Re: [Fwd: Re: Word processor bashing]
They are a pain though with word as it's very difficult to find where styles are not applied or are modified and it can go crazy over small modifications. The only sane way I found to work with styles in word is in outline mode, which is much closer to latex in approach. Outline mode is that mode which OpenOffice does not have. And that is huge limitation for me personally. Second advantage of Word XP or 2003 is that, it adds every manual modification to the text format to the list of styles and in proper mode, you can find all of non-standard formatting and standardize them - but this is huge work of course. LyX creates environment for content creativity, leaving formatting job as second task done by packages of manual tweaking of LaTeX code - as a programmer and big passionate of DTP I accept this approach as much better than using word processor. Disadvantage of classic DTP software (Scribus, Ventura, InDesign, PageMaker, QuarkXPress) is that you need to have almost completed text to flow it on pages and every change is often a challenge, but visual effects could be really great. LaTeX is a balance between nice look and possibility of quick content change, LyX simplifies the job. -- Manveru jabber: [EMAIL PROTECTED] gg: 1624001 http://www.manveru.pl
Re: [Fwd: Re: Word processor bashing]
--- On Thu, 11/6/08, Manveru [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Manveru [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: Word processor bashing] To: Micha [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: LyX User lyx-users@lists.lyx.org Received: Thursday, November 6, 2008, 5:35 AM They are a pain though with word as it's very difficult to find where styles are not applied or are modified and it can go crazy over small modifications. The only sane way I found to work with styles in word is in outline mode, which is much closer to latex in approach. Outline mode is that mode which OpenOffice does not have. Navigator? Not the same of course but I've actually come to prefer if for some work. __ Ask a question on any topic and get answers from real people. Go to Yahoo! Answers and share what you know at http://ca.answers.yahoo.com
Re: [Fwd: Re: Word processor bashing]
Micha wrote: Writing a letter in lyx is a pain. Eh? I think I've only ever once written a letter in LyX - because I very rarely write letters on the computer - but it was trivial. I just created a new document using the Koma-script letter v2 template and filled in the blanks. The most time-consuming part was scanning my signature so I could have a handwritten signature stamp in the generated PDF. I can't see why writing a letter in Word would be any easier. (As I recall, the last time I did so, it was more work, because I didn't care for any of Word's letter templates, and the default styles weren't quite right for a business letter.) I know some regulars on the list (notably Steve Litt) have advocated Word for short documents. That's fine if it works for them. But I don't see it, myself. But then I've been using markup languages for short documents for a couple of decades (and word processors for only slightly longer), so perhaps I'm simply used to doing so. -- Michael Wojcik Micro Focus Rhetoric Writing, Michigan State University
Re: [Fwd: Re: Word processor bashing]
Micha wrote: Writing a letter in lyx is a pain. Eh? I think I've only ever once written a letter in LyX - because I very rarely write letters on the computer - but it was trivial. I just created a new document using the Koma-script letter v2 template and filled in the blanks. ...except that the defaults for the Koma Letter class are annoying / don't match what the real world does. Fold marks? I've NEVER seen them on ANY letter anyone has ever mailed me, formal or not. Then there's the backaddress, which nobody on the planet save whoever wrote Koma-letter has ever heard of. I also find that the general default margins in LaTeX (or is LyX setting 'em?) obscenely large on US-Letter paper. I agree that in general, formatting a letter in LyX makes for an extremely professional looking document and it is a pretty quick trip to close, but I usually end up spending another 10-15 minutes going through and tweaking various parameters in the preamble and re-previewing the PDF until I'm happy. I consider the time worth it, but I still mutter under my breath about it. :) Brett
Re: [Fwd: Re: Word processor bashing]
Brett Dikeman [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: Micha wrote: Writing a letter in lyx is a pain. Eh? I think I've only ever once written a letter in LyX - because I very rarely write letters on the computer - but it was trivial. I just created a new document using the Koma-script letter v2 template and filled in the blanks. The same hold for the Letter (dinbrief) which I regularely use for my personal official correspondence (tax office, landlord, school, Bezügestelle, ...). ...except that the defaults for the Koma Letter class are annoying / don't match what the real world does. Maybe you live in a different world? Fold marks? I've NEVER seen them on ANY letter anyone has ever mailed me, formal or not. I find the fold marks very convenient when I fold the letter to put it in a standard window envelope. Half of the official post I get have them. Then there's the backaddress, which nobody on the planet save whoever wrote Koma-letter has ever heard of. Backadress is a useful feature with windowed envelopes. Its a standard here. Günter
Re: [Fwd: Re: Word processor bashing]
They are a pain though with word as it's very difficult to find where styles are not applied or are modified and it can go crazy over small modifications. The only sane way I found to work with styles in word is in outline mode, which is much closer to latex in approach. Outline mode is that mode which OpenOffice does not have. And that is huge limitation for me personally. Second advantage of Word XP or 2003 is that, it adds every manual modification to the text format to the list of styles and in proper mode, you can find all of non-standard formatting and standardize them - but this is huge work of course. LyX creates environment for content creativity, leaving formatting job as second task done by packages of manual tweaking of LaTeX code - as a programmer and big passionate of DTP I accept this approach as much better than using word processor. Disadvantage of classic DTP software (Scribus, Ventura, InDesign, PageMaker, QuarkXPress) is that you need to have almost completed text to flow it on pages and every change is often a challenge, but visual effects could be really great. LaTeX is a balance between nice look and possibility of quick content change, LyX simplifies the job. -- Manveru jabber: [EMAIL PROTECTED] gg: 1624001 http://www.manveru.pl
Re: [Fwd: Re: Word processor bashing]
--- On Thu, 11/6/08, Manveru [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Manveru [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: Word processor bashing] To: Micha [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: LyX User lyx-users@lists.lyx.org Received: Thursday, November 6, 2008, 5:35 AM They are a pain though with word as it's very difficult to find where styles are not applied or are modified and it can go crazy over small modifications. The only sane way I found to work with styles in word is in outline mode, which is much closer to latex in approach. Outline mode is that mode which OpenOffice does not have. Navigator? Not the same of course but I've actually come to prefer if for some work. __ Ask a question on any topic and get answers from real people. Go to Yahoo! Answers and share what you know at http://ca.answers.yahoo.com
Re: [Fwd: Re: Word processor bashing]
Micha wrote: Writing a letter in lyx is a pain. Eh? I think I've only ever once written a letter in LyX - because I very rarely write letters on the computer - but it was trivial. I just created a new document using the Koma-script letter v2 template and filled in the blanks. The most time-consuming part was scanning my signature so I could have a handwritten signature stamp in the generated PDF. I can't see why writing a letter in Word would be any easier. (As I recall, the last time I did so, it was more work, because I didn't care for any of Word's letter templates, and the default styles weren't quite right for a business letter.) I know some regulars on the list (notably Steve Litt) have advocated Word for short documents. That's fine if it works for them. But I don't see it, myself. But then I've been using markup languages for short documents for a couple of decades (and word processors for only slightly longer), so perhaps I'm simply used to doing so. -- Michael Wojcik Micro Focus Rhetoric Writing, Michigan State University
Re: [Fwd: Re: Word processor bashing]
Micha wrote: Writing a letter in lyx is a pain. Eh? I think I've only ever once written a letter in LyX - because I very rarely write letters on the computer - but it was trivial. I just created a new document using the Koma-script letter v2 template and filled in the blanks. ...except that the defaults for the Koma Letter class are annoying / don't match what the real world does. Fold marks? I've NEVER seen them on ANY letter anyone has ever mailed me, formal or not. Then there's the backaddress, which nobody on the planet save whoever wrote Koma-letter has ever heard of. I also find that the general default margins in LaTeX (or is LyX setting 'em?) obscenely large on US-Letter paper. I agree that in general, formatting a letter in LyX makes for an extremely professional looking document and it is a pretty quick trip to close, but I usually end up spending another 10-15 minutes going through and tweaking various parameters in the preamble and re-previewing the PDF until I'm happy. I consider the time worth it, but I still mutter under my breath about it. :) Brett
Re: [Fwd: Re: Word processor bashing]
Brett Dikeman [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: Micha wrote: Writing a letter in lyx is a pain. Eh? I think I've only ever once written a letter in LyX - because I very rarely write letters on the computer - but it was trivial. I just created a new document using the Koma-script letter v2 template and filled in the blanks. The same hold for the Letter (dinbrief) which I regularely use for my personal official correspondence (tax office, landlord, school, Bezügestelle, ...). ...except that the defaults for the Koma Letter class are annoying / don't match what the real world does. Maybe you live in a different world? Fold marks? I've NEVER seen them on ANY letter anyone has ever mailed me, formal or not. I find the fold marks very convenient when I fold the letter to put it in a standard window envelope. Half of the official post I get have them. Then there's the backaddress, which nobody on the planet save whoever wrote Koma-letter has ever heard of. Backadress is a useful feature with windowed envelopes. Its a standard here. Günter
