Re: Why does lyx use it's own keyboard instead of the systems?

[Dov Feldstern]

Micha Feigin wrote:

On Tue, 10 Mar 2009 11:44:46 +0200
Ronen Abravanel ron...@gmail.com wrote:


Before you rush into this change - Consider the following usecase:
Switching to math - When I'm in math-mode, I always want my keyboard layout
to be English. While In windows, The current keyboard layout override the
global one (If you put the cursor in an Hebrew context, the language will
switch to Hebrew, If you put your cursor in English context - you'll write
in English).
When I'm writing document, I want the Ctrl+m will be the only thing I need
to do in order to start typing math. Ctrl-m Alt-Shift Is match to
expensive..



good point, but you also have two input senarios in math.
1. Entering parameters (regular typing). AFAIK it should always be in english
because I don't think that latex can handle anything else
2. in text mode inside math mode, where you want to be able to type both
(although at the moment it requires explicitly entering the \R{} macro to get
hebrew in there

Does everyone agree on the first point and are you willing to manually change
in the second case or do you want some other behviour?


So - If LyX will use the native-system-keyboard-layout - It will have to be
able to change it depending the current context (Math\Regular) - And in
every OS.

On Tue, Mar 10, 2009 at 9:59 AM, Abdelrazak Younes you...@lyx.org wrote:


Micha Feigin wrote:


Sorry, sent off list by mistake

On Mon, 9 Mar 2009 22:05:51 +0100
Jean-Marc Lasgouttes lasgout...@lyx.org wrote:

 There are two issues. For running the dictionary you need to know  the

language.
For hebrew and arabic it's another issue, you need to know the  system
language
so that you know directionality. Hebrew is right to left. For  hebrew
characters
it may be easy to decide, for what about spaces and numbers? For  these
we need
to know the system keyboard language and not guess it from the
 character.

Under windows I know it's possible since for example word does it.
 Question is
whether this is possible to know under linux (I guess so since  there
are panel
applets that show the language). Which again comes down to the  question
whether
there is a technical issue why to work this way or not.


So you want to change language when the keyboard layout is changed at
 system level, right?
I never thought of these layouts as indicators of the actual  language.
If Qt gives us
this information, we should be able to do it.

JMarc



For every other program the system language is used for input (alt-shift
in my
case). So for example when writing mail or using oowriter I change the
system
language to change input. Lyx is the only exeption where I __have__ to
keep the
system language for english and bind (f12 in this case) to language
hebrew. It
makes things incosistent and non-intuitive, esspecially for new users.


I agree. For RTL languages, it makes a lot of sense to change the current
language together with the system. Advanced users wishing to change the
language independently should be able to disable this feature though.

Now, you have to find someone willing to implement this feature ;-)

FYI, a year or two ago I advocated that the text direction should be based
uniquely on the encoding, independently of the language settings, like Qt
does. But I failed to convince other developers.

Dov, are you reading this? ;-)

Abdel.



A little late, but yes, I am still lurking on the mailing lists... ;)

I think the main reason (to answer the title question) is that we don't know how 
to get/set the system-wide keyboard language in a cross-platform way. If it's 
possible to do that, then I think it should be fairly simple to implement a 
solution along the following lines:


Ideally, if it *were* possible to detect the system-wide keyboard language 
setting, then LyX should (optionally! for users that *want* this feature) set 
it's internal language to the system-wide setting, plain and simple. The only 
thing to make sure, though, is that in the same manner, whenever LyX chooses to 
change it's internal language, it should also *set* the system-wide keyboard 
setting to that language. I think that that would solve the issue raised by 
Ronen: when entering a math inset, LyX would set the internal, as well as the 
system-wide, language to english (or latex, technically? I forget the exact 
details), which would mean that the math text would be set correctly; and when 
exiting that inset, LyX automatically sets the language back to whatever it was 
before entering the inset. Similarly, when moving the cursor over existing text, 
LyX changes the language to match the underlying text. I'm almost certain that 
LyX already does all of this language setting --- except that not at the 
system-wide level, that's what would have to be added.


Note, however, that even if this is implemented, I think I would *still* choose 
to use LyX's keymaps, for reasons that I've explained elsewhere (last time 
around was at 

Re: Why does lyx use it's own keyboard instead of the systems?

[Dov Feldstern]

Micha Feigin wrote:

On Tue, 10 Mar 2009 11:44:46 +0200
Ronen Abravanel ron...@gmail.com wrote:


Before you rush into this change - Consider the following usecase:
Switching to math - When I'm in math-mode, I always want my keyboard layout
to be English. While In windows, The current keyboard layout override the
global one (If you put the cursor in an Hebrew context, the language will
switch to Hebrew, If you put your cursor in English context - you'll write
in English).
When I'm writing document, I want the Ctrl+m will be the only thing I need
to do in order to start typing math. Ctrl-m Alt-Shift Is match to
expensive..



good point, but you also have two input senarios in math.
1. Entering parameters (regular typing). AFAIK it should always be in english
because I don't think that latex can handle anything else
2. in text mode inside math mode, where you want to be able to type both
(although at the moment it requires explicitly entering the \R{} macro to get
hebrew in there

Does everyone agree on the first point and are you willing to manually change
in the second case or do you want some other behviour?


So - If LyX will use the native-system-keyboard-layout - It will have to be
able to change it depending the current context (Math\Regular) - And in
every OS.

On Tue, Mar 10, 2009 at 9:59 AM, Abdelrazak Younes you...@lyx.org wrote:


Micha Feigin wrote:


Sorry, sent off list by mistake

On Mon, 9 Mar 2009 22:05:51 +0100
Jean-Marc Lasgouttes lasgout...@lyx.org wrote:

 There are two issues. For running the dictionary you need to know  the

language.
For hebrew and arabic it's another issue, you need to know the  system
language
so that you know directionality. Hebrew is right to left. For  hebrew
characters
it may be easy to decide, for what about spaces and numbers? For  these
we need
to know the system keyboard language and not guess it from the
 character.

Under windows I know it's possible since for example word does it.
 Question is
whether this is possible to know under linux (I guess so since  there
are panel
applets that show the language). Which again comes down to the  question
whether
there is a technical issue why to work this way or not.


So you want to change language when the keyboard layout is changed at
 system level, right?
I never thought of these layouts as indicators of the actual  language.
If Qt gives us
this information, we should be able to do it.

JMarc



For every other program the system language is used for input (alt-shift
in my
case). So for example when writing mail or using oowriter I change the
system
language to change input. Lyx is the only exeption where I __have__ to
keep the
system language for english and bind (f12 in this case) to language
hebrew. It
makes things incosistent and non-intuitive, esspecially for new users.


I agree. For RTL languages, it makes a lot of sense to change the current
language together with the system. Advanced users wishing to change the
language independently should be able to disable this feature though.

Now, you have to find someone willing to implement this feature ;-)

FYI, a year or two ago I advocated that the text direction should be based
uniquely on the encoding, independently of the language settings, like Qt
does. But I failed to convince other developers.

Dov, are you reading this? ;-)

Abdel.



