Re: Lyx2doc: was Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

[Richard Heck]

On 06/11/2013 03:25 PM, Steve Litt wrote:

On Tue, 11 Jun 2013 14:38:23 -0400
Richard Heck rgh...@lyx.org wrote:


On 06/11/2013 02:03 PM, Steve Litt wrote:

On Tue, 11 Jun 2013 10:32:12 -0400
Richard Heck rgh...@lyx.org wrote:


On 06/10/2013 06:05 PM, Steve Litt wrote:

These days, it could be used as a front end to anything with the
proper styles defined, and the proper converter. So the same LyX
file could be used to output LaTeX, MSWord doc, XHTML, HTML,
simple HTML, or who knows what else.

To more easily accommodate this, it seems to me like layout files
should be split into an input side and an output side, with the
output side capable of multiple output formats. So the input side
might look something like this:

CharStyle MyEmph
Font
Shape Italic
EndFont

if outputtype == latex
  outputNamelatexlayout.layout/myemphL
  outputTypeCommand
elsif outputtype == simplehtml
  outputNamesimphtmllayout.layout/myemphH
  outputTypeInlineTag
else outputtype == msword
  outputNamewinwordlayout.layout/myemphW
  outputTypeCharacterStyle
End

Environments would be similar.

Ideally it would be designed so that it doesn't syntax check
inside the output type's it's not. That way you can develop one
output type at a time without getting errors from the ones you
haven't developed yet.

This can already be done, more or less. That is, I can't imagine
anything you'd want to do, as far as XHTML export goes, that isn't
provided for in the layout files.

Indeed, I am sufficiently confident about this that I'd be
surprised if it were not possible to build the sort of simple HTML
export you want simply by writing a new layout file.

Thanks Richard,

When I tried to do this with my layout file, it failed miserably.
Try as I might, I couldn't get Standard to map to p, nor could I
get Section to map to h1, etc.

If you want to send me your layout file, I will get it working.

Richard

Thanks Richard,

I'm sending you an entire tarballed directory tree with a minimal
example. As you'll see, LyxHTML convert respects my HTMLtag configs in
my layout file, except for mapping of Section and Subsection to h1
and h2 respectively, instead it maps to h1 and h3 respectively.


This is because you mis-spelled the layout name: It should be
Subsection, not SubSection. Same for Subsubsection and for
Subparagraph. These have to match what is in stdclass.inc, which
you are including, and which in turn includes stdsections.inc.

If you look on the paragraph style drop down, you will see that you
are getting new styles instead of modifying the old ones.


Convert to HTML does not respect my layout file's HTMLTag configs at
all.


That is because eLyXer does not know anything about layout files.
(It also does not know what LyX knows about translation.) As I said
in a separate message, this is in large part because it is not part of
LyX.

Richard

Re: Lyx2doc: was Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

[Richard Heck]

On 06/11/2013 03:25 PM, Steve Litt wrote:

On Tue, 11 Jun 2013 14:38:23 -0400
Richard Heck rgh...@lyx.org wrote:


On 06/11/2013 02:03 PM, Steve Litt wrote:

On Tue, 11 Jun 2013 10:32:12 -0400
Richard Heck rgh...@lyx.org wrote:


On 06/10/2013 06:05 PM, Steve Litt wrote:

These days, it could be used as a front end to anything with the
proper styles defined, and the proper converter. So the same LyX
file could be used to output LaTeX, MSWord doc, XHTML, HTML,
simple HTML, or who knows what else.

To more easily accommodate this, it seems to me like layout files
should be split into an input side and an output side, with the
output side capable of multiple output formats. So the input side
might look something like this:

CharStyle MyEmph
Font
Shape Italic
EndFont

if outputtype == latex
  outputNamelatexlayout.layout/myemphL
  outputTypeCommand
elsif outputtype == simplehtml
  outputNamesimphtmllayout.layout/myemphH
  outputTypeInlineTag
else outputtype == msword
  outputNamewinwordlayout.layout/myemphW
  outputTypeCharacterStyle
End

Environments would be similar.

Ideally it would be designed so that it doesn't syntax check
inside the output type's it's not. That way you can develop one
output type at a time without getting errors from the ones you
haven't developed yet.

This can already be done, more or less. That is, I can't imagine
anything you'd want to do, as far as XHTML export goes, that isn't
provided for in the layout files.

Indeed, I am sufficiently confident about this that I'd be
surprised if it were not possible to build the sort of simple HTML
export you want simply by writing a new layout file.

Thanks Richard,

When I tried to do this with my layout file, it failed miserably.
Try as I might, I couldn't get Standard to map to p, nor could I
get Section to map to h1, etc.

If you want to send me your layout file, I will get it working.

Richard

Thanks Richard,

I'm sending you an entire tarballed directory tree with a minimal
example. As you'll see, LyxHTML convert respects my HTMLtag configs in
my layout file, except for mapping of Section and Subsection to h1
and h2 respectively, instead it maps to h1 and h3 respectively.


This is because you mis-spelled the layout name: It should be
Subsection, not SubSection. Same for Subsubsection and for
Subparagraph. These have to match what is in stdclass.inc, which
you are including, and which in turn includes stdsections.inc.

If you look on the paragraph style drop down, you will see that you
are getting new styles instead of modifying the old ones.


Convert to HTML does not respect my layout file's HTMLTag configs at
all.


That is because eLyXer does not know anything about layout files.
(It also does not know what LyX knows about translation.) As I said
in a separate message, this is in large part because it is not part of
LyX.

Richard

Re: Lyx2doc: was Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

[Richard Heck]

On 06/11/2013 03:25 PM, Steve Litt wrote:

On Tue, 11 Jun 2013 14:38:23 -0400
Richard Heck  wrote:


On 06/11/2013 02:03 PM, Steve Litt wrote:

On Tue, 11 Jun 2013 10:32:12 -0400
Richard Heck  wrote:


On 06/10/2013 06:05 PM, Steve Litt wrote:

These days, it could be used as a front end to anything with the
proper styles defined, and the proper converter. So the same LyX
file could be used to output LaTeX, MSWord doc, XHTML, HTML,
simple HTML, or who knows what else.

To more easily accommodate this, it seems to me like layout files
should be split into an input side and an output side, with the
output side capable of multiple output formats. So the input side
might look something like this:

CharStyle MyEmph
Font
Shape Italic
EndFont

if outputtype == latex
  outputNamelatexlayout.layout/myemphL
  outputTypeCommand
elsif outputtype == simplehtml
  outputNamesimphtmllayout.layout/myemphH
  outputTypeInlineTag
else outputtype == msword
  outputNamewinwordlayout.layout/myemphW
  outputTypeCharacterStyle
End

Environments would be similar.

Ideally it would be designed so that it doesn't syntax check
inside the output type's it's not. That way you can develop one
output type at a time without getting errors from the ones you
haven't developed yet.

This can already be done, more or less. That is, I can't imagine
anything you'd want to do, as far as XHTML export goes, that isn't
provided for in the layout files.

Indeed, I am sufficiently confident about this that I'd be
surprised if it were not possible to build the sort of simple HTML
export you want simply by writing a new layout file.

Thanks Richard,

When I tried to do this with my layout file, it failed miserably.
Try as I might, I couldn't get Standard to map to , nor could I
get Section to map to , etc.

If you want to send me your layout file, I will get it working.

Richard

Thanks Richard,

I'm sending you an entire tarballed directory tree with a minimal
example. As you'll see, LyxHTML convert respects my HTMLtag configs in
my layout file, except for mapping of Section and Subsection to 
and  respectively, instead it maps to  and  respectively.


This is because you mis-spelled the layout name: It should be
"Subsection", not "SubSection". Same for "Subsubsection" and for
"Subparagraph". These have to match what is in stdclass.inc, which
you are including, and which in turn includes stdsections.inc.

If you look on the paragraph style drop down, you will see that you
are getting new styles instead of modifying the old ones.


Convert to HTML does not respect my layout file's HTMLTag configs at
all.


That is because eLyXer does not know anything about layout files.
(It also does not know what LyX knows about translation.) As I said
in a separate message, this is in large part because it is not part of
LyX.

Richard

Re: the dreaded docx export - WAS: Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

[Rainer M Krug]

Ray Rashif schivmeis...@gmail.com writes:

 On 12 June 2013 20:45, Rainer M Krug rai...@krugs.de wrote:

 stefano franchi stefano.fran...@gmail.com writes:

  On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 9:11 AM, Rainer M Krug rai...@krugs.de wrote:
 
  stefano franchi stefano.fran...@gmail.com writes:
 
   On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 2:21 AM, Rainer M Krug rai...@krugs.de
 wrote:
  
   Ray Rashif schivmeis...@gmail.com writes:
  
On 12 June 2013 03:57, stefano franchi stefano.fran...@gmail.com
   wrote:
   
   
   
   
On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 2:09 PM, Ray Rashif 
 schivmeis...@gmail.com
   wrote:
   
On 11 June 2013 14:15, Rainer M Krug rai...@krugs.de wrote:
   
I wanted to survey the LyX and LaTeX community for some opinions
 on
   this,
perhaps to get an idea as to the demand for some research into
 this
   area.
The project would do some empirical comparisons of the
 workarounds
  and
propose at most two or three solutions that work (integration
 with
   Pandoc,
or converintg directly to a simpler and well-supported language).
   
The emphasis would be on retaining as much semantic meaning as
   possible,
across different levels of complexity, starting from the very
  basic. I
   am
not aware of any similar academic or non-academic effort, but
 this
   could
also be a long blog post.
   
   
   
HI Ray,
   
I am not sure about what you're asking, exactly? Perhaps a survey
 of
  the
different lyx-doc(x) use cases that current lyx users care most
  about?
   Or
rather a definition of the simplest yet still useful use case we
 can
imagine? If the former, I would suggest starting a page on our
 wiki,
perhaps as a possible GSoC 2014 project, as a repository of useful
  cases
  
   I think to start a wiki page to outline a possible GSoC 2014 project
   would be a good idea.
  
  
   I created a page here:
 http://wiki.lyx.org/GSoC/GSoCProjectIdeasFor2014
   The first item on the page is Round trip conversion between LyX and
  .docx
   formats http://wiki.lyx.org/GSoC/GSoCProjectIdeasFor2014#toc1
   I entered a minimal description of what I take is both Rainer's and
 Ray's
   wishes.
   Could you guys expand it?
 
  Thanks Stefano.
 
  just added my ideas and my understanding[1]. Please add your ideas and
  suggestions.
 
 
 
  Thanks Rainer. I added a couple of desired items to your list.

 To collate the discussion, I added a ticket:

 http://www.lyx.org/trac/ticket/8745

 to record discussions there.

 Please feel free to close the ticket if this is an wrong usage of a
 ticket.


 Thanks guys, that's a good start. At first I wasn't sure how relevant this
 would be for LyX or a summer program like GSoC, but with what you guys have
 written the idea can be adapted and defined well. I'll add on if I see
 anything else missing.

Great - now we should nurture it and see that it has grown into
something worth of getting into the GSoC next year.

Cheers,

Rainer



 --
 GPG/PGP ID: C0711BF1

-- 
Rainer M. Krug

email: RMKrugatgmaildotcom


pgpCiXbkFfBbd.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: the dreaded docx export - WAS: Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

[Rainer M Krug]

Ray Rashif schivmeis...@gmail.com writes:

 On 12 June 2013 20:45, Rainer M Krug rai...@krugs.de wrote:

 stefano franchi stefano.fran...@gmail.com writes:

  On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 9:11 AM, Rainer M Krug rai...@krugs.de wrote:
 
  stefano franchi stefano.fran...@gmail.com writes:
 
   On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 2:21 AM, Rainer M Krug rai...@krugs.de
 wrote:
  
   Ray Rashif schivmeis...@gmail.com writes:
  
On 12 June 2013 03:57, stefano franchi stefano.fran...@gmail.com
   wrote:
   
   
   
   
On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 2:09 PM, Ray Rashif 
 schivmeis...@gmail.com
   wrote:
   
On 11 June 2013 14:15, Rainer M Krug rai...@krugs.de wrote:
   
I wanted to survey the LyX and LaTeX community for some opinions
 on
   this,
perhaps to get an idea as to the demand for some research into
 this
   area.
The project would do some empirical comparisons of the
 workarounds
  and
propose at most two or three solutions that work (integration
 with
   Pandoc,
or converintg directly to a simpler and well-supported language).
   
The emphasis would be on retaining as much semantic meaning as
   possible,
across different levels of complexity, starting from the very
  basic. I
   am
not aware of any similar academic or non-academic effort, but
 this
   could
also be a long blog post.
   
   
   
HI Ray,
   
I am not sure about what you're asking, exactly? Perhaps a survey
 of
  the
different lyx-doc(x) use cases that current lyx users care most
  about?
   Or
rather a definition of the simplest yet still useful use case we
 can
imagine? If the former, I would suggest starting a page on our
 wiki,
perhaps as a possible GSoC 2014 project, as a repository of useful
  cases
  
   I think to start a wiki page to outline a possible GSoC 2014 project
   would be a good idea.
  
  
   I created a page here:
 http://wiki.lyx.org/GSoC/GSoCProjectIdeasFor2014
   The first item on the page is Round trip conversion between LyX and
  .docx
   formats http://wiki.lyx.org/GSoC/GSoCProjectIdeasFor2014#toc1
   I entered a minimal description of what I take is both Rainer's and
 Ray's
   wishes.
   Could you guys expand it?
 
  Thanks Stefano.
 
  just added my ideas and my understanding[1]. Please add your ideas and
  suggestions.
 
 
 
  Thanks Rainer. I added a couple of desired items to your list.

 To collate the discussion, I added a ticket:

 http://www.lyx.org/trac/ticket/8745

 to record discussions there.

 Please feel free to close the ticket if this is an wrong usage of a
 ticket.


 Thanks guys, that's a good start. At first I wasn't sure how relevant this
 would be for LyX or a summer program like GSoC, but with what you guys have
 written the idea can be adapted and defined well. I'll add on if I see
 anything else missing.

Great - now we should nurture it and see that it has grown into
something worth of getting into the GSoC next year.

Cheers,

Rainer



 --
 GPG/PGP ID: C0711BF1

-- 
Rainer M. Krug

email: RMKrugatgmaildotcom


pgpCiXbkFfBbd.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: the dreaded docx export - WAS: Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

[Rainer M Krug]

Ray Rashif  writes:

> On 12 June 2013 20:45, Rainer M Krug  wrote:
>
>> stefano franchi  writes:
>>
>> > On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 9:11 AM, Rainer M Krug  wrote:
>> >
>> >> stefano franchi  writes:
>> >>
>> >> > On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 2:21 AM, Rainer M Krug 
>> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> Ray Rashif  writes:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > On 12 June 2013 03:57, stefano franchi 
>> >> >> wrote:
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 2:09 PM, Ray Rashif <
>> schivmeis...@gmail.com
>> >> >> >wrote:
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>> On 11 June 2013 14:15, Rainer M Krug  wrote:
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>> I wanted to survey the LyX and LaTeX community for some opinions
>> on
>> >> >> this,
>> >> >> >>> perhaps to get an idea as to the demand for some research into
>> this
>> >> >> area.
>> >> >> >>> The project would do some empirical comparisons of the
>> workarounds
>> >> and
>> >> >> >>> propose at most two or three solutions that work (integration
>> with
>> >> >> Pandoc,
>> >> >> >>> or converintg directly to a simpler and well-supported language).
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>> The emphasis would be on retaining as much semantic meaning as
>> >> >> possible,
>> >> >> >>> across different levels of complexity, starting from the very
>> >> basic. I
>> >> >> am
>> >> >> >>> not aware of any similar academic or non-academic effort, but
>> this
>> >> >> could
>> >> >> >>> also be a long blog post.
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> HI Ray,
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> I am not sure about what you're asking, exactly? Perhaps a survey
>> of
>> >> the
>> >> >> >> different lyx-doc(x) use cases that current lyx users care most
>> >> about?
>> >> >> Or
>> >> >> >> rather a definition of the simplest yet still useful use case we
>> can
>> >> >> >> imagine? If the former, I would suggest starting a page on our
>> wiki,
>> >> >> >> perhaps as a possible GSoC 2014 project, as a repository of useful
>> >> cases
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I think to start a wiki page to outline a possible GSoC 2014 project
>> >> >> would be a good idea.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> > I created a page here:
>> http://wiki.lyx.org/GSoC/GSoCProjectIdeasFor2014
>> >> > The first item on the page is "Round trip conversion between LyX and
>> >> .docx
>> >> > formats "
>> >> > I entered a minimal description of what I take is both Rainer's and
>> Ray's
>> >> > wishes.
>> >> > Could you guys expand it?
>> >>
>> >> Thanks Stefano.
>> >>
>> >> just added my ideas and my understanding[1]. Please add your ideas and
>> >> suggestions.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> > Thanks Rainer. I added a couple of desired items to your list.
>>
>> To collate the discussion, I added a ticket:
>>
>> http://www.lyx.org/trac/ticket/8745
>>
>> to record discussions there.
>>
>> Please feel free to close the ticket if this is an wrong usage of a
>> ticket.
>
>
> Thanks guys, that's a good start. At first I wasn't sure how relevant this
> would be for LyX or a summer program like GSoC, but with what you guys have
> written the idea can be adapted and defined well. I'll add on if I see
> anything else missing.

Great - now we should nurture it and see that it has grown into
something worth of getting into the GSoC next year.

Cheers,

Rainer

>
>
> --
> GPG/PGP ID: C0711BF1

-- 
Rainer M. Krug

email: RMKruggmailcom


pgpCiXbkFfBbd.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: the dreaded docx export - WAS: Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

[Ray Rashif]

On 12 June 2013 20:45, Rainer M Krug rai...@krugs.de wrote:

 stefano franchi stefano.fran...@gmail.com writes:

  On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 9:11 AM, Rainer M Krug rai...@krugs.de wrote:
 
  stefano franchi stefano.fran...@gmail.com writes:
 
   On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 2:21 AM, Rainer M Krug rai...@krugs.de
 wrote:
  
   Ray Rashif schivmeis...@gmail.com writes:
  
On 12 June 2013 03:57, stefano franchi stefano.fran...@gmail.com
   wrote:
   
   
   
   
On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 2:09 PM, Ray Rashif 
 schivmeis...@gmail.com
   wrote:
   
On 11 June 2013 14:15, Rainer M Krug rai...@krugs.de wrote:
   
I wanted to survey the LyX and LaTeX community for some opinions
 on
   this,
perhaps to get an idea as to the demand for some research into
 this
   area.
The project would do some empirical comparisons of the
 workarounds
  and
propose at most two or three solutions that work (integration
 with
   Pandoc,
or converintg directly to a simpler and well-supported language).
   
The emphasis would be on retaining as much semantic meaning as
   possible,
across different levels of complexity, starting from the very
  basic. I
   am
not aware of any similar academic or non-academic effort, but
 this
   could
also be a long blog post.
   
   
   
HI Ray,
   
I am not sure about what you're asking, exactly? Perhaps a survey
 of
  the
different lyx-doc(x) use cases that current lyx users care most
  about?
   Or
rather a definition of the simplest yet still useful use case we
 can
imagine? If the former, I would suggest starting a page on our
 wiki,
perhaps as a possible GSoC 2014 project, as a repository of useful
  cases
  
   I think to start a wiki page to outline a possible GSoC 2014 project
   would be a good idea.
  
  
   I created a page here:
 http://wiki.lyx.org/GSoC/GSoCProjectIdeasFor2014
   The first item on the page is Round trip conversion between LyX and
  .docx
   formats http://wiki.lyx.org/GSoC/GSoCProjectIdeasFor2014#toc1
   I entered a minimal description of what I take is both Rainer's and
 Ray's
   wishes.
   Could you guys expand it?
 
  Thanks Stefano.
 
  just added my ideas and my understanding[1]. Please add your ideas and
  suggestions.
 
 
 
  Thanks Rainer. I added a couple of desired items to your list.

 To collate the discussion, I added a ticket:

 http://www.lyx.org/trac/ticket/8745

 to record discussions there.

 Please feel free to close the ticket if this is an wrong usage of a
 ticket.


Thanks guys, that's a good start. At first I wasn't sure how relevant this
would be for LyX or a summer program like GSoC, but with what you guys have
written the idea can be adapted and defined well. I'll add on if I see
anything else missing.


--
GPG/PGP ID: C0711BF1

Re: the dreaded docx export - WAS: Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

[Ray Rashif]

On 12 June 2013 20:45, Rainer M Krug rai...@krugs.de wrote:

 stefano franchi stefano.fran...@gmail.com writes:

  On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 9:11 AM, Rainer M Krug rai...@krugs.de wrote:
 
  stefano franchi stefano.fran...@gmail.com writes:
 
   On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 2:21 AM, Rainer M Krug rai...@krugs.de
 wrote:
  
   Ray Rashif schivmeis...@gmail.com writes:
  
On 12 June 2013 03:57, stefano franchi stefano.fran...@gmail.com
   wrote:
   
   
   
   
On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 2:09 PM, Ray Rashif 
 schivmeis...@gmail.com
   wrote:
   
On 11 June 2013 14:15, Rainer M Krug rai...@krugs.de wrote:
   
I wanted to survey the LyX and LaTeX community for some opinions
 on
   this,
perhaps to get an idea as to the demand for some research into
 this
   area.
The project would do some empirical comparisons of the
 workarounds
  and
propose at most two or three solutions that work (integration
 with
   Pandoc,
or converintg directly to a simpler and well-supported language).
   
The emphasis would be on retaining as much semantic meaning as
   possible,
across different levels of complexity, starting from the very
  basic. I
   am
not aware of any similar academic or non-academic effort, but
 this
   could
also be a long blog post.
   
   
   
HI Ray,
   
I am not sure about what you're asking, exactly? Perhaps a survey
 of
  the
different lyx-doc(x) use cases that current lyx users care most
  about?
   Or
rather a definition of the simplest yet still useful use case we
 can
imagine? If the former, I would suggest starting a page on our
 wiki,
perhaps as a possible GSoC 2014 project, as a repository of useful
  cases
  
   I think to start a wiki page to outline a possible GSoC 2014 project
   would be a good idea.
  
  
   I created a page here:
 http://wiki.lyx.org/GSoC/GSoCProjectIdeasFor2014
   The first item on the page is Round trip conversion between LyX and
  .docx
   formats http://wiki.lyx.org/GSoC/GSoCProjectIdeasFor2014#toc1
   I entered a minimal description of what I take is both Rainer's and
 Ray's
   wishes.
   Could you guys expand it?
 
  Thanks Stefano.
 
  just added my ideas and my understanding[1]. Please add your ideas and
  suggestions.
 
 
 
  Thanks Rainer. I added a couple of desired items to your list.

 To collate the discussion, I added a ticket:

 http://www.lyx.org/trac/ticket/8745

 to record discussions there.

 Please feel free to close the ticket if this is an wrong usage of a
 ticket.


Thanks guys, that's a good start. At first I wasn't sure how relevant this
would be for LyX or a summer program like GSoC, but with what you guys have
written the idea can be adapted and defined well. I'll add on if I see
anything else missing.


--
GPG/PGP ID: C0711BF1

Re: the dreaded docx export - WAS: Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

[Ray Rashif]

On 12 June 2013 20:45, Rainer M Krug  wrote:

> stefano franchi  writes:
>
> > On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 9:11 AM, Rainer M Krug  wrote:
> >
> >> stefano franchi  writes:
> >>
> >> > On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 2:21 AM, Rainer M Krug 
> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Ray Rashif  writes:
> >> >>
> >> >> > On 12 June 2013 03:57, stefano franchi 
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 2:09 PM, Ray Rashif <
> schivmeis...@gmail.com
> >> >> >wrote:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>> On 11 June 2013 14:15, Rainer M Krug  wrote:
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> I wanted to survey the LyX and LaTeX community for some opinions
> on
> >> >> this,
> >> >> >>> perhaps to get an idea as to the demand for some research into
> this
> >> >> area.
> >> >> >>> The project would do some empirical comparisons of the
> workarounds
> >> and
> >> >> >>> propose at most two or three solutions that work (integration
> with
> >> >> Pandoc,
> >> >> >>> or converintg directly to a simpler and well-supported language).
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> The emphasis would be on retaining as much semantic meaning as
> >> >> possible,
> >> >> >>> across different levels of complexity, starting from the very
> >> basic. I
> >> >> am
> >> >> >>> not aware of any similar academic or non-academic effort, but
> this
> >> >> could
> >> >> >>> also be a long blog post.
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> HI Ray,
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> I am not sure about what you're asking, exactly? Perhaps a survey
> of
> >> the
> >> >> >> different lyx-doc(x) use cases that current lyx users care most
> >> about?
> >> >> Or
> >> >> >> rather a definition of the simplest yet still useful use case we
> can
> >> >> >> imagine? If the former, I would suggest starting a page on our
> wiki,
> >> >> >> perhaps as a possible GSoC 2014 project, as a repository of useful
> >> cases
> >> >>
> >> >> I think to start a wiki page to outline a possible GSoC 2014 project
> >> >> would be a good idea.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> > I created a page here:
> http://wiki.lyx.org/GSoC/GSoCProjectIdeasFor2014
> >> > The first item on the page is "Round trip conversion between LyX and
> >> .docx
> >> > formats "
> >> > I entered a minimal description of what I take is both Rainer's and
> Ray's
> >> > wishes.
> >> > Could you guys expand it?
> >>
> >> Thanks Stefano.
> >>
> >> just added my ideas and my understanding[1]. Please add your ideas and
> >> suggestions.
> >>
> >>
> >
> > Thanks Rainer. I added a couple of desired items to your list.
>
> To collate the discussion, I added a ticket:
>
> http://www.lyx.org/trac/ticket/8745
>
> to record discussions there.
>
> Please feel free to close the ticket if this is an wrong usage of a
> ticket.


