Re: [LyX/master] Fix Ticket #9741 misleading name for font-encoding setting "default".

[Guenter Milde]

On 2016-10-23, Jürgen Spitzmüller wrote:

> [-- Type: text/plain, Encoding: quoted-printable --]

> Am Sonntag, den 23.10.2016, 08:45 +0200 schrieb Jürgen Spitzmüller:
>> In the meantime, could you please revert your original change? I
>> think
>> it is clear that we will change the strings, but differently.

> Since you didn't do it, I did.

Thank you.

Günter

Re: [LyX/master] Fix Ticket #9741 misleading name for font-encoding setting "default".

[Jürgen Spitzmüller]

Am Sonntag, den 23.10.2016, 08:45 +0200 schrieb Jürgen Spitzmüller:
> In the meantime, could you please revert your original change? I
> think
> it is clear that we will change the strings, but differently.

Since you didn't do it, I did.

Jürgen

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Re: [LyX/master] Fix Ticket #9741 misleading name for font-encoding setting "default".

[Guenter Milde]

On 2016-10-22, Guenter Milde wrote:
> On 2016-10-22, Enrico Forestieri wrote:
>> On Sat, Oct 22, 2016 at 05:16:49PM +0200, Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote:

>>> How bad can it become for someone who has changed the [lyrc.fontenc]
>>> setting?

...

>> However, more damage can result if one selected T2A as a default
>> and the default setting is converted to T1 due to lack of that info.

> This will normally not hurt, as LyX automatically adds T2A font encoding for
> Cyrillic characters. 

> The only (hypothetical) instance would be the selection in the
> user preamble of a font that only exists in T2A encoding in documents with
> parts in a Latin-written language.

However, problems may arise for the rare case of a user preferring/requiring
a non-standard font encoding like LY1.

Günter

Re: [LyX/master] Fix Ticket #9741 misleading name for font-encoding setting "default".

[Jürgen Spitzmüller]

Am Samstag, den 22.10.2016, 18:02 + schrieb Guenter Milde:
> > The first option (which should be the default, IMHO) uses whatever
> font
> > encoding is considered appropriate for the given language(s) and
> > backend. We determine that via the fontenc option in languages.
>   
>   Please also take into account the font setting itself: [Default]
> should
>   trigger OT1 and (for languages expecting something different) a
> warning
>   unless we know the class selects an appropriate font.

You probably mean [Automatic] here.

We can implement whatever is considered necessary in that routine. This
is analoguous to the "Automatic" babel/polyglossia thing we already
have.

In the meantime, could you please revert your original change? I think
it is clear that we will change the strings, but differently.

Jürgen

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Re: [LyX/master] Fix Ticket #9741 misleading name for font-encoding setting "default".

[Guenter Milde]

On 2016-10-22, Jürgen Spitzmüller wrote:

> [-- Type: text/plain, Encoding: quoted-printable --]

> Am Samstag, den 22.10.2016, 16:37 +0200 schrieb Jean-Marc Lasgouttes:
>> Le 22/10/2016 à 13:40, Enrico Forestieri a écrit :
>> > Moreover, we add a new entry "LyX Default", which corresponds
>> > to what is now the default (i.e, load fontenc with the value
>> > specified
>> > in Tools->Preferences->Output->LaTeX).

>> I still wonder why we should keep this preference.

> Me, too. I opt for removing it and giving the user the possibility to
> select from the following:

> LaTeX Font Encoding Selection:Automatic
>   Custom
>   None

Sounds reasonable.

> The first option (which should be the default, IMHO) uses whatever font
> encoding is considered appropriate for the given language(s) and
> backend. We determine that via the fontenc option in languages.
  
  Please also take into account the font setting itself: [Default] should
  trigger OT1 and (for languages expecting something different) a warning
  unless we know the class selects an appropriate font.
  

> Custom would be all the user set himself and ignores all fontenc
> suggestions

> None would not do any fontenc calls whatsoever.

Günter

Re: [LyX/master] Fix Ticket #9741 misleading name for font-encoding setting "default".