A little late, but yes, I am still lurking on the mailing lists... ;)

I think the main reason (to answer the title question) is that we don't know how 
to get/set the system-wide keyboard language in a cross-platform way. If it's 
possible to do that, then I think it should be fairly simple to implement a 
solution along the following lines:


Ideally, if it *were* possible to detect the system-wide keyboard language 
setting, then LyX should (optionally! for users that *want* this feature) set 
it's internal language to the system-wide setting, plain and simple. The only 
thing to make sure, though, is that in the same manner, whenever LyX chooses to 
change it's internal language, it should also *set* the system-wide keyboard 
setting to that language. I think that that would solve the issue raised by 
Ronen: when entering a math inset, LyX would set the internal, as well as the 
system-wide, language to english (or latex, technically? I forget the exact 
details), which would mean that the math text would be set correctly; and when 
exiting that inset, LyX automatically sets the language back to whatever it was 
before entering the inset. Similarly, when moving the cursor over existing text, 
LyX changes the language to match the underlying text. I'm almost certain that 
LyX already does all of this language setting --- except that not at the 
system-wide level, that's what would have to be added.


Note, however, that even if this is implemented, I think I would *still* choose 
to use LyX's keymaps, for reasons that I've explained elsewhere (last time 
around was at 

Re: Why does lyx use it's own keyboard instead of the systems?

[Dov Feldstern]

Micha Feigin wrote:

On Tue, 10 Mar 2009 11:44:46 +0200
Ronen Abravanel  wrote:


Before you rush into this change - Consider the following usecase:
Switching to math - When I'm in math-mode, I always want my keyboard layout
to be English. While In windows, The current keyboard layout override the
global one (If you put the cursor in an Hebrew context, the language will
switch to Hebrew, If you put your cursor in English context - you'll write
in English).
When I'm writing document, I want the Ctrl+m will be the only thing I need
to do in order to start typing math. "Ctrl-m Alt-Shift" Is match to
expensive..



good point, but you also have two input senarios in math.
1. Entering parameters (regular typing). AFAIK it should always be in english
because I don't think that latex can handle anything else
2. in text mode inside math mode, where you want to be able to type both
(although at the moment it requires explicitly entering the \R{} macro to get
hebrew in there

Does everyone agree on the first point and are you willing to manually change
in the second case or do you want some other behviour?


So - If LyX will use the native-system-keyboard-layout - It will have to be
able to change it depending the current context (Math\Regular) - And in
every OS.

On Tue, Mar 10, 2009 at 9:59 AM, Abdelrazak Younes  wrote:


Micha Feigin wrote:


Sorry, sent off list by mistake

On Mon, 9 Mar 2009 22:05:51 +0100
Jean-Marc Lasgouttes  wrote:

 There are two issues. For running the dictionary you need to know  the

language.
For hebrew and arabic it's another issue, you need to know the  system
language
so that you know directionality. Hebrew is right to left. For  hebrew
characters
it may be easy to decide, for what about spaces and numbers? For  these
we need
to know the system keyboard language and not guess it from the
 character.

Under windows I know it's possible since for example word does it.
 Question is
whether this is possible to know under linux (I guess so since  there
are panel
applets that show the language). Which again comes down to the  question
whether
there is a technical issue why to work this way or not.


So you want to change language when the keyboard layout is changed at
 system level, right?
I never thought of these layouts as indicators of the actual  language.
If Qt gives us
this information, we should be able to do it.

JMarc



For every other program the system language is used for input (alt-shift
in my
case). So for example when writing mail or using oowriter I change the
system
language to change input. Lyx is the only exeption where I __have__ to
keep the
system language for english and bind (f12 in this case) to language
hebrew. It
makes things incosistent and non-intuitive, esspecially for new users.


I agree. For RTL languages, it makes a lot of sense to change the current
language together with the system. Advanced users wishing to change the
language independently should be able to disable this feature though.

Now, you have to find someone willing to implement this feature ;-)

FYI, a year or two ago I advocated that the text direction should be based
uniquely on the encoding, independently of the language settings, like Qt
does. But I failed to convince other developers.

Dov, are you reading this? ;-)

Abdel.



A little late, but yes, I am still lurking on the mailing lists... ;)

I think the main reason (to answer the title question) is that we don't know how 
to get/set the system-wide keyboard language in a cross-platform way. If it's 
possible to do that, then I think it should be fairly simple to implement a 
solution along the following lines:


Ideally, if it *were* possible to detect the system-wide keyboard language 
setting, then LyX should (optionally! for users that *want* this feature) set 
it's internal language to the system-wide setting, plain and simple. The only 
thing to make sure, though, is that in the same manner, whenever LyX chooses to 
change it's internal language, it should also *set* the system-wide keyboard 
setting to that language. I think that that would solve the issue raised by 
Ronen: when entering a math inset, LyX would set the internal, as well as the 
system-wide, language to english (or latex, technically? I forget the exact 
details), which would mean that the math text would be set correctly; and when 
exiting that inset, LyX automatically sets the language back to whatever it was 
before entering the inset. Similarly, when moving the cursor over existing text, 
LyX changes the language to match the underlying text. I'm almost certain that 
LyX already does all of this language setting --- except that not at the 
system-wide level, that's what would have to be added.


Note, however, that even if this is implemented, I think I would *still* choose 
to use LyX's keymaps, for reasons that I've explained elsewhere (last time 
around was at 

Re: Why does lyx use it's own keyboard instead of the systems?

[Abdelrazak Younes]

Micha Feigin wrote:

Sorry, sent off list by mistake

On Mon, 9 Mar 2009 22:05:51 +0100
Jean-Marc Lasgouttes lasgout...@lyx.org wrote:

There are two issues. For running the dictionary you need to know  
the language.
For hebrew and arabic it's another issue, you need to know the  
system language
so that you know directionality. Hebrew is right to left. For  
hebrew characters
it may be easy to decide, for what about spaces and numbers? For  
these we need
to know the system keyboard language and not guess it from the  
character.


Under windows I know it's possible since for example word does it.  
Question is
whether this is possible to know under linux (I guess so since  
there are panel
applets that show the language). Which again comes down to the  
question whether

there is a technical issue why to work this way or not.
So you want to change language when the keyboard layout is changed at  
system level, right?
I never thought of these layouts as indicators of the actual  
language. If Qt gives us

this information, we should be able to do it.

JMarc



For every other program the system language is used for input (alt-shift in my
case). So for example when writing mail or using oowriter I change the system
language to change input. Lyx is the only exeption where I __have__ to keep the
system language for english and bind (f12 in this case) to language hebrew. It
makes things incosistent and non-intuitive, esspecially for new users.


I agree. For RTL languages, it makes a lot of sense to change the 
current language together with the system. Advanced users wishing to 
change the language independently should be able to disable this feature 
though.


Now, you have to find someone willing to implement this feature ;-)

FYI, a year or two ago I advocated that the text direction should be 
based uniquely on the encoding, independently of the language settings, 
like Qt does. But I failed to convince other developers.


Dov, are you reading this? ;-)

Abdel.

Re: Why does lyx use it's own keyboard instead of the systems?

[Ronen Abravanel]

Before you rush into this change - Consider the following usecase:
Switching to math - When I'm in math-mode, I always want my keyboard layout
to be English. While In windows, The current keyboard layout override the
global one (If you put the cursor in an Hebrew context, the language will
switch to Hebrew, If you put your cursor in English context - you'll write
in English).
When I'm writing document, I want the Ctrl+m will be the only thing I need
to do in order to start typing math. Ctrl-m Alt-Shift Is match to
expensive..

