Re: "Lyx must be updated"

[Stephan Witt via lyx-users]

Am 17.12.2021 um 06:57 schrieb Daniel :
> 
> On 2021-12-16 22:16, Stephan Witt wrote:
>> Am 16.12.2021 um 09:56 schrieb Murat Yildizoglu via lyx-users 
>> :
>>> 
>>> I have tried to send this to lyx-devel but I am not a member.
>>> 
 Begin forwarded message:
 
 From: lyx-devel-ow...@lists.lyx.org
 Subject: "Lyx must be updated"
 Date: 16 December 2021 at 15:55:19 GMT+7
 To: myi...@gmail.com
 
 Due to the massive amount of spam that this list receives, non-members
 are not permitted to post to this list. Please subscribe if you would
 like to post. (If you are trying to file a bug report, you can instead
 do that at https://www.lyx.org/trac/newticket.
 
 
 From: Murat Yildizoglu 
 Subject: "Lyx must be updated"
 Date: 16 December 2021 at 15:55:13 GMT+7
 To: LyX Developers 
 
 
 This is what OSX 12.1 tells me now with Lyx  LyX-2.3.6.2.
 
 ""LyX" needs to be updated
 This app will not work with future versions of
 macOS and needs to be updated to improve
 compatibility. Contact the developer for more
 information.”
 
 I imagine that the next version will be good with future versions of OSX.
 
 I have just wanted to inform.
 
 Best regards,
 Murat
>> Hi Murat,
>> that’s probably because of the LyX-2.3.6.2 package is pure Intel code and 
>> the friendly OS wants to warn you about the fact the Apple company is on the 
>> way to drop the support for the Intel CPUs.
> 
> Searching on the wen for the warning, I've only found evidence for the 
> warning being triggered by the python version. What makes you think that this 
> is not the case?

Hi Daniel,

I didn’t say it’s not the case. I said it’s probably because of the CPU 
architecture. Maybe I’m wrong.

I remember to see the very same warning with macOS High Sierra 10.13.4 for 
programs using 32bit Intel CPU code.

Best regards,
Stephan
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Re: "Lyx must be updated"

[Murat Yildizoglu via lyx-users]

This is good news Stephan! Lyx is already pretty quick under Rosetta, but it 
should be quicker in native habits probably.
I have not checked TexLive, if it is M1 or Intel now. Maybe I should check it 
also. 
The nice speed and battery boost we get under M1 is so good, I have not really 
had the need to optimize anything yet :-)

> On 17 December 2021, at 04:16, Stephan Witt  wrote:
> 
> Am 16.12.2021 um 09:56 schrieb Murat Yildizoglu via lyx-users 
> :
>> 
>> I have tried to send this to lyx-devel but I am not a member.
>> 
>>> Begin forwarded message:
>>> 
>>> From: lyx-devel-ow...@lists.lyx.org
>>> Subject: "Lyx must be updated"
>>> Date: 16 December 2021 at 15:55:19 GMT+7
>>> To: myi...@gmail.com
>>> 
>>> Due to the massive amount of spam that this list receives, non-members
>>> are not permitted to post to this list. Please subscribe if you would
>>> like to post. (If you are trying to file a bug report, you can instead
>>> do that at https://www.lyx.org/trac/newticket.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> From: Murat Yildizoglu 
>>> Subject: "Lyx must be updated"
>>> Date: 16 December 2021 at 15:55:13 GMT+7
>>> To: LyX Developers 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> This is what OSX 12.1 tells me now with Lyx  LyX-2.3.6.2.
>>> 
>>> ""LyX" needs to be updated
>>> This app will not work with future versions of
>>> macOS and needs to be updated to improve
>>> compatibility. Contact the developer for more
>>> information.”
>>> 
>>> I imagine that the next version will be good with future versions of OSX.
>>> 
>>> I have just wanted to inform.
>>> 
>>> Best regards,
>>> Murat
> 
> Hi Murat,
> 
> that’s probably because of the LyX-2.3.6.2 package is pure Intel code and the 
> friendly OS wants to warn you about the fact the Apple company is on the way 
> to drop the support for the Intel CPUs.
> 
> The upcoming LyX-2.4 and the next LyX-2.3 release will be build for both CPU 
> architectures - the Intel and the Apple M1 chips.
> 
> Best regards,
> Stephan

