistics po/fr.po
> 7153 translated messages, 307 fuzzy translations, 137 untranslated
> messages.
> 
> I have some work to perform to get French translations for master up-
> to-date.
> 
> Among the strings to be translated in master, some have been
> translated in 2.3.x 
> branch (which is currently up-to-date).
> 
> Does it make sense to run
> 
> /ext/lyx/master$ msgmerge -o po/frnew.po /ext/lyx/2.3.x/po/fr.po 
> /ext/lyx/master/po/fr.po
> 
> (i.e. consider po file in branach as new and po file in master as
> old) to merge 
> 2.3.x translations in master translations ?

I have no experience with that. As for single po files, e.g. lokalize
(the KDE po editor) allows to set up another po file as "Primary Sync",
which lets you import translations from stable po with a single key
stroke (per string).

HTH
Jürgen


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Re: about the Win installer

[Richard Kimberly Heck]

On 3/26/19 11:32 AM, Uwe Stöhr wrote:
> On 26.03.2019 03:55, Richard Kimberly Heck wrote:
>
>> It has been said before, but I'll say it again: It's insulting for those
>> of us who put in as much time on LyX development as we do to be told
>> that we don't care about the needs of average users and only do what
>> benefits us.
>
> Why is this insulting? 

If you can't understand that, then there's nothing anyone can do to help
you.


>
>> I mean, shit, do you have any idea how many hours I spent
>> figuring out how to create a Windows installer?
>
> But you never asked me for help but did everything on your own. 

Excuse me, but you disappeared after you didn't get your way. There
wouldn't be an official Windows installer if I hadn't build one.


>> Do you think that  benefited me personally, or 'expert users', in any
>> way at all?
>
> Yes, I think so because otherwise why was it for you that important to
> make decisions for Windows users? You don't use Windows for your daily
> tasks so you could let things be as they have been developed together
> with the Win user community over the years. You wanted to change it
> nevertheless so there must have been a personal benefit for you.

That is just silly. And offensive.

I was done with this discussion a while ago, and I am really done with
it now.

Riki

Re: about the Win installer

[Uwe Stöhr]

On 26.03.2019 03:55, Richard Kimberly Heck wrote:


That has not been true for a while now. It is very much not true now
that we've shifted lyx.org to a much more reliable server.


Every server can stop working. Therefore having mirror is always a good
idea.


It has been said before, but I'll say it again: It's insulting for those
of us who put in as much time on LyX development as we do to be told
that we don't care about the needs of average users and only do what
benefits us.


Why is this insulting? I invested many years in developing LyX and I was
told frequently that I was mostly implementing things I need personally.
This criticism was right and not insulting. At first I implemented e.g.
math stuff since as physics student I needed formulas all the time. It
is always a problem for a developer to focus on personal needs and I am
no exception in this respect.


I mean, shit, do you have any idea how many hours I spent
figuring out how to create a Windows installer?


But you never asked me for help but did everything on your own. This is
no collaborative development. I think I also spent much more time on the
installer than you, so invested time is no sensible argument.


Do you think that
benefited me personally, or 'expert users', in any way at all?


Yes, I think so because otherwise why was it for you that important to
make decisions for Windows users? You don't use Windows for your daily
tasks so you could let things be as they have been developed together
with the Win user community over the years. You wanted to change it
nevertheless so there must have been a personal benefit for you.


What there is here is (at most) a disagreement about what 'average
users' need or want, but for some reason you've appointed yourself as
the spokesman for 'average users' and indict the rest of us as selfish.


Let's ask what an installer is for. With your knowledge it is an easy
task to set up a fully functional LyX. You could extract its files from
a ZIP, install TeXLive, ImageMagick, Python and friends and can start
writing.
So an installer is for users who don't know what has to be setup in
order to get a fully functional LyX. All others don't really need an
installer. When I started with LyX there was no installer and I
nevertheless could use LyX on Windows.
Now you have an installer that requires more knowledge many users have
so - to use you wording - it is selfish to make decisions on personal needs.

