Re: Can't enter extra whitespace when editing.
On Tue, 2007-06-26 at 07:43 +0200, Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote: Darren I'm not talking about a functional change, I'm talking about a Darren user interface change back to past behaviour that was probably Darren once considered correct. This was _not_ past behaviour. An excerpt of a message where another person remembers what I think I remember. Maybe it was just a bug. Anyway I thought it was better. Forwarded Message From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Can't enter extra whitespace when editing. Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 13:54:52 +0200 On Wed, 20 Jun 2007, Darren Freeman wrote: On Wed, 2007-06-20 at 10:01 +0200, Enrico Forestieri wrote: I just checked that LyX 1.1.6fix4 and 1.3.7 didn't allow that. So, I would say that it has always been like that. I take your word for it, perhaps my memory is faulty. I remember that behaviour as well, but probably from LyX 1.3.3 or so...
Re: Can't enter extra whitespace when editing.
Darren == Darren Freeman [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Darren On Tue, 2007-06-26 at 07:43 +0200, Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote: Darren I'm not talking about a functional change, I'm talking about a Darren user interface change back to past behaviour that was probably Darren once considered correct. This was _not_ past behaviour. Darren An excerpt of a message where another person remembers what I Darren think I remember. Maybe it was just a bug. Anyway I thought it Darren was better. I happen to have LyX 1.3.3 installed on this machine and it does not exhibit the behavior you describe. Actually, I think the current one was already built-in since the first releases of LyX. As someone who has been around since 1995, I do not remember anything different. Of course the above stands for the initial claim once upon a time, I could type extra whitespace between words and then it would magically go away when I left that region of text. Now, extra space keypresses have no effect and I feel like I'm in a straight-jacket. I can still insert a space *before* an existing space, because I might be about to type a word between them, just not after one. Anybody else get that feeling or prefer the old behaviour? [* later... *] But since I know that somewhere deep inside you do not believe me, I downloaded lyx-0.7p4-d3 from October 1995 (the oldest we have), and found inside it a document titled something like Word processing with LyX High Level Word Processor based on TeX/LaTeX (LyX 0.71, Documentation 0.7p1) Copyright (C) 1995 Matthias Ettrich You can find this document here for your enjoyment: http://www-rocq.inria.fr/~lasgoutt/lyx/Documentation.lyx Of course, Jose' being the lazy guy we have learned to love (and hate), lyx2lyx is not able to read this file and yours truly had to apply the patent-pending lyx2t::bh technique (aka LyX to Text by hand). The document starts with an introduction and some installation instruction, and the only other section describe what is in the author's mind the great idea behind LyX: Differences from usual word processors What sets LyX apart from other word processors is that it is a graphical front-end to a general mark-up typesetting system with extensive macro capabilities, not an extended typewriter. Usual word processors are in fact highly developed typewriters, but still compatible with their predecessors. And as far I can see they are still used as if they were simple typewriters. This is done for two reasons: The average user is not a specialist in typography (and shouldn't be!) and the programs don't help him at all with this (This shouldn't be, either!). But these programs are totally happy to be used as a typewriter, that everybody could work with, but which leads to terrible results. For example: * To emphasize words, they are underlined. The underline is simply a horizontal line on the base of the typing line. Letters like g, j, p, and q are cut by this line, and partially obscured. What is necessary on a typewriter becomes with modern typesetting software a very poor custom, which can be replaced by several text styles and sizes. * In order to set headings or titles two blank lines above and one below the line are added. On a typewriter this is the best approximation to correct typesetting, but it is only an approximation. In particular small headings like subsections are separated too far from the rest of the text. Furthermore, through this practice it's possible to create awkward page breaks. A page break There shouldn't occur between a heading and the following text. But how can the computer avoid this, if it doesn't know that is is a heading? Or, if it knows it, but an empty line follows? And what should be be done with all these empty lines at the top of a page? Ignored? What if the user just wants to paste a picture in there later? To summarize this issue: Creating headings and vertical spaces manually using blank lines is an obsolete technique with grave disadvantages. But it is common usage (I found this even in books with titles like Professional writing with for ***). On very short documents (about two or three pages) this is not usually a problem, but it can be in a longer one. Correcting these errors will require considerable manual labor. Finally, every change in the document will effect the page breaks of all following pages, which will result in even more work to correct the new errors that crop up. And why do all these stupid pagebreaks manually, if you have a computer? * In order to indent a line blanks are used. In this way you can certainly build up a table, list or a simple description, but it would be very primitive. Changes in one line require considerable editing, since following
Re: Can't enter extra whitespace when editing.
