build error when compiling 2.3.3 tarball

2019-10-20 Thread Uwe Stöhr

When compiling the LyX 2.3.3 tarball, I get this compilation error:

  D:\LyXGit\LyX23\development\cmake\lyx.rc(1): error RC2135: file not
found: lyx.ico [D:\LyXGit\LyX23\compile-2017\src\tex2lyx\tex2lyx.vcxproj]

I just pushed a fix to the 2.3 branch

regards Uwe
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Re: Are you going to offer new versions of LyXWinInsaller?

2019-04-05 Thread Uwe Stöhr

Am 04.04.2019 um 01:53 schrieb Richard Kimberly Heck:


You said I have to *compile* LyX on Windows. Of course I *install* LyX
under Windows to test it.


This is fine since you test if the compiled version works.


I agree, of course, that it would be better if the person responsible
for the Windows installer was a Windows user. But, at the moment, we
don't have anyone who is (i) willing to take that on and (ii) willing to
abide by decisions of the LyX team.


The main problem is that the rules don't follow the experience the LyX
Windows community collected over many years. Your decision not to
include a TeX distribution to the installer did not improve the
situation but worse it. Remember that MiKTeX was once included to the
installer because we needed a method to setup and repair broken TeX
distribution settings. That users broke their MiKTeX or TeXLive happened
often and I did not have the time to explain the same things how to
repair/use correct settings again and again. (You can look in the
mailing list archives how many mails I wrote over the years addressing
these issues.) Thus I developed together with the MiKTeX maintainer an
API that the installer could set up everything. Moreover it enabled to
repair broken systems just by installing LyX again.
So kicking this out is a nightmare for a new potential maintainer
because he is in the state I was before I added MiKTeX to the installer.
And I never said MiKTeX is the greatest TeX distro. It is definitely not
and recently it was quite buggy but it provides methods to set it up at
install time.

However, please sign your installer using Microsoft's signtool. This is
important because Microsoft made his SmartScreen filter recently more
aggressive. This filter is not very smart and it sucks. Nevertheless, we
have to accept that it currently tells users that installing LyX could
be harmful and one has to explicitly say "install it anyway" to get LyX
installed. One reason is that executables should have a digital
signature. With a signature SmartScreen will shout anyway but "learn"
much faster that LyX is not dangerous.
You can use the self-signature file I set up for LyX:
https://github.com/donovaly/LyXWinInstaller/blob/master/LyXorg.pfx

regards Uwe


Re: Are you going to offer new versions of LyXWinInsaller?

2019-04-03 Thread Uwe Stöhr

Am 02.04.2019 um 03:02 schrieb Richard Kimberly Heck:


You see why I insist that proper Windows support is only possible if the
whole process, compilation, installer building and testing the
installation is run on different Win systems.


No, I don't see why it matters whether we compile LyX on Windows or on
Linux, and nothing you said seems to address that.


I just gave you two examples why only installing LyX on a Windows PC
could unveil problems:

- the installer must assure that LyX is not currently running when
installing. The plugin that should do this fails now since the latest
Win 10 update from March.
Yes, the plugin was already declared deprecated but we both missed this.
We are all humans so only frequent testing on different Windows systems
will uncover such cases.

- the other example was the installation of LyX. There was a nasty bug
in MiKTeX that made it crash when LyX's configure.py was run. This was
no LyX bug but for the LyX users the effect was the same - LyX became
unusable for those who had MiKTeX already installed.
I noticed this during my tests, informed the MiKTeX developer and he
fixed it within 2 days.

So if the goal is still to deliver a working LyX system it is not enough
to compile it and its installer. One must test the different components
on different Windows systems.

One more example: ImageMagick releases made frequently problems in the
past. Some released had general problems with EPS and PDF images. How
will you see this if not testing on Windows? The crux is that the users
can't know what is causing a problem. They just see e,g, that some
images won't be displayed within LyX. Therefore I run different image
tests for every installer I release, on Win 7 and Win 10. Sometimes only
the combination of a certain Ghostscript and ImageMagick release caused
issues.

I fixed the particular NSIS plugin problem now in the installer for
FreeCAD by using the plugin "nsProcess". I'll backport this to the
LyXWinInstaller and you should do this for your installer as well.

regards Uwe


Re: Are you going to offer new versions of LyXWinInsaller?

2019-04-01 Thread Uwe Stöhr

Am 01.04.2019 um 18:22 schrieb Richard Kimberly Heck:


I use gcc in a cross-platform environment. I.e., I compile for Windows
on Linux.


Hmm, but how do you check what fits to the different Windows systems?
For example last weekend I discovered that the FindProc NSIS plugin that
normally detects that no LyX.exe is already running is working fine on
Windows 7 and older Win 10 but not on the latest Win 10.

The plugin was not compiled using MSVC and I don't know if one can rely
on GCC that programs compiled with it will run also on latest and future
Win 10 versions other than running LyX under Win 10. (Then one can
directly compile LyX under Windows.)

You see why I insist that proper Windows support is only possible if the
whole process, compilation, installer building and testing the
installation is run on different Win systems.

regards Uwe


Re: about the Win installer

2019-04-01 Thread Uwe Stöhr

On 01.04.2019 02:29, Uwe Stöhr wrote:


Am 26.03.2019 um 21:03 schrieb Richard Kimberly Heck:

 > > Why is this insulting?


If you can't understand that, then there's nothing anyone can do to

help you.


I forgot to say that it hurt me a lot to hear that after more than 10
years contributing to LyX on Windows my expertise count nothing. So all
my countless hours of work were for nothing with the state we currently
have.

So much for insults.

Uwe



[announce] new location and version of the LyXWinInstaller

2019-03-31 Thread Uwe Stöhr

Dear LyXers,

as you might have noticed, I don't provide any official LyX for Windows
installers since a while due to fundamental differences with other
developers how LyX should be installed under Windows.

Due to requests from LyX users I provided now an installer for LyX 2.3.2
with the old functionality that allows to get a fully functional LyX
directly after running the installer.
You can download the installer either from here:
https://github.com/donovaly/LyXWinInstaller/releases
or
http://ftp.lyx.de/LyXWinInstaller/
or
https://sourceforge.net/projects/lyxwininstaller/files/LyXWinInstaller/

These are the changed to my last installer which I built for LyX 2.3.0:

- installs LyX 2.3.2
- since this installer now there is no longer the need to update MiKTeX
- new dictionary for Georgian
- updated thesaurus for Ukrainian
- updated spell checker dictionaries for English, Turkmen and Ukrainian
- removed support for TeXLive 2014
- removed support for MiKTeX 2.8
- updated to MiKTeX 2.9 build 7021
- updated to Python 2.7.16
- updated to ImageMagick 7.0.8-27
- updated to Ghostscript 9.26
- updated to NSIS 3.0.4
- updated to Qt 5.9.7

regards Uwe


Re: about the Win installer

2019-03-31 Thread Uwe Stöhr

Am 26.03.2019 um 21:03 schrieb Richard Kimberly Heck:

> > Why is this insulting?
>
> If you can't understand that, then there's nothing anyone can do to
help you.

I think I made clear what I meant, if you are insulted by any criticism
then I can't help you.


But you never asked me for help but did everything on your own.


Excuse me, but you disappeared after you didn't get your way. There
wouldn't be an official Windows installer if I hadn't build one.


Sorry, but you defined my installer as not being the official one
anymore. So you cannot blame me for this.


Yes, I think so because otherwise why was it for you that important to
make decisions for Windows users? You don't use Windows for your daily
tasks so you could let things be as they have been developed together
with the Win user community over the years. You wanted to change it
nevertheless so there must have been a personal benefit for you.


That is just silly. And offensive.


Why is this silly? In February I used your installer to install LyX
2.3.2 and ended up with a completely broken system. I did not touch my
LyX and also not MiKTeX for months and just wanted to upgrade from LyX
2.3.0 to 2.3.2. MiKTeX was crashing during when the installer run LyX's
reconfiguration.
So why is it insulting that I am not amused that you decided what is
good for Windows users but now Windows users have to suffer?

I was removed but now LyX has an installer that break existing
installations on some systems and nobody cares. Do you regularly give
the installer a try on different Win systems with TeXLive and MiKTeX?
Apparently not. But then you cannot expect many Windows users for LyX. I
as expert needed several hours to find out what is going one and you
cannot expect this from average users too.
Yes MiKTeX has become annoying since about a year but since TeXLive
doesn't allow to install all necessary packages for a fully functional
LyX with the installer (at least not with TeXLive 2017, the last version
I tested), there is no better way to provide an installer where you can
just click a few times OK and Next and get a fully functional LyX.

regards Uwe


Re: about the Win installer

2019-03-26 Thread Uwe Stöhr

On 26.03.2019 03:55, Richard Kimberly Heck wrote:


That has not been true for a while now. It is very much not true now
that we've shifted lyx.org to a much more reliable server.


Every server can stop working. Therefore having mirror is always a good
idea.


It has been said before, but I'll say it again: It's insulting for those
of us who put in as much time on LyX development as we do to be told
that we don't care about the needs of average users and only do what
benefits us.


Why is this insulting? I invested many years in developing LyX and I was
told frequently that I was mostly implementing things I need personally.
This criticism was right and not insulting. At first I implemented e.g.
math stuff since as physics student I needed formulas all the time. It
is always a problem for a developer to focus on personal needs and I am
no exception in this respect.


I mean, shit, do you have any idea how many hours I spent
figuring out how to create a Windows installer?


But you never asked me for help but did everything on your own. This is
no collaborative development. I think I also spent much more time on the
installer than you, so invested time is no sensible argument.


Do you think that
benefited me personally, or 'expert users', in any way at all?


Yes, I think so because otherwise why was it for you that important to
make decisions for Windows users? You don't use Windows for your daily
tasks so you could let things be as they have been developed together
with the Win user community over the years. You wanted to change it
nevertheless so there must have been a personal benefit for you.


What there is here is (at most) a disagreement about what 'average
users' need or want, but for some reason you've appointed yourself as
the spokesman for 'average users' and indict the rest of us as selfish.


Let's ask what an installer is for. With your knowledge it is an easy
task to set up a fully functional LyX. You could extract its files from
a ZIP, install TeXLive, ImageMagick, Python and friends and can start
writing.
So an installer is for users who don't know what has to be setup in
order to get a fully functional LyX. All others don't really need an
installer. When I started with LyX there was no installer and I
nevertheless could use LyX on Windows.
Now you have an installer that requires more knowledge many users have
so - to use you wording - it is selfish to make decisions on personal needs.

Now take for example the laboratory guys in my company. They have to
write a laboratory journal and LyX would be the perfect program to do
this. But they are excellent laboratory workers no computer experts. You
cannot expect them to learn in advance what a package and a distribution is.
They use LibreOffice instead and this is sad for LyX. I mean if LyX does
not try to attract more users by offering tools that make life as easy
as possible I don't understand why I should develop it. Yes, here I am
selfish because it makes me happy if people to use what I develop.


I got the feeling that most core LyX developers are working at
universities and institutes while the majority of users have business
jobs where time matters.


If so, then maybe they should do something to support development. Like
pay for it.


Why? Users have various choices what to use and it is understandable to
choose programs making life more easy.
I also worked for companies that regularly spend money to Wikipedia,
LibreOffice etc. because their employees benefit from it. At first
companies need to see that a program/service is useful.
I also understand that private persons don't spend in most cases no
money as they don't have much of it and also LyX is no foundation to get
some money back with the tax repayments for charitable contributions.

regards Uwe


Re: [LyX/master] Win installer: fix bug on init

2019-03-26 Thread Uwe Stöhr

On 26.03.2019 04:01, Richard Kimberly Heck wrote:


-!define ImageMagickVersion "7.0.7"
+!define ImageMagickVersion "7.0.8"


Please do not change such things on your own. I will change them when I
update such things in my own build tree.


So this is a new rule? In the past the consensus was to use up to date
third-party applications. Imagemagick 7.0.8 was released in June 2018:
https://imagemagick.org/script/changelog.php

Users should benefit from a recent ImageMagick since dozens of bugs have
been fixed that could affect users. Therefore we should not rely on what
a certain person has installed on his system.

regards Uwe


Re: about the Win installer

2019-03-25 Thread Uwe Stöhr

Am 11.02.2019 um 06:10 schrieb Richard Kimberly Heck:


Yes, we decided no longer to offer a bundled installer. That was a
decision we made as a group.


My point of view is: A group of non-Windows developers (at least not on
a daily basis) and with lots of background knowledge made a decision
what is good for Windows users that are no developers and have no
background knowledge.


however, and we have not heard any complaints from users.


This is a bad argument because as it is LyX many will fail to install it
and if you need half an hour just to read and learn how to install, you
won't use it.
The main competitor for free writing software is LibreOffice and for
this you don't reed in advance, just click a few times in the installer
you you get a ready to use program and can focus on learning the program
itself rather than to learn how it works in its background.
I mean when LyX was founded the goal was to hide LaTeX - to avoid that
users need to learn that much before they can start writing.


I see you re-introduced the mirror code, as well. The plan was to
download those files from our own server---we have these somewhere on
lyx.org---but I had not found time yet to do that.


I don't understand your rationale because the mirror feature was there
for good reasons. LyX.org was quite often dead or slow and users needed
to be able to get dictionaries anyway. Thus long ago we made the
decision to use SourceForge's mirrors to have online dictionaries in
every case.


I think we were all sorry that happened,


Have you had a look at the download statistics? Does LyX got more
downloads than before or less? That is what counts, not what we
developers like or not. Yes, providing a user-friendly installer is
stress but when I want to get users I cannot just do what pleases me as
developer the most.

But that is my main problem with LyX - the development focus on
developers needs, not on the needs of average users. Average users don't
need a dozen more expert features every release but a better workflow
allowing them to write more in shorter time, to collaborate with
colleagues, good and up-to date documentation etc.

I got the feeling that most core LyX developers are working at
universities and institutes while the majority of users have business
jobs where time matters. When you have to deliver a documentation of a
device, a SOP for your colleagues, a project report etc. you don't have
time to fiddle around with packages but must be ready within the time
frame your boss defined. One could work everywhere as long as one
understands that the vast majority of persons writing texts are no
computer specialists. LyX drifted in my experience bit by bit towards
pleasing at first users with computer background knowledge instead of
thinking what average users needs and how more users can be attracted.
Developers preferably put in what they need personally.

regards Uwe


Re: convertDefault.py is broken under python 3

2019-03-20 Thread Uwe Stöhr

Am 18.03.2019 um 02:31 schrieb Scott Kostyshak:


Bump. Did we get this figured out?


Well, the -depth8 restriction for ImageMagick can definitely go and i
now just did this. Nevertheless convertDefault.py is broken under python
3.7.x

regards Uwe


Re: about the Win installer

2019-02-28 Thread Uwe Stöhr

On 28.02.2019 08:38, Scott Kostyshak wrote:


I confirm that after updating TL 2018, I can now compile the Embedded
Objects manual. Uwe let me know that the bug was in arydshln 1.75 and
since last weekend the new version 1.76 of this package is available
where the bug is fixed.


For the records: The arydshln developer explained me the issue was
triggered by an update of the longtable package. It changed the table
line handling so that arydhsln's connection to the line handling did not
work anymore.

regards Uwe


InstantPreview fails with Python 3

2019-02-10 Thread Uwe Stöhr

InstantPreview fails with Python 3.7.2 and I cannot figure out why. In
the console I see:

- graphics\PreviewLoader.cpp (781):
PreviewLoader::finishedInProgress(1): processing failed for python -tt
$$s/scripts/lyxpreview2bitmap.py --png
"C:/Users/User/AppData/Local/Temp/lyx_tmpdir.PlMVrEJL4248/lyx_tmpbuf0/lyxpreviewZb4248.tex"
--dpi 115 --fg 00 --bg faf0e6 --bibtex="bibtex"

I tried to run the lyxpreview2bitmap.py manually in a console and then
get the error that it cannot find gswin32c or gswin64c. But the path to
it is correctly set in the LyX preferences.

I also could not find out how to tell the script a path to gswin32c.
Therefore I could not investigate further.
José, could you maybe have a look and tell me at least how to specify
the path to gswin32c when executing the script in a console?

thanks and regards
Uwe


about the Win installer

2019-02-10 Thread Uwe Stöhr

Dear LyXers,

I have been away for some months because of health problems, new job
etc. but also because I don't use LyX anymore since a while because all
documents I have to work with need collaborative access. And others
don't like to collaborate with me with LyX but with Office365 and the
like. (Personally I switched to LibreOffice because I can then convert
to .docx if even .odt is not allowed in a project.)

Meanwhile I got frequent requests to provide a new installer because
there are problems. Today I found time and indeed there are different
issues that I will try to fix.
As first step I updated all libraries and commit some uncontroversial
things.

The good news is that with the current MiKTeX there is no longer a need
to update the MiKTeX update mechanism, since all users will already have it.
Unfortunately MiKTeX is crashing during the run of LyX's configure
script under some circumstances. Then the users will get a
non-functional LyX. I reported this already.