So - If LyX will use the native-system-keyboard-layout - It will have to be
able to change it depending the current context (Math\Regular) - And in
every OS.

On Tue, Mar 10, 2009 at 9:59 AM, Abdelrazak Younes you...@lyx.org wrote:

 Micha Feigin wrote:

 Sorry, sent off list by mistake

 On Mon, 9 Mar 2009 22:05:51 +0100
 Jean-Marc Lasgouttes lasgout...@lyx.org wrote:

  There are two issues. For running the dictionary you need to know  the
 language.
 For hebrew and arabic it's another issue, you need to know the  system
 language
 so that you know directionality. Hebrew is right to left. For  hebrew
 characters
 it may be easy to decide, for what about spaces and numbers? For  these
 we need
 to know the system keyboard language and not guess it from the
  character.

 Under windows I know it's possible since for example word does it.
  Question is
 whether this is possible to know under linux (I guess so since  there
 are panel
 applets that show the language). Which again comes down to the  question
 whether
 there is a technical issue why to work this way or not.

 So you want to change language when the keyboard layout is changed at
  system level, right?
 I never thought of these layouts as indicators of the actual  language.
 If Qt gives us
 this information, we should be able to do it.

 JMarc


 For every other program the system language is used for input (alt-shift
 in my
 case). So for example when writing mail or using oowriter I change the
 system
 language to change input. Lyx is the only exeption where I __have__ to
 keep the
 system language for english and bind (f12 in this case) to language
 hebrew. It
 makes things incosistent and non-intuitive, esspecially for new users.


 I agree. For RTL languages, it makes a lot of sense to change the current
 language together with the system. Advanced users wishing to change the
 language independently should be able to disable this feature though.

 Now, you have to find someone willing to implement this feature ;-)

 FYI, a year or two ago I advocated that the text direction should be based
 uniquely on the encoding, independently of the language settings, like Qt
 does. But I failed to convince other developers.

 Dov, are you reading this? ;-)

 Abdel.

Re: Why does lyx use it's own keyboard instead of the systems?

[Pavel Sanda]

Micha Feigin wrote:
 system language for english and bind (f12 in this case) to language hebrew. It
 makes things incosistent and non-intuitive, esspecially for new users.

iirc one reason for the current way was to have crossplatform consistent 
behaviour.

pavel

Re: Why does lyx use it's own keyboard instead of the systems?

[Micha Feigin]

On Tue, 10 Mar 2009 11:44:46 +0200
Ronen Abravanel ron...@gmail.com wrote:

 Before you rush into this change - Consider the following usecase:
 Switching to math - When I'm in math-mode, I always want my keyboard layout
 to be English. While In windows, The current keyboard layout override the
 global one (If you put the cursor in an Hebrew context, the language will
 switch to Hebrew, If you put your cursor in English context - you'll write
 in English).
 When I'm writing document, I want the Ctrl+m will be the only thing I need
 to do in order to start typing math. Ctrl-m Alt-Shift Is match to
 expensive..
 

good point, but you also have two input senarios in math.
1. Entering parameters (regular typing). AFAIK it should always be in english
because I don't think that latex can handle anything else
2. in text mode inside math mode, where you want to be able to type both
(although at the moment it requires explicitly entering the \R{} macro to get
hebrew in there

Does everyone agree on the first point and are you willing to manually change
in the second case or do you want some other behviour?

 So - If LyX will use the native-system-keyboard-layout - It will have to be
 able to change it depending the current context (Math\Regular) - And in
 every OS.
 
 On Tue, Mar 10, 2009 at 9:59 AM, Abdelrazak Younes you...@lyx.org wrote:
 
  Micha Feigin wrote:
 
  Sorry, sent off list by mistake
 
  On Mon, 9 Mar 2009 22:05:51 +0100
  Jean-Marc Lasgouttes lasgout...@lyx.org wrote:
 
   There are two issues. For running the dictionary you need to know  the
  language.
  For hebrew and arabic it's another issue, you need to know the  system
  language
  so that you know directionality. Hebrew is right to left. For  hebrew
  characters
  it may be easy to decide, for what about spaces and numbers? For  these
  we need
  to know the system keyboard language and not guess it from the
   character.
 
  Under windows I know it's possible since for example word does it.
   Question is
  whether this is possible to know under linux (I guess so since  there
  are panel
  applets that show the language). Which again comes down to the  question
  whether
  there is a technical issue why to work this way or not.
 
  So you want to change language when the keyboard layout is changed at
   system level, right?
  I never thought of these layouts as indicators of the actual  language.
  If Qt gives us
  this information, we should be able to do it.
 
  JMarc
 
 
  For every other program the system language is used for input (alt-shift
  in my
  case). So for example when writing mail or using oowriter I change the
  system
  language to change input. Lyx is the only exeption where I __have__ to
  keep the
  system language for english and bind (f12 in this case) to language
  hebrew. It
  makes things incosistent and non-intuitive, esspecially for new users.
 
 
  I agree. For RTL languages, it makes a lot of sense to change the current
  language together with the system. Advanced users wishing to change the
  language independently should be able to disable this feature though.
 
  Now, you have to find someone willing to implement this feature ;-)
 
  FYI, a year or two ago I advocated that the text direction should be based
  uniquely on the encoding, independently of the language settings, like Qt
  does. But I failed to convince other developers.
 
  Dov, are you reading this? ;-)
 
  Abdel.
 
 

Re: Why does lyx use it's own keyboard instead of the systems?

[Abdelrazak Younes]

Micha Feigin wrote:

Sorry, sent off list by mistake

On Mon, 9 Mar 2009 22:05:51 +0100
Jean-Marc Lasgouttes lasgout...@lyx.org wrote:

There are two issues. For running the dictionary you need to know  
the language.
For hebrew and arabic it's another issue, you need to know the  
system language
so that you know directionality. Hebrew is right to left. For  
hebrew characters
it may be easy to decide, for what about spaces and numbers? For  
these we need
to know the system keyboard language and not guess it from the  
character.


Under windows I know it's possible since for example word does it.  
Question is
whether this is possible to know under linux (I guess so since  
there are panel
applets that show the language). Which again comes down to the  
question whether

there is a technical issue why to work this way or not.
So you want to change language when the keyboard layout is changed at  
system level, right?
I never thought of these layouts as indicators of the actual  
language. If Qt gives us

this information, we should be able to do it.

JMarc



For every other program the system language is used for input (alt-shift in my
case). So for example when writing mail or using oowriter I change the system
language to change input. Lyx is the only exeption where I __have__ to keep the
system language for english and bind (f12 in this case) to language hebrew. It
makes things incosistent and non-intuitive, esspecially for new users.


I agree. For RTL languages, it makes a lot of sense to change the 
current language together with the system. Advanced users wishing to 
change the language independently should be able to disable this feature 
though.


Now, you have to find someone willing to implement this feature ;-)

FYI, a year or two ago I advocated that the text direction should be 
based uniquely on the encoding, independently of the language settings, 
like Qt does. But I failed to convince other developers.


Dov, are you reading this? ;-)

Abdel.

Re: Why does lyx use it's own keyboard instead of the systems?