Darren Freeman wrote: On Mon, 2007-06-25 at 13:06 +0200, Helge Hafting wrote: Darren Freeman wrote: It feels more natural to have all my key-presses honoured on the screen. When certain keys are sometimes disabled, it just doesn't feel right. There are lots of limitations like that. You can't use the right-arrow to move the cursor past the end of the document either - even if you might want to put some text in the lower-right corner. And you can't erase past the beginning of the document, Now you're being silly. You can't do that in ordinary text editors either. There are certainly editors that lets you move the cursor way out to the right even if there is nothing there. If you then type something there, a long string of spaces is inserted automatically so you get your huge indentation. This style of editor was popular among programmers, as this is a reasonable operation on source code where indentation matters. I know people who got upset by stream oriented editors that didn't let them do this. I'm not talking about a functional change, I'm talking about a user interface change back to past behaviour that was probably once considered correct. LyX never had this for normal text. You can press several spaces in a row using the style LyX-Code, and that's it. This because LyX recognises this special need for printed computer code. Helge Hafting
Re: Can't enter extra whitespace when editing.
On Tue, 2007-06-26 at 10:00 +0200, Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote: I happen to have LyX 1.3.3 installed on this machine and it does not exhibit the behavior you describe. Actually, I think the current one was already built-in since the first releases of LyX. As someone who has been around since 1995, I do not remember anything different. Okay you win :) If I'm not talking about past behaviour then I'm proposing a new feature :) And I know your vote is -1.. Of course the above stands for the initial claim once upon a time, I could type extra whitespace between words and then it would magically go away when I left that region of text. Now, extra space keypresses have no effect and I feel like I'm in a straight-jacket. I can still insert a space *before* an existing space, because I might be about to type a word between them, just not after one. Anybody else get that feeling or prefer the old behaviour? [* later... *] But since I know that somewhere deep inside you do not believe me, I downloaded lyx-0.7p4-d3 from October 1995 (the oldest we have), and found inside it a document titled something like Dude, that's way more effort than anybody should have put in. But thanks ;) Of course, Jose' being the lazy guy we have learned to love (and hate), lyx2lyx is not able to read this file and yours truly had to apply the patent-pending lyx2t::bh technique (aka LyX to Text by hand). The document starts with an introduction and some installation You couldn't use the old version of LyX to export it to LaTeX? Or didn't you have an old enough system with xforms to compile against :) instruction, and the only other section describe what is in the author's mind the great idea behind LyX: insert empty paragraphs. No matter how many spaces are typed between words, only a single space between the words will appear. Blank spaces at the beginning of a paragraph are completely taboo. Indentation of Actually I don't see the conflict between my suggestion and this part of the documentation. For once you move the cursor away, it will be cleaned up and you'll be left with a single space. Now I hope you are convinced that LyX has never been supposed to work as you claim. You may like it or not like it, but I think that in Matthias Ettrich mind, it was _the_ feature that sets LyX apart from other word processors, the one he was proud of. Sure that was the plan. I'm proposing a fairly minor UI tweak that doesn't affect the overall result. By the way, nobody has yet answered my concerns about the dangling space at the end of a paragraph. That has been allowed for as long as I can remember but it adds nothing (to my knowledge). Sure it's allowed so you can continue typing, but once you cursor away from the paragraph it's just redundant. Anyway I don't have much interest in this thread, it was a quick and fairly random suggestion and nobody has put in their support. Have fun, Darren
Re: Can't enter extra whitespace when editing.
Darren == Darren Freeman [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Darren On Tue, 2007-06-26 at 10:00 +0200, Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote: I happen to have LyX 1.3.3 installed on this machine and it does not exhibit the behavior you describe. Actually, I think the current one was already built-in since the first releases of LyX. As someone who has been around since 1995, I do not remember anything different. Darren Okay you win :) If I'm not talking about past behaviour then Darren I'm proposing a new feature :) And I know your vote is -1.. Yes :) But since I know that somewhere deep inside you do not believe me, I downloaded lyx-0.7p4-d3 from October 1995 (the oldest we have), and found inside it a document titled something like Darren Dude, that's way more effort than anybody should have put in. Darren But thanks ;) My point was more to set the record right. And since I was sure I would find something there, it was a funny thing to do. Remember that at that time, the whole unpacked source was 700k (now: 55M), and there was only one documentation file :) Darren You couldn't use the old version of LyX to export it to LaTeX? Darren Or didn't you have an old enough system with xforms to compile Darren against :) I was too lazy to try to compile it (I would need an ancient version of xforms, the latest would not be OK). insert empty paragraphs. No matter how many spaces are typed between words, only a single space between the words will appear. Blank spaces at the beginning of a paragraph are completely taboo. Indentation of Darren Actually I don't see the conflict between my suggestion and Darren this part of the documentation. For once you move the cursor Darren away, it will be cleaned up and you'll be left with a single Darren space. What is the point of showing spaces that will not stick? The would be even more confusing. Darren By the way, nobody has yet answered my concerns about the Darren dangling space at the end of a paragraph. That has been Darren allowed for as long as I can remember but it adds nothing (to Darren my knowledge). Sure it's allowed so you can continue typing, Darren but once you cursor away from the paragraph it's just Darren redundant. I agree that spaces in front or at the end of paragraphs should be removed by DEPM. JMarc
Re: Can't enter extra whitespace when editing.
