Bibliography/citation formatting issues

[Jeremy Wells]

In 2003, I evaluated several solutions for an academic word processing environment--e.g., word processor and a 
bibliography manager. I seriously considered Lyx, but ended up using MS Word and Endnote.


I have now come full circle and am again looking at Lyx in combination with JabRef. In my assessment, the biggest 
weakness of Lyx and Latex is problems with supporting different bibliography and citation styles. In my field (historic 
preservation), which is quite multidisciplinary, I may be called on to conform to hundreds of different 
bibliography/citation styles for which there is no relevant bibtex style file.


Moreover, most of my field's journals require formatting in the Chicago A/Turabian-like style with citations as endnotes 
or footnotes. To properly adhere to this style, there is a need for shortened forms of subsequent citations and/or the 
use of ibid for repeated citations, none of which are supported by any Bibtex style file. Bibliography managers like 
EndNote do support this complexity.


Right now, I am aware of only three options:

1. Write the paper using a bibliography/citation format different from what a particular journal requires, convert the 
latex file to RTF/Open Office/Word and then manually reformat the citations.

2. Manually enter the citations into Lyx.
3. Learn how to write Bibtex style files.

In reality, I don't like any of these.

Solutions?

-Jeremy

Re: Bibliography/citation formatting issues

[K. Elo]

Hi,

2006-06-15 08:19 -0400, Jeremy Wells:
 Moreover, most of my field's journals require formatting in the Chicago 
 A/Turabian-like style with citations as endnotes 
 or footnotes. To properly adhere to this style, there is a need for shortened 
 forms of subsequent citations and/or the 
 use of ibid for repeated citations, none of which are supported by any 
 Bibtex style file. Bibliography managers like 
 EndNote do support this complexity.

This is a topic only partially related to BibTex and, BTW, not wholly
correct. Maybe You should take a look on chapter 12 in The Latex
companion (2nd ed.), where You can find several possible solutions.

From my point of view, the core problem is that both Lyx and Latex are
used by a minority of all document producers. Thus, the perspectives for
making money by developing packages and styles is not very promising
(even if the users were ready to pay for such solutions). The
consequence is that users encountering problems, limits etc. must find
proper solutions by themselves. This, in turn, requires not only
knowledge above the level of an average Word user, but also time.

Kind regards,
Kimmo

Re: Bibliography/citation formatting issues

[Juergen Spitzmueller]

Jeremy Wells wrote:
 To properly adhere to this style, there is a need for shortened forms of
 subsequent citations and/or the use of ibid for repeated citations, none
 of which are supported by any Bibtex style file.

Not true. Jurabib supports all of this (www.jurabib.org).

Jürgen

Re: Bibliography/citation formatting issues

[Rich Shepard]

On Thu, 15 Jun 2006, Jeremy Wells wrote:


I have now come full circle and am again looking at Lyx in combination with
JabRef. In my assessment, the biggest weakness of Lyx and Latex is problems
with supporting different bibliography and citation styles. In my field
(historic preservation), which is quite multidisciplinary, I may be called
on to conform to hundreds of different bibliography/citation styles for
which there is no relevant bibtex style file.


Jeremy,

  I suppose that quite multidisciplinary is different from my subject
areas; they're only slightly multidisciplinary. :-)


Solutions?


  Yes: RefDB http://refdb.sourceforge.net/index.html. Markus is incredibly
responsive to requests for enhancements, the system supports many different
journal styles, and users come from a wide spectrum of subject specialties. A
fellow at a Canadian university's English Department heads their digital
antiquities project (or something like that) and uses RefDB. He asked for a
more automated install script, and a bunch of us are testing it on different
distributions and finding those things that work in FreeBSD but not linux.
The application can also read the formats of various on-line databases, too.

  RefDB works with PostgreSQL (8.1.x), Sqlite, Sqlite3, and MySQL. It can be
set up on a server separate from the clients, and users can share a single
database (with read access to entries not their own) or multiple databases.
It exports to BibTeX and RIS (perhaps other formats), and imports from those
as well as the on-line formats.

  Take a look. It's a great tool with a dedicated creator.