[Ronen Abravanel]

Before you rush into this change - Consider the following usecase:
Switching to math - When I'm in math-mode, I always want my keyboard layout
to be English. While In windows, The current keyboard layout override the
global one (If you put the cursor in an Hebrew context, the language will
switch to Hebrew, If you put your cursor in English context - you'll write
in English).
When I'm writing document, I want the Ctrl+m will be the only thing I need
to do in order to start typing math. Ctrl-m Alt-Shift Is match to
expensive..

So - If LyX will use the native-system-keyboard-layout - It will have to be
able to change it depending the current context (Math\Regular) - And in
every OS.

On Tue, Mar 10, 2009 at 9:59 AM, Abdelrazak Younes you...@lyx.org wrote:

 Micha Feigin wrote:

 Sorry, sent off list by mistake

 On Mon, 9 Mar 2009 22:05:51 +0100
 Jean-Marc Lasgouttes lasgout...@lyx.org wrote:

  There are two issues. For running the dictionary you need to know  the
 language.
 For hebrew and arabic it's another issue, you need to know the  system
 language
 so that you know directionality. Hebrew is right to left. For  hebrew
 characters
 it may be easy to decide, for what about spaces and numbers? For  these
 we need
 to know the system keyboard language and not guess it from the
  character.

 Under windows I know it's possible since for example word does it.
  Question is
 whether this is possible to know under linux (I guess so since  there
 are panel
 applets that show the language). Which again comes down to the  question
 whether
 there is a technical issue why to work this way or not.

 So you want to change language when the keyboard layout is changed at
  system level, right?
 I never thought of these layouts as indicators of the actual  language.
 If Qt gives us
 this information, we should be able to do it.

 JMarc


 For every other program the system language is used for input (alt-shift
 in my
 case). So for example when writing mail or using oowriter I change the
 system
 language to change input. Lyx is the only exeption where I __have__ to
 keep the
 system language for english and bind (f12 in this case) to language
 hebrew. It
 makes things incosistent and non-intuitive, esspecially for new users.


 I agree. For RTL languages, it makes a lot of sense to change the current
 language together with the system. Advanced users wishing to change the
 language independently should be able to disable this feature though.

 Now, you have to find someone willing to implement this feature ;-)

 FYI, a year or two ago I advocated that the text direction should be based
 uniquely on the encoding, independently of the language settings, like Qt
 does. But I failed to convince other developers.

 Dov, are you reading this? ;-)

 Abdel.

Re: Why does lyx use it's own keyboard instead of the systems?

[Pavel Sanda]

Micha Feigin wrote:
 system language for english and bind (f12 in this case) to language hebrew. It
 makes things incosistent and non-intuitive, esspecially for new users.

iirc one reason for the current way was to have crossplatform consistent 
behaviour.

pavel

Re: Why does lyx use it's own keyboard instead of the systems?

[Micha Feigin]

On Tue, 10 Mar 2009 11:44:46 +0200
Ronen Abravanel ron...@gmail.com wrote:

 Before you rush into this change - Consider the following usecase:
 Switching to math - When I'm in math-mode, I always want my keyboard layout
 to be English. While In windows, The current keyboard layout override the
 global one (If you put the cursor in an Hebrew context, the language will
 switch to Hebrew, If you put your cursor in English context - you'll write
 in English).
 When I'm writing document, I want the Ctrl+m will be the only thing I need
 to do in order to start typing math. Ctrl-m Alt-Shift Is match to
 expensive..
 

good point, but you also have two input senarios in math.
1. Entering parameters (regular typing). AFAIK it should always be in english
because I don't think that latex can handle anything else
2. in text mode inside math mode, where you want to be able to type both
(although at the moment it requires explicitly entering the \R{} macro to get
hebrew in there

Does everyone agree on the first point and are you willing to manually change
in the second case or do you want some other behviour?

 So - If LyX will use the native-system-keyboard-layout - It will have to be
 able to change it depending the current context (Math\Regular) - And in
 every OS.
 
 On Tue, Mar 10, 2009 at 9:59 AM, Abdelrazak Younes you...@lyx.org wrote:
 
  Micha Feigin wrote:
 
  Sorry, sent off list by mistake
 
  On Mon, 9 Mar 2009 22:05:51 +0100
  Jean-Marc Lasgouttes lasgout...@lyx.org wrote:
 
   There are two issues. For running the dictionary you need to know  the
  language.
  For hebrew and arabic it's another issue, you need to know the  system
  language
  so that you know directionality. Hebrew is right to left. For  hebrew
  characters
  it may be easy to decide, for what about spaces and numbers? For  these
  we need
  to know the system keyboard language and not guess it from the
   character.
 
  Under windows I know it's possible since for example word does it.
   Question is
  whether this is possible to know under linux (I guess so since  there
  are panel
  applets that show the language). Which again comes down to the  question
  whether
  there is a technical issue why to work this way or not.
 
  So you want to change language when the keyboard layout is changed at
   system level, right?
  I never thought of these layouts as indicators of the actual  language.
  If Qt gives us
  this information, we should be able to do it.
 
  JMarc
 
 
  For every other program the system language is used for input (alt-shift
  in my
  case). So for example when writing mail or using oowriter I change the
  system
  language to change input. Lyx is the only exeption where I __have__ to
  keep the
  system language for english and bind (f12 in this case) to language
  hebrew. It
  makes things incosistent and non-intuitive, esspecially for new users.
 
 
  I agree. For RTL languages, it makes a lot of sense to change the current
  language together with the system. Advanced users wishing to change the
  language independently should be able to disable this feature though.
 
  Now, you have to find someone willing to implement this feature ;-)
 
  FYI, a year or two ago I advocated that the text direction should be based
  uniquely on the encoding, independently of the language settings, like Qt
  does. But I failed to convince other developers.
 
  Dov, are you reading this? ;-)
 
  Abdel.
 
 

Re: Why does lyx use it's own keyboard instead of the systems?

[Abdelrazak Younes]

Micha Feigin wrote:

Sorry, sent off list by mistake

On Mon, 9 Mar 2009 22:05:51 +0100
Jean-Marc Lasgouttes  wrote:

There are two issues. For running the dictionary you need to know  
the language.
For hebrew and arabic it's another issue, you need to know the  
system language
so that you know directionality. Hebrew is right to left. For  
hebrew characters
it may be easy to decide, for what about spaces and numbers? For  
these we need
to know the system keyboard language and not guess it from the  
character.


Under windows I know it's possible since for example word does it.  
Question is
whether this is possible to know under linux (I guess so since  
there are panel
applets that show the language). Which again comes down to the  
question whether

there is a technical issue why to work this way or not.
So you want to change language when the keyboard layout is changed at  
system level, right?
I never thought of these layouts as indicators of the actual  
language. If Qt gives us

this information, we should be able to do it.

JMarc



For every other program the system language is used for input (alt-shift in my
case). So for example when writing mail or using oowriter I change the system
language to change input. Lyx is the only exeption where I __have__ to keep the
system language for english and bind (f12 in this case) to language hebrew. It
makes things incosistent and non-intuitive, esspecially for new users.


I agree. For RTL languages, it makes a lot of sense to change the 
current language together with the system. Advanced users wishing to 
change the language independently should be able to disable this feature 
though.