Re: [Fwd: Re: Word processor bashing]
> They are a pain though with word as it's very difficult to find where styles > are not applied or are modified and it can go crazy over small modifications. > The only sane way I found to work with styles in word is in outline mode, > which > is much closer to latex in approach. Outline mode is that mode which OpenOffice does not have. And that is huge limitation for me personally. Second advantage of Word XP or 2003 is that, it adds every manual modification to the text format to the list of styles and in proper mode, you can find all of non-standard formatting and standardize them - but this is huge work of course. LyX creates environment for content creativity, leaving formatting job as second task done by packages of manual tweaking of LaTeX code - as a programmer and big passionate of DTP I accept this approach as much better than using word processor. Disadvantage of classic DTP software (Scribus, Ventura, InDesign, PageMaker, QuarkXPress) is that you need to have almost completed text to flow it on pages and every change is often a challenge, but visual effects could be really great. LaTeX is a balance between nice look and possibility of quick content change, LyX simplifies the job. -- Manveru jabber: [EMAIL PROTECTED] gg: 1624001 http://www.manveru.pl
Re: [Fwd: Re: Word processor bashing]
--- On Thu, 11/6/08, Manveru <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > From: Manveru <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: Word processor bashing] > To: "Micha" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Cc: "LyX User" <lyx-users@lists.lyx.org> > Received: Thursday, November 6, 2008, 5:35 AM > > They are a pain though with word as it's very > difficult to find where styles > > are not applied or are modified and it can go crazy > over small modifications. > > The only sane way I found to work with styles in word > is in outline mode, which > > is much closer to latex in approach. > > Outline mode is that mode which OpenOffice does not have. Navigator? Not the same of course but I've actually come to prefer if for some work. __ Ask a question on any topic and get answers from real people. Go to Yahoo! Answers and share what you know at http://ca.answers.yahoo.com
Re: [Fwd: Re: Word processor bashing]
Micha wrote: > > Writing a letter in lyx is a pain. Eh? I think I've only ever once written a letter in LyX - because I very rarely write letters on the computer - but it was trivial. I just created a new document using the Koma-script letter v2 template and filled in the blanks. The most time-consuming part was scanning my signature so I could have a handwritten signature "stamp" in the generated PDF. I can't see why writing a letter in Word would be any easier. (As I recall, the last time I did so, it was more work, because I didn't care for any of Word's letter templates, and the default styles weren't quite right for a business letter.) I know some regulars on the list (notably Steve Litt) have advocated Word for short documents. That's fine if it works for them. But I don't see it, myself. But then I've been using markup languages for short documents for a couple of decades (and word processors for only slightly longer), so perhaps I'm simply used to doing so. -- Michael Wojcik Micro Focus Rhetoric & Writing, Michigan State University
Re: [Fwd: Re: Word processor bashing]
> Micha wrote: >> >> Writing a letter in lyx is a pain. > > Eh? I think I've only ever once written a letter in LyX - because I > very rarely write letters on the computer - but it was trivial. I just > created a new document using the Koma-script letter v2 template and > filled in the blanks. ...except that the defaults for the Koma Letter class are annoying / don't match "what the real world does". Fold marks? I've NEVER seen them on ANY letter anyone has ever mailed me, formal or not. Then there's the "backaddress", which nobody on the planet save whoever wrote Koma-letter has ever heard of. I also find that the general default margins in LaTeX (or is LyX setting 'em?) obscenely large on US-Letter paper. I agree that in general, formatting a letter in LyX makes for an extremely professional looking document and it is a pretty quick trip to "close", but I usually end up spending another 10-15 minutes going through and tweaking various parameters in the preamble and re-previewing the PDF until I'm happy. I consider the time worth it, but I still mutter under my breath about it. :) Brett
Re: [Fwd: Re: Word processor bashing]
Brett Dikeman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb: >> Micha wrote: >>> Writing a letter in lyx is a pain. >> Eh? I think I've only ever once written a letter in LyX - because I >> very rarely write letters on the computer - but it was trivial. I just >> created a new document using the Koma-script letter v2 template and >> filled in the blanks. The same hold for the Letter (dinbrief) which I regularely use for my personal "official" correspondence (tax office, landlord, school, Bezügestelle, ...). > ...except that the defaults for the Koma Letter class are annoying / don't > match "what the real world does". Maybe you live in a different world? > Fold marks? I've NEVER seen them on > ANY letter anyone has ever mailed me, formal or not. I find the fold marks very convenient when I fold the letter to put it in a standard window envelope. Half of the official post I get have them. > Then there's the "backaddress", which nobody on the planet save whoever > wrote Koma-letter has ever heard of. Backadress is a useful feature with "windowed" envelopes. Its a standard here. Günter
Re: [Fwd: Re: Word processor bashing]
On Tuesday 04 November 2008 07:19:32 pm rgheck wrote: Since Uwe moved this to users, I'll forward my comments here as well. Original Message Subject: Re: Word processor bashing Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2008 17:06:13 -0500 From: RGH [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Patrick Camilleri [EMAIL PROTECTED] CC: [EMAIL PROTECTED] References: [EMAIL PROTECTED]@ovgu.de Patrick Camilleri wrote: Dear Sir, Though I find LaTeX + LyX to be a very good typesetting system, I dont understand all this bashing at other word processors in your Introduction to LyX document. In my opinion if one took at least ŧ the amount of time one needed to learn LaTeX, one would find out that modern Word Processors are indeed very capable tools. Styles have been supported, at least in Word, since quite some time and not just in most recent versions as quoted in the footnote on page 2. I already remember using Styles in Word 97 and frankly I cant imagine anybody writing anything longer than 4 pages without having any concept of Styles. You would go crazy! I'd have to go back and look at the Intro to see precisely what it says, so I won't defend it (yet). But I will take exception to this last claim. I know a lot of people who use Word, etc, and I don't know a single person who regularly uses styles. You know him now :-) Hi Richard, By 1988 I used paragraph and character styles for almost every kind of appearance, in my mainmatter, in WordPerfect 5.0. After switching to MS Word in 1994, I used paragraph and character styles, in my mainmatter, for almost every kind of appearance. After switching to LyX in 2001 I tried my best to use paragraph and character styles, in my mainmatter, for almost every kind of appearance, but as I've written (and maybe ranted) often in the past, LyX/LaTeX styles are difficult to create for a non-LaTeX-guru. In about 2005 I briefly flirted with OpenOffice, and dumped it when I realized its paragraph and character styles were too quirky to use with any confidence. Students and colleagues send me papers written in Word all the time, and I'm struggling to remember a single time any one of them sent me one that used styles. So, yes, certainly styles exist in Word, et al, but those tools do not encourage, let alone enforce, the use of such styles, and that is an important difference between LyX and standard word processors: LyX is style-based, from the ground up, not a finger-painting tool with styles grafted onto it. I think that's an unfair statement. MS Word styles work quite well and are integral to Word. Word's styles are MUCH easier to create than LyX's. One could argue that Word doesn't come with document classes that define an important set of styles, but Word is distributed with templates that do. That's why learning to use LyX, even to write a letter, is such a big adjustment for people. For me it's an adjustment because creating a new style can take between an hour and 3 days in LyX, but only 5-15 minutes in Word. Speaking as a teacher, I often worry that my students are themselves much too worried about formatting even while they are writing first drafts, That's exactly right. and this is in large part because WYSIWYG tools present writing and formatting as one thing and not as two. I'd put it a little differently -- it's because the students haven't yet understood the benefits of consistent appearences through the document, and the benefits of change one style and change its appearance throughout the document. Oh, and some people are just turkeys, and they put 10 fonts on one page and think they've been creative. [clip] So in my opinion this isnt really one of the strong points of LaTeX. Rather I find the ability of being able to typeset mathematical equations as being one of the strongest points of LaTeX, together with being able to seamlessly insert bibliographies and cross-references. Hi Patrick, I hardly ever use equations in my books, and usually don't use bibliographies, and even if I did it would be easy to do it manually, and I'm pretty sure MS Word does bibliographies. What I like about LyX over MS Word is: 1) LyX is rock stable. 2) LyX's native format is humanly readable and parsable. 3) LyX produces beautiful output with minimal tweaking. 4) LyX is free software. No license tracking. 5) LyX is pretty good about version conversion -- probably better than Word. LyX is a very fast tool with which I can pound out 2000-3000 words per day, and not have to worry about the look of the output -- I know it will be good. It's incredibly easy to use. One overlooked benefit is it won't let me put in a double space or a double linefeed. I handle the fact that LyX is much harder than Word to make styles like this: When writing and perceiving I need a new style, I make a dummy style, with the proper name, and continue writing so as not to lose my train of thought.