Rich

--
Richard B. Shepard, Ph.D.   |The Environmental Permitting
Applied Ecosystem Services, Inc.(TM)|Accelerator
http://www.appl-ecosys.com Voice: 503-667-4517  Fax: 503-667-8863

Re: Bibliography/citation formatting issues

[Jeremy Wells]

To reiterate, my main issue is with bibliography/citation formatting. I looked 
briefly at RefDB and rejected it because the documentation specifically said:

refdb performs only a very limited amount of formatting for those items which 
are not well supported in BibTeX. [...] All other formatting is left to the 
LaTeX/BibTeX system. (http://refdb.sourceforge.net/manual/x193.html#AEN210)

Has this changed? If not, I don't think RefDB will solve the problem.

-Jeremy


 - Original Message -
 From: Rich Shepard [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: Jeremy Wells [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Re: Bibliography/citation formatting issues
 Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 06:35:00 -0700 (PDT)
 
 
 On Thu, 15 Jun 2006, Jeremy Wells wrote:
 
  I have now come full circle and am again looking at Lyx in combination with
  JabRef. In my assessment, the biggest weakness of Lyx and Latex is problems
  with supporting different bibliography and citation styles. In my field
  (historic preservation), which is quite multidisciplinary, I may be called
  on to conform to hundreds of different bibliography/citation styles for
  which there is no relevant bibtex style file.
 
 Jeremy,
 
I suppose that quite multidisciplinary is different from my subject
 areas; they're only slightly multidisciplinary. :-)
 
  Solutions?
 
Yes: RefDB http://refdb.sourceforge.net/index.html. Markus is incredibly
 responsive to requests for enhancements, the system supports many different
 journal styles, and users come from a wide spectrum of subject specialties. A
 fellow at a Canadian university's English Department heads their digital
 antiquities project (or something like that) and uses RefDB. He asked for a
 more automated install script, and a bunch of us are testing it on different
 distributions and finding those things that work in FreeBSD but not linux.
 The application can also read the formats of various on-line databases, too.
 
RefDB works with PostgreSQL (8.1.x), Sqlite, Sqlite3, and MySQL. It can be
 set up on a server separate from the clients, and users can share a single
 database (with read access to entries not their own) or multiple databases.
 It exports to BibTeX and RIS (perhaps other formats), and imports from those
 as well as the on-line formats.
 
Take a look. It's a great tool with a dedicated creator.
 
 Rich
 
 -- Richard B. Shepard, Ph.D.   |The Environmental Permitting
 Applied Ecosystem Services, Inc.(TM)|Accelerator
 http://www.appl-ecosys.com Voice: 503-667-4517  Fax: 503-667-8863

Re: Bibliography/citation formatting issues

[Rich Shepard]

On Thu, 15 Jun 2006, Jeremy Wells wrote:


To reiterate, my main issue is with bibliography/citation formatting. I
looked briefly at RefDB and rejected it because the documentation
specifically said:



Has this changed? If not, I don't think RefDB will solve the problem.


Jeremy,

  No, it hasn't. NatBib or JuraBib may have the flexibility you need. And,
this resource may be helpful to you:
 http://web.reed.edu/cis/help/BibTeXstandard.html

Good luck!

Rich

--
Richard B. Shepard, Ph.D.   |The Environmental Permitting
Applied Ecosystem Services, Inc.(TM)|Accelerator
http://www.appl-ecosys.com Voice: 503-667-4517  Fax: 503-667-8863

Re: Bibliography/citation formatting issues

[Charles de Miramon]

Juergen Spitzmueller wrote:

 Jeremy Wells wrote:
 To properly adhere to this style, there is a need for shortened forms of
 subsequent citations and/or the use of ibid for repeated citations,
 none of which are supported by any Bibtex style file.
 
 Not true. Jurabib supports all of this (www.jurabib.org).
 
 Jürgen

Turabian and Jurabib : --
http://angasm.org/2006/01/turabian-chicago-and-latex.html

Jurabib has also a not very well documented features for citing archival
sources.

