Re: Polytonic Greek input?

[Guenter Milde]

On 2012-04-25, stefano franchi wrote:
 On Mon, Apr 23, 2012 at 3:49 PM, Guenter Milde mi...@users.sf.net wrote:
 On 2012-04-23, stefano franchi wrote:

 BTW: I am using memoir with Luatex, language is utf8(Xetex), babel
 loaded with Greek polutoniko (among others).

 I have no experience with LuaTeX and I don't know whether it works with
 the babel greek option at all (and which fonts are used in this case).

 Maybe your document loads fontspec after babel and this way overwrites the
 selection of LGR-encoded fonts for Greek.

 Hmm, unless memoir does something funny, fontspec should be loaded
 first. It's the second line in the Latex source (right after the doc
 class)

To be precise, the line(s) to look for not loading fontspec but the last
font definition(s) (\setmainfont etc.) which can happen also in the
custom LaTeX preamble.

 Do you use some hack to overwrite the font-encoding switch usually done
 with \textgreek?

 No.

This indicates that (in most cases) using the (8-bit) LaTeX fonts in LGR
encoding for Greek.

To be sure when which font is used, you could experiment with a different
(e.g. sans-serif) main text font via the use-non-tex-fonts GUI. Then
try with Greek Unicode characters inside and outside a region marked as
Greek (polytonic).

Also, try to find out whether you use babel or polyglossia (the latter is
recommended with Xe/LuaTeX and Greek.


 a) use the pre-composed Unicode characters in the Greek extended block
   (drag and drop from somewhere or use InsertSymbols).

 Using insertsymbols works, but it is a pain to use. Copy and pasting
 from external sources does not. I see the proper greek on screen, but
 the characters simply disappear in the pdf.

All characters or just some?

 Characters disappearing in the PDF are usually an indication of an
 incomplete font. On screen, the system (or the QT libs or fontconfig, or
 X...) use auto-substitution of missing characters in the configured font
 with characters from another known system font, xetex and luatex do not have
 this nice feature.

 Make sure the document text font contains the pre-composed characters in the
 Greek-extended Unicode block.

 I thought about that. I may be using an incomplete font. It's Minion
 Pro. I'll double check with another font with more complete coverage.

If simple Greek characters are present but accented ones not, this is a good
indicator for an incomplete font. If no Greek is visible at all, this hints
at a different problem.

 But:  the Greek text entered as ERT displays fine. Does that mean that
 latex (babel?) switches to an alternative font when it sees the
 \textgreek command?

Yes. The \textgreek command switches the font encoding to LGR, (La)TeX then
selects a font in LGR encoding.

 b) use the LGR transliteration which is described in the babel Greek
   documentation http://mirror.ctan.org/info/babel/babel.pdf

...

 The conversion of , , and | to \textless, \textgreater, and \textbar is
 only required with the legacy OT1 font encoding (i.e. never in Greek and
 not with LyX's default setting of T1). Write a bug report?


 Ok, I'll file a bug report. But what is the bug, exactly? Something like:

 Lyx should not escape symbols when using T1 font encoding?

LyX should escape , , and | only when using OT1 font encoding.

 If, instead, I enter  \textgreek{epim'eleia eato\~u} in ERT, I get
 the expected output

 This means you should be fine with ERT for these characters (or
 phrases/words containing these characters) and the tilde.
 (The \textgreek is inserted by LyX when you set the language.)

 Lyx actually inserts a \foreignlanguage{polutonikogreek}{...}. Is that
 equivalent?

This depends on the language package: babel switches the font encoding to
LGR, polyglossia not (because there is no need for a different font encoding
with Unicode-encoded fonts.
Just try: if the transliteration still works, it's babel; if the Latin
input come out as Latin, it's polyglossia.


 With XeTeX or LuaTeX, I recommend

 * Use polyglossia instead of babel.

 * Use a text font that contains the precomposed Greek characters
  (you can also set up a different font for Greek and Latin in the LaTeX
  preamble, see the fontspec manual).

 * Use Unicode characters for the input. (The LGR transliteration does not
  work without legacy 8-bit LGR encoded fonts.)

If you need this often, set up keybindings (e.g. a system-wide toggle
between Greek and Latin keyboard layout).


Günter

Re: Polytonic Greek input?

[Guenter Milde]

On 2012-04-25, stefano franchi wrote:
 On Mon, Apr 23, 2012 at 3:49 PM, Guenter Milde mi...@users.sf.net wrote:
 On 2012-04-23, stefano franchi wrote:

 BTW: I am using memoir with Luatex, language is utf8(Xetex), babel
 loaded with Greek polutoniko (among others).

 I have no experience with LuaTeX and I don't know whether it works with
 the babel greek option at all (and which fonts are used in this case).

 Maybe your document loads fontspec after babel and this way overwrites the
 selection of LGR-encoded fonts for Greek.

 Hmm, unless memoir does something funny, fontspec should be loaded
 first. It's the second line in the Latex source (right after the doc
 class)

To be precise, the line(s) to look for not loading fontspec but the last
font definition(s) (\setmainfont etc.) which can happen also in the
custom LaTeX preamble.

 Do you use some hack to overwrite the font-encoding switch usually done
 with \textgreek?

 No.

This indicates that (in most cases) using the (8-bit) LaTeX fonts in LGR
encoding for Greek.

To be sure when which font is used, you could experiment with a different
(e.g. sans-serif) main text font via the use-non-tex-fonts GUI. Then
try with Greek Unicode characters inside and outside a region marked as
Greek (polytonic).

Also, try to find out whether you use babel or polyglossia (the latter is
recommended with Xe/LuaTeX and Greek.


 a) use the pre-composed Unicode characters in the Greek extended block
   (drag and drop from somewhere or use InsertSymbols).

 Using insertsymbols works, but it is a pain to use. Copy and pasting
 from external sources does not. I see the proper greek on screen, but
 the characters simply disappear in the pdf.

All characters or just some?

 Characters disappearing in the PDF are usually an indication of an
 incomplete font. On screen, the system (or the QT libs or fontconfig, or
 X...) use auto-substitution of missing characters in the configured font
 with characters from another known system font, xetex and luatex do not have
 this nice feature.

 Make sure the document text font contains the pre-composed characters in the
 Greek-extended Unicode block.

 I thought about that. I may be using an incomplete font. It's Minion
 Pro. I'll double check with another font with more complete coverage.

If simple Greek characters are present but accented ones not, this is a good
indicator for an incomplete font. If no Greek is visible at all, this hints
at a different problem.

 But:  the Greek text entered as ERT displays fine. Does that mean that
 latex (babel?) switches to an alternative font when it sees the
 \textgreek command?

Yes. The \textgreek command switches the font encoding to LGR, (La)TeX then
selects a font in LGR encoding.

 b) use the LGR transliteration which is described in the babel Greek
   documentation http://mirror.ctan.org/info/babel/babel.pdf

...

 The conversion of , , and | to \textless, \textgreater, and \textbar is
 only required with the legacy OT1 font encoding (i.e. never in Greek and
 not with LyX's default setting of T1). Write a bug report?


 Ok, I'll file a bug report. But what is the bug, exactly? Something like:

 Lyx should not escape symbols when using T1 font encoding?

LyX should escape , , and | only when using OT1 font encoding.

 If, instead, I enter  \textgreek{epim'eleia eato\~u} in ERT, I get
 the expected output

 This means you should be fine with ERT for these characters (or
 phrases/words containing these characters) and the tilde.
 (The \textgreek is inserted by LyX when you set the language.)