—

Prof. Murat Yildizoglu

Advisor to the Minister of Education, Youth and Sports of Cambodia
Expertise France






On temporary leave from 
University of Bordeaux


#80 Preah Norodom Boulevard
Phnom Penh
Royaume du Cambodge
Telegram: +855 95 732 088
http://yildizoglu.fr


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Re: "Lyx must be updated"

[Stephan Witt via lyx-users]

Am 16.12.2021 um 09:56 schrieb Murat Yildizoglu via lyx-users 
:
> 
> I have tried to send this to lyx-devel but I am not a member.
> 
>> Begin forwarded message:
>> 
>> From: lyx-devel-ow...@lists.lyx.org
>> Subject: "Lyx must be updated"
>> Date: 16 December 2021 at 15:55:19 GMT+7
>> To: myi...@gmail.com
>> 
>> Due to the massive amount of spam that this list receives, non-members
>> are not permitted to post to this list. Please subscribe if you would
>> like to post. (If you are trying to file a bug report, you can instead
>> do that at https://www.lyx.org/trac/newticket.
>> 
>> 
>> From: Murat Yildizoglu 
>> Subject: "Lyx must be updated"
>> Date: 16 December 2021 at 15:55:13 GMT+7
>> To: LyX Developers 
>> 
>> 
>> This is what OSX 12.1 tells me now with Lyx  LyX-2.3.6.2.
>> 
>> ""LyX" needs to be updated
>> This app will not work with future versions of
>> macOS and needs to be updated to improve
>> compatibility. Contact the developer for more
>> information.”
>> 
>> I imagine that the next version will be good with future versions of OSX.
>> 
>> I have just wanted to inform.
>> 
>> Best regards,
>> Murat

Hi Murat,

that’s probably because of the LyX-2.3.6.2 package is pure Intel code and the 
friendly OS wants to warn you about the fact the Apple company is on the way to 
drop the support for the Intel CPUs.

The upcoming LyX-2.4 and the next LyX-2.3 release will be build for both CPU 
architectures - the Intel and the Apple M1 chips.

Best regards,
Stephan
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Re: LuaTeX vs XeTeX

[Virgil Arrington via lyx-users]

On 12/16/2021 3:17 PM, Herbert Voss via lyx-users wrote:

Do _not_ load any font and choose an empty preanble,
 then Computer Modern is used for pdflatex and Latin Modern
for lualatex/xelatex. And then you will see _no_ difference in
the created pdf.


I did as you said, and you are right; with all default settings and nothing 
added to the preamble, the results were identical.

But, of course that didn't satisfy me. In my first test, the greatest variance 
was between XeTeX and LuaTeX and they both used identical fonts (Windows 
Palatino Linotype) and identical preamble settings. If there was no difference 
in the engines, they should have produced identical results, but they didn't. 
So, I dug a little further.

Starting with the completely clean files, I added the Microtype package to both 
and compiled them. As with my first test, I got different results. XeTeX once 
again produced many more hyphenated lines -- essentially the same as it 
produced without Microtype -- than did LuaTeX. Neither produced any significant 
overfull lines at the right margin.

So, it seems as if Microtype behaves differently with XeTeX and LuaTeX -- at 
least on my system.

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Re: LuaTeX vs XeTeX

[Herbert Voss via lyx-users]

Am 16.12.21 um 21:02 schrieb Virgil Arrington via lyx-users:


On 12/16/2021 9:31 AM, Herbert Voss via lyx-users wrote:


LuaTeX ,and XeTeX too, are more or less frozen code, just like TeX.
Only bugs will be fixed. There are no good reasons _not_ to use
LuaTeX instead
of pdfTeX:

I just performed an interesting experiment comparing the results from 
compiling the same source file with XeTeX, PDFLaTeX and LuaTeX. I was 
surprised by the results I got. In the past, I had found that, when I 
used XeTeX, I got more "overfull hboxes" with lines flowing past the 
right margin than I did with PDFLaTeX. I also would get *many* more 
hyphenated words with XeTeX than with PDFLaTeX. I assumed I would get 
similar results with LuaTeX, but I was pleasantly surprised.


For my experiment, took a 45 page paper I wrote for a former employer. 
For the PDFLaTeX compiled version, I used the mathpazo Palatino font 
that came with MikTeX and compiled it with PDFLaTeX. For the XeTeX and 
LuaTeX versions, I used Windows' Palatino Linotype font. All other 
settings were the same, including the use of the Microtype package in 
all versions.