Now take for example the laboratory guys in my company. They have to
write a laboratory journal and LyX would be the perfect program to do
this. But they are excellent laboratory workers no computer experts. You
cannot expect them to learn in advance what a package and a distribution is.
They use LibreOffice instead and this is sad for LyX. I mean if LyX does
not try to attract more users by offering tools that make life as easy
as possible I don't understand why I should develop it. Yes, here I am
selfish because it makes me happy if people to use what I develop.


I got the feeling that most core LyX developers are working at
universities and institutes while the majority of users have business
jobs where time matters.


If so, then maybe they should do something to support development. Like
pay for it.


Why? Users have various choices what to use and it is understandable to
choose programs making life more easy.
I also worked for companies that regularly spend money to Wikipedia,
LibreOffice etc. because their employees benefit from it. At first
companies need to see that a program/service is useful.
I also understand that private persons don't spend in most cases no
money as they don't have much of it and also LyX is no foundation to get
some money back with the tax repayments for charitable contributions.

regards Uwe

Re: [LyX/master] Win installer: fix bug on init

[Jean-Marc Lasgouttes]

Le 26/03/2019 à 15:44, Uwe Stöhr a écrit :

On 26.03.2019 04:01, Richard Kimberly Heck wrote:


-!define ImageMagickVersion "7.0.7"
+!define ImageMagickVersion "7.0.8"


Please do not change such things on your own. I will change them when I
update such things in my own build tree.


So this is a new rule? In the past the consensus was to use up to date
third-party applications. Imagemagick 7.0.8 was released in June 2018:
https://imagemagick.org/script/changelog.php

Users should benefit from a recent ImageMagick since dozens of bugs have
been fixed that could affect users. Therefore we should not rely on what
a certain person has installed on his system.


What in Riki's answer made you think that the version will not be 
updated when time comes?


JMarc

Re: [LyX/master] Win installer: fix bug on init

[Uwe Stöhr]

On 26.03.2019 04:01, Richard Kimberly Heck wrote:


-!define ImageMagickVersion "7.0.7"
+!define ImageMagickVersion "7.0.8"


Please do not change such things on your own. I will change them when I
update such things in my own build tree.


So this is a new rule? In the past the consensus was to use up to date
third-party applications. Imagemagick 7.0.8 was released in June 2018:
https://imagemagick.org/script/changelog.php

Users should benefit from a recent ImageMagick since dozens of bugs have
been fixed that could affect users. Therefore we should not rely on what
a certain person has installed on his system.

regards Uwe

Re: [LyX/master] Toward again working make distcheck.

[Jürgen Spitzmüller]

Am Di., 26. März 2019 um 15:33 Uhr schrieb Pavel Sanda :

> the current attic in lib look somewhat unsystematic now though:
> ./bind/attic
> ./images/attic
> ./doc/attic
>

I've moved all these to ./attic now.

Jürgen


> ./attic
>
>
> Pavel
>

Re: [LyX/master] Toward again working make distcheck.

[Pavel Sanda]

On Tue, Mar 26, 2019 at 03:26:10PM +0100, Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote:
> Le 26/03/2019 ?? 15:24, Jürgen Spitzmüller a écrit :
>> Am Di., 26. März 2019 um 15:07 Uhr schrieb Jean-Marc Lasgouttes 
>> mailto:lasgout...@lyx.org>>:
>>  > I propose to move the attic stuff into lib/doc/attic/templates
>> and be done with it.
>> Or rather  lib/attic/templates.
>> This is indeed the best solution.
>> Done.

Good, make distcheck work here now. Let's see what jenkins has to say about the 
current situation.

>> Should we move lib/doc/attic also to lib/attic/doc?
>
> Yes, definitely.

the current attic in lib look somewhat unsystematic now though:
./bind/attic
./images/attic
./doc/attic
./attic


Pavel

Re: [LyX/master] Toward again working make distcheck.