 Lyx actually inserts a \foreignlanguage{polutonikogreek}{...}. Is that
 equivalent?

This depends on the language package: babel switches the font encoding to
LGR, polyglossia not (because there is no need for a different font encoding
with Unicode-encoded fonts.
Just try: if the transliteration still works, it's babel; if the Latin
input come out as Latin, it's polyglossia.


 With XeTeX or LuaTeX, I recommend

 * Use polyglossia instead of babel.

 * Use a text font that contains the precomposed Greek characters
  (you can also set up a different font for Greek and Latin in the LaTeX
  preamble, see the fontspec manual).

 * Use Unicode characters for the input. (The LGR transliteration does not
  work without legacy 8-bit LGR encoded fonts.)

If you need this often, set up keybindings (e.g. a system-wide toggle
between Greek and Latin keyboard layout).


Günter

Re: Polytonic Greek input?

[Guenter Milde]

On 2012-04-25, stefano franchi wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 23, 2012 at 3:49 PM, Guenter Milde  wrote:
>> On 2012-04-23, stefano franchi wrote:

>>> BTW: I am using memoir with Luatex, language is utf8(Xetex), babel
>>> loaded with Greek polutoniko (among others).

>> I have no experience with LuaTeX and I don't know whether it works with
>> the babel greek option at all (and which fonts are used in this case).

>> Maybe your document loads fontspec after babel and this way overwrites the
>> selection of LGR-encoded fonts for Greek.

> Hmm, unless memoir does something funny, fontspec should be loaded
> first. It's the second line in the Latex source (right after the doc
> class)

To be precise, the line(s) to look for not loading fontspec but the last
font definition(s) (\setmainfont etc.) which can happen also in the
custom LaTeX preamble.

>> Do you use some hack to overwrite the font-encoding switch usually done
>> with \textgreek?

> No.

This indicates that (in most cases) using the (8-bit) LaTeX fonts in LGR
encoding for Greek.

To be sure when which font is used, you could experiment with a different
(e.g. sans-serif) main text font via the "use-non-tex-fonts" GUI. Then
try with Greek Unicode characters inside and outside a region marked as
Greek (polytonic).

Also, try to find out whether you use babel or polyglossia (the latter is
recommended with Xe/LuaTeX and Greek.


 a) use the pre-composed Unicode characters in the "Greek extended" block
   (drag and drop from somewhere or use Insert>Symbols).

>>> Using insert>symbols works, but it is a pain to use. Copy and pasting
>>> from external sources does not. I see the proper greek on screen, but
>>> the characters simply disappear in the pdf.

All characters or just some?

>> Characters "disappearing" in the PDF are usually an indication of an
>> incomplete font. On screen, the system (or the QT libs or fontconfig, or
>> X...) use auto-substitution of missing characters in the configured font
>> with characters from another known system font, xetex and luatex do not have
>> this nice feature.

>> Make sure the document text font contains the pre-composed characters in the
>> Greek-extended Unicode block.

> I thought about that. I may be using an incomplete font. It's Minion
> Pro. I'll double check with another font with more complete coverage.

If simple Greek characters are present but accented ones not, this is a good
indicator for an incomplete font. If no Greek is visible at all, this hints
at a different problem.

> But:  the Greek text entered as ERT displays fine. Does that mean that
> latex (babel?) switches to an alternative font when it sees the
> \textgreek command?

Yes. The \textgreek command switches the font encoding to LGR, (La)TeX then
selects a font in LGR encoding.

 b) use the "LGR transliteration" which is described in the babel Greek
   documentation http://mirror.ctan.org/info/babel/babel.pdf

...

>> The conversion of <, >, and | to \textless, \textgreater, and \textbar is
>> only required with the legacy OT1 font encoding (i.e. never in Greek and
>> not with LyX's default setting of T1). Write a bug report?


> Ok, I'll file a bug report. But what is the bug, exactly? Something like:

> "Lyx should not escape symbols when using T1 font encoding"?

"LyX should escape <, >, and | only when using OT1 font encoding."

>>> If, instead, I enter  \textgreek{eato\~u} in ERT, I get
>>> the expected output

>> This means you should be fine with ERT for these characters (or
>> phrases/words containing these characters) and the tilde.
>> (The \textgreek is inserted by LyX when you set the language.)

> Lyx actually inserts a \foreignlanguage{polutonikogreek}{...}. Is that
> equivalent?

This depends on the language package: babel switches the font encoding to
LGR, polyglossia not (because there is no need for a different font encoding
with Unicode-encoded fonts.
Just try: if the transliteration still works, it's babel; if the Latin
input come out as Latin, it's polyglossia.


>> With XeTeX or LuaTeX, I recommend

>> * Use polyglossia instead of babel.

>> * Use a text font that contains the precomposed Greek characters
>>  (you can also set up a different font for Greek and Latin in the LaTeX
>>  preamble, see the fontspec manual).

>> * Use Unicode characters for the input. (The LGR transliteration does not
>>  work without legacy 8-bit LGR encoded fonts.)

If you need this often, set up keybindings (e.g. a system-wide toggle
between Greek and Latin keyboard layout).


Günter

Re: Polytonic Greek input?

[stefano franchi]

On Mon, Apr 23, 2012 at 3:49 PM, Guenter Milde mi...@users.sf.net wrote:
 On 2012-04-23, stefano franchi wrote:

 BTW: I am using memoir with Luatex, language is utf8(Xetex), babel
 loaded with Greek polutoniko (among others).

 This is important info. Many more things may go wrong in this case.

 I have no experience with LuaTeX and I don't know whether it works with
 the babel greek option at all (and which fonts are used in this case).

 Maybe your document loads fontspec after babel and this way overwrites the
 selection of LGR-encoded fonts for Greek.

Hmm, unless memoir does something funny, fontspec should be loaded
first. It's the second line in the Latex source (right after the doc
class)


 Do you use some hack to overwrite the font-encoding switch usually done
 with \textgreek?


No.


 On Mon, Apr 23, 2012 at 2:48 AM, Guenter Milde mi...@users.sf.net wrote:
 On 2012-04-23, René Grognard wrote:

 For all methods, you must mark the text in question as Greek.
 Done. In my case, Greek (polutoniko)

 With LuaTeX, babel (instead of polyglossia) and Unicode (utf8 XeTeX), it
 *may* be better not to set the language to Grekk (YMMV).


 a) use the pre-composed Unicode characters in the Greek extended block
   (drag and drop from somewhere or use InsertSymbols).

 Using insertsymbols works, but it is a pain to use. Copy and pasting
 from external sources does not. I see the proper greek on screen, but
 the characters simply disappear in the pdf.

 Very strange. Does this happen to the same characters with the same language
 setting?

 Characters disappearing in the PDF are usually an indication of an
 incomplete font. On screen, the system (or the QT libs or fontconfig, or
 X...) use auto-substitution of missing characters in the configured font
 with characters from another known system font, xetex and luatex do not have
 this nice feature.

 Make sure the document text font contains the pre-composed characters in the
 Greek-extended Unicode block.


I thought about that. I may be using an incomplete font. It's Minion
Pro. I'll double check with another font with more complete coverage.
But:  the Greek text entered as ERT displays fine. Does that mean that
latex (babel?) switches to an alternative font when it sees the
\textgreek command?

 b) use the LGR transliteration which is described in the babel Greek
   documentation http://mirror.ctan.org/info/babel/babel.pdf

 Sorry, I did not consider LyX' paranoia escaping of text input because
 there is no problem using | in the unicodesymbols file (only ~, because
 this is no-break space in normal LaTeX, disabled by Babel for Greek but
 re-enabled by LyX).