On Tue, 2007-06-26 at 12:47 +0200, Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote: would find something there, it was a funny thing to do. Remember that at that time, the whole unpacked source was 700k (now: 55M), and there was only one documentation file :) Also only one developer, minimum inline documentation, no i18n, no icons, right? :) That would account for all the remaining bytes ;) Darren By the way, nobody has yet answered my concerns about the Darren dangling space at the end of a paragraph. That has been Darren allowed for as long as I can remember but it adds nothing (to Darren my knowledge). Sure it's allowed so you can continue typing, Darren but once you cursor away from the paragraph it's just Darren redundant. I agree that spaces in front or at the end of paragraphs should be removed by DEPM. Wouldn't that be a trivial thing to fix? Have fun, Darren
Re: Can't enter extra whitespace when editing.
Darren == Darren Freeman [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Darren On Tue, 2007-06-26 at 12:47 +0200, Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote: would find something there, it was a funny thing to do. Remember that at that time, the whole unpacked source was 700k (now: 55M), and there was only one documentation file :) Darren Also only one developer, minimum inline documentation, no Darren i18n, no icons, right? :) That would account for all the Darren remaining bytes ;) The second developer (Lars) shows up in the next version 0.7p4-d4. There were 16 icons (some of them with B/W versions). You can see the beast here: http://www.lyx.org/~jamatos/archaeology/lyx-time.html You will remark that everything is in a strange order. This is because ancient xforms versions did not have the same sign conventions on the y axis. I agree that spaces in front or at the end of paragraphs should be removed by DEPM. Darren Wouldn't that be a trivial thing to fix? Sure. But not urgent probably. JMarc
Re: Can't enter extra whitespace when editing.
Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote: Darren == Darren Freeman [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: And you can't erase past the beginning of the document, Darren Now you're being silly. You can't do that in ordinary text Darren editors either. But LyX is no ordinary text editor. Darren I'm not talking about a functional change, I'm talking about a Darren user interface change back to past behaviour that was probably Darren once considered correct. This was _not_ past behaviour. JMarc Was not the original behavior, to always pop a gentle nudge reminder in the bar at the bottom of the window indicating something along the lines two spaces don't make sense here.? The current revs [at least since 1.4.3] only do it once. I liked the old behavior of reminding me that I had escaped an Office product, after a few hours of lyx editing I would get used to it again and enjoy the lack of need to do hand formating. $0.02 -- Todd Denniston Crane Division, Naval Surface Warfare Center (NSWC Crane) Harnessing the Power of Technology for the Warfighter
Re: Can't enter extra whitespace when editing.
Todd == Todd Denniston [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Todd Was not the original behavior, to always pop a gentle nudge Todd reminder in the bar at the bottom of the window indicating Todd something along the lines two spaces don't make sense here.? Todd The current revs [at least since 1.4.3] only do it once. I liked Todd the old behavior of reminding me that I had escaped an Office Todd product, after a few hours of lyx editing I would get used to it Todd again and enjoy the lack of need to do hand formating. The change was done in version 1.2.0, in 2001... JMarc
Re: Can't enter extra whitespace when editing.
Darren Freeman wrote: On Tue, 2007-06-26 at 12:47 +0200, Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote: would find something there, it was a funny thing to do. Remember that at that time, the whole unpacked source was 700k (now: 55M), and there was only one documentation file :) Also only one developer, minimum inline documentation, no i18n, no icons, right? :) That would account for all the remaining bytes ;) Who's the one that weights so many bytes? ;-) Darren By the way, nobody has yet answered my concerns about the Darren dangling space at the end of a paragraph. That has been Darren allowed for as long as I can remember but it adds nothing (to Darren my knowledge). Sure it's allowed so you can continue typing, Darren but once you cursor away from the paragraph it's just Darren redundant. I agree that spaces in front or at the end of paragraphs should be removed by DEPM. Wouldn't that be a trivial thing to fix? Please don't fix it... DEPM is already painful as it is. Think about cutpasting some word. (when you go to cut it, the space gets removed, so then you insert and you have to go back and find the position to re-add it etc...) Spaces at the front are a different matter though, but I thought they cannot be normally entered in the first place. A/
Re: Can't enter extra whitespace when editing.