Cheers,
Charles
-- 
http://www.kde-france.org

Bibliography/citation formatting issues

[Jeremy Wells]

In 2003, I evaluated several solutions for an academic word processing environment--e.g., word processor and a 
bibliography manager. I seriously considered Lyx, but ended up using MS Word and Endnote.


I have now come full circle and am again looking at Lyx in combination with JabRef. In my assessment, the biggest 
weakness of Lyx and Latex is problems with supporting different bibliography and citation styles. In my field (historic 
preservation), which is quite multidisciplinary, I may be called on to conform to hundreds of different 
bibliography/citation styles for which there is no relevant bibtex style file.


Moreover, most of my field's journals require formatting in the Chicago A/Turabian-like style with citations as endnotes 
or footnotes. To properly adhere to this style, there is a need for shortened forms of subsequent citations and/or the 
use of ibid for repeated citations, none of which are supported by any Bibtex style file. Bibliography managers like 
EndNote do support this complexity.


Right now, I am aware of only three options:

1. Write the paper using a bibliography/citation format different from what a particular journal requires, convert the 
latex file to RTF/Open Office/Word and then manually reformat the citations.

2. Manually enter the citations into Lyx.
3. Learn how to write Bibtex style files.

In reality, I don't like any of these.

Solutions?

-Jeremy

Re: Bibliography/citation formatting issues

[K. Elo]

Hi,

2006-06-15 08:19 -0400, Jeremy Wells:
 Moreover, most of my field's journals require formatting in the Chicago 
 A/Turabian-like style with citations as endnotes 
 or footnotes. To properly adhere to this style, there is a need for shortened 
 forms of subsequent citations and/or the 
 use of ibid for repeated citations, none of which are supported by any 
 Bibtex style file. Bibliography managers like 
 EndNote do support this complexity.

This is a topic only partially related to BibTex and, BTW, not wholly
correct. Maybe You should take a look on chapter 12 in The Latex
companion (2nd ed.), where You can find several possible solutions.

From my point of view, the core problem is that both Lyx and Latex are
used by a minority of all document producers. Thus, the perspectives for
making money by developing packages and styles is not very promising
(even if the users were ready to pay for such solutions). The
consequence is that users encountering problems, limits etc. must find
proper solutions by themselves. This, in turn, requires not only
knowledge above the level of an average Word user, but also time.

Kind regards,
Kimmo

Re: Bibliography/citation formatting issues

[Juergen Spitzmueller]

Jeremy Wells wrote:
 To properly adhere to this style, there is a need for shortened forms of
 subsequent citations and/or the use of ibid for repeated citations, none
 of which are supported by any Bibtex style file.

Not true. Jurabib supports all of this (www.jurabib.org).

Jürgen

Re: Bibliography/citation formatting issues

[Rich Shepard]

On Thu, 15 Jun 2006, Jeremy Wells wrote:


I have now come full circle and am again looking at Lyx in combination with
JabRef. In my assessment, the biggest weakness of Lyx and Latex is problems
with supporting different bibliography and citation styles. In my field
(historic preservation), which is quite multidisciplinary, I may be called
on to conform to hundreds of different bibliography/citation styles for
which there is no relevant bibtex style file.


Jeremy,

  I suppose that quite multidisciplinary is different from my subject
areas; they're only slightly multidisciplinary. :-)


Solutions?


  Yes: RefDB http://refdb.sourceforge.net/index.html. Markus is incredibly
responsive to requests for enhancements, the system supports many different
journal styles, and users come from a wide spectrum of subject specialties. A
fellow at a Canadian university's English Department heads their digital
antiquities project (or something like that) and uses RefDB. He asked for a
more automated install script, and a bunch of us are testing it on different
distributions and finding those things that work in FreeBSD but not linux.
The application can also read the formats of various on-line databases, too.

  RefDB works with PostgreSQL (8.1.x), Sqlite, Sqlite3, and MySQL. It can be
set up on a server separate from the clients, and users can share a single
database (with read access to entries not their own) or multiple databases.
It exports to BibTeX and RIS (perhaps other formats), and imports from those
as well as the on-line formats.