 The conversion of , , and | to \textless, \textgreater, and \textbar is
 only required with the legacy OT1 font encoding (i.e. never in Greek and
 not with LyX's default setting of T1). Write a bug report?


Ok, I'll file a bug report. But what is the bug, exactly? Something like:

Lyx should not escape symbols when using T1 font encoding?


 If, instead, I enter  \textgreek{epim'eleia eato\~u} in ERT, I get
 the expected output

 This means you should be fine with ERT for these characters (or
 phrases/words containing these characters) and the tilde.
 (The \textgreek is inserted by LyX when you set the language.)

Lyx actually inserts a \foreignlanguage{polutonikogreek}{...}. Is that
equivalent?



   Alternatively, you can look in the file unicodesymbols in the LyXdir to
   see how LyX maps the Unicode characters to LaTeX code.

 c) if you load the LGRX extended font definitions for the Greek LGR fonts
   (http://milde.users.sourceforge.net/LGR/) in the latex preamble, you
   can also use standard accent commands (and their extensions) as
   described in http://milde.users.sourceforge.net/LGR/lgrxenc.pdf For
   single accents, this should also work with accent-... LyXfuns + base
   character in the minibuffer or bound to some key.


 I will have to try this once I get method (b) to work.

 With XeTeX or LuaTeX, I recommend

 * Use polyglossia instead of babel.

 * Use a text font that contains the precomposed Greek characters
  (you can also set up a different font for Greek and Latin in the LaTeX
  preamble, see the fontspec manual).

 * Use Unicode characters for the input. (The LGR transliteration does not
  work without legacy 8-bit LGR encoded fonts.)


I'll have to try these ones too.



Thanks,

Stefano


-- 
__
Stefano Franchi
Associate Research Professor
Department of Hispanic Studies            Ph:   +1 (979) 845-2125
Texas AM University                          Fax:  +1 (979) 845-6421
College Station, Texas, USA

stef...@tamu.edu
http://stefano.cleinias.org

Re: Polytonic Greek input?

[stefano franchi]

On Mon, Apr 23, 2012 at 3:49 PM, Guenter Milde mi...@users.sf.net wrote:
 On 2012-04-23, stefano franchi wrote:

 BTW: I am using memoir with Luatex, language is utf8(Xetex), babel
 loaded with Greek polutoniko (among others).

 This is important info. Many more things may go wrong in this case.

 I have no experience with LuaTeX and I don't know whether it works with
 the babel greek option at all (and which fonts are used in this case).

 Maybe your document loads fontspec after babel and this way overwrites the
 selection of LGR-encoded fonts for Greek.

Hmm, unless memoir does something funny, fontspec should be loaded
first. It's the second line in the Latex source (right after the doc
class)


 Do you use some hack to overwrite the font-encoding switch usually done
 with \textgreek?


No.


 On Mon, Apr 23, 2012 at 2:48 AM, Guenter Milde mi...@users.sf.net wrote:
 On 2012-04-23, René Grognard wrote:

 For all methods, you must mark the text in question as Greek.
 Done. In my case, Greek (polutoniko)

 With LuaTeX, babel (instead of polyglossia) and Unicode (utf8 XeTeX), it
 *may* be better not to set the language to Grekk (YMMV).


 a) use the pre-composed Unicode characters in the Greek extended block
   (drag and drop from somewhere or use InsertSymbols).

 Using insertsymbols works, but it is a pain to use. Copy and pasting
 from external sources does not. I see the proper greek on screen, but
 the characters simply disappear in the pdf.

 Very strange. Does this happen to the same characters with the same language
 setting?

 Characters disappearing in the PDF are usually an indication of an
 incomplete font. On screen, the system (or the QT libs or fontconfig, or
 X...) use auto-substitution of missing characters in the configured font
 with characters from another known system font, xetex and luatex do not have
 this nice feature.

 Make sure the document text font contains the pre-composed characters in the
 Greek-extended Unicode block.


I thought about that. I may be using an incomplete font. It's Minion
Pro. I'll double check with another font with more complete coverage.
But:  the Greek text entered as ERT displays fine. Does that mean that
latex (babel?) switches to an alternative font when it sees the
\textgreek command?

 b) use the LGR transliteration which is described in the babel Greek
   documentation http://mirror.ctan.org/info/babel/babel.pdf

 Sorry, I did not consider LyX' paranoia escaping of text input because
 there is no problem using | in the unicodesymbols file (only ~, because
 this is no-break space in normal LaTeX, disabled by Babel for Greek but
 re-enabled by LyX).

 The conversion of , , and | to \textless, \textgreater, and \textbar is
 only required with the legacy OT1 font encoding (i.e. never in Greek and
 not with LyX's default setting of T1). Write a bug report?


Ok, I'll file a bug report. But what is the bug, exactly? Something like:

Lyx should not escape symbols when using T1 font encoding?


 If, instead, I enter  \textgreek{epim'eleia eato\~u} in ERT, I get
 the expected output

 This means you should be fine with ERT for these characters (or
 phrases/words containing these characters) and the tilde.
 (The \textgreek is inserted by LyX when you set the language.)

Lyx actually inserts a \foreignlanguage{polutonikogreek}{...}. Is that
equivalent?



   Alternatively, you can look in the file unicodesymbols in the LyXdir to
   see how LyX maps the Unicode characters to LaTeX code.

 c) if you load the LGRX extended font definitions for the Greek LGR fonts
   (http://milde.users.sourceforge.net/LGR/) in the latex preamble, you
   can also use standard accent commands (and their extensions) as
   described in http://milde.users.sourceforge.net/LGR/lgrxenc.pdf For
   single accents, this should also work with accent-... LyXfuns + base
   character in the minibuffer or bound to some key.


 I will have to try this once I get method (b) to work.

 With XeTeX or LuaTeX, I recommend

 * Use polyglossia instead of babel.

 * Use a text font that contains the precomposed Greek characters
  (you can also set up a different font for Greek and Latin in the LaTeX
  preamble, see the fontspec manual).

 * Use Unicode characters for the input. (The LGR transliteration does not
  work without legacy 8-bit LGR encoded fonts.)


I'll have to try these ones too.



Thanks,

Stefano


-- 
__
Stefano Franchi
Associate Research Professor
Department of Hispanic Studies            Ph:   +1 (979) 845-2125
Texas AM University                          Fax:  +1 (979) 845-6421
College Station, Texas, USA

stef...@tamu.edu
http://stefano.cleinias.org

Re: Polytonic Greek input?

[stefano franchi]

On Mon, Apr 23, 2012 at 3:49 PM, Guenter Milde  wrote:
> On 2012-04-23, stefano franchi wrote:
>
>> BTW: I am using memoir with Luatex, language is utf8(Xetex), babel
>> loaded with Greek polutoniko (among others).
>
> This is important info. Many more things may go wrong in this case.
>
> I have no experience with LuaTeX and I don't know whether it works with
> the babel greek option at all (and which fonts are used in this case).
>
> Maybe your document loads fontspec after babel and this way overwrites the
> selection of LGR-encoded fonts for Greek.

Hmm, unless memoir does something funny, fontspec should be loaded
first. It's the second line in the Latex source (right after the doc
class)

>
> Do you use some hack to overwrite the font-encoding switch usually done
> with \textgreek?
>

No.