[Guenter Milde]

On 2016-10-22, Enrico Forestieri wrote:
> On Sat, Oct 22, 2016 at 05:05:04PM +0200, Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote:

>> Le 22/10/2016 à 16:58, Enrico Forestieri a écrit :
>> > > I still wonder why we should keep this preference.
>> > 
>> > Good observation. I think for backward compatibility. Otherwise we
>> > don't know what was the old default. Suppose that a user unchecked
>> > that preference, meaning that no fontenc is loaded. If we miss this
>> > info, we should convert an old [Default] to T1 (the old default),
>> > thus screwing up old documents. The same if instead that was changed
>> > to OT1, for example.

>> I think that at some point we should remove it and describe what to do in
>> Release Notes for existing documents. What I do not know is whether a few
>> people will face much work to get their documents in good shape again.

> If you ask me, I think that 99.99% of users didn't change that default.
> If someone was needing a different encoding, it is much more likely that
> he stumbled upon the custom setting in the document settings dialog
> rather than that setting in the preferences.

I'd be cautious with such estimates. After all, the document specific
setting is just 8 years old and the 8 years before changing the
LyX wide default was the only option.

Users may have set it and never thougth about it for ages.

OTOH, even a 2012 an answer at stackexcange did only know about the global
setting. (I added a comment about the per-document setting when stumbling
across it yesterday.)

Günter

Re: [LyX/master] Fix Ticket #9741 misleading name for font-encoding setting "default".

[Guenter Milde]

On 2016-10-22, Enrico Forestieri wrote:
> On Sat, Oct 22, 2016 at 05:16:49PM +0200, Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote:
>> Le 22/10/2016 à 17:15, Enrico Forestieri a écrit :
>> > If you ask me, I think that 99.99% of users didn't change that default.
>> > If someone was needing a different encoding, it is much more likely that
>> > he stumbled upon the custom setting in the document settings dialog
>> > rather than that setting in the preferences.

>> How bad can it become for someone who has changed the setting?

> The main differences between OT1 and T1 are explained here:
> http://tex.stackexchange.com/questions/664/why-should-i-use-usepackaget1fontenc

> If one changed it to OT1, now he would find that bitmapped fonts are
> being used. Most probably he did that for getting vector fonts and
> now his workaround is defeated.

This is something we could/should address in [Automatic].

> However, more damage can result if one selected T2A as a default
> and the default setting is converted to T1 due to lack of that info.

This will normally not hurt, as LyX automatically adds T2A font encoding for
Cyrillic characters. 
The only (hypothetical) instance would be the selection in the
user preamble of a font that only exists in T2A encoding in documents with
parts in a Latin-written language.

Günter

Re: [LyX/master] Fix Ticket #9741 misleading name for font-encoding setting "default".

[Jürgen Spitzmüller]

Am Samstag, den 22.10.2016, 18:41 +0200 schrieb Enrico Forestieri:
> The main differences between OT1 and T1 are explained here:
> http://tex.stackexchange.com/questions/664/why-should-i-use-usepackag
> et1fontenc
> 
> If one changed it to OT1, now he would find that bitmapped fonts are
> being used. Most probably he did that for getting vector fonts and
> now his workaround is defeated.
> 
> However, more damage can result if one selected T2A as a default
> and the default setting is converted to T1 due to lack of that info.

If we use automatic setting as default, as I suggested, I don't think
that anything really serious can happen.

Jürgen

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Re: [LyX/master] Fix Ticket #9741 misleading name for font-encoding setting "default".

[Enrico Forestieri]

On Sat, Oct 22, 2016 at 05:16:49PM +0200, Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote:

> Le 22/10/2016 à 17:15, Enrico Forestieri a écrit :
> > If you ask me, I think that 99.99% of users didn't change that default.
> > If someone was needing a different encoding, it is much more likely that
> > he stumbled upon the custom setting in the document settings dialog
> > rather than that setting in the preferences.
> 
> How bad can it become for someone who has changed the setting?

The main differences between OT1 and T1 are explained here:
http://tex.stackexchange.com/questions/664/why-should-i-use-usepackaget1fontenc

If one changed it to OT1, now he would find that bitmapped fonts are
being used. Most probably he did that for getting vector fonts and
now his workaround is defeated.

However, more damage can result if one selected T2A as a default
and the default setting is converted to T1 due to lack of that info.

-- 
Enrico

Re: [LyX/master] Fix Ticket #9741 misleading name for font-encoding setting "default".