Re: [Fwd: Re: Word processor bashing]
From: rgheck [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [Fwd: Re: Word processor bashing] To: lyx-users lyx-users@lists.lyx.org Received: Tuesday, November 4, 2008, 7:19 PM I know a lot of people who use Word, etc, and I don't know a single person who regularly uses styles. I suspect that some do but in the documents I get, Styles use seems rare. It may be increasing with the new Word2007 toolbar layout. I still see a lot of this type of thing. http://ca.geocities.com/jrkrideau/images/cvpic.jpg This is from an academic CV of a fairly sucessful professor who in 8-12 years in academic as student and prof has never learned to use even basic styles, or any other reasonable formatting techniques. Speaking as a teacher, I often worry that my students are themselves much too worried about formatting even while they are writing first drafts, and this is in large part because WYSIWYG tools present writing and formatting as one thing and not as two. I think you're right and not just for students. Some Word documents I see from businesses and government are incredible Rube Goldberg documents that look very good but are impossible to modify. For what it's worth, I do use OpenOffice Writer for some things, but these are mostly DTP type applications, such as a church bulletin or a news letter, and I'd probably be better off using Scribus (say) if I only I weren't too lazy to learn how to use it. Most OOo users would agree :) It's not a DTP tool. I use OOo all the time and once you have your own style templates set up it is pretty good and even handles large documents quite well but it does not compare to LyX for really professinal output. For me, a strange but very handy use of LyX is to convert very badly laid-out working documents from Word to something in an article format. It immediately is several hundred percent more readable. Unless I have to redo some equations (not all that common in the papers I am coverting) I can get a nice clean readable paper in 15-30 minutes and can usually save a couple of hours of frustration that I would spend trying to read a poorly formatted document. Quarter inch margins are such fun! __ Yahoo! Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now at http://ca.toolbar.yahoo.com.
Re: [Fwd: Re: Word processor bashing]
Steve Litt wrote: [...] What I like about LyX over MS Word is: 1) LyX is rock stable. 2) LyX's native format is humanly readable and parsable. 3) LyX produces beautiful output with minimal tweaking. 4) LyX is free software. No license tracking. 5) LyX is pretty good about version conversion -- probably better than Word. 3) is important. All other word processors _can_ produce beautiful output. But other word processors lets you screw up much easier. LyX is based on styles, instead of having them as options. Other word processors also force you to do manually what latex does automatically. I see a lot of word/oo documents, and some faults repeat all the time: * Ragged right margins - urgh. This has its uses, but single-column A4 is not one of them. But _everybody_ makes this mistake. Probably because it is default? * The section heading as the last item on a page. Other word processors don't seem to prevent this, it is up to the user instead. * Lots of little font inconsistencies that are quite hard to create in LyX. The occational double linefeed. Errors seen occationally: * Errors in the TOC. Strange that this is possible at all. * Bizarre formatting oddities because the user made a formatting change that the word processor couldn't handle. Yes - changing the appearance of a style is much easier in other word processors. But if you actually do that to an existing document, then you'll see what happens to all the little manual tweaks you have done. Tweaks the word processors ought to do for you. An interesting test: Change the page layout for a 30-page well-formatted document. Different margins and paper size, different font size. These things are easily changed in LyX too. Don't fix up anything, just make PDFs after changing. The LyX one will likely be ok. Helge Hafting
Re: [Fwd: Re: Word processor bashing]
Helge Hafting wrote: I see a lot of word/oo documents, and some faults repeat all the time: * The section heading as the last item on a page. Other word processors don't seem to prevent this, it is up to the user instead. This is in large part because people don't use Styles. Most of the heading styles have a Keep with next paragraph type setting. But then, of course, there are other issues, such as the infamous Word footnote bug that, from what I can tell, still persists in some places. Errors seen occationally: * Errors in the TOC. Strange that this is possible at all. Let me add: * Inconsistent reference format and missing bibliography items. Yes, you can pay through the nose for Endnote or whatever, but people don't, and it's not properly integrated. Richard
Re: [Fwd: Re: Word processor bashing]
Hello LyXers, Steve Litt schrieb: What I like about LyX over MS Word is: 1) LyX is rock stable. 2) LyX's native format is humanly readable and parsable. 3) LyX produces beautiful output with minimal tweaking. 4) LyX is free software. No license tracking. 5) LyX is pretty good about version conversion -- probably better than Word. Another addition to that would also be my (in this case specific) experience: A colleague and me did our thesis both at the same time. He used MSWord and I used LyX. Besides the facts mentioned there was the interesting point of file sizes. We had roughly the same amount of pages and graphics/images inside (around 130 pages each). The rendered PDF of my thesis was 2.7 MB, his (made from Word) was 120 MB! Almost the same size like the original Word document. To be fair - he had to embed his data because linking was not very reliable in Word (after doing this for some time Word messed up with the linking and finally smashed his doc). Because of this reliability he had also to do backups as often as he could, so he ended up with some 4 gig of backup. Of course I backuped as well, but since the LyX file is so small (due to working linking and not messing up with it) it's not worth mentioning it... Also when I work with students who write their thesis in Word - even today the same problems like page numbering not working anymore after you had to insert some pages before a new chapter etc. I like LaTeX and LyX also due to the fact that once you have setup your document properties you can focus on the content! So I'd like to thank the developers for putting this much effort in the improvement of LyX. Keep on the good work :-) Oliver -- “Waiting is a very funny activity: you can’t wait twice as fast.” Edsger Wybe Dijkstra
Re: [Fwd: Re: Word processor bashing]
On Wed, 5 Nov 2008 09:39:00 -0500 Steve Litt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tuesday 04 November 2008 07:19:32 pm rgheck wrote: Since Uwe moved this to users, I'll forward my comments here as well. Original Message Subject:Re: Word processor bashing Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2008 17:06:13 -0500 From: RGH [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Patrick Camilleri [EMAIL PROTECTED] CC: [EMAIL PROTECTED] References: [EMAIL PROTECTED]@ovgu.de Patrick Camilleri wrote: Dear Sir, Though I find LaTeX + LyX to be a very good typesetting system, I dont understand all this bashing at other word processors in your Introduction to LyX document. In my opinion if one took at least ŧ the amount of time one needed to learn LaTeX, one would find out that modern Word Processors are indeed very capable tools. Styles have been supported, at least in Word, since quite some time and not just in most recent versions as quoted in the footnote on page 2. I already remember using Styles in Word 97 and frankly I cant imagine anybody writing anything longer than 4 pages without having any concept of Styles. You would go crazy! Most people I know ignore styles all together in word. For all my wifes accademic works, she would write them out and then I would spend a day convrting everything to styles to get it to be consistent. They are a pain though with word as it's very difficult to find where styles are not applied or are modified and it can go crazy over small modifications. The only sane way I found to work with styles in word is in outline mode, which is much closer to latex in approach. I'd have to go back and look at the Intro to see precisely what it says, so I won't defend it (yet). But I will take exception to this last claim. I know a lot of people who use Word, etc, and I don't know a single person who regularly uses styles. You know him now :-) Hi Richard, By 1988 I used paragraph and character styles for almost every kind of appearance, in my mainmatter, in WordPerfect 5.0. After switching to MS Word in 1994, I used paragraph and character styles, in my mainmatter, for almost every kind of appearance. After switching to LyX in 2001 I tried my best to use paragraph and character styles, in my mainmatter, for almost every kind of appearance, but as I've written (and maybe ranted) often in the past, LyX/LaTeX styles are difficult to create for a non-LaTeX-guru. One of the advantages with lyx/latex is that I haven't found the need yet. And the small amount I have needed was always either done by some package or other or can be very easily achieved with \newcommand In about 2005 I briefly flirted with OpenOffice, and dumped it when I realized its paragraph and character styles were too quirky to use with any confidence. It can be annoying. Students and colleagues send me papers written in Word all the time, and I'm struggling to remember a single time any one of them sent me one that used styles. So, yes, certainly styles exist in Word, et al, but those tools do not encourage, let alone enforce, the use of such styles, and that is an important difference between LyX and standard word processors: LyX is style-based, from the ground up, not a finger-painting tool with styles grafted onto it. I just refuse to accept word documents. I tell my students that if they want to send me text, either write it as text, convert it to pdf or scan it in hand writing. Since my work is equations (mathematics) I can never read them properly in word format. I haven't found a good reason yet not to force my will on other people on this point and I tend to be rather stubborn ... ;-) I think that's an unfair statement. MS Word styles work quite well and are integral to Word. Word's styles are MUCH easier to create than LyX's. One could argue that Word doesn't come with document classes that define an important set of styles, but Word is distributed with templates that do. They are easier to make than lyx but a hell to keep consistent as word has a serious tendency to locally tweak or forget them for some reason. I also tried working with them in word 2007 and it was hell with the new and terrible ribbon. That's why learning to use LyX, even to write a letter, is such a big adjustment for people. Writing a letter in lyx is a pain. Writing a paper or god forbid a thesis in word is torture. Mixing ltr and rtl languages and to be so bold as to throw in a few equations under word is nearly impossible, styles or not. For me it's an adjustment because creating a new style can take between an hour and 3 days in LyX, but only 5-15 minutes in Word. Speaking as a teacher, I often worry that my students are themselves much too worried about formatting even while they are writing first drafts, That's exactly right. and this is in large part because WYSIWYG
Re: [Fwd: Re: Word processor bashing]
On Tuesday 04 November 2008 07:19:32 pm rgheck wrote: Since Uwe moved this to users, I'll forward my comments here as well. Original Message Subject: Re: Word processor bashing Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2008 17:06:13 -0500 From: RGH [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Patrick Camilleri [EMAIL PROTECTED] CC: [EMAIL PROTECTED] References: [EMAIL PROTECTED]@ovgu.de Patrick Camilleri wrote: Dear Sir, Though I find LaTeX + LyX to be a very good typesetting system, I dont understand all this bashing at other word processors in your Introduction to LyX document. In my opinion if one took at least ŧ the amount of time one needed to learn LaTeX, one would find out that modern Word Processors are indeed very capable tools. Styles have been supported, at least in Word, since quite some time and not just in most recent versions as quoted in the footnote on page 2. I already remember using Styles in Word 97 and frankly I cant imagine anybody writing anything longer than 4 pages without having any concept of Styles. You would go crazy! I'd have to go back and look at the Intro to see precisely what it says, so I won't defend it (yet). But I will take exception to this last claim. I know a lot of people who use Word, etc, and I don't know a single person who regularly uses styles. You know him now :-) Hi Richard, By 1988 I used paragraph and character styles for almost every kind of appearance, in my mainmatter, in WordPerfect 5.0. After switching to MS Word in 1994, I used paragraph and character styles, in my mainmatter, for almost every kind of appearance. After switching to LyX in 2001 I tried my best to use paragraph and character styles, in my mainmatter, for almost every kind of appearance, but as I've written (and maybe ranted) often in the past, LyX/LaTeX styles are difficult to create for a non-LaTeX-guru. In about 2005 I briefly flirted with OpenOffice, and dumped it when I realized its paragraph and character styles were too quirky to use with any confidence. Students and colleagues send me papers written in Word all the time, and I'm struggling to remember a single time any one of them sent me one that used styles. So, yes, certainly styles exist in Word, et al, but those tools do not encourage, let alone enforce, the use of such styles, and that is an important difference between LyX and standard word processors: LyX is style-based, from the ground up, not a finger-painting tool with styles grafted onto it. I think that's an unfair statement. MS Word styles work quite well and are integral to Word. Word's styles are MUCH easier to create than LyX's. One could argue that Word doesn't come with document classes that define an important set of styles, but Word is distributed with templates that do. That's why learning to use LyX, even to write a letter, is such a big adjustment for people. For me it's an adjustment because creating a new style can take between an hour and 3 days in LyX, but only 5-15 minutes in Word. Speaking as a teacher, I often worry that my students are themselves much too worried about formatting even while they are writing first drafts, That's exactly right. and this is in large part because WYSIWYG tools present writing and formatting as one thing and not as two. I'd put it a little differently -- it's because the students haven't yet understood the benefits of consistent appearences through the document, and the benefits of change one style and change its appearance throughout the document. Oh, and some people are just turkeys, and they put 10 fonts on one page and think they've been creative. [clip] So in my opinion this isnt really one of the strong points of LaTeX. Rather I find the ability of being able to typeset mathematical equations as being one of the strongest points of LaTeX, together with being able to seamlessly insert bibliographies and cross-references. Hi Patrick, I hardly ever use equations in my books, and usually don't use bibliographies, and even if I did it would be easy to do it manually, and I'm pretty sure MS Word does bibliographies. What I like about LyX over MS Word is: 1) LyX is rock stable. 2) LyX's native format is humanly readable and parsable. 3) LyX produces beautiful output with minimal tweaking. 4) LyX is free software. No license tracking. 5) LyX is pretty good about version conversion -- probably better than Word. LyX is a very fast tool with which I can pound out 2000-3000 words per day, and not have to worry about the look of the output -- I know it will be good. It's incredibly easy to use. One overlooked benefit is it won't let me put in a double space or a double linefeed. I handle the fact that LyX is much harder than Word to make styles like this: When writing and perceiving I need a new style, I make a dummy style, with the proper name, and continue writing so as not to lose my train of thought.
Re: [Fwd: Re: Word processor bashing]
From: rgheck [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [Fwd: Re: Word processor bashing] To: lyx-users lyx-users@lists.lyx.org Received: Tuesday, November 4, 2008, 7:19 PM I know a lot of people who use Word, etc, and I don't know a single person who regularly uses styles. I suspect that some do but in the documents I get, Styles use seems rare. It may be increasing with the new Word2007 toolbar layout. I still see a lot of this type of thing. http://ca.geocities.com/jrkrideau/images/cvpic.jpg This is from an academic CV of a fairly sucessful professor who in 8-12 years in academic as student and prof has never learned to use even basic styles, or any other reasonable formatting techniques. Speaking as a teacher, I often worry that my students are themselves much too worried about formatting even while they are writing first drafts, and this is in large part because WYSIWYG tools present writing and formatting as one thing and not as two. I think you're right and not just for students. Some Word documents I see from businesses and government are incredible Rube Goldberg documents that look very good but are impossible to modify. For what it's worth, I do use OpenOffice Writer for some things, but these are mostly DTP type applications, such as a church bulletin or a news letter, and I'd probably be better off using Scribus (say) if I only I weren't too lazy to learn how to use it. Most OOo users would agree :) It's not a DTP tool. I use OOo all the time and once you have your own style templates set up it is pretty good and even handles large documents quite well but it does not compare to LyX for really professinal output. For me, a strange but very handy use of LyX is to convert very badly laid-out working documents from Word to something in an article format. It immediately is several hundred percent more readable. Unless I have to redo some equations (not all that common in the papers I am coverting) I can get a nice clean readable paper in 15-30 minutes and can usually save a couple of hours of frustration that I would spend trying to read a poorly formatted document. Quarter inch margins are such fun! __ Yahoo! Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now at http://ca.toolbar.yahoo.com.