>
>> On Mon, Apr 23, 2012 at 2:48 AM, Guenter Milde  wrote:
>>> On 2012-04-23, René Grognard wrote:
>
>>> For all methods, you must mark the text in question as "Greek".
>> Done. In my case, Greek (polutoniko)
>
> With LuaTeX, babel (instead of polyglossia) and Unicode (utf8 XeTeX), it
> *may* be better not to set the language to Grekk (YMMV).
>

>>> a) use the pre-composed Unicode characters in the "Greek extended" block
>>>   (drag and drop from somewhere or use Insert>Symbols).
>
>> Using insert>symbols works, but it is a pain to use. Copy and pasting
>> from external sources does not. I see the proper greek on screen, but
>> the characters simply disappear in the pdf.
>
> Very strange. Does this happen to the same characters with the same language
> setting?
>
> Characters "disappearing" in the PDF are usually an indication of an
> incomplete font. On screen, the system (or the QT libs or fontconfig, or
> X...) use auto-substitution of missing characters in the configured font
> with characters from another known system font, xetex and luatex do not have
> this nice feature.
>
> Make sure the document text font contains the pre-composed characters in the
> Greek-extended Unicode block.
>

I thought about that. I may be using an incomplete font. It's Minion
Pro. I'll double check with another font with more complete coverage.
But:  the Greek text entered as ERT displays fine. Does that mean that
latex (babel?) switches to an alternative font when it sees the
\textgreek command?

>>> b) use the "LGR transliteration" which is described in the babel Greek
>>>   documentation http://mirror.ctan.org/info/babel/babel.pdf
>
> Sorry, I did not consider LyX' "paranoia escaping" of text input because
> there is no problem using <>| in the unicodesymbols file (only ~, because
> this is no-break space in "normal" LaTeX, disabled by Babel for Greek but
> re-enabled by LyX).
>
> The conversion of <, >, and | to \textless, \textgreater, and \textbar is
> only required with the legacy OT1 font encoding (i.e. never in Greek and
> not with LyX's default setting of T1). Write a bug report?
>

Ok, I'll file a bug report. But what is the bug, exactly? Something like:

"Lyx should not escape symbols when using T1 font encoding"?


>> If, instead, I enter  \textgreek{eato\~u} in ERT, I get
>> the expected output
>
> This means you should be fine with ERT for these characters (or
> phrases/words containing these characters) and the tilde.
> (The \textgreek is inserted by LyX when you set the language.)

Lyx actually inserts a \foreignlanguage{polutonikogreek}{...}. Is that
equivalent?

>
>
>>>   Alternatively, you can look in the file "unicodesymbols" in the LyXdir to
>>>   see how LyX maps the Unicode characters to LaTeX code.
>
>>> c) if you load the "LGRX" extended font definitions for the Greek LGR fonts
>>>   (http://milde.users.sourceforge.net/LGR/) in the latex preamble, you
>>>   can also use standard accent commands (and their extensions) as
>>>   described in http://milde.users.sourceforge.net/LGR/lgrxenc.pdf For
>>>   single accents, this should also work with accent-... LyXfuns + base
>>>   character in the minibuffer or bound to some key.
>
>
>> I will have to try this once I get method (b) to work.
>
> With XeTeX or LuaTeX, I recommend
>
> * Use polyglossia instead of babel.
>
> * Use a text font that contains the precomposed Greek characters
>  (you can also set up a different font for Greek and Latin in the LaTeX
>  preamble, see the fontspec manual).
>
> * Use Unicode characters for the input. (The LGR transliteration does not
>  work without legacy 8-bit LGR encoded fonts.)
>

I'll have to try these ones too.



Thanks,

Stefano


-- 
__
Stefano Franchi
Associate Research Professor
Department of Hispanic Studies            Ph:   +1 (979) 845-2125
Texas A University                          Fax:  +1 (979) 845-6421
College Station, Texas, USA

stef...@tamu.edu
http://stefano.cleinias.org

Re: Polytonic Greek input?

[Guenter Milde]

On 2012-04-23, René Grognard wrote:

 Can anyone remind me of how to input Greek (polytonic) accents?

There are (at least) 3 ways:

For all methods, you must mark the text in question as Greek.

a) use the pre-composed Unicode characters in the Greek extended block
   (drag and drop from somewhere or use InsertSymbols).

b) use the LGR transliteration which is described in the babel Greek
   documentation http://mirror.ctan.org/info/babel/babel.pdf
   
   There is no need to use ERT (except, maybe for the tilde character).
  
   If you start with method a), you can also use the ViewSource feature to
   see the translation to the LGR transliteration (unless the document
   output encoding is set to Unicode (utf8)).
   
   Alternatively, you can look in the file unicodesymbols in the LyXdir to
   see how LyX maps the Unicode characters to LaTeX code.
   
c) if you load the LGRX extended font definitions for the Greek LGR fonts
   (http://milde.users.sourceforge.net/LGR/) in the latex preamble, you
   can also use standard accent commands (and their extensions) as
   described in http://milde.users.sourceforge.net/LGR/lgrxenc.pdf For
   single accents, this should also work with accent-... LyXfuns + base
   character in the minibuffer or bound to some key.


For quotes that you can drag and drop from somewhere, I recommend a). For
larger input by hand without a Greek-Unicode keybord mapping b) might
be more convenient. All methods can also be combined (with some
experimentation).

 A Lyx newbee myself I am a long way to have it replacing TeXworks but
 under the latter and pdfLaTeX I use the command \usepackage{psibycus} %

LyX uses Greek fonts in the LGR font encoding instead of the ibycus
encoding, therefore the input conventions differ.


Günter

Re: Polytonic Greek input?

[stefano franchi]

On Sun, Apr 22, 2012 at 6:05 PM, stefano franchi
stefano.fran...@gmail.com wrote:
 Can anyone remind me of how to input Greek (polytonic) accents?

 I looked on the wiki, but I could not quite figure out how to enter
 the breathing accents. Searching the list did not help either. I used
 to know it, but I can't remember how I learned it...


I forgot to mention that the wiki page on Greek has a section called

Open problems and discussion
Accents

The section consists of three dead links


S.


-- 
__
Stefano Franchi
Associate Research Professor
Department of Hispanic Studies            Ph:   +1 (979) 845-2125
Texas AM University                          Fax:  +1 (979) 845-6421
College Station, Texas, USA

stef...@tamu.edu
http://stefano.cleinias.org

Re: Polytonic Greek input?

[stefano franchi]

Hi Gunter, thanks for the help. However, I am still having troubles.

BTW: I am using memoir with Luatex, language is utf8(Xetex), babel
loaded with Greek polutoniko (among others).

On Mon, Apr 23, 2012 at 2:48 AM, Guenter Milde mi...@users.sf.net wrote:
 On 2012-04-23, René Grognard wrote:

 For all methods, you must mark the text in question as Greek.
Done. In my case, Greek (polutoniko)


 a) use the pre-composed Unicode characters in the Greek extended block
   (drag and drop from somewhere or use InsertSymbols).

Using insertsymbols works, but it is a pain to use. Copy and pasting
from external sources does not. I see the proper greek on screen, but
the characters simply disappear in the pdf.


 b) use the LGR transliteration which is described in the babel Greek
   documentation http://mirror.ctan.org/info/babel/babel.pdf

   There is no need to use ERT (except, maybe for the tilde character).


By LGR transliteration I think you mean the following rules in the
Babel document:

But in order for this to work, some characters need to be considered
as letters. These characters are , , ~, ‘,
’,  and |.