A problem is that convertDefault.py fails under Python 3, see my last post.

Another problem is that InstantPreview fails with Python 3 and I cannot
figure out why, see my next post.

A minor issue is that the EmbeddedObjects manual can currently not be
compiled because of a bug in a LaTeX package. I reported this already.

Another minor thing s that the UserGuide that comes with 2.3.2 has
change tracking on. This should not happen. I'll merge these changes to
the other UserGuide files as I have done for years. After that I won't
have time to work on the LyX docs.

Now the controversial part:
In the installer I see that you removed support for MiKTeX. You require
now that the users have enough knowledge to set up MiKTeX in advance
before installing MiKTeX. This is not the case, especially not for
newbies. Moreover you removed code that setup MiKTeX for LyX. That is
something I cannot accept because then LyX is not fully functional.
Users need a lot of knowledge to get then all features to work.

I also see that there is not much maintenance for the installer. The
libraries, dictionaries, download mirror etc. need care. I started some
update action today.

However, I still follow the track that users deserve a LyX installation
that does not require background knowledge before they start using LyX.
For the first installation everything must work out of the box. And this
does not work for the installer I can download from lyx.org.
I don't want to fight again. It hurt me the last time a lot that devs
who don't use LyX under Windows for production/daily told me what should
be right for average Windows users and that the actions the installer
did successfully for about 10 years should not be done anymore to suit
the needs of expert users.
Since we could not find consensus I went away.

regards Uwe


convertDefault.py is broken under python 3

2019-02-10 Thread Uwe Stöhr

Today I tried LyX 2.3.2 with Python 3.7.2 and found that all image
conversions failed. I investigated and I found out that this commit
introduced the problem:
5b160e82

Line 38 fails since there is no .decode() for strings.
Also line 35 fails but strangely not line 29.

Attached is the diff to get it at least to work.
José, could you please have a look?

Besides this I don't understand why we limit the depth for image
conversions to 8 bit:
sopts = "-depth 8"

I cannot see a reason for this limitation. So if there is no longer one,
sopts should be kept empty in line 22.

thanks and regards
Uwe
diff --git 
"a/C:\\Users\\USti\\AppData\\Local\\Temp\\TortoiseGit\\convertDefault-4162ed1.000.py"
 "b/D:\\LyXGit\\Master\\lib\\scripts\\convertDefault.py"
index 8678965013..3a2cd645aa 100644
--- 
"a/C:\\Users\\USti\\AppData\\Local\\Temp\\TortoiseGit\\convertDefault-4162ed1.000.py"
+++ "b/D:\\LyXGit\\Master\\lib\\scripts\\convertDefault.py"
@@ -32,10 +32,10 @@ if fout.close() != None:
 # caution: windows has a convert.exe for converting file systems
 command = 'convert'
 fout = os.popen('convert -version 2>&1')
-output = fout.readline()
+#output = fout.readline()
 fout.close()
 if not PY2:
-output = output.decode()
+output = output
 
 version = re_version.match(output)
 
@@ -59,7 +59,7 @@ else:
 # IM >= 5.5.8 separates options for source and target files
 # See http://www.imagemagick.org/Usage/basics/#why
 if im or gm:
-sopts = "-depth 8"
+sopts = ""
 topts = ""
 elif sys.platform == 'darwin':
 command = 'lyxconvert'


possible loss of data warning in current 2.3.x branch

2019-02-10 Thread Uwe Stöhr

Compiling the current 2.3.x branch gives me this warning

D:\LyXGit\2.3.x\src\RowPainter.cpp(528): warning C4244: 'argument':
conversion from 'double' to 'int', possible loss of data
[D:\LyXGit\2.3.x\compile-2015\src\LyX.vcxproj]
D:\LyXGit\2.3.x\src\RowPainter.cpp(530): warning C4244: 'argument':
conversion from 'double' to 'int', possible loss of data
[D:\LyXGit\2.3.x\compile-2015\src\LyX.vcxproj]

This should be fixed in my opinion.

regards Uwe


missing file in 2.3.2 tarball

2019-02-10 Thread Uwe Stöhr

I compiled LyX 2.3.2 from the tarball and get one CMake error that the
file lyx.ico is missing.

I could fix it by putting it into the folder ~\development\cmake.

Either the file is missing or Cmake needs to be adapted that there is no
longer this file.

regards Uwe


Workaround for: WARNING: updating LaTeX or LyX under Windows will currently break LaTeX installation

2018-09-05 Thread Uwe Stöhr
As of today the update servers are working again. However, one needs a 
workaround because the buggy DLL of MiKTeX prevents the updates from 
being applied.


it seems that the bug affects all users of Windows 7 while Win 10 is not 
affected. For the affected users there is a workaround but you need 
admin permissions and some knowledge:


- open a Windows console as admin (type in "cmd" in the Windows Start 
field, and right-click on it to run it with admin privileges)

- execute these 2 commands subsequently:
initexmf --admin --update-fndb
and
initexmf --admin --mklinks --force
- close the Windows console
- now start the MiKTeX console
- choose there to restart with admin privileges
- check for updates and if there are any apply them

From my point of view I see no other option than to provide a new LyX 
for Windows installer that repairs broken system by executing these 
commands in the background after LyX was installed. This way users with 
problems can just run the Win installer again and get a working LyX back 
in a minute without the need to know about console commands etc.


@developers: Maybe now you see that the Win installer must do more and 
forcing a MiKTeX update is necessary as you can see in this case. We 
cannot say "not our fault". Yes, LyX is not to blame but what matters is 
if users can use LyX. In my case I wanted to write an urgent letter with 
LyX but could not use it and had to use LibreOffice instead.


regards Uwe


Re: WARNING: updating LaTeX or LyX under Windows will currently break LaTeX installation

2018-09-04 Thread Uwe Stöhr

Am 29.08.2018 um 03:30 schrieb Uwe Stöhr:


I hope this issue will be fixed soon and report back.


Status report: The problem persists. The fix for MiKTeX was already 
released but the main update server of MiKTeX is down. One cannot 
retrieve any update yet, no matter what update server is chosen.


regards Uwe


WARNING: updating LaTeX or LyX under Windows will currently break LaTeX installation

2018-08-28 Thread Uwe Stöhr

Dear LyX Windows users,

yesterday I noticed a severe bug in the LaTeX system "MiKTeX" that LyX 
is usually using under Windows. The problem is that if you

- upgrade MiKTeX or LyX
or
- install a new LaTeX package
or
- refresh the MiKTeX package database

you will end up in a broken LaTeX with error messages like "unknown 
procedure entry point".


I experimented around for more than 2 hours but could not find a 
workaround once LaTeX is broken. Even a reinstallation of LyX or MiKTeX 
doesn't help since the result are always broken DLLs and I could not 
find a way to prevent this.


Therefore I strongly recommend not to change anything in your LaTeX 
setup nor to compile LyX documents that might use special LaTeX packages 
hat are not yet installed on your PC.

Also don't install another version of LyX or reinstall LyX.

I hope this issue will be fixed soon and report back.

regards Uwe


7 compilation errors in current master

2018-07-27 Thread Uwe Stöhr
After a long time I could compile LyX. While the 2.3.x branch works 
well, I get these compilation errors in current master:


  D:\LyXGit\Master\src\insets\InsetTabular.cpp(6575): error C2664: 
'void lyx::swap(lyx::Counters &,lyx::Counters &)': cannot convert 
argument 1 from 'lyx::Inset::std::col_type' to 'lyx::Counters &' 
[D:\LyXGit\Master\compile-2015\src\insets\insets.vcxproj]
  D:\LyXGit\Master\src\insets\InsetTabular.cpp(6580): error C2664: 
'void lyx::swap(lyx::Counters &,lyx::Counters &)': cannot convert 
argument 1 from 'lyx::Inset::std::row_type' to 'lyx::Counters &' 
[D:\LyXGit\Master\compile-2015\src\insets\insets.vcxproj]


  D:\LyXGit\Master\src\mathed\InsetMathHull.cpp(1298): error C2664: 
'void lyx::swap(lyx::Counters &,lyx::Counters &)': cannot convert 
argument 1 from 'lyx::InsetLabel *' to 'lyx::Counters &' 
[D:\LyXGit\Master\compile-2015\src\mathed\mathed.vcxproj]
  D:\LyXGit\Master\src\mathed\InsetMathHull.cpp(1317): error C2664: 
'void lyx::swap(lyx::Counters &,lyx::Counters &)': cannot convert 
argument 1 from 'lyx::InsetMathHull::Numbered' to 'lyx::Counters &' 
[D:\LyXGit\Master\compile-2015\src\mathed\mathed.vcxproj]
  D:\LyXGit\Master\src\mathed\InsetMathHull.cpp(1319): error C2664: 
'void lyx::swap(lyx::Counters &,lyx::Counters &)': cannot convert 
argument 1 from 'lyx::InsetLabel *' to 'lyx::Counters &' 
[D:\LyXGit\Master\compile-2015\src\mathed\mathed.vcxproj]
  D:\LyXGit\Master\src\mathed\InsetMathHull.cpp(1329): error C2664: 
'void lyx::swap(lyx::Counters &,lyx::Counters &)': cannot convert 
argument 1 from 'lyx::InsetMathHull::Numbered' to 'lyx::Counters &' 
[D:\LyXGit\Master\compile-2015\src\mathed\mathed.vcxproj]
  D:\LyXGit\Master\src\mathed\InsetMathHull.cpp(1331): error C2664: 
'void lyx::swap(lyx::Counters &,lyx::Counters &)': cannot convert 
argument 1 from 'lyx::InsetLabel *' to 'lyx::Counters &' 
[D:\LyXGit\Master\compile-2015\src\mathed\mathed.vcxproj]


Could you please have a look?

thanks and regards
Uwe


Re: LyX Windows Installer, Final?

2018-07-16 Thread Uwe Stöhr

Am 14.07.2018 um 19:05 schrieb Richard Kimberly Heck:


Is there a reason why Qt 5.10 instead of 5.11 was used? Qt 5.11 seems
to have a nice fix for windows users:
https://bugreports.qt.io/browse/QTBUG-43190


Qt 5.10 is what mingw currently provides on Fedora.


Are you saying you create a Windows release on a Linux system? That is 
no suitable way of providing Windows build of LyX because you cannot see 
corner cases like missing files, wrong registry paths, leftovers from 
previous LyX installations, problems as result of interference of 
different installed LyX versions on the same PC etc.

Please build and test directly on a Windows PC.

Also I strongly recommend to use Qt's LTS versions, not the latest. My 
experience is that there have always been issues after upgrading to a 
new Qt version.


I use for my installer Qt 5.9.4 because this is a well tested 
LTS-version and LyX doesn't use any new features of Qt 5.10 and 5.11.


regards Uwe


Re: LyX Windows Installer, Final?

2018-07-16 Thread Uwe Stöhr

Am 07.07.2018 um 00:07 schrieb Richard Kimberly Heck:


Finally, there was the 'style' issue. We now install the
qwindowsvistastyle.dll file, as Enrico suggested. Apparently, it is new
in Qt 5.10 that these are separate files [1].


Why did you use Qt 5.10. We once agreed with Scott to use LTS versions 
of Qt for our releases. Qt 5.9 is still the latest LTS.


Upgrading to a new Qt version often had some side effects thus I had to 
perform a lot of tests.


regards Uwe





Re: thoughts about LyX's future and proposals

2018-07-16 Thread Uwe Stöhr

Am 10.07.2018 um 00:19 schrieb Uwe Stöhr:

As result I wrote this lengthy mail and hope you read it till 
the end where I make some proposals:


Obviously nobody has any comments on my thoughts about LyX's future. 
That is sad because I only got few private mails as replies stating that 
indeed the missing fileformat conversion capabilities are a real problem 
in real life.



So what can be done? In my opinion, we should
- define the goal of LyX together with our users. Maybe the result is to 
hide background stuff, maybe it is the opposite. Whatever it might be, 
that should be the base for future development.
- setup a "board of development" that take care of user feedback and who 
define the things the next version of LyX should have. Such a board 
should only be 50% consist of developers. Translators are not treated as 
developers. The idea is to see what people really need and to organize 
its development so that several developers develop a certain feature.


I only made these 2 proposals and thought they are worth to be considered.
It is OK not to agree, but what about other ideas or do you think we 
should just continue as we did the last months? I mean criticism should 
be constructive. So I would her your ideas for future development.


thanks and regards
Uwe


Re: about LyXWinInstaller

2018-07-16 Thread Uwe Stöhr

Am 09.07.2018 um 23:41 schrieb Richard Kimberly Heck:

At first apologies. My shoulder still doesn't allow me to spend much 
time on the PC.



Actually, no, that's certainly not my focus, and I don't think it's the
focus of the rest of the team, either. The only substantial change I
made to the official installer, besides fixing various bugs (such as
incorrect URLs for downloading dictionaries),


What was incorrect? I just checked and the download links still work 
with the installer I released.



was the one just
mentioned.


Well, that was why I almost left LyX. You think you know better what 
makes sense for average Windows users. I am tired and won't discuss further.


regards Uwe


thoughts about LyX's future and proposals

2018-07-09 Thread Uwe Stöhr

Dear LyX colleagues,

apologies for being off so long I had an accident hindering me to use 
keyboards. However, this gave me some time to think about LyX in 
general. As result I wrote this lengthy mail and hope you read it till 
the end where I make some proposals:


- I was developing LyX for about 15 years. I always focused on 
convenience. Since it took me hours to get a working LyX 1.3 
installation I once started the development of a proper installer.

- the installer was a success and more people used LyX under Windows.
- I gave lectures about LyX at my university, tried to introduce LyX to 
friends and family members. Nevertheless the success was "modest" even 
under my students.
- I learned bit by bit what people really need and bit by bit I lost 
confidence that LyX can suit their needs. One problem is that we as the 
LyX team never made a market analysis. I first started to understand 
real-life for software after leaving the university. In my experience 
these are the two important points of what a writing software must offer 
to be used by non-university people:


* keep it simple: nobody has time to learn about the background of a 
program. That is not ignorance but lack of time. All the time we have to 
deliver things in timeframes defined by others (bosses or customers). So 
a typical task is "write an instruction manual within 2 days". How you 
do that doesn't matter, the deadline is the important thing. I never 
thought about how images spell-checking etc. are handled in Word and 
LibreOffice. I just use them because they allow me to deliver before the 
deadline. That makes my a typical user - I do nothing more with Word and 
LibreOffice than to use them. I don't have to know about their internals 
and that makes these programs attractive to me.


As consequence I did not only set up the Win installer to hide 
background stuff but I also added support for as many languages to LyX 
as possible. I spent a lot of time with this and also with the 
developers of spell-checking libraries, of third-party programs like 
MiKTeX and even with font designers.


* compatibility with other file formats: a major task is to collaborate 
with others. That means different persons with different hardware 
sitting in different cities or countries have to collaborate by editing 
the same text. Outside the university you cannot choose what program you 
can use. Every project has its own software requirements. Therefore you 
always have a required file format in which you have to deliver your 
work. That is for research projects often OpenDocument in industry 
projects in most cases Office Open XML.
For longer and structured texts (LyX's core competence) I never had the 
case that only one persons is writing this. I am now away from the 
university for 7 years and have insights in several industry branches, 
automotive, packaging, machine building etc. I was involved in small and 
big research projects up to EU level.


LyX dos not really provide the compatibility feature. As consequence I 
added basic support for file conversions via Pandoc. I also spent some 
time to improve Pandoc.


The original idea of LyX was to hide the LaTeX stuff and provide a 
program with which users who just want or have to use can focus on 
writing without being forced to learn background stuff about LaTeX etc. 
In my opinion the development of LyX looses this goal. More and more 
expert things are build in to LyX while the basic stuff is not provided. 
For example:
* Many documents are not typesetable in some languages like e.g. Arabic 
because there are no fonts covering all characters. Ask e.g. Hatim how 
often he has to do weird font stuff to get e.g. the LyX's docs 
translated to Arabic. That must be improved or LyX can't be used by 
average people for Arabic, Urdu etc. LaTeX allows font changes but LyX 
is lacking support for them.
* the file format compatibility of LyX is really bad. There is so much 
more we can do. I am now fully convinced that if LyX is not able soon to 
get a proper result for the formats OpenDocument and HTML it will loose 
most of its userbase and won't get new users. It is a no-go that e.g. 
the unmaintained eLyXer gives still much better results in HTML than 
LyX's own engine in terms of readability of images and tables.


I could add some more things. But this is not my point. I see that most 
LyX developers only code for their pleasure not for the things the 
potential customers need the most. I don't want to blame anybody but I 
want to make clear that we all need to improve our sights to the real 
world. There is a good reason why more than 90 % of PC users use 
Windows. For example I also made my step out of the Windows world to 
understand how it is under Linux. I found out that it does change the 
view on the treatment of third-party programs but the main deficiencies 
of LyX remain: missing file format conversion and simplicity.
Up to now me only developed things some of use needed for 

about LyXWinInstaller

2018-07-09 Thread Uwe Stöhr

Am 09.07.2018 um 20:16 schrieb Richard Kimberly Heck:


Due to a bug in MiKTeX, installation of LyX 2.3.0 can sometimes
cause the MiKTeX installation to be corrupted. We highly recommend
that MiKTeX users update to the latest version *before* installing LyX
2.3.0. (If you run into problems, the solution will be to uninstall MiKTeX
and then re-install.)