Other font, new kernings, new hyphenations.
mathpazo (Type 1) and Palatino (TrueType) are not the same font!

In a single random paragraph, the resulting file compiled with XeTeX 
gave me eight hyphenated line endings. The same paragraph in the 
document compiled with LuaTeX gave me three hyphenated line endings, 
and the same paragraph in the document compiled with PDFLaTeX only 
gave me one hyphenated line ending.


XeTeX also gave me many overfull lines, in fact so many as to make the 
resulting document all but unusable. PDFLaTeX gave me a few, but I 
could work with them. I was surprised to see that LuaTeX appeared to 
give me the fewest overfull lines. I saw very few lines that extended 
beyond the right margin, and those I did happen to find extended such 
a small amount as to be all but unnoticeable.


I was very surprised by how different the results were when using 
XeTeX vs. LuaTeX. I had just assumed that the two engines would 
produce very similar results, but that was not the case at all. In 
fact, having seen LuaTeX's document, I can't imagine why anyone would 
choose XeTeX over LuaTeX. I was also surprised to see how well 
LuaTeX's results compared with PDFLaTeX's document. While LuaTex still 
gave me more hyphenated line endings, it gave me fewer noticeable 
overfull lines at the right margin.




Do _not_ load any font and choose an empty preanble,
 then Computer Modern is used for pdflatex and Latin Modern
for lualatex/xelatex. And then you will see _no_ difference in
the created pdf.


Herbert
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Re: LuaTeX vs XeTeX

[Virgil Arrington via lyx-users]

On 12/16/2021 9:31 AM, Herbert Voss via lyx-users wrote:

LuaTeX ,and XeTeX too, are more or less frozen code, just like TeX.
Only bugs will be fixed. There are no good reasons _not_ to use LuaTeX instead
of pdfTeX:


I just performed an interesting experiment comparing the results from compiling 
the same source file with XeTeX, PDFLaTeX and LuaTeX. I was surprised by the 
results I got. In the past, I had found that, when I used XeTeX, I got more 
"overfull hboxes" with lines flowing past the right margin than I did with 
PDFLaTeX. I also would get *many* more hyphenated words with XeTeX than with 
PDFLaTeX. I assumed I would get similar results with LuaTeX, but I was 
pleasantly surprised.

For my experiment, took a 45 page paper I wrote for a former employer. For the 
PDFLaTeX compiled version, I used the mathpazo Palatino font that came with 
MikTeX and compiled it with PDFLaTeX. For the XeTeX and LuaTeX versions, I used 
Windows' Palatino Linotype font. All other settings were the same, including 
the use of the Microtype package in all versions.

In a single random paragraph, the resulting file compiled with XeTeX gave me 
eight hyphenated line endings. The same paragraph in the document compiled with 
LuaTeX gave me three hyphenated line endings, and the same paragraph in the 
document compiled with PDFLaTeX only gave me one hyphenated line ending.

XeTeX also gave me many overfull lines, in fact so many as to make the 
resulting document all but unusable. PDFLaTeX gave me a few, but I could work 
with them. I was surprised to see that LuaTeX appeared to give me the fewest 
overfull lines. I saw very few lines that extended beyond the right margin, and 
those I did happen to find extended such a small amount as to be all but 
unnoticeable.

I was very surprised by how different the results were when using XeTeX vs. 
LuaTeX. I had just assumed that the two engines would produce very similar 
results, but that was not the case at all. In fact, having seen LuaTeX's 
document, I can't imagine why anyone would choose XeTeX over LuaTeX. I was also 
surprised to see how well LuaTeX's results compared with PDFLaTeX's document. 
While LuaTex still gave me more hyphenated line endings, it gave me fewer 
noticeable overfull lines at the right margin.

Okay, now back to my "real" work.

Virgil







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Re: User list server settings

[Jean-Marc Lasgouttes via lyx-users]

Le 16/12/2021 à 18:23, Paul A. Rubin via lyx-users a écrit :
Thanks JMarc. That sheds some light. It is quite curious that the change 
affects different recipients in different ways, even when we use the 
same mail client (though perhaps not with the same email provider).