  Take a look. It's a great tool with a dedicated creator.

Rich

--
Richard B. Shepard, Ph.D.   |The Environmental Permitting
Applied Ecosystem Services, Inc.(TM)|Accelerator
http://www.appl-ecosys.com Voice: 503-667-4517  Fax: 503-667-8863

Re: Bibliography/citation formatting issues

[Jeremy Wells]

To reiterate, my main issue is with bibliography/citation formatting. I looked 
briefly at RefDB and rejected it because the documentation specifically said:

refdb performs only a very limited amount of formatting for those items which 
are not well supported in BibTeX. [...] All other formatting is left to the 
LaTeX/BibTeX system. (http://refdb.sourceforge.net/manual/x193.html#AEN210)

Has this changed? If not, I don't think RefDB will solve the problem.

-Jeremy


 - Original Message -
 From: Rich Shepard [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: Jeremy Wells [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Re: Bibliography/citation formatting issues
 Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 06:35:00 -0700 (PDT)
 
 
 On Thu, 15 Jun 2006, Jeremy Wells wrote:
 
  I have now come full circle and am again looking at Lyx in combination with
  JabRef. In my assessment, the biggest weakness of Lyx and Latex is problems
  with supporting different bibliography and citation styles. In my field
  (historic preservation), which is quite multidisciplinary, I may be called
  on to conform to hundreds of different bibliography/citation styles for
  which there is no relevant bibtex style file.
 
 Jeremy,
 
I suppose that quite multidisciplinary is different from my subject
 areas; they're only slightly multidisciplinary. :-)
 
  Solutions?
 
Yes: RefDB http://refdb.sourceforge.net/index.html. Markus is incredibly
 responsive to requests for enhancements, the system supports many different
 journal styles, and users come from a wide spectrum of subject specialties. A
 fellow at a Canadian university's English Department heads their digital
 antiquities project (or something like that) and uses RefDB. He asked for a
 more automated install script, and a bunch of us are testing it on different
 distributions and finding those things that work in FreeBSD but not linux.
 The application can also read the formats of various on-line databases, too.
 
RefDB works with PostgreSQL (8.1.x), Sqlite, Sqlite3, and MySQL. It can be
 set up on a server separate from the clients, and users can share a single
 database (with read access to entries not their own) or multiple databases.
 It exports to BibTeX and RIS (perhaps other formats), and imports from those
 as well as the on-line formats.
 
Take a look. It's a great tool with a dedicated creator.
 
 Rich
 
 -- Richard B. Shepard, Ph.D.   |The Environmental Permitting
 Applied Ecosystem Services, Inc.(TM)|Accelerator
 http://www.appl-ecosys.com Voice: 503-667-4517  Fax: 503-667-8863

Re: Bibliography/citation formatting issues

[Rich Shepard]

On Thu, 15 Jun 2006, Jeremy Wells wrote:


To reiterate, my main issue is with bibliography/citation formatting. I
looked briefly at RefDB and rejected it because the documentation
specifically said:



Has this changed? If not, I don't think RefDB will solve the problem.


Jeremy,

  No, it hasn't. NatBib or JuraBib may have the flexibility you need. And,
this resource may be helpful to you:
 http://web.reed.edu/cis/help/BibTeXstandard.html

Good luck!

Rich

--
Richard B. Shepard, Ph.D.   |The Environmental Permitting
Applied Ecosystem Services, Inc.(TM)|Accelerator
http://www.appl-ecosys.com Voice: 503-667-4517  Fax: 503-667-8863

Re: Bibliography/citation formatting issues

[Charles de Miramon]

Juergen Spitzmueller wrote:

 Jeremy Wells wrote:
 To properly adhere to this style, there is a need for shortened forms of
 subsequent citations and/or the use of ibid for repeated citations,
 none of which are supported by any Bibtex style file.
 
 Not true. Jurabib supports all of this (www.jurabib.org).
 
 Jürgen

Turabian and Jurabib : --
http://angasm.org/2006/01/turabian-chicago-and-latex.html

Jurabib has also a not very well documented features for citing archival
sources.