Now, you have to find someone willing to implement this feature ;-)

FYI, a year or two ago I advocated that the text direction should be 
based uniquely on the encoding, independently of the language settings, 
like Qt does. But I failed to convince other developers.


Dov, are you reading this? ;-)

Abdel.

Re: Why does lyx use it's own keyboard instead of the systems?

[Ronen Abravanel]

Before you rush into this change - Consider the following usecase:
Switching to math - When I'm in math-mode, I always want my keyboard layout
to be English. While In windows, The current keyboard layout override the
global one (If you put the cursor in an Hebrew context, the language will
switch to Hebrew, If you put your cursor in English context - you'll write
in English).
When I'm writing document, I want the Ctrl+m will be the only thing I need
to do in order to start typing math. "Ctrl-m Alt-Shift" Is match to
expensive..

So - If LyX will use the native-system-keyboard-layout - It will have to be
able to change it depending the current context (Math\Regular) - And in
every OS.

On Tue, Mar 10, 2009 at 9:59 AM, Abdelrazak Younes  wrote:

> Micha Feigin wrote:
>
>> Sorry, sent off list by mistake
>>
>> On Mon, 9 Mar 2009 22:05:51 +0100
>> Jean-Marc Lasgouttes  wrote:
>>
>>  There are two issues. For running the dictionary you need to know  the
 language.
 For hebrew and arabic it's another issue, you need to know the  system
 language
 so that you know directionality. Hebrew is right to left. For  hebrew
 characters
 it may be easy to decide, for what about spaces and numbers? For  these
 we need
 to know the system keyboard language and not guess it from the
  character.

 Under windows I know it's possible since for example word does it.
  Question is
 whether this is possible to know under linux (I guess so since  there
 are panel
 applets that show the language). Which again comes down to the  question
 whether
 there is a technical issue why to work this way or not.

>>> So you want to change language when the keyboard layout is changed at
>>>  system level, right?
>>> I never thought of these layouts as indicators of the actual  language.
>>> If Qt gives us
>>> this information, we should be able to do it.
>>>
>>> JMarc
>>>
>>>
>> For every other program the system language is used for input (alt-shift
>> in my
>> case). So for example when writing mail or using oowriter I change the
>> system
>> language to change input. Lyx is the only exeption where I __have__ to
>> keep the
>> system language for english and bind (f12 in this case) to language
>> hebrew. It
>> makes things incosistent and non-intuitive, esspecially for new users.
>>
>
> I agree. For RTL languages, it makes a lot of sense to change the current
> language together with the system. Advanced users wishing to change the
> language independently should be able to disable this feature though.
>
> Now, you have to find someone willing to implement this feature ;-)
>
> FYI, a year or two ago I advocated that the text direction should be based
> uniquely on the encoding, independently of the language settings, like Qt
> does. But I failed to convince other developers.
>
> Dov, are you reading this? ;-)
>
> Abdel.
>
>

Re: Why does lyx use it's own keyboard instead of the systems?

[Pavel Sanda]

Micha Feigin wrote:
> system language for english and bind (f12 in this case) to language hebrew. It
> makes things incosistent and non-intuitive, esspecially for new users.

iirc one reason for the current way was to have crossplatform consistent 
behaviour.

pavel

Re: Why does lyx use it's own keyboard instead of the systems?

[Micha Feigin]

On Tue, 10 Mar 2009 11:44:46 +0200
Ronen Abravanel  wrote:

> Before you rush into this change - Consider the following usecase:
> Switching to math - When I'm in math-mode, I always want my keyboard layout
> to be English. While In windows, The current keyboard layout override the
> global one (If you put the cursor in an Hebrew context, the language will
> switch to Hebrew, If you put your cursor in English context - you'll write
> in English).
> When I'm writing document, I want the Ctrl+m will be the only thing I need
> to do in order to start typing math. "Ctrl-m Alt-Shift" Is match to
> expensive..
> 

good point, but you also have two input senarios in math.
1. Entering parameters (regular typing). AFAIK it should always be in english
because I don't think that latex can handle anything else
2. in text mode inside math mode, where you want to be able to type both
(although at the moment it requires explicitly entering the \R{} macro to get
hebrew in there

Does everyone agree on the first point and are you willing to manually change
in the second case or do you want some other behviour?

> So - If LyX will use the native-system-keyboard-layout - It will have to be
> able to change it depending the current context (Math\Regular) - And in
> every OS.
> 
> On Tue, Mar 10, 2009 at 9:59 AM, Abdelrazak Younes  wrote:
> 
> > Micha Feigin wrote:
> >
> >> Sorry, sent off list by mistake
> >>
> >> On Mon, 9 Mar 2009 22:05:51 +0100
> >> Jean-Marc Lasgouttes  wrote:
> >>
> >>  There are two issues. For running the dictionary you need to know  the
>  language.
>  For hebrew and arabic it's another issue, you need to know the  system
>  language
>  so that you know directionality. Hebrew is right to left. For  hebrew
>  characters
>  it may be easy to decide, for what about spaces and numbers? For  these
>  we need
>  to know the system keyboard language and not guess it from the
>   character.
> 
>  Under windows I know it's possible since for example word does it.
>   Question is
>  whether this is possible to know under linux (I guess so since  there
>  are panel
>  applets that show the language). Which again comes down to the  question
>  whether
>  there is a technical issue why to work this way or not.
> 
> >>> So you want to change language when the keyboard layout is changed at
> >>>  system level, right?
> >>> I never thought of these layouts as indicators of the actual  language.
> >>> If Qt gives us
> >>> this information, we should be able to do it.
> >>>
> >>> JMarc
> >>>
> >>>
> >> For every other program the system language is used for input (alt-shift
> >> in my
> >> case). So for example when writing mail or using oowriter I change the
> >> system
> >> language to change input. Lyx is the only exeption where I __have__ to
> >> keep the
> >> system language for english and bind (f12 in this case) to language
> >> hebrew. It
> >> makes things incosistent and non-intuitive, esspecially for new users.
> >>
> >
> > I agree. For RTL languages, it makes a lot of sense to change the current
> > language together with the system. Advanced users wishing to change the
> > language independently should be able to disable this feature though.
> >
> > Now, you have to find someone willing to implement this feature ;-)
> >
> > FYI, a year or two ago I advocated that the text direction should be based
> > uniquely on the encoding, independently of the language settings, like Qt
> > does. But I failed to convince other developers.
> >
> > Dov, are you reading this? ;-)
> >
> > Abdel.
> >
> >

Re: Why does lyx use it's own keyboard instead of the systems?

[Guenter Milde]

On 2009-03-07, Micha Feigin wrote:

 ... I was wondering why lyx uses it's own keyboard switching,
 especially for hebrew. Is it a technological issue or just that no one
 had the time/interest to implement this yet?

* LyX does not necessariyl use its own keyboard switching but provides
  this as an alternative.
  
* One LyX developer preferred to keep the rest of his system in English
  when writing Hebrew in LyX. This is why he insisted on keeping the
  parallel feature.

 Is it even possible to know what language is chosen on all the systems
 lyx is implemented on 

LyX recognizes the locale setting and uses it to speak to you in
native tongue (if possible) -- my LyX speaks German.