[Guillaume Munch]

Le 22/10/2016 à 17:16, Jean-Marc Lasgouttes a écrit :

Le 22/10/2016 à 17:15, Enrico Forestieri a écrit :

If you ask me, I think that 99.99% of users didn't change that default.
If someone was needing a different encoding, it is much more likely that
he stumbled upon the custom setting in the document settings dialog
rather than that setting in the preferences.


How bad can it become for someone who has changed the setting?



The setting can just be deprecated and hidden, instead of removed
straight away. New versions of LyX would save the former global default
with the file after conversion.

The only bad case is if the file is open and converted on an
installation with a global setting the document was not made for. But
this is only the issue we already have.

Re: [LyX/master] Fix Ticket #9741 misleading name for font-encoding setting "default".

[Jean-Marc Lasgouttes]

Le 22/10/2016 à 17:15, Enrico Forestieri a écrit :

If you ask me, I think that 99.99% of users didn't change that default.
If someone was needing a different encoding, it is much more likely that
he stumbled upon the custom setting in the document settings dialog
rather than that setting in the preferences.


How bad can it become for someone who has changed the setting?

JMarc

Re: [LyX/master] Fix Ticket #9741 misleading name for font-encoding setting "default".

[Enrico Forestieri]

On Sat, Oct 22, 2016 at 05:05:04PM +0200, Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote:

> Le 22/10/2016 à 16:58, Enrico Forestieri a écrit :
> > > I still wonder why we should keep this preference.
> > 
> > Good observation. I think for backward compatibility. Otherwise we
> > don't know what was the old default. Suppose that a user unchecked
> > that preference, meaning that no fontenc is loaded. If we miss this
> > info, we should convert an old [Default] to T1 (the old default),
> > thus screwing up old documents. The same if instead that was changed
> > to OT1, for example.
> 
> I think that at some point we should remove it and describe what to do in
> Release Notes for existing documents. What I do not know is whether a few
> people will face much work to get their documents in good shape again.

If you ask me, I think that 99.99% of users didn't change that default.
If someone was needing a different encoding, it is much more likely that
he stumbled upon the custom setting in the document settings dialog
rather than that setting in the preferences. 

-- 
Enrico

Re: [LyX/master] Fix Ticket #9741 misleading name for font-encoding setting "default".

[Jean-Marc Lasgouttes]

Le 22/10/2016 à 16:58, Enrico Forestieri a écrit :

I still wonder why we should keep this preference.


Good observation. I think for backward compatibility. Otherwise we
don't know what was the old default. Suppose that a user unchecked
that preference, meaning that no fontenc is loaded. If we miss this
info, we should convert an old [Default] to T1 (the old default),
thus screwing up old documents. The same if instead that was changed
to OT1, for example.


I think that at some point we should remove it and describe what to do 
in Release Notes for existing documents. What I do not know is whether a 
few people will face much work to get their documents in good shape again.


JMarc

Re: [LyX/master] Fix Ticket #9741 misleading name for font-encoding setting "default".

[Jürgen Spitzmüller]

Am Samstag, den 22.10.2016, 16:37 +0200 schrieb Jean-Marc Lasgouttes:
> Le 22/10/2016 à 13:40, Enrico Forestieri a écrit :
> > Moreover, we add a new entry "LyX Default", which corresponds
> > to what is now the default (i.e, load fontenc with the value
> > specified
> > in Tools->Preferences->Output->LaTeX).
> 
> I still wonder why we should keep this preference.

Me, too. I opt for removing it and giving the user the possibility to
select from the following:

LaTeX Font Encoding Selection:  Automatic
Custom
None

The first option (which should be the default, IMHO) uses whatever font
encoding is considered appropriate for the given language(s) and
backend. We determine that via the fontenc option in languages.

Custom would be all the user set himself and ignores all fontenc
suggestions

None would not do any fontenc calls whatsoever.

Jürgen

> 
> JMarc
> 

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Re: [LyX/master] Fix Ticket #9741 misleading name for font-encoding setting "default".

[Enrico Forestieri]

On Sat, Oct 22, 2016 at 04:37:04PM +0200, Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote:

> Le 22/10/2016 à 13:40, Enrico Forestieri a écrit :
> > Moreover, we add a new entry "LyX Default", which corresponds
> > to what is now the default (i.e, load fontenc with the value specified
> > in Tools->Preferences->Output->LaTeX).
> 
> I still wonder why we should keep this preference.