Re: [Fwd: Re: Word processor bashing]
Steve Litt wrote: [...] What I like about LyX over MS Word is: 1) LyX is rock stable. 2) LyX's native format is humanly readable and parsable. 3) LyX produces beautiful output with minimal tweaking. 4) LyX is free software. No license tracking. 5) LyX is pretty good about version conversion -- probably better than Word. 3) is important. All other word processors _can_ produce beautiful output. But other word processors lets you screw up much easier. LyX is based on styles, instead of having them as options. Other word processors also force you to do manually what latex does automatically. I see a lot of word/oo documents, and some faults repeat all the time: * Ragged right margins - urgh. This has its uses, but single-column A4 is not one of them. But _everybody_ makes this mistake. Probably because it is default? * The section heading as the last item on a page. Other word processors don't seem to prevent this, it is up to the user instead. * Lots of little font inconsistencies that are quite hard to create in LyX. The occational double linefeed. Errors seen occationally: * Errors in the TOC. Strange that this is possible at all. * Bizarre formatting oddities because the user made a formatting change that the word processor couldn't handle. Yes - changing the appearance of a style is much easier in other word processors. But if you actually do that to an existing document, then you'll see what happens to all the little manual tweaks you have done. Tweaks the word processors ought to do for you. An interesting test: Change the page layout for a 30-page well-formatted document. Different margins and paper size, different font size. These things are easily changed in LyX too. Don't fix up anything, just make PDFs after changing. The LyX one will likely be ok. Helge Hafting
Re: [Fwd: Re: Word processor bashing]
Helge Hafting wrote: I see a lot of word/oo documents, and some faults repeat all the time: * The section heading as the last item on a page. Other word processors don't seem to prevent this, it is up to the user instead. This is in large part because people don't use Styles. Most of the heading styles have a Keep with next paragraph type setting. But then, of course, there are other issues, such as the infamous Word footnote bug that, from what I can tell, still persists in some places. Errors seen occationally: * Errors in the TOC. Strange that this is possible at all. Let me add: * Inconsistent reference format and missing bibliography items. Yes, you can pay through the nose for Endnote or whatever, but people don't, and it's not properly integrated. Richard
Re: [Fwd: Re: Word processor bashing]
Hello LyXers, Steve Litt schrieb: What I like about LyX over MS Word is: 1) LyX is rock stable. 2) LyX's native format is humanly readable and parsable. 3) LyX produces beautiful output with minimal tweaking. 4) LyX is free software. No license tracking. 5) LyX is pretty good about version conversion -- probably better than Word. Another addition to that would also be my (in this case specific) experience: A colleague and me did our thesis both at the same time. He used MSWord and I used LyX. Besides the facts mentioned there was the interesting point of file sizes. We had roughly the same amount of pages and graphics/images inside (around 130 pages each). The rendered PDF of my thesis was 2.7 MB, his (made from Word) was 120 MB! Almost the same size like the original Word document. To be fair - he had to embed his data because linking was not very reliable in Word (after doing this for some time Word messed up with the linking and finally smashed his doc). Because of this reliability he had also to do backups as often as he could, so he ended up with some 4 gig of backup. Of course I backuped as well, but since the LyX file is so small (due to working linking and not messing up with it) it's not worth mentioning it... Also when I work with students who write their thesis in Word - even today the same problems like page numbering not working anymore after you had to insert some pages before a new chapter etc. I like LaTeX and LyX also due to the fact that once you have setup your document properties you can focus on the content! So I'd like to thank the developers for putting this much effort in the improvement of LyX. Keep on the good work :-) Oliver -- “Waiting is a very funny activity: you can’t wait twice as fast.” Edsger Wybe Dijkstra
Re: [Fwd: Re: Word processor bashing]
On Wed, 5 Nov 2008 09:39:00 -0500 Steve Litt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tuesday 04 November 2008 07:19:32 pm rgheck wrote: Since Uwe moved this to users, I'll forward my comments here as well. Original Message Subject:Re: Word processor bashing Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2008 17:06:13 -0500 From: RGH [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Patrick Camilleri [EMAIL PROTECTED] CC: [EMAIL PROTECTED] References: [EMAIL PROTECTED]@ovgu.de Patrick Camilleri wrote: Dear Sir, Though I find LaTeX + LyX to be a very good typesetting system, I dont understand all this bashing at other word processors in your Introduction to LyX document. In my opinion if one took at least ŧ the amount of time one needed to learn LaTeX, one would find out that modern Word Processors are indeed very capable tools. Styles have been supported, at least in Word, since quite some time and not just in most recent versions as quoted in the footnote on page 2. I already remember using Styles in Word 97 and frankly I cant imagine anybody writing anything longer than 4 pages without having any concept of Styles. You would go crazy! Most people I know ignore styles all together in word. For all my wifes accademic works, she would write them out and then I would spend a day convrting everything to styles to get it to be consistent. They are a pain though with word as it's very difficult to find where styles are not applied or are modified and it can go crazy over small modifications. The only sane way I found to work with styles in word is in outline mode, which is much closer to latex in approach. I'd have to go back and look at the Intro to see precisely what it says, so I won't defend it (yet). But I will take exception to this last claim. I know a lot of people who use Word, etc, and I don't know a single person who regularly uses styles. You know him now :-) Hi Richard, By 1988 I used paragraph and character styles for almost every kind of appearance, in my mainmatter, in WordPerfect 5.0. After switching to MS Word in 1994, I used paragraph and character styles, in my mainmatter, for almost every kind of appearance. After switching to LyX in 2001 I tried my best to use paragraph and character styles, in my mainmatter, for almost every kind of appearance, but as I've written (and maybe ranted) often in the past, LyX/LaTeX styles are difficult to create for a non-LaTeX-guru. One of the advantages with lyx/latex is that I haven't found the need yet. And the small amount I have needed was always either done by some package or other or can be very easily achieved with \newcommand In about 2005 I briefly flirted with OpenOffice, and dumped it when I realized its paragraph and character styles were too quirky to use with any confidence. It can be annoying. Students and colleagues send me papers written in Word all the time, and I'm struggling to remember a single time any one of them sent me one that used styles. So, yes, certainly styles exist in Word, et al, but those tools do not encourage, let alone enforce, the use of such styles, and that is an important difference between LyX and standard word processors: LyX is style-based, from the ground up, not a finger-painting tool with styles grafted onto it. I just refuse to accept word documents. I tell my students that if they want to send me text, either write it as text, convert it to pdf or scan it in hand writing. Since my work is equations (mathematics) I can never read them properly in word format. I haven't found a good reason yet not to force my will on other people on this point and I tend to be rather stubborn ... ;-) I think that's an unfair statement. MS Word styles work quite well and are integral to Word. Word's styles are MUCH easier to create than LyX's. One could argue that Word doesn't come with document classes that define an important set of styles, but Word is distributed with templates that do. They are easier to make than lyx but a hell to keep consistent as word has a serious tendency to locally tweak or forget them for some reason. I also tried working with them in word 2007 and it was hell with the new and terrible ribbon. That's why learning to use LyX, even to write a letter, is such a big adjustment for people. Writing a letter in lyx is a pain. Writing a paper or god forbid a thesis in word is torture. Mixing ltr and rtl languages and to be so bold as to throw in a few equations under word is nearly impossible, styles or not. For me it's an adjustment because creating a new style can take between an hour and 3 days in LyX, but only 5-15 minutes in Word. Speaking as a teacher, I often worry that my students are themselves much too worried about formatting even while they are writing first drafts, That's exactly right. and this is in large part because WYSIWYG
Re: [Fwd: Re: Word processor bashing]