Thanks guys, that's a good start. At first I wasn't sure how relevant this
would be for LyX or a summer program like GSoC, but with what you guys have
written the idea can be adapted and defined well. I'll add on if I see
anything else missing.


--
GPG/PGP ID: C0711BF1

Re: the dreaded docx export - WAS: Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

[Rainer M Krug]

Ray Rashif schivmeis...@gmail.com writes:

 On 12 June 2013 03:57, stefano franchi stefano.fran...@gmail.com wrote:




 On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 2:09 PM, Ray Rashif schivmeis...@gmail.comwrote:

 On 11 June 2013 14:15, Rainer M Krug rai...@krugs.de wrote:

 I wanted to survey the LyX and LaTeX community for some opinions on this,
 perhaps to get an idea as to the demand for some research into this area.
 The project would do some empirical comparisons of the workarounds and
 propose at most two or three solutions that work (integration with Pandoc,
 or converintg directly to a simpler and well-supported language).

 The emphasis would be on retaining as much semantic meaning as possible,
 across different levels of complexity, starting from the very basic. I am
 not aware of any similar academic or non-academic effort, but this could
 also be a long blog post.



 HI Ray,

 I am not sure about what you're asking, exactly? Perhaps a survey of the
 different lyx-doc(x) use cases that current lyx users care most about? Or
 rather a definition of the simplest yet still useful use case we can
 imagine? If the former, I would suggest starting a page on our wiki,
 perhaps as a possible GSoC 2014 project, as a repository of useful cases

I think to start a wiki page to outline a possible GSoC 2014 project
would be a good idea.

 people could refer to. If the latter...well I'd need further info because
 I'm not really sure what you're aiming for.


 Hey Stefano

 Sorry for the lack of clarity there -- probably a mistake of dumping one or
 two things I had on my mind without context. I was referring to
 cross-platform document interoperability for collaborative writing and
 editing, not really LyX-specific but very much related, and not really a
 new issue.

 If there are people indeed affected by this, and they would like some
 documentation, then I'd like to put in some time to review current issues
 and strategies, and produce working code to convert a non-friendly format
 into a pluggable one (into LyX, LaTeX, Pandoc) for _only_ the use cases
 that matter most (according to the target audience; writers, editors,
 fiction or non-fiction).

Certainly I would be interested in having this info, as I am again have
to compile documents together with word users - and a collection of
strategies how to handle this would be very much welcome.


 Often times I have found myself dealing with only a subset of formatting
 tools during the first phase of a write-up, in most cases a draft, and I
 would often make the mistake of thinking they're simple enough to not break
 collaboration. I would assume many of our workflows start with sections,
 followed by emphasis (boldface and italics), then simple lists (itemized
 and enumerated), footnotes, and finally citations.


This boils down to what I discussed during the thread of LaTeX roundtrip
(unfortunately, I don't have it at hand, but can search if yu can't find
it): having one subset of features for roundtrips to other formats which
are supported. This should be done in a way, so that they can easiliy be
extended, and the general framework (definition and identification of
features supported) should be independent of the other partner in the
roundtrip (docx, latex, odt, ...). In addition, metadata about
non-converted features could be stored, and re-applied / added on the
re-import of the roundtrip.

Furthermore, there should also be an exporter to he format, which tries
to export the document as accurate as possible, but not usable for roundtrips.



 Personally I have never needed anything more complex like cross-references,
 tables and images -- I always schedule them for later phases because they
 interrupt the workflow, although I do make space for them informally (using
 characters I can easily search for). At the end of the day, what I have to
 deal with is a DOC or DOCX file with semantic comments (that are not
 understood by most other tools), no matter where or how I start.

Exactly - that is what is needed for the roundtrip. 

Cheers,

Rainer



 == TL;DR ==
 What I'd like is to solve for the missing input formats in e.g. Pandoc. It
 does not support RTF, DOC, or DOCX, but supports HTML, which Word does not
 output cleanly. Either way, it's something I have had in my mind for some
 time, but too busy to investigate or ask around methodically. Getting an
 idea of the demand for a solution in this case could force me to invest the
 time.

 Inspiration: http://gio.act.gov.au/2013/03/13/document-conversion-markdown/


 --
 GPG/PGP ID: C0711BF1


-- 
Rainer M. Krug, PhD (Conservation Ecology, SUN), MSc (Conservation Biology, 
UCT), Dipl. Phys. (Germany)

Centre of Excellence for Invasion Biology
Stellenbosch University
South Africa

Tel :   +33 - (0)9 53 10 27 44
Cell:   +33 - (0)6 85 62 59 98
Fax :   +33 - (0)9 58 10 27 44

Fax (D):+49 - (0)3 21 21 25 22 44

email:  rai...@krugs.de

Skype:  RMkrug

Re: Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

[Liviu Andronic]

On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 1:55 AM, Stephen George
steve_...@optusnet.com.au wrote:
 On 12/06/2013 1:02 AM, Dr Eberhard Lisse wrote:

 of course he's right, but then he can google what DILLIGAF stands
 for :-)-O

 No he can't, with comments like
 open source programs have great appeal for people who want to tinker with
 computers but almost none for those who actually want to do something.

 He would not be able to use Google as it is running open source programs,
 and he wouldn't use it as it's against his principles.
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_platform
 Servers are commodity-class x86 PCs running customized versions of Linux.

 Further to that, finding a book with good amazon ranking would also be
 useless, as Amazon is also running open source, so he also would NOT use
 that service.
 http://news.cnet.com/2100-1001-275155.html

 In fact he probably doesn't do much web surfing with the open source Apache
 dominating the HTTP internet server market
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apache_HTTP_Server
 Since April 1996 Apache has been the most popular HTTP server software in
 use. As of December 2012 Apache was estimated to serve 63.7% of all active
 websites and 58.49% of the top servers across all domains

 There is a big chance the writers forum were he made those comments is also
 powered by an open source program.

Not to mention that he is probably surfing the web via Firefox or Chrome.

Liviu


 Sorry for the outburst, I just can't believe how polarised some people are
 against open source programs.
 Personally I dont think you should feed him with fuel, just let it drop and
 continue on with your own life using the programs you enjoy, I dont think
 you have anything to prove. (but I do understand the sense of outrage after
 hearing the comments)

 Steve




-- 
Do you know how to read?
http://www.alienetworks.com/srtest.cfm
http://goodies.xfce.org/projects/applications/xfce4-dict#speed-reader
Do you know how to write?
http://garbl.home.comcast.net/~garbl/stylemanual/e.htm#e-mail

Re: Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

[Jan Ulrich Hasecke]

It is flattering to say, hey John Doe the great novelist is using LyX,
but much more important is another question.

Is LyX the right tool for a publisher who wants to publish printed books
and ebooks from the same source, which is what publishers want to do
today. At least this is what I want to do. ;-)

While there is no question concerning the typesetting quality of
LyX/LaTeX, I still have questions concerning ebooks. I listed them in
another thread.
http://www.mail-archive.com/lyx-users@lists.lyx.org/msg95701.html

You can write a bestseller with a pencil or with vim/emacs. LyX could be
a publishing environment producing high quality pdfs and ePubs ready for
distribution. Our target group are not authors (have a look at
Scrivener[1] to see what a program looks like that targets authors) but
publishers.

Cheers!
juh

[1] http://www.literatureandlatte.com/scrivener.php


-- 
Demeter and the Commons of Being
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00BGPS26W
Speculative essay against loss of ancestry and the arrogation of property

Re: Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

[Liviu Andronic]

On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 10:09 AM, Jan Ulrich Hasecke
juhase...@googlemail.com wrote:
 You can write a bestseller with a pencil or with vim/emacs. LyX could be
 a publishing environment producing high quality pdfs and ePubs ready for
 distribution. Our target group are not authors (have a look at
 Scrivener[1] to see what a program looks like that targets authors) but
 publishers.

This is the goal of one of our GSoC projects this year:
http://wiki.lyx.org/GSoC/NonLinearWriting and
http://wiki.lyx.org/Devel/SummerOfCode2013Ideas#toc5 .

Liviu

Re: Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

[Jan Ulrich Hasecke]

Am 12.06.2013 10:59, schrieb Liviu Andronic:
 On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 10:09 AM, Jan Ulrich Hasecke
 juhase...@googlemail.com wrote:
 You can write a bestseller with a pencil or with vim/emacs. LyX could be
 a publishing environment producing high quality pdfs and ePubs ready for
 distribution. Our target group are not authors (have a look at
 Scrivener[1] to see what a program looks like that targets authors) but
 publishers.

 This is the goal of one of our GSoC projects this year:
 http://wiki.lyx.org/GSoC/NonLinearWriting and
 http://wiki.lyx.org/Devel/SummerOfCode2013Ideas#toc5 .

Great news! There is als AFAIK a GSoC project for better ePub support.
So my dreams might come true soon.

Thanks!
juh

Re: Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

[Murat Yildizoglu]

Isn't there already a working corkboard tool for Lyx (but I have never been
able to test it), by Rob?


2013/6/12 Liviu Andronic landronim...@gmail.com

 On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 10:09 AM, Jan Ulrich Hasecke
 juhase...@googlemail.com wrote:
  You can write a bestseller with a pencil or with vim/emacs. LyX could be
  a publishing environment producing high quality pdfs and ePubs ready for
  distribution. Our target group are not authors (have a look at
  Scrivener[1] to see what a program looks like that targets authors) but
  publishers.
 
 This is the goal of one of our GSoC projects this year:
 http://wiki.lyx.org/GSoC/NonLinearWriting and
 http://wiki.lyx.org/Devel/SummerOfCode2013Ideas#toc5 .

 Liviu




-- 
Prof. Murat Yildizoglu

Université Montesquieu Bordeaux IV
GREThA (UMR CNRS 5113)
Avenue Léon Duguit
33608 Pessac cedex
France

Bureau : E-331

yildi-at-u-bordeaux4.fr

web: yildizoglu.info

Re: Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

[Liviu Andronic]

On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 11:15 AM, Murat Yildizoglu myi...@gmail.com wrote:
 Isn't there already a working corkboard tool for Lyx (but I have never been
 able to test it), by Rob?

Yes, but it has never made its way to trunk. To my understanding the
goal of the GSoC project is to polish the outliner/corkboard code,
implement the missing bits and when ready merge with current trunk.

Liviu



 2013/6/12 Liviu Andronic landronim...@gmail.com

 On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 10:09 AM, Jan Ulrich Hasecke
 juhase...@googlemail.com wrote:
  You can write a bestseller with a pencil or with vim/emacs. LyX could be
  a publishing environment producing high quality pdfs and ePubs ready for
  distribution. Our target group are not authors (have a look at
  Scrivener[1] to see what a program looks like that targets authors) but
  publishers.
 
 This is the goal of one of our GSoC projects this year:
 http://wiki.lyx.org/GSoC/NonLinearWriting and
 http://wiki.lyx.org/Devel/SummerOfCode2013Ideas#toc5 .

 Liviu




 --
 Prof. Murat Yildizoglu

 Université Montesquieu Bordeaux IV
 GREThA (UMR CNRS 5113)
 Avenue Léon Duguit
 33608 Pessac cedex
 France

 Bureau : E-331

 yildi-at-u-bordeaux4.fr

 web: yildizoglu.info



-- 
Do you know how to read?
http://www.alienetworks.com/srtest.cfm
http://goodies.xfce.org/projects/applications/xfce4-dict#speed-reader
Do you know how to write?
http://garbl.home.comcast.net/~garbl/stylemanual/e.htm#e-mail

Re: the dreaded docx export - WAS: Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

[stefano franchi]

On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 2:21 AM, Rainer M Krug rai...@krugs.de wrote:

 Ray Rashif schivmeis...@gmail.com writes:

  On 12 June 2013 03:57, stefano franchi stefano.fran...@gmail.com
 wrote:
 
 
 
 
  On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 2:09 PM, Ray Rashif schivmeis...@gmail.com
 wrote:
 
  On 11 June 2013 14:15, Rainer M Krug rai...@krugs.de wrote:
 
  I wanted to survey the LyX and LaTeX community for some opinions on
 this,
  perhaps to get an idea as to the demand for some research into this
 area.
  The project would do some empirical comparisons of the workarounds and
  propose at most two or three solutions that work (integration with
 Pandoc,
  or converintg directly to a simpler and well-supported language).
 
  The emphasis would be on retaining as much semantic meaning as
 possible,
  across different levels of complexity, starting from the very basic. I
 am
  not aware of any similar academic or non-academic effort, but this
 could
  also be a long blog post.
 
 
 
  HI Ray,
 
  I am not sure about what you're asking, exactly? Perhaps a survey of the
  different lyx-doc(x) use cases that current lyx users care most about?
 Or
  rather a definition of the simplest yet still useful use case we can
  imagine? If the former, I would suggest starting a page on our wiki,
  perhaps as a possible GSoC 2014 project, as a repository of useful cases

 I think to start a wiki page to outline a possible GSoC 2014 project
 would be a good idea.


I created a page here: http://wiki.lyx.org/GSoC/GSoCProjectIdeasFor2014
The first item on the page is Round trip conversion between LyX and .docx
formats http://wiki.lyx.org/GSoC/GSoCProjectIdeasFor2014#toc1
I entered a minimal description of what I take is both Rainer's and Ray's
wishes.
Could you guys expand it?


Cheers,

Stefano
-- 
__
Stefano Franchi
Associate Research Professor
Department of Hispanic StudiesPh:   +1 (979) 845-2125
Texas AM University  Fax:  +1 (979) 845-6421
College Station, Texas, USA

stef...@tamu.edu
http://stefano.cleinias.org

Re: Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

[Steve Litt]

On Wed, 12 Jun 2013 10:59:00 +0200
Liviu Andronic landronim...@gmail.com wrote:

 This is the goal of one of our GSoC projects this year:
 http://wiki.lyx.org/GSoC/NonLinearWriting and

Please tell the person doing the NonLinearWriting project that if he
needs to talk with an author of Discovery Fiction, he should feel free
to email me at my normal email address.

I could describe down to the smallest detail how I write nonfiction.
With fiction, all I can tell you is I get a general idea, do a lot of
walking and thinking, and on a hope and a prayer start writing, and
somehow the book gets written. That's really not much of an explanation
for a guy who is a champion of process and claims everyone should know
*how* they do things. Maybe he can learn from me, and maybe I can learn
from him.

Thanks,

SteveT

Steve Litt*  http://www.troubleshooters.com/
Troubleshooting Training  *  Human Performance

Re: the dreaded docx export - WAS: Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

[stefano franchi]

On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 9:11 AM, Rainer M Krug rai...@krugs.de wrote:

 stefano franchi stefano.fran...@gmail.com writes:

  On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 2:21 AM, Rainer M Krug rai...@krugs.de wrote:
 
  Ray Rashif schivmeis...@gmail.com writes:
 
   On 12 June 2013 03:57, stefano franchi stefano.fran...@gmail.com
  wrote:
  
  
  
  
   On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 2:09 PM, Ray Rashif schivmeis...@gmail.com
  wrote:
  
   On 11 June 2013 14:15, Rainer M Krug rai...@krugs.de wrote:
  
   I wanted to survey the LyX and LaTeX community for some opinions on
  this,
   perhaps to get an idea as to the demand for some research into this
  area.
   The project would do some empirical comparisons of the workarounds
 and
   propose at most two or three solutions that work (integration with
  Pandoc,
   or converintg directly to a simpler and well-supported language).
  
   The emphasis would be on retaining as much semantic meaning as
  possible,
   across different levels of complexity, starting from the very
 basic. I
  am
   not aware of any similar academic or non-academic effort, but this
  could
   also be a long blog post.
  
  
  
   HI Ray,
  
   I am not sure about what you're asking, exactly? Perhaps a survey of
 the
   different lyx-doc(x) use cases that current lyx users care most
 about?
  Or
   rather a definition of the simplest yet still useful use case we can
   imagine? If the former, I would suggest starting a page on our wiki,
   perhaps as a possible GSoC 2014 project, as a repository of useful
 cases
 
  I think to start a wiki page to outline a possible GSoC 2014 project
  would be a good idea.
 
 
  I created a page here: http://wiki.lyx.org/GSoC/GSoCProjectIdeasFor2014
  The first item on the page is Round trip conversion between LyX and
 .docx
  formats http://wiki.lyx.org/GSoC/GSoCProjectIdeasFor2014#toc1
  I entered a minimal description of what I take is both Rainer's and Ray's
  wishes.
  Could you guys expand it?

 Thanks Stefano.

 just added my ideas and my understanding[1]. Please add your ideas and
 suggestions.



Thanks Rainer. I added a couple of desired items to your list.


Cheers,

Stefano
-- 
__
Stefano Franchi
Associate Research Professor
Department of Hispanic StudiesPh:   +1 (979) 845-2125
Texas AM University  Fax:  +1 (979) 845-6421
College Station, Texas, USA

stef...@tamu.edu
http://stefano.cleinias.org

Re: the dreaded docx export - WAS: Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

[Rainer M Krug]

stefano franchi stefano.fran...@gmail.com writes:

 On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 2:21 AM, Rainer M Krug rai...@krugs.de wrote:

 Ray Rashif schivmeis...@gmail.com writes:

  On 12 June 2013 03:57, stefano franchi stefano.fran...@gmail.com
 wrote:
 
 
 
 
  On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 2:09 PM, Ray Rashif schivmeis...@gmail.com
 wrote:
 
  On 11 June 2013 14:15, Rainer M Krug rai...@krugs.de wrote:
 
  I wanted to survey the LyX and LaTeX community for some opinions on
 this,
  perhaps to get an idea as to the demand for some research into this
 area.
  The project would do some empirical comparisons of the workarounds and
  propose at most two or three solutions that work (integration with
 Pandoc,
  or converintg directly to a simpler and well-supported language).
 
  The emphasis would be on retaining as much semantic meaning as
 possible,
  across different levels of complexity, starting from the very basic. I
 am
  not aware of any similar academic or non-academic effort, but this
 could
  also be a long blog post.
 
 
 
  HI Ray,
 
  I am not sure about what you're asking, exactly? Perhaps a survey of the
  different lyx-doc(x) use cases that current lyx users care most about?
 Or
  rather a definition of the simplest yet still useful use case we can
  imagine? If the former, I would suggest starting a page on our wiki,
  perhaps as a possible GSoC 2014 project, as a repository of useful cases

 I think to start a wiki page to outline a possible GSoC 2014 project
 would be a good idea.


 I created a page here: http://wiki.lyx.org/GSoC/GSoCProjectIdeasFor2014
 The first item on the page is Round trip conversion between LyX and .docx
 formats http://wiki.lyx.org/GSoC/GSoCProjectIdeasFor2014#toc1
 I entered a minimal description of what I take is both Rainer's and Ray's
 wishes.
 Could you guys expand it?

Thanks Stefano.

just added my ideas and my understanding[1]. Please add your ideas and
suggestions.

Cheers,

Rainer



 Cheers,

 Stefano



Footnotes: 
[1]  http://wiki.lyx.org/GSoC/GSoCProjectIdeasFor2014#toc1

-- 
Rainer M. Krug

email: RMKrugatgmaildotcom


pgpKPBRU7QomE.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: the dreaded docx export - WAS: Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

[Rainer M Krug]

stefano franchi stefano.fran...@gmail.com writes:

 On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 9:11 AM, Rainer M Krug rai...@krugs.de wrote:

 stefano franchi stefano.fran...@gmail.com writes:

  On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 2:21 AM, Rainer M Krug rai...@krugs.de wrote:
 
  Ray Rashif schivmeis...@gmail.com writes:
 
   On 12 June 2013 03:57, stefano franchi stefano.fran...@gmail.com
  wrote:
  
  
  
  
   On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 2:09 PM, Ray Rashif schivmeis...@gmail.com
  wrote:
  
   On 11 June 2013 14:15, Rainer M Krug rai...@krugs.de wrote:
  
   I wanted to survey the LyX and LaTeX community for some opinions on
  this,
   perhaps to get an idea as to the demand for some research into this
  area.
   The project would do some empirical comparisons of the workarounds
 and
   propose at most two or three solutions that work (integration with
  Pandoc,
   or converintg directly to a simpler and well-supported language).
  
   The emphasis would be on retaining as much semantic meaning as
  possible,
   across different levels of complexity, starting from the very
 basic. I
  am
   not aware of any similar academic or non-academic effort, but this
  could
   also be a long blog post.
  
  
  
   HI Ray,
  
   I am not sure about what you're asking, exactly? Perhaps a survey of
 the
   different lyx-doc(x) use cases that current lyx users care most
 about?
  Or
   rather a definition of the simplest yet still useful use case we can
   imagine? If the former, I would suggest starting a page on our wiki,
   perhaps as a possible GSoC 2014 project, as a repository of useful
 cases
 
  I think to start a wiki page to outline a possible GSoC 2014 project
  would be a good idea.
 
 
  I created a page here: http://wiki.lyx.org/GSoC/GSoCProjectIdeasFor2014
  The first item on the page is Round trip conversion between LyX and
 .docx
  formats http://wiki.lyx.org/GSoC/GSoCProjectIdeasFor2014#toc1
  I entered a minimal description of what I take is both Rainer's and Ray's
  wishes.
  Could you guys expand it?

 Thanks Stefano.

 just added my ideas and my understanding[1]. Please add your ideas and
 suggestions.



 Thanks Rainer. I added a couple of desired items to your list.

To collate the discussion, I added a ticket:

http://www.lyx.org/trac/ticket/8745

to record discussions there.

Please feel free to close the ticket if this is an wrong usage of a
ticket.

Cheers,

Rainer



 Cheers,

 Stefano
#secure method=pgpmime mode=sign

-- 
Rainer M. Krug, PhD (Conservation Ecology, SUN), MSc (Conservation Biology, 
UCT), Dipl. Phys. (Germany)

Centre of Excellence for Invasion Biology
Stellenbosch University
South Africa

Tel :   +33 - (0)9 53 10 27 44
Cell:   +33 - (0)6 85 62 59 98
Fax :   +33 - (0)9 58 10 27 44

Fax (D):+49 - (0)3 21 21 25 22 44

email:  rai...@krugs.de

Skype:  RMkrug

Re: Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

[Alan L Tyree]

Liviu Andronic writes:

 On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 11:15 AM, Murat Yildizoglu myi...@gmail.com wrote:
 Isn't there already a working corkboard tool for Lyx (but I have never been
 able to test it), by Rob?

 Yes, but it has never made its way to trunk. To my understanding the
 goal of the GSoC project is to polish the outliner/corkboard code,
 implement the missing bits and when ready merge with current trunk.

 Liviu
We might also look at 'tags' for these idea fragments. Ord-mode lets the
user attach tags to headlines. You can then search by tag and organise
views by tags. It's a powerful mechanism when you have a large number of
fragments.

Adding 'non-linear' writing tools to LyX, together with good ePub
support, would make it the killer tool for writers.

Cheers,
Alan




 2013/6/12 Liviu Andronic landronim...@gmail.com

 On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 10:09 AM, Jan Ulrich Hasecke
 juhase...@googlemail.com wrote:
  You can write a bestseller with a pencil or with vim/emacs. LyX could be
  a publishing environment producing high quality pdfs and ePubs ready for
  distribution. Our target group are not authors (have a look at
  Scrivener[1] to see what a program looks like that targets authors) but
  publishers.
 
 This is the goal of one of our GSoC projects this year:
 http://wiki.lyx.org/GSoC/NonLinearWriting and
 http://wiki.lyx.org/Devel/SummerOfCode2013Ideas#toc5 .

 Liviu




 --
 Prof. Murat Yildizoglu

 Université Montesquieu Bordeaux IV
 GREThA (UMR CNRS 5113)
 Avenue Léon Duguit
 33608 Pessac cedex
 France

 Bureau : E-331

 yildi-at-u-bordeaux4.fr

 web: yildizoglu.info


-- 
Alan L Tyree   http://www2.austlii.edu.au/~alan
Tel:  04 2748 6206 sip:172...@iptel.org

Re: Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

[Wolfgang Keller]

  of course he's right, but then he can google what DILLIGAF stands
  for :-)-O

 No he can't, with comments like
 /open source programs have great appeal for people who want to
 tinker with computers but almost none for those who actually want to
 do something./
 
 He would not be able to use Google as it is running open source 
 programs, and he wouldn't use it as it's against his principles.

