Re: about LyXWinInstaller

2018-07-16 Thread Richard Kimberly Heck
On 07/16/2018 07:56 PM, Uwe Stöhr wrote:
> Am 09.07.2018 um 23:41 schrieb Richard Kimberly Heck:
>
> At first apologies. My shoulder still doesn't allow me to spend much
> time on the PC.
>
>> Actually, no, that's certainly not my focus, and I don't think it's the
>> focus of the rest of the team, either. The only substantial change I
>> made to the official installer, besides fixing various bugs (such as
>> incorrect URLs for downloading dictionaries),
>
> What was incorrect? I just checked and the download links still work
> with the installer I released.

They failed in my testing and that of others. It seems as if it may be
mirror-dependent. (I removed all the mirror code, too, since sourceforge
itself feeds requests to the appropriate mirrors.)

>> was the one just mentioned.
>
> Well, that was why I almost left LyX. You think you know better what
> makes sense for average Windows users.

No, I don't. Would you please read what I wrote? My initial intention
was to build your installer, including the update code, except for
including a little warning dialog. I understand that you did not like
the idea of the warning dialog. The rest of us did not like the idea of
the update code. But, in deference to your judgement, I planned to
include it. In my testing, however, as I said, the update code failed
half the time. It broke perfectly good and *totally up to date* MiKTeX
installations in some cases. My judgement was that *that* is very bad,
so I decided to remove that code. Not because I know better than you,
but because the code didn't work.

> I am tired and won't discuss further. 

There's not really anything left to discuss. You decided to stop
producing the official installer, so now someone else does it.

Riki



Re: about LyXWinInstaller

2018-07-16 Thread Uwe Stöhr

Am 09.07.2018 um 23:41 schrieb Richard Kimberly Heck:

At first apologies. My shoulder still doesn't allow me to spend much 
time on the PC.



Actually, no, that's certainly not my focus, and I don't think it's the
focus of the rest of the team, either. The only substantial change I
made to the official installer, besides fixing various bugs (such as
incorrect URLs for downloading dictionaries),


What was incorrect? I just checked and the download links still work 
with the installer I released.



was the one just
mentioned.


Well, that was why I almost left LyX. You think you know better what 
makes sense for average Windows users. I am tired and won't discuss further.


regards Uwe


Re: about LyXWinInstaller

2018-07-09 Thread Richard Kimberly Heck
On 07/09/2018 05:14 PM, Uwe Stöhr wrote:
> Am 09.07.2018 um 20:16 schrieb Richard Kimberly Heck:
>
>> Due to a bug in MiKTeX, installation of LyX 2.3.0 can sometimes
>> cause the MiKTeX installation to be corrupted. We highly recommend
>> that MiKTeX users update to the latest version *before* installing LyX
>> 2.3.0. (If you run into problems, the solution will be to uninstall
>> MiKTeX
>> and then re-install.)
>
> Dear LyX colleagues,
>
> at first apologies for being off so long I had an accident hindering
> me to use keyboards.
>
> I missed of course the recent LyX development. Nevertheless I
> explained several times until May why such an announcement breaks the
> fundamental understanding I have for the LyXWinInstaller. As I already
> wrote, my goal is that everybody is able to get a fully functional LyX
> by using the installer. My 70+ year old mother was the first person
> reporting me a problem and as consequence I found a big bug in MiKTeX.
> That was fixed long ago and with the installer for LyX 2.3.0 my mother
> got her LyX repaired. So perfect for me but not for you. Now you tell
> people to update MiKTeX. How should they do this? Does my mother know
> what MiKTeX is? Of course not.
> I visited her recently and told her about. We tried tried to update
> MiKTeX on her old PC (where there is still the old MiKTeX from 2017).
> At first she failed but also for me running the MiKTeX update service
> did not lead to the current MiKTeX (seems to be another bug of the old
> MiKTeX setup). So your announcement is not helpful for average users.

My original intention was to include your update code in the official
installer along with the brief warning that was discussed previously.
Unfortunately, as you just mentioned, the update code does not always
work. It failed for me over half the time in my testing. I'd get some
mysterious error warning me that MiKTeX would no longer work and telling
me to look at the log files and that "hopefully" I'd be able to get
MiKTeX working again. That happened even when I already had an
up-to-date MiKTeX, in fact. That's not very helpful for average users,
either.

So, in the end, I decided not to include the update code in the official
installer. Not because of some philosophical disagreement, but because
there are, indeed, other bugs in MiKTeX, and it seemed to me best for us
to do nothing here. But that's a judgement call, and I understand that
others may see things differently.

> I took always care for average users because experienced users know
> how to fix problems in there own by googling, writing mails to the
> lists etc. Average users are just users without all the background
> knowledge one needs to update e.g. MiKTeX.
> I understood that your focus is to please experienced users. 

Actually, no, that's certainly not my focus, and I don't think it's the
focus of the rest of the team, either. The only substantial change I
made to the official installer, besides fixing various bugs (such as
incorrect URLs for downloading dictionaries), was the one just
mentioned. Otherwise, it does the same things it always did. I doubt
we'll be making substantial changes going forward, either, though there
are discussions to be had about that now that the release is finally done.

Riki




about LyXWinInstaller

2018-07-09 Thread Uwe Stöhr

Am 09.07.2018 um 20:16 schrieb Richard Kimberly Heck:


Due to a bug in MiKTeX, installation of LyX 2.3.0 can sometimes
cause the MiKTeX installation to be corrupted. We highly recommend
that MiKTeX users update to the latest version *before* installing LyX
2.3.0. (If you run into problems, the solution will be to uninstall MiKTeX
and then re-install.)


Dear LyX colleagues,

at first apologies for being off so long I had an accident hindering me 
to use keyboards.


I missed of course the recent LyX development. Nevertheless I explained 
several times until May why such an announcement breaks the fundamental 
understanding I have for the LyXWinInstaller. As I already wrote, my 
goal is that everybody is able to get a fully functional LyX by using 
the installer. My 70+ year old mother was the first person reporting me 
a problem and as consequence I found a big bug in MiKTeX. That was fixed 
long ago and with the installer for LyX 2.3.0 my mother got her LyX 
repaired. So perfect for me but not for you. Now you tell people to 
update MiKTeX. How should they do this? Does my mother know what MiKTeX 
is? Of course not.
I visited her recently and told her about. We tried tried to update 
MiKTeX on her old PC (where there is still the old MiKTeX from 2017). At 
first she failed but also for me running the MiKTeX update service did 
not lead to the current MiKTeX (seems to be another bug of the old 
MiKTeX setup). So your announcement is not helpful for average users.


I took always care for average users because experienced users know how 
to fix problems in there own by googling, writing mails to the lists 
etc. Average users are just users without all the background knowledge 
one needs to update e.g. MiKTeX.
I understood that your focus is to please experienced users. Since I 
cannot live with such a decision that would my own mother left alone 
with problems she doesn't understand and cannot solve, I decided to 
release LyXWinInstaller as my own project.

I hope that this way LyX can also be used by average users under Windows.

regards Uwe