[Jean-Marc Lasgouttes]

Le 26/03/2019 à 15:24, Jürgen Spitzmüller a écrit :
Am Di., 26. März 2019 um 15:07 Uhr schrieb Jean-Marc Lasgouttes 
mailto:lasgout...@lyx.org>>:


 > I propose to move the attic stuff into lib/doc/attic/templates
and be done with it.

Or rather  lib/attic/templates.

This is indeed the best solution.


Done.
Should we move lib/doc/attic also to lib/attic/doc?


Yes, definitely.

JMarc

Re: [LyX/master] Toward again working make distcheck.

[Jürgen Spitzmüller]

Am Di., 26. März 2019 um 15:07 Uhr schrieb Jean-Marc Lasgouttes <
lasgout...@lyx.org>:

> > I propose to move the attic stuff into lib/doc/attic/templates and be
> done with it.
>
> Or rather  lib/attic/templates.
>
> This is indeed the best solution.
>

Done.
Should we move lib/doc/attic also to lib/attic/doc?

Jürgen


>
> JMarc
>

Re: [LyX/master] Toward again working make distcheck.

[Jean-Marc Lasgouttes]

Le 26/03/2019 à 14:50, Pavel Sanda a écrit :

On Tue, Mar 26, 2019 at 10:00:04AM +0100, Jürgen Spitzmüller wrote:

If I correctly understand Pavel's eloborations, because I have added the
files to Rules-Lyx (in order to get the names into the po files).


That's indeed my finding.
I propose to move the attic stuff into lib/doc/attic/templates and be done with 
it.


Or rather  lib/attic/templates.

This is indeed the best solution.

JMarc

Re: [LyX/master] Toward again working make distcheck.

[Pavel Sanda]

On Tue, Mar 26, 2019 at 10:00:04AM +0100, Jürgen Spitzmüller wrote:
> If I correctly understand Pavel's eloborations, because I have added the
> files to Rules-Lyx (in order to get the names into the po files).

That's indeed my finding.
I propose to move the attic stuff into lib/doc/attic/templates and be done with 
it.

Pavel

Re: about the Win installer

[Jean-Pierre Chrétien]

Le 26/03/2019 à 03:22, Uwe Stöhr a écrit :



But that is my main problem with LyX - the development focus on
developers needs, not on the needs of average users. Average users don't
need a dozen more expert features every release but a better workflow
allowing them to write more in shorter time, to collaborate with
colleagues, good and up-to date documentation etc.


That's true that "average" users as you name them do not necessarily care about
some specific packages which appear with new releases of LyX. But they can be 
fairly productive with a several years old release of LyX and TeXLive.
In fact, we got much more problem with the development model of MiKTeX, which is 
permanently upgrading (and killed LyX on Windows for some time incidently).
A development model à la Debian, where I can stick to the stable release if I 
want to, seems much better to me than the MiKTeX stuff. And I'm not alone to 
think like that, so why distributors would boast about LTS releases ?




I got the feeling that most core LyX developers are working at
universities and institutes while the majority of users have business
jobs where time matters. 


Obviously, you do not know what you are speaking about. Do you really think that 
people working in institutions have no deadlines ?
I worked in a research institute before I retired and I had deadlines all the 
time for reports, presentations, papers and so on. That is exactly the reason 
for using LaTeX instead of Word: I did not want to be blocked because the TOC 
would mess up or the document being too big (happened once, I could not recover 
control on the document). Compared to LaTeX, LyX offered me much better 
productivity by easing e.g. a lot the reference and bibliography management 
among many other user-friendly features.


The time spent to learn about both LaTeX and LyX, and thus learning how to 
install them, was very rewarding in fact. I can't imagine anyone trying to 
install LyX on Windows to write a document due shortly. There is a learning 
curve, and your arguments about users having nothing to learn to be productive 
with LyX seem pointless to me.