He couldn't use the internet reasonably altogether, since BIND is
FOSS.

And most DNS servers are also running on FOSS operating systems, btw.

And then there are FOSS database systems such as e.g. PostgreSQL
feeding those BINDs with the data they need.

Besides all those routers and switches running firmware based on various
FOSS operating systems.

Sincerely,

Wolfgang

Re: the dreaded docx export - WAS: Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

[Rainer M Krug]

Ray Rashif schivmeis...@gmail.com writes:

 On 12 June 2013 03:57, stefano franchi stefano.fran...@gmail.com wrote:




 On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 2:09 PM, Ray Rashif schivmeis...@gmail.comwrote:

 On 11 June 2013 14:15, Rainer M Krug rai...@krugs.de wrote:

 I wanted to survey the LyX and LaTeX community for some opinions on this,
 perhaps to get an idea as to the demand for some research into this area.
 The project would do some empirical comparisons of the workarounds and
 propose at most two or three solutions that work (integration with Pandoc,
 or converintg directly to a simpler and well-supported language).

 The emphasis would be on retaining as much semantic meaning as possible,
 across different levels of complexity, starting from the very basic. I am
 not aware of any similar academic or non-academic effort, but this could
 also be a long blog post.



 HI Ray,

 I am not sure about what you're asking, exactly? Perhaps a survey of the
 different lyx-doc(x) use cases that current lyx users care most about? Or
 rather a definition of the simplest yet still useful use case we can
 imagine? If the former, I would suggest starting a page on our wiki,
 perhaps as a possible GSoC 2014 project, as a repository of useful cases

I think to start a wiki page to outline a possible GSoC 2014 project
would be a good idea.

 people could refer to. If the latter...well I'd need further info because
 I'm not really sure what you're aiming for.


 Hey Stefano

 Sorry for the lack of clarity there -- probably a mistake of dumping one or
 two things I had on my mind without context. I was referring to
 cross-platform document interoperability for collaborative writing and
 editing, not really LyX-specific but very much related, and not really a
 new issue.

 If there are people indeed affected by this, and they would like some
 documentation, then I'd like to put in some time to review current issues
 and strategies, and produce working code to convert a non-friendly format
 into a pluggable one (into LyX, LaTeX, Pandoc) for _only_ the use cases
 that matter most (according to the target audience; writers, editors,
 fiction or non-fiction).

Certainly I would be interested in having this info, as I am again have
to compile documents together with word users - and a collection of
strategies how to handle this would be very much welcome.


 Often times I have found myself dealing with only a subset of formatting
 tools during the first phase of a write-up, in most cases a draft, and I
 would often make the mistake of thinking they're simple enough to not break
 collaboration. I would assume many of our workflows start with sections,
 followed by emphasis (boldface and italics), then simple lists (itemized
 and enumerated), footnotes, and finally citations.


This boils down to what I discussed during the thread of LaTeX roundtrip
(unfortunately, I don't have it at hand, but can search if yu can't find
it): having one subset of features for roundtrips to other formats which
are supported. This should be done in a way, so that they can easiliy be
extended, and the general framework (definition and identification of
features supported) should be independent of the other partner in the
roundtrip (docx, latex, odt, ...). In addition, metadata about
non-converted features could be stored, and re-applied / added on the
re-import of the roundtrip.

Furthermore, there should also be an exporter to he format, which tries
to export the document as accurate as possible, but not usable for roundtrips.



 Personally I have never needed anything more complex like cross-references,
 tables and images -- I always schedule them for later phases because they
 interrupt the workflow, although I do make space for them informally (using
 characters I can easily search for). At the end of the day, what I have to
 deal with is a DOC or DOCX file with semantic comments (that are not
 understood by most other tools), no matter where or how I start.

Exactly - that is what is needed for the roundtrip. 

Cheers,

Rainer



 == TL;DR ==
 What I'd like is to solve for the missing input formats in e.g. Pandoc. It
 does not support RTF, DOC, or DOCX, but supports HTML, which Word does not
 output cleanly. Either way, it's something I have had in my mind for some
 time, but too busy to investigate or ask around methodically. Getting an
 idea of the demand for a solution in this case could force me to invest the
 time.

 Inspiration: http://gio.act.gov.au/2013/03/13/document-conversion-markdown/


 --
 GPG/PGP ID: C0711BF1


-- 
Rainer M. Krug, PhD (Conservation Ecology, SUN), MSc (Conservation Biology, 
UCT), Dipl. Phys. (Germany)

Centre of Excellence for Invasion Biology
Stellenbosch University
South Africa

Tel :   +33 - (0)9 53 10 27 44
Cell:   +33 - (0)6 85 62 59 98
Fax :   +33 - (0)9 58 10 27 44

Fax (D):+49 - (0)3 21 21 25 22 44

email:  rai...@krugs.de

Skype:  RMkrug

Re: Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

[Liviu Andronic]

On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 1:55 AM, Stephen George
steve_...@optusnet.com.au wrote:
 On 12/06/2013 1:02 AM, Dr Eberhard Lisse wrote:

 of course he's right, but then he can google what DILLIGAF stands
 for :-)-O

 No he can't, with comments like
 open source programs have great appeal for people who want to tinker with
 computers but almost none for those who actually want to do something.

 He would not be able to use Google as it is running open source programs,
 and he wouldn't use it as it's against his principles.
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_platform
 Servers are commodity-class x86 PCs running customized versions of Linux.

 Further to that, finding a book with good amazon ranking would also be
 useless, as Amazon is also running open source, so he also would NOT use
 that service.
 http://news.cnet.com/2100-1001-275155.html

 In fact he probably doesn't do much web surfing with the open source Apache
 dominating the HTTP internet server market
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apache_HTTP_Server
 Since April 1996 Apache has been the most popular HTTP server software in
 use. As of December 2012 Apache was estimated to serve 63.7% of all active
 websites and 58.49% of the top servers across all domains

 There is a big chance the writers forum were he made those comments is also
 powered by an open source program.

Not to mention that he is probably surfing the web via Firefox or Chrome.

Liviu


 Sorry for the outburst, I just can't believe how polarised some people are
 against open source programs.
 Personally I dont think you should feed him with fuel, just let it drop and
 continue on with your own life using the programs you enjoy, I dont think
 you have anything to prove. (but I do understand the sense of outrage after
 hearing the comments)

 Steve




-- 
Do you know how to read?
http://www.alienetworks.com/srtest.cfm
http://goodies.xfce.org/projects/applications/xfce4-dict#speed-reader
Do you know how to write?
http://garbl.home.comcast.net/~garbl/stylemanual/e.htm#e-mail

Re: Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

[Jan Ulrich Hasecke]

It is flattering to say, hey John Doe the great novelist is using LyX,
but much more important is another question.

Is LyX the right tool for a publisher who wants to publish printed books
and ebooks from the same source, which is what publishers want to do
today. At least this is what I want to do. ;-)

While there is no question concerning the typesetting quality of
LyX/LaTeX, I still have questions concerning ebooks. I listed them in
another thread.
http://www.mail-archive.com/lyx-users@lists.lyx.org/msg95701.html

You can write a bestseller with a pencil or with vim/emacs. LyX could be
a publishing environment producing high quality pdfs and ePubs ready for
distribution. Our target group are not authors (have a look at
Scrivener[1] to see what a program looks like that targets authors) but
publishers.

Cheers!
juh

[1] http://www.literatureandlatte.com/scrivener.php


-- 
Demeter and the Commons of Being
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00BGPS26W
Speculative essay against loss of ancestry and the arrogation of property

Re: Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

[Liviu Andronic]

On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 10:09 AM, Jan Ulrich Hasecke
juhase...@googlemail.com wrote:
 You can write a bestseller with a pencil or with vim/emacs. LyX could be
 a publishing environment producing high quality pdfs and ePubs ready for
 distribution. Our target group are not authors (have a look at
 Scrivener[1] to see what a program looks like that targets authors) but
 publishers.

This is the goal of one of our GSoC projects this year:
http://wiki.lyx.org/GSoC/NonLinearWriting and
http://wiki.lyx.org/Devel/SummerOfCode2013Ideas#toc5 .

Liviu

Re: Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

[Jan Ulrich Hasecke]

Am 12.06.2013 10:59, schrieb Liviu Andronic:
 On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 10:09 AM, Jan Ulrich Hasecke
 juhase...@googlemail.com wrote:
 You can write a bestseller with a pencil or with vim/emacs. LyX could be
 a publishing environment producing high quality pdfs and ePubs ready for
 distribution. Our target group are not authors (have a look at
 Scrivener[1] to see what a program looks like that targets authors) but
 publishers.

 This is the goal of one of our GSoC projects this year:
 http://wiki.lyx.org/GSoC/NonLinearWriting and
 http://wiki.lyx.org/Devel/SummerOfCode2013Ideas#toc5 .

Great news! There is als AFAIK a GSoC project for better ePub support.
So my dreams might come true soon.

Thanks!
juh

Re: Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

[Murat Yildizoglu]

Isn't there already a working corkboard tool for Lyx (but I have never been
able to test it), by Rob?


2013/6/12 Liviu Andronic landronim...@gmail.com

 On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 10:09 AM, Jan Ulrich Hasecke
 juhase...@googlemail.com wrote:
  You can write a bestseller with a pencil or with vim/emacs. LyX could be
  a publishing environment producing high quality pdfs and ePubs ready for
  distribution. Our target group are not authors (have a look at
  Scrivener[1] to see what a program looks like that targets authors) but
  publishers.
 
 This is the goal of one of our GSoC projects this year:
 http://wiki.lyx.org/GSoC/NonLinearWriting and
 http://wiki.lyx.org/Devel/SummerOfCode2013Ideas#toc5 .

 Liviu




-- 
Prof. Murat Yildizoglu

Université Montesquieu Bordeaux IV
GREThA (UMR CNRS 5113)
Avenue Léon Duguit
33608 Pessac cedex
France

Bureau : E-331

yildi-at-u-bordeaux4.fr

web: yildizoglu.info

Re: Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

[Liviu Andronic]

On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 11:15 AM, Murat Yildizoglu myi...@gmail.com wrote:
 Isn't there already a working corkboard tool for Lyx (but I have never been
 able to test it), by Rob?

Yes, but it has never made its way to trunk. To my understanding the
goal of the GSoC project is to polish the outliner/corkboard code,
implement the missing bits and when ready merge with current trunk.

Liviu



 2013/6/12 Liviu Andronic landronim...@gmail.com

 On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 10:09 AM, Jan Ulrich Hasecke
 juhase...@googlemail.com wrote:
  You can write a bestseller with a pencil or with vim/emacs. LyX could be
  a publishing environment producing high quality pdfs and ePubs ready for
  distribution. Our target group are not authors (have a look at
  Scrivener[1] to see what a program looks like that targets authors) but
  publishers.
 
 This is the goal of one of our GSoC projects this year:
 http://wiki.lyx.org/GSoC/NonLinearWriting and
 http://wiki.lyx.org/Devel/SummerOfCode2013Ideas#toc5 .

 Liviu




 --
 Prof. Murat Yildizoglu

 Université Montesquieu Bordeaux IV
 GREThA (UMR CNRS 5113)
 Avenue Léon Duguit
 33608 Pessac cedex
 France

 Bureau : E-331

 yildi-at-u-bordeaux4.fr

 web: yildizoglu.info



-- 
Do you know how to read?
http://www.alienetworks.com/srtest.cfm
http://goodies.xfce.org/projects/applications/xfce4-dict#speed-reader
Do you know how to write?
http://garbl.home.comcast.net/~garbl/stylemanual/e.htm#e-mail

Re: the dreaded docx export - WAS: Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

[stefano franchi]

On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 2:21 AM, Rainer M Krug rai...@krugs.de wrote:

 Ray Rashif schivmeis...@gmail.com writes:

  On 12 June 2013 03:57, stefano franchi stefano.fran...@gmail.com
 wrote:
 
 
 
 
  On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 2:09 PM, Ray Rashif schivmeis...@gmail.com
 wrote:
 
  On 11 June 2013 14:15, Rainer M Krug rai...@krugs.de wrote:
 
  I wanted to survey the LyX and LaTeX community for some opinions on
 this,
  perhaps to get an idea as to the demand for some research into this
 area.
  The project would do some empirical comparisons of the workarounds and
  propose at most two or three solutions that work (integration with
 Pandoc,
  or converintg directly to a simpler and well-supported language).
 
  The emphasis would be on retaining as much semantic meaning as
 possible,
  across different levels of complexity, starting from the very basic. I
 am
  not aware of any similar academic or non-academic effort, but this
 could
  also be a long blog post.
 
 
 
  HI Ray,
 
  I am not sure about what you're asking, exactly? Perhaps a survey of the
  different lyx-doc(x) use cases that current lyx users care most about?
 Or
  rather a definition of the simplest yet still useful use case we can
  imagine? If the former, I would suggest starting a page on our wiki,
  perhaps as a possible GSoC 2014 project, as a repository of useful cases

 I think to start a wiki page to outline a possible GSoC 2014 project
 would be a good idea.


I created a page here: http://wiki.lyx.org/GSoC/GSoCProjectIdeasFor2014
The first item on the page is Round trip conversion between LyX and .docx
formats http://wiki.lyx.org/GSoC/GSoCProjectIdeasFor2014#toc1
I entered a minimal description of what I take is both Rainer's and Ray's
wishes.
Could you guys expand it?


Cheers,

Stefano
-- 
__
Stefano Franchi
Associate Research Professor
Department of Hispanic StudiesPh:   +1 (979) 845-2125
Texas AM University  Fax:  +1 (979) 845-6421
College Station, Texas, USA

stef...@tamu.edu
http://stefano.cleinias.org

Re: Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

[Steve Litt]

On Wed, 12 Jun 2013 10:59:00 +0200
Liviu Andronic landronim...@gmail.com wrote:

 This is the goal of one of our GSoC projects this year:
 http://wiki.lyx.org/GSoC/NonLinearWriting and

Please tell the person doing the NonLinearWriting project that if he
needs to talk with an author of Discovery Fiction, he should feel free
to email me at my normal email address.

I could describe down to the smallest detail how I write nonfiction.
With fiction, all I can tell you is I get a general idea, do a lot of
walking and thinking, and on a hope and a prayer start writing, and
somehow the book gets written. That's really not much of an explanation
for a guy who is a champion of process and claims everyone should know
*how* they do things. Maybe he can learn from me, and maybe I can learn
from him.

Thanks,

SteveT

Steve Litt*  http://www.troubleshooters.com/
Troubleshooting Training  *  Human Performance

Re: the dreaded docx export - WAS: Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

[stefano franchi]

On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 9:11 AM, Rainer M Krug rai...@krugs.de wrote:

 stefano franchi stefano.fran...@gmail.com writes:

  On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 2:21 AM, Rainer M Krug rai...@krugs.de wrote:
 
  Ray Rashif schivmeis...@gmail.com writes:
 
   On 12 June 2013 03:57, stefano franchi stefano.fran...@gmail.com
  wrote:
  
  
  
  
   On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 2:09 PM, Ray Rashif schivmeis...@gmail.com
  wrote:
  
   On 11 June 2013 14:15, Rainer M Krug rai...@krugs.de wrote:
  
   I wanted to survey the LyX and LaTeX community for some opinions on
  this,
   perhaps to get an idea as to the demand for some research into this
  area.
   The project would do some empirical comparisons of the workarounds
 and
   propose at most two or three solutions that work (integration with
  Pandoc,
   or converintg directly to a simpler and well-supported language).
  
   The emphasis would be on retaining as much semantic meaning as
  possible,
   across different levels of complexity, starting from the very
 basic. I
  am
   not aware of any similar academic or non-academic effort, but this
  could
   also be a long blog post.
  
  
  
   HI Ray,
  
   I am not sure about what you're asking, exactly? Perhaps a survey of
 the
   different lyx-doc(x) use cases that current lyx users care most
 about?
  Or
   rather a definition of the simplest yet still useful use case we can
   imagine? If the former, I would suggest starting a page on our wiki,
   perhaps as a possible GSoC 2014 project, as a repository of useful
 cases
 
  I think to start a wiki page to outline a possible GSoC 2014 project
  would be a good idea.
 
 
  I created a page here: http://wiki.lyx.org/GSoC/GSoCProjectIdeasFor2014
  The first item on the page is Round trip conversion between LyX and
 .docx
  formats http://wiki.lyx.org/GSoC/GSoCProjectIdeasFor2014#toc1
  I entered a minimal description of what I take is both Rainer's and Ray's
  wishes.
  Could you guys expand it?

 Thanks Stefano.

 just added my ideas and my understanding[1]. Please add your ideas and
 suggestions.



Thanks Rainer. I added a couple of desired items to your list.


Cheers,

Stefano
-- 
__
Stefano Franchi
Associate Research Professor
Department of Hispanic StudiesPh:   +1 (979) 845-2125
Texas AM University  Fax:  +1 (979) 845-6421
College Station, Texas, USA

stef...@tamu.edu
http://stefano.cleinias.org

Re: the dreaded docx export - WAS: Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

[Rainer M Krug]

stefano franchi stefano.fran...@gmail.com writes:

 On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 2:21 AM, Rainer M Krug rai...@krugs.de wrote:

 Ray Rashif schivmeis...@gmail.com writes:

  On 12 June 2013 03:57, stefano franchi stefano.fran...@gmail.com
 wrote:
 
 
 
 
  On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 2:09 PM, Ray Rashif schivmeis...@gmail.com
 wrote:
 
  On 11 June 2013 14:15, Rainer M Krug rai...@krugs.de wrote:
 
  I wanted to survey the LyX and LaTeX community for some opinions on
 this,
  perhaps to get an idea as to the demand for some research into this
 area.
  The project would do some empirical comparisons of the workarounds and
  propose at most two or three solutions that work (integration with
 Pandoc,
  or converintg directly to a simpler and well-supported language).
 
  The emphasis would be on retaining as much semantic meaning as
 possible,
  across different levels of complexity, starting from the very basic. I
 am
  not aware of any similar academic or non-academic effort, but this
 could
  also be a long blog post.
 
 
 
  HI Ray,
 
  I am not sure about what you're asking, exactly? Perhaps a survey of the
  different lyx-doc(x) use cases that current lyx users care most about?
 Or
  rather a definition of the simplest yet still useful use case we can
  imagine? If the former, I would suggest starting a page on our wiki,
  perhaps as a possible GSoC 2014 project, as a repository of useful cases

 I think to start a wiki page to outline a possible GSoC 2014 project
 would be a good idea.


 I created a page here: http://wiki.lyx.org/GSoC/GSoCProjectIdeasFor2014
 The first item on the page is Round trip conversion between LyX and .docx
 formats http://wiki.lyx.org/GSoC/GSoCProjectIdeasFor2014#toc1
 I entered a minimal description of what I take is both Rainer's and Ray's
 wishes.
 Could you guys expand it?

Thanks Stefano.

just added my ideas and my understanding[1]. Please add your ideas and
suggestions.

Cheers,

Rainer



 Cheers,

 Stefano



Footnotes: 
[1]  http://wiki.lyx.org/GSoC/GSoCProjectIdeasFor2014#toc1

-- 
Rainer M. Krug

email: RMKrugatgmaildotcom


pgpKPBRU7QomE.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: the dreaded docx export - WAS: Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

[Rainer M Krug]

stefano franchi stefano.fran...@gmail.com writes:

 On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 9:11 AM, Rainer M Krug rai...@krugs.de wrote:

 stefano franchi stefano.fran...@gmail.com writes:

  On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 2:21 AM, Rainer M Krug rai...@krugs.de wrote:
 
  Ray Rashif schivmeis...@gmail.com writes:
 
   On 12 June 2013 03:57, stefano franchi stefano.fran...@gmail.com
  wrote:
  
  
  
  
   On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 2:09 PM, Ray Rashif schivmeis...@gmail.com
  wrote:
  
   On 11 June 2013 14:15, Rainer M Krug rai...@krugs.de wrote:
  
   I wanted to survey the LyX and LaTeX community for some opinions on
  this,
   perhaps to get an idea as to the demand for some research into this
  area.
   The project would do some empirical comparisons of the workarounds
 and
   propose at most two or three solutions that work (integration with
  Pandoc,
   or converintg directly to a simpler and well-supported language).
  
   The emphasis would be on retaining as much semantic meaning as
  possible,
   across different levels of complexity, starting from the very
 basic. I
  am
   not aware of any similar academic or non-academic effort, but this
  could
   also be a long blog post.
  
  
  
   HI Ray,
  
   I am not sure about what you're asking, exactly? Perhaps a survey of
 the
   different lyx-doc(x) use cases that current lyx users care most
 about?
  Or
   rather a definition of the simplest yet still useful use case we can
   imagine? If the former, I would suggest starting a page on our wiki,
   perhaps as a possible GSoC 2014 project, as a repository of useful
 cases
 
  I think to start a wiki page to outline a possible GSoC 2014 project
  would be a good idea.
 
 
  I created a page here: http://wiki.lyx.org/GSoC/GSoCProjectIdeasFor2014
  The first item on the page is Round trip conversion between LyX and
 .docx
  formats http://wiki.lyx.org/GSoC/GSoCProjectIdeasFor2014#toc1
  I entered a minimal description of what I take is both Rainer's and Ray's
  wishes.
  Could you guys expand it?

 Thanks Stefano.

 just added my ideas and my understanding[1]. Please add your ideas and
 suggestions.



 Thanks Rainer. I added a couple of desired items to your list.

To collate the discussion, I added a ticket:

http://www.lyx.org/trac/ticket/8745

to record discussions there.

Please feel free to close the ticket if this is an wrong usage of a
ticket.

Cheers,

Rainer



 Cheers,

 Stefano
#secure method=pgpmime mode=sign

-- 
Rainer M. Krug, PhD (Conservation Ecology, SUN), MSc (Conservation Biology, 
UCT), Dipl. Phys. (Germany)

Centre of Excellence for Invasion Biology
Stellenbosch University
South Africa

Tel :   +33 - (0)9 53 10 27 44
Cell:   +33 - (0)6 85 62 59 98
Fax :   +33 - (0)9 58 10 27 44

Fax (D):+49 - (0)3 21 21 25 22 44

email:  rai...@krugs.de

Skype:  RMkrug

Re: Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

[Alan L Tyree]

Liviu Andronic writes:

 On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 11:15 AM, Murat Yildizoglu myi...@gmail.com wrote:
 Isn't there already a working corkboard tool for Lyx (but I have never been
 able to test it), by Rob?

 Yes, but it has never made its way to trunk. To my understanding the
 goal of the GSoC project is to polish the outliner/corkboard code,
 implement the missing bits and when ready merge with current trunk.

 Liviu
We might also look at 'tags' for these idea fragments. Ord-mode lets the
user attach tags to headlines. You can then search by tag and organise
views by tags. It's a powerful mechanism when you have a large number of
fragments.

Adding 'non-linear' writing tools to LyX, together with good ePub
support, would make it the killer tool for writers.

Cheers,
Alan




 2013/6/12 Liviu Andronic landronim...@gmail.com

 On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 10:09 AM, Jan Ulrich Hasecke
 juhase...@googlemail.com wrote:
  You can write a bestseller with a pencil or with vim/emacs. LyX could be
  a publishing environment producing high quality pdfs and ePubs ready for
  distribution. Our target group are not authors (have a look at
  Scrivener[1] to see what a program looks like that targets authors) but
  publishers.
 
 This is the goal of one of our GSoC projects this year:
 http://wiki.lyx.org/GSoC/NonLinearWriting and
 http://wiki.lyx.org/Devel/SummerOfCode2013Ideas#toc5 .

 Liviu




 --
 Prof. Murat Yildizoglu

 Université Montesquieu Bordeaux IV
 GREThA (UMR CNRS 5113)
 Avenue Léon Duguit
 33608 Pessac cedex
 France

 Bureau : E-331

 yildi-at-u-bordeaux4.fr

 web: yildizoglu.info


-- 
Alan L Tyree   http://www2.austlii.edu.au/~alan
Tel:  04 2748 6206 sip:172...@iptel.org

Re: Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

[Wolfgang Keller]

  of course he's right, but then he can google what DILLIGAF stands
  for :-)-O

 No he can't, with comments like
 /open source programs have great appeal for people who want to
 tinker with computers but almost none for those who actually want to
 do something./
 
 He would not be able to use Google as it is running open source 
 programs, and he wouldn't use it as it's against his principles.

He couldn't use the internet reasonably altogether, since BIND is
FOSS.

And most DNS servers are also running on FOSS operating systems, btw.

And then there are FOSS database systems such as e.g. PostgreSQL
feeding those BINDs with the data they need.

Besides all those routers and switches running firmware based on various
FOSS operating systems.