In any case, while I would prefer to have the proper sender display 
back, if that can't be done I can accept the "new normal" as the price 
of avoiding your being spammed. :-)


I do review a few dozen blocked messages per day, just to see whether 
there is something legitimate in there. Usually there is not.


JMarc
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Re: User list server settings

[Paul A. Rubin via lyx-users]

On 12/16/21 12:00 PM, Jean-Marc Lasgouttes via lyx-users wrote:

Le 16/12/2021 à 05:13, Paul A. Rubin via lyx-users a écrit :

Hi all,

Did a gremlin mess with server settings for this list? For the last 
few days, every message I've gotten has had  "mailing list" 
(lyx-users@lists.lyx.org) in both From and To fields, which means my 
mail client no longer shows who the sender was. (The sender's name 
and address are in the "Reply to" field.) In contrast, the developer 
list continues to behave itself, with the sender's name in the From 
field and "LyX Developers" in the To field.


I am not sure if I would qualify this as a gremlin, but one of the 
people from OSUOSL.org (which gracefully hosts these lists and our 
server) did tweak this mailing list.


Why did such a thing happen?

Well, every time our friend Valdemaras (aka sov...@yahoo.com) posted a 
message on the list, I got a bounce from every subscriber to this list 
who use a yahoo-based ISP (that's 40 people who did not get the 
message). This with an error message about spam and DMARC that I am 
not sure to understand. As I do not understand why Valdemaras is our 
only user who freaks out yahoo.


So we can try to tweak again and better the list, but no promises. And 
if there is a specialist of mailman reading this, hints will be welcome.


JMarc
Thanks JMarc. That sheds some light. It is quite curious that the change 
affects different recipients in different ways, even when we use the 
same mail client (though perhaps not with the same email provider).


In any case, while I would prefer to have the proper sender display 
back, if that can't be done I can accept the "new normal" as the price 
of avoiding your being spammed. :-)


Paul


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Re: User list server settings

[Jean-Marc Lasgouttes via lyx-users]

Le 16/12/2021 à 05:13, Paul A. Rubin via lyx-users a écrit :

Hi all,

Did a gremlin mess with server settings for this list? For the last few 
days, every message I've gotten has had  "mailing list" 
(lyx-users@lists.lyx.org) in both From and To fields, which means my 
mail client no longer shows who the sender was. (The sender's name and 
address are in the "Reply to" field.) In contrast, the developer list 
continues to behave itself, with the sender's name in the From field and 
"LyX Developers" in the To field.


I am not sure if I would qualify this as a gremlin, but one of the 
people from OSUOSL.org (which gracefully hosts these lists and our 
server) did tweak this mailing list.


Why did such a thing happen?

Well, every time our friend Valdemaras (aka sov...@yahoo.com) posted a 
message on the list, I got a bounce from every subscriber to this list 
who use a yahoo-based ISP (that's 40 people who did not get the 
message). This with an error message about spam and DMARC that I am not 
sure to understand. As I do not understand why Valdemaras is our only 
user who freaks out yahoo.


So we can try to tweak again and better the list, but no promises. And 
if there is a specialist of mailman reading this, hints will be welcome.


JMarc
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Re: Fwd: "Lyx must be updated"

[Dr Eberhard Lisse via lyx-users]

Murat,

2.40 is on the verge of going from Alpha to Beta, and patience is a
virtue :-)-O

el


On 2021-12-16 10:56 , Murat Yildizoglu via lyx-users wrote:

I have tried to send this to lyx-devel but I am not a member.


Begin forwarded message:

[...]

This is what OSX 12.1 tells me now with Lyx  LyX-2.3.6.2.

""LyX" needs to be updated This app will not work with future
versions of macOS and needs to be updated to improve compatibility.
Contact the developer for more information.”

I imagine that the next version will be good with future versions of
OSX.

I have just wanted to inform.

Best regards,
Murat

[...]

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Re: User list server settings

[Paul A. Rubin via lyx-users]

On 12/16/21 8:17 AM, Daniel via lyx-users wrote:

On 16/12/2021 05:13, Paul A. Rubin via lyx-users wrote:

Hi all,

Did a gremlin mess with server settings for this list? For the last 
few days, every message I've gotten has had  "mailing list" 
(lyx-users@lists.lyx.org) in both From and To fields, which means my 
mail client no longer shows who the sender was. (The sender's name 
and address are in the "Reply to" field.) In contrast, the developer 
list continues to behave itself, with the sender's name in the From 
field and "LyX Developers" in the To field.