Cheers,
Charles
-- 
http://www.kde-france.org

Bibliography/citation formatting issues

[Jeremy Wells]

In 2003, I evaluated several solutions for an academic word processing environment--e.g., word processor and a 
bibliography manager. I seriously considered Lyx, but ended up using MS Word and Endnote.


I have now come full circle and am again looking at Lyx in combination with JabRef. In my assessment, the biggest 
weakness of Lyx and Latex is problems with supporting different bibliography and citation styles. In my field (historic 
preservation), which is quite multidisciplinary, I may be called on to conform to hundreds of different 
bibliography/citation styles for which there is no relevant bibtex style file.


Moreover, most of my field's journals require formatting in the Chicago A/Turabian-like style with citations as endnotes 
or footnotes. To properly adhere to this style, there is a need for shortened forms of subsequent citations and/or the 
use of "ibid" for repeated citations, none of which are supported by any Bibtex style file. Bibliography managers like 
EndNote do support this complexity.


Right now, I am aware of only three options:

1. Write the paper using a bibliography/citation format different from what a particular journal requires, convert the 
latex file to RTF/Open Office/Word and then manually reformat the citations.

2. Manually enter the citations into Lyx.
3. Learn how to write Bibtex style files.

In reality, I don't like any of these.

Solutions?

-Jeremy

Re: Bibliography/citation formatting issues

[K. Elo]

Hi,

2006-06-15 08:19 -0400, Jeremy Wells:
> Moreover, most of my field's journals require formatting in the Chicago 
> A/Turabian-like style with citations as endnotes 
> or footnotes. To properly adhere to this style, there is a need for shortened 
> forms of subsequent citations and/or the 
> use of "ibid" for repeated citations, none of which are supported by any 
> Bibtex style file. Bibliography managers like 
> EndNote do support this complexity.

This is a topic only partially related to BibTex and, BTW, not wholly
correct. Maybe You should take a look on chapter 12 in "The Latex
companion (2nd ed.)", where You can find several possible solutions.

>From my point of view, the core problem is that both Lyx and Latex are
used by a minority of all document producers. Thus, the perspectives for
making money by developing packages and styles is not very promising
(even if the users were ready to pay for such solutions). The
consequence is that users encountering problems, limits etc. must find
proper solutions by themselves. This, in turn, requires not only
knowledge above the level of an "average" Word user, but also time.

Kind regards,
Kimmo

Re: Bibliography/citation formatting issues

[Juergen Spitzmueller]

Jeremy Wells wrote:
> To properly adhere to this style, there is a need for shortened forms of
> subsequent citations and/or the use of "ibid" for repeated citations, none
> of which are supported by any Bibtex style file.

Not true. Jurabib supports all of this (www.jurabib.org).

Jürgen

Re: Bibliography/citation formatting issues

[Rich Shepard]

On Thu, 15 Jun 2006, Jeremy Wells wrote:


I have now come full circle and am again looking at Lyx in combination with
JabRef. In my assessment, the biggest weakness of Lyx and Latex is problems
with supporting different bibliography and citation styles. In my field
(historic preservation), which is quite multidisciplinary, I may be called
on to conform to hundreds of different bibliography/citation styles for
which there is no relevant bibtex style file.


Jeremy,

  I suppose that "quite multidisciplinary" is different from my subject
areas; they're only "slightly multidisciplinary." :-)


Solutions?


  Yes: RefDB . Markus is incredibly
responsive to requests for enhancements, the system supports many different
journal styles, and users come from a wide spectrum of subject specialties. A
fellow at a Canadian university's English Department heads their digital
antiquities project (or something like that) and uses RefDB. He asked for a
more automated install script, and a bunch of us are testing it on different
distributions and finding those things that work in FreeBSD but not linux.
The application can also read the formats of various on-line databases, too.

  RefDB works with PostgreSQL (8.1.x), Sqlite, Sqlite3, and MySQL. It can be
set up on a server separate from the clients, and users can share a single
database (with read access to entries not their own) or multiple databases.
It exports to BibTeX and RIS (perhaps other formats), and imports from those
as well as the on-line formats.