Sincerely,

Wolfgang

Re: the dreaded docx export - WAS: Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

[Rainer M Krug]

Ray Rashif  writes:

> On 12 June 2013 03:57, stefano franchi  wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 2:09 PM, Ray Rashif wrote:
>>
>>> On 11 June 2013 14:15, Rainer M Krug  wrote:
>>>
>>> I wanted to survey the LyX and LaTeX community for some opinions on this,
>>> perhaps to get an idea as to the demand for some research into this area.
>>> The project would do some empirical comparisons of the workarounds and
>>> propose at most two or three solutions that work (integration with Pandoc,
>>> or converintg directly to a simpler and well-supported language).
>>>
>>> The emphasis would be on retaining as much semantic meaning as possible,
>>> across different levels of complexity, starting from the very basic. I am
>>> not aware of any similar academic or non-academic effort, but this could
>>> also be a long blog post.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> HI Ray,
>>
>> I am not sure about what you're asking, exactly? Perhaps a survey of the
>> different lyx-doc(x) use cases that current lyx users care most about? Or
>> rather a definition of the simplest yet still useful use case we can
>> imagine? If the former, I would suggest starting a page on our wiki,
>> perhaps as a possible GSoC 2014 project, as a repository of useful cases

I think to start a wiki page to outline a possible GSoC 2014 project
would be a good idea.

>> people could refer to. If the latter...well I'd need further info because
>> I'm not really sure what you're aiming for.
>>
>
> Hey Stefano
>
> Sorry for the lack of clarity there -- probably a mistake of dumping one or
> two things I had on my mind without context. I was referring to
> cross-platform document interoperability for collaborative writing and
> editing, not really LyX-specific but very much related, and not really a
> new issue.
>
> If there are people indeed affected by this, and they would like some
> documentation, then I'd like to put in some time to review current issues
> and strategies, and produce working code to convert a non-friendly format
> into a pluggable one (into LyX, LaTeX, Pandoc) for _only_ the use cases
> that matter most (according to the target audience; writers, editors,
> fiction or non-fiction).

Certainly I would be interested in having this info, as I am again have
to compile documents together with word users - and a collection of
strategies how to handle this would be very much welcome.

>
> Often times I have found myself dealing with only a subset of formatting
> tools during the first phase of a write-up, in most cases a draft, and I
> would often make the mistake of thinking they're simple enough to not break
> collaboration. I would assume many of our workflows start with sections,
> followed by emphasis (boldface and italics), then simple lists (itemized
> and enumerated), footnotes, and finally citations.


This boils down to what I discussed during the thread of LaTeX roundtrip
(unfortunately, I don't have it at hand, but can search if yu can't find
it): having one subset of features for roundtrips to other formats which
are supported. This should be done in a way, so that they can easiliy be
extended, and the general framework (definition and identification of
features supported) should be independent of the other partner in the
roundtrip (docx, latex, odt, ...). In addition, metadata about
non-converted features could be stored, and re-applied / added on the
re-import of the roundtrip.

Furthermore, there should also be an exporter to he format, which tries
to export the document as accurate as possible, but not usable for roundtrips.


>
> Personally I have never needed anything more complex like cross-references,
> tables and images -- I always schedule them for later phases because they
> interrupt the workflow, although I do make space for them informally (using
> characters I can easily search for). At the end of the day, what I have to
> deal with is a DOC or DOCX file with semantic comments (that are not
> understood by most other tools), no matter where or how I start.

Exactly - that is what is needed for the roundtrip. 

Cheers,

Rainer


>
> == TL;DR ==
> What I'd like is to solve for the missing input formats in e.g. Pandoc. It
> does not support RTF, DOC, or DOCX, but supports HTML, which Word does not
> output cleanly. Either way, it's something I have had in my mind for some
> time, but too busy to investigate or ask around methodically. Getting an
> idea of the demand for a solution in this case could force me to invest the
> time.
>
> Inspiration: http://gio.act.gov.au/2013/03/13/document-conversion-markdown/
>
>
> --
> GPG/PGP ID: C0711BF1


-- 
Rainer M. Krug, PhD (Conservation Ecology, SUN), MSc (Conservation Biology, 
UCT), Dipl. Phys. (Germany)

Centre of Excellence for Invasion Biology
Stellenbosch University
South Africa

Tel :   +33 - (0)9 53 10 27 44
Cell:   +33 - (0)6 85 62 59 98
Fax :   +33 - (0)9 58 10 27 44

Fax (D): 

Re: Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

[Liviu Andronic]

On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 1:55 AM, Stephen George
 wrote:
> On 12/06/2013 1:02 AM, Dr Eberhard Lisse wrote:
>
> of course he's right, but then he can google what DILLIGAF stands
> for :-)-O
>
> No he can't, with comments like
> "open source programs have great appeal for people who want to tinker with
> computers but almost none for those who actually want to do something."
>
> He would not be able to use Google as it is running open source programs,
> and he wouldn't use it as it's against his principles.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_platform
> "Servers are commodity-class x86 PCs running customized versions of Linux."
>
> Further to that, finding a book with good amazon ranking would also be
> useless, as Amazon is also running open source, so he also would NOT use
> that service.
> http://news.cnet.com/2100-1001-275155.html
>
> In fact he probably doesn't do much web surfing with the open source Apache
> dominating the HTTP internet server market
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apache_HTTP_Server
> "Since April 1996 Apache has been the most popular HTTP server software in
> use. As of December 2012 Apache was estimated to serve 63.7% of all active
> websites and 58.49% of the top servers across all domains"
>
> There is a big chance the writers forum were he made those comments is also
> powered by an open source program.
>
Not to mention that he is probably surfing the web via Firefox or Chrome.

Liviu


> Sorry for the outburst, I just can't believe how polarised some people are
> against open source programs.
> Personally I dont think you should feed him with fuel, just let it drop and
> continue on with your own life using the programs you enjoy, I dont think
> you have anything to prove. (but I do understand the sense of outrage after
> hearing the comments)
>
> Steve
>



-- 
Do you know how to read?
http://www.alienetworks.com/srtest.cfm
http://goodies.xfce.org/projects/applications/xfce4-dict#speed-reader
Do you know how to write?
http://garbl.home.comcast.net/~garbl/stylemanual/e.htm#e-mail

Re: Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

[Jan Ulrich Hasecke]

It is flattering to say, hey John Doe the great novelist is using LyX,
but much more important is another question.

Is LyX the right tool for a publisher who wants to publish printed books
and ebooks from the same source, which is what publishers want to do
today. At least this is what I want to do. ;-)

While there is no question concerning the typesetting quality of
LyX/LaTeX, I still have questions concerning ebooks. I listed them in
another thread.
http://www.mail-archive.com/lyx-users@lists.lyx.org/msg95701.html

You can write a bestseller with a pencil or with vim/emacs. LyX could be
a publishing environment producing high quality pdfs and ePubs ready for
distribution. Our target group are not authors (have a look at
Scrivener[1] to see what a program looks like that targets authors) but
publishers.

Cheers!
juh

[1] http://www.literatureandlatte.com/scrivener.php


-- 
Demeter and the Commons of Being
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00BGPS26W
Speculative essay against loss of ancestry and the arrogation of property

Re: Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

[Liviu Andronic]

On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 10:09 AM, Jan Ulrich Hasecke
 wrote:
> You can write a bestseller with a pencil or with vim/emacs. LyX could be
> a publishing environment producing high quality pdfs and ePubs ready for
> distribution. Our target group are not authors (have a look at
> Scrivener[1] to see what a program looks like that targets authors) but
> publishers.
>
This is the goal of one of our GSoC projects this year:
http://wiki.lyx.org/GSoC/NonLinearWriting and
http://wiki.lyx.org/Devel/SummerOfCode2013Ideas#toc5 .

Liviu

Re: Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

[Jan Ulrich Hasecke]

Am 12.06.2013 10:59, schrieb Liviu Andronic:
> On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 10:09 AM, Jan Ulrich Hasecke
>  wrote:
>> You can write a bestseller with a pencil or with vim/emacs. LyX could be
>> a publishing environment producing high quality pdfs and ePubs ready for
>> distribution. Our target group are not authors (have a look at
>> Scrivener[1] to see what a program looks like that targets authors) but
>> publishers.
>>
> This is the goal of one of our GSoC projects this year:
> http://wiki.lyx.org/GSoC/NonLinearWriting and
> http://wiki.lyx.org/Devel/SummerOfCode2013Ideas#toc5 .

Great news! There is als AFAIK a GSoC project for better ePub support.
So my dreams might come true soon.

Thanks!
juh

Re: Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

[Murat Yildizoglu]

Isn't there already a working corkboard tool for Lyx (but I have never been
able to test it), by Rob?


2013/6/12 Liviu Andronic 

> On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 10:09 AM, Jan Ulrich Hasecke
>  wrote:
> > You can write a bestseller with a pencil or with vim/emacs. LyX could be
> > a publishing environment producing high quality pdfs and ePubs ready for
> > distribution. Our target group are not authors (have a look at
> > Scrivener[1] to see what a program looks like that targets authors) but
> > publishers.
> >
> This is the goal of one of our GSoC projects this year:
> http://wiki.lyx.org/GSoC/NonLinearWriting and
> http://wiki.lyx.org/Devel/SummerOfCode2013Ideas#toc5 .
>
> Liviu
>



-- 
Prof. Murat Yildizoglu

Université Montesquieu Bordeaux IV
GREThA (UMR CNRS 5113)
Avenue Léon Duguit
33608 Pessac cedex
France

Bureau : E-331

yildi-at-u-bordeaux4.fr

web: yildizoglu.info

Re: Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

[Liviu Andronic]

On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 11:15 AM, Murat Yildizoglu  wrote:
> Isn't there already a working corkboard tool for Lyx (but I have never been
> able to test it), by Rob?
>
Yes, but it has never made its way to trunk. To my understanding the
goal of the GSoC project is to polish the outliner/corkboard code,
implement the missing bits and when ready merge with current trunk.

Liviu


>
> 2013/6/12 Liviu Andronic 
>>
>> On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 10:09 AM, Jan Ulrich Hasecke
>>  wrote:
>> > You can write a bestseller with a pencil or with vim/emacs. LyX could be
>> > a publishing environment producing high quality pdfs and ePubs ready for
>> > distribution. Our target group are not authors (have a look at
>> > Scrivener[1] to see what a program looks like that targets authors) but
>> > publishers.
>> >
>> This is the goal of one of our GSoC projects this year:
>> http://wiki.lyx.org/GSoC/NonLinearWriting and
>> http://wiki.lyx.org/Devel/SummerOfCode2013Ideas#toc5 .
>>
>> Liviu
>
>
>
>
> --
> Prof. Murat Yildizoglu
>
> Université Montesquieu Bordeaux IV
> GREThA (UMR CNRS 5113)
> Avenue Léon Duguit
> 33608 Pessac cedex
> France
>
> Bureau : E-331
>
> yildi-at-u-bordeaux4.fr
>
> web: yildizoglu.info



-- 
Do you know how to read?
http://www.alienetworks.com/srtest.cfm
http://goodies.xfce.org/projects/applications/xfce4-dict#speed-reader
Do you know how to write?
http://garbl.home.comcast.net/~garbl/stylemanual/e.htm#e-mail

Re: the dreaded docx export - WAS: Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

[stefano franchi]

On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 2:21 AM, Rainer M Krug  wrote:

> Ray Rashif  writes:
>
> > On 12 June 2013 03:57, stefano franchi 
> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 2:09 PM, Ray Rashif  >wrote:
> >>
> >>> On 11 June 2013 14:15, Rainer M Krug  wrote:
> >>>
> >>> I wanted to survey the LyX and LaTeX community for some opinions on
> this,
> >>> perhaps to get an idea as to the demand for some research into this
> area.
> >>> The project would do some empirical comparisons of the workarounds and
> >>> propose at most two or three solutions that work (integration with
> Pandoc,
> >>> or converintg directly to a simpler and well-supported language).
> >>>
> >>> The emphasis would be on retaining as much semantic meaning as
> possible,
> >>> across different levels of complexity, starting from the very basic. I
> am
> >>> not aware of any similar academic or non-academic effort, but this
> could
> >>> also be a long blog post.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >> HI Ray,
> >>
> >> I am not sure about what you're asking, exactly? Perhaps a survey of the
> >> different lyx-doc(x) use cases that current lyx users care most about?
> Or
> >> rather a definition of the simplest yet still useful use case we can
> >> imagine? If the former, I would suggest starting a page on our wiki,
> >> perhaps as a possible GSoC 2014 project, as a repository of useful cases
>
> I think to start a wiki page to outline a possible GSoC 2014 project
> would be a good idea.
>
>
I created a page here: http://wiki.lyx.org/GSoC/GSoCProjectIdeasFor2014
The first item on the page is "Round trip conversion between LyX and .docx
formats "
I entered a minimal description of what I take is both Rainer's and Ray's
wishes.
Could you guys expand it?


Cheers,

Stefano
-- 
__
Stefano Franchi
Associate Research Professor
Department of Hispanic StudiesPh:   +1 (979) 845-2125
Texas A University  Fax:  +1 (979) 845-6421
College Station, Texas, USA

stef...@tamu.edu
http://stefano.cleinias.org

Re: Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

[Steve Litt]

On Wed, 12 Jun 2013 10:59:00 +0200
Liviu Andronic  wrote:

> This is the goal of one of our GSoC projects this year:
> http://wiki.lyx.org/GSoC/NonLinearWriting and

Please tell the person doing the NonLinearWriting project that if he
needs to talk with an author of Discovery Fiction, he should feel free
to email me at my normal email address.

I could describe down to the smallest detail how I write nonfiction.
With fiction, all I can tell you is I get a general idea, do a lot of
walking and thinking, and on a hope and a prayer start writing, and
somehow the book gets written. That's really not much of an explanation
for a guy who is a champion of process and claims everyone should know
*how* they do things. Maybe he can learn from me, and maybe I can learn
from him.

Thanks,

SteveT

Steve Litt*  http://www.troubleshooters.com/
Troubleshooting Training  *  Human Performance

Re: the dreaded docx export - WAS: Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

[stefano franchi]

On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 9:11 AM, Rainer M Krug  wrote:

> stefano franchi  writes:
>
> > On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 2:21 AM, Rainer M Krug  wrote:
> >
> >> Ray Rashif  writes:
> >>
> >> > On 12 June 2013 03:57, stefano franchi 
> >> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 2:09 PM, Ray Rashif  >> >wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >>> On 11 June 2013 14:15, Rainer M Krug  wrote:
> >> >>>
> >> >>> I wanted to survey the LyX and LaTeX community for some opinions on
> >> this,
> >> >>> perhaps to get an idea as to the demand for some research into this
> >> area.
> >> >>> The project would do some empirical comparisons of the workarounds
> and
> >> >>> propose at most two or three solutions that work (integration with
> >> Pandoc,
> >> >>> or converintg directly to a simpler and well-supported language).
> >> >>>
> >> >>> The emphasis would be on retaining as much semantic meaning as
> >> possible,
> >> >>> across different levels of complexity, starting from the very
> basic. I
> >> am
> >> >>> not aware of any similar academic or non-academic effort, but this
> >> could
> >> >>> also be a long blog post.
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>
> >> >> HI Ray,
> >> >>
> >> >> I am not sure about what you're asking, exactly? Perhaps a survey of
> the
> >> >> different lyx-doc(x) use cases that current lyx users care most
> about?
> >> Or
> >> >> rather a definition of the simplest yet still useful use case we can
> >> >> imagine? If the former, I would suggest starting a page on our wiki,
> >> >> perhaps as a possible GSoC 2014 project, as a repository of useful
> cases
> >>
> >> I think to start a wiki page to outline a possible GSoC 2014 project
> >> would be a good idea.
> >>
> >>
> > I created a page here: http://wiki.lyx.org/GSoC/GSoCProjectIdeasFor2014
> > The first item on the page is "Round trip conversion between LyX and
> .docx
> > formats "
> > I entered a minimal description of what I take is both Rainer's and Ray's
> > wishes.
> > Could you guys expand it?
>
> Thanks Stefano.
>
> just added my ideas and my understanding[1]. Please add your ideas and
> suggestions.
>
>

Thanks Rainer. I added a couple of desired items to your list.


Cheers,

Stefano
-- 
__
Stefano Franchi
Associate Research Professor
Department of Hispanic StudiesPh:   +1 (979) 845-2125
Texas A University  Fax:  +1 (979) 845-6421
College Station, Texas, USA

stef...@tamu.edu
http://stefano.cleinias.org

Re: the dreaded docx export - WAS: Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

[Rainer M Krug]

stefano franchi  writes:

> On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 2:21 AM, Rainer M Krug  wrote:
>
>> Ray Rashif  writes:
>>
>> > On 12 June 2013 03:57, stefano franchi 
>> wrote:
>> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 2:09 PM, Ray Rashif > >wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> On 11 June 2013 14:15, Rainer M Krug  wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> I wanted to survey the LyX and LaTeX community for some opinions on
>> this,
>> >>> perhaps to get an idea as to the demand for some research into this
>> area.
>> >>> The project would do some empirical comparisons of the workarounds and
>> >>> propose at most two or three solutions that work (integration with
>> Pandoc,
>> >>> or converintg directly to a simpler and well-supported language).
>> >>>
>> >>> The emphasis would be on retaining as much semantic meaning as
>> possible,
>> >>> across different levels of complexity, starting from the very basic. I
>> am
>> >>> not aware of any similar academic or non-academic effort, but this
>> could
>> >>> also be a long blog post.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >> HI Ray,
>> >>
>> >> I am not sure about what you're asking, exactly? Perhaps a survey of the
>> >> different lyx-doc(x) use cases that current lyx users care most about?
>> Or
>> >> rather a definition of the simplest yet still useful use case we can
>> >> imagine? If the former, I would suggest starting a page on our wiki,
>> >> perhaps as a possible GSoC 2014 project, as a repository of useful cases
>>
>> I think to start a wiki page to outline a possible GSoC 2014 project
>> would be a good idea.
>>
>>
> I created a page here: http://wiki.lyx.org/GSoC/GSoCProjectIdeasFor2014
> The first item on the page is "Round trip conversion between LyX and .docx
> formats "
> I entered a minimal description of what I take is both Rainer's and Ray's
> wishes.
> Could you guys expand it?

Thanks Stefano.

just added my ideas and my understanding[1]. Please add your ideas and
suggestions.

Cheers,

Rainer

>
>
> Cheers,
>
> Stefano



Footnotes: 
[1]  http://wiki.lyx.org/GSoC/GSoCProjectIdeasFor2014#toc1

-- 
Rainer M. Krug

email: RMKruggmailcom


pgpKPBRU7QomE.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: the dreaded docx export - WAS: Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

[Rainer M Krug]

stefano franchi  writes:

> On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 9:11 AM, Rainer M Krug  wrote:
>
>> stefano franchi  writes:
>>
>> > On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 2:21 AM, Rainer M Krug  wrote:
>> >
>> >> Ray Rashif  writes:
>> >>
>> >> > On 12 June 2013 03:57, stefano franchi 
>> >> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 2:09 PM, Ray Rashif > >> >wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >>> On 11 June 2013 14:15, Rainer M Krug  wrote:
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> I wanted to survey the LyX and LaTeX community for some opinions on
>> >> this,
>> >> >>> perhaps to get an idea as to the demand for some research into this
>> >> area.
>> >> >>> The project would do some empirical comparisons of the workarounds
>> and
>> >> >>> propose at most two or three solutions that work (integration with
>> >> Pandoc,
>> >> >>> or converintg directly to a simpler and well-supported language).
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> The emphasis would be on retaining as much semantic meaning as
>> >> possible,
>> >> >>> across different levels of complexity, starting from the very
>> basic. I
>> >> am
>> >> >>> not aware of any similar academic or non-academic effort, but this
>> >> could
>> >> >>> also be a long blog post.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> HI Ray,
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I am not sure about what you're asking, exactly? Perhaps a survey of
>> the
>> >> >> different lyx-doc(x) use cases that current lyx users care most
>> about?
>> >> Or
>> >> >> rather a definition of the simplest yet still useful use case we can
>> >> >> imagine? If the former, I would suggest starting a page on our wiki,
>> >> >> perhaps as a possible GSoC 2014 project, as a repository of useful
>> cases
>> >>
>> >> I think to start a wiki page to outline a possible GSoC 2014 project
>> >> would be a good idea.
>> >>
>> >>
>> > I created a page here: http://wiki.lyx.org/GSoC/GSoCProjectIdeasFor2014
>> > The first item on the page is "Round trip conversion between LyX and
>> .docx
>> > formats "
>> > I entered a minimal description of what I take is both Rainer's and Ray's
>> > wishes.
>> > Could you guys expand it?
>>
>> Thanks Stefano.
>>
>> just added my ideas and my understanding[1]. Please add your ideas and
>> suggestions.
>>
>>
>
> Thanks Rainer. I added a couple of desired items to your list.

To collate the discussion, I added a ticket:

http://www.lyx.org/trac/ticket/8745

to record discussions there.

Please feel free to close the ticket if this is an wrong usage of a
ticket.

Cheers,

Rainer

>
>
> Cheers,
>
> Stefano
<#secure method=pgpmime mode=sign>

-- 
Rainer M. Krug, PhD (Conservation Ecology, SUN), MSc (Conservation Biology, 
UCT), Dipl. Phys. (Germany)

Centre of Excellence for Invasion Biology
Stellenbosch University
South Africa

Tel :   +33 - (0)9 53 10 27 44
Cell:   +33 - (0)6 85 62 59 98
Fax :   +33 - (0)9 58 10 27 44

Fax (D):+49 - (0)3 21 21 25 22 44

email:  rai...@krugs.de

Skype:  RMkrug

Re: Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

[Alan L Tyree]

Liviu Andronic writes:

> On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 11:15 AM, Murat Yildizoglu  wrote:
>> Isn't there already a working corkboard tool for Lyx (but I have never been
>> able to test it), by Rob?
>>
> Yes, but it has never made its way to trunk. To my understanding the
> goal of the GSoC project is to polish the outliner/corkboard code,
> implement the missing bits and when ready merge with current trunk.
>
> Liviu
We might also look at 'tags' for these idea fragments. Ord-mode lets the
user attach tags to headlines. You can then search by tag and organise
views by tags. It's a powerful mechanism when you have a large number of
fragments.

Adding 'non-linear' writing tools to LyX, together with good ePub
support, would make it the killer tool for writers.

Cheers,
Alan

>
>
>>
>> 2013/6/12 Liviu Andronic 
>>>
>>> On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 10:09 AM, Jan Ulrich Hasecke
>>>  wrote:
>>> > You can write a bestseller with a pencil or with vim/emacs. LyX could be
>>> > a publishing environment producing high quality pdfs and ePubs ready for
>>> > distribution. Our target group are not authors (have a look at
>>> > Scrivener[1] to see what a program looks like that targets authors) but
>>> > publishers.
>>> >
>>> This is the goal of one of our GSoC projects this year:
>>> http://wiki.lyx.org/GSoC/NonLinearWriting and
>>> http://wiki.lyx.org/Devel/SummerOfCode2013Ideas#toc5 .
>>>
>>> Liviu
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Prof. Murat Yildizoglu
>>
>> Université Montesquieu Bordeaux IV
>> GREThA (UMR CNRS 5113)
>> Avenue Léon Duguit
>> 33608 Pessac cedex
>> France
>>
>> Bureau : E-331
>>
>> yildi-at-u-bordeaux4.fr
>>
>> web: yildizoglu.info


-- 
Alan L Tyree   http://www2.austlii.edu.au/~alan
Tel:  04 2748 6206 sip:172...@iptel.org

Re: Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

[Wolfgang Keller]

> > of course he's right, but then he can google what DILLIGAF stands
> > for :-)-O

> No he can't, with comments like
> /"open source programs have great appeal for people who want to
> tinker with computers but almost none for those who actually want to
> do something."/
> 
> He would not be able to use Google as it is running open source 
> programs, and he wouldn't use it as it's against his principles.

He couldn't use "the internet" reasonably altogether, since BIND is
FOSS.

And most DNS servers are also running on FOSS operating systems, btw.

And then there are FOSS database systems such as e.g. PostgreSQL
feeding those BINDs with the data they need.

Besides all those routers and switches running firmware based on various
FOSS operating systems.

Sincerely,

Wolfgang

the dreaded docx export - WAS: Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

[Rainer M Krug]

stefano franchi stefano.fran...@gmail.com writes:

 On Mon, Jun 10, 2013 at 1:44 PM, Les Denham lden...@hal-pc.org wrote:

 On Sun, 9 Jun 2013 10:32:20 -0500
 stefano franchi stefano.fran...@gmail.com wrote:

  I'm willing to bet you won't find such an example. The reason is
  simple: more or less by definition a best-seller is book produced by
  a major commercial publishing house supported by a consistent
  marketing effort, heavily edited by a professional editor and laid
  out by a (team of ) typesetters according to a carefully designed
  house-specific graphic design project.