It would also be possible to use this to set the document language for
new documents. However:

 or does the language need to be guessed based on each character?

it is not possible (in general) to determine the language from a
character: If LyX sees an 'ü', should this be German, Hungarian, or
Turkish. And how about Häagen Dasz or TεX? No language switch needed.

(The case is somewhat simplified with Greek or Hebrew characters, but
even then you dont know whether it is Hebrew, New-Hebrew or Yiddish.)

But the problematic cases were ASCII chars in a Greek or Heberew
document: the choice of alternative language is just too big to give a
sensible guess.

Günter

Re: Why does lyx use it's own keyboard instead of the systems?

[Micha Feigin]

On Mon, 9 Mar 2009 07:53:12 + (UTC)
Guenter Milde mi...@users.berlios.de wrote:

 On 2009-03-07, Micha Feigin wrote:
 
  ... I was wondering why lyx uses it's own keyboard switching,
  especially for hebrew. Is it a technological issue or just that no one
  had the time/interest to implement this yet?
 
 * LyX does not necessariyl use its own keyboard switching but provides
   this as an alternative.
   
 * One LyX developer preferred to keep the rest of his system in English
   when writing Hebrew in LyX. This is why he insisted on keeping the
   parallel feature.
 
  Is it even possible to know what language is chosen on all the systems
  lyx is implemented on 
 
 LyX recognizes the locale setting and uses it to speak to you in
 native tongue (if possible) -- my LyX speaks German.
 

I don't care what language it speaks, that is trivial, it's a question of
changing the writing language inside the paragraph or between paragraphs.

 It would also be possible to use this to set the document language for
 new documents. However:
 
  or does the language need to be guessed based on each character?
 
 it is not possible (in general) to determine the language from a
 character: If LyX sees an 'ü', should this be German, Hungarian, or
 Turkish. And how about Häagen Dasz or TεX? No language switch needed.
 
 (The case is somewhat simplified with Greek or Hebrew characters, but
 even then you dont know whether it is Hebrew, New-Hebrew or Yiddish.)
 

There are two issues. For running the dictionary you need to know the language.
For hebrew and arabic it's another issue, you need to know the system language
so that you know directionality. Hebrew is right to left. For hebrew characters
it may be easy to decide, for what about spaces and numbers? For these we need
to know the system keyboard language and not guess it from the character.

Under windows I know it's possible since for example word does it. Question is
whether this is possible to know under linux (I guess so since there are panel
applets that show the language). Which again comes down to the question whether
there is a technical issue why to work this way or not.

 But the problematic cases were ASCII chars in a Greek or Heberew
 document: the choice of alternative language is just too big to give a
 sensible guess.
 

there is another question here, what about the correct encoding ...

 Günter
 
 

Re: Why does lyx use it's own keyboard instead of the systems?

[Guenter Milde]

On 2009-03-09, Micha Feigin wrote:
 On Mon, 9 Mar 2009 07:53:12 + (UTC)
 Guenter Milde mi...@users.berlios.de wrote:

 On 2009-03-07, Micha Feigin wrote:

...
 it's a question of changing the writing language inside the paragraph
 or between paragraphs.

 There are two issues. For running the dictionary you need to know the
 language.

you need to know the language also for 

* hyphenation (not hebrew, but most other languages),
*  auto-inserted text (like chapter, table of contents,
  figure, ...),
* for selecting the font encoding (e.g. LGR for Greek letters vs. T1
  for Latin letters).

 For hebrew and arabic it's another issue, you need to know
 the system language so that you know directionality. 

LyX saves a RTL flag for every configured language in LYXDIR/languages.

Now, it should compare this to the directionality of the system
language (where this refers to the currently used keyboard setting,
not the locale) and only switch direction if this is not already done
by the system (QT?).

 Under windows I know it's possible since for example word does it.
 Question is whether this is possible to know under linux (I guess so
 since there are panel applets that show the language). Which again
 comes down to the question whether there is a technical issue why to
 work this way or not.

Browsing the lyx wiki, I found one more tip:

It is possible to switch the directionality of the text in the LyX editor
window by (de)activating the option right-to-left language support in
the ToolsPreferencesLanguage menu.

If this does not help, try to describe concise and precisely what you
do, what you expect and what you get and file this as a bug report on
bugzilla.

Günter

Re: Why does lyx use it's own keyboard instead of the systems?

[Jean-Marc Lasgouttes]

There are two issues. For running the dictionary you need to know  
the language.
For hebrew and arabic it's another issue, you need to know the  
system language
so that you know directionality. Hebrew is right to left. For  
hebrew characters
it may be easy to decide, for what about spaces and numbers? For  
these we need
to know the system keyboard language and not guess it from the  
character.


Under windows I know it's possible since for example word does it.  
Question is
whether this is possible to know under linux (I guess so since  
there are panel
applets that show the language). Which again comes down to the  
question whether

there is a technical issue why to work this way or not.


So you want to change language when the keyboard layout is changed at  
system level, right?
I never thought of these layouts as indicators of the actual  
language. If Qt gives us

this information, we should be able to do it.

JMarc

Re: Why does lyx use it's own keyboard instead of the systems?

[Micha Feigin]

Sorry, sent off list by mistake

On Mon, 9 Mar 2009 22:05:51 +0100
Jean-Marc Lasgouttes lasgout...@lyx.org wrote:

  There are two issues. For running the dictionary you need to know  
  the language.
  For hebrew and arabic it's another issue, you need to know the  
  system language
  so that you know directionality. Hebrew is right to left. For  
  hebrew characters
  it may be easy to decide, for what about spaces and numbers? For  
  these we need
  to know the system keyboard language and not guess it from the  
  character.
 
  Under windows I know it's possible since for example word does it.  
  Question is
  whether this is possible to know under linux (I guess so since  
  there are panel
  applets that show the language). Which again comes down to the  
  question whether
  there is a technical issue why to work this way or not.
 
 So you want to change language when the keyboard layout is changed at  
 system level, right?
 I never thought of these layouts as indicators of the actual  
 language. If Qt gives us
 this information, we should be able to do it.
 
 JMarc
 

For every other program the system language is used for input (alt-shift in my
case). So for example when writing mail or using oowriter I change the system
language to change input. Lyx is the only exeption where I __have__ to keep the
system language for english and bind (f12 in this case) to language hebrew. It
makes things incosistent and non-intuitive, esspecially for new users.

Re: Why does lyx use it's own keyboard instead of the systems?

[Guenter Milde]

On 2009-03-07, Micha Feigin wrote:

 ... I was wondering why lyx uses it's own keyboard switching,
 especially for hebrew. Is it a technological issue or just that no one
 had the time/interest to implement this yet?

* LyX does not necessariyl use its own keyboard switching but provides
  this as an alternative.
  
* One LyX developer preferred to keep the rest of his system in English
  when writing Hebrew in LyX. This is why he insisted on keeping the
  parallel feature.

 Is it even possible to know what language is chosen on all the systems
 lyx is implemented on 

LyX recognizes the locale setting and uses it to speak to you in
native tongue (if possible) -- my LyX speaks German.

It would also be possible to use this to set the document language for
new documents. However:

 or does the language need to be guessed based on each character?

it is not possible (in general) to determine the language from a
character: If LyX sees an 'ü', should this be German, Hungarian, or
Turkish. And how about Häagen Dasz or TεX? No language switch needed.