--
Jean-Pierre

Re: [LyX/master] Toward again working make distcheck.

[Jürgen Spitzmüller]

Am Di., 26. März 2019 um 09:54 Uhr schrieb Jean-Marc Lasgouttes <
lasgout...@lyx.org>:

> So why does it break here but not in development/?
>

If I correctly understand Pavel's eloborations, because I have added the
files to Rules-Lyx (in order to get the names into the po files).

Jürgen


>
> JMarc
>

Re: [LyX/master] Toward again working make distcheck.

[Jean-Marc Lasgouttes]

Le 26/03/2019 à 09:53, Jürgen Spitzmüller a écrit :
Am Di., 26. März 2019 um 09:35 Uhr schrieb Jean-Marc Lasgouttes 
mailto:lasgout...@lyx.org>>:


Extra dist is for things that we do not really use for building, but we
ship anyway in the tar.gz file. Not mentioning a file in makefile is
one
step further.


I see. But not mentioning is the problem here. It breaks with make 
distcheck. See Pavel's OP.


So why does it break here but not in development/?

JMarc

Re: [LyX/master] Toward again working make distcheck.

[Jürgen Spitzmüller]

Am Di., 26. März 2019 um 09:35 Uhr schrieb Jean-Marc Lasgouttes <
lasgout...@lyx.org>:

> Extra dist is for things that we do not really use for building, but we
> ship anyway in the tar.gz file. Not mentioning a file in makefile is one
> step further.
>

I see. But not mentioning is the problem here. It breaks with make
distcheck. See Pavel's OP.

Jürgen


>
> JMarc
>

Re: about the Win installer

[Jean-Marc Lasgouttes]

Le 26/03/2019 à 03:22, Uwe Stöhr a écrit :

Am 11.02.2019 um 06:10 schrieb Richard Kimberly Heck:


Yes, we decided no longer to offer a bundled installer. That was a
decision we made as a group.


My point of view is: A group of non-Windows developers (at least not on
a daily basis) and with lots of background knowledge made a decision
what is good for Windows users that are no developers and have no
background knowledge.


Exactly. My algorithm is simple: I look at what people actually complain 
about, and I see whether I can do something about it (personally, I do 
not have solution to all problems). What is yours?


Last week I spent quite a few hours trying to hunt down performance 
issues on windows, installing profilers, trying to convince visual 
studio to build with debug information, rewriting my own profiling 
helper, and fixin the issue. I do not ask for a cookie in exchange. I 
just do not want to have to apologize for being only an academic for 
which time does not really matter (after all the state pays me even if I 
do not do anything, right?).


Now that this is off my chest, a few more technical points.


The main competitor for free writing software is LibreOffice and for
this you don't reed in advance, just click a few times in the installer
you you get a ready to use program and can focus on learning the program
itself rather than to learn how it works in its background.


What is wrong with Libreoffice? I use it myself, it depends on what  I 
am doing.



I mean when LyX was founded the goal was to hide LaTeX - to avoid that
users need to learn that much before they can start writing.


It still does that, but not in the absolutist way. We are not pretending 
that LaTeX does not exist, we are giving a hand to make it easier to use.



Have you had a look at the download statistics? Does LyX got more
downloads than before or less? That is what counts, not what we
developers like or not. Yes, providing a user-friendly installer is
stress but when I want to get users I cannot just do what pleases me as
developer the most.


Do you have statistic you are hiding from us, or is this just words? The 
fact is that we have close to no idea of who is using LyX and on which OS.



But that is my main problem with LyX - the development focus on
developers needs, not on the needs of average users. Average users don't
need a dozen more expert features every release but a better workflow
allowing them to write more in shorter time, to collaborate with
colleagues, good and up-to date documentation etc.