 While that is the traditional definition of a best seller, it is
 becoming less and less relevant.


 You may be right. As I said, I'm a pessimist. Yet, I've still to meet the
 production editor of a major publishing house who would accept a manuscript
 in LyX or Latex formats. Whereas I've met editors willing to accept a
 *paper* manuscript and have it retyped in Word.


 I use LyX rather than Word (or its clones) because it allows me to
 produce a presentable document in about half the time it takes with
 Word. This is emphatically the case if it is a document requiring a
 detailed table of contents, an index, or a bibliography, or if it
 contains figures, cross-references or footnotes.


 I guess that's the very reason why we all use LyX. I certainly wouldn't be
 as productive in Word. But those of us working in the Humanities (at least
 some Humanities) then have to budget some time to convert the output to
 Word. Nothing else is accepted. I tend to think best-sellers authors'
 position is closer to us than to a physicist's, a mathematician's or a
 logician's. That's why a minimal and yet reliable LyX-to-Doc converter---a
 topic we've repeatedly discussed on the list---would make such a difference
 to the non-technical user, IMHO.


This developed into a very interesting and I guess useful discussion -
thanks.
And, as you said, it brings back the question of export to docx.

I think I mentioned it already, but I made quite good experiences with
using pandoc[1]:

,
| #
| # FORMATS SECTION ##
| #
| \format msdocx docx Microsoft docx  
/usr/share/playonlinux/playonlinux --run \Microsoft Word 2010\ 
/usr/share/playonlinux/playonlinux --run \Microsoft Word 2010\ 
document,menu=export
| #
| # CONVERTERS SECTION ##
| #
| \converter xhtml msdocx pandoc -o $$o $$i 
`

it is most definitely not perfect, but for reltively simple documents,
it works nicely. I used it to convert a handbook with pictures and
references, but I don't think footnotes, for my co-authors to review and
for sending to layouting.

There are definitely aspects which would need improvement here, but this
was the beast way I could find. 

To improve the export, one could go two ways: improve an existing tool
(e.g. pandoc) to be used as the universal converter, to possibly even
include .lyx as an input format, to produce satisfying non-tex and
non-(x)html outputs, or to write an own tool. 

The question is, how interested people are and how one could get this
(internal ox external to LyX) converter.

I would guess, as not much has materialized after the previous
discussions, that the problem is, that the ones interested in this
feature, do have no time or not enough expertise (myself) to do it. So
how could one still make any progress in this feature? 

I like the idea from Steve, as seeing LyX as a frontend for different
backends for export, where the LaTeX backend is the authoritative one.

And in my personal opinion, it would be a very useful to investigate
pandoc further, as it already has a variety of output formats.
,
| - HTML formats :: XHTML, HTML5, and HTML slide shows using Slidy, Slideous, 
S5, or DZSlides.
| - Word processor formats :: Microsoft Word docx, OpenOffice/LibreOffice ODT, 
OpenDocument XML
| - Ebooks :: EPUB version 2 or 3, FictionBook2
| - Documentation formats :: DocBook, GNU TexInfo, Groff man pages
| - TeX formats :: LaTeX, ConTeXt, LaTeX Beamer slides
| - PDF :: via LaTeX
| - Lightweight markup formats :: Markdown, reStructuredText, AsciiDoc, 
MediaWiki markup, Emacs Org-Mode, Textile
`

These are just ideas from my side, but to try to incorporate pandoc
into LyX in the same way as LaTeX is Incorporated, would make LyX even
more powerful then it is already now.

Cheers,

Rainer



 Cheers,

 S.



Footnotes: 
[1]  http://johnmacfarlane.net/pandoc/

-- 
Rainer M. Krug

email: RMKrugatgmaildotcom


pgpphOicpRgMH.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: Lyx2doc: was Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

[Richard Heck]

On 06/10/2013 06:05 PM, Steve Litt wrote:

These days, it could be used as a front end to anything with the proper
styles defined, and the proper converter. So the same LyX file could be
used to output LaTeX, MSWord doc, XHTML, HTML, simple HTML, or who
knows what else.

To more easily accommodate this, it seems to me like layout files
should be split into an input side and an output side, with the output
side capable of multiple output formats. So the input side might look
something like this:

CharStyle MyEmph
Font
Shape Italic
EndFont

if outputtype == latex
outputName  latexlayout.layout/myemphL
outputType  Command
elsif outputtype == simplehtml
outputName  simphtmllayout.layout/myemphH
outputType  InlineTag
else outputtype == msword
outputName  winwordlayout.layout/myemphW
outputType  CharacterStyle
End

Environments would be similar.

Ideally it would be designed so that it doesn't syntax check inside the
output type's it's not. That way you can develop one output type at a
time without getting errors from the ones you haven't developed yet.


This can already be done, more or less. That is, I can't imagine 
anything you'd want to do, as far as XHTML export goes, that isn't 
provided for in the layout files.


Indeed, I am sufficiently confident about this that I'd be surprised if 
it were not possible to build the sort of simple HTML export you want 
simply by writing a new layout file.


Richard



It seems to me that something like this would be a logical way of
turning LyX into a universal front end while changing very little of
LyX's core code.

I'm not a good enough programmer to do this in C++, so feel free to view
this suggestion with some healthy skepticism.

Thanks,

SteveT

Steve Litt*  http://www.troubleshooters.com/
Troubleshooting Training  *  Human Performance

Re: Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

[Dr Eberhard Lisse]

Steve,

of course he's right, but then he can google what DILLIGAF stands
for :-)-O

I run a Obstetrician and Gynaecologist's practice for all documents,
letters, reports, some recreated forms, prescriptions, presentations
(beamer and recently discovered beamerposter), statistics (SWEAVE)
and typed my wife's thesis using LyX and BibDesk.

I like NeoOffice (OO on Mac), but only so that I can export to LaTeX
and from there to LyX.

However, I find it as difficult as you to convince people that they
should make it easy on themselves and produce quality output with
minimal effort :-)-O. They are just too lazy...

el


on 2013-06-09 15:36 Steve Litt said the following:
[...]
 ===
 As for Lyx, you need to know that, with very few exceptions —
 none of which immediately come to mind — open source programs
 have great appeal for people who want to tinker with computers but
 almost none for those who actually want to do something.  Such
 apps tend to have butt ugly interfaces and stupid names like Lyx
 and Snort and Gimp and Phlegm.  Last I saw, Lyx wasn't even
 WYSIWYG, for crying out loud.  Forewarned is forewarned.  Or
 something like that.
 ===
[...]

Re: Lyx2doc: was Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

[stefano franchi]

On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 9:32 AM, Richard Heck rgh...@lyx.org wrote:

 On 06/10/2013 06:05 PM, Steve Litt wrote:

 This can already be done, more or less. That is, I can't imagine anything
 you'd want to do, as far as XHTML export goes, that isn't provided for in
 the layout files.

 Indeed, I am sufficiently confident about this that I'd be surprised if it
 were not possible to build the sort of simple HTML export you want simply
 by writing a new layout file



Richard,

I just spent the last hour converting a short (2800 words)  lyx/pdf file
into Word. Could you tell me where I should look to fix the problems I
detail below?

Setup: Lyx + memoir + biblatex = Biber. Usually typeset to pdf with
lualatex. . File contained two images (in floats, reduced from the
originals by latex) Archlinux box with TL2012

I tried the elyxer routes (both regular and html(word)) and they failed
with too many errors to report here. I then exported to xhtml, imported
into abiword and exported to doc format. Opened it it libreoffice for final
cleanup.

Here are the problems I found. My guess is that part of these are LyX/XHMTL
issues and part are due to AbiWord.

1. Bibliography did not come over and was just ignored. I had to copy and
paste from the pdf output. Biblatex issue?

2. Footnote text came over but not as a footnote. It was just pasted in the
correct location but as a regular text.

3. Latex special character issues: em-dash as triple hyphen came over as
a triple hyphen and not as an em-dash. tilde as non-breaking space (I
routinely use that in references) came over as tilde.

4. Images were pasted more or less where the floats were inserted, at full
original size.

5. Captions followed the images as regular text.

6. Formatting of the paragraph environment was lost (I guess it's too
deeply nested to have a corresponding h level?)

Are these issues that a proper layout file would sort out?


Cheers,

Stefano

-- 
__
Stefano Franchi
Associate Research Professor
Department of Hispanic StudiesPh:   +1 (979) 845-2125
Texas AM University  Fax:  +1 (979) 845-6421
College Station, Texas, USA

stef...@tamu.edu
http://stefano.cleinias.org

Re: Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

[Wolfgang Keller]

 But I can tell you this guy is going to come back and say he's a great
 and mighty best selling author, ask how many books have I sold. While
 books provide a part of my income, I have no best sellers, either now
 or in the past.
 
 So, when he comes back and asks that, it would be *wonderful* to give
 the writer's list one or more best seller books (I think something
 with an Amazon rank of less than 5000 would do it), to refute his
 statement, by counterexample.

First, LyX is just a GUI, a sort-of-IDE for LaTeX, even though it uses
its own file format. And you would never make a distinction between the
various LaTeX IDEs or editors or front-ends or...

Next, LaTeX (and consequently, any of the various front-ends for it) is
*the* publishing tool within the scientific world. Obviously, no one
would write pulp fiction or non-fiction bestseller books with it,
since those authors aren't scientists.

And concerning .doc as a content exchange format; During my last 25
years of experience with writing documents I have *never*, repeat
*never* seen anyone re-use from a .doc document any content beyond bare
naked unformatted raw text. Even if it was for re-use *within* MS Word.

Paste as unformatted text is the only possibility of content re-use
that the spaghetti-format of Word effectively allows. No matter what
effort you deploy in preparing templates with styles and whatnot - it
won't work, ever.

Sincerely,

Wolfgang

Re: Lyx2doc: was Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

[Steve Litt]

On Tue, 11 Jun 2013 10:32:12 -0400
Richard Heck rgh...@lyx.org wrote:

 On 06/10/2013 06:05 PM, Steve Litt wrote:
  These days, it could be used as a front end to anything with the
  proper styles defined, and the proper converter. So the same LyX
  file could be used to output LaTeX, MSWord doc, XHTML, HTML, simple
  HTML, or who knows what else.
 
  To more easily accommodate this, it seems to me like layout files
  should be split into an input side and an output side, with the
  output side capable of multiple output formats. So the input side
  might look something like this:
 
  CharStyle MyEmph
  Font
  Shape Italic
  EndFont
 
  if outputtype == latex
  outputName  latexlayout.layout/myemphL
  outputType  Command
  elsif outputtype == simplehtml
  outputName  simphtmllayout.layout/myemphH
  outputType  InlineTag
  else outputtype == msword
  outputName  winwordlayout.layout/myemphW
  outputType  CharacterStyle
  End
 
  Environments would be similar.
 
  Ideally it would be designed so that it doesn't syntax check inside
  the output type's it's not. That way you can develop one output
  type at a time without getting errors from the ones you haven't
  developed yet.
 
 This can already be done, more or less. That is, I can't imagine 
 anything you'd want to do, as far as XHTML export goes, that isn't 
 provided for in the layout files.
 
 Indeed, I am sufficiently confident about this that I'd be surprised
 if it were not possible to build the sort of simple HTML export you
 want simply by writing a new layout file.

Thanks Richard,

When I tried to do this with my layout file, it failed miserably. Try
as I might, I couldn't get Standard to map to p, nor could I get
Section to map to h1, etc.

SteveT

Steve Litt*  http://www.troubleshooters.com/
Troubleshooting Training  *  Human Performance

Re: Lyx2doc: was Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

[Richard Heck]

On 06/11/2013 01:18 PM, stefano franchi wrote:



Here are the problems I found. My guess is that part of these are 
LyX/XHMTL issues and part are due to AbiWord.


1. Bibliography did not come over and was just ignored. I had to copy 
and paste from the pdf output. Biblatex issue?


Probably. If there's no BibTeX inset, then the bibliography will not be 
produced, and I guess you don't have that for BibLaTeX, except maybe in 
a note. So this is really an effect of the fact that we have no formal 
support for BibLaTeX.


2. Footnote text came over but not as a footnote. It was just pasted 
in the correct location but as a regular text.


Footnotes are just exported as div's, with class=footnote, so AbiWord 
or whatever will not recognize it as a footnote. There's not really any 
HTML equivalent of a footnote, so I'm not sure there is much to be done 
here.


3. Latex special character issues: em-dash as triple hyphen came 
over as a triple hyphen and not as an em-dash. tilde as non-breaking 
space (I routinely use that in references) came over as tilde.


The em-dash SHOULD be exported as such. There's code in 
Paragraph::simpleLyXHTMLOnePar() that is supposed to handle this. It 
works for me in a simple test document.


The tilde is a different story. Can you file a bug about that? We do 
some LaTeX -- HTML conversion here, handling things like \u, so I just 
need to add handling of ~.


4. Images were pasted more or less where the floats were inserted, at 
full original size.


Another bug. I suppose we should scale them somehow? Please post a bug 
about this, too.


There's not really anything to do other than put the images where they 
are inserted. HTML has no concept of a page, so the placement options 
make no sense.



5. Captions followed the images as regular text.


Similar to the footnote problem, I think. Probably we should switch to 
using the new figure tag and the associated figcaption tag. Can you 
also file a bug about that?


6. Formatting of the paragraph environment was lost (I guess it's 
too deeply nested to have a corresponding h level?)


I forgot to include a tag for those. I've just fixed that for the next 
release. See

http://git.lyx.org/?p=lyx.git;a=commit;h=c6a08bc4421c960dc8148a95eb68ba90c2f95ff5
for the commit.

Sorry to ask for so much bug-filing. With 2.1 on the horizon, I can't do 
very much right now, as Vincent has trunk pretty locked.


Richard

Re: Lyx2doc: was Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

[Richard Heck]

On 06/11/2013 02:03 PM, Steve Litt wrote:

On Tue, 11 Jun 2013 10:32:12 -0400
Richard Heck rgh...@lyx.org wrote:


On 06/10/2013 06:05 PM, Steve Litt wrote:

These days, it could be used as a front end to anything with the
proper styles defined, and the proper converter. So the same LyX
file could be used to output LaTeX, MSWord doc, XHTML, HTML, simple
HTML, or who knows what else.

To more easily accommodate this, it seems to me like layout files
should be split into an input side and an output side, with the
output side capable of multiple output formats. So the input side
might look something like this:

CharStyle MyEmph
Font
Shape Italic
EndFont

if outputtype == latex
 outputName latexlayout.layout/myemphL
 outputType Command
elsif outputtype == simplehtml
 outputName simphtmllayout.layout/myemphH
 outputType InlineTag
else outputtype == msword
 outputName winwordlayout.layout/myemphW
 outputType CharacterStyle
End

Environments would be similar.

Ideally it would be designed so that it doesn't syntax check inside
the output type's it's not. That way you can develop one output
type at a time without getting errors from the ones you haven't
developed yet.

This can already be done, more or less. That is, I can't imagine
anything you'd want to do, as far as XHTML export goes, that isn't
provided for in the layout files.

Indeed, I am sufficiently confident about this that I'd be surprised
if it were not possible to build the sort of simple HTML export you
want simply by writing a new layout file.

Thanks Richard,

When I tried to do this with my layout file, it failed miserably. Try
as I might, I couldn't get Standard to map to p, nor could I get
Section to map to h1, etc.


If you want to send me your layout file, I will get it working.

Richard

Re: the dreaded docx export - WAS: Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

[Ray Rashif]

On 11 June 2013 14:15, Rainer M Krug rai...@krugs.de wrote:

 These are just ideas from my side, but to try to incorporate pandoc
 into LyX in the same way as LaTeX is Incorporated, would make LyX even
 more powerful then it is already now.


I agree. In fact, I think this affects me more as an editor, where I have
to collaborate with clients often with a format they're comfortable with.
Recently I've been using pandoc markdown to write stuff and then outputting
to Word, but the back and forth is really becoming annoying as the other
way around is not a painless route.

For a start, both RTF and DOC formats have some inherent issues. I took
some time to briefly benchmark this and came to the conclusion that they're
not really worth the effort. Try converting a simple RTF or DOC file with
one section and some basic formatting (bold, italic). Abiword, OpenOffice,
Ted -- all had problems. However, DOCX is a different story.

I believe that if we define the simplest use case we are satisfied with we
can come up with a good solution for DOCX, which is a (slightly) documented
format (at least, better than RTF or DOC). Rob Oakes did some work on DOC
[1] but it still involves a number of loops and caveats. You can also find
some programmatic examples for writing DOCX on the web [2] and an HTML
converter. [3]

I wanted to survey the LyX and LaTeX community for some opinions on this,
perhaps to get an idea as to the demand for some research into this area.
The project would do some empirical comparisons of the workarounds and
propose at most two or three solutions that work (integration with Pandoc,
or converintg directly to a simpler and well-supported language).

The emphasis would be on retaining as much semantic meaning as possible,
across different levels of complexity, starting from the very basic. I am
not aware of any similar academic or non-academic effort, but this could
also be a long blog post.


[1] http://blog.oak-tree.us/index.php/2010/05/14/msword-lyx-import
[2] http://www.jackreichert.com/2012/11/09/how-to-convert-docx-to-html/
[3] http://www.textfixer.com/html/convert-word-to-html.php


--
GPG/PGP ID: C0711BF1

Re: the dreaded docx export - WAS: Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

[stefano franchi]

On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 2:09 PM, Ray Rashif schivmeis...@gmail.com wrote:

 On 11 June 2013 14:15, Rainer M Krug rai...@krugs.de wrote:

 I wanted to survey the LyX and LaTeX community for some opinions on this,
 perhaps to get an idea as to the demand for some research into this area.
 The project would do some empirical comparisons of the workarounds and
 propose at most two or three solutions that work (integration with Pandoc,
 or converintg directly to a simpler and well-supported language).

 The emphasis would be on retaining as much semantic meaning as possible,
 across different levels of complexity, starting from the very basic. I am
 not aware of any similar academic or non-academic effort, but this could
 also be a long blog post.



HI Ray,

I am not sure about what you're asking, exactly? Perhaps a survey of the
different lyx-doc(x) use cases that current lyx users care most about? Or
rather a definition of the simplest yet still useful use case we can
imagine? If the former, I would suggest starting a page on our wiki,
perhaps as a possible GSoC 2014 project, as a repository of useful cases
people could refer to. If the latter...well I'd need further info because
I'm not really sure what you're aiming for.

Cheers,

Stefano
-- 
__
Stefano Franchi
Associate Research Professor
Department of Hispanic StudiesPh:   +1 (979) 845-2125
Texas AM University  Fax:  +1 (979) 845-6421
College Station, Texas, USA

stef...@tamu.edu
http://stefano.cleinias.org

Re: the dreaded docx export - WAS: Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

[Ray Rashif]

On 12 June 2013 03:57, stefano franchi stefano.fran...@gmail.com wrote:




 On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 2:09 PM, Ray Rashif schivmeis...@gmail.comwrote:

 On 11 June 2013 14:15, Rainer M Krug rai...@krugs.de wrote:

 I wanted to survey the LyX and LaTeX community for some opinions on this,
 perhaps to get an idea as to the demand for some research into this area.
 The project would do some empirical comparisons of the workarounds and
 propose at most two or three solutions that work (integration with Pandoc,
 or converintg directly to a simpler and well-supported language).

 The emphasis would be on retaining as much semantic meaning as possible,
 across different levels of complexity, starting from the very basic. I am
 not aware of any similar academic or non-academic effort, but this could
 also be a long blog post.



 HI Ray,

 I am not sure about what you're asking, exactly? Perhaps a survey of the
 different lyx-doc(x) use cases that current lyx users care most about? Or
 rather a definition of the simplest yet still useful use case we can
 imagine? If the former, I would suggest starting a page on our wiki,
 perhaps as a possible GSoC 2014 project, as a repository of useful cases
 people could refer to. If the latter...well I'd need further info because
 I'm not really sure what you're aiming for.


Hey Stefano

Sorry for the lack of clarity there -- probably a mistake of dumping one or
two things I had on my mind without context. I was referring to
cross-platform document interoperability for collaborative writing and
editing, not really LyX-specific but very much related, and not really a
new issue.

If there are people indeed affected by this, and they would like some
documentation, then I'd like to put in some time to review current issues
and strategies, and produce working code to convert a non-friendly format
into a pluggable one (into LyX, LaTeX, Pandoc) for _only_ the use cases
that matter most (according to the target audience; writers, editors,
fiction or non-fiction).

Often times I have found myself dealing with only a subset of formatting
tools during the first phase of a write-up, in most cases a draft, and I
would often make the mistake of thinking they're simple enough to not break
collaboration. I would assume many of our workflows start with sections,
followed by emphasis (boldface and italics), then simple lists (itemized
and enumerated), footnotes, and finally citations.

Personally I have never needed anything more complex like cross-references,
tables and images -- I always schedule them for later phases because they
interrupt the workflow, although I do make space for them informally (using
characters I can easily search for). At the end of the day, what I have to
deal with is a DOC or DOCX file with semantic comments (that are not
understood by most other tools), no matter where or how I start.

== TL;DR ==
What I'd like is to solve for the missing input formats in e.g. Pandoc. It
does not support RTF, DOC, or DOCX, but supports HTML, which Word does not
output cleanly. Either way, it's something I have had in my mind for some
time, but too busy to investigate or ask around methodically. Getting an
idea of the demand for a solution in this case could force me to invest the
time.

Inspiration: http://gio.act.gov.au/2013/03/13/document-conversion-markdown/


--
GPG/PGP ID: C0711BF1

Re: Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

[Stephen George]

On 12/06/2013 1:02 AM, Dr Eberhard Lisse wrote:

of course he's right, but then he can google what DILLIGAF stands
for :-)-O

No he can't, with comments like
/open source programs have great appeal for people who want to tinker 
with computers but almost none for those who actually want to do 
something./


He would not be able to use Google as it is running open source 
programs, and he wouldn't use it as it's against his principles.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_platform
///Servers are //commodity-class 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodity_computingx86 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X86PCs 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_computer//running customized 
versions of //Linux http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux//./


Further to that, finding a book with good amazon ranking would also be 
useless, as Amazon is also running open source, so he also would NOT use 
that service.

http://news.cnet.com/2100-1001-275155.html

In fact he probably doesn't do much web surfing with the open source 
Apache dominating the HTTP internet server market

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apache_HTTP_Server
/Since April 1996 Apache has been the most popular HTTP server software 
in use. As of December 2012 Apache was estimated to serve 63.7% of all 
active //websites http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Website//and 58.49% of 
the top servers across all domains//

/
There is a big chance the writers forum were he made those comments is 
also powered by an open source program.


Sorry for the outburst, I just can't believe how polarised some people 
are against open source programs.
Personally I dont think you should feed him with fuel, just let it drop 
and continue on with your own life using the programs you enjoy, I dont 
think you have anything to prove. (but I do understand the sense of 
outrage after hearing the comments)


Steve

the dreaded docx export - WAS: Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

[Rainer M Krug]

stefano franchi stefano.fran...@gmail.com writes:

 On Mon, Jun 10, 2013 at 1:44 PM, Les Denham lden...@hal-pc.org wrote:

 On Sun, 9 Jun 2013 10:32:20 -0500
 stefano franchi stefano.fran...@gmail.com wrote:

  I'm willing to bet you won't find such an example. The reason is
  simple: more or less by definition a best-seller is book produced by
  a major commercial publishing house supported by a consistent
  marketing effort, heavily edited by a professional editor and laid
  out by a (team of ) typesetters according to a carefully designed
  house-specific graphic design project.

 While that is the traditional definition of a best seller, it is
 becoming less and less relevant.


 You may be right. As I said, I'm a pessimist. Yet, I've still to meet the
 production editor of a major publishing house who would accept a manuscript
 in LyX or Latex formats. Whereas I've met editors willing to accept a
 *paper* manuscript and have it retyped in Word.


 I use LyX rather than Word (or its clones) because it allows me to
 produce a presentable document in about half the time it takes with
 Word. This is emphatically the case if it is a document requiring a
 detailed table of contents, an index, or a bibliography, or if it
 contains figures, cross-references or footnotes.


 I guess that's the very reason why we all use LyX. I certainly wouldn't be
 as productive in Word. But those of us working in the Humanities (at least
 some Humanities) then have to budget some time to convert the output to
 Word. Nothing else is accepted. I tend to think best-sellers authors'
 position is closer to us than to a physicist's, a mathematician's or a
 logician's. That's why a minimal and yet reliable LyX-to-Doc converter---a
 topic we've repeatedly discussed on the list---would make such a difference
 to the non-technical user, IMHO.


This developed into a very interesting and I guess useful discussion -
thanks.
And, as you said, it brings back the question of export to docx.