(The case is somewhat simplified with Greek or Hebrew characters, but
even then you dont know whether it is Hebrew, New-Hebrew or Yiddish.)

But the problematic cases were ASCII chars in a Greek or Heberew
document: the choice of alternative language is just too big to give a
sensible guess.

Günter

Re: Why does lyx use it's own keyboard instead of the systems?

[Micha Feigin]

On Mon, 9 Mar 2009 07:53:12 + (UTC)
Guenter Milde mi...@users.berlios.de wrote:

 On 2009-03-07, Micha Feigin wrote:
 
  ... I was wondering why lyx uses it's own keyboard switching,
  especially for hebrew. Is it a technological issue or just that no one
  had the time/interest to implement this yet?
 
 * LyX does not necessariyl use its own keyboard switching but provides
   this as an alternative.
   
 * One LyX developer preferred to keep the rest of his system in English
   when writing Hebrew in LyX. This is why he insisted on keeping the
   parallel feature.
 
  Is it even possible to know what language is chosen on all the systems
  lyx is implemented on 
 
 LyX recognizes the locale setting and uses it to speak to you in
 native tongue (if possible) -- my LyX speaks German.
 

I don't care what language it speaks, that is trivial, it's a question of
changing the writing language inside the paragraph or between paragraphs.

 It would also be possible to use this to set the document language for
 new documents. However:
 
  or does the language need to be guessed based on each character?
 
 it is not possible (in general) to determine the language from a
 character: If LyX sees an 'ü', should this be German, Hungarian, or
 Turkish. And how about Häagen Dasz or TεX? No language switch needed.
 
 (The case is somewhat simplified with Greek or Hebrew characters, but
 even then you dont know whether it is Hebrew, New-Hebrew or Yiddish.)
 

There are two issues. For running the dictionary you need to know the language.
For hebrew and arabic it's another issue, you need to know the system language
so that you know directionality. Hebrew is right to left. For hebrew characters
it may be easy to decide, for what about spaces and numbers? For these we need
to know the system keyboard language and not guess it from the character.

Under windows I know it's possible since for example word does it. Question is
whether this is possible to know under linux (I guess so since there are panel
applets that show the language). Which again comes down to the question whether
there is a technical issue why to work this way or not.

 But the problematic cases were ASCII chars in a Greek or Heberew
 document: the choice of alternative language is just too big to give a
 sensible guess.
 

there is another question here, what about the correct encoding ...

 Günter
 
 

Re: Why does lyx use it's own keyboard instead of the systems?

[Guenter Milde]

On 2009-03-09, Micha Feigin wrote:
 On Mon, 9 Mar 2009 07:53:12 + (UTC)
 Guenter Milde mi...@users.berlios.de wrote:

 On 2009-03-07, Micha Feigin wrote:

...
 it's a question of changing the writing language inside the paragraph
 or between paragraphs.

 There are two issues. For running the dictionary you need to know the
 language.

you need to know the language also for 

* hyphenation (not hebrew, but most other languages),
*  auto-inserted text (like chapter, table of contents,
  figure, ...),
* for selecting the font encoding (e.g. LGR for Greek letters vs. T1
  for Latin letters).

 For hebrew and arabic it's another issue, you need to know
 the system language so that you know directionality. 

LyX saves a RTL flag for every configured language in LYXDIR/languages.

Now, it should compare this to the directionality of the system
language (where this refers to the currently used keyboard setting,
not the locale) and only switch direction if this is not already done
by the system (QT?).

 Under windows I know it's possible since for example word does it.
 Question is whether this is possible to know under linux (I guess so
 since there are panel applets that show the language). Which again
 comes down to the question whether there is a technical issue why to
 work this way or not.

Browsing the lyx wiki, I found one more tip:

It is possible to switch the directionality of the text in the LyX editor
window by (de)activating the option right-to-left language support in
the ToolsPreferencesLanguage menu.

If this does not help, try to describe concise and precisely what you
do, what you expect and what you get and file this as a bug report on
bugzilla.

Günter

Re: Why does lyx use it's own keyboard instead of the systems?

[Jean-Marc Lasgouttes]

There are two issues. For running the dictionary you need to know  
the language.
For hebrew and arabic it's another issue, you need to know the  
system language
so that you know directionality. Hebrew is right to left. For  
hebrew characters
it may be easy to decide, for what about spaces and numbers? For  
these we need
to know the system keyboard language and not guess it from the  
character.


Under windows I know it's possible since for example word does it.  
Question is
whether this is possible to know under linux (I guess so since  
there are panel
applets that show the language). Which again comes down to the  
question whether

there is a technical issue why to work this way or not.


So you want to change language when the keyboard layout is changed at  
system level, right?
I never thought of these layouts as indicators of the actual  
language. If Qt gives us

this information, we should be able to do it.

JMarc

Re: Why does lyx use it's own keyboard instead of the systems?

[Micha Feigin]

Sorry, sent off list by mistake

On Mon, 9 Mar 2009 22:05:51 +0100
Jean-Marc Lasgouttes lasgout...@lyx.org wrote:

  There are two issues. For running the dictionary you need to know  
  the language.
  For hebrew and arabic it's another issue, you need to know the  
  system language
  so that you know directionality. Hebrew is right to left. For  
  hebrew characters
  it may be easy to decide, for what about spaces and numbers? For  
  these we need
  to know the system keyboard language and not guess it from the  
  character.
 
  Under windows I know it's possible since for example word does it.  
  Question is
  whether this is possible to know under linux (I guess so since  
  there are panel
  applets that show the language). Which again comes down to the  
  question whether
  there is a technical issue why to work this way or not.
 
 So you want to change language when the keyboard layout is changed at  
 system level, right?
 I never thought of these layouts as indicators of the actual  
 language. If Qt gives us
 this information, we should be able to do it.
 
 JMarc
 

For every other program the system language is used for input (alt-shift in my
case). So for example when writing mail or using oowriter I change the system
language to change input. Lyx is the only exeption where I __have__ to keep the
system language for english and bind (f12 in this case) to language hebrew. It
makes things incosistent and non-intuitive, esspecially for new users.

Re: Why does lyx use it's own keyboard instead of the systems?

[Guenter Milde]

On 2009-03-07, Micha Feigin wrote:

> ... I was wondering why lyx uses it's own keyboard switching,
> especially for hebrew. Is it a technological issue or just that no one
> had the time/interest to implement this yet?

* LyX does not necessariyl use its own keyboard switching but provides
  this as an alternative.
  
* One LyX developer preferred to keep the rest of his system in English
  when writing Hebrew in LyX. This is why he insisted on keeping the
  parallel feature.

> Is it even possible to know what language is chosen on all the systems
> lyx is implemented on 

LyX recognizes the "locale" setting and uses it to "speak to you" in
native tongue (if possible) -- my LyX speaks German.

It would also be possible to use this to set the document language for
new documents. However:

> or does the language need to be guessed based on each character?

it is not possible (in general) to determine the language from a
character: If LyX sees an 'ü', should this be German, Hungarian, or
Turkish. And how about "Häagen Dasz" or "TεX"? No language switch needed.

(The case is somewhat simplified with Greek or Hebrew characters, but
even then you dont know whether it is Hebrew, New-Hebrew or Yiddish.)