Dear LyX colleagues,

at first apologies for being off so long I had an accident hindering me 
to use keyboards.


I missed of course the recent LyX development. Nevertheless I explained 
several times until May why such an announcement breaks the fundamental 
understanding I have for the LyXWinInstaller. As I already wrote, my 
goal is that everybody is able to get a fully functional LyX by using 
the installer. My 70+ year old mother was the first person reporting me 
a problem and as consequence I found a big bug in MiKTeX. That was fixed 
long ago and with the installer for LyX 2.3.0 my mother got her LyX 
repaired. So perfect for me but not for you. Now you tell people to 
update MiKTeX. How should they do this? Does my mother know what MiKTeX 
is? Of course not.
I visited her recently and told her about. We tried tried to update 
MiKTeX on her old PC (where there is still the old MiKTeX from 2017). At 
first she failed but also for me running the MiKTeX update service did 
not lead to the current MiKTeX (seems to be another bug of the old 
MiKTeX setup). So your announcement is not helpful for average users.


I took always care for average users because experienced users know how 
to fix problems in there own by googling, writing mails to the lists 
etc. Average users are just users without all the background knowledge 
one needs to update e.g. MiKTeX.
I understood that your focus is to please experienced users. Since I 
cannot live with such a decision that would my own mother left alone 
with problems she doesn't understand and cannot solve, I decided to 
release LyXWinInstaller as my own project.

I hope that this way LyX can also be used by average users under Windows.

regards Uwe


[ANNOUNCE] LyXWinInstaller for 2.3.0

2018-07-09 Thread Uwe Stöhr

Dear LyX users,

despite unannounced until today there is an Windows installer available 
for LyX 2.3.0 since March:

https://sourceforge.net/projects/lyxwininstaller/files/LyXWinInstaller/
and
http://ftp.lyx.de/LyXWinInstaller/LyX2.3.0/

Due to some disagreements with some LyX developers, this will not be the 
official LyX for Windows installer. However, it works and was already 
downloaded more than 1000 times since March.


Due to the disagreement with the understanding how LyX under Windows 
should be developed, I will provide the LyXWinInstaller as my private 
project and support it of course.


The LyXWinInstaller will take care of everything that provides you a 
fully functional LyX. That means LyXWinInstaller will take care of all 
third-party programs LyX is using in the background (MiKTeX, TeXLive, 
Python, ImageMagick, Inkscape etc.) and will configure and update them 
for you. The goal is, as for the last years where LyXWinInstaller was 
the official LyX for Windows installer, to provide an installer where 
90% of the users just have to click few times OK and Nextbut to get a 
fully functional LyX but that also gives some freedom for the 10 % power 
users (to deselect third-party programs etc.).


As I understood it, there will be a new installer for LyX under Windows 
from the LyX developers based on the code of LyXWinInstaller. I can and 
will not give support for this installer because I was not involved in 
this development.


regards
Uwe Stöhr




Re: Update on 2.3.0 situation and Windows-specific issues

2018-05-21 Thread Uwe Stöhr

Am 14.05.2018 um 04:11 schrieb Richard Kimberly Heck:


The ONLY question at the moment is
about a warning
dialog at the outset:


Yes. and i made clear why I won't take the responsibility to do this. 
You try to please the, let's say 5 % of our expert users who might have 
some reasons not to update MiKTeX. But as i told you, these people can 
already do this and the installer already respects their decision.


> As JMarc mentioned, he uses Windows all the time

JMarc knows how to act if e.g. MiKTeX 32 bit was installed as admin and 
MiKTeX 64bit over it only with user privileges? This would be fine, 
because I don't want to be the only one taking care of the installer.



I understand that you think this would confuse 'ordinary users'. But
even if you are
right, then (a) we can figure out some way to help them and (b) that is
out-weighed
by the fact that updating MikTeX can cause serious problems for some
users. That is
the 'harm' we've been talking about. Breaking people's systems is not a
triival matter,


Sorry, but exactly sentences like these make me angry. Updating the 
package handling system does not break peoples system! I hate to hear 
such claims. During the last 2 months where the installer is online more 
than 1000 users downloaded and most probably used it. Did you hear 
something that it broke their system? I only got feedback that it was 
broken during the usage of LyX and whenever I sent them my installer 
they could repair their system.



as I have José, and many others have said. Even *the MikTeX maintainer*
has made it clear that we should not update MikTeX without asking permission 
from
the user.


Where has he stated this? Why did he not stated this to me? However i 
spent much, much time and more many users there is no other reason than 
to update MiKTeX. So why should we offer them to deny this? This makes 
no sense.



Why is my proposal not taken into account: Not having MiKTeX updated
is an expert thing. Therefore only experts should be bothered with
this. experts can read the announcement.


Because no one reads ANNOUNCE, even expert users. And by the time the
update is done, the damage is done.


Aha. But because the 5 % expert users don't read announcements I should 
bother 95 % of the users with a message they won't understand and when 
they therefore make a false decision they end up with an unusable LyX?



Average user can misunderstand it with a probability of 50%. Those who
misunderstood it and denied the update can end up with an unusable LyX.


No, they do not. If they deny, then NOTHING HAPPENS.


Damn, that is not true! Or why do you think I am so insisting here? I 
got reports about this, I could verify the problems and that is why I 
got active.
If they don't update and later on trigger the update or new installation 
of a package they end up with a completely broken LyX/LaTeX. Therefore 
we cannot allow that nothing happens.


> I also understand that there are other things that could happen, that
have nothing to do with the LyX installer, that would break people's 
MikTeX installations. That is unfortunate, but not our problem


Sorry again, but this is so arrogant! Reading statements like this make 
me really wonder if I should stay with LyX. In my world people are 
users. They just use programs. Nobody cares what is going on behind the 
scenes. Either LyX works or not. If not they will look for another 
program. There are plenty of alternatives on the market for free too. So 
either the installer takes care that LyX will work under all 
circumstances or people won't use it. They will write in forums that LyX 
is crap or similar and we loose users. Because again, users just use. Or 
do you really expect users to learn that LyX bases on other program? 
)LibreOffice does too and recently I used it almost daily. I don't know 
anything about its background (how the spell checker works, how images 
are input etc.).)


> then there are users whose MiKTeX will never get updated, and
then their systems will be broken. Maybe so. But that, again, is not our 
problem.


What? Really? If this is your opinion, I am out. I never treated users 
like this. I tried to respect users, I spent hours to help users because 
I know how it is if you e.g. prepared you master's thesis and during the 
fine-tuning for the layout you end up with a broken LyX. Then you panic. 
And when will most users trigger package updates or new package 
installation? - during the final layout process. Your professor e.g. 
requires TOCs for every chapter or whatever. So you insert the 
corresponding code and this will trigger in the background the 
installation of a new package. And those who installed MiKTeX in the 
months around September 2017 - January 2018 will then end up with a 
completely unusably LyX.
Leaving users lost like this despite I know how to prevent this is not 
what I am standing for. So if this is LyX's new policy, I will quit.


regards Uwe


Re: Update on 2.3.0 situation and Windows-specific issues

2018-05-13 Thread Uwe Stöhr

Am 12.05.2018 um 05:13 schrieb Richard Kimberly Heck:


No, I may wish to make use of it. I am in the process of figuring out
how to build the Windows installer myself, as you suggested. The code
belongs to LyX, not to you.


I never said that it belongs to me.


Please make your decision and tell me.


Others can speak up if they wish, but I believe we have made ourselves
clear. We will not release an official Windows installer that updates
people's MikTeX installations without asking their permission.


OK, this was clear since about 2 months. Why haven't we discussed at 
all? I made some arguments, see below and haven't heard a good reason 
against them. It is also interesting that non-Win developers state they 
have better arguments without contesting the arguments from the Win 
developer.



understand that you think Windows users would be confused by a simple
dialog asking their permission to update MikTeX.


I explained a dozen times why, and again below.


I have spoken to
several Windows users over the last few days who think otherwise. For a
public example, see
     https://www.mail-archive.com/lyx-users@lists.lyx.org/msg107175.html


That doesn't help much. Jim know what MiKTeX is, my mother not. Jim will 
do the right thing in the dialog, my mother maybe not. Jim can google in 
our mailing list to find a solution, my mother not. So what people do we 
need to take care of the most - users like my mother. users like jim 
will find their way no matter if there is a dialog.



where Jim Rockford suggests "a simple warning message" as a solution,
exactly what we have been suggesting all along.


Why is my proposal not taken into account: Not having MiKTeX updated is 
an expert thing. Therefore only experts should be bothered with this. 
experts can read the announcement. Average user can misunderstand it 
with a probability of 50%. Those who misunderstood it and denied the 
update can end up with an unusable LyX. Therefore I am against such a 
dialog.



If you refuse to include such a dialog, then I guess you should build
your installer separately.


I refuse because this doesn't fit with Windows behavior as a service. 
Windows will bring you every half a year new features and change 
settings and registry entries. If you don't like this you cannot use 
Windows. Since Windows changes e.g. registry things, programs like 
MiKTeX must change the way they work from time to time - if they like it 
or not. So must do LyX!
But you think you can do different. Then start your Win 10 with the 
recent update that came out few days ago and try if you can work with 
MiKTeX and its old package management.


I think it is senseless to discuss any longer since I can argue whatever 
I want and you will insist on your opinion you had from the first day on.


So I will now set up a new OpenSource project besides LyX for the installer.

regards Uwe


Re: Update on 2.3.0 situation and Windows-specific issues

2018-05-11 Thread Uwe Stöhr

Am 07.04.2018 um 00:48 schrieb Richard Kimberly Heck:


installer that is as automatic as it can be. Many of the rest of us have
real doubts about the wisdom of this,


That is what annoys me. You doubt that I am wise enough to set up LyX
for Windows users.


First of all, I specifically said that THIS IS NOT THE ISSUE WE ARE
DISCUSSING.


This IS the issue for me because you state my solution does harm users 
and it is not wise. Fine, then dive into the Windows ocean and propose a 
new/better Win installer that acts wisely.



What I doubt is that it is a good idea for one
person (you) to try all by yourself to manage a large collection of
complex programs and their interactions and dependencies.


The installer code in in our Git. Everybody can contribute to it and I 
hoped that I won't be the only contributor.
That the installer works as it does is the result of about 10 years of 
development, many, many discussions. So please don't come up now with 
doubts that its concept is not wise. Se also my other mail from today.



That leads inevitably to the kinds of
problems we have here,
to multiple versions of the installer in response to bugs in programs we
do not control, and so on and so forth.


LyX needs many third party programs. For the user it is irrelevant if he 
cannot use LyX because of a problem with python, Ghostscript, Perl, 
MiKTeX, NSIS or ImageMagick. He only sees the result: LyX is not working 
well for me. Therefore the lyX Win installer must take care of the 
dependencies. This is the conclusion of 10 years LyX Win installer.

So let's face the reality and act accordingly.


As JMarc pointed out, the very example you give:


It is wrong to say, LyX is not allowed to update MiKTeX because of
potential bugs on CTAN. I mean with this directive on Linux they cannot upgrade 
e.g. my
Qt5 from e.g. 5.6 to 5.9 because there could be a regression bug in Qt5.9 that 
would
affect all apps using Qt5.


just makes this point. People can do these kinds of upgrades if they
like, but a stable distro
like Debian or Ubuntu LTS...


Again, we must face the reality! Win 10 is a service. If you like it or 
not, you will be upgraded to current Win 10 builds. The same is with 
MiKTeX. As soon as you upgrade you need the new package handling system 
to be able to get bugfixes in future. Moreover, MiKTeX cannot stand 
still because some new Win 10 features/settings require a changed 
MiKTeX. Imagine people got their Win 10 upgrade and cannot use MiKTeX 
any longer. (The MiKTeX developer is for good reason in the Windows 
early tester program.) Therefore I don't understand the whole discussion 
why an upgrade to the new MiKTeX package handling could be harmful.
So your Linux-centric view doesn't help us for LyX on Windows. Windows 
is the market leader and we have to accept that the Windows world works 
in some respects even fundamentally different than the Linux world.


(Besides this, popular Linux like e.g. Manjaro upgrade permanently e.g. 
Qt. If I like it or not, I cannot prevent this.)



So my final question still stands:

_Should I remove the Win installer code from LyX's git?_

If yes, I'll release installer builds as I di the last years.
If no, I'll create a new Github project and LyX won't have an "official" 
Win installer but refer to external LyX win installer.


Please make your decision and tell me.

many thanks and regards
Uwe


Re: Update on 2.3.0 situation and Windows-specific issues

2018-05-11 Thread Uwe Stöhr

Am 07.04.2018 um 00:40 schrieb Richard Kimberly Heck:


If MiKTeX can be broken some other
way, that's a bug in MiKTeX and not one we should be trying to fix via
the LyX installer.


That is the fundamental difference between my and your approach. I see 
the user perspective. And for the user it is irrelevnat what causes his 
problems. For him it is important to get a working system without the 
need to learn about background things.

Users just want to use.

I as developer know the background and can act to assure the users will 
get in every case a working LyX/LaTeX setup. I spent a lot of time in 
developing a proper solution and will provide this via the installer.


The Win installer worked since its first days that way that it took care 
about third-party components. In the past it contained many times 
special code to workaround bugs in third-party programs that could later 
be removed. So this case it not different.



On the question at issue.
Do people really read release announcements?


Average users of course not. They also don't read dialogs, especially 
long ones with lots of special words. But average users are the majority 
(assuming we have a Gaussian distribution).
The Win installer therefore focuses on average users because they would 
be lost if their MiKTeX/LaTeX is broken. Experienced users know what to 
do, can read the announcement, google in forums etc.



My real problemm, though, is that I simply do not understand why we
can't have a dialog at the very beginning of the installation process
that says something like this:


I explained this now for sure more than 10 times.


Do you honestly think that is too confusing for average users?


Yes, definitely.


First, Do No Harm [1].


Well, that you state my solution would harm is what shock me. No, it 
does not harm and I explained not.


regards Uwe


Re: Update on 2.3.0 situation and Windows-specific issues

2018-04-05 Thread Uwe Stöhr

Am 05.04.2018 um 04:47 schrieb Scott Kostyshak:


In my opinion it is that important, because updating LyX could break
something else on a user's computer.


No! Why do you claim this again? Don't mix potential bugs in a LaTeX 
package on CTAN with LyX. With this argumentation every package update 
could introduce bugs. LyX is not responsible for bugs on CTAN.


Sooner or later people must update MiKTeX to be able to obtain packages. 
If expert users really want to freeze their MiKTeX, they can already do 
this in the MiKTeX settings and the LyX installer respects this.
Only experienced users know how the package handling update is done and 
even then you can get serious troubles because of bugs in some MiKTeX 
versions.
So it is the right way to force the upgrade AND to do the right update 
steps in the right order, so that independent on your MiKTeX version, 
you end up with an upgraded and working MiKTeX.


It is wrong to say, LyX is not allowed to update MiKTeX because of 
potential bugs on CTAN. I mean with this directive on Linux they cannot 
upgrade e.g. my Qt5 from e.g. 5.6 to 5.9 because there could be a 
regression bug in Qt5.9 that would affect all apps using Qt5.



I think that analogies can be useful in making points, but only if they
fit correctly. In this analogy what is the part that is analogous to a
MiKTeX update breaking something?


Again, the MiKTeX update doesn't break anything, see above and we spoke 
about this now a dozen times.


It annoyed me that I had to explain what I mean with "average users". 
You already had you experienced with unexperienced users under Windows. 
So you should understand why I decided in favor of average users and 
sorted the info for the experts out to the release announcement.


Finally, please tell me why it is not sufficient that expert users can 
read the release announcement to make certain MiKTeX settings if they 
like before they use the Win installer and why we should instead bother 
average users with a question that they cannot understand instead and 
risk that these average users will end up with an completely broken 
MiKTeX if they made the wrong decision in the dialog they could not 
understand?!

Unless I get no sensible answer to this I won't debate any longer.

Working towards an official Windows binary is very important to me. 


What has the installer to do with the binary of LyX? The compilation of 
the lyx.exe doesn't include the Win installer. If you doesn't like to 
have the installer code in our git repository, I will remove it, no 
problem. Then you cannot claim that the installer behavior is a LyX 
thing. The more I think about it, this seems to be the only solution 
that you can focus again on LyX.
So do you agee, that I remove the installer from LyX's git? If yes, you 
can release LyX as binary and the packages for the different OSes can do 
their job and we save time to debate things not directly related to LyX.
Alternatively just change the makefile.am files that the Win installer 
is no longer included to LyX releases.


thanks and regards
Uwe


Re: Update on 2.3.0 situation and Windows-specific issues

2018-04-05 Thread Uwe Stöhr

Am 05.04.2018 um 03:02 schrieb Richard Kimberly Heck:


It is not true that people don't trust you, and it really isn't helpful
to phrase it that way. This is not an issue of expertise, experience, or
anythinng of that sort. It's a judgement call about what to do in what
is obviously a difficult situation.