It's not a big deal, but as one of the older members of the list I 
feel I should point out that we elderly types do confuse easily.


Paul



I see a similar problem. But my client (Thunderbird) gives the name 
with a "via lyx-users". So, I can see who send the email but in an 
annoying way. lyx-devel seems to be unaffected.


Daniel

That's curious. I too use Thunderbird (78.14.0) but I just see "mailing 
lyx" in the "From" column.


Paul

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Re: User list server settings

[Paul A. Rubin via lyx-users]

On 12/15/21 11:13 PM, Paul A. Rubin wrote:

Hi all,

Did a gremlin mess with server settings for this list? For the last 
few days, every message I've gotten has had  "mailing list" 
(lyx-users@lists.lyx.org) in both From and To fields, which means my 
mail client no longer shows who the sender was. (The sender's name and 
address are in the "Reply to" field.) In contrast, the developer list 
continues to behave itself, with the sender's name in the From field 
and "LyX Developers" in the To field.


It's not a big deal, but as one of the older members of the list I 
feel I should point out that we elderly types do confuse easily.


Paul

Oops, there's a typo there. What I see in the "From" field is "mailing 
lyx", not "mailing list".


Paul
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Re: LuaTeX vs XeTeX

[Herbert Voss via lyx-users]

Am 16.12.21 um 14:45 schrieb Pavel Sanda via lyx-users:

On Mon, Nov 08, 2021 at 09:49:29AM +0100, Herbert Voss wrote:

Am 08.11.21 um 09:46 schrieb Saša Janiška:

On Mon, 8 Nov 2021 08:58:37 +0100
Herbert Voss  wrote:



LuaHBTeX   (HB for HarfBuzz) is the default engine for lualatex


Thank you since I was not aware of it despite it is being installed on
my Debian machine.

Otherwise, I was aware of LuaTeX since I was considering to use ConTeXt
instead of LyX/LaTeX...

I wrote everything with lualatex and use xelatex in only rare cases
and never use pdf(la)tex

Could anyone of the better informed review https://wiki.lyx.org/LyX/LuaTeX ?
Some of the claims (like LuaTeX is still in beta status) are unlikely to be 
truth
and they can shape LyX users base in a wrong direction...


That is wrong: LuaTeX ,and XeTeX too, are more or less frozen code, just 
like TeX.
Only bugs will be fixed. There are no good reasons _not_ to use LuaTeX 
instead

of pdfTeX:

- no more fiddling around with the encoding, everything is UTF-8
- no more restrictions in using fonts, all current types are supported,
   like pfb, ttf, utf, ttc, ...
- easy integration of the script language Lua into a document

Herbert
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RE: User list server settings

[Dr Paul Verschueren via lyx-users]

The Outlook client view has not changed. It does provide slightly more 
information (see attached screen shot).

I have not come across this form of address line on emails from any other 
source (it contains 3 email addresses!), so there is something unusual about it.



[cid:image001.png@01D7F286.F06688F0]



The “Reply” command believes the return address is:

“Daniel xraco...@gmx.de”

whereas “LyX Users lyx-users@lists.lyx.org” 
would be more useful here!


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Re: LuaTeX vs XeTeX

[Pavel Sanda via lyx-users]

On Mon, Nov 08, 2021 at 09:49:29AM +0100, Herbert Voss wrote:
> Am 08.11.21 um 09:46 schrieb Saša Janiška:
> >On Mon, 8 Nov 2021 08:58:37 +0100
> >Herbert Voss  wrote:
> >
> >
> >>LuaHBTeX   (HB for HarfBuzz) is the default engine for lualatex
> >>
> >Thank you since I was not aware of it despite it is being installed on
> >my Debian machine.
> >
> >Otherwise, I was aware of LuaTeX since I was considering to use ConTeXt
> >instead of LyX/LaTeX...
> 
> I wrote everything with lualatex and use xelatex in only rare cases
> and never use pdf(la)tex

Could anyone of the better informed review https://wiki.lyx.org/LyX/LuaTeX ?
Some of the claims (like LuaTeX is still in beta status) are unlikely to be 
truth
and they can shape LyX users base in a wrong direction...