On Tuesday 04 November 2008 07:19:32 pm rgheck wrote: > Since Uwe moved this to users, I'll forward my comments here as well. > > Original Message > Subject: Re: Word processor bashing > Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2008 17:06:13 -0500 > From: RGH <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: Patrick Camilleri <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > CC: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]@ovgu.de> > > Patrick Camilleri wrote: > > Dear Sir, > > > > Though I find LaTeX + LyX to be a very good typesetting system, I dont > > understand all this bashing at other word processors in your > > Introduction to LyX document. In my opinion if one took at least ŧ the > > amount of time one needed to learn LaTeX, one would find out that modern > > Word Processors are indeed very capable tools. Styles have been > > supported, at least in Word, since quite some time and not just in most > > recent versions as quoted in the footnote on page 2. I already remember > > using Styles in Word 97 and frankly I cant imagine anybody writing > > anything longer than 4 pages without having any concept of Styles. You > > would go crazy! > > I'd have to go back and look at the Intro to see precisely what it says, > so I won't defend it (yet). But I will take exception to this last > claim. I know a lot of people who use Word, etc, and I don't know a > single person who regularly uses styles. You know him now :-) Hi Richard, By 1988 I used paragraph and character styles for almost every kind of appearance, in my mainmatter, in WordPerfect 5.0. After switching to MS Word in 1994, I used paragraph and character styles, in my mainmatter, for almost every kind of appearance. After switching to LyX in 2001 I tried my best to use paragraph and character styles, in my mainmatter, for almost every kind of appearance, but as I've written (and maybe ranted) often in the past, LyX/LaTeX styles are difficult to create for a non-LaTeX-guru. In about 2005 I briefly flirted with OpenOffice, and dumped it when I realized its paragraph and character styles were too quirky to use with any confidence. > Students and colleagues send me > papers written in Word all the time, and I'm struggling to remember a > single time any one of them sent me one that used styles. So, yes, > certainly styles exist in Word, et al, but those tools do not encourage, > let alone enforce, the use of such styles, and that is an important > difference between LyX and standard word processors: LyX is style-based, > from the ground up, not a finger-painting tool with styles grafted onto > it. I think that's an unfair statement. MS Word styles work quite well and are integral to Word. Word's styles are MUCH easier to create than LyX's. One could argue that Word doesn't come with document classes that define an important set of styles, but Word is distributed with templates that do. > That's why learning to use LyX, even to write a letter, is such a > big adjustment for people. For me it's an adjustment because creating a new style can take between an hour and 3 days in LyX, but only 5-15 minutes in Word. > Speaking as a teacher, I often worry that my > students are themselves much too worried about formatting even while > they are writing first drafts, That's exactly right. > and this is in large part because WYSIWYG > tools present writing and formatting as one thing and not as two. I'd put it a little differently -- it's because the students haven't yet understood the benefits of consistent appearences through the document, and the benefits of change one style and change its appearance throughout the document. Oh, and some people are just turkeys, and they put 10 fonts on one page and think they've been creative. [clip] > > So in my opinion this isnt really one of the strong points of LaTeX. > > Rather I find the ability of being able to typeset mathematical equations > > as being one of the strongest points of LaTeX, together with being able > > to seamlessly insert bibliographies and cross-references. Hi Patrick, I hardly ever use equations in my books, and usually don't use bibliographies, and even if I did it would be easy to do it manually, and I'm pretty sure MS Word does bibliographies. What I like about LyX over MS Word is: 1) LyX is rock stable. 2) LyX's native format is humanly readable and parsable. 3) LyX produces beautiful output with minimal tweaking. 4) LyX is free software. No license tracking. 5) LyX is pretty good about version conversion -- probably better than Word. LyX is a very fast tool with which I can pound out 2000-3000 words per day, and not have to worry about the look of the output -- I know it will be good. It's incredibly easy to use. One overlooked benefit is it won't let me put in a double space or a double linefeed. I handle the fact that LyX is much harder than Word to make styles like this: When writing and perceiving I need a new style, I make a dummy style, with the
Re: [Fwd: Re: Word processor bashing]
> From: rgheck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: [Fwd: Re: Word processor bashing] > To: "lyx-users" <lyx-users@lists.lyx.org> > Received: Tuesday, November 4, 2008, 7:19 PM >I know a lot of > people who use Word, etc, and I don't know a single > person who regularly uses styles. I suspect that some do but in the documents I get, Styles use seems rare. It may be increasing with the new Word2007 toolbar layout. I still see a lot of this type of thing. http://ca.geocities.com/jrkrideau/images/cvpic.jpg This is from an academic CV of a fairly sucessful professor who in 8-12 years in academic as student and prof has never learned to use even basic styles, or any other reasonable formatting techniques. > Speaking as a teacher, I often worry that my > students are themselves much too worried about formatting > even while they are writing first drafts, and this is in > large part because WYSIWYG tools present writing and > formatting as one thing and not as two. I think you're right and not just for students. Some Word documents I see from businesses and government are incredible Rube Goldberg documents that look very good but are impossible to modify. > > For what it's worth, I do use OpenOffice Writer for > some things, but these are mostly DTP type applications, > such as a church bulletin or a news letter, and I'd > probably be better off using Scribus (say) if I only I > weren't too lazy to learn how to use it. Most OOo users would agree :) It's not a DTP tool. I use OOo all the time and once you have your own style templates set up it is pretty good and even handles large documents quite well but it does not compare to LyX for really professinal output. For me, a strange but very handy use of LyX is to convert very badly laid-out working documents from Word to something in an article format. It immediately is several hundred percent more readable. Unless I have to redo some equations (not all that common in the papers I am coverting) I can get a nice clean readable paper in 15-30 minutes and can usually save a couple of hours of frustration that I would spend trying to read a poorly formatted document. Quarter inch margins are such fun! __ Yahoo! Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now at http://ca.toolbar.yahoo.com.
Re: [Fwd: Re: Word processor bashing]
Steve Litt wrote: [...] What I like about LyX over MS Word is: 1) LyX is rock stable. 2) LyX's native format is humanly readable and parsable. 3) LyX produces beautiful output with minimal tweaking. 4) LyX is free software. No license tracking. 5) LyX is pretty good about version conversion -- probably better than Word. 3) is important. All other word processors _can_ produce beautiful output. But other word processors lets you screw up much easier. LyX is based on styles, instead of having them as "options". Other word processors also force you to do manually what latex does automatically. I see a lot of word/oo documents, and some faults repeat all the time: * Ragged right margins - urgh. This has its uses, but single-column A4 is not one of them. But _everybody_ makes this mistake. Probably because it is default? * The section heading as the last item on a page. Other word processors don't seem to prevent this, it is up to the user instead. * Lots of little font inconsistencies that are quite hard to create in LyX. The occational double linefeed. Errors seen occationally: * Errors in the TOC. Strange that this is possible at all. * Bizarre formatting oddities because the user made a formatting change that the word processor couldn't handle. Yes - changing the appearance of a style is much easier in other word processors. But if you actually do that to an existing document, then you'll see what happens to all the little manual tweaks you have done. Tweaks the word processors ought to do for you. An interesting test: Change the page layout for a 30-page well-formatted document. Different margins and paper size, different font size. These things are easily changed in LyX too. Don't "fix up" anything, just make PDFs after changing. The LyX one will likely be ok. Helge Hafting
Re: [Fwd: Re: Word processor bashing]
Helge Hafting wrote: I see a lot of word/oo documents, and some faults repeat all the time: * The section heading as the last item on a page. Other word processors don't seem to prevent this, it is up to the user instead. This is in large part because people don't use Styles. Most of the heading styles have a "Keep with next paragraph" type setting. But then, of course, there are other issues, such as the infamous Word footnote bug that, from what I can tell, still persists in some places. Errors seen occationally: * Errors in the TOC. Strange that this is possible at all. Let me add: * Inconsistent reference format and missing bibliography items. Yes, you can pay through the nose for Endnote or whatever, but people don't, and it's not properly integrated. Richard
Re: [Fwd: Re: Word processor bashing]
Hello LyXers, Steve Litt schrieb: > What I like about LyX over MS Word is: > > 1) LyX is rock stable. > 2) LyX's native format is humanly readable and parsable. > 3) LyX produces beautiful output with minimal tweaking. > 4) LyX is free software. No license tracking. > 5) LyX is pretty good about version conversion -- probably better than > Word. Another addition to that would also be my (in this case specific) experience: A colleague and me did our thesis both at the same time. He used MSWord and I used LyX. Besides the facts mentioned there was the interesting point of file sizes. We had roughly the same amount of pages and graphics/images inside (around 130 pages each). The rendered PDF of my thesis was 2.7 MB, his (made from Word) was 120 MB! Almost the same size like the original Word document. To be fair - he had to embed his data because linking was not very reliable in Word (after doing this for some time Word messed up with the linking and finally smashed his doc). Because of this "reliability" he had also to do backups as often as he could, so he ended up with some 4 gig of backup. Of course I backuped as well, but since the LyX file is so small (due to working linking and not messing up with it) it's not worth mentioning it... Also when I work with students who write their thesis in Word - even today the same problems like page numbering not working anymore after you had to insert some pages before a new chapter etc. I like LaTeX and LyX also due to the fact that once you have setup your document properties you can focus on the content! So I'd like to thank the developers for putting this much effort in the improvement of LyX. Keep on the good work :-) Oliver -- “Waiting is a very funny activity: you can’t wait twice as fast.” Edsger Wybe Dijkstra