Dear Riki and Scott and all other devs,

What do I mean with expertise? I created the Win installer. I developed 
it over the years to iron out several issues that arose during the 
years.  Now I encountered a difficult and severe issue. MiKTeX contains 
several features just because of me - they were developed for or with me 
and thus LyX. Therefore I know MiKTeX well. I contacted the MiKTeX 
developer and we developed the probably best solution.
So I have the expertise to make a decision how to handle the particular 
problem. As I said, there won't be a solution to please every user to 
100%. I pondered the different probable solutions and finally came up 
with something that I think would help most people the most. I had to 
make a decision and I decided in favor of average users without 
background knowledge. I decided to move info for experts to the release 
announcement and haven't heard yet why this doesn't suit expert users.


What you do is to question my capabilities of making a decision and thus 
my expertise with LyX-Win-MiKTeX and the installer concept in general



As others have explained, we work as a team here, and none of us ever
gets to make a decision all by ourselves about anything that is
important in LyX.


Sure and I did not decide about LyX but about how a certain installer 
page should look to overcome a problem with a third-party program that 
is Win-only. I think I can decide this. This is no LyX issue. It is an 
additional feature I provide with the installer to also take care of 
third-party programs. You can like it or not but this is no LyX thing. 
If you think so, then I will move the installer code to Github. Then it 
is definitely no LyX thing and we can end this fruitless debate.



have created an
installer that is as automatic as it can be. Many of the rest of us have
real doubts about the wisdom of this,


That is what annoys me. You doubt that I am wise enough to set up LyX 
for Windows users. If you know it better then come up with your own 
installer. Invest your spare time to dive into the Windows registry 
ocean and then create your own installer.
Who sent patches to the installer until now? Not many ad that is the 
point. You judge me without the knowledge. Do I judge how LyX packages 
are built for Linux distris of for Mac? No, because I don't have the 
knowledge. I trust Stefan that he knows what MacOS people need and how 
problems can be worked around the best.


Uwe


Re: Update on 2.3.0 situation and Windows-specific issues

2018-04-04 Thread Uwe Stöhr

Am 31.03.2018 um 19:37 schrieb Scott Kostyshak:


I've included something along these lines in the newest proposal for a
dialog.


Dear Developers,

yes, I take it personally that you cannot trust me as Windows developer 
who has experiences with LyX under Windows for more than 10 years. I 
gave LyX lectures to students and did a lot to help users over years.


I invested much time to write the details for interested people in the 
LyX Wiki and our docs but not to molest average users. So what is your 
problem? That I hide info from users? No, I just decide where I give 
info. Or why do you think I created many different Wiki pages and expert 
LyX documentation files?


I am sorry but I cannot understand not to release the Win installer just 
for a dialog or not. Is this that important not to release our hard work 
over months for LyX 2.3.0 for Windows users? Certainly not.


The situation is with a car: the majority just use it. They press the ON 
button or turn a key to start the motor and drive to e.g. a supermarket. 
They are not interested how the motor start is internally done or even 
what is below the car hood. Their task is to drive to the market. But 
what you want is that everybody should know what is under the hood. Why? 
Why can't people just use things?


What I do with the installer, is providing a LyX that just works to be 
able to focus on your task to write the text you want or have to write.


Please leave the expert point of view that users have to know background 
things. This is not how it works in the Windows world. Or does the 
LibreOffice Win installer bother you with background stuff? No, they 
don't bother users but give all expert info on their Wiki pages - so 
exactly as I do and did.


I am currently abroad (and will be the next 2 weeks) and cannot read all 
mails you forwarded to me.


It is not very helpful to make a survey on a mailing list since, as I 
explained, most users don't know or use mailing lists. Those who write 
there have usually some background knowledge. But why does my installer 
not have a special dialog - because average users won't understand it 
because of lack of background knowledge.



If you cannot trust my expertise - and it seems so - then I can move my 
installer to Github and announce it as separate program.


regards Uwe


Re: New Win installer ready for LyX 2.3.0

2018-03-23 Thread Uwe Stöhr

Am 23.03.2018 um 05:22 schrieb Scott Kostyshak:


I understand your argument. I disagree that adding a dialog would hurt
the vast majority more than it would help it


That is the fundamental disagreement.

It doesn't help if you ask users who knows what a package is, if they 
would understand such a dialog. My experience is that the majority of 
LyX users (under Windows of course) don't know this. My experience will 
not change the longer we discuss.
People like my mother can and do use LyX. She would not understand what 
you want but she should be able to use LyX in future.


I am wondering why other developers don't have similar experiences as 
well. I mean, most users writing to our mailing lists know what a 
console is but most Windows users don't know this - because you never 
need it unless you are a developer. Concepts like a console, package, 
dependencies etc. are not used in Windows. This should not be an excuse 
not to use LyX under Windows.


regards Uwe


Fwd: Re: New Win installer ready for LyX 2.3.0

2018-03-23 Thread Uwe Stöhr

Dear Ben,

many thanks for your reply. I am forwarding it to the mailing list that 
others can follow the discussion:



Thanks for the answer,

First point:

What I mean is that when you choose
LyX:Preferences -> Language Settings -> Default
Keyboard binding should be related to the Keyboard of your system not 
the OS user interface language.
Example I use Windows 10 with UK language interface but with a French 
Azerty Keyboard because it's a French keyboard in my laptop (speaking of 
hardware).
Even that I changed LyX interface Language to French but I didn't notice 
big change in the default key bidding:

LyX:Preferences -> Editing -> Shortcuts

Second point:
===
LyX favorise "American dictionary" and overlook the other English 
dictionaries:

This is easily verified when you choose:
LyX:Document -> Settings -> Language -> English
then LyX use automatically "American" en_US.dic nothing else while in my 
spirit "English" refer to 3 or 4 international languages, the most 
important (historically) of then being the Britannic languages.
When you save your custom spell checking words, LyX consider them 
related to en_US.dic.
Now there is at least 6 options of English languages in the document 
settings:
* English (this is supposed English International but LyX use en_US for 
this option)

* English (USA), LyX save the words in file called pwl_american.dict
* English (USA), LyX save the words in file called pwl_british.dict
* English (Australia) " "
* English (Canada) " "
etc

Third point:
=
Most of the American dictionaries are quite disappointing. I think 
American care very little about this Hungarian spell checker and 
favorise Aspell. The dictionaries are poorly developed for this Language 
and come most from the SCOWL site:

http://wordlist.aspell.net/hunspell-readme/

and as noticed by the authors there:

Quote:

/If none of these dictionaries suite you (for example, maybe you want 
the normal dictionary that also includes common variants) additional 
dictionaries can be generated at http://app.aspell.net/create or by 
modifying speller/make-hunspell-dict in SCOWL. Please do let me know if 
you end up publishing a customized dictionary./



I spent the last 3 or 4 days improving this US dictionary 
 (date 2007-08-29), 
that I consider *the best* after a lot of testing and I added more than 
350 new words related my own field "Mathematics". I spent hours and 
hours browsing index of Mathematic books and checking  google for the 
consistency of words and if they are more or less accepted by the 
international community.

Example:
New word:
geometrization/S
geometrize/GASD

uniformize/GASD

to say the least (how come on an American dictionary forget about a name 
like "Poincaré"?)


Please find attached some files related to my work.

Best regards.
H. Ben
FSSM


user.bind
Description: Binary data


Re: New Win installer ready for LyX 2.3.0

2018-03-22 Thread Uwe Stöhr

Am 22.03.2018 um 06:34 schrieb Scott Kostyshak:


Thank you for this detailed explanation. It's unfortunate that we have
this disagreement on what is best for the users, but I appreciate that
you have put a lot of thought into your decision and I know that you
care a lot about the users.


Don't get me wrong. Of course I want to please as many people as 
possible. In this case I cannot please everybody. Therefore the focus is 
on the vast majority since experts can follow a hint in the announcement 
text of LyX 2.3.0.


regards Uwe


Re: New Win installer ready for LyX 2.3.0

2018-03-21 Thread Uwe Stöhr

Am 21.03.2018 um 15:07 schrieb Ben Houcine:


I will drop some of my remarks here:

- Key binding in LyX should be improved because the standard keybinding 
bundled with LyX fit more the American qwerty keyboard. I have my own 
keybinding to the French azerty keyboard


Dear Ben,

LyX can be used with different key bindings. For example we deliver LyX 
already with key bindings for the German qwertz keyboard.
Therefore please open an enhancement request in our bug tracker and also 
write a mail to the lyx-devel mailing list with your proposal. We have 2 
french developers who can state about french keybindings.


- The spell checker user dictionary should be improved. All in all LyX 
has the behavior to favorise American en_US dictionary when you add your 
own words to the custom list.


That is up to you. With the setting of the document language in LyX you 
decide what dictionary will be used. If you select British English, you 
will get the corresponding dictionary and new words will be added to it, 
not to the American English dictionary. If this is not the case, it is a 
bug that you should report in our bug tracker.


When you choose "English" as language LyX 
don't use the different English flavor dictionaries like 
Breton/en_GB/en_AU ... !!


What do you mean? How else should people e.g. select to use the 
Australian dictionary?


- REQUEST: add a possibility to add Hunspell commands like /M, /S, /MS 
... in the user dictionary "pwl_english.dict"


Please open an enhancement request in our bug tracker:
https://www.lyx.org/trac/wiki/BugTrackerHome

thanks for your feedback and happy LyXining
Uwe


New Win installer ready for LyX 2.3.0

2018-03-20 Thread Uwe Stöhr

Dear LyXers,

I just uploaded a new installer version 6:
http://ftp.lyx.de/LyXWinInstaller/LyX2.3.0/

The only change compared to the previous version is that the bundle 
installer contains the latest miktex-basic installer. This fixes some 
bugs for users installing LyX (with LaTeX) the first time.

I also updated the bundled ImageMagick version.

The last days I spoke with some Win users and I think it is the right 
decision how the installer is for LyX 2.3.0. The installer should focus 
on average users that don't know about packages etc. Concepts like 
packages do not exist under Windows and user should not be bothered with 
technical details they don't understand.


If some expert user is maybe not amused because he has not read the 
release announcement and did not like to update its MiKTeX package 
handling, has the knowledge to revert this or to use TeXLive. Experts 
who read the announcement know what is meant by setting "never" to 
install packages in the MiKTeX settings.


So all in all the decision is to please the majority of users also for 
the price that some expert users might not like that.
I stand to this decision after the long discussion we had here and 
because of my experience during the last years.


If the LyX community says that we must take care of every expert user 
not reading the announcement for the price that average users without 
background knowledge can sooner or later end up with a broken LaTeX and 
thus an unusable LyX I can live with the fact that LyX might then not 
have an official Windows installer.


sorry and regards
Uwe


Re: Update on 2.3.0 situation and Windows-specific issues

2018-03-19 Thread Uwe Stöhr

Am 19.03.2018 um 00:44 schrieb Pavel Sanda:


I checked it out. When I used the installer I did not give me any option,
it just 'informed' that MiKTeX is going to be upgraded and forced me to
accept it. That's what I said can make some people mad and decent application
should not do without asking.


You still did not get my point. Average users don't care about 
internals, they just need a running LyX. MiKTeX must be updated to 
assure this.


As said, if you are an expert and have some background knowledge you can 
prevent that the MiKTeX packaging system will be touched by denying any 
package update in the MiKTeX settings. therefore I proposed to add this 
info to the release announcement for experienced users.



I believe that if we add the part of the message I wrote last time which
would simply state something along the lines "If you are not sure, the
answer is most probably Yes." anyone with basic school education would
pass the test, don't you think so?


Again, users that don't understand what the decision is about and press 
No will end up with an unchanged MiKTeX and this will sooner or later 
break their LaTeX setup in such a complete way that you cannot compile 
any LyX document.
The probability of pressing No if you don't understand is 50%. I mean, 
some people are afraid if they don't understand and therefore say no.



Release notes is must read for packagers or maybe also interesting for
people who look for particular fix or feature, general audience will
not read it...


Correct and therefore it is the right place for experts. Average users 
don't read the announcement line by line, also because most users are 
not that familiar with English and our announcements are only in English.


Experienced users with background knowledge will read announcements and 
can also understand what to do.

Off-topic in this thread, but installing experience on Windows was somewhat
frustraing here, mainly because of this on-fly update miktex feature. I have
decent broadband connectivity, but it took *ages* for the update to finish the
first install.


Yes, the first installation can take some time. It will download about 
400 MB. A complete MiKTeX however needs several GB.
However, this is not specific to MiKTeX, if you use TeXLive you will 
need the same download size.



If I were to show LyX to my friend on his Windows computer I
wouldn't be able to reach basic functionality within first hour of install(!).


OK, then the download mirror had problem. I installed LyX today on a PC 
the first time and after 5 minutes everything was ready. Also abroad I 
never needed more than 20 minutes.



Also there seems to be bug, that lyx icon does not disappear from desktop
after unistalling.


So you uninstalled LyX 2.3? Did you install it as admin but uninstall it 
from a non-admin account? In this case the icon cannot be removed 
automatically.


thanks for testing the installer. I find it important that developers 
discussing the installer know how it works and what is possible with it 
and with MiKTeX.


regards Uwe


Re: Fw: Re: LyX 2.3.0 Released

2018-03-19 Thread Uwe Stöhr

Am 19.03.2018 um 10:17 schrieb Sivan Frenkel:

I am a Win10 user and Scott has directed me to the LyX 2.3 win 
installer, which is still not on the website. The installer worked. I 
have updated my MiKTeX before I ran the installer but it still took a 
while when the MiKTeX was updated in the background.


Very good.


Here are two comments in general on the win installer:
every time there is a major release LyX is installed in a new folder 
(LyX 2.3 in this case). As a result:
(a) All my preferences and shortcuts are reset (as they stay in the LyX 
2.2 folder); this is in contrast to minor releases that are updated 
within the same folder;

(b) I am left with two versions of LyX on my computer.


This is correct. LyX 2.2 and 2.3 can be installed side by side. This way 
you can try out LyX 2.3 but still have LyX 2.2 in case there are 
problems with 2.3.


This behavior was often requested to be able to collaborate with others 
without any problems. For example I am currently working on a operation 
manual with someone using LyX 2.2. We decided to keep with LyX 2.2 until 
the manual is ready. For other documents I use already LyX 2.3.


As for (a): do you know where am I supposed to find the preferences file 
(or its name) so I could copy it to the new folder?


The preferences of LyX 2.3 are stored in e.g.
C:\Users\\AppData\Roaming\LyX2.3

The fileformat and also the format of the preferences of major LyX 
versions differ. Therefore every major LyX version has its own 
preferences. You can try out to copy your preferences from LyX 2.2 but 
we cannot guarantee that they will work correctly also with LyX 2.3. 
because of the different preferences format.


As for (b), for me it is not a big problem as I will simply uninstall 
LyX 2.2 manually


I recommend to keep LyX 2.2 installed. In the past users found some bugs 
in new major LyX versions. If you uninstall LyX 2.2 and encounter an 
unforeseen bug in LyX 2.3 you can have a problem. Just keep your LyX 2.2 
since it doesn't harm and disk space is usually no problem.


thanks for testing and regards
Uwe


Re: Update on 2.3.0 situation and Windows-specific issues

2018-03-16 Thread Uwe Stöhr

Am 16.03.2018 um 09:56 schrieb Pavel Sanda:


Uwe Stöhr wrote:

So my plan is to use the 2.3.0 installer also as repair kit.


Yes, this was kind of clear and pretty much everyone on this list thinks that
we should not do such things hiddenly without advertising.


This is not hidden. As you have seen, I already pop up a dialog telling 
that the installer will now upgrade your package handling system. This 
dialog is necessary because depending on when users upgraded their 
MiKTeX the last time, this can take up to 5 minutes. I have to pop up 
this dialog because if users would close the installer meanwhile they 
surely end up with a broken MiKTeX.


Scott made his point that the package upgrade could lead to a state 
where a fresh package version from CTAN has a regression bug. My point 
is, yes this can happen, but then all TeX users are affected and such 
bugs are fixed very quickly.


I also proposed several times now to add an info to the release 
announcement for experienced users how they can prevent the package 
upgrade if they really want this and that the consequence is that they 
might sooner or later break their MiKTeX. If this happens they can use 
the 2.3.0 installer.

Maybe I missed this but I haven't seen a reply to my proposal yet.


Generally speaking - apart from your mom, which might indeed be better served
without additional info, there is also crowd of people who go mad when software
contain hidden "kits" which were nowhere mentioned.


Sure, but people like my mother are the average users in my experience. 
They are lost with these kind of additional info because under Windows 
there is no concept of package handling and dependencies. This concept 
is simply unknown for most users.
I never forgot the experienced users. The installer already provides 
several options they can use. Just check it out to see what you can do.
For this particular case, see my proposal above. With this the experts 
know what to do.