I think I mentioned it already, but I made quite good experiences with
using pandoc[1]:

,
| #
| # FORMATS SECTION ##
| #
| \format msdocx docx Microsoft docx  
/usr/share/playonlinux/playonlinux --run \Microsoft Word 2010\ 
/usr/share/playonlinux/playonlinux --run \Microsoft Word 2010\ 
document,menu=export
| #
| # CONVERTERS SECTION ##
| #
| \converter xhtml msdocx pandoc -o $$o $$i 
`

it is most definitely not perfect, but for reltively simple documents,
it works nicely. I used it to convert a handbook with pictures and
references, but I don't think footnotes, for my co-authors to review and
for sending to layouting.

There are definitely aspects which would need improvement here, but this
was the beast way I could find. 

To improve the export, one could go two ways: improve an existing tool
(e.g. pandoc) to be used as the universal converter, to possibly even
include .lyx as an input format, to produce satisfying non-tex and
non-(x)html outputs, or to write an own tool. 

The question is, how interested people are and how one could get this
(internal ox external to LyX) converter.

I would guess, as not much has materialized after the previous
discussions, that the problem is, that the ones interested in this
feature, do have no time or not enough expertise (myself) to do it. So
how could one still make any progress in this feature? 

I like the idea from Steve, as seeing LyX as a frontend for different
backends for export, where the LaTeX backend is the authoritative one.

And in my personal opinion, it would be a very useful to investigate
pandoc further, as it already has a variety of output formats.
,
| - HTML formats :: XHTML, HTML5, and HTML slide shows using Slidy, Slideous, 
S5, or DZSlides.
| - Word processor formats :: Microsoft Word docx, OpenOffice/LibreOffice ODT, 
OpenDocument XML
| - Ebooks :: EPUB version 2 or 3, FictionBook2
| - Documentation formats :: DocBook, GNU TexInfo, Groff man pages
| - TeX formats :: LaTeX, ConTeXt, LaTeX Beamer slides
| - PDF :: via LaTeX
| - Lightweight markup formats :: Markdown, reStructuredText, AsciiDoc, 
MediaWiki markup, Emacs Org-Mode, Textile
`

These are just ideas from my side, but to try to incorporate pandoc
into LyX in the same way as LaTeX is Incorporated, would make LyX even
more powerful then it is already now.

Cheers,

Rainer



 Cheers,

 S.



Footnotes: 
[1]  http://johnmacfarlane.net/pandoc/

-- 
Rainer M. Krug

email: RMKrugatgmaildotcom


pgpphOicpRgMH.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: Lyx2doc: was Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

[Richard Heck]

On 06/10/2013 06:05 PM, Steve Litt wrote:

These days, it could be used as a front end to anything with the proper
styles defined, and the proper converter. So the same LyX file could be
used to output LaTeX, MSWord doc, XHTML, HTML, simple HTML, or who
knows what else.

To more easily accommodate this, it seems to me like layout files
should be split into an input side and an output side, with the output
side capable of multiple output formats. So the input side might look
something like this:

CharStyle MyEmph
Font
Shape Italic
EndFont

if outputtype == latex
outputName  latexlayout.layout/myemphL
outputType  Command
elsif outputtype == simplehtml
outputName  simphtmllayout.layout/myemphH
outputType  InlineTag
else outputtype == msword
outputName  winwordlayout.layout/myemphW
outputType  CharacterStyle
End

Environments would be similar.

Ideally it would be designed so that it doesn't syntax check inside the
output type's it's not. That way you can develop one output type at a
time without getting errors from the ones you haven't developed yet.


This can already be done, more or less. That is, I can't imagine 
anything you'd want to do, as far as XHTML export goes, that isn't 
provided for in the layout files.


Indeed, I am sufficiently confident about this that I'd be surprised if 
it were not possible to build the sort of simple HTML export you want 
simply by writing a new layout file.


Richard



It seems to me that something like this would be a logical way of
turning LyX into a universal front end while changing very little of
LyX's core code.

I'm not a good enough programmer to do this in C++, so feel free to view
this suggestion with some healthy skepticism.

Thanks,

SteveT

Steve Litt*  http://www.troubleshooters.com/
Troubleshooting Training  *  Human Performance

Re: Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

[Dr Eberhard Lisse]

Steve,

of course he's right, but then he can google what DILLIGAF stands
for :-)-O

I run a Obstetrician and Gynaecologist's practice for all documents,
letters, reports, some recreated forms, prescriptions, presentations
(beamer and recently discovered beamerposter), statistics (SWEAVE)
and typed my wife's thesis using LyX and BibDesk.

I like NeoOffice (OO on Mac), but only so that I can export to LaTeX
and from there to LyX.

However, I find it as difficult as you to convince people that they
should make it easy on themselves and produce quality output with
minimal effort :-)-O. They are just too lazy...

el


on 2013-06-09 15:36 Steve Litt said the following:
[...]
 ===
 As for Lyx, you need to know that, with very few exceptions —
 none of which immediately come to mind — open source programs
 have great appeal for people who want to tinker with computers but
 almost none for those who actually want to do something.  Such
 apps tend to have butt ugly interfaces and stupid names like Lyx
 and Snort and Gimp and Phlegm.  Last I saw, Lyx wasn't even
 WYSIWYG, for crying out loud.  Forewarned is forewarned.  Or
 something like that.
 ===
[...]

Re: Lyx2doc: was Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

[stefano franchi]

On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 9:32 AM, Richard Heck rgh...@lyx.org wrote:

 On 06/10/2013 06:05 PM, Steve Litt wrote:

 This can already be done, more or less. That is, I can't imagine anything
 you'd want to do, as far as XHTML export goes, that isn't provided for in
 the layout files.

 Indeed, I am sufficiently confident about this that I'd be surprised if it
 were not possible to build the sort of simple HTML export you want simply
 by writing a new layout file



Richard,

I just spent the last hour converting a short (2800 words)  lyx/pdf file
into Word. Could you tell me where I should look to fix the problems I
detail below?

Setup: Lyx + memoir + biblatex = Biber. Usually typeset to pdf with
lualatex. . File contained two images (in floats, reduced from the
originals by latex) Archlinux box with TL2012

I tried the elyxer routes (both regular and html(word)) and they failed
with too many errors to report here. I then exported to xhtml, imported
into abiword and exported to doc format. Opened it it libreoffice for final
cleanup.

Here are the problems I found. My guess is that part of these are LyX/XHMTL
issues and part are due to AbiWord.

1. Bibliography did not come over and was just ignored. I had to copy and
paste from the pdf output. Biblatex issue?

2. Footnote text came over but not as a footnote. It was just pasted in the
correct location but as a regular text.

3. Latex special character issues: em-dash as triple hyphen came over as
a triple hyphen and not as an em-dash. tilde as non-breaking space (I
routinely use that in references) came over as tilde.

4. Images were pasted more or less where the floats were inserted, at full
original size.

5. Captions followed the images as regular text.

6. Formatting of the paragraph environment was lost (I guess it's too
deeply nested to have a corresponding h level?)

Are these issues that a proper layout file would sort out?


Cheers,

Stefano

-- 
__
Stefano Franchi
Associate Research Professor
Department of Hispanic StudiesPh:   +1 (979) 845-2125
Texas AM University  Fax:  +1 (979) 845-6421
College Station, Texas, USA

stef...@tamu.edu
http://stefano.cleinias.org

Re: Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

[Wolfgang Keller]

 But I can tell you this guy is going to come back and say he's a great
 and mighty best selling author, ask how many books have I sold. While
 books provide a part of my income, I have no best sellers, either now
 or in the past.
 
 So, when he comes back and asks that, it would be *wonderful* to give
 the writer's list one or more best seller books (I think something
 with an Amazon rank of less than 5000 would do it), to refute his
 statement, by counterexample.

First, LyX is just a GUI, a sort-of-IDE for LaTeX, even though it uses
its own file format. And you would never make a distinction between the
various LaTeX IDEs or editors or front-ends or...

Next, LaTeX (and consequently, any of the various front-ends for it) is
*the* publishing tool within the scientific world. Obviously, no one
would write pulp fiction or non-fiction bestseller books with it,
since those authors aren't scientists.

And concerning .doc as a content exchange format; During my last 25
years of experience with writing documents I have *never*, repeat
*never* seen anyone re-use from a .doc document any content beyond bare
naked unformatted raw text. Even if it was for re-use *within* MS Word.

Paste as unformatted text is the only possibility of content re-use
that the spaghetti-format of Word effectively allows. No matter what
effort you deploy in preparing templates with styles and whatnot - it
won't work, ever.

Sincerely,

Wolfgang

Re: Lyx2doc: was Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

[Steve Litt]

On Tue, 11 Jun 2013 10:32:12 -0400
Richard Heck rgh...@lyx.org wrote:

 On 06/10/2013 06:05 PM, Steve Litt wrote:
  These days, it could be used as a front end to anything with the
  proper styles defined, and the proper converter. So the same LyX
  file could be used to output LaTeX, MSWord doc, XHTML, HTML, simple
  HTML, or who knows what else.
 
  To more easily accommodate this, it seems to me like layout files
  should be split into an input side and an output side, with the
  output side capable of multiple output formats. So the input side
  might look something like this:
 
  CharStyle MyEmph
  Font
  Shape Italic
  EndFont
 
  if outputtype == latex
  outputName  latexlayout.layout/myemphL
  outputType  Command
  elsif outputtype == simplehtml
  outputName  simphtmllayout.layout/myemphH
  outputType  InlineTag
  else outputtype == msword
  outputName  winwordlayout.layout/myemphW
  outputType  CharacterStyle
  End
 
  Environments would be similar.
 
  Ideally it would be designed so that it doesn't syntax check inside
  the output type's it's not. That way you can develop one output
  type at a time without getting errors from the ones you haven't
  developed yet.
 
 This can already be done, more or less. That is, I can't imagine 
 anything you'd want to do, as far as XHTML export goes, that isn't 
 provided for in the layout files.
 
 Indeed, I am sufficiently confident about this that I'd be surprised
 if it were not possible to build the sort of simple HTML export you
 want simply by writing a new layout file.

Thanks Richard,

When I tried to do this with my layout file, it failed miserably. Try
as I might, I couldn't get Standard to map to p, nor could I get
Section to map to h1, etc.

SteveT

Steve Litt*  http://www.troubleshooters.com/
Troubleshooting Training  *  Human Performance

Re: Lyx2doc: was Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

[Richard Heck]

On 06/11/2013 01:18 PM, stefano franchi wrote:



Here are the problems I found. My guess is that part of these are 
LyX/XHMTL issues and part are due to AbiWord.


1. Bibliography did not come over and was just ignored. I had to copy 
and paste from the pdf output. Biblatex issue?


Probably. If there's no BibTeX inset, then the bibliography will not be 
produced, and I guess you don't have that for BibLaTeX, except maybe in 
a note. So this is really an effect of the fact that we have no formal 
support for BibLaTeX.


2. Footnote text came over but not as a footnote. It was just pasted 
in the correct location but as a regular text.


Footnotes are just exported as div's, with class=footnote, so AbiWord 
or whatever will not recognize it as a footnote. There's not really any 
HTML equivalent of a footnote, so I'm not sure there is much to be done 
here.


3. Latex special character issues: em-dash as triple hyphen came 
over as a triple hyphen and not as an em-dash. tilde as non-breaking 
space (I routinely use that in references) came over as tilde.


The em-dash SHOULD be exported as such. There's code in 
Paragraph::simpleLyXHTMLOnePar() that is supposed to handle this. It 
works for me in a simple test document.


The tilde is a different story. Can you file a bug about that? We do 
some LaTeX -- HTML conversion here, handling things like \u, so I just 
need to add handling of ~.


4. Images were pasted more or less where the floats were inserted, at 
full original size.


Another bug. I suppose we should scale them somehow? Please post a bug 
about this, too.


There's not really anything to do other than put the images where they 
are inserted. HTML has no concept of a page, so the placement options 
make no sense.



5. Captions followed the images as regular text.


Similar to the footnote problem, I think. Probably we should switch to 
using the new figure tag and the associated figcaption tag. Can you 
also file a bug about that?


6. Formatting of the paragraph environment was lost (I guess it's 
too deeply nested to have a corresponding h level?)


I forgot to include a tag for those. I've just fixed that for the next 
release. See

http://git.lyx.org/?p=lyx.git;a=commit;h=c6a08bc4421c960dc8148a95eb68ba90c2f95ff5
for the commit.

Sorry to ask for so much bug-filing. With 2.1 on the horizon, I can't do 
very much right now, as Vincent has trunk pretty locked.


Richard

Re: Lyx2doc: was Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

[Richard Heck]

On 06/11/2013 02:03 PM, Steve Litt wrote:

On Tue, 11 Jun 2013 10:32:12 -0400
Richard Heck rgh...@lyx.org wrote:


On 06/10/2013 06:05 PM, Steve Litt wrote:

These days, it could be used as a front end to anything with the
proper styles defined, and the proper converter. So the same LyX
file could be used to output LaTeX, MSWord doc, XHTML, HTML, simple
HTML, or who knows what else.

To more easily accommodate this, it seems to me like layout files
should be split into an input side and an output side, with the
output side capable of multiple output formats. So the input side
might look something like this:

CharStyle MyEmph
Font
Shape Italic
EndFont

if outputtype == latex
 outputName latexlayout.layout/myemphL
 outputType Command
elsif outputtype == simplehtml
 outputName simphtmllayout.layout/myemphH
 outputType InlineTag
else outputtype == msword
 outputName winwordlayout.layout/myemphW
 outputType CharacterStyle
End

Environments would be similar.

Ideally it would be designed so that it doesn't syntax check inside
the output type's it's not. That way you can develop one output
type at a time without getting errors from the ones you haven't
developed yet.

This can already be done, more or less. That is, I can't imagine
anything you'd want to do, as far as XHTML export goes, that isn't
provided for in the layout files.

Indeed, I am sufficiently confident about this that I'd be surprised
if it were not possible to build the sort of simple HTML export you
want simply by writing a new layout file.

Thanks Richard,

When I tried to do this with my layout file, it failed miserably. Try
as I might, I couldn't get Standard to map to p, nor could I get
Section to map to h1, etc.


If you want to send me your layout file, I will get it working.

Richard

Re: the dreaded docx export - WAS: Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

[Ray Rashif]

On 11 June 2013 14:15, Rainer M Krug rai...@krugs.de wrote:

 These are just ideas from my side, but to try to incorporate pandoc
 into LyX in the same way as LaTeX is Incorporated, would make LyX even
 more powerful then it is already now.


I agree. In fact, I think this affects me more as an editor, where I have
to collaborate with clients often with a format they're comfortable with.
Recently I've been using pandoc markdown to write stuff and then outputting
to Word, but the back and forth is really becoming annoying as the other
way around is not a painless route.

For a start, both RTF and DOC formats have some inherent issues. I took
some time to briefly benchmark this and came to the conclusion that they're
not really worth the effort. Try converting a simple RTF or DOC file with
one section and some basic formatting (bold, italic). Abiword, OpenOffice,
Ted -- all had problems. However, DOCX is a different story.

I believe that if we define the simplest use case we are satisfied with we
can come up with a good solution for DOCX, which is a (slightly) documented
format (at least, better than RTF or DOC). Rob Oakes did some work on DOC
[1] but it still involves a number of loops and caveats. You can also find
some programmatic examples for writing DOCX on the web [2] and an HTML
converter. [3]

I wanted to survey the LyX and LaTeX community for some opinions on this,
perhaps to get an idea as to the demand for some research into this area.
The project would do some empirical comparisons of the workarounds and
propose at most two or three solutions that work (integration with Pandoc,
or converintg directly to a simpler and well-supported language).

The emphasis would be on retaining as much semantic meaning as possible,
across different levels of complexity, starting from the very basic. I am
not aware of any similar academic or non-academic effort, but this could
also be a long blog post.


[1] http://blog.oak-tree.us/index.php/2010/05/14/msword-lyx-import
[2] http://www.jackreichert.com/2012/11/09/how-to-convert-docx-to-html/
[3] http://www.textfixer.com/html/convert-word-to-html.php


--
GPG/PGP ID: C0711BF1

Re: the dreaded docx export - WAS: Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

[stefano franchi]

On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 2:09 PM, Ray Rashif schivmeis...@gmail.com wrote:

 On 11 June 2013 14:15, Rainer M Krug rai...@krugs.de wrote:

 I wanted to survey the LyX and LaTeX community for some opinions on this,
 perhaps to get an idea as to the demand for some research into this area.
 The project would do some empirical comparisons of the workarounds and
 propose at most two or three solutions that work (integration with Pandoc,
 or converintg directly to a simpler and well-supported language).

 The emphasis would be on retaining as much semantic meaning as possible,
 across different levels of complexity, starting from the very basic. I am
 not aware of any similar academic or non-academic effort, but this could
 also be a long blog post.



HI Ray,

I am not sure about what you're asking, exactly? Perhaps a survey of the
different lyx-doc(x) use cases that current lyx users care most about? Or
rather a definition of the simplest yet still useful use case we can
imagine? If the former, I would suggest starting a page on our wiki,
perhaps as a possible GSoC 2014 project, as a repository of useful cases
people could refer to. If the latter...well I'd need further info because
I'm not really sure what you're aiming for.

Cheers,

Stefano
-- 
__
Stefano Franchi
Associate Research Professor
Department of Hispanic StudiesPh:   +1 (979) 845-2125
Texas AM University  Fax:  +1 (979) 845-6421
College Station, Texas, USA

stef...@tamu.edu
http://stefano.cleinias.org

Re: the dreaded docx export - WAS: Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

[Ray Rashif]

On 12 June 2013 03:57, stefano franchi stefano.fran...@gmail.com wrote:




 On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 2:09 PM, Ray Rashif schivmeis...@gmail.comwrote:

 On 11 June 2013 14:15, Rainer M Krug rai...@krugs.de wrote:

 I wanted to survey the LyX and LaTeX community for some opinions on this,
 perhaps to get an idea as to the demand for some research into this area.
 The project would do some empirical comparisons of the workarounds and
 propose at most two or three solutions that work (integration with Pandoc,
 or converintg directly to a simpler and well-supported language).

 The emphasis would be on retaining as much semantic meaning as possible,
 across different levels of complexity, starting from the very basic. I am
 not aware of any similar academic or non-academic effort, but this could
 also be a long blog post.



 HI Ray,

 I am not sure about what you're asking, exactly? Perhaps a survey of the
 different lyx-doc(x) use cases that current lyx users care most about? Or
 rather a definition of the simplest yet still useful use case we can
 imagine? If the former, I would suggest starting a page on our wiki,
 perhaps as a possible GSoC 2014 project, as a repository of useful cases
 people could refer to. If the latter...well I'd need further info because
 I'm not really sure what you're aiming for.


Hey Stefano

Sorry for the lack of clarity there -- probably a mistake of dumping one or
two things I had on my mind without context. I was referring to
cross-platform document interoperability for collaborative writing and
editing, not really LyX-specific but very much related, and not really a
new issue.

If there are people indeed affected by this, and they would like some
documentation, then I'd like to put in some time to review current issues
and strategies, and produce working code to convert a non-friendly format
into a pluggable one (into LyX, LaTeX, Pandoc) for _only_ the use cases
that matter most (according to the target audience; writers, editors,
fiction or non-fiction).

Often times I have found myself dealing with only a subset of formatting
tools during the first phase of a write-up, in most cases a draft, and I
would often make the mistake of thinking they're simple enough to not break
collaboration. I would assume many of our workflows start with sections,
followed by emphasis (boldface and italics), then simple lists (itemized
and enumerated), footnotes, and finally citations.

Personally I have never needed anything more complex like cross-references,
tables and images -- I always schedule them for later phases because they
interrupt the workflow, although I do make space for them informally (using
characters I can easily search for). At the end of the day, what I have to
deal with is a DOC or DOCX file with semantic comments (that are not
understood by most other tools), no matter where or how I start.

== TL;DR ==
What I'd like is to solve for the missing input formats in e.g. Pandoc. It
does not support RTF, DOC, or DOCX, but supports HTML, which Word does not
output cleanly. Either way, it's something I have had in my mind for some
time, but too busy to investigate or ask around methodically. Getting an
idea of the demand for a solution in this case could force me to invest the
time.

Inspiration: http://gio.act.gov.au/2013/03/13/document-conversion-markdown/


--
GPG/PGP ID: C0711BF1

Re: Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

[Stephen George]

On 12/06/2013 1:02 AM, Dr Eberhard Lisse wrote:

of course he's right, but then he can google what DILLIGAF stands
for :-)-O

No he can't, with comments like
/open source programs have great appeal for people who want to tinker 
with computers but almost none for those who actually want to do 
something./


He would not be able to use Google as it is running open source 
programs, and he wouldn't use it as it's against his principles.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_platform
///Servers are //commodity-class 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodity_computingx86 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X86PCs 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_computer//running customized 
versions of //Linux http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux//./


Further to that, finding a book with good amazon ranking would also be 
useless, as Amazon is also running open source, so he also would NOT use 
that service.

http://news.cnet.com/2100-1001-275155.html

In fact he probably doesn't do much web surfing with the open source 
Apache dominating the HTTP internet server market

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apache_HTTP_Server
/Since April 1996 Apache has been the most popular HTTP server software 
in use. As of December 2012 Apache was estimated to serve 63.7% of all 
active //websites http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Website//and 58.49% of 
the top servers across all domains//

/
There is a big chance the writers forum were he made those comments is 
also powered by an open source program.


Sorry for the outburst, I just can't believe how polarised some people 
are against open source programs.
Personally I dont think you should feed him with fuel, just let it drop 
and continue on with your own life using the programs you enjoy, I dont 
think you have anything to prove. (but I do understand the sense of 
outrage after hearing the comments)


Steve

the dreaded docx export - WAS: Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

[Rainer M Krug]

stefano franchi  writes:

> On Mon, Jun 10, 2013 at 1:44 PM, Les Denham  wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 9 Jun 2013 10:32:20 -0500
>> stefano franchi  wrote:
>>
>> > I'm willing to bet you won't find such an example. The reason is
>> > simple: more or less by definition a best-seller is book produced by
>> > a major commercial publishing house supported by a consistent
>> > marketing effort, heavily edited by a professional editor and laid
>> > out by a (team of ) typesetters according to a carefully designed
>> > house-specific graphic design project.
>>
>> While that is the traditional definition of a best seller, it is
>> becoming less and less relevant.
>>
>
> You may be right. As I said, I'm a pessimist. Yet, I've still to meet the
> production editor of a major publishing house who would accept a manuscript
> in LyX or Latex formats. Whereas I've met editors willing to accept a
> *paper* manuscript and have it retyped in Word.
>
>
>> I use LyX rather than Word (or its clones) because it allows me to
>> produce a presentable document in about half the time it takes with
>> Word. This is emphatically the case if it is a document requiring a
>> detailed table of contents, an index, or a bibliography, or if it
>> contains figures, cross-references or footnotes.
>>
>>
> I guess that's the very reason why we all use LyX. I certainly wouldn't be
> as productive in Word. But those of us working in the Humanities (at least
> some Humanities) then have to budget some time to convert the output to
> Word. Nothing else is accepted. I tend to think best-sellers authors'
> position is closer to us than to a physicist's, a mathematician's or a
> logician's. That's why a minimal and yet reliable LyX-to-Doc converter---a
> topic we've repeatedly discussed on the list---would make such a difference
> to the non-technical user, IMHO.
>

This developed into a very interesting and I guess useful discussion -
thanks.
And, as you said, it brings back the question of export to docx.

I think I mentioned it already, but I made quite good experiences with
using pandoc[1]:

,
| #
| # FORMATS SECTION ##
| #
| \format "msdocx" "docx" "Microsoft docx" "" 
"/usr/share/playonlinux/playonlinux --run \"Microsoft Word 2010\"" 
"/usr/share/playonlinux/playonlinux --run \"Microsoft Word 2010\"" 
"document,menu=export"
| #
| # CONVERTERS SECTION ##
| #
| \converter "xhtml" "msdocx" "pandoc -o $$o $$i" ""
`

it is most definitely not perfect, but for reltively simple documents,
it works nicely. I used it to convert a handbook with pictures and
references, but I don't think footnotes, for my co-authors to review and
for sending to layouting.

There are definitely aspects which would need improvement here, but this
was the beast way I could find. 

To improve the export, one could go two ways: improve an existing tool
(e.g. pandoc) to be used as the universal converter, to possibly even
include .lyx as an input format, to produce satisfying non-tex and
non-(x)html outputs, or to write an own tool. 

The question is, how interested people are and how one could get this
(internal ox external to LyX) converter.

I would guess, as not much has materialized after the previous
discussions, that the problem is, that the ones interested in this
feature, do have no time or not enough expertise (myself) to do it. So
how could one still make any progress in this feature? 

I like the idea from Steve, as seeing LyX as a frontend for different
backends for export, where the LaTeX backend is the authoritative one.