This is exactly what I was trying to do, but I cannot get it to work. Example:

If I enter

epim'eleia eato\~u

and set the language to Greek Poutoniko, this is what I get in the pdf:

 επιμέλεια εατο\ῦ

which is unsurprising, since the latex code in Viewsource is:

\foreignlanguage{polutonikogreek}{\textless{}epim'eleia
\textgreater{}eato\textbackslash{}\textasciitilde{}u}

(You mentioned probelms with the tilde, but not even the breathing
accents are correct. and the Latex looks completely wrong)

If, instead, I enter  \textgreek{epim'eleia eato\~u} in ERT, I get
the expected output


   If you start with method a), you can also use the ViewSource feature to
   see the translation to the LGR transliteration (unless the document
   output encoding is set to Unicode (utf8)).


I am using utf8, so I guess this does not apply.

   Alternatively, you can look in the file unicodesymbols in the LyXdir to
   see how LyX maps the Unicode characters to LaTeX code.

 c) if you load the LGRX extended font definitions for the Greek LGR fonts
   (http://milde.users.sourceforge.net/LGR/) in the latex preamble, you
   can also use standard accent commands (and their extensions) as
   described in http://milde.users.sourceforge.net/LGR/lgrxenc.pdf For
   single accents, this should also work with accent-... LyXfuns + base
   character in the minibuffer or bound to some key.


I will have to try this once I get method (b) to work.



Thanks,

S.




-- 
__
Stefano Franchi
Associate Research Professor
Department of Hispanic Studies            Ph:   +1 (979) 845-2125
Texas AM University                          Fax:  +1 (979) 845-6421
College Station, Texas, USA

stef...@tamu.edu
http://stefano.cleinias.org

Re: Polytonic Greek input?

[Guenter Milde]

On 2012-04-23, stefano franchi wrote:

 BTW: I am using memoir with Luatex, language is utf8(Xetex), babel
 loaded with Greek polutoniko (among others).

This is important info. Many more things may go wrong in this case.

I have no experience with LuaTeX and I don't know whether it works with
the babel greek option at all (and which fonts are used in this case).

Maybe your document loads fontspec after babel and this way overwrites the
selection of LGR-encoded fonts for Greek. 

Do you use some hack to overwrite the font-encoding switch usually done
with \textgreek?


 On Mon, Apr 23, 2012 at 2:48 AM, Guenter Milde mi...@users.sf.net wrote:
 On 2012-04-23, René Grognard wrote:

 For all methods, you must mark the text in question as Greek.
 Done. In my case, Greek (polutoniko)

With LuaTeX, babel (instead of polyglossia) and Unicode (utf8 XeTeX), it
*may* be better not to set the language to Grekk (YMMV).

 a) use the pre-composed Unicode characters in the Greek extended block
   (drag and drop from somewhere or use InsertSymbols).

 Using insertsymbols works, but it is a pain to use. Copy and pasting
 from external sources does not. I see the proper greek on screen, but
 the characters simply disappear in the pdf.

Very strange. Does this happen to the same characters with the same language
setting?

Characters disappearing in the PDF are usually an indication of an
incomplete font. On screen, the system (or the QT libs or fontconfig, or
X...) use auto-substitution of missing characters in the configured font
with characters from another known system font, xetex and luatex do not have
this nice feature.

Make sure the document text font contains the pre-composed characters in the
Greek-extended Unicode block.

 b) use the LGR transliteration which is described in the babel Greek
   documentation http://mirror.ctan.org/info/babel/babel.pdf

...

 But in order for this to work, some characters need to be considered
 as letters. These characters are , , ~, ‘,
 ’,  and |.

Yes, these are the characters used to mark accents in the LGR
transliteration (except for the single quotes - the corresponding accent
markers are the ASCII chars ` and '.

   There is no need to use ERT (except, maybe for the tilde character).

 This is exactly what I was trying to do, but I cannot get it to work.
 Example:

 If I enter

epim'eleia eato\~u

 and set the language to Greek Poutoniko, this is what I get in the pdf:

 επιμέλεια εατο\ῦ

 which is unsurprising, since the latex code in Viewsource is:

 \foreignlanguage{polutonikogreek}{\textless{}epim'eleia
 \textgreater{}eato\textbackslash{}\textasciitilde{}u}

 (You mentioned probelms with the tilde, but not even the breathing
 accents are correct. and the Latex looks completely wrong)

Sorry, I did not consider LyX' paranoia escaping of text input because
there is no problem using | in the unicodesymbols file (only ~, because
this is no-break space in normal LaTeX, disabled by Babel for Greek but
re-enabled by LyX).

The conversion of , , and | to \textless, \textgreater, and \textbar is
only required with the legacy OT1 font encoding (i.e. never in Greek and
not with LyX's default setting of T1). Write a bug report?

 If, instead, I enter  \textgreek{epim'eleia eato\~u} in ERT, I get
 the expected output

This means you should be fine with ERT for these characters (or
phrases/words containing these characters) and the tilde.
(The \textgreek is inserted by LyX when you set the language.)


   Alternatively, you can look in the file unicodesymbols in the LyXdir to
   see how LyX maps the Unicode characters to LaTeX code.

 c) if you load the LGRX extended font definitions for the Greek LGR fonts
   (http://milde.users.sourceforge.net/LGR/) in the latex preamble, you
   can also use standard accent commands (and their extensions) as
   described in http://milde.users.sourceforge.net/LGR/lgrxenc.pdf For
   single accents, this should also work with accent-... LyXfuns + base
   character in the minibuffer or bound to some key.


 I will have to try this once I get method (b) to work.

With XeTeX or LuaTeX, I recommend

* Use polyglossia instead of babel.

* Use a text font that contains the precomposed Greek characters
  (you can also set up a different font for Greek and Latin in the LaTeX
  preamble, see the fontspec manual).

* Use Unicode characters for the input. (The LGR transliteration does not
  work without legacy 8-bit LGR encoded fonts.)
  
Günter  

Re: Polytonic Greek input?

[Guenter Milde]

On 2012-04-23, René Grognard wrote:

 Can anyone remind me of how to input Greek (polytonic) accents?

There are (at least) 3 ways:

For all methods, you must mark the text in question as Greek.

a) use the pre-composed Unicode characters in the Greek extended block
   (drag and drop from somewhere or use InsertSymbols).

b) use the LGR transliteration which is described in the babel Greek
   documentation http://mirror.ctan.org/info/babel/babel.pdf
   
   There is no need to use ERT (except, maybe for the tilde character).
  
   If you start with method a), you can also use the ViewSource feature to
   see the translation to the LGR transliteration (unless the document
   output encoding is set to Unicode (utf8)).
   
   Alternatively, you can look in the file unicodesymbols in the LyXdir to
   see how LyX maps the Unicode characters to LaTeX code.
   
c) if you load the LGRX extended font definitions for the Greek LGR fonts
   (http://milde.users.sourceforge.net/LGR/) in the latex preamble, you
   can also use standard accent commands (and their extensions) as
   described in http://milde.users.sourceforge.net/LGR/lgrxenc.pdf For
   single accents, this should also work with accent-... LyXfuns + base
   character in the minibuffer or bound to some key.


For quotes that you can drag and drop from somewhere, I recommend a). For
larger input by hand without a Greek-Unicode keybord mapping b) might
be more convenient. All methods can also be combined (with some
experimentation).

 A Lyx newbee myself I am a long way to have it replacing TeXworks but
 under the latter and pdfLaTeX I use the command \usepackage{psibycus} %

LyX uses Greek fonts in the LGR font encoding instead of the ibycus
encoding, therefore the input conventions differ.


Günter

Re: Polytonic Greek input?

[stefano franchi]

On Sun, Apr 22, 2012 at 6:05 PM, stefano franchi
stefano.fran...@gmail.com wrote:
 Can anyone remind me of how to input Greek (polytonic) accents?