In general, experts always find a way to resolve problems. They can also 
write a mail to our lists to get help. Average users would be lost. You 
can for example not expect anybody in my family to know how a mailing 
list or a bug tracker works. The LyX developers working at a university 
can for example ask their students (if they are not IT students) if they 
ever used a mailing list or bugtracker. If even some students don't use 
or know it, you can imagine the knowledge of average users. In my 
classes (I once gave introduction lessons to LyX), not even a quarter 
knew about bug trackers.


regards Uwe


Re: Update on 2.3.0 situation and Windows-specific issues

2018-03-15 Thread Uwe Stöhr

Am 15.03.2018 um 18:29 schrieb Richard Heck:


I was talking about whether anything would happen *as a result of
someone running
the installer*. I understand that there are *other* ways that the MiKTeX
installation can
be damaged, as happened to your mother. That is a really horrible MiKTeX
bug, and
there is nothing we can do about it.


Yes, that is exactly the case.
I fully agree that it is not the task of an installer to change existing 
installations if not really necessary. In this case however, I think 
this is necessary. Users don't even running an installer can end up with 
in a state where they cannot compile any LyX document.
Therefore the LyX 2.3.0 installer needs to trigger the package 
management update. Only this way it is possible to repair broken MiKTeX 
systems. So users end up being lost can use the LyX 2.3.0 installer to 
get back to work. Therefore my plan is to implement the repair mechanism 
in the installer for 2.2.4 too.


The installer for 2.3.1 will be the normal one not touching the package 
handling system. So at least we can provide one installer repairing 
things.  So if users e.g. don't update LyX for a long time but run into 
problems, could then use the 2.3.0 installer and install the current 
2.3.x afterwards.



I decided that I cannot stand for an installer that can send many
users into serious
troubles despite I know a way to prevent this.


The only issue here is: Do we add a dialog of the sort in question? The
installer with
that dialog cannot cause any new problems, because either: (1) the
person installs LyX
and it updates MiKTeX just as you want; (2) the person does not install
LyX, in which
case they are in the same situation they were before, because the
installer was a no-op.


That is my point. Users like e.g. my mother (who can read English but 
are not very good at it) might misunderstand the dialog and deny the 
update. Therefore they don't get the new LyX and, moreover, the 
probability is high that they end up with a screwed-up LaTeX some weeks 
later.
English is an important point here in my opinion because in such a short 
time I cannot manage to get the dialog properly translated. So e.g. 
German users get the installer in German except of the dialog you want. 
This makes it even more difficult to understand what the dialog is 
about. I also think that a dialog is not sufficient to explain all the 
details/reasons behind it. (Personally I also don't like that I have to 
issue a dialog to assure people keep the installer open until it is 
finished, because non-native speakers will have problems to understand it.)



The installer for LyX 2.3.1 will return to the old behavior.


Why? Won't that just break the installations of people still using 2.2.3?


We can add a sentence in the announcement text of LyX 2.3.1 that people 
should use the 2.3.0 installer first to avoid problems. And if users did 
not mention it and ask for help we can send them the link to the 2.3.0 
installer.
So my plan is to use the 2.3.0 installer also as repair kit. Why 2.3.? 
Because every LyX 2.3.x release can be installed over an existing 2.3.0 
installation. This installer feature is major a goal. So if this is not 
possible, there is a bug in the installer I will fix.


I am currently traveling, so please excuse delays in my responses.

regards Uwe


Re: Update on 2.3.0 situation and Windows-specific issues

2018-03-15 Thread Uwe Stöhr

Am 14.03.2018 um 04:31 schrieb Richard Heck:


If this dialog is popped at the very beginning of the installation,
before ANYTHING
is actually done, then it is impossible that the MiKTeX installation
should be affected.


This is not true and I don't get why I cannot make this clear to you.

Maybe another example: My mother called me today. She uses LyX 2.2.3. I 
sent her a document I wrote the last days to proof-read. I don't know 
what triggered her problem, but she ended up with a broken LaTeX not 
able to compile any LyX document any longer. Maybe she had not all 
packages installed I use in the document.
However, the exact cause is not important. She did not use any 
installer. As I wrote, users just using LyX 2.2.x can screw up their 
LaTeX and I experienced this by myself.
I sent here the link to the 2.3.0 installer and it worked: the solution 
proposed by the MiKTeX developer repaired her system. So she uses now 
LyX 2.3.0 and it works for her and I am happy. This solution needs the 
updated package handling system.


As I wrote now a dozen times, the installer for 2.3.0 will be an 
exception. I have to assure that LyX users don't end up lost. 
Experienced users can be informed by two sentences in the release 
announcement. Average users cannot have the choice to deny the package 
update because if they leave their system untouched they can screw up 
their system sooner or later.

The installer for LyX 2.3.1 will return to the old behavior.

I reacted so pissed-off because I get the feeling that you and others 
don't trust me "a single meter" as we say in German that I decided the 
right thing. I made a decision because I believe this is the best for 
most users. I am also not happy that I had to change the installer's 
default behavior but it is like it is.



I am talking about average users and my mother is a good example. She 
was lost with her screwed-up LaTeX. She doesn't know anything about 
packages, dependencies, commands etc. Well, average users are just 
users. For example she became a Gimp master surprising me quite often 
but she doesn't know anything about color models, Gimp plugins etc.. 
That should not prevent users from using a program.


If I am no longer allowed to assure that average users like my mother 
get a fully functional LyX, it makes no sense for me to provide an 
installer any longer.



Please let's end the debate. I decided that I cannot stand for an 
installer that can send many users into serious troubles despite I know 
a way to prevent this.

If you don't trust me, turn on your Windows PCs and try it out by yourself.
If you don't have experiences with LyX users without knowledge of 
packages, LaTeX etc, under Windows please stop claiming what is good for 
them.
If you don't trust me at all or think I do evil things, provide your own 
installer or don't release LyX for Windows.


I have currently other problems to deal with than LyX. I already spent 
too much time with the installer because of the MiKTeX problem.


regards Uwe


Re: Update on 2.3.0 situation and Windows-specific issues

2018-03-13 Thread Uwe Stöhr

Am 13.03.2018 um 04:17 schrieb Scott Kostyshak:


I definitely agree that every additional dialog is an additional
possibility for confusion. I think where we disagree is on the benefit
that the dialog could bring.


Yes. You don't understand that users who don't about LaTeX and deny the 
update can end up with a completely screwed up MiKTeX. They will then be 
lost and will loose all personal LaTeX settings.
This is unacceptable. So should I sent hundred to users into this just 
for an info for experienced users that could also be given in the 
release notes? I won't do this. Point.


Why don't you add a sentence or two to the release notes for the 
experienced users that they can set in MiKTeX "never" to package 
updates. Experienced users will understand this. That is the most 
suitable solution.


regards Uwe


Re: Windows Installer: Future Issues

2018-03-13 Thread Uwe Stöhr

Am 12.03.2018 um 04:32 schrieb Richard Heck:


That is a serious mistake: to focus on "average users". But it has
clearly become pointless to discuss this any longer.


Dear Richard,

I cannot leave this commented because it is too fundamental. I tried to 
calm down, but cannot.


What is LyX for? It is a frontend for LaTeX. It is designed to hide 
LaTeX from the users. Because of this I came once to LyX: "Cool, I don't 
have to learn LaTeX but can use it!". This way I used it for about a 
year for internship protocols at the University. So long after I came to 
LyX I started to learn what is behind it.
As new LyX user you will first learn in sec. 6 of the UserGuide 
something of LaTeX and there also not about package handling.
( Users liking to work with LaTeX directly can and will use other 
editors like TeXWorks.)


So the average user does not know how LaTeX works, what a package is and 
how it is installed or uninstalled.
As I wrote, most of my students and colleagues at the University uses 
LyX for large documents without knowing anything about LaTeX.
Why don't you trust my experience in helping LyX users? Why should I lie 
to you with my experience?


Therefore our main userbase are just users. The task of the installer is 
to provide a working LyX for them.
Users with more knowledge know what to do and how LaTeX works. Therefore 
I won't bother the majority of users with a decision they cannot make 
because lack of knowledge. I explained now a dozen times why I cannot 
allow these users to deny an update because then their LaTeX can be 
broken and they are lost.
The experienced users have already all possibilities to handle LaTeX 
differently as I wrote.


I won't repeat this anymore now. Please add an appropriate sentence to 
the announcement or release notes for the experienced users that then 
will have to set "Never" in miktex for the package handling if they like 
to. But also tell them the risks of this.



I do not know how we should resolve this matter now. But, longer term,
we need someone to create a Windows installer that JUST installs LyX,
much the way the OSX installer does. As JMarc said, users on OSX seem to
manage to install a LaTeX distribution, etc, independently. Surely
Windows users can manage to do the same.


I cannot accept that you are telling me what is good for Windows users. 
I explained my decision but you are not understanding. Why don't you try 
it out yourself to see what can happen?


I would also not start a debate how to handle with LyX under Mac or 
Linux because I don't know these OSes or don't use them. Do you use 
MiKTeX? Do you use LyX under Windows? Do you know LyX Windows users who 
don't know LaTeX? So why do you state what is good for them?



It has become a serious problem the extent to which *MiKTeX* bugs now
delay LyX releases,


When did we had the last time a delay because of a bug in MiKTeX? We had 
much, much more problems in the past with ImageMagick. I had to create 
many installer builds because of this program.



LyX was never meant to be so closely integrated with a particular LaTeX
distribution, and it was a mistake to make it so.


Again, please try our LyX under windows by yourself before you continue. 
take a Win users without knowledge of LaTeX and they should use TeXLive. 
Then you'll see.
It is unacceptable that you tell me what mistakes I made. You know 
nothing about TeXLive and its problem in the past. We had many 
discussions with users and the current installer is the result. For more 
than 10 years I provide it and spent hundreds of ours in supporting 
users. I tried to fix problem, as fast as possible.


I give up now.
Uwe


Re: Update on 2.3.0 situation and Windows-specific issues

2018-03-11 Thread Uwe Stöhr

Am 11.03.2018 um 18:12 schrieb Scott Kostyshak:


I think that's what we're doing. The basic disagreement we have is that
I think adding a dialog will bring more benefit than harm.


And I made clear why I am opposed to this.
In the end it costs my spare time if something does not work. Users will 
contact me in this case. Therefore I focus on average users. It doesn't 
help me that they don't understand a dialog, press cancel and later 
screw up their MiKTeX. Yes, LyX is then not guilty but for the users 
this is not important - they cannot use LyX anymore.


>> Maybe less than 1 per 1000 users might
>> forbid a MiKTeX update and thus stop the installation of LyX because 
>> they think it could maybe make problem.

>
> Even if the user chooses to continue the installation, there is still 
 > a benefit of the dialog in that they are more aware that MiKTeX was

> updated and in fact they chose for it to happen.

It is not, it only make things worse. Every dialog can cause confusions. 
You are only looking from your professional view and I failed to make 
this clear. Can't you see that the majority doesn't know what a package 
is? Most of my students and colleagues didn't know this but were able to 
write their master or Ph.D. thesis with LyX.
Therefore giving users a choice they don't understand is a problem. What 
is if they deny to install LyX, continue using LyX 2.2.x and screw up 
their MiKTeX?
Who has a chance to fix a broken package or similar? Those who know what 
a package is. These guys have the knowledge to forbid any update if they 
like to and the installer lets them do this. Average users would be lost 
with their screwed-up LaTeX. Therefore I made my decision.


I think you should respect that the guy who builds the installer and 
provides support in case of a problem with it has good reasons. We spoke 
about the topic, I red your arguments but stay with my decision. It is 
my spare time in case of problems so I am the one risking something. I 
thought about it a lot to be as safe as possible for most users.


I explained now in a dozen mails my decision. Feel free to add whatever 
you like in the release notes. Feel also free not to announce the Win 
installer officially or not to put it in ftp.lyx.org.


Let's end the debate. Please make your decision and let's focus in LyX 
2.3.1.


thanks and regards
Uwe


Re: Update on 2.3.0 situation and Windows-specific issues

2018-03-11 Thread Uwe Stöhr

Am 11.03.2018 um 05:08 schrieb Scott Kostyshak:


So there are already 3 possible workarounds for experienced users in the LyX
installer and these options are all translated.


That behavior sounds good. My concern though is that even experienced
users will not guess that LyX will update MiKTeX. Once they realize, it
may be too late.


Can we please focus on the basics? Maybe less than 1 per 1000 users 
might forbid a MiKTeX update and thus stop the installation of LyX 
because they think it could maybe make problem. Therefore I won't bother 
the other 999 users with a dialog from which maybe 500 users don't 
understand what is meant by the dialog (unknown words/concept and only 
in English).


Experienced user have already 3 methods to avoid any MiKTeX update and 
get LyX (for the costs that LyX might not be work). So as they are 
experts, they know what to do. The installer give power users already 
this freedom.
Please try the installer on your own to see what is possible in what 
installation state.



Here are a few reports from me regarding documents that used to compile
that failed after updates.


These were bugs in LaTeX packages affecting all users, no matter if they 
use LyX, what TeX distro and what OS they are using.

LyX cannot take care for other TeX programs. It is unknown how they access
LaTeX (elevated rights or not, local installation or global, parallel
secondary MiKTeX or parallel TeXLive - too many possibilities). Nevertheless
an update of MiKTeX does not change any path or registry setting so other
TeX programs should work. If not they have most likely a bug or need to be
updated if they access the MiKTeX package handling. On my test system the
other TeX program "TeXworks" works fine after the update of MiKTeX.


I'm more worried that a forced package update could cause compilation in
another TeX program to fail.


You already cited my reply to your statement.

regards Uwe


Re: Update on 2.3.0 situation and Windows-specific issues

2018-03-10 Thread Uwe Stöhr

Am 11.03.2018 um 01:29 schrieb Scott Kostyshak:


I think our main point of difference is below. If the LyX 2.3.0
installer successfully installs LyX, but has a bad secondary effect, I'm
guessing you would agree that a dialog would make sense, right?


I am not the developer of MiKTeX but I see that its recent package 
handling update make problems. Please don't blame me for things I cannot 
change. It is like it is - without updating MiKTeX no LyX. And even 
worse, for some LyX users it is enough to reconfigure LyX to break 
MiKTeX. A MiKTeX update results in package updates. All not my fault.


I made the best out of it and found a solution. With this users who 
already broke their LaTeX will get it repaired.


I don't want to focus on a possible but not very probable case of a 
package on CTAN having a regression bug. If this happens, it would 
affect all users of this package, independent of the TeX distribution 
and OS. The experience is that such bugs are fixed within days because 
they affect so many.


Your argumentation is like I decided to drive with a car. If the fuel is 
empty I have to refuel it because I want to drive. No fuel - no drive. 
You argue that people can choose not to refuel. But they decided to 
drive so why should they not to refuel. (because they don't have money 
for the fuel but our fuel is for free)
MiKTeX is the fuel. Experienced users can select "never" in the MiKTeX 
settings to prevent any change of their system. If they have both 
installed, MiKTeX and TeXLive, they can also select in the LyX installer 
which TeX distribution should be used. They can even select not to use 
LaTeX at all in the installer.
So there are already 3 possible workarounds for experienced users in the 
LyX installer and these options are all translated.


> My claim comes from personal experience and from helping users.

With all respect, I doubt your first statement. From your mails I read 
out that you have never run the LyX Win installer by yourself. Otherwise 
you would know what options you can select in the installer. I also 
doubt that you are familiar with MiKTeX, its settings and options.


>- Some Windows users might use LaTeX directly, in addition to LyX.
>- Updating MiKTeX could break compilation of current documents in a TeX
  editor outside of LyX.

LyX cannot take care for other TeX programs. It is unknown how they 
access LaTeX (elevated rights or not, local installation or global, 
parallel secondary MiKTeX or parallel TeXLive - too many possibilities). 
Nevertheless an update of MiKTeX does not change any path or registry 
setting so other TeX programs should work. If not they have most likely 
a bug or need to be updated if they access the MiKTeX package handling. 
On my test system the other TeX program "TeXworks" works fine after the 
update of MiKTeX.


regards Uwe


Re: Update on 2.3.0 situation and Windows-specific issues

2018-03-10 Thread Uwe Stöhr

Am 10.03.2018 um 21:37 schrieb Uwe Stöhr:

Meanwhile I got the report that version 4 of the LyX Win installer fails 
on some 64bit Windows. I am currently working on this and will most 
probably come up with another version of the installer that fixes this.


I could fix this now. I indeed forgot to check for 64bit MiKTeX.

Version 5 of the installer fixes this and is available as usual here:
http://ftp.lyx.de/LyXWinInstaller/LyX2.3.0/

regards Uwe


Re: Update on 2.3.0 situation and Windows-specific issues

2018-03-10 Thread Uwe Stöhr

Am 11.03.2018 um 00:57 schrieb Scott Kostyshak:


If in the LyX 2.3.0 installer we provide an informative dialog, the user
might say "oh I did not know that LyX needed to update MiKTeX. I will
not install LyX now because I need to submit my paper tomorrow. After I
submit my paper, I can deal with an updated MiKTeX and fix any problems
that come from updated LaTeX packages so I will install LyX 2.3.0 at
that time".