Pavel
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Re: User list server settings

[Daniel via lyx-users]

On 16/12/2021 05:13, Paul A. Rubin via lyx-users wrote:

Hi all,

Did a gremlin mess with server settings for this list? For the last few 
days, every message I've gotten has had  "mailing list" 
(lyx-users@lists.lyx.org) in both From and To fields, which means my 
mail client no longer shows who the sender was. (The sender's name and 
address are in the "Reply to" field.) In contrast, the developer list 
continues to behave itself, with the sender's name in the From field and 
"LyX Developers" in the To field.


It's not a big deal, but as one of the older members of the list I feel 
I should point out that we elderly types do confuse easily.


Paul



I see a similar problem. But my client (Thunderbird) gives the name with 
a "via lyx-users". So, I can see who send the email but in an annoying 
way. lyx-devel seems to be unaffected.


Daniel

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Re: Fwd: "Lyx must be updated"

[Daniel via lyx-users]

On 16/12/2021 09:56, Murat Yildizoglu via lyx-users wrote:

I have tried to send this to lyx-devel but I am not a member.


Begin forwarded message:

*From: *lyx-devel-ow...@lists.lyx.org 


*Subject: **"Lyx must be updated"*
*Date: *16 December 2021 at 15:55:19 GMT+7
*To: *myi...@gmail.com 

Due to the massive amount of spam that this list receives, non-members
are not permitted to post to this list. Please subscribe if you would
like to post. (If you are trying to file a bug report, you can instead
do that at https://www.lyx.org/trac/newticket 
.



*From: *Murat Yildizoglu mailto:myi...@gmail.com>>
*Subject: **"Lyx must be updated"*
*Date: *16 December 2021 at 15:55:13 GMT+7
*To: *LyX Developers >



This is what OSX 12.1 tells me now with Lyx  LyX-2.3.6.2.

""LyX" needs to be updated
This app will not work with future versions of
macOS and needs to be updated to improve
compatibility. Contact the developer for more
information.”

I imagine that the next version will be good with future versions of OSX.

I have just wanted to inform.

Best regards,
Murat


This might be a python version warning:

"Python
Deprecations

If an app uses Python 2.7, macOS now triggers an alert indicating that 
the developer must update the app to ensure it will work in future 
versions of macOS. (80221011)" 
(https://developer.apple.com/documentation/macos-release-notes/macos-12_0_1-release-notes)


Best regards,
Daniel

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Fwd: "Lyx must be updated"

[Murat Yildizoglu via lyx-users]

I have tried to send this to lyx-devel but I am not a member.

> Begin forwarded message:
> 
> From: lyx-devel-ow...@lists.lyx.org
> Subject: "Lyx must be updated"
> Date: 16 December 2021 at 15:55:19 GMT+7
> To: myi...@gmail.com
> 
> Due to the massive amount of spam that this list receives, non-members
> are not permitted to post to this list. Please subscribe if you would
> like to post. (If you are trying to file a bug report, you can instead
> do that at https://www.lyx.org/trac/newticket.
> 
> 
> From: Murat Yildizoglu 
> Subject: "Lyx must be updated"
> Date: 16 December 2021 at 15:55:13 GMT+7
> To: LyX Developers 
> 
> 
> This is what OSX 12.1 tells me now with Lyx  LyX-2.3.6.2.
> 
> ""LyX" needs to be updated
> This app will not work with future versions of
> macOS and needs to be updated to improve
> compatibility. Contact the developer for more
> information.”
> 
> I imagine that the next version will be good with future versions of OSX.
> 
> I have just wanted to inform.
> 
> Best regards,
> Murat
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

—

Prof. Murat Yildizoglu

Advisor to the Minister of Education, Youth and Sports of Cambodia
Expertise France






On temporary leave from 
University of Bordeaux


#80 Preah Norodom Boulevard
Phnom Penh
Royaume du Cambodge
Telegram: +855 95 732 088
http://yildizoglu.fr


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Re: User list server settings

[Norman Dunbar via lyx-users]

Morning Gents,

I see both your names in the From field with "Your name via lyx-users 
 and just lyx in the To field. A reply all brings up a 
reply to both you, and Lyx.


I'm an oldie too, as in age, not time spent here! ;-)


Cheers,
Norm.


--
Norman Dunbar
Dunbar IT Consultants Ltd

Registered address:
27a Lidget Hill
Pudsey
West Yorkshire
United Kingdom
LS28 7LG

Company Number: 05132767
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