  Take a look. It's a great tool with a dedicated creator.

Rich

--
Richard B. Shepard, Ph.D.   |The Environmental Permitting
Applied Ecosystem Services, Inc.(TM)|Accelerator
 Voice: 503-667-4517  Fax: 503-667-8863

Re: Bibliography/citation formatting issues

[Jeremy Wells]

To reiterate, my main issue is with bibliography/citation formatting. I looked 
briefly at RefDB and rejected it because the documentation specifically said:

"refdb performs only a very limited amount of formatting for those items which 
are not well supported in BibTeX. [...] All other formatting is left to the 
LaTeX/BibTeX system." (http://refdb.sourceforge.net/manual/x193.html#AEN210)

Has this changed? If not, I don't think RefDB will solve the problem.

-Jeremy


> - Original Message -
> From: "Rich Shepard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Jeremy Wells" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: Bibliography/citation formatting issues
> Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 06:35:00 -0700 (PDT)
> 
> 
> On Thu, 15 Jun 2006, Jeremy Wells wrote:
> 
> > I have now come full circle and am again looking at Lyx in combination with
> > JabRef. In my assessment, the biggest weakness of Lyx and Latex is problems
> > with supporting different bibliography and citation styles. In my field
> > (historic preservation), which is quite multidisciplinary, I may be called
> > on to conform to hundreds of different bibliography/citation styles for
> > which there is no relevant bibtex style file.
> 
> Jeremy,
> 
>I suppose that "quite multidisciplinary" is different from my subject
> areas; they're only "slightly multidisciplinary." :-)
> 
> > Solutions?
> 
>Yes: RefDB <http://refdb.sourceforge.net/index.html>. Markus is incredibly
> responsive to requests for enhancements, the system supports many different
> journal styles, and users come from a wide spectrum of subject specialties. A
> fellow at a Canadian university's English Department heads their digital
> antiquities project (or something like that) and uses RefDB. He asked for a
> more automated install script, and a bunch of us are testing it on different
> distributions and finding those things that work in FreeBSD but not linux.
> The application can also read the formats of various on-line databases, too.
> 
>RefDB works with PostgreSQL (8.1.x), Sqlite, Sqlite3, and MySQL. It can be
> set up on a server separate from the clients, and users can share a single
> database (with read access to entries not their own) or multiple databases.
> It exports to BibTeX and RIS (perhaps other formats), and imports from those
> as well as the on-line formats.
> 
>Take a look. It's a great tool with a dedicated creator.
> 
> Rich
> 
> -- Richard B. Shepard, Ph.D.   |The Environmental Permitting
> Applied Ecosystem Services, Inc.(TM)|Accelerator
> <http://www.appl-ecosys.com> Voice: 503-667-4517  Fax: 503-667-8863

>

Re: Bibliography/citation formatting issues

[Rich Shepard]

On Thu, 15 Jun 2006, Jeremy Wells wrote:


To reiterate, my main issue is with bibliography/citation formatting. I
looked briefly at RefDB and rejected it because the documentation
specifically said:



Has this changed? If not, I don't think RefDB will solve the problem.


Jeremy,

  No, it hasn't. NatBib or JuraBib may have the flexibility you need. And,
this resource may be helpful to you:
 

Good luck!

Rich

--
Richard B. Shepard, Ph.D.   |The Environmental Permitting
Applied Ecosystem Services, Inc.(TM)|Accelerator
 Voice: 503-667-4517  Fax: 503-667-8863

Re: Bibliography/citation formatting issues

[Charles de Miramon]

Juergen Spitzmueller wrote:

> Jeremy Wells wrote:
>> To properly adhere to this style, there is a need for shortened forms of
>> subsequent citations and/or the use of "ibid" for repeated citations,
>> none of which are supported by any Bibtex style file.
> 
> Not true. Jurabib supports all of this (www.jurabib.org).
> 
> Jürgen

Turabian and Jurabib : -->
http://angasm.org/2006/01/turabian-chicago-and-latex.html

Jurabib has also a not very well documented features for citing archival
sources.

Cheers,
Charles
-- 
http://www.kde-france.org