Why do you claim that an update of MiKTeX's package handling introduces 
problems with LaTeX packages? I run all LyX files I have on my disc with 
the LyX 2.3.0 and don't get any compilation error.

I already wrote that I don't like these claims.

Why do you come up with such constructed examples? The use case of an 
installer is to install. However:


- If I have to submit a paper tomorrow I will fur sure not upgrade  the 
software. For Word or LibreOffice you won't do this as well.
- Even if you decided to install LyX 2.3.0 you made a decision - you 
want to have LyX. And with the installer you get it.
- You expect people to have a lot of background knowledge and that they 
understand English well. Both is not the case for many if not most 
users. I also don't like that I have to issue the dialog with the OK 
button because not everybody will understand what this means since 
"MiKTeX" or "package" are not common for many users. Moreover the dialog 
is only in English. I decided to pop it up because an update can take 
several minutes (for example if you run the last update a year ago or 
never run an update) and if people think nothing is happening they might 
close the installer during the update process. The installer for 2.3.1 
will of course return to the old installer behavior.


Allow me to continue your constructed case: The user denies any update 
and therefore don't get LyX 2.3.0. But he maybe reconfigure LyX 2.2.x 
and as result he cannot compile his document because LaTeX got broken. 
If he runs my LyX 2.3.0 installer he can afterwards also reconfigure his 
LyX 2.2.x without risking anything.


regards Uwe


Re: Update on 2.3.0 situation and Windows-specific issues

2018-03-10 Thread Uwe Stöhr

Am 11.03.2018 um 00:57 schrieb Scott Kostyshak:


I believe their goal is to get a working LyX, but they are not aware
that they might be paying a cost. They might not want to update MiKTeX,
and they should not expect that LyX is going to update MiKTeX. Thus,
although they might want a working LyX, they might not want their MiKTeX
to change, or at least not at that time.


Then they don't get a working LyX. That is not the idea of an installer. 
If you run such a program, you expect that it installs LyX.
So I as user of an installer already made a decision: I want to have LyX 
installed.

Sorry that I don't get your point.

I also cannot see costs. What is in your opinion the cost of having a 
working package handling system? All your personal settings are not 
touched by the update.


regards Uwe


Re: Update on 2.3.0 situation and Windows-specific issues

2018-03-10 Thread Uwe Stöhr

Am 10.03.2018 um 21:37 schrieb Uwe Stöhr:


I understand what you wrote but not your goal behind it.
I use the LyX installer to install LyX. Therefore I expect a working LyX 
afterwards.


In other words:

- we agree that users who run an installer of LyX want
 * to get LyX
 * a working LyX
So the goal for the installer is to achieve this.

- If you have another method to achieve this than the one I am using for 
the installer, please tell me the steps the installer should do and in 
what order.


I don't see another solution than what the installer I prepared does.

regards Uwe


Re: Update on 2.3.0 situation and Windows-specific issues

2018-03-10 Thread Uwe Stöhr

Am 09.03.2018 um 18:33 schrieb Scott Kostyshak:


Do you understand the argument that I, Richard, Jean-Marc, and racoon
have expressed (to those I cite, please correct me if I misrepresent
your opinion)?


I understand what you wrote but not your goal behind it.
I use the LyX installer to install LyX. Therefore I expect a working LyX 
afterwards.


What you propose it to let the user choose, but there is nothing to 
choose. If they don't want to install LyX they would not use the LyX 
installer. So if the LyX installer does what you want and let the user 
deny the update, they won't get a working LyX. But if their goal was not 
to get a working LyX then installing LyX makes no sense.



Only once both sides understand the argument of the other, without
judgement, without comparing, just *understanding*, can we actually move
to the next step of coming up with a solution.


I already have the solution and the user feedback is positive. So why do 
you think there is no solution?

task: installing results in a fully functional LyX
solution: the LyX installer I created

---

Meanwhile I got the report that version 4 of the LyX Win installer fails 
on some 64bit Windows. I am currently working on this and will most 
probably come up with another version of the installer that fixes this.


regards Uwe


Re: Update on 2.3.0 situation and Windows-specific issues

2018-03-09 Thread Uwe Stöhr

Am 09.03.2018 um 05:58 schrieb Uwe Stöhr:


Am 09.03.2018 um 05:34 schrieb Scott Kostyshak:


 From what I understand, I think we still need to come to an agreement on
whether to provide a dialog to the user asking if they would like to
either cancel the installation or proceed and have the installer update
MiKTeX.


Please, I wrote now so many mails explaining the situation! I cannot do 
more.


The feedback from user Elloh on the list encourages me to act. His 
screwed MiKTeX was the result that the installer for LyX 2.2.3 cannot 
update the system, even if you choose during the installation process to 
do so. Therefore I fear that users installing LyX 2.2.3 will get similar 
problems.


Richard, can I release a new installer for LyX 2.2.3 or do you release 
2.2.4 within few days?


thanks and regards
Uwe


Re: Update on 2.3.0 situation and Windows-specific issues

2018-03-08 Thread Uwe Stöhr

Am 09.03.2018 um 05:34 schrieb Scott Kostyshak:


 From what I understand, I think we still need to come to an agreement on
whether to provide a dialog to the user asking if they would like to
either cancel the installation or proceed and have the installer update
MiKTeX.


Please, I wrote now so many mails explaining the situation! I cannot do 
more.


regards Uwe


Re: Update on 2.3.0 situation and Windows-specific issues

2018-03-08 Thread Uwe Stöhr

Am 08.03.2018 um 22:19 schrieb Scott Kostyshak:


Unfortunately I think the MiKTeX issues also affect the installer (see
the email from Uwe on Feb. 26).


I just post that all known issues have been fixed from my Windows 
perspective. You can in my opinion go an release.


regards Uwe


Re: Solution: Summary for the Win installer problem

2018-03-08 Thread Uwe Stöhr

Am 07.03.2018 um 16:17 schrieb Uwe Stöhr:

I am going nuts. MiKTeX released now some fixes to its package handling 
but they arrived broken on the package servers. Therefore since today 
the solution we found for LyX in combination with MiKTeX doesn't work.


This was not correct. In fact MiKTeX released some bug fixes and I 
needed to adapt the solution with the update accordingly.


I released a new installer version 4 which does this:
http://ftp.lyx.de/LyXWinInstaller/LyX2.3.0/

I tested it a lot today and it works for me with all cases I can test.

Scott, from my point of view you can announce the Windows release of LyX 
2.3.0 with this version 4 of the installer.


sorry for all the inconvenience and regards
Uwe


Re: Solution: Summary for the Win installer problem

2018-03-07 Thread Uwe Stöhr

Am 07.03.2018 um 18:16 schrieb Jean-Marc Lasgouttes:


OK, I see now. But wasn't there something equivalent before that?


The console is a new concept. Before there exist 2 different programs, 
one for the settings, one for the package handling. the new console 
unites them.


What makes problems is this big update of the whole packaging system. 
Moreover, there were some bugs in the new package handling system. For 
example users having consecutive semicolon ";;" in their PATH 
environment variable could not use MiKTeX after touching it (by 
installing a package etc.)


However, this update is the biggest since 7 years. Unfortunately it 
coincides with the LyX release. I think the next days most problems and 
bugs will be fixed.


I understand that distributions are user's choice, but it 
is a pity that we can be so vulnerable to other people's bug.


That is a general problem of LyX. We rely on many third-party programs. 
If one has a bug, users get errors and blame of course LyX. We cannot 
say e.g. "sorry that you cannot compile your document anymore because of 
a bug in ImageMagick". The users' problem is to get his document to 
compile. If we are guilty or a third-party program, doesn't fix the 
users' problem.


We had problems in the past with Ghostscript, ImageMagick and even 
Python. Now we have one with MiKTeX.


After the installer for 2.3.0 I will provide an installer that uses 
Python 3.6 instead of 2.7. Since a bug in there can break LyX, I have to 
be very careful and chose this 2-stage upgrade: first LyX, IM and GS, 
then keep all third-party progs and only upgrade Python.


versions? I see that you often try to update miktex as soon as possible, 
but is it wise?


I tried this. But the oldest available miktex installer from October is 
exactly the one having the bug that makes now problems.
What will work is of course that people reinstall MikTeX using the LyX 
bundle installer because this installs a MikTeX from February containing 
the new MiKTeX console. But a reinstallation means people loose their 
personal settings.


With the version 3 of the installer I think we found the best possible 
solution where people can kep their settings and get a working LyX.


I think that explaining people how to install LaTeX themselves is the 
way to go.


My experience (even at the university with students) shows that this is 
too complex for users. They don't accept to invest an hour just to 
install a program. In the past there was no other choice and that was 
why Angus and I developed the Win installer.
The Win installer consists of so much code because there are many 
different cases to respect (has the user admin privileges, is Perl, 
Python etc., already installed. What settings are there used, What is in 
the PATH and the local PATH variable, are there other LyX installations 
that should be kept functional, ...)


The example of rupee 
that you gave later in your message is typically an example of things 
going wrong. You cannot afford to use your time to fix these issues.


MiKTeX doesn't change all the time. The current situation is an 
exception. Concerning the packages, yes I think it was worth it to 
invest time. This work is done and don't require much maintenance. Only 
for every major LyX release I check if the package list is still up to 
date or if new packages must be added or if some need to be renamed. 
This can be done within an hour.


it is so important, let's tell people to install the full textlive 
version and forget about any other problem.


Yes, this might be an option. The question is if users would accept to 
download 3 - 4 GB. With the LyX bundle installer the have already to 
download about 250 MB for the installer and 50 MB for the packages. So 
all in all about 300 MB. For a fresh installation and proper DSL speed 
the whole installation can be done in 5 minutes. For the full TeXLive I 
don't know (might depend in the mirror servers).


Why not use a distribution that has it all, to 
begin with?


Then you need the full TeXLive or the full MiKTeX. Both is possible, but 
see above for the acceptance.
What the LyX bundle installer uses is a compromise as consequence of 
many discussions with users in the past. MiKTeX provides a basic 
installation. But as it is a basic distribution, it cannot contain 
special packages. LyX grew and uses more special packages for its new 
features. Therefore a basic LaTeX distribution cannot contain everything 
people might want to use in LyX. On the other hand people opted not to 
be forced to install several GB to get a full distribution.
I think, as in most situations, one need to use a compromise. And 
compromises have disadvantages.


Incidentally, this is why the software should not update itself during 
these sessions.


In the past it did not because only the packages could be updated. 
Unless you either forced an update in the LyX installer or MiKTeX 
itself, nothing happened because the package handling system stayed 

Re: Solution: Summary for the Win installer problem

2018-03-07 Thread Uwe Stöhr

Am 07.03.2018 um 17:27 schrieb Uwe Stöhr:

I must admit that I haven't tested the 
"never" case for a long time.


I tested this now and the installer correctly respects the setting 
"never". So never means never. You don't get any updates nor packages if 
you really don't want this.
Configuring LyX seems to do nothing because the "never" option prevents 
MiKTeX to install missing packages and thus to update its build system.
However, the "never" settings is for users who know about packages and 
how they are handled.


regards Uwe



Re: Solution: Summary for the Win installer problem

2018-03-07 Thread Uwe Stöhr

Am 06.03.2018 um 16:37 schrieb Jean-Marc Lasgouttes:

In general: I have no problem in being criticized. But I have a problem 
that I am talking directly to the MiKTeX developer to find a solution 
and when I do what he proposes you are telling me that it can be done 
better.


The goal is definitely not that you become quiet, which would mean "This 
is my last word. Either you accept my solution or you have no windows 
installer".


No, it is was only my last attempt to explain the situation. I have the 
feeling that I can write pages but are not understood.


What if the user set "Install missing packages on the fly: never"? Do 
you still insist that this user should have to do a double update that 
was explicitly opted-out?


You can of course do this. Then you could assure that your LaTeX system 
won't be updated. The consequence is that if you have a missing package 
you cannot install it, because to do this, the package handling will be 
updated.
I cannot state what happens if you set "never" and configuring LyX. The 
reconfiguration invokes MiKTeX to update internally file links, to 
recreate font files etc.
I'll try this out after LyX 2.3.0 was finally released because I am 
running out of time right now. I must admit that I haven't tested the 
"never" case for a long time.


What is not clear to me is why we change the default update mechanism. 


Because of the bug. Again, the installer for LyX 2.3.0 acts different 
than all installers before because of this.


Miktex documentation explicitly recommends to use the Miktex Console to 
get updates, and does not set the update mechanism to automatic.


The MiKTeX Console (introduced around end of January) is the new update 
mechanism. Before, there was no MiKTeX Console. Also many new options 
you see in the MiKTeX docs didn't exist before and can therefore not be 
used for LyX users having older installations.



This is why we should not change a system that works


See my last mail in this thread. It is not LyX that breaks something, it 
is MiKTeX itself.


I started with Windows 2.0, then 3.0, 3.1, etc. up to windows 10 (OK, I 
skipped a few). These days I use windows 7 and windows 10 on a 
daily/weekly basis. Do I qualify?


Yes ;-) Also very good to know.
If you want to reproduce what I am talking about:
- uninstall MiKTeX
- install LyX 2.3.0RC1 bundle (Contains old MiKTeX installer from 
October); deny to update MiKTeX
- reconfigure LyX or try to compile a LyX file that uses a package you 
don't have yet.


As currently some MiKTeX packages are incompletely uploaded to the 
mirror servers, maybe today you won't notice anything because every 
MiKTeX update/installation action is currently not working. As soon as 
this is working again (hopefully tomorrow) it might be (not for sure) 
that you get a broken MiKTeX.


Today I found one of the problems, which is funny: Some MiKTeX versions 
use its update program for the update. During the update they try to 
delete this program (itself) which is of course impossible. As result 
you get a MiKTeX with still all packages there but latex cannot find 
them anymore because all links to them were not reset in the new package 
system.
This particular bug existed only during a certain time period, therefore 
especially users with an older LyX/MiKTeX installation won't see this.


I understand how frustrating the thing can be. But working alone on this 
is probably the source of many issues. It is never good to have an own 
niche where only one voice counts. We are a team, and this is where our 
strength comes from.


Sure, but then please start your Win laptops and try installing 
different MiKTeX versions to see the different results LyX users will 
get. Some won't see any problems, some will get a completely broken 
MiKTeX. Testing this costs hours - it took a long time before I could 
the first time reproduce what users reported back on our mailing lists.


Well, the OS of choice of elegant people is macOS and you cannot argue 
that they do not care that thing do not "just work". Yet, they install 
MacTeX, which come in only one size (3G), maybe the 500M of extras if 
they are very fussy and they are happy with it. It does not update, but 
once a year one can install a new one.


I won't discuss about OSes. Users made their choice. I focus on Win 
users. They have 2 options:
- they have background knowledge or the time to learn about LaTeX. They 
can setup TeXLive or MiKTeX as they like since they know what a package is.
- they just need a working LyX and are not interested in how things work 
behind LyX


The latter is the vast majority.

Are these people so different to what you describe as windows users? We 
are not talking about children here.


I work in the machine building industry. I have clever colleagues, some 
with a Ph.D. So they are not children, but they have to focus on their 
job. For example, recently I was informed on Monday that on Wednesday 
the operation manual of a new device must 

Re: Solution: Summary for the Win installer problem

2018-03-07 Thread Uwe Stöhr

Am 04.03.2018 um 19:36 schrieb Uwe Stöhr:

I would nevertheless wait with the announcement because the MiKTeX 
developer promised to make a release just for us soon. If it will be 
available by Tuesday, I will create a new installer, if not, let's 
release LyX 2.3.0 with the installer version 3 I linked above.


I am going nuts. MiKTeX released now some fixes to its package handling 
but they arrived broken on the package servers. Therefore since today 
the solution we found for LyX in combination with MiKTeX doesn't work. I 
am sorry to say that I need to wait another day until the packages are 
fixed on the servers.


I cannot remember so many troubles but that is life.

sorry and regards
Uwe


Re: Update on 2.3.0 situation and Windows-specific issues

2018-03-07 Thread Uwe Stöhr

Am 05.03.2018 um 17:58 schrieb Joel Kulesza:

At least, the way I read the step, the installer is the component not 
finding the latex.exe executable, not the LyX executable itself


Just for information:
The LyX installer searches for the latex.exe. If it cannot find it, LyX 
cannot find it as well. If it finds it, it applies the path to it for 
LyX. So the success in finding the latex.exe depends on if the installer 
could find it.


However, you can use LyX also without LaTeX. The LyX installer provides 
an option for this. This way you can try around and maybe later install 
LaTeX. A later installed LaTeX (TeXLive or MiKTeX) can be found by LyX 
if the path to the latex.exe is in the PATH environment variable. 
Therefore you must install LaTeX with admin privileges and set the 
option to modify the PATH (if your LaTeX installer has this).


regards Uwe


Re: Update on 2.3.0 situation and Windows-specific issues

2018-03-07 Thread Uwe Stöhr

Am 04.03.2018 um 16:50 schrieb Scott Kostyshak:


   The following statements are specific to Windows users:
...
   - After the installation of LyX, the MiKTeX package manager pops up. You
 can just close it.