Re: [Fwd: Re: Word processor bashing]
On Wed, 5 Nov 2008 09:39:00 -0500 Steve Litt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Tuesday 04 November 2008 07:19:32 pm rgheck wrote: > > Since Uwe moved this to users, I'll forward my comments here as well. > > > > Original Message > > Subject:Re: Word processor bashing > > Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2008 17:06:13 -0500 > > From: RGH <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: Patrick Camilleri <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > CC: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]@ovgu.de> > > > > Patrick Camilleri wrote: > > > Dear Sir, > > > > > > Though I find LaTeX + LyX to be a very good typesetting system, I dont > > > understand all this bashing at other word processors in your > > > Introduction to LyX document. In my opinion if one took at least ŧ the > > > amount of time one needed to learn LaTeX, one would find out that modern > > > Word Processors are indeed very capable tools. Styles have been > > > supported, at least in Word, since quite some time and not just in most > > > recent versions as quoted in the footnote on page 2. I already remember > > > using Styles in Word 97 and frankly I cant imagine anybody writing > > > anything longer than 4 pages without having any concept of Styles. You > > > would go crazy! Most people I know ignore styles all together in word. For all my wifes accademic works, she would write them out and then I would spend a day convrting everything to styles to get it to be consistent. They are a pain though with word as it's very difficult to find where styles are not applied or are modified and it can go crazy over small modifications. The only sane way I found to work with styles in word is in outline mode, which is much closer to latex in approach. > > > > I'd have to go back and look at the Intro to see precisely what it says, > > so I won't defend it (yet). But I will take exception to this last > > claim. I know a lot of people who use Word, etc, and I don't know a > > single person who regularly uses styles. > > You know him now :-) > > Hi Richard, > > By 1988 I used paragraph and character styles for almost every kind of > appearance, in my mainmatter, in WordPerfect 5.0. After switching to MS Word > in 1994, I used paragraph and character styles, in my mainmatter, for almost > every kind of appearance. After switching to LyX in 2001 I tried my best to > use paragraph and character styles, in my mainmatter, for almost every kind > of appearance, but as I've written (and maybe ranted) often in the past, > LyX/LaTeX styles are difficult to create for a non-LaTeX-guru. > One of the advantages with lyx/latex is that I haven't found the need yet. And the small amount I have needed was always either done by some package or other or can be very easily achieved with \newcommand > In about 2005 I briefly flirted with OpenOffice, and dumped it when I > realized its paragraph and character styles were too quirky to use with any > confidence. > It can be annoying. > > Students and colleagues send me > > papers written in Word all the time, and I'm struggling to remember a > > single time any one of them sent me one that used styles. So, yes, > > certainly styles exist in Word, et al, but those tools do not encourage, > > let alone enforce, the use of such styles, and that is an important > > difference between LyX and standard word processors: LyX is style-based, > > from the ground up, not a finger-painting tool with styles grafted onto > > it. I just refuse to accept word documents. I tell my students that if they want to send me text, either write it as text, convert it to pdf or scan it in hand writing. Since my work is equations (mathematics) I can never read them properly in word format. I haven't found a good reason yet not to force my will on other people on this point and I tend to be rather stubborn ... ;-) > > I think that's an unfair statement. MS Word styles work quite well and are > integral to Word. Word's styles are MUCH easier to create than LyX's. One > could argue that Word doesn't come with document classes that define an > important set of styles, but Word is distributed with templates that do. > They are easier to make than lyx but a hell to keep consistent as word has a serious tendency to locally tweak or forget them for some reason. I also tried working with them in word 2007 and it was hell with the new and terrible ribbon. > > That's why learning to use LyX, even to write a letter, is such a > > big adjustment for people. > Writing a letter in lyx is a pain. Writing a paper or god forbid a thesis in word is torture. Mixing ltr and rtl languages and to be so bold as to throw in a few equations under word is nearly impossible, styles or not. > For me it's an adjustment because creating a new style can take between an > hour and 3 days in LyX, but only 5-15 minutes in Word. > > > Speaking as a teacher, I often worry that my > > students are themselves much too worried about
[Fwd: Re: Word processor bashing]
Since Uwe moved this to users, I'll forward my comments here as well. Original Message Subject:Re: Word processor bashing Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2008 17:06:13 -0500 From: RGH [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Patrick Camilleri [EMAIL PROTECTED] CC: [EMAIL PROTECTED] References: [EMAIL PROTECTED]@ovgu.de Patrick Camilleri wrote: Dear Sir, Though I find LaTeX + LyX to be a very good typesetting system, I don’t understand all this bashing at other word processors in your ‘Introduction to LyX’ document. In my opinion if one took at least ¼ the amount of time one needed to learn LaTeX, one would find out that modern Word Processors are indeed very capable tools. Styles have been supported, at least in Word, since quite some time and not just in ‘most recent versions’ as quoted in the footnote on page 2. I already remember using Styles in Word 97 and frankly I can’t imagine anybody writing anything longer than 4 pages without having any concept of Styles. You would go crazy! I'd have to go back and look at the Intro to see precisely what it says, so I won't defend it (yet). But I will take exception to this last claim. I know a lot of people who use Word, etc, and I don't know a single person who regularly uses styles. Students and colleagues send me papers written in Word all the time, and I'm struggling to remember a single time any one of them sent me one that used styles. So, yes, certainly styles exist in Word, et al, but those tools do not encourage, let alone enforce, the use of such styles, and that is an important difference between LyX and standard word processors: LyX is style-based, from the ground up, not a finger-painting tool with styles grafted onto it. That's why learning to use LyX, even to write a letter, is such a big adjustment for people. Speaking as a teacher, I often worry that my students are themselves much too worried about formatting even while they are writing first drafts, and this is in large part because WYSIWYG tools present writing and formatting as one thing and not as two. For what it's worth, I do use OpenOffice Writer for some things, but these are mostly DTP type applications, such as a church bulletin or a news letter, and I'd probably be better off using Scribus (say) if I only I weren't too lazy to learn how to use it. (Yesterday, I used OOo to make a table comparing prices at different grocery stores. I guess it was good for that, too. But that's really killing a gnat with a nuke.) OOo is fine for dashing off quick letters, too. But really, I'd hate to have to go back to writing real papers in such a thing, and that's even true when I'm not using math, in large part because... So in my opinion this isn’t really one of the strong points of LaTeX. Rather I find the ability of being able to typeset mathematical equations as being one of the strongest points of LaTeX, together with being able to seamlessly insert bibliographies and cross-references. of how good the reference support is. The bibliography support in LyX is, in my view, every bit as good and probably better than what's commercially available. The only downside to what's freely available is that it is still too hard to write your own reference format. But BibLaTeX will go a good distance toward resolving that. Maybe so much so that some kind of GUI can even be imagined. This comment is more directed to LaTeX advocates rather than LyX since LyX helps alleviate this problem. I really don’t understand all these people saying that LaTeX is a far superior system because it lets you concentrate on your writing. I'm not sure who was saying that. Not us, as you say. The point of LaTeX is surely NOT that it lets you concentrate on writing. rh
Re: [Fwd: Re: Word processor bashing]
rgheck wrote: I know a lot of people who use Word, etc, and I don't know a single person who regularly uses styles. I do, but that's largely because I'm ornery, and will do things the Right Way even when the tool discourages it. (I use Word for some work documents, and Open Office for some academic documents, when interop is a requirement.) Students and colleagues send me papers written in Word all the time, and I'm struggling to remember a single time any one of them sent me one that used styles. This subject came up today on techrhet, the technology and rhetoric list, and the prevailing opinion seems to be that, yes, students do not use styles, and that training them to use styles would be a good addition to composition curricula. There's also a fair bit of sentiment that getting away from word processors would be nice, but that's not really an option for general-education composition today. Word processing - and specifically Word - is essentially a general-ed skill in itself, in today's job market. In advanced composition and digital-rhetoric classes, many people are teaching other writing tools. -- Michael Wojcik Micro Focus Rhetoric Writing, Michigan State University