Good observation. I think for backward compatibility. Otherwise we
don't know what was the old default. Suppose that a user unchecked
that preference, meaning that no fontenc is loaded. If we miss this
info, we should convert an old [Default] to T1 (the old default),
thus screwing up old documents. The same if instead that was changed
to OT1, for example.

OTOH, that global preference is dangerous, because if someone sends
you a document expecting a given fontenc (achieved by the sender by
changing this pref) and you have a different default, everything may
screw up. So, having this as a globlal preference is not ideal,
apparently.

-- 
Enrico

Re: [LyX/master] Fix Ticket #9741 misleading name for font-encoding setting "default".

[Jean-Marc Lasgouttes]

Le 22/10/2016 à 13:40, Enrico Forestieri a écrit :

Moreover, we add a new entry "LyX Default", which corresponds
to what is now the default (i.e, load fontenc with the value specified
in Tools->Preferences->Output->LaTeX).


I still wonder why we should keep this preference.

JMarc

Re: [LyX/master] Fix Ticket #9741 misleading name for font-encoding setting "default".

[Enrico Forestieri]

On Fri, Oct 21, 2016 at 11:16:30PM +, Guenter Milde wrote:

> On 2016-10-21, Enrico Forestieri wrote:
> > On Fri, Oct 21, 2016 at 07:05:29PM +, Guenter Milde wrote:
> >> On 2016-10-21, Enrico Forestieri wrote:
> 
> >> > I think that the old "None (no fontenc)" was more than adequate.
> >> > This tells that *LyX* is not going to select any encoding.
> 
> >> However, it was inconsistent. The same font dialog uses [Default] when
> >> LyX is not going to select any font. Also the internal name is
> >> "default".
> 
> > It is because the default encoding has been T1 since ever. I also think
> > that it is unfortunate that selecting everything to be default, instead
> > one finds that lyx is not producing a pristine latex file such as
> > \documentclass{article}
> > \begin{document}
> > \end{document}
> > but this is historical. Each program has his quirks, and this one has
> > been there since the beginning. 
> 
> Until 2008, "default" meant unequivocally "pristine latex". 
> LyX provided only a LyX-wide setting
> Tools>Preferences>Output>LaTeX>Use_LaTeX_font_encoding. Allowed values
> were a comma-separted list of font encodings or the special value
> "default" for "don't load fontenc".
> 
> Confusion started, when per-document fontenc setting was added in
> [df329341a/lyxgit] to fix bug #5730. As the LyX-wide setting was kept, we
> ended up with two defaults: the LyX-wide setting and the LaTeX (or
> documentclass) default.
> 
> Unfortunatly, the GUI name "Default" was chosen for the LyX-wide default.
> Since then, selecting "Default" in the font encoding GUI inserts
> additional code and usually leads to a font encoding differing from the
> document class default.
>   
> > This is something that one gets accustomed to. Expert users know how to
> > deal with it, 
> 
> Even experts and developers get this wrong:
> 
> E.g. Ticket #7334 "bitmapped fonts are still default" was closed as "wontfix"
> with the comment
> 
>we have the policy to not alter the class defaults (by default).
> 
> However, the problem is actually caused by the font encoding deviating from
> the class default. Sticking to the policy would have solved it (but
> created others).
> 
> > while novices don't mind and only want something that
> > works and looks good.
> 
> Documents with LyX's default settings still use bitmap fonts and don't
> look good (unless you installed CM-Super).
> 
> ...
> 
> > Given what said above, having "LyX Default" instead of simply
> > "Default" may be Ok (to differentiate from a consistency point of
> > view), but another default (Class default) without any classification
> > can be confusing. 
> 
> > So, it would be better to add "(no fontenc)", but then I still think
> > that "None (no fontenc)" is better and doesn't need to be deciphered
> > because it has always been like that. 
> 
> I prefer keeping "Default" in both GUI names, because the first ensures
> compatiblity with the current naming and the second with the "Default"s
> in the lines below. In a complex situation, confused is better than
> misled.
> 
> > Hence, old users know what it means, 
> 
> My experience is that many old users got it wrong all the time...
> 
> > while new users will learn its meaning. For them, having "Class
> > default" is not any clear and more confusing, IMHO.
> 
> This was Jürgens choice, my preference is "LaTeX Default" with a tooltip: 
> 
>   Use the documentclass' default encoding, don't load the fontspec package
> 
> Jürgen pointed out, that "no fontenc" may be misleading, as fontenc
> could be loaded by a package or the document class. I could live with 
> "LaTeX Default (no fontenc)" as a pragmatic way to tell users where to
> click to avoid fontenc loading by LyX.