This item can be removed. This is now fixed in MiKTeX.

regards Uwe


Re: Solution: Summary for the Win installer problem

2018-03-06 Thread Uwe Stöhr

Am 06.03.2018 um 04:47 schrieb Richard Heck:


What? So I should deliver a LyX installer leading to a broken LaTeX
that can only be fixed by reinstalling MiKTeX? That cannot be the goal!


The proposal is to *abort* the LyX installation, if the user does not
want to update. You can explain in a dialog that LyX will not work
otherwise. But you cannot screw with their system without their
permission. Really.


Here is my last attempt to explain the situation. Then I will be quiet 
because I already invested now about 20 hours in nothing else than this.


Who is affected by the following?:
- most users having either installed MiKTeX the first time between 
October and maybe mid January this year (independent if LyX was 
installed too)
- many users who use MiKTeX and updated it in the time between October 
and maybe mid January. They might run an update on their own or they 
compiled a LyX file using a missing package.



Here are the principal use cases for LyX users:

A: I am a happy user of LyX 2.2.x and are not interested to upgrade 
anything. If I get now a document from a colleague containing a LaTeX 
package I don't have yet installed, MiKTeX detects it when you compile 
the document. To be able to install the missing package, it needs to 
update its package handling system. Due to a bug this update can break 
LaTeX completely and the user is lost. None of his LyX document will be 
compilable anymore. The only solution for him is to reinstall MiKTeX and 
he looses all his personal settings, packages, BibTeX style files etc. 
and need to set them up again.
Most users don't care about the system behind LyX, they just see that 
their LyX doesn't work anymore.


B: I want to try out LyX 2.3.0. The installer tells me that I must 
upgrade MiKTeX but I deny this. When LyX is started the first time after 
the installation, it runs configure.py which in turn executes 
chklatex.ltx. This triggers MiKTeX to check for packages, missing 
packages will be installed, mf-files of fonts will be created etc. To be 
able to do this, MiKTeX will update its package handling system. The 
result is the same as for use case A.


C: I want to try out LyX 2.3.0. and use version 3 of the LyX for Windows 
installer. The installer forces an update of the package handling system 
at the right step and at this step it has the chance to repair a broken 
MiKTeX system and will do so. This solution was developed by the MiKTeX 
developer. As result, I get a fully functional LyX, all my personal 
MiKTeX settings, packages etc. will be kept.


If this doesn't make the situation clear, I give up.


> The point is that we do not affect people's systems without permission.
> Otherwise, we get reports like
>  https://latex.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=19=30919
> which is unacceptable.

Why are you claiming that the Win installer is to blame here? These 
claims are annoying.
At first the LyX installer available in January did not update MiKTeX if 
you don't want to. The problem described by the bug report is that he 
uses 2 different MiKTeX installations the same time, one is set up for 
all users, one only for the current user. Therefore they interfere. 
Maybe he installed winedt only for the current user and LyX for all 
users or the opposite. Hard to say, but of course if you have set up 
MiKTeX for all users you cannot overwrite its settings for the current 
user with another instance of MiKTeX without getting problems.


> As Scott said some time ago, it is very strange indeed if LyX's basic
> functionality breaks because of a change in some external program's
> package-handling mechanism. LyX should not be that entwined with
> external programs.

Reality is not what we wish. LyX users want to get an output of the 
documents. To get this, third-party programs are necessary like 
ImageMagick, Python, LaTeX, Ghostscript etc. If a third-party program 
has a bug, LyX users don't get an output. This happens from time to 
time. In the past there were e.g. often issues with ImageMagick and now 
we have a severe bug in MiKTeX. In most cases you are not involved 
because if there is for example a bug in a third-party program I just 
release a new installer with a version of the third-party program that 
is known to work.


-

At last a personal statement: I read in the discussions from time to 
time that some are not familiar with Windows but nevertheless they state 
what is right or wrong in their opinion. That is no base for a 
discussion. Either invest time to try it out on Windows on your own or 
trust me and the MiKTeX developer. I have other things to do on a sunny 
day than to sit at home like a nerd with 3 different PCs to test 
different installations, update states etc. to find a solution.


I also miss the view on what users need the most: a LyX that just works 
with all its features. They don't want to learn what a package is, how 
it is handled, what the cryptic package names like "marvosym" stand for, 
what 

Re: tex2lyx no longer compilable because of too many nested ifs

2018-03-06 Thread Uwe Stöhr

Am 05.03.2018 um 09:13 schrieb Jürgen Spitzmüller:


Am Sonntag, den 04.03.2018, 21:51 +0100 schrieb Uwe Stöhr:

tex2lyx in master is no longer compilable with MSVC. The reason is
that
we have now too many else if clauses in text.cpp:


Should be fixed.


Many thanks! Your solution is surprisingly straight forward.

Now I can have a look and add some more things to tex2lyx when I find time.

best regards
Uwe


Re: Solution: Summary for the Win installer problem

2018-03-05 Thread Uwe Stöhr

Am 05.03.2018 um 23:46 schrieb Richard Heck:


Uwe, even if LyX will not work without the updated installation, we
CANNOT update the user's LaTeX installation without asking for
permission---which means giving them the option to cancel the entire
install. Otherwise, we can break things, as in the thread Scott posted.


What? So I should deliver a LyX installer leading to a broken LaTeX that 
can only be fixed by reinstalling MiKTeX? That cannot be the goal!
Moreover, if users are really forced to reinstall MiKTeX they loose all 
personal settings, packages etc.


So what is preferable, a system that keeps all your personal settings, 
packages and that works of a broken system where you loose all personal 
settings?


I don't get your point. What is the problem of updating a package 
handling system? Under Linux you also have to do this if you want to be 
able to obtain packages in future.
In this case it is even worse, whenever you you decide to update 
packages by yourself and invoke MiKTeX's update manually you break your 
package handling system. So also LyX 2.2.3 users can get a broken system 
even without installing LyX. But the consequence is that they then 
cannot user LyX anymore.


regards Uwe


Re: Solution: Summary for the Win installer problem

2018-03-05 Thread Uwe Stöhr

Am 05.03.2018 um 19:37 schrieb racoon:

However, it does not give the user a choice on whether to update MiKTeX 
or not.


Yes, that is correct and I explained now in several mails why and that 
there is no other option.


Also, I noticed that the MiKTeX Package Manager opens up for some reason 
and stays open. I am not sure why that is happening.


This is another bug in MiKTeX I mentioned. There will therefore be a 
sentence I the announcement text. However, I just see that MiKTeX 
released a new installer as promised. This bug will then be fixed.


@Scott, I have no time today but will provide a new installer tomorrow.

regards Uwe


Re: Solution: Summary for the Win installer problem

2018-03-04 Thread Uwe Stöhr

Am 04.03.2018 um 18:59 schrieb Jean-Marc Lasgouttes:


So I install texlive with the medium size install


Sure, but to do this you need Internet access.

Having to wait 
until I actually use LyX to decide what packages to install would be a 
recipe for failure.


Again, the problem I had is not about updating LaTeX packages but about 
the package handling system. MiKTeX is just a distribution as TeXLive. 
Under Linux you also have different package handling systems for 
different distributions. I don't like to judge what system is better or not.


I do not understand why LyX absolutely has to have a say on whether my 
installation is good enough.


We need to install packages (hyphenation, language support, tipa, math, 
etc.) because we cannot know what features will be used by the user. 
This can only be done if the user has a working package handling system. 
As user I expect a working software and not that certain features don't 
work for reasons I don't understand. We cannot bother users with the 
system behind LyX. They want to click on View PDF and get a PDF. If not, 
they will look for alternatives and not invest some hours to learn how a 
LaTeX distribution works and how it is maintained.
Not bothering users with internal details but to create a fully 
functional LyX is since its creation the intention of the LyX Windows 
installer.


regards Uwe


tex2lyx no longer compilable because of too many nested ifs

2018-03-04 Thread Uwe Stöhr
tex2lyx in master is no longer compilable with MSVC. The reason is that 
we have now too many else if clauses in text.cpp:


  D:\LyXGit\Master\src\tex2lyx\text.cpp(5269): fatal error C1061: 
compiler limit: blocks nested too deeply 
[D:\LyXGit\Master\compile-2015\src\tex2lyx\tex2lyx.vcxproj]


This is a known limitation:
https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us//library/dcda4f64.aspx
and Georg spent in the past some time to reduce the ifs.

My knowledge in this respect is low, I only googled and found this 
workaround:


https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/315481/bug-too-many-unnested-loops-incorrectly-causes-a-c1061-compiler-error

regards Uwe


Re: Solution: Summary for the Win installer problem

2018-03-04 Thread Uwe Stöhr

Am 04.03.2018 um 16:19 schrieb Uwe Stöhr:

Good news: There will be a new MiKTeX installer soon and the MiKTeX 
maintainer proposed a workaround for the main bug. I cannot promise that 
I will find time today to check if this will work for all cases. 


OK, I could check it and it works. The new installer can be found here:
http://ftp.lyx.de/LyXWinInstaller/LyX2.3.0/

Now the users is not bothered at all. Everything that needs to be done 
is done by the installer silently.


I would nevertheless wait with the announcement because the MiKTeX 
developer promised to make a release just for us soon. If it will be 
available by Tuesday, I will create a new installer, if not, let's 
release LyX 2.3.0 with the installer version 3 I linked above.


regards Uwe


Re: Solution: Summary for the Win installer problem

2018-03-04 Thread Uwe Stöhr

Am 04.03.2018 um 16:59 schrieb Scott Kostyshak:


I don't want to write pages to describe the problematic in detail.
Summarized, the problem is that MiKTeX uses a new package handling system
and in order to use LyX with MiKTeX this new system must be used.


LyX works on Windows with a TeX Live installation, right? So why would
LyX work with TeX Live and not with an older MiKTeX installation?


Sorry, but doubting everything is a bit annoying. I already answered 
your question in the sentences you cited. I thought my example with the 
lock and the key made clear what happened and why it is not easy to find 
a solution. Yes, TeXLive users are not affected.


I explained the problematic as best as I can. Now please let me get a 
proper solution ready together with the MiKTeX maintainer.



What happens in both the case of the installer and the bundle if a user
installs LyX without being connected to the internet?


What do you want do say? That people should disconnect while installing 
LyX? And what happens afterwards?
Users with certain MiKTeX versions installed gets problems as soon he 
tries to install packages (because e.g. a document use a missing 
package), unless MiKTeX is updated. This is the bug I am talking about 
all the time.


A fully functional LyX is impossible without Internet connection because 
missing LaTeX packages must be installed via Internet. There is no 
difference between TeXLive and MiKTeX in this respect.

(polemic:
 Let's look around, even in poor countries like Tajikistan Internet is 
no problem. I only know 2 countries where Internet access is still 
extremely difficult: Cuba and North Korea. TeXLive offers a DVD for 
those without Internet but how can you order this DVD without Internet? 
Also, will it really be delivered to you?)


regards Uwe


Re: Solution: Summary for the Win installer problem

2018-03-04 Thread Uwe Stöhr

Am 04.03.2018 um 00:32 schrieb Uwe Stöhr:

As soon there is a new MiKTeX installer available I will release another 
installer


Good news: There will be a new MiKTeX installer soon and the MiKTeX 
maintainer proposed a workaround for the main bug. I cannot promise that 
I will find time today to check if this will work for all cases. 
Therefore please give me some more time before you announce.


thanks and regards
Uwe


Re: Update on 2.3.0 situation and Windows-specific issues

2018-03-03 Thread Uwe Stöhr

Am 03.03.2018 um 21:26 schrieb Scott Kostyshak:


   - If you have a problem compiling the document Help > User Guide after
 installation, consider uninstalling LyX and MiKTeX, and then using
 the LyX *bundle* installer, which will automatically reinstall
 MiKTeX.


Please replace this point by the text I just sent in my mail with the 
solution.


regards Uwe


Re: Summary for the Win installer problem

2018-03-03 Thread Uwe Stöhr

Am 03.03.2018 um 19:24 schrieb Scott Kostyshak:


I have a similar concern to Richard (and a similar disclaimer that I
don't know much about Windows). Even if what you put is the case, I
would prefer for the LyX installer to just give an error such as "Cannot
install LyX without the newest version of MiKTeX. Please update your
MiKTeX installation as follows: ..."


This won't work. MiKTeX must be updated in every case. If you don't want 
LyX to force this, the user has to do this. But this is beyond the 
knowledge of an average user. (2 update runs are necessary, repositories 
must be defined, if users click in the first runs on the wrong options 
they break MiKTeX and then MiKTeX must be reinstalled)


In general, as a user I expect a program just to run, I want to use 
programs and not learn how they work internally. For example I just use 
LibreOffice and don't care how their extension management, XML handling, 
spell checking or whatever works internally. Either it works or I hat to 
use another program. I mean _users_ just _use_ and e.g. at work you have 
even no other choice - you must deliver your texts in time and cannot 
fiddle around reading newsgroups etc.


Trust me, I spent many hours now with this problem and the solution I 
presented assures that LyX will be fully functional for MiKTeX users and 
it is the most convenient way. The only other way would be to force 
people to uninstall MiKTeX before LyX can be installed. but them users 
would loose their personal settings, special packages etc.


regards Uwe


Solution: Summary for the Win installer problem

2018-03-03 Thread Uwe Stöhr

Am 02.03.2018 um 20:16 schrieb Uwe Stöhr:

- Conclusion: I cannot do more right now to wait until MiKTeX releases 
the fixes  for the 2 bugs.


Here is the solution in form of a new installer:
http://ftp.lyx.de/LyXWinInstaller/LyX2.3.0/

I don't want to write pages to describe the problematic in detail. 
Summarized, the problem is that MiKTeX uses a new package handling 
system and in order to use LyX with MiKTeX this new system must be used. 
Therefore existing MiKTeX installations must be updated. Unfortunately 
the normal update mechanism fails due to a bug in the MiKTeX installer 
that was released in October last year and the MiKTeX maintainer cannot 
fix this. Affected by this bug are most users who installed or updated 
MiKTeX between October and January.


The only solution is to force 2 graphical update runs on MiKTeX where 
the users just have to click in summary 4 times "Next". Not nice but 
there is definitely no other way.
I expect some users not to click on Next but maybe on Cancel or Close. 
Those will get in some cases as result a unusable MiKTeX installation. 
Therefore we need this text in the release notes and the announcement mail:

"
If you cannot get a PDF from a LyX file after installing LyX 2.3.0 under 
Windows and the error message you get is that "paths must not contain 
spaces" or similar, you must do the following:

1. uninstall LyX 2.3.0
2. uninstall MiKTeX
3. reinstall LyX 2.3.0 using the bundle installer
"

As soon there is a new MiKTeX installer available I will release another 
installer because this will fix 2 minor bugs (for example that on some 
installations the MiKTeX package manager pops up unexpectedly).


regards Uwe


Re: Summary for the Win installer problem

2018-03-02 Thread Uwe Stöhr

Am 02.03.2018 um 20:59 schrieb Richard Heck:


I don't know a lot about Windows, but let me just ask: Do we really want
to force people to upgrade some other package when they install LyX?


As I wrote in a previous post, the thing is that MiKTeX released in 
February a new package handling system. In order to be able to set up 
LyX the LyX installer needs to use this new system and therefore MiKTeX 
needs to be updated.
If the LyX installer would not force the update LyX can be installed for 
users who run the MiKTeX update manually already but not for users who 
e.g. updated MiKTeX the last time when LyX 2.2.3 was released.


The LaTeX packages are not important. They can be older versions.

regards Uwe


Re: [LyX/master] configure.py: fix bug #11053

2018-03-02 Thread Uwe Stöhr

Am 02.03.2018 um 20:39 schrieb José Abílio Matos:

This is mater of style, but personally I think that the next option is 
more readable:...


Hello José,

fine with me. All I did was to find the missing " and adding them.

Please change the line as you like and commit to master. I will backport 
your changed file to the other branches afterwards.


thanks and regards
Uwe



Summary for the Win installer problem

2018-03-02 Thread Uwe Stöhr

Here is the final analysis:

- there is definitely no Virus or so, these false positives can be ignored

- there is a bug in LyX we need to fix:
https://www.lyx.org/trac/ticket/11053

- I created a new installer that forces a silent MiKTeX update. This 
assures that every user gets the current MiKTeX package handling system.


- there are 2 bugs in MiKTeX that make problems:

* this one is already fixed but the fix it not yet published (only few 
user will be affected):

https://github.com/MiKTeX/miktex/issues/73

* this one causes the problem LyX users reported (everyone will be 
affected who had MiKTeX already installed before installing LyX 2.3.0):

https://github.com/MiKTeX/miktex/issues/82


- Conclusion: I cannot do more right now to wait until MiKTeX releases 
the fixes  for the 2 bugs.