 I looked on the wiki, but I could not quite figure out how to enter
 the breathing accents. Searching the list did not help either. I used
 to know it, but I can't remember how I learned it...


I forgot to mention that the wiki page on Greek has a section called

Open problems and discussion
Accents

The section consists of three dead links


S.


-- 
__
Stefano Franchi
Associate Research Professor
Department of Hispanic Studies            Ph:   +1 (979) 845-2125
Texas AM University                          Fax:  +1 (979) 845-6421
College Station, Texas, USA

stef...@tamu.edu
http://stefano.cleinias.org

Re: Polytonic Greek input?

[stefano franchi]

Hi Gunter, thanks for the help. However, I am still having troubles.

BTW: I am using memoir with Luatex, language is utf8(Xetex), babel
loaded with Greek polutoniko (among others).

On Mon, Apr 23, 2012 at 2:48 AM, Guenter Milde mi...@users.sf.net wrote:
 On 2012-04-23, René Grognard wrote:

 For all methods, you must mark the text in question as Greek.
Done. In my case, Greek (polutoniko)


 a) use the pre-composed Unicode characters in the Greek extended block
   (drag and drop from somewhere or use InsertSymbols).

Using insertsymbols works, but it is a pain to use. Copy and pasting
from external sources does not. I see the proper greek on screen, but
the characters simply disappear in the pdf.


 b) use the LGR transliteration which is described in the babel Greek
   documentation http://mirror.ctan.org/info/babel/babel.pdf

   There is no need to use ERT (except, maybe for the tilde character).


By LGR transliteration I think you mean the following rules in the
Babel document:

But in order for this to work, some characters need to be considered
as letters. These characters are , , ~, ‘,
’,  and |.

This is exactly what I was trying to do, but I cannot get it to work. Example:

If I enter

epim'eleia eato\~u

and set the language to Greek Poutoniko, this is what I get in the pdf:

 επιμέλεια εατο\ῦ

which is unsurprising, since the latex code in Viewsource is:

\foreignlanguage{polutonikogreek}{\textless{}epim'eleia
\textgreater{}eato\textbackslash{}\textasciitilde{}u}

(You mentioned probelms with the tilde, but not even the breathing
accents are correct. and the Latex looks completely wrong)

If, instead, I enter  \textgreek{epim'eleia eato\~u} in ERT, I get
the expected output


   If you start with method a), you can also use the ViewSource feature to
   see the translation to the LGR transliteration (unless the document
   output encoding is set to Unicode (utf8)).


I am using utf8, so I guess this does not apply.

   Alternatively, you can look in the file unicodesymbols in the LyXdir to
   see how LyX maps the Unicode characters to LaTeX code.

 c) if you load the LGRX extended font definitions for the Greek LGR fonts
   (http://milde.users.sourceforge.net/LGR/) in the latex preamble, you
   can also use standard accent commands (and their extensions) as
   described in http://milde.users.sourceforge.net/LGR/lgrxenc.pdf For
   single accents, this should also work with accent-... LyXfuns + base
   character in the minibuffer or bound to some key.


I will have to try this once I get method (b) to work.



Thanks,

S.




-- 
__
Stefano Franchi
Associate Research Professor
Department of Hispanic Studies            Ph:   +1 (979) 845-2125
Texas AM University                          Fax:  +1 (979) 845-6421
College Station, Texas, USA

stef...@tamu.edu
http://stefano.cleinias.org

Re: Polytonic Greek input?

[Guenter Milde]

On 2012-04-23, stefano franchi wrote:

 BTW: I am using memoir with Luatex, language is utf8(Xetex), babel
 loaded with Greek polutoniko (among others).

This is important info. Many more things may go wrong in this case.

I have no experience with LuaTeX and I don't know whether it works with
the babel greek option at all (and which fonts are used in this case).

Maybe your document loads fontspec after babel and this way overwrites the
selection of LGR-encoded fonts for Greek. 

Do you use some hack to overwrite the font-encoding switch usually done
with \textgreek?


 On Mon, Apr 23, 2012 at 2:48 AM, Guenter Milde mi...@users.sf.net wrote:
 On 2012-04-23, René Grognard wrote:

 For all methods, you must mark the text in question as Greek.
 Done. In my case, Greek (polutoniko)

With LuaTeX, babel (instead of polyglossia) and Unicode (utf8 XeTeX), it
*may* be better not to set the language to Grekk (YMMV).

 a) use the pre-composed Unicode characters in the Greek extended block
   (drag and drop from somewhere or use InsertSymbols).

 Using insertsymbols works, but it is a pain to use. Copy and pasting
 from external sources does not. I see the proper greek on screen, but
 the characters simply disappear in the pdf.

Very strange. Does this happen to the same characters with the same language
setting?

Characters disappearing in the PDF are usually an indication of an
incomplete font. On screen, the system (or the QT libs or fontconfig, or
X...) use auto-substitution of missing characters in the configured font
with characters from another known system font, xetex and luatex do not have
this nice feature.

Make sure the document text font contains the pre-composed characters in the
Greek-extended Unicode block.

 b) use the LGR transliteration which is described in the babel Greek
   documentation http://mirror.ctan.org/info/babel/babel.pdf

...

 But in order for this to work, some characters need to be considered
 as letters. These characters are , , ~, ‘,
 ’,  and |.

Yes, these are the characters used to mark accents in the LGR
transliteration (except for the single quotes - the corresponding accent
markers are the ASCII chars ` and '.

   There is no need to use ERT (except, maybe for the tilde character).

 This is exactly what I was trying to do, but I cannot get it to work.
 Example:

 If I enter

epim'eleia eato\~u

 and set the language to Greek Poutoniko, this is what I get in the pdf:

 επιμέλεια εατο\ῦ

 which is unsurprising, since the latex code in Viewsource is:

 \foreignlanguage{polutonikogreek}{\textless{}epim'eleia
 \textgreater{}eato\textbackslash{}\textasciitilde{}u}

 (You mentioned probelms with the tilde, but not even the breathing
 accents are correct. and the Latex looks completely wrong)

Sorry, I did not consider LyX' paranoia escaping of text input because
there is no problem using | in the unicodesymbols file (only ~, because
this is no-break space in normal LaTeX, disabled by Babel for Greek but
re-enabled by LyX).

The conversion of , , and | to \textless, \textgreater, and \textbar is
only required with the legacy OT1 font encoding (i.e. never in Greek and
not with LyX's default setting of T1). Write a bug report?

 If, instead, I enter  \textgreek{epim'eleia eato\~u} in ERT, I get
 the expected output

This means you should be fine with ERT for these characters (or
phrases/words containing these characters) and the tilde.
(The \textgreek is inserted by LyX when you set the language.)


   Alternatively, you can look in the file unicodesymbols in the LyXdir to
   see how LyX maps the Unicode characters to LaTeX code.

 c) if you load the LGRX extended font definitions for the Greek LGR fonts
   (http://milde.users.sourceforge.net/LGR/) in the latex preamble, you
   can also use standard accent commands (and their extensions) as
   described in http://milde.users.sourceforge.net/LGR/lgrxenc.pdf For
   single accents, this should also work with accent-... LyXfuns + base
   character in the minibuffer or bound to some key.


 I will have to try this once I get method (b) to work.

With XeTeX or LuaTeX, I recommend

* Use polyglossia instead of babel.

* Use a text font that contains the precomposed Greek characters
  (you can also set up a different font for Greek and Latin in the LaTeX
  preamble, see the fontspec manual).

* Use Unicode characters for the input. (The LGR transliteration does not
  work without legacy 8-bit LGR encoded fonts.)
  