Thanks for this detailed explanation. It makes clearer to me your
rationale. Now I agree with you and make an even more radical proposal.
Let's leave [Default] as the default, but now [Default] means
"LaTeX default", i.e., no fontenc. In other words we rename
"None (no fontenc)" to "Default" and make it the default (sorry for the
pun). Moreover, we add a new entry "LyX Default", which corresponds
to what is now the default (i.e, load fontenc with the value specified
in Tools->Preferences->Output->LaTeX). Of course, this means that a
lyx2lyx conversion has to be added, so that documents produced with
previous versions have their [Default] changed to [LyX Default].
In this way, new documents get no fontenc loading by default and
old documents continue working as usual. Who likes to always load
fontenc, can open Document->Settings, select [LyX Default] and
"Save as Document Defaults" their choice.

This is the cleanest way to proceed, IMHO.

-- 
Enrico

Re: [LyX/master] Fix Ticket #9741 misleading name for font-encoding setting "default".

[Guenter Milde]

On 2016-10-21, Enrico Forestieri wrote:
> On Fri, Oct 21, 2016 at 07:05:29PM +, Guenter Milde wrote:
>> On 2016-10-21, Enrico Forestieri wrote:

>> > I think that the old "None (no fontenc)" was more than adequate.
>> > This tells that *LyX* is not going to select any encoding.

>> However, it was inconsistent. The same font dialog uses [Default] when
>> LyX is not going to select any font. Also the internal name is
>> "default".

> It is because the default encoding has been T1 since ever. I also think
> that it is unfortunate that selecting everything to be default, instead
> one finds that lyx is not producing a pristine latex file such as
> \documentclass{article}
> \begin{document}
> \end{document}
> but this is historical. Each program has his quirks, and this one has
> been there since the beginning. 

Until 2008, "default" meant unequivocally "pristine latex". 
LyX provided only a LyX-wide setting
Tools>Preferences>Output>LaTeX>Use_LaTeX_font_encoding. Allowed values
were a comma-separted list of font encodings or the special value
"default" for "don't load fontenc".

Confusion started, when per-document fontenc setting was added in
[df329341a/lyxgit] to fix bug #5730. As the LyX-wide setting was kept, we
ended up with two defaults: the LyX-wide setting and the LaTeX (or
documentclass) default.

Unfortunatly, the GUI name "Default" was chosen for the LyX-wide default.
Since then, selecting "Default" in the font encoding GUI inserts
additional code and usually leads to a font encoding differing from the
document class default.
  
> This is something that one gets accustomed to. Expert users know how to
> deal with it, 

Even experts and developers get this wrong:

E.g. Ticket #7334 "bitmapped fonts are still default" was closed as "wontfix"
with the comment

   we have the policy to not alter the class defaults (by default).

However, the problem is actually caused by the font encoding deviating from
the class default. Sticking to the policy would have solved it (but
created others).

> while novices don't mind and only want something that
> works and looks good.

Documents with LyX's default settings still use bitmap fonts and don't
look good (unless you installed CM-Super).

...

> Given what said above, having "LyX Default" instead of simply
> "Default" may be Ok (to differentiate from a consistency point of
> view), but another default (Class default) without any classification
> can be confusing. 

> So, it would be better to add "(no fontenc)", but then I still think
> that "None (no fontenc)" is better and doesn't need to be deciphered
> because it has always been like that. 

I prefer keeping "Default" in both GUI names, because the first ensures
compatiblity with the current naming and the second with the "Default"s
in the lines below. In a complex situation, confused is better than
misled.

> Hence, old users know what it means, 

My experience is that many old users got it wrong all the time...

> while new users will learn its meaning. For them, having "Class
> default" is not any clear and more confusing, IMHO.

This was Jürgens choice, my preference is "LaTeX Default" with a tooltip: 

  Use the documentclass' default encoding, don't load the fontspec package

Jürgen pointed out, that "no fontenc" may be misleading, as fontenc
could be loaded by a package or the document class. I could live with 
"LaTeX Default (no fontenc)" as a pragmatic way to tell users where to
click to avoid fontenc loading by LyX.