But the problematic cases were ASCII chars in a Greek or Heberew
document: the choice of alternative language is just too big to give a
sensible guess.

Günter

Re: Why does lyx use it's own keyboard instead of the systems?

[Micha Feigin]

On Mon, 9 Mar 2009 07:53:12 + (UTC)
Guenter Milde  wrote:

> On 2009-03-07, Micha Feigin wrote:
> 
> > ... I was wondering why lyx uses it's own keyboard switching,
> > especially for hebrew. Is it a technological issue or just that no one
> > had the time/interest to implement this yet?
> 
> * LyX does not necessariyl use its own keyboard switching but provides
>   this as an alternative.
>   
> * One LyX developer preferred to keep the rest of his system in English
>   when writing Hebrew in LyX. This is why he insisted on keeping the
>   parallel feature.
> 
> > Is it even possible to know what language is chosen on all the systems
> > lyx is implemented on 
> 
> LyX recognizes the "locale" setting and uses it to "speak to you" in
> native tongue (if possible) -- my LyX speaks German.
> 

I don't care what language it speaks, that is trivial, it's a question of
changing the writing language inside the paragraph or between paragraphs.

> It would also be possible to use this to set the document language for
> new documents. However:
> 
> > or does the language need to be guessed based on each character?
> 
> it is not possible (in general) to determine the language from a
> character: If LyX sees an 'ü', should this be German, Hungarian, or
> Turkish. And how about "Häagen Dasz" or "TεX"? No language switch needed.
> 
> (The case is somewhat simplified with Greek or Hebrew characters, but
> even then you dont know whether it is Hebrew, New-Hebrew or Yiddish.)
> 

There are two issues. For running the dictionary you need to know the language.
For hebrew and arabic it's another issue, you need to know the system language
so that you know directionality. Hebrew is right to left. For hebrew characters
it may be easy to decide, for what about spaces and numbers? For these we need
to know the system keyboard language and not guess it from the character.

Under windows I know it's possible since for example word does it. Question is
whether this is possible to know under linux (I guess so since there are panel
applets that show the language). Which again comes down to the question whether
there is a technical issue why to work this way or not.

> But the problematic cases were ASCII chars in a Greek or Heberew
> document: the choice of alternative language is just too big to give a
> sensible guess.
> 

there is another question here, what about the correct encoding ...

> Günter
> 
> 

Re: Why does lyx use it's own keyboard instead of the systems?

[Guenter Milde]

On 2009-03-09, Micha Feigin wrote:
> On Mon, 9 Mar 2009 07:53:12 + (UTC)
> Guenter Milde  wrote:

>> On 2009-03-07, Micha Feigin wrote:

...
> it's a question of changing the writing language inside the paragraph
> or between paragraphs.

> There are two issues. For running the dictionary you need to know the
> language.

you need to know the language also for 

* hyphenation (not hebrew, but most other languages),
*  auto-inserted text (like "chapter", "table of contents",
  "figure", ...),
* for selecting the font encoding (e.g. LGR for Greek letters vs. T1
  for Latin letters).

> For hebrew and arabic it's another issue, you need to know
> the system language so that you know directionality. 

LyX saves a RTL flag for every configured language in LYXDIR/languages.

Now, it should compare this to the directionality of the "system
language" (where this refers to the currently used keyboard setting,
not the locale) and only switch direction if this is not already done
by the system (QT?).

> Under windows I know it's possible since for example word does it.
> Question is whether this is possible to know under linux (I guess so
> since there are panel applets that show the language). Which again
> comes down to the question whether there is a technical issue why to
> work this way or not.

Browsing the lyx wiki, I found one more tip:

It is possible to switch the directionality of the text in the LyX editor
window by (de)activating the option "right-to-left language support" in
the Tools>Preferences>Language menu.

If this does not help, try to describe concise and precisely what you
do, what you expect and what you get and file this as a bug report on
bugzilla.

Günter

Re: Why does lyx use it's own keyboard instead of the systems?

[Jean-Marc Lasgouttes]

There are two issues. For running the dictionary you need to know  
the language.
For hebrew and arabic it's another issue, you need to know the  
system language
so that you know directionality. Hebrew is right to left. For  
hebrew characters
it may be easy to decide, for what about spaces and numbers? For  
these we need
to know the system keyboard language and not guess it from the  
character.


Under windows I know it's possible since for example word does it.  
Question is
whether this is possible to know under linux (I guess so since  
there are panel
applets that show the language). Which again comes down to the  
question whether

there is a technical issue why to work this way or not.


So you want to change language when the keyboard layout is changed at  
system level, right?
I never thought of these layouts as indicators of the actual  
language. If Qt gives us

this information, we should be able to do it.

JMarc

Re: Why does lyx use it's own keyboard instead of the systems?

[Micha Feigin]

Sorry, sent off list by mistake

On Mon, 9 Mar 2009 22:05:51 +0100
Jean-Marc Lasgouttes  wrote:

> > There are two issues. For running the dictionary you need to know  
> > the language.
> > For hebrew and arabic it's another issue, you need to know the  
> > system language
> > so that you know directionality. Hebrew is right to left. For  
> > hebrew characters
> > it may be easy to decide, for what about spaces and numbers? For  
> > these we need
> > to know the system keyboard language and not guess it from the  
> > character.
> >
> > Under windows I know it's possible since for example word does it.  
> > Question is
> > whether this is possible to know under linux (I guess so since  
> > there are panel
> > applets that show the language). Which again comes down to the  
> > question whether
> > there is a technical issue why to work this way or not.
> 
> So you want to change language when the keyboard layout is changed at  
> system level, right?
> I never thought of these layouts as indicators of the actual  
> language. If Qt gives us
> this information, we should be able to do it.
> 
> JMarc
> 

For every other program the system language is used for input (alt-shift in my
case). So for example when writing mail or using oowriter I change the system
language to change input. Lyx is the only exeption where I __have__ to keep the
system language for english and bind (f12 in this case) to language hebrew. It
makes things incosistent and non-intuitive, esspecially for new users.

Why does lyx use it's own keyboard instead of the systems?

[Micha Feigin]

I recall some talk about this a long time ago and couldn't find it. As there
was some talk about this on another mailing list I was wondering why lyx uses
it's own keyboard switching, esspecially for hebrew. Is it a technological
issue or just that no one had the time/interest to implement this yet?

Is it even possible to know what language is chosen on all the systems lyx is
implemented on or does the language need to be guessed based on each character?

Thanks

Why does lyx use it's own keyboard instead of the systems?

[Micha Feigin]

I recall some talk about this a long time ago and couldn't find it. As there
was some talk about this on another mailing list I was wondering why lyx uses
it's own keyboard switching, esspecially for hebrew. Is it a technological
issue or just that no one had the time/interest to implement this yet?

Is it even possible to know what language is chosen on all the systems lyx is
implemented on or does the language need to be guessed based on each character?

Thanks

Why does lyx use it's own keyboard instead of the systems?

[Micha Feigin]

I recall some talk about this a long time ago and couldn't find it. As there
was some talk about this on another mailing list I was wondering why lyx uses
it's own keyboard switching, esspecially for hebrew. Is it a technological
issue or just that no one had the time/interest to implement this yet?

Is it even possible to know what language is chosen on all the systems lyx is
implemented on or does the language need to be guessed based on each character?

Thanks