[Fwd: Re: Word processor bashing]
Since Uwe moved this to users, I'll forward my comments here as well. Original Message Subject:Re: Word processor bashing Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2008 17:06:13 -0500 From: RGH [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Patrick Camilleri [EMAIL PROTECTED] CC: [EMAIL PROTECTED] References: [EMAIL PROTECTED]@ovgu.de Patrick Camilleri wrote: Dear Sir, Though I find LaTeX + LyX to be a very good typesetting system, I don’t understand all this bashing at other word processors in your ‘Introduction to LyX’ document. In my opinion if one took at least ¼ the amount of time one needed to learn LaTeX, one would find out that modern Word Processors are indeed very capable tools. Styles have been supported, at least in Word, since quite some time and not just in ‘most recent versions’ as quoted in the footnote on page 2. I already remember using Styles in Word 97 and frankly I can’t imagine anybody writing anything longer than 4 pages without having any concept of Styles. You would go crazy! I'd have to go back and look at the Intro to see precisely what it says, so I won't defend it (yet). But I will take exception to this last claim. I know a lot of people who use Word, etc, and I don't know a single person who regularly uses styles. Students and colleagues send me papers written in Word all the time, and I'm struggling to remember a single time any one of them sent me one that used styles. So, yes, certainly styles exist in Word, et al, but those tools do not encourage, let alone enforce, the use of such styles, and that is an important difference between LyX and standard word processors: LyX is style-based, from the ground up, not a finger-painting tool with styles grafted onto it. That's why learning to use LyX, even to write a letter, is such a big adjustment for people. Speaking as a teacher, I often worry that my students are themselves much too worried about formatting even while they are writing first drafts, and this is in large part because WYSIWYG tools present writing and formatting as one thing and not as two. For what it's worth, I do use OpenOffice Writer for some things, but these are mostly DTP type applications, such as a church bulletin or a news letter, and I'd probably be better off using Scribus (say) if I only I weren't too lazy to learn how to use it. (Yesterday, I used OOo to make a table comparing prices at different grocery stores. I guess it was good for that, too. But that's really killing a gnat with a nuke.) OOo is fine for dashing off quick letters, too. But really, I'd hate to have to go back to writing real papers in such a thing, and that's even true when I'm not using math, in large part because... So in my opinion this isn’t really one of the strong points of LaTeX. Rather I find the ability of being able to typeset mathematical equations as being one of the strongest points of LaTeX, together with being able to seamlessly insert bibliographies and cross-references. of how good the reference support is. The bibliography support in LyX is, in my view, every bit as good and probably better than what's commercially available. The only downside to what's freely available is that it is still too hard to write your own reference format. But BibLaTeX will go a good distance toward resolving that. Maybe so much so that some kind of GUI can even be imagined. This comment is more directed to LaTeX advocates rather than LyX since LyX helps alleviate this problem. I really don’t understand all these people saying that LaTeX is a far superior system because it lets you concentrate on your writing. I'm not sure who was saying that. Not us, as you say. The point of LaTeX is surely NOT that it lets you concentrate on writing. rh
Re: [Fwd: Re: Word processor bashing]
rgheck wrote: I know a lot of people who use Word, etc, and I don't know a single person who regularly uses styles. I do, but that's largely because I'm ornery, and will do things the Right Way even when the tool discourages it. (I use Word for some work documents, and Open Office for some academic documents, when interop is a requirement.) Students and colleagues send me papers written in Word all the time, and I'm struggling to remember a single time any one of them sent me one that used styles. This subject came up today on techrhet, the technology and rhetoric list, and the prevailing opinion seems to be that, yes, students do not use styles, and that training them to use styles would be a good addition to composition curricula. There's also a fair bit of sentiment that getting away from word processors would be nice, but that's not really an option for general-education composition today. Word processing - and specifically Word - is essentially a general-ed skill in itself, in today's job market. In advanced composition and digital-rhetoric classes, many people are teaching other writing tools. -- Michael Wojcik Micro Focus Rhetoric Writing, Michigan State University
[Fwd: Re: Word processor bashing]
Since Uwe moved this to users, I'll forward my comments here as well. Original Message Subject:Re: Word processor bashing Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2008 17:06:13 -0500 From: RGH <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Patrick Camilleri <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> CC: [EMAIL PROTECTED] References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]@ovgu.de> Patrick Camilleri wrote: Dear Sir, Though I find LaTeX + LyX to be a very good typesetting system, I don’t understand all this bashing at other word processors in your ‘Introduction to LyX’ document. In my opinion if one took at least ¼ the amount of time one needed to learn LaTeX, one would find out that modern Word Processors are indeed very capable tools. Styles have been supported, at least in Word, since quite some time and not just in ‘most recent versions’ as quoted in the footnote on page 2. I already remember using Styles in Word 97 and frankly I can’t imagine anybody writing anything longer than 4 pages without having any concept of Styles. You would go crazy! I'd have to go back and look at the Intro to see precisely what it says, so I won't defend it (yet). But I will take exception to this last claim. I know a lot of people who use Word, etc, and I don't know a single person who regularly uses styles. Students and colleagues send me papers written in Word all the time, and I'm struggling to remember a single time any one of them sent me one that used styles. So, yes, certainly styles exist in Word, et al, but those tools do not encourage, let alone enforce, the use of such styles, and that is an important difference between LyX and standard word processors: LyX is style-based, from the ground up, not a finger-painting tool with styles grafted onto it. That's why learning to use LyX, even to write a letter, is such a big adjustment for people. Speaking as a teacher, I often worry that my students are themselves much too worried about formatting even while they are writing first drafts, and this is in large part because WYSIWYG tools present writing and formatting as one thing and not as two. For what it's worth, I do use OpenOffice Writer for some things, but these are mostly DTP type applications, such as a church bulletin or a news letter, and I'd probably be better off using Scribus (say) if I only I weren't too lazy to learn how to use it. (Yesterday, I used OOo to make a table comparing prices at different grocery stores. I guess it was good for that, too. But that's really killing a gnat with a nuke.) OOo is fine for dashing off quick letters, too. But really, I'd hate to have to go back to writing real papers in such a thing, and that's even true when I'm not using math, in large part because... So in my opinion this isn’t really one of the strong points of LaTeX. Rather I find the ability of being able to typeset mathematical equations as being one of the strongest points of LaTeX, together with being able to seamlessly insert bibliographies and cross-references. of how good the reference support is. The bibliography support in LyX is, in my view, every bit as good and probably better than what's commercially available. The only downside to what's freely available is that it is still too hard to write your own reference format. But BibLaTeX will go a good distance toward resolving that. Maybe so much so that some kind of GUI can even be imagined. This comment is more directed to LaTeX advocates rather than LyX since LyX helps alleviate this problem. I really don’t understand all these people saying that LaTeX is a far superior system because it lets you concentrate on your writing. I'm not sure who was saying that. Not us, as you say. The point of LaTeX is surely NOT that it lets you concentrate on writing. rh
Re: [Fwd: Re: Word processor bashing]
rgheck wrote: > I know a lot of people who use Word, etc, and I don't know a > single person who regularly uses styles. I do, but that's largely because I'm ornery, and will do things the Right Way even when the tool discourages it. (I use Word for some work documents, and Open Office for some academic documents, when interop is a requirement.) > Students and colleagues send me > papers written in Word all the time, and I'm struggling to remember a > single time any one of them sent me one that used styles. This subject came up today on techrhet, the technology and rhetoric list, and the prevailing opinion seems to be that, yes, students do not use styles, and that training them to use styles would be a good addition to composition curricula. There's also a fair bit of sentiment that getting away from word processors would be nice, but that's not really an option for general-education composition today. Word processing - and specifically Word - is essentially a general-ed skill in itself, in today's job market. In advanced composition and digital-rhetoric classes, many people are teaching other writing tools. -- Michael Wojcik Micro Focus Rhetoric & Writing, Michigan State University