Thanks,
Günter

Re: [LyX/master] Fix Ticket #9741 misleading name for font-encoding setting "default".

[Enrico Forestieri]

On Fri, Oct 21, 2016 at 07:05:29PM +, Guenter Milde wrote:
> On 2016-10-21, Enrico Forestieri wrote:
> 
> > I think that the old "None (no fontenc)" was more than adequate.
> > This tells that *LyX* is not going to select any encoding.
> 
> However, it was inconsistent. The same fibt dialog uses [Default] when LyX is
> not going to select any font. Also the internal name is "default".

It is because the default encoding has been T1 since ever. I also think
that it is unfortunate that selecting everything to be default, instead
one finds that lyx is not producing a pristine latex file such as
\documentclass{article}
\begin{document}
\end{document}
but this is historical. Each program has his quirks, and this one has
been there since the beginning. This is something that one gets
accustomed to. Expert users know how to deal with it, while novices
don't mind and only want something that works and looks good.
So, given that the "Default" has been stolen, having a "None (no fontenc)"
is helpful to experts to understand what is going on, while novices grasp
that something is not being selected. Probably, they don't even understand
what "TeX default" means, given that there is also another default
entry. I think they would be even more confused than now.

> > For that goal, I would have suggested to simply change "Default"
> > to "LyX Default". I don't have any idea of what is meant for
> > "Global Default".
> 
> Global Default is just a merge of the internal name and the previous GUI
> name for consistency with the previous name and with the other names
> of this dialogue. "LyX Default" would be OK, too.
> Also, there is a suggestion to remove the global setting alltogether (see
> Jean-Marcs comment).

Note that menus should be comprehensible to users rather than developers.
I was not even thinking that global refers to an internal classification
which is not visible.

> > Such controversial changes should not be performed without discussion.
> 
> I did not expect controversy after 14 months without any response to the bug
> report.

I think that you should not expect to have a discussion in the bug tracker
about topics such as this one. I don't even think it can be classified as
a bug. The fact that in 14 months nobody cared to comment may simply
mean that nobody feels that is an essential thing that should be corrected.

> So my updated proposal is
> 
> value  new GUI name
> == =
> global LyX Default   # eventually remove this value and lyxrc.fontenc
> ¹ Custom
> defaultClass Default # or LaTeX Default
> 
> with a short explanation in the tooltip and full description in
> the Guide.

Given what said above, having "LyX Default" instead of simply
"Default" may be Ok (to differentiate from a consistency point of
view), but another default (Class default) without any classification
can be confusing. So, it would be better to add "(no fontenc)", buth
then I still think that "None (no fontenc)" is better and doesn't need
to be deciphered because it has always been like that. Hence, old users
know what it means, while new users will learn its meaning. For them,
having "Class default" is not any clear and more confusing, IMHO.

-- 
Enrico

Re: [LyX/master] Fix Ticket #9741 misleading name for font-encoding setting "default".

[Guenter Milde]

On 2016-10-21, Enrico Forestieri wrote:
> On Fri, Oct 21, 2016 at 12:05:00PM +0200, Jürgen Spitzmüller wrote:
>> 2016-10-21 11:43 GMT+02:00 Guenter Milde :


>> I'd prefer something such as "Class Defaults"

> I think that the old "None (no fontenc)" was more than adequate.
> This tells that *LyX* is not going to select any encoding.

However, it was inconsistent. The same fibt dialog uses [Default] when LyX is
not going to select any font. Also the internal name is "default".



We have the variable "fontenc" (in the *.lyx file called "\fontencoding")
with:

value  old GUI name  Action
== = 
global Default   depends on lyxrc.fontenc
 (default is equal to custom with  T1)
¹ Custominsert \usepackage[]{fontenc}
 in document-preamble
defaultNone (no fontenc) insert macro definitions missing in OT1
 in document preamble to get working quotes

¹ is a comma separated list of TeX font encodings (cf `texdoc
 encguide.pdf`)

...

> For that goal, I would have suggested to simply change "Default"
> to "LyX Default". I don't have any idea of what is meant for
> "Global Default".

Global Default is just a merge of the internal name and the previous GUI
name for consistency with the previous name and with the other names
of this dialogue. "LyX Default" would be OK, too.
Also, there is a suggestion to remove the global setting alltogether (see
Jean-Marcs comment).

> Such controversial changes should not be performed without discussion.