And in my personal opinion, it would be a very useful to investigate
pandoc further, as it already has a variety of output formats.
,
| - HTML formats :: XHTML, HTML5, and HTML slide shows using Slidy, Slideous, 
S5, or DZSlides.
| - Word processor formats :: Microsoft Word docx, OpenOffice/LibreOffice ODT, 
OpenDocument XML
| - Ebooks :: EPUB version 2 or 3, FictionBook2
| - Documentation formats :: DocBook, GNU TexInfo, Groff man pages
| - TeX formats :: LaTeX, ConTeXt, LaTeX Beamer slides
| - PDF :: via LaTeX
| - Lightweight markup formats :: Markdown, reStructuredText, AsciiDoc, 
MediaWiki markup, Emacs Org-Mode, Textile
`

These are just ideas from my side, but to try to incorporate pandoc
into LyX in the same way as LaTeX is Incorporated, would make LyX even
more powerful then it is already now.

Cheers,

Rainer

>
>
> Cheers,
>
> S.



Footnotes: 
[1]  http://johnmacfarlane.net/pandoc/

-- 
Rainer M. Krug

email: RMKruggmailcom


pgpphOicpRgMH.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: Lyx2doc: was Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

[Richard Heck]

On 06/10/2013 06:05 PM, Steve Litt wrote:

These days, it could be used as a front end to anything with the proper
styles defined, and the proper converter. So the same LyX file could be
used to output LaTeX, MSWord doc, XHTML, HTML, simple HTML, or who
knows what else.

To more easily accommodate this, it seems to me like layout files
should be split into an input side and an output side, with the output
side capable of multiple output formats. So the input side might look
something like this:

CharStyle MyEmph
Font
Shape Italic
EndFont

if outputtype == latex
outputName  latexlayout.layout/myemphL
outputType  Command
elsif outputtype == simplehtml
outputName  simphtmllayout.layout/myemphH
outputType  InlineTag
else outputtype == msword
outputName  winwordlayout.layout/myemphW
outputType  CharacterStyle
End

Environments would be similar.

Ideally it would be designed so that it doesn't syntax check inside the
output type's it's not. That way you can develop one output type at a
time without getting errors from the ones you haven't developed yet.


This can already be done, more or less. That is, I can't imagine 
anything you'd want to do, as far as XHTML export goes, that isn't 
provided for in the layout files.


Indeed, I am sufficiently confident about this that I'd be surprised if 
it were not possible to build the sort of simple HTML export you want 
simply by writing a new layout file.


Richard



It seems to me that something like this would be a logical way of
turning LyX into a universal front end while changing very little of
LyX's core code.

I'm not a good enough programmer to do this in C++, so feel free to view
this suggestion with some healthy skepticism.

Thanks,

SteveT

Steve Litt*  http://www.troubleshooters.com/
Troubleshooting Training  *  Human Performance

Re: Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

[Dr Eberhard Lisse]

Steve,

of course he's right, but then he can google what DILLIGAF stands
for :-)-O

I run a Obstetrician and Gynaecologist's practice for all documents,
letters, reports, some recreated forms, prescriptions, presentations
(beamer and recently discovered beamerposter), statistics (SWEAVE)
and typed my wife's thesis using LyX and BibDesk.

I like NeoOffice (OO on Mac), but only so that I can export to LaTeX
and from there to LyX.

However, I find it as difficult as you to convince people that they
should make it easy on themselves and produce quality output with
minimal effort :-)-O. They are just too lazy...

el


on 2013-06-09 15:36 Steve Litt said the following:
[...]
> ===
> "As for Lyx, you need to know that, with very few exceptions —
> none of which immediately come to mind — open source programs
> have great appeal for people who want to tinker with computers but
> almost none for those who actually want to do something.  Such
> apps tend to have butt ugly interfaces and stupid names like Lyx
> and Snort and Gimp and Phlegm.  Last I saw, Lyx wasn't even
> WYSIWYG, for crying out loud.  Forewarned is forewarned.  Or
> something like that."
> ===
[...]

Re: Lyx2doc: was Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

[stefano franchi]

On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 9:32 AM, Richard Heck  wrote:

> On 06/10/2013 06:05 PM, Steve Litt wrote:
>
> This can already be done, more or less. That is, I can't imagine anything
> you'd want to do, as far as XHTML export goes, that isn't provided for in
> the layout files.
>
> Indeed, I am sufficiently confident about this that I'd be surprised if it
> were not possible to build the sort of simple HTML export you want simply
> by writing a new layout file



Richard,

I just spent the last hour converting a short (2800 words)  lyx/pdf file
into Word. Could you tell me where I should look to fix the problems I
detail below?

Setup: Lyx + memoir + biblatex = Biber. Usually typeset to pdf with
lualatex. . File contained two images (in floats, reduced from the
originals by latex) Archlinux box with TL2012

I tried the elyxer routes (both regular and html(word)) and they failed
with too many errors to report here. I then exported to xhtml, imported
into abiword and exported to doc format. Opened it it libreoffice for final
cleanup.

Here are the problems I found. My guess is that part of these are LyX/XHMTL
issues and part are due to AbiWord.

1. Bibliography did not come over and was just ignored. I had to copy and
paste from the pdf output. Biblatex issue?

2. Footnote text came over but not as a footnote. It was just pasted in the
correct location but as a regular text.

3. Latex special character issues: "em-dash as triple hyphen" came over as
a triple hyphen and not as an em-dash. "tilde as non-breaking space" (I
routinely use that in references) came over as tilde.

4. Images were pasted more or less where the floats were inserted, at full
original size.

5. Captions followed the images as regular text.

6. Formatting of the "paragraph" environment was lost (I guess it's too
deeply nested to have a corresponding h level?)

Are these issues that a proper layout file would sort out?


Cheers,

Stefano

-- 
__
Stefano Franchi
Associate Research Professor
Department of Hispanic StudiesPh:   +1 (979) 845-2125
Texas A University  Fax:  +1 (979) 845-6421
College Station, Texas, USA

stef...@tamu.edu
http://stefano.cleinias.org

Re: Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

[Wolfgang Keller]

> But I can tell you this guy is going to come back and say he's a great
> and mighty best selling author, ask how many books have I sold. While
> books provide a part of my income, I have no best sellers, either now
> or in the past.
> 
> So, when he comes back and asks that, it would be *wonderful* to give
> the writer's list one or more best seller books (I think something
> with an Amazon rank of less than 5000 would do it), to refute his
> statement, by counterexample.

First, LyX is just a GUI, a sort-of-IDE for LaTeX, even though it uses
its own file format. And you would never make a distinction between the
various LaTeX IDEs or editors or front-ends or...

Next, LaTeX (and consequently, any of the various front-ends for it) is
*the* publishing tool within the scientific world. Obviously, no one
would write pulp fiction or non-fiction "bestseller" books with it,
since those authors aren't scientists.

And concerning .doc as a content exchange format; During my last 25
years of experience with writing documents I have *never*, repeat
*never* seen anyone re-use from a .doc document any content beyond bare
naked unformatted raw text. Even if it was for re-use *within* MS Word.

"Paste as unformatted text" is the only possibility of content re-use
that the spaghetti-format of Word effectively allows. No matter what
effort you deploy in preparing templates with styles and whatnot - it
won't work, ever.

Sincerely,

Wolfgang

Re: Lyx2doc: was Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

[Steve Litt]

On Tue, 11 Jun 2013 10:32:12 -0400
Richard Heck  wrote:

> On 06/10/2013 06:05 PM, Steve Litt wrote:
> > These days, it could be used as a front end to anything with the
> > proper styles defined, and the proper converter. So the same LyX
> > file could be used to output LaTeX, MSWord doc, XHTML, HTML, simple
> > HTML, or who knows what else.
> >
> > To more easily accommodate this, it seems to me like layout files
> > should be split into an input side and an output side, with the
> > output side capable of multiple output formats. So the input side
> > might look something like this:
> >
> > CharStyle MyEmph
> > Font
> > Shape Italic
> > EndFont
> >
> > if outputtype == latex
> > outputName  latexlayout.layout/myemphL
> > outputType  Command
> > elsif outputtype == simplehtml
> > outputName  simphtmllayout.layout/myemphH
> > outputType  InlineTag
> > else outputtype == msword
> > outputName  winwordlayout.layout/myemphW
> > outputType  CharacterStyle
> > End
> >
> > Environments would be similar.
> >
> > Ideally it would be designed so that it doesn't syntax check inside
> > the output type's it's not. That way you can develop one output
> > type at a time without getting errors from the ones you haven't
> > developed yet.
> 
> This can already be done, more or less. That is, I can't imagine 
> anything you'd want to do, as far as XHTML export goes, that isn't 
> provided for in the layout files.
> 
> Indeed, I am sufficiently confident about this that I'd be surprised
> if it were not possible to build the sort of simple HTML export you
> want simply by writing a new layout file.

Thanks Richard,

When I tried to do this with my layout file, it failed miserably. Try
as I might, I couldn't get Standard to map to , nor could I get
Section to map to , etc.

SteveT

Steve Litt*  http://www.troubleshooters.com/
Troubleshooting Training  *  Human Performance

Re: Lyx2doc: was Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

[Richard Heck]

On 06/11/2013 01:18 PM, stefano franchi wrote:



Here are the problems I found. My guess is that part of these are 
LyX/XHMTL issues and part are due to AbiWord.


1. Bibliography did not come over and was just ignored. I had to copy 
and paste from the pdf output. Biblatex issue?


Probably. If there's no BibTeX inset, then the bibliography will not be 
produced, and I guess you don't have that for BibLaTeX, except maybe in 
a note. So this is really an effect of the fact that we have no formal 
support for BibLaTeX.


2. Footnote text came over but not as a footnote. It was just pasted 
in the correct location but as a regular text.


Footnotes are just exported as div's, with class="footnote", so AbiWord 
or whatever will not recognize it as a footnote. There's not really any 
HTML equivalent of a footnote, so I'm not sure there is much to be done 
here.


3. Latex special character issues: "em-dash as triple hyphen" came 
over as a triple hyphen and not as an em-dash. "tilde as non-breaking 
space" (I routinely use that in references) came over as tilde.


The em-dash SHOULD be exported as such. There's code in 
Paragraph::simpleLyXHTMLOnePar() that is supposed to handle this. It 
works for me in a simple test document.


The tilde is a different story. Can you file a bug about that? We do 
some LaTeX --> HTML conversion here, handling things like \"u, so I just 
need to add handling of ~.


4. Images were pasted more or less where the floats were inserted, at 
full original size.


Another bug. I suppose we should scale them somehow? Please post a bug 
about this, too.


There's not really anything to do other than put the images where they 
are inserted. HTML has no concept of a "page", so the placement options 
make no sense.



5. Captions followed the images as regular text.


Similar to the footnote problem, I think. Probably we should switch to 
using the new  tag and the associated  tag. Can you 
also file a bug about that?


6. Formatting of the "paragraph" environment was lost (I guess it's 
too deeply nested to have a corresponding h level?)


I forgot to include a tag for those. I've just fixed that for the next 
release. See

http://git.lyx.org/?p=lyx.git;a=commit;h=c6a08bc4421c960dc8148a95eb68ba90c2f95ff5
for the commit.

Sorry to ask for so much bug-filing. With 2.1 on the horizon, I can't do 
very much right now, as Vincent has trunk pretty locked.


Richard

Re: Lyx2doc: was Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

[Richard Heck]

On 06/11/2013 02:03 PM, Steve Litt wrote:

On Tue, 11 Jun 2013 10:32:12 -0400
Richard Heck  wrote:


On 06/10/2013 06:05 PM, Steve Litt wrote:

These days, it could be used as a front end to anything with the
proper styles defined, and the proper converter. So the same LyX
file could be used to output LaTeX, MSWord doc, XHTML, HTML, simple
HTML, or who knows what else.

To more easily accommodate this, it seems to me like layout files
should be split into an input side and an output side, with the
output side capable of multiple output formats. So the input side
might look something like this:

CharStyle MyEmph
Font
Shape Italic
EndFont

if outputtype == latex
 outputName latexlayout.layout/myemphL
 outputType Command
elsif outputtype == simplehtml
 outputName simphtmllayout.layout/myemphH
 outputType InlineTag
else outputtype == msword
 outputName winwordlayout.layout/myemphW
 outputType CharacterStyle
End

Environments would be similar.

Ideally it would be designed so that it doesn't syntax check inside
the output type's it's not. That way you can develop one output
type at a time without getting errors from the ones you haven't
developed yet.

This can already be done, more or less. That is, I can't imagine
anything you'd want to do, as far as XHTML export goes, that isn't
provided for in the layout files.

Indeed, I am sufficiently confident about this that I'd be surprised
if it were not possible to build the sort of simple HTML export you
want simply by writing a new layout file.

Thanks Richard,

When I tried to do this with my layout file, it failed miserably. Try
as I might, I couldn't get Standard to map to , nor could I get
Section to map to , etc.


If you want to send me your layout file, I will get it working.

Richard

Re: the dreaded docx export - WAS: Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

[Ray Rashif]

On 11 June 2013 14:15, Rainer M Krug  wrote:

> These are just ideas from my side, but to try to incorporate pandoc
> into LyX in the same way as LaTeX is Incorporated, would make LyX even
> more powerful then it is already now.
>

I agree. In fact, I think this affects me more as an editor, where I have
to collaborate with clients often with a format they're comfortable with.
Recently I've been using pandoc markdown to write stuff and then outputting
to Word, but the back and forth is really becoming annoying as the other
way around is not a painless route.

For a start, both RTF and DOC formats have some inherent issues. I took
some time to briefly benchmark this and came to the conclusion that they're
not really worth the effort. Try converting a simple RTF or DOC file with
one section and some basic formatting (bold, italic). Abiword, OpenOffice,
Ted -- all had problems. However, DOCX is a different story.

I believe that if we define the simplest use case we are satisfied with we
can come up with a good solution for DOCX, which is a (slightly) documented
format (at least, better than RTF or DOC). Rob Oakes did some work on DOC
[1] but it still involves a number of loops and caveats. You can also find
some programmatic examples for writing DOCX on the web [2] and an HTML
converter. [3]

I wanted to survey the LyX and LaTeX community for some opinions on this,
perhaps to get an idea as to the demand for some research into this area.
The project would do some empirical comparisons of the workarounds and
propose at most two or three solutions that work (integration with Pandoc,
or converintg directly to a simpler and well-supported language).

The emphasis would be on retaining as much semantic meaning as possible,
across different levels of complexity, starting from the very basic. I am
not aware of any similar academic or non-academic effort, but this could
also be a long blog post.


[1] http://blog.oak-tree.us/index.php/2010/05/14/msword-lyx-import
[2] http://www.jackreichert.com/2012/11/09/how-to-convert-docx-to-html/
[3] http://www.textfixer.com/html/convert-word-to-html.php


--
GPG/PGP ID: C0711BF1

Re: the dreaded docx export - WAS: Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

[stefano franchi]

On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 2:09 PM, Ray Rashif  wrote:

> On 11 June 2013 14:15, Rainer M Krug  wrote:
>
> I wanted to survey the LyX and LaTeX community for some opinions on this,
> perhaps to get an idea as to the demand for some research into this area.
> The project would do some empirical comparisons of the workarounds and
> propose at most two or three solutions that work (integration with Pandoc,
> or converintg directly to a simpler and well-supported language).
>
> The emphasis would be on retaining as much semantic meaning as possible,
> across different levels of complexity, starting from the very basic. I am
> not aware of any similar academic or non-academic effort, but this could
> also be a long blog post.
>
>

HI Ray,

I am not sure about what you're asking, exactly? Perhaps a survey of the
different lyx-doc(x) use cases that current lyx users care most about? Or
rather a definition of the simplest yet still useful use case we can
imagine? If the former, I would suggest starting a page on our wiki,
perhaps as a possible GSoC 2014 project, as a repository of useful cases
people could refer to. If the latter...well I'd need further info because
I'm not really sure what you're aiming for.

Cheers,

Stefano
-- 
__
Stefano Franchi
Associate Research Professor
Department of Hispanic StudiesPh:   +1 (979) 845-2125
Texas A University  Fax:  +1 (979) 845-6421
College Station, Texas, USA

stef...@tamu.edu
http://stefano.cleinias.org

Re: the dreaded docx export - WAS: Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

[Ray Rashif]

On 12 June 2013 03:57, stefano franchi  wrote:

>
>
>
> On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 2:09 PM, Ray Rashif wrote:
>
>> On 11 June 2013 14:15, Rainer M Krug  wrote:
>>
>> I wanted to survey the LyX and LaTeX community for some opinions on this,
>> perhaps to get an idea as to the demand for some research into this area.
>> The project would do some empirical comparisons of the workarounds and
>> propose at most two or three solutions that work (integration with Pandoc,
>> or converintg directly to a simpler and well-supported language).
>>
>> The emphasis would be on retaining as much semantic meaning as possible,
>> across different levels of complexity, starting from the very basic. I am
>> not aware of any similar academic or non-academic effort, but this could
>> also be a long blog post.
>>
>>
>
> HI Ray,
>
> I am not sure about what you're asking, exactly? Perhaps a survey of the
> different lyx-doc(x) use cases that current lyx users care most about? Or
> rather a definition of the simplest yet still useful use case we can
> imagine? If the former, I would suggest starting a page on our wiki,
> perhaps as a possible GSoC 2014 project, as a repository of useful cases
> people could refer to. If the latter...well I'd need further info because
> I'm not really sure what you're aiming for.
>

Hey Stefano

Sorry for the lack of clarity there -- probably a mistake of dumping one or
two things I had on my mind without context. I was referring to
cross-platform document interoperability for collaborative writing and
editing, not really LyX-specific but very much related, and not really a
new issue.

If there are people indeed affected by this, and they would like some
documentation, then I'd like to put in some time to review current issues
and strategies, and produce working code to convert a non-friendly format
into a pluggable one (into LyX, LaTeX, Pandoc) for _only_ the use cases
that matter most (according to the target audience; writers, editors,
fiction or non-fiction).

Often times I have found myself dealing with only a subset of formatting
tools during the first phase of a write-up, in most cases a draft, and I
would often make the mistake of thinking they're simple enough to not break
collaboration. I would assume many of our workflows start with sections,
followed by emphasis (boldface and italics), then simple lists (itemized
and enumerated), footnotes, and finally citations.

Personally I have never needed anything more complex like cross-references,
tables and images -- I always schedule them for later phases because they
interrupt the workflow, although I do make space for them informally (using
characters I can easily search for). At the end of the day, what I have to
deal with is a DOC or DOCX file with semantic comments (that are not
understood by most other tools), no matter where or how I start.

== TL;DR ==
What I'd like is to solve for the missing input formats in e.g. Pandoc. It
does not support RTF, DOC, or DOCX, but supports HTML, which Word does not
output cleanly. Either way, it's something I have had in my mind for some
time, but too busy to investigate or ask around methodically. Getting an
idea of the demand for a solution in this case could force me to invest the
time.

Inspiration: http://gio.act.gov.au/2013/03/13/document-conversion-markdown/


--
GPG/PGP ID: C0711BF1

Re: Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

[Stephen George]

On 12/06/2013 1:02 AM, Dr Eberhard Lisse wrote:

of course he's right, but then he can google what DILLIGAF stands
for :-)-O

No he can't, with comments like
/"open source programs have great appeal for people who want to tinker 
with computers but almost none for those who actually want to do 
something."/


He would not be able to use Google as it is running open source 
programs, and he wouldn't use it as it's against his principles.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_platform
/"//Servers are //commodity-class 
x86 
PCs 
//running customized 
versions of //Linux //."/


Further to that, finding a book with good amazon ranking would also be 
useless, as Amazon is also running open source, so he also would NOT use 
that service.

http://news.cnet.com/2100-1001-275155.html

In fact he probably doesn't do much web surfing with the open source 
Apache dominating the HTTP internet server market

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apache_HTTP_Server
/"Since April 1996 Apache has been the most popular HTTP server software 
in use. As of December 2012 Apache was estimated to serve 63.7% of all 
active //websites //and 58.49% of 
the top servers across all domains"//

/
There is a big chance the writers forum were he made those comments is 
also powered by an open source program.


Sorry for the outburst, I just can't believe how polarised some people 
are against open source programs.
Personally I dont think you should feed him with fuel, just let it drop 
and continue on with your own life using the programs you enjoy, I dont 
think you have anything to prove. (but I do understand the sense of 
outrage after hearing the comments)


Steve

Re: Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

[John Kane]

 
What kind of  books does he write?  If
it's pure text then he probably does not need the power of LyX but on
the other hand if he's doing something complicated like writing
technical books then you can laugh  if he's doing it in Word.  And
come to think of it. if it's pure prose then he does not need WYSIWYG
anyway.

I would not expect many mainstream
writers of novels and  gardening books to use LyX just as they
probably don't use LaTeX.  They would be unlikely to have had any
acquaintance with the tools of technical writing and so not even know
they exist. When the most complicated layout you ever need is an MLA
template for first year English you don't usually turn to LaTeX or
LyX. Their instructors won't know about it and so they cannot suggest
it. 

Even if LyX were the best tool for the
job authors can get by with what they know and may not even realise
there is a better way or just don't see a reason to put themselves
out for what they may perceive as small gains.  After you have seen
intelligent people write CVs in Lotus123 and Excel you can expect
anything.

Your best-seller author probably is
arguing from a  position of absolute and invincible ignorance.  He's
probably right but for the wrong reasons.

You might want to look at  the best
non-fiction sellers at Amazon's best-sellers' list. The first one is
The Algebra Survival Guide Workbook by Josh Rappaport  It might be a
LyX or LaTeX book. Hopefully it was not done in Word.

It's hard to know what tools authors
use to write books, most dust-jackets don't mention it. A bit of
googling seems to suggest that Neil Gaiman and J.K. Rowling use pens,
at least for a first draft. George Bernard Shaw wrote everything in
Pitman Shorthand. That is definitely not WYSIWYG. 

The same thing applies for
bibliographic management.  A student at the local college told me
that she had asked her instructors (Nursing) about software for
managing references. Their answer was they knew such things existed
but had no idea of how  to find or use them.  I talked her into  
using Zotero (with Word, sob) and she's saving an hour or so per
paper in the handling of citations and reference lists.  Maybe next
year for LyX and APA6.



 From: Steve Litt sl...@troubleshooters.com
To: lyx-users@lists.lyx.org lyx-users@lists.lyx.org 
Sent: Sunday, June 9, 2013 10:36:15 AM
Subject: Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX
 

Hi all,

On one of my writers' mailing list, after I said I used LyX, a guy who
really does have what once was a best-seller wrote this:

===
As for Lyx, you need to know that, with very few exceptions  none of
which immediately come to mind  open source programs have great appeal
for people who want to tinker with computers but almost none for those
who actually want to do something. Such apps tend to have butt ugly
interfaces and stupid names like Lyx and Snort and Gimp and Phlegm.
Last I saw, Lyx wasn't even WYSIWYG, for crying out loud. Forewarned is
forewarned. Or something like that.
===

I already wrote back mocking his position and pointing out that if Open
Source got his undies that tight in a bundle, maybe there's something
interesting there, maybe everyone should try LyX, after all, it's free,
and gave the www.lyx.org URL.

But I can tell you this guy is going to come back and say he's a great
and mighty best selling author, ask how many books have I sold. While
books provide a part of my income, I have no best sellers, either now
or in the past.

So, when he comes back and asks that, it would be *wonderful* to give
the writer's list one or more best seller books (I think something with
an Amazon rank of less than 5000 would do it), to refute his statement,
by counterexample.

I'll say one more thing. A lot of writers seem to be proud of their
technophobia, and say mean and stupid stuff about LyX and other Open
Source. On their behalf, please allow *this* writer to apologize.

And as always, keep up the good work producing a great book writing
software (and perhaps now a web authoring software).

Thanks,

SteveT

Steve Litt                *  http://www.troubleshooters.com/
Troubleshooting Training  *  Human Performance

Re: Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

[Les Denham]

On Sun, 9 Jun 2013 10:32:20 -0500
stefano franchi stefano.fran...@gmail.com wrote:

 I'm willing to bet you won't find such an example. The reason is
 simple: more or less by definition a best-seller is book produced by
 a major commercial publishing house supported by a consistent
 marketing effort, heavily edited by a professional editor and laid
 out by a (team of ) typesetters according to a carefully designed
 house-specific graphic design project.

While that is the traditional definition of a best seller, it is
becoming less and less relevant.

I use LyX rather than Word (or its clones) because it allows me to
produce a presentable document in about half the time it takes with
Word. This is emphatically the case if it is a document requiring a
detailed table of contents, an index, or a bibliography, or if it
contains figures, cross-references or footnotes.