Günter  

Re: Polytonic Greek input?

[Guenter Milde]

On 2012-04-23, René Grognard wrote:

>> Can anyone remind me of how to input Greek (polytonic) accents?

There are (at least) 3 ways:

For all methods, you must mark the text in question as "Greek".

a) use the pre-composed Unicode characters in the "Greek extended" block
   (drag and drop from somewhere or use Insert>Symbols).

b) use the "LGR transliteration" which is described in the babel Greek
   documentation http://mirror.ctan.org/info/babel/babel.pdf
   
   There is no need to use ERT (except, maybe for the tilde character).
  
   If you start with method a), you can also use the View>Source feature to
   see the translation to the "LGR transliteration" (unless the document
   output encoding is set to Unicode (utf8)).
   
   Alternatively, you can look in the file "unicodesymbols" in the LyXdir to
   see how LyX maps the Unicode characters to LaTeX code.
   
c) if you load the "LGRX" extended font definitions for the Greek LGR fonts
   (http://milde.users.sourceforge.net/LGR/) in the latex preamble, you
   can also use standard accent commands (and their extensions) as
   described in http://milde.users.sourceforge.net/LGR/lgrxenc.pdf For
   single accents, this should also work with accent-... LyXfuns + base
   character in the minibuffer or bound to some key.


For quotes that you can drag and drop from somewhere, I recommend a). For
larger input "by hand" without a Greek-Unicode keybord mapping b) might
be more convenient. All methods can also be combined (with some
experimentation).

> A Lyx "newbee" myself I am a long way to have it replacing TeXworks but
> under the latter and pdfLaTeX I use the command \usepackage{psibycus} %

LyX uses Greek fonts in the LGR font encoding instead of the ibycus
encoding, therefore the input conventions differ.


Günter

Re: Polytonic Greek input?

[stefano franchi]

On Sun, Apr 22, 2012 at 6:05 PM, stefano franchi
 wrote:
> Can anyone remind me of how to input Greek (polytonic) accents?
>
> I looked on the wiki, but I could not quite figure out how to enter
> the breathing accents. Searching the list did not help either. I used
> to know it, but I can't remember how I learned it...
>

I forgot to mention that the wiki page on "Greek" has a section called

Open problems and discussion
Accents

The section consists of three dead links


S.


-- 
__
Stefano Franchi
Associate Research Professor
Department of Hispanic Studies            Ph:   +1 (979) 845-2125
Texas A University                          Fax:  +1 (979) 845-6421
College Station, Texas, USA

stef...@tamu.edu
http://stefano.cleinias.org

Re: Polytonic Greek input?

[stefano franchi]

Hi Gunter, thanks for the help. However, I am still having troubles.

BTW: I am using memoir with Luatex, language is utf8(Xetex), babel
loaded with Greek polutoniko (among others).

On Mon, Apr 23, 2012 at 2:48 AM, Guenter Milde  wrote:
> On 2012-04-23, René Grognard wrote:

> For all methods, you must mark the text in question as "Greek".
Done. In my case, Greek (polutoniko)

>
> a) use the pre-composed Unicode characters in the "Greek extended" block
>   (drag and drop from somewhere or use Insert>Symbols).

Using insert>symbols works, but it is a pain to use. Copy and pasting
from external sources does not. I see the proper greek on screen, but
the characters simply disappear in the pdf.


> b) use the "LGR transliteration" which is described in the babel Greek
>   documentation http://mirror.ctan.org/info/babel/babel.pdf
>
>   There is no need to use ERT (except, maybe for the tilde character).
>

By "LGR transliteration" I think you mean the following rules in the
Babel document:

But in order for this to work, some characters need to be considered
as letters. These characters are <, >, ~, ‘,
’, " and |.

This is exactly what I was trying to do, but I cannot get it to work. Example:

If I enter

eato\~u

and set the language to Greek Poutoniko, this is what I get in the pdf:

 <επιμέλεια >εατο\ῦ

which is unsurprising, since the latex code in View>source is:

\foreignlanguage{polutonikogreek}{\textless{}epim'eleia
\textgreater{}eato\textbackslash{}\textasciitilde{}u}

(You mentioned probelms with the tilde, but not even the breathing
accents are correct. and the Latex looks completely wrong)

If, instead, I enter  \textgreek{eato\~u} in ERT, I get
the expected output


>   If you start with method a), you can also use the View>Source feature to
>   see the translation to the "LGR transliteration" (unless the document
>   output encoding is set to Unicode (utf8)).
>

I am using utf8, so I guess this does not apply.

>   Alternatively, you can look in the file "unicodesymbols" in the LyXdir to
>   see how LyX maps the Unicode characters to LaTeX code.
>
> c) if you load the "LGRX" extended font definitions for the Greek LGR fonts
>   (http://milde.users.sourceforge.net/LGR/) in the latex preamble, you
>   can also use standard accent commands (and their extensions) as
>   described in http://milde.users.sourceforge.net/LGR/lgrxenc.pdf For
>   single accents, this should also work with accent-... LyXfuns + base
>   character in the minibuffer or bound to some key.
>

I will have to try this once I get method (b) to work.



Thanks,

S.




-- 
__
Stefano Franchi
Associate Research Professor
Department of Hispanic Studies            Ph:   +1 (979) 845-2125
Texas A University                          Fax:  +1 (979) 845-6421
College Station, Texas, USA

stef...@tamu.edu
http://stefano.cleinias.org

Re: Polytonic Greek input?

[Guenter Milde]

On 2012-04-23, stefano franchi wrote:

> BTW: I am using memoir with Luatex, language is utf8(Xetex), babel
> loaded with Greek polutoniko (among others).

This is important info. Many more things may go wrong in this case.

I have no experience with LuaTeX and I don't know whether it works with
the babel greek option at all (and which fonts are used in this case).

Maybe your document loads fontspec after babel and this way overwrites the
selection of LGR-encoded fonts for Greek. 

Do you use some hack to overwrite the font-encoding switch usually done
with \textgreek?


> On Mon, Apr 23, 2012 at 2:48 AM, Guenter Milde  wrote:
>> On 2012-04-23, René Grognard wrote:

>> For all methods, you must mark the text in question as "Greek".
> Done. In my case, Greek (polutoniko)

With LuaTeX, babel (instead of polyglossia) and Unicode (utf8 XeTeX), it
*may* be better not to set the language to Grekk (YMMV).

>> a) use the pre-composed Unicode characters in the "Greek extended" block
>>   (drag and drop from somewhere or use Insert>Symbols).

> Using insert>symbols works, but it is a pain to use. Copy and pasting
> from external sources does not. I see the proper greek on screen, but
> the characters simply disappear in the pdf.

Very strange. Does this happen to the same characters with the same language
setting?

Characters "disappearing" in the PDF are usually an indication of an
incomplete font. On screen, the system (or the QT libs or fontconfig, or
X...) use auto-substitution of missing characters in the configured font
with characters from another known system font, xetex and luatex do not have
this nice feature.

Make sure the document text font contains the pre-composed characters in the
Greek-extended Unicode block.

>> b) use the "LGR transliteration" which is described in the babel Greek
>>   documentation http://mirror.ctan.org/info/babel/babel.pdf

...

> But in order for this to work, some characters need to be considered
> as letters. These characters are <, >, ~, ‘,
> ’, " and |.

Yes, these are the characters used to mark accents in the LGR
transliteration (except for the single quotes - the corresponding accent
markers are the ASCII chars ` and '.

>>   There is no need to use ERT (except, maybe for the tilde character).