Sorry and regards
Uwe


Re: Tar balls and binaries have been uploaded

2018-03-02 Thread Uwe Stöhr

Am 02.03.2018 um 08:14 schrieb racoon:


I am quite sure that MiKTeX wasn't the problem in my case.


Well, I worked a lot:

- I asked now as many friends as possible to installer. Nobody had a 
problem but except of one they all installed MiKTeX the first time 
together with LyX. The other one, who had the old MiKTeX, had no problem.


- I own 3 PCs and only hade one problem. Only if one has the old MiKTeX 
and run the update once there is the problem that the automatic package 
installation does not work. But this affects only documents for which 
one needs a LaTeX package that is not yet installed. So in effect this 
is a very rare case and normal users won't see it.


- I checked the installer and my PC with which I build the installer 
with ClamWin and Norton AntiVirus - no viruses or similar found.


So how should I proceed? What people report is a bit obscure for me. 
There is no recipe to reproduce a bug.


Polemic: In general, anti Virus programs make problems and are annoying 
for use developers. These programs block things that are allowed by 
Windows and that are even necessary to install a program. Except of 
CamAV all AV programs are closed source and nobody knows what they 
actually do why and what they report back to their companies. Moreover 
they break for example HTTPS connections and are therefore a security risk:

http://www.zdnet.com/article/google-and-mozillas-message-to-av-and-security-firms-stop-trashing-https/
Also Google itself does not recommend to use AV software as main step 
for security:

https://security.googleblog.com/2015/07/new-research-comparing-how-security.html

Conclusion: I'll invest some more time to force the MiKTeX update to 
avoid the problem I can reproduce. Nevertheless, In my opinion the 
existing installer is ready to be announced because only few users in a 
rare case are affected from an issue with MiKTeX. But they can always 
work. TeXLive users don't have this MiKTeX-only feature.


Scott, for the announcement I propose to write that users who have 
problems of getting the UserGuide compiled to a PDF should

- uninstall LyX _and_ MiKTeX
- install LyX 2.3.0 using the bundle installer that will automatically 
reinstall MiKTeX


regards Uwe


Re: Tar balls and binaries have been uploaded

2018-03-01 Thread Uwe Stöhr

Am 28.02.2018 um 10:25 schrieb racoon:


Strange. I just ran the installer again and now it works.


Have you run MiKTeX update on every run of the installer as the 
installer suggested? If so your virus scanner is not to blame.


I have not yet a solution for this other than to reinstall MiKTeX. That 
MiKTeX changed 3 weeks ago (therefore the RC2 installer has no issues) 
the packaging system one can describe the problem like this:


The LyX installer uses a "key" for the "lock" of the package handling. 
Since the lock was replaced, the installer needs a new key. This key 
works for an updated MiKTeX but not for the old one. On top of this 
problem comes that one needs 2 runs of the MiKTeX update to get the new 
packaging system (lock). And even more there is a bug in the new 
packaging system of MiKTeX and the MiKTeX maintainer is currently away.


The LyX installer has no chance to detect what MiKTeX packaging system 
is used on the PC. I think the only way is to build a special installer 
for LyX 2.3.0 that forces 2 update runs of MiKTeX. This will assure the 
success but annoys the user since maybe they already updated and 2 dry 
update runs can consume up to 4 minutes installation time in which 
nothing happens. I know how annoyed users are by every single button 
click they have to do unnecessarily. They will be confronted with 8 
additional clicks because of the mentioned bug in MiKTeX. I think 
assuring a working installation is more important but if they refuse to 
do all the clicks I cannot force 2 update runs.


Give me some time to think about this.

regards Uwe


Re: Tar balls and binaries have been uploaded

2018-03-01 Thread Uwe Stöhr

Am 01.03.2018 um 17:18 schrieb Scott Kostyshak:


If this is the cause of all the problems, I guess all we can do is put
a note in the announcement. I do not think we can officially recommend
disabling anti-virus during the installation, but at least we can
explain the situation.


I am opposed to this. This is bad advertisement. We deliver a fully 
functional product. There will always be cases with problems restricted 
to software used by some persons. We should not announce this! I mean 
look in the forums of e.g. LibreOffice or InkScape for virus alarms, 
mangled registry settings and the like. Such cases will always happen. 
We are only responsible to things done by the product we deliver.


regards Uwe


Re: Tar balls and binaries have been uploaded

2018-02-28 Thread Uwe Stöhr

> Strange. I just ran the installer again and now it works.

The installer checks the Windows registry to locate LaTeX program. If you have 
MiKTeX or TeXLive  installed but the installer cannot find it, your virus 
scanner blocks that the installer have read access to the registry. This should 
not happen but virus scanners ate often over eager. Blocking read permission 
makes no sense in my opinion.

In general I cannot recommend using virus scanners because the make make 
problems than they solve. I am not using such scanners for years now and I am 
virus-free nevertheless. The best way to stay safe us to use consequently only 
non-admin accounts. If you need to install things that should be available for 
all users of the PC, allow elevated rights only for the installer. Thus way 
virus programs cannot modify e.g. the registry. Only if there are bugs in 
Windows itself, this method can be unsafe but in this case also virus scanners 
don't help. 

Just my opinion. 

Many thanks fir testing and best regards
 Uwe 


CMake issues for LyX 2.3.0

2018-02-26 Thread Uwe Stöhr
I could successfully build LyX 2.3.0 from the tarball and the installer 
is ready. Nevertheless there are some issues in CMake that we should 
consider to change:


- after the compilation I get a subfolder named "LYX_INSTALLED". it 
contains everything one needs to build the installer, except of two folders:

 ~\LYX_INSTALLED\Resources\dicts
 ~\LYX_INSTALLED\Resources\thes
both folders should be empty (will later be filled when the user 
installs dictionaries), but they must exist. Currently I create them by 
myself. In order to avoid problems CMake should create these 2 empty 
folders automatically.


- the default in CMake for LYX_USE_QT is still Qt4, it should be Qt5

- I set the CMAKE_PREFIX_PATH and CMake finds then automatically all Qt 
libraries (see the attached screenshot). It does not find 
QT_QMAKE_EXECUTABLE why? On my PC it is here:

C:\Qt\Qt5.9.4\5.9.4\msvc2015\bin

- there are some other settings I don't understand, see the blue boxes 
in the attached screenshot. So for example ZLIB was found but ZLIB_FOUND 
is empty. The same is for MYTHES and HUNSPELL.
CMake checks for a doxygen executable. Is this really necessary or can 
this be removed?

What program is "Magic"?
Qt5X11Extras does not exist on Windows. Therefore CMake should not 
search for it, if this is technically possible.


- in the attached screenshot you also see some CMake warnings. If we can 
ignore them, then we should use the -Wno-dev flag as suggested by the 
warning text.


many thanks and regards
Uwe


Re: [LyX/2.3.x] Update ANNOUNCE for 2.3.0

2018-02-23 Thread Uwe Stöhr

Am 23.02.2018 um 04:03 schrieb Scott Kostyshak:


Uwe, I included the same note that we did for 2.2.0, mentioning that if you
installed a pre-release, you should uninstall those versions. Is this
still the correct note?


Yes, this is still correct.
My experience is that some users e.g. only tested beta1 but not an RC or 
RC1 but not RC2. This caused often troubles. A reinstall is the clean 
solution and only takes a minute -much less than writing an email when 
experiencing troubles.


regards Uwe


Re: New policy for 2.3.x branch

2018-02-20 Thread Uwe Stöhr

Am 20.02.2018 um 22:03 schrieb Scott Kostyshak:


even for documentation
or changing comments or whitespace, be posted to the list explicitly
saying why it should be included for 2.3.0. The only exceptions to this
are po files and lib/layouttranslations.


Hi Scott,

I would like to allow also documentation changes that only affect a 
certain language. For example Yesterday I got a ru.po update together 
with some updated links in a Russian doc file. I think such changes can 
go in unless the whole branch is frozen. I mean our translators invest 
their time and could be disappointed that some updates did make it to 
the final release.


regards Uwe


Re: [LyX/2.3.x] layouttranslations and uk.po: corrections from Yuri

2018-02-20 Thread Uwe Stöhr

Am 20.02.2018 um 19:27 schrieb Scott Kostyshak:


Uwe, will you have time to fix this issue soon?


it should be fixed now, please test.

regards Uwe


Re: [LyX/2.3.x] layouttranslations and uk.po: corrections from Yuri

2018-02-20 Thread Uwe Stöhr
> After deleting the offending character I see new changes in el & uk, 
which went uncommitted.


I installed now the polib python extension and tried to generate 
layouttranslations. After removing the BOM I get this error:


File "C:\Program Files (x86)\Python36-32\lib\encodings\cp1252.py", line 
19, in encode

return codecs.charmap_encode(input,self.errors,encoding_table)[0]
  UnicodeEncodeError: 'charmap' codec can't encode character '\ufeff' 
in position 0: character maps to 


so without the BOM CP-1252 is detected instead of Unicode.

Nevertheless I was able to fix it but don't know how. Please test if it 
is now fixed for you as well.


I also fixed now ar.po.

thanks and regards
Uwe


Re: [LyX/2.3.x] layouttranslations and uk.po: corrections from Yuri

2018-02-20 Thread Uwe Stöhr

Am 20.02.2018 um 00:06 schrieb Uwe Stöhr:

is encoded in UTF-8 with BOM. So maybe the first character you see is 
the BOM:


I first realized it thanks to your report. I found out that this is the 
default setting of my text editor when saving as UTF-8. For me on 
Windows the BOM is a good ideas because other programs get the 
information that the text/file is UTF-8 and not CP-1252-encoded.


However, if the BOM makes problems, please tell me that I know and 
remove it from layouttranslations.


-

It seems that my replies to the lyx-devel list are no longer 
transferred. Moreover I can also not see Pavel's initial post there.

(Maybe there is just an issue with my news server settings or firewall.)

thanks and regards
Uwe


Re: [LyX/2.3.x] layouttranslations and uk.po: corrections from Yuri

2018-02-19 Thread Uwe Stöhr

Am 20.02.2018 um 00:00 schrieb Pavel Sanda:


Uwe, you are likely committing some crap, look at the first character on the 
first line.


Hi Pavel,

I don't like this sound. I don't commit crap, maybe I made a mistake.
In this case I cannot see a problem. The file I committed is correct. It 
is encoded in UTF-8 with BOM. So maybe the first character you see is 
the BOM:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byte_order_mark#UTF-8

I tested that the layouttranslations works with LyX before I committed.

regards Uwe


Re: Lost translators

2018-02-19 Thread Uwe Stöhr

Am 19.02.2018 um 03:07 schrieb Scott Kostyshak:


I've found the Hungarian translator, and sent him an email to a
different email address. If he is still interested in doing
translations, I will updated his email address. But what if he is no
longer interested?


Alex quit LyX when he became a father due to lack of time. Maybe he has 
now time again. Let's see.



I cannot find a new email address for Zoran T. Filipović (the former
Serbian translator),


The last time I got a mail from him from
zoran-dot-filipovic-at-yahoo.com


and I cannot find a new email address for Ramon
Flores (the name is common which makes searching difficult).


The last time I contacted him under fa2ramon-at-usc.es unfortunately 
this address is dead since 5 years.



For the case of the Galician translation, there is an entry for
"Language-Team" which has as value "g...@li.org". Should we email that
address to see if someone else is interested in helping with
translations?


This is a good idea.

regards Uwe



Re: Plan for final steps of 2.3.0 release

2018-02-12 Thread Uwe Stöhr

Am 13.02.2018 um 00:19 schrieb Scott Kostyshak:


I agree that the 2.3. branch is stable I used it recently for a larger
document. The strange, random Win-only crash is annoying but we cannot do
much right now.


Just to make sure, the crash you're talking about also exists for 2.2.x,
right?


Yes, but there the bug appears less often. This is of course just a 
feeling since it is a random crash. However, it only appears when 
working with documents containing Latin and non-Latin content. For pure 
e.g. Cyrillic content it does not occur. So only people like me might 
see it, not the average user.



https://www.lyx.org/trac/ticket/9139


I don't see the advantage of doing this at a major version. Even if
there is an advantage, I don't think that so soon before the final
release is the right time for this non-trivial patch. From what I
understand, this temporary file name stuff is tricky. I know you've
tested the patch and it works for you, but I'm worried there could be
hidden problems.


In my opinion a major version should contain all major bugfixes. Here we 
have a menu entry for a feature that doesn't work. This is no good 
advertisement for LyX.
We have a working fix that is well tested on Windows. If we know that it 
works also well on MacOS I think it is safe. Jürgen, please correct me 
if I am wrong.


regards Uwe


Re: Plan for final steps of 2.3.0 release

2018-02-12 Thread Uwe Stöhr

Am 10.02.2018 um 19:51 schrieb Scott Kostyshak:


I'm planning to be more strict now on which bug fixes go in for 2.3.0. I
might prefer that even a simple bug fix not be committed, unless it
fixes an important bug.


Hello Scott,

I agree that the 2.3. branch is stable I used it recently for a larger 
document. The strange, random Win-only crash is annoying but we cannot 
do much right now.


I had today a look for potential things that should go in before LyX 
2.3.0 and I think

https://www.lyx.org/trac/ticket/9139
is worth it.
The feature of pasting from TeX had been broken under Windows for years 
(maybe since ever) therefore a new major version is the right point to 
introduce this feature also for Windows users.


I distributed now all changes in the docs and despite there are still 
things to document I would wait unless you say I should use the time 
update the docs until the last hour before the release.


regards Uwe


Re: LyX version 2.3.0rc2 available

2018-02-01 Thread Uwe Stöhr

Am 01.02.2018 um 18:21 schrieb Scott Kostyshak:


On Thu, Feb 01, 2018 at 02:14:34PM +, emile lunardon wrote:

LyX for Windows offers incomplete support for non-TeX fonts. This is the
case, for example, of the Gyre Schola font, which although proposed by
Miktex 2.9 , is unknown to LyX 2.3 RC2 (this is not the case of LyX 2.3
compiled under Linux Ubuntu 16.04).


I cannot reproduce this. After you installed the package "tex-gyre" 
using MiKTeX's package manager you have to reconfigure LyX (menu 
Tools->Reconfigure) and then you can select it as roman font.


By the way I see that TeX Gyre provides in the meantime also math fonts. 
Support for them cannot be added for LyX 2.3 because this will be a file 
format change.


regards Uwe


Re: r41164 - www-user/trunk/farm/cookbook/LyX

2018-01-29 Thread Uwe Stöhr

Am 29.01.2018 um 06:04 schrieb rgh...@lyx.org:


Author: rgheck
Date: Mon Jan 29 06:04:55 2018
New Revision: 41164
URL: http://www.lyx.org/trac/changeset/41164

>

-$branch_tag = "2.2.x";
+$branch_tag = "master";


Hello Richard,

I think this page should show the translations of the current released 
branch, not master.


regards Uwe


Re: 2.3.0rc2 tar balls have been uploaded

2018-01-29 Thread Uwe Stöhr

Am 29.01.2018 um 04:53 schrieb Scott Kostyshak:


   ftp://ftp.lyx.org/pub/lyx/devel/lyx-2.3/lyx-2.3.0rc2/

Packagers, please send me your binaries.


Here is the Win build:

http://ftp.lyx.de/LyXWinInstaller/LyX2.3.0-RC2/

regards Uwe


Re: Freezing 2.3.x branch today (Sunday) at 22:00 UTC

2018-01-28 Thread Uwe Stöhr

Am 28.01.2018 um 06:58 schrieb Scott Kostyshak:


Please do not commit anything to the 2.3.x branch after 22:00 UTC today
(Sunday). I would like to do the final testing and preparation for
2.3.0rc2.


Sh... I saw this too late.

Sorry and regards
Uwe


Re: Release 2.3.0rc2 with Qt 5.9.4?

2018-01-23 Thread Uwe Stöhr

Am 23.01.2018 um 19:18 schrieb Scott Kostyshak:


Qt 5.9.4 was released today:

   http://blog.qt.io/blog/2018/01/23/qt-5-9-4-released/


Many thanks. I upgraded and can compile LyX with it. I also built an 
installer using current 2.3.x branch and all tests were passed.

However,
https://www.lyx.org/trac/ticket/10848
remains. It might be a bug in LyX and not in Qt.


Uwe, since we have caught problems in the past this way, can I send you
a tar ball from 2.3.0rc2 so that you can see if there is any problem
when generating a binary from it?


Yes please.


I'm still hoping to go forward with releasing rc2 this weekend.


Very good. Can the translator be sure that no string will be changed 
afterwards (except for a bugfixes of course)?


thanks and regards
Uwe


Re: Email to translators on Sunday, rc2 two weeks after

2018-01-16 Thread Uwe Stöhr

Am 15.01.2018 um 19:18 schrieb Scott Kostyshak:


I think there are still changes in beamer.lyx. Should those be
distributed?


Thanks for the hint. Most were already distributed. I accepted now the 
changed and fixed a compilation error in the French beamer.lyx


regards Uwe


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