A further advantage of LyX that I have only come to appreciate in the
last year or two is that even without a specific converter LyX makes
the production of an ebook in EPUB format far easier than using a
conventional word processor. Preparing a document in Word for the
conversion is so simple that Smashwords has produced a 24,000 word
book on how to do it: http://www.smashwords.com/books/view/52

Les

Re: Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

[stefano franchi]

On Mon, Jun 10, 2013 at 1:44 PM, Les Denham lden...@hal-pc.org wrote:

 On Sun, 9 Jun 2013 10:32:20 -0500
 stefano franchi stefano.fran...@gmail.com wrote:

  I'm willing to bet you won't find such an example. The reason is
  simple: more or less by definition a best-seller is book produced by
  a major commercial publishing house supported by a consistent
  marketing effort, heavily edited by a professional editor and laid
  out by a (team of ) typesetters according to a carefully designed
  house-specific graphic design project.

 While that is the traditional definition of a best seller, it is
 becoming less and less relevant.


You may be right. As I said, I'm a pessimist. Yet, I've still to meet the
production editor of a major publishing house who would accept a manuscript
in LyX or Latex formats. Whereas I've met editors willing to accept a
*paper* manuscript and have it retyped in Word.


 I use LyX rather than Word (or its clones) because it allows me to
 produce a presentable document in about half the time it takes with
 Word. This is emphatically the case if it is a document requiring a
 detailed table of contents, an index, or a bibliography, or if it
 contains figures, cross-references or footnotes.


I guess that's the very reason why we all use LyX. I certainly wouldn't be
as productive in Word. But those of us working in the Humanities (at least
some Humanities) then have to budget some time to convert the output to
Word. Nothing else is accepted. I tend to think best-sellers authors'
position is closer to us than to a physicist's, a mathematician's or a
logician's. That's why a minimal and yet reliable LyX-to-Doc converter---a
topic we've repeatedly discussed on the list---would make such a difference
to the non-technical user, IMHO.



Cheers,

S.







-- 
__
Stefano Franchi
Associate Research Professor
Department of Hispanic StudiesPh:   +1 (979) 845-2125
Texas AM University  Fax:  +1 (979) 845-6421
College Station, Texas, USA

stef...@tamu.edu
http://stefano.cleinias.org

Lyx2doc: was Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

[Steve Litt]

On Mon, 10 Jun 2013 16:02:15 -0500
stefano franchi stefano.fran...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Mon, Jun 10, 2013 at 1:44 PM, Les Denham lden...@hal-pc.org
 wrote:

  I use LyX rather than Word (or its clones) because it allows me to
  produce a presentable document in about half the time it takes with
  Word. This is emphatically the case if it is a document requiring a
  detailed table of contents, an index, or a bibliography, or if it
  contains figures, cross-references or footnotes.
 
 
 I guess that's the very reason why we all use LyX. I certainly
 wouldn't be as productive in Word. But those of us working in the
 Humanities (at least some Humanities) then have to budget some time
 to convert the output to Word. Nothing else is accepted. I tend to
 think best-sellers authors' position is closer to us than to a
 physicist's, a mathematician's or a logician's. That's why a minimal
 and yet reliable LyX-to-Doc converter---a topic we've repeatedly
 discussed on the list---would make such a difference to the
 non-technical user, IMHO.

Stephano, you bring up an important point...

Ten years ago, I used LyX only because it was a front end to LaTeX. Now
I use it because it's an ultra-fast, styles-enforcing wordprocessor.
I've used it to make Kindle eBook (http://www.amazon.com/dp/B006QTBLA2),
which has absolutely nothing to do with LaTeX. Now I'm making a
converter to make it do simple HTML like you'd find on a web page,
rather than as input to an eBook. One thing perhaps I haven't
appreciated til now is what a good, fast and efficient wordprocessor
LyX is. It knows when you press space twice it was a mistake and only
prints one space. It knows when you press Enter twice that it's a
mistake and prints only one. It makes fingerprinting difficult, which
is just what I want. And I've never had LyX lose my work.

These days, it could be used as a front end to anything with the proper
styles defined, and the proper converter. So the same LyX file could be
used to output LaTeX, MSWord doc, XHTML, HTML, simple HTML, or who
knows what else.

To more easily accommodate this, it seems to me like layout files
should be split into an input side and an output side, with the output
side capable of multiple output formats. So the input side might look
something like this:



CharStyle MyEmph
Font
Shape Italic
EndFont

if outputtype == latex
   outputName   latexlayout.layout/myemphL
   outputType   Command
elsif outputtype == simplehtml
   outputName   simphtmllayout.layout/myemphH
   outputType   InlineTag
else outputtype == msword
   outputName   winwordlayout.layout/myemphW
   outputType   CharacterStyle
End

Environments would be similar.

Ideally it would be designed so that it doesn't syntax check inside the
output type's it's not. That way you can develop one output type at a
time without getting errors from the ones you haven't developed yet.

It seems to me that something like this would be a logical way of
turning LyX into a universal front end while changing very little of
LyX's core code.

I'm not a good enough programmer to do this in C++, so feel free to view
this suggestion with some healthy skepticism.

Thanks,

SteveT

Steve Litt*  http://www.troubleshooters.com/
Troubleshooting Training  *  Human Performance

Re: Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

[John Kane]

 
What kind of  books does he write?  If
it's pure text then he probably does not need the power of LyX but on
the other hand if he's doing something complicated like writing
technical books then you can laugh  if he's doing it in Word.  And
come to think of it. if it's pure prose then he does not need WYSIWYG
anyway.

I would not expect many mainstream
writers of novels and  gardening books to use LyX just as they
probably don't use LaTeX.  They would be unlikely to have had any
acquaintance with the tools of technical writing and so not even know
they exist. When the most complicated layout you ever need is an MLA
template for first year English you don't usually turn to LaTeX or
LyX. Their instructors won't know about it and so they cannot suggest
it. 

Even if LyX were the best tool for the
job authors can get by with what they know and may not even realise
there is a better way or just don't see a reason to put themselves
out for what they may perceive as small gains.  After you have seen
intelligent people write CVs in Lotus123 and Excel you can expect
anything.

Your best-seller author probably is
arguing from a  position of absolute and invincible ignorance.  He's
probably right but for the wrong reasons.

You might want to look at  the best
non-fiction sellers at Amazon's best-sellers' list. The first one is
The Algebra Survival Guide Workbook by Josh Rappaport  It might be a
LyX or LaTeX book. Hopefully it was not done in Word.

It's hard to know what tools authors
use to write books, most dust-jackets don't mention it. A bit of
googling seems to suggest that Neil Gaiman and J.K. Rowling use pens,
at least for a first draft. George Bernard Shaw wrote everything in
Pitman Shorthand. That is definitely not WYSIWYG. 

The same thing applies for
bibliographic management.  A student at the local college told me
that she had asked her instructors (Nursing) about software for
managing references. Their answer was they knew such things existed
but had no idea of how  to find or use them.  I talked her into  
using Zotero (with Word, sob) and she's saving an hour or so per
paper in the handling of citations and reference lists.  Maybe next
year for LyX and APA6.



 From: Steve Litt sl...@troubleshooters.com
To: lyx-users@lists.lyx.org lyx-users@lists.lyx.org 
Sent: Sunday, June 9, 2013 10:36:15 AM
Subject: Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX
 

Hi all,

On one of my writers' mailing list, after I said I used LyX, a guy who
really does have what once was a best-seller wrote this:

===
As for Lyx, you need to know that, with very few exceptions  none of
which immediately come to mind  open source programs have great appeal
for people who want to tinker with computers but almost none for those
who actually want to do something. Such apps tend to have butt ugly
interfaces and stupid names like Lyx and Snort and Gimp and Phlegm.
Last I saw, Lyx wasn't even WYSIWYG, for crying out loud. Forewarned is
forewarned. Or something like that.
===

I already wrote back mocking his position and pointing out that if Open
Source got his undies that tight in a bundle, maybe there's something
interesting there, maybe everyone should try LyX, after all, it's free,
and gave the www.lyx.org URL.

But I can tell you this guy is going to come back and say he's a great
and mighty best selling author, ask how many books have I sold. While
books provide a part of my income, I have no best sellers, either now
or in the past.

So, when he comes back and asks that, it would be *wonderful* to give
the writer's list one or more best seller books (I think something with
an Amazon rank of less than 5000 would do it), to refute his statement,
by counterexample.

I'll say one more thing. A lot of writers seem to be proud of their
technophobia, and say mean and stupid stuff about LyX and other Open
Source. On their behalf, please allow *this* writer to apologize.

And as always, keep up the good work producing a great book writing
software (and perhaps now a web authoring software).

Thanks,

SteveT

Steve Litt                *  http://www.troubleshooters.com/
Troubleshooting Training  *  Human Performance

Re: Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

[Les Denham]

On Sun, 9 Jun 2013 10:32:20 -0500
stefano franchi stefano.fran...@gmail.com wrote:

 I'm willing to bet you won't find such an example. The reason is
 simple: more or less by definition a best-seller is book produced by
 a major commercial publishing house supported by a consistent
 marketing effort, heavily edited by a professional editor and laid
 out by a (team of ) typesetters according to a carefully designed
 house-specific graphic design project.

While that is the traditional definition of a best seller, it is
becoming less and less relevant.

I use LyX rather than Word (or its clones) because it allows me to
produce a presentable document in about half the time it takes with
Word. This is emphatically the case if it is a document requiring a
detailed table of contents, an index, or a bibliography, or if it
contains figures, cross-references or footnotes.

A further advantage of LyX that I have only come to appreciate in the
last year or two is that even without a specific converter LyX makes
the production of an ebook in EPUB format far easier than using a
conventional word processor. Preparing a document in Word for the
conversion is so simple that Smashwords has produced a 24,000 word
book on how to do it: http://www.smashwords.com/books/view/52

Les

Re: Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

[stefano franchi]

On Mon, Jun 10, 2013 at 1:44 PM, Les Denham lden...@hal-pc.org wrote:

 On Sun, 9 Jun 2013 10:32:20 -0500
 stefano franchi stefano.fran...@gmail.com wrote:

  I'm willing to bet you won't find such an example. The reason is
  simple: more or less by definition a best-seller is book produced by
  a major commercial publishing house supported by a consistent
  marketing effort, heavily edited by a professional editor and laid
  out by a (team of ) typesetters according to a carefully designed
  house-specific graphic design project.

 While that is the traditional definition of a best seller, it is
 becoming less and less relevant.


You may be right. As I said, I'm a pessimist. Yet, I've still to meet the
production editor of a major publishing house who would accept a manuscript
in LyX or Latex formats. Whereas I've met editors willing to accept a
*paper* manuscript and have it retyped in Word.


 I use LyX rather than Word (or its clones) because it allows me to
 produce a presentable document in about half the time it takes with
 Word. This is emphatically the case if it is a document requiring a
 detailed table of contents, an index, or a bibliography, or if it
 contains figures, cross-references or footnotes.


I guess that's the very reason why we all use LyX. I certainly wouldn't be
as productive in Word. But those of us working in the Humanities (at least
some Humanities) then have to budget some time to convert the output to
Word. Nothing else is accepted. I tend to think best-sellers authors'
position is closer to us than to a physicist's, a mathematician's or a
logician's. That's why a minimal and yet reliable LyX-to-Doc converter---a
topic we've repeatedly discussed on the list---would make such a difference
to the non-technical user, IMHO.



Cheers,

S.







-- 
__
Stefano Franchi
Associate Research Professor
Department of Hispanic StudiesPh:   +1 (979) 845-2125
Texas AM University  Fax:  +1 (979) 845-6421
College Station, Texas, USA

stef...@tamu.edu
http://stefano.cleinias.org

Lyx2doc: was Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

[Steve Litt]

On Mon, 10 Jun 2013 16:02:15 -0500
stefano franchi stefano.fran...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Mon, Jun 10, 2013 at 1:44 PM, Les Denham lden...@hal-pc.org
 wrote:

  I use LyX rather than Word (or its clones) because it allows me to
  produce a presentable document in about half the time it takes with
  Word. This is emphatically the case if it is a document requiring a
  detailed table of contents, an index, or a bibliography, or if it
  contains figures, cross-references or footnotes.
 
 
 I guess that's the very reason why we all use LyX. I certainly
 wouldn't be as productive in Word. But those of us working in the
 Humanities (at least some Humanities) then have to budget some time
 to convert the output to Word. Nothing else is accepted. I tend to
 think best-sellers authors' position is closer to us than to a
 physicist's, a mathematician's or a logician's. That's why a minimal
 and yet reliable LyX-to-Doc converter---a topic we've repeatedly
 discussed on the list---would make such a difference to the
 non-technical user, IMHO.

Stephano, you bring up an important point...

Ten years ago, I used LyX only because it was a front end to LaTeX. Now
I use it because it's an ultra-fast, styles-enforcing wordprocessor.
I've used it to make Kindle eBook (http://www.amazon.com/dp/B006QTBLA2),
which has absolutely nothing to do with LaTeX. Now I'm making a
converter to make it do simple HTML like you'd find on a web page,
rather than as input to an eBook. One thing perhaps I haven't
appreciated til now is what a good, fast and efficient wordprocessor
LyX is. It knows when you press space twice it was a mistake and only
prints one space. It knows when you press Enter twice that it's a
mistake and prints only one. It makes fingerprinting difficult, which
is just what I want. And I've never had LyX lose my work.

These days, it could be used as a front end to anything with the proper
styles defined, and the proper converter. So the same LyX file could be
used to output LaTeX, MSWord doc, XHTML, HTML, simple HTML, or who
knows what else.

To more easily accommodate this, it seems to me like layout files
should be split into an input side and an output side, with the output
side capable of multiple output formats. So the input side might look
something like this:



CharStyle MyEmph
Font
Shape Italic
EndFont

if outputtype == latex
   outputName   latexlayout.layout/myemphL
   outputType   Command
elsif outputtype == simplehtml
   outputName   simphtmllayout.layout/myemphH
   outputType   InlineTag
else outputtype == msword
   outputName   winwordlayout.layout/myemphW
   outputType   CharacterStyle
End

Environments would be similar.

Ideally it would be designed so that it doesn't syntax check inside the
output type's it's not. That way you can develop one output type at a
time without getting errors from the ones you haven't developed yet.

It seems to me that something like this would be a logical way of
turning LyX into a universal front end while changing very little of
LyX's core code.

I'm not a good enough programmer to do this in C++, so feel free to view
this suggestion with some healthy skepticism.

Thanks,

SteveT

Steve Litt*  http://www.troubleshooters.com/
Troubleshooting Training  *  Human Performance

Re: Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

[John Kane]

 
What kind of  books does he write?  If
it's pure text then he probably does not need the power of LyX but on
the other hand if he's doing something complicated like writing
technical books then you can laugh  if he's doing it in Word.  And
come to think of it. if it's pure prose then he does not need WYSIWYG
anyway.

I would not expect many mainstream
writers of novels and  gardening books to use LyX just as they
probably don't use LaTeX.  They would be unlikely to have had any
acquaintance with the tools of technical writing and so not even know
they exist. When the most complicated layout you ever need is an MLA
template for first year English you don't usually turn to LaTeX or
LyX. Their instructors won't know about it and so they cannot suggest
it. 

Even if LyX were the best tool for the
job authors can get by with what they know and may not even realise
there is a better way or just don't see a reason to put themselves
out for what they may perceive as small gains.  After you have seen
intelligent people write CVs in Lotus123 and Excel you can expect
anything.

Your best-seller author probably is
arguing from a  position of absolute and invincible ignorance.  He's
probably right but for the wrong reasons.

You might want to look at  the best
non-fiction sellers at Amazon's best-sellers' list. The first one is
The Algebra Survival Guide Workbook by Josh Rappaport  It might be a
LyX or LaTeX book. Hopefully it was not done in Word.

It's hard to know what tools authors
use to write books, most dust-jackets don't mention it. A bit of
googling seems to suggest that Neil Gaiman and J.K. Rowling use pens,
at least for a first draft. George Bernard Shaw wrote everything in
Pitman Shorthand. That is definitely not WYSIWYG. 

The same thing applies for
bibliographic management.  A student at the local college told me
that she had asked her instructors (Nursing) about software for
managing references. Their answer was they knew such things existed
but had no idea of how  to find or use them.  I talked her into  
using Zotero (with Word, sob) and she's saving an hour or so per
paper in the handling of citations and reference lists.  Maybe next
year for LyX and APA6.



 From: Steve Litt <sl...@troubleshooters.com>
To: "lyx-users@lists.lyx.org" <lyx-users@lists.lyx.org> 
Sent: Sunday, June 9, 2013 10:36:15 AM
Subject: Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX
 

Hi all,

On one of my writers' mailing list, after I said I used LyX, a guy who
really does have what once was a best-seller wrote this:

===
"As for Lyx, you need to know that, with very few exceptions  none of
which immediately come to mind  open source programs have great appeal
for people who want to tinker with computers but almost none for those
who actually want to do something. Such apps tend to have butt ugly
interfaces and stupid names like Lyx and Snort and Gimp and Phlegm.
Last I saw, Lyx wasn't even WYSIWYG, for crying out loud. Forewarned is
forewarned. Or something like that."
===

I already wrote back mocking his position and pointing out that if Open
Source got his undies that tight in a bundle, maybe there's something
interesting there, maybe everyone should try LyX, after all, it's free,
and gave the www.lyx.org URL.

But I can tell you this guy is going to come back and say he's a great
and mighty best selling author, ask how many books have I sold. While
books provide a part of my income, I have no best sellers, either now
or in the past.

So, when he comes back and asks that, it would be *wonderful* to give
the writer's list one or more best seller books (I think something with
an Amazon rank of less than 5000 would do it), to refute his statement,
by counterexample.

I'll say one more thing. A lot of writers seem to be proud of their
technophobia, and say mean and stupid stuff about LyX and other Open
Source. On their behalf, please allow *this* writer to apologize.

And as always, keep up the good work producing a great book writing
software (and perhaps now a web authoring software).

Thanks,

SteveT

Steve Litt                *  http://www.troubleshooters.com/
Troubleshooting Training  *  Human Performance

Re: Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

[Les Denham]

On Sun, 9 Jun 2013 10:32:20 -0500
stefano franchi  wrote:

> I'm willing to bet you won't find such an example. The reason is
> simple: more or less by definition a best-seller is book produced by
> a major commercial publishing house supported by a consistent
> marketing effort, heavily edited by a professional editor and laid
> out by a (team of ) typesetters according to a carefully designed
> house-specific graphic design project.

While that is the traditional definition of a best seller, it is
becoming less and less relevant.

I use LyX rather than Word (or its clones) because it allows me to
produce a presentable document in about half the time it takes with
Word. This is emphatically the case if it is a document requiring a
detailed table of contents, an index, or a bibliography, or if it
contains figures, cross-references or footnotes.

A further advantage of LyX that I have only come to appreciate in the
last year or two is that even without a specific converter LyX makes
the production of an ebook in EPUB format far easier than using a
conventional word processor. Preparing a document in Word for the
conversion is so "simple" that Smashwords has produced a 24,000 word
book on how to do it: http://www.smashwords.com/books/view/52

Les

Re: Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

[stefano franchi]

On Mon, Jun 10, 2013 at 1:44 PM, Les Denham  wrote:

> On Sun, 9 Jun 2013 10:32:20 -0500
> stefano franchi  wrote:
>
> > I'm willing to bet you won't find such an example. The reason is
> > simple: more or less by definition a best-seller is book produced by
> > a major commercial publishing house supported by a consistent
> > marketing effort, heavily edited by a professional editor and laid
> > out by a (team of ) typesetters according to a carefully designed
> > house-specific graphic design project.
>
> While that is the traditional definition of a best seller, it is
> becoming less and less relevant.
>

You may be right. As I said, I'm a pessimist. Yet, I've still to meet the
production editor of a major publishing house who would accept a manuscript
in LyX or Latex formats. Whereas I've met editors willing to accept a
*paper* manuscript and have it retyped in Word.


> I use LyX rather than Word (or its clones) because it allows me to
> produce a presentable document in about half the time it takes with
> Word. This is emphatically the case if it is a document requiring a
> detailed table of contents, an index, or a bibliography, or if it
> contains figures, cross-references or footnotes.
>
>
I guess that's the very reason why we all use LyX. I certainly wouldn't be
as productive in Word. But those of us working in the Humanities (at least
some Humanities) then have to budget some time to convert the output to
Word. Nothing else is accepted. I tend to think best-sellers authors'
position is closer to us than to a physicist's, a mathematician's or a
logician's. That's why a minimal and yet reliable LyX-to-Doc converter---a
topic we've repeatedly discussed on the list---would make such a difference
to the non-technical user, IMHO.



Cheers,

S.







-- 
__
Stefano Franchi
Associate Research Professor
Department of Hispanic StudiesPh:   +1 (979) 845-2125
Texas A University  Fax:  +1 (979) 845-6421
College Station, Texas, USA

stef...@tamu.edu
http://stefano.cleinias.org

Lyx2doc: was Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

[Steve Litt]

On Mon, 10 Jun 2013 16:02:15 -0500
stefano franchi  wrote:

> On Mon, Jun 10, 2013 at 1:44 PM, Les Denham 
> wrote:

> > I use LyX rather than Word (or its clones) because it allows me to
> > produce a presentable document in about half the time it takes with
> > Word. This is emphatically the case if it is a document requiring a
> > detailed table of contents, an index, or a bibliography, or if it
> > contains figures, cross-references or footnotes.
> >
> >
> I guess that's the very reason why we all use LyX. I certainly
> wouldn't be as productive in Word. But those of us working in the
> Humanities (at least some Humanities) then have to budget some time
> to convert the output to Word. Nothing else is accepted. I tend to
> think best-sellers authors' position is closer to us than to a
> physicist's, a mathematician's or a logician's. That's why a minimal
> and yet reliable LyX-to-Doc converter---a topic we've repeatedly
> discussed on the list---would make such a difference to the
> non-technical user, IMHO.

Stephano, you bring up an important point...

Ten years ago, I used LyX only because it was a front end to LaTeX. Now
I use it because it's an ultra-fast, styles-enforcing wordprocessor.
I've used it to make Kindle eBook (http://www.amazon.com/dp/B006QTBLA2),
which has absolutely nothing to do with LaTeX. Now I'm making a
converter to make it do simple HTML like you'd find on a web page,
rather than as input to an eBook. One thing perhaps I haven't
appreciated til now is what a good, fast and efficient wordprocessor
LyX is. It knows when you press space twice it was a mistake and only
prints one space. It knows when you press Enter twice that it's a
mistake and prints only one. It makes fingerprinting difficult, which
is just what I want. And I've never had LyX lose my work.

These days, it could be used as a front end to anything with the proper
styles defined, and the proper converter. So the same LyX file could be
used to output LaTeX, MSWord doc, XHTML, HTML, simple HTML, or who
knows what else.

To more easily accommodate this, it seems to me like layout files
should be split into an input side and an output side, with the output
side capable of multiple output formats. So the input side might look
something like this:



CharStyle MyEmph
Font
Shape Italic
EndFont

if outputtype == latex
   outputName   latexlayout.layout/myemphL
   outputType   Command
elsif outputtype == simplehtml
   outputName   simphtmllayout.layout/myemphH
   outputType   InlineTag
else outputtype == msword
   outputName   winwordlayout.layout/myemphW
   outputType   CharacterStyle
End

Environments would be similar.

Ideally it would be designed so that it doesn't syntax check inside the
output type's it's not. That way you can develop one output type at a
time without getting errors from the ones you haven't developed yet.

It seems to me that something like this would be a logical way of
turning LyX into a universal front end while changing very little of
LyX's core code.

I'm not a good enough programmer to do this in C++, so feel free to view
this suggestion with some healthy skepticism.

Thanks,

SteveT

Steve Litt*  http://www.troubleshooters.com/
Troubleshooting Training  *  Human Performance

Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

[Steve Litt]

Hi all,

On one of my writers' mailing list, after I said I used LyX, a guy who
really does have what once was a best-seller wrote this:

===
As for Lyx, you need to know that, with very few exceptions — none of
which immediately come to mind — open source programs have great appeal
for people who want to tinker with computers but almost none for those
who actually want to do something. Such apps tend to have butt ugly
interfaces and stupid names like Lyx and Snort and Gimp and Phlegm.
Last I saw, Lyx wasn't even WYSIWYG, for crying out loud. Forewarned is
forewarned. Or something like that.
===

I already wrote back mocking his position and pointing out that if Open
Source got his undies that tight in a bundle, maybe there's something
interesting there, maybe everyone should try LyX, after all, it's free,
and gave the www.lyx.org URL.

But I can tell you this guy is going to come back and say he's a great
and mighty best selling author, ask how many books have I sold. While
books provide a part of my income, I have no best sellers, either now
or in the past.

So, when he comes back and asks that, it would be *wonderful* to give
the writer's list one or more best seller books (I think something with
an Amazon rank of less than 5000 would do it), to refute his statement,
by counterexample.

I'll say one more thing. A lot of writers seem to be proud of their
technophobia, and say mean and stupid stuff about LyX and other Open
Source. On their behalf, please allow *this* writer to apologize.

And as always, keep up the good work producing a great book writing
software (and perhaps now a web authoring software).

Thanks,

SteveT

Steve Litt*  http://www.troubleshooters.com/
Troubleshooting Training  *  Human Performance