> This is exactly what I was trying to do, but I cannot get it to work.
> Example:

> If I enter

>eato\~u

> and set the language to Greek Poutoniko, this is what I get in the pdf:

> <επιμέλεια >εατο\ῦ

> which is unsurprising, since the latex code in View>source is:

> \foreignlanguage{polutonikogreek}{\textless{}epim'eleia
> \textgreater{}eato\textbackslash{}\textasciitilde{}u}

> (You mentioned probelms with the tilde, but not even the breathing
> accents are correct. and the Latex looks completely wrong)

Sorry, I did not consider LyX' "paranoia escaping" of text input because
there is no problem using <>| in the unicodesymbols file (only ~, because
this is no-break space in "normal" LaTeX, disabled by Babel for Greek but
re-enabled by LyX).

The conversion of <, >, and | to \textless, \textgreater, and \textbar is
only required with the legacy OT1 font encoding (i.e. never in Greek and
not with LyX's default setting of T1). Write a bug report?

> If, instead, I enter  \textgreek{eato\~u} in ERT, I get
> the expected output

This means you should be fine with ERT for these characters (or
phrases/words containing these characters) and the tilde.
(The \textgreek is inserted by LyX when you set the language.)


>>   Alternatively, you can look in the file "unicodesymbols" in the LyXdir to
>>   see how LyX maps the Unicode characters to LaTeX code.

>> c) if you load the "LGRX" extended font definitions for the Greek LGR fonts
>>   (http://milde.users.sourceforge.net/LGR/) in the latex preamble, you
>>   can also use standard accent commands (and their extensions) as
>>   described in http://milde.users.sourceforge.net/LGR/lgrxenc.pdf For
>>   single accents, this should also work with accent-... LyXfuns + base
>>   character in the minibuffer or bound to some key.


> I will have to try this once I get method (b) to work.

With XeTeX or LuaTeX, I recommend

* Use polyglossia instead of babel.

* Use a text font that contains the precomposed Greek characters
  (you can also set up a different font for Greek and Latin in the LaTeX
  preamble, see the fontspec manual).

* Use Unicode characters for the input. (The LGR transliteration does not
  work without legacy 8-bit LGR encoded fonts.)
  
Günter  

RE: Polytonic Greek input?

[René Grognard]

A Lyx newbee myself I am a long way to have it replacing TeXworks but under 
the latter and pdfLaTeX I use the command 
\usepackage{psibycus} % to use scalable Type1 fonts
and with an ADSL connection to the web TeXworks, at least  in my configuration, 
would automatically download what is required from CTAN. See 
http://ctan.tche.br/fonts/greek/ibygrk/doc/generic/ibycus4/README
for info on Ibycus4, version 4.5 as of 2004-10-27 Then for instance:
 {\greek{})Apollw'nios Eu)dh'mw| xai'rein} 
 {\greek{}eu)tu'xei} 
would reproduce Apollonius' greetings and Vale to Eudemus: the oxytonic accent 
on the omega is given by w' ;  the soft (lenis) breathing on the upsilon by u); 
a subscripted iota on omega is w|; etc... as indicated in the README above. 
Ibycus gives alternative packages to write Ancient Greek poetry.
A Lyx expert might tell us how to include Ibycus in Lyx. Date: Sun, 22 Apr 
2012 18:05:37 -0500
 Subject: Polytonic Greek input?
 From: stefano.fran...@gmail.com
 To: lyx-users@lists.lyx.org
 
 Can anyone remind me of how to input Greek (polytonic) accents?
 
 I looked on the wiki, but I could not quite figure out how to enter
 the breathing accents. Searching the list did not help either. I used
 to know it, but I can't remember how I learned it...
 
 Thanks,
 
 Stefano
 
 
 
 -- 
 __
 Stefano Franchi
 Associate Research Professor
 Department of Hispanic StudiesPh:   +1 (979) 845-2125
 Texas AM University  Fax:  +1 (979) 845-6421
 College Station, Texas, USA
 
 stef...@tamu.edu
 http://stefano.cleinias.org
  

RE: Polytonic Greek input?

[René Grognard]

A Lyx newbee myself I am a long way to have it replacing TeXworks but under 
the latter and pdfLaTeX I use the command 
\usepackage{psibycus} % to use scalable Type1 fonts
and with an ADSL connection to the web TeXworks, at least  in my configuration, 
would automatically download what is required from CTAN. See 
http://ctan.tche.br/fonts/greek/ibygrk/doc/generic/ibycus4/README
for info on Ibycus4, version 4.5 as of 2004-10-27 Then for instance:
 {\greek{})Apollw'nios Eu)dh'mw| xai'rein} 
 {\greek{}eu)tu'xei} 
would reproduce Apollonius' greetings and Vale to Eudemus: the oxytonic accent 
on the omega is given by w' ;  the soft (lenis) breathing on the upsilon by u); 
a subscripted iota on omega is w|; etc... as indicated in the README above. 
Ibycus gives alternative packages to write Ancient Greek poetry.
A Lyx expert might tell us how to include Ibycus in Lyx. Date: Sun, 22 Apr 
2012 18:05:37 -0500
 Subject: Polytonic Greek input?
 From: stefano.fran...@gmail.com
 To: lyx-users@lists.lyx.org
 
 Can anyone remind me of how to input Greek (polytonic) accents?
 
 I looked on the wiki, but I could not quite figure out how to enter
 the breathing accents. Searching the list did not help either. I used
 to know it, but I can't remember how I learned it...
 
 Thanks,
 
 Stefano
 
 
 
 -- 
 __
 Stefano Franchi
 Associate Research Professor
 Department of Hispanic StudiesPh:   +1 (979) 845-2125
 Texas AM University  Fax:  +1 (979) 845-6421
 College Station, Texas, USA
 
 stef...@tamu.edu
 http://stefano.cleinias.org
  

RE: Polytonic Greek input?

[René Grognard]

A Lyx "newbee" myself I am a long way to have it replacing TeXworks but under 
the latter and pdfLaTeX I use the command 
\usepackage{psibycus} % to use scalable Type1 fonts
and with an ADSL connection to the web TeXworks, at least  in my configuration, 
would automatically download what is required from CTAN. See 
http://ctan.tche.br/fonts/greek/ibygrk/doc/generic/ibycus4/README
for info on Ibycus4, version 4.5 as of 2004-10-27 Then for instance:
 {\greek{})Apollw'nios Eu)dh'mw| xai'rein} 
 {\greek{}eu)tu'xei} 
would reproduce Apollonius' greetings and Vale to Eudemus: the oxytonic accent 
on the omega is given by w' ;  the soft (lenis) breathing on the upsilon by u); 
a subscripted iota on omega is w|; etc... as indicated in the README above. 
Ibycus gives alternative packages to write Ancient Greek poetry.
A Lyx expert might tell us how to include Ibycus in Lyx.> Date: Sun, 22 Apr 
2012 18:05:37 -0500
> Subject: Polytonic Greek input?
> From: stefano.fran...@gmail.com
> To: lyx-users@lists.lyx.org
> 
> Can anyone remind me of how to input Greek (polytonic) accents?
> 
> I looked on the wiki, but I could not quite figure out how to enter
> the breathing accents. Searching the list did not help either. I used
> to know it, but I can't remember how I learned it...
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Stefano
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> __
> Stefano Franchi
> Associate Research Professor
> Department of Hispanic StudiesPh:   +1 (979) 845-2125
> Texas A University  Fax:  +1 (979) 845-6421
> College Station, Texas, USA
> 
> stef...@tamu.edu
> http://stefano.cleinias.org