I did not expect controversy after 14 months without any response to the bug
report.


So my updated proposal is

value  new GUI name
== =
global LyX Default   # eventually remove this value and lyxrc.fontenc
¹ Custom
defaultClass Default # or LaTeX Default

with a short explanation in the tooltip and full description in
the Guide.

Günter

Re: [LyX/master] Fix Ticket #9741 misleading name for font-encoding setting "default".

[Enrico Forestieri]

On Fri, Oct 21, 2016 at 12:05:00PM +0200, Jürgen Spitzmüller wrote:
> 2016-10-21 11:43 GMT+02:00 Guenter Milde :
> 
> > Would it help to remove just the "OT1" leaving "TeX default, no fontenc"?
> > * texperts know the TeX default is OT1
> > * texpert know the default can be changed and fontenc (as any package) can
> >   be loaded by a package or class
> > * tex-ignorants will not be helped with "OT1".
> >
> 
> I'd prefer something such as "Class Defaults"

I think that the old "None (no fontenc)" was more than adequate.
This tells that *LyX* is not going to select any encoding.

> > My incentive was to clear the confusion with
> > != 
> > in a GUI dialog where otherwise "Default" stands for .
> >
> 
> 
> I understand your rationale, and agree.

For that goal, I would have suggested to simply change "Default"
to "LyX Default". I don't have any idea of what is meant for
"Global Default". Such controversial changes should not be performed
without discussion.

-- 
Enrico

Re: [LyX/master] Fix Ticket #9741 misleading name for font-encoding setting "default".

[Jürgen Spitzmüller]

2016-10-21 11:43 GMT+02:00 Guenter Milde :

> Would it help to remove just the "OT1" leaving "TeX default, no fontenc"?
> * texperts know the TeX default is OT1
> * texpert know the default can be changed and fontenc (as any package) can
>   be loaded by a package or class
> * tex-ignorants will not be helped with "OT1".
>

I'd prefer something such as "Class Defaults"

(note that we are using title casing in this context)


>
> My incentive was to clear the confusion with
> != 
> in a GUI dialog where otherwise "Default" stands for .
>


I understand your rationale, and agree.

Jürgen


>
> Maybe there is a better suggestion...
>
> Thanks,
> Günter
>
>

Re: [LyX/master] Fix Ticket #9741 misleading name for font-encoding setting "default".

[Guenter Milde]

Dear Jürgen, dear LyX developers,

On 2016-10-21, Jürgen Spitzmüller wrote:

> [-- Type: text/plain, Encoding: quoted-printable --]

> Am Freitag, den 21.10.2016, 09:12 +0200 schrieb Günter Milde:
>> +   fontModule->fontencCO->addItem(qt_("TeX default (OT1, no
>> fontenc)"), QString("default"));

> That's not necessarily true. It just means "don't load fontenc
> explicitly". The class (or a package) might load fontenc with something
> else than OT1.

> So the old string was more adequate.

We are in a predicament here:

a) fontenc=="default" ensures that LyX does not load fontenc.sty, even if
   LGR or T2A font encodings are required for Greek or Cyrillic letters.
   
b) you are right, the user preamble, a class or module may change the font
   encoding (with or without loading fontenc).

The situation is equivalent to "Default" font settings - LyX does not load a
font package or modify \rmdefault etc. Unfortunately, the old strings used
"Default" for "global Default" (which defaults to T1 and not the LaTeX
default).

Would it help to remove just the "OT1" leaving "TeX default, no fontenc"?
* texperts know the TeX default is OT1
* texpert know the default can be changed and fontenc (as any package) can
  be loaded by a package or class
* tex-ignorants will not be helped with "OT1".

My incentive was to clear the confusion with 
!=  
in a GUI dialog where otherwise "Default" stands for .

Maybe there is a better suggestion...

Thanks,
Günter

Re: [LyX/master] Fix Ticket #9741 misleading name for font-encoding setting "default".

[Jürgen Spitzmüller]

Am Freitag, den 21.10.2016, 09:12 +0200 schrieb Günter Milde:
> +   fontModule->fontencCO->addItem(qt_("TeX default (OT1, no
> fontenc)"), QString("default"));

That's not necessarily true. It just means "don't load fontenc
explicitly". The class (or a package) might load fontenc with something
else than OT1.

So the old string was more adequate.

Jürgen

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