I got the feeling that most core LyX developers are working at
universities and institutes while the majority of users have business
jobs where time matters. When you have to deliver a documentation of a
device, a SOP for your colleagues, a project report etc. you don't have
time to fiddle around with packages but must be ready within the time
frame your boss defined. One could work everywhere as long as one
understands that the vast majority of persons writing texts are no
computer specialists. LyX drifted in my experience bit by bit towards
pleasing at first users with computer background knowledge instead of
thinking what average users needs and how more users can be attracted.
Developers preferably put in what they need personally.


I am speechless. I do not know in what fantasy world would people take 
on their own time to do only the precise things important people need 
because these do not have time to waste on mundane tasks. Do you re-read 
what you write?


JMarc

PS: do we have to have this same discussion every 6 months?

Re: [LyX/master] Toward again working make distcheck.

[Jean-Marc Lasgouttes]

Le 26/03/2019 à 09:31, Jürgen Spitzmüller a écrit :
Am Di., 26. März 2019 um 09:30 Uhr schrieb Jean-Marc Lasgouttes 
mailto:lasgout...@lyx.org>>:


Le 26/03/2019 à 09:03, Jürgen Spitzmüller a écrit :
 > Am Di., 26. März 2019 um 01:39 Uhr schrieb Pavel Sanda
mailto:sa...@lyx.org>
 > >>:
 >
 >     The only touch which seems to be missing for distcheck to work
 >     is templates/Attic. Either move it elsewhere or remove it or
 >     put the files to Makefile.am. Was not sure which is your
preference.
 >
 >
 > Would it be enough to put them to dist_noinst_DATA (or EXTRA_DIST)?

Why distribute them at all? I would ignore the directory, like we do
for
development/attic.


Isn't this what EXTRA_DIST is for?


Extra dist is for things that we do not really use for building, but we 
ship anyway in the tar.gz file. Not mentioning a file in makefile is one 
step further.


JMarc

Re: [LyX/master] Toward again working make distcheck.

[Jürgen Spitzmüller]

Am Di., 26. März 2019 um 09:30 Uhr schrieb Jean-Marc Lasgouttes <
lasgout...@lyx.org>:

> Le 26/03/2019 à 09:03, Jürgen Spitzmüller a écrit :
> > Am Di., 26. März 2019 um 01:39 Uhr schrieb Pavel Sanda  > >:
> >
> > The only touch which seems to be missing for distcheck to work
> > is templates/Attic. Either move it elsewhere or remove it or
> > put the files to Makefile.am. Was not sure which is your preference.
> >
> >
> > Would it be enough to put them to dist_noinst_DATA (or EXTRA_DIST)?
>
> Why distribute them at all? I would ignore the directory, like we do for
> development/attic.
>

Isn't this what EXTRA_DIST is for?

Jürgen


>
> JMarc
>

Re: [LyX/master] Toward again working make distcheck.

[Jean-Marc Lasgouttes]

Le 26/03/2019 à 09:03, Jürgen Spitzmüller a écrit :
Am Di., 26. März 2019 um 01:39 Uhr schrieb Pavel Sanda >:


The only touch which seems to be missing for distcheck to work
is templates/Attic. Either move it elsewhere or remove it or
put the files to Makefile.am. Was not sure which is your preference.


Would it be enough to put them to dist_noinst_DATA (or EXTRA_DIST)?


Why distribute them at all? I would ignore the directory, like we do for 
development/attic.


JMarc

Re: [LyX/master] Toward again working make distcheck.

[Jürgen Spitzmüller]

Am Di., 26. März 2019 um 01:39 Uhr schrieb Pavel Sanda :

> The only touch which seems to be missing for distcheck to work
> is templates/Attic. Either move it elsewhere or remove it or
> put the files to Makefile.am. Was not sure which is your preference.
>

Would it be enough to put them to dist_noinst_DATA (or EXTRA_DIST)?

Jürgen


> Pavel
>