On Tue, 2007-06-26 at 07:43 +0200, Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote: Darren I'm not talking about a functional change, I'm talking about a Darren user interface change back to past behaviour that was probably Darren once considered correct. This was _not_ past behaviour. An excerpt of a message where another person remembers what I think I remember. Maybe it was just a bug. Anyway I thought it was better. Forwarded Message From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Can't enter extra whitespace when editing. Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 13:54:52 +0200 On Wed, 20 Jun 2007, Darren Freeman wrote: On Wed, 2007-06-20 at 10:01 +0200, Enrico Forestieri wrote: I just checked that LyX 1.1.6fix4 and 1.3.7 didn't allow that. So, I would say that it has always been like that. I take your word for it, perhaps my memory is faulty. I remember that behaviour as well, but probably from LyX 1.3.3 or so...
Re: Can't enter extra whitespace when editing.
Darren == Darren Freeman [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Darren On Tue, 2007-06-26 at 07:43 +0200, Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote: Darren I'm not talking about a functional change, I'm talking about a Darren user interface change back to past behaviour that was probably Darren once considered correct. This was _not_ past behaviour. Darren An excerpt of a message where another person remembers what I Darren think I remember. Maybe it was just a bug. Anyway I thought it Darren was better. I happen to have LyX 1.3.3 installed on this machine and it does not exhibit the behavior you describe. Actually, I think the current one was already built-in since the first releases of LyX. As someone who has been around since 1995, I do not remember anything different. Of course the above stands for the initial claim once upon a time, I could type extra whitespace between words and then it would magically go away when I left that region of text. Now, extra space keypresses have no effect and I feel like I'm in a straight-jacket. I can still insert a space *before* an existing space, because I might be about to type a word between them, just not after one. Anybody else get that feeling or prefer the old behaviour? [* later... *] But since I know that somewhere deep inside you do not believe me, I downloaded lyx-0.7p4-d3 from October 1995 (the oldest we have), and found inside it a document titled something like Word processing with LyX High Level Word Processor based on TeX/LaTeX (LyX 0.71, Documentation 0.7p1) Copyright (C) 1995 Matthias Ettrich You can find this document here for your enjoyment: http://www-rocq.inria.fr/~lasgoutt/lyx/Documentation.lyx Of course, Jose' being the lazy guy we have learned to love (and hate), lyx2lyx is not able to read this file and yours truly had to apply the patent-pending lyx2t::bh technique (aka LyX to Text by hand). The document starts with an introduction and some installation instruction, and the only other section describe what is in the author's mind the great idea behind LyX: Differences from usual word processors What sets LyX apart from other word processors is that it is a graphical front-end to a general mark-up typesetting system with extensive macro capabilities, not an extended typewriter. Usual word processors are in fact highly developed typewriters, but still compatible with their predecessors. And as far I can see they are still used as if they were simple typewriters. This is done for two reasons: The average user is not a specialist in typography (and shouldn't be!) and the programs don't help him at all with this (This shouldn't be, either!). But these programs are totally happy to be used as a typewriter, that everybody could work with, but which leads to terrible results. For example: * To emphasize words, they are underlined. The underline is simply a horizontal line on the base of the typing line. Letters like g, j, p, and q are cut by this line, and partially obscured. What is necessary on a typewriter becomes with modern typesetting software a very poor custom, which can be replaced by several text styles and sizes. * In order to set headings or titles two blank lines above and one below the line are added. On a typewriter this is the best approximation to correct typesetting, but it is only an approximation. In particular small headings like subsections are separated too far from the rest of the text. Furthermore, through this practice it's possible to create awkward page breaks. A page break There shouldn't occur between a heading and the following text. But how can the computer avoid this, if it doesn't know that is is a heading? Or, if it knows it, but an empty line follows? And what should be be done with all these empty lines at the top of a page? Ignored? What if the user just wants to paste a picture in there later? To summarize this issue: Creating headings and vertical spaces manually using blank lines is an obsolete technique with grave disadvantages. But it is common usage (I found this even in books with titles like Professional writing with for ***). On very short documents (about two or three pages) this is not usually a problem, but it can be in a longer one. Correcting these errors will require considerable manual labor. Finally, every change in the document will effect the page breaks of all following pages, which will result in even more work to correct the new errors that crop up. And why do all these stupid pagebreaks manually, if you have a computer? * In order to indent a line blanks are used. In this way you can certainly build up a table, list or a simple description, but it would be very primitive. Changes in one line require considerable editing, since following
Re: Can't enter extra whitespace when editing.
Darren Freeman wrote: On Mon, 2007-06-25 at 13:06 +0200, Helge Hafting wrote: Darren Freeman wrote: It feels more natural to have all my key-presses honoured on the screen. When certain keys are sometimes disabled, it just doesn't feel right. There are lots of limitations like that. You can't use the right-arrow to move the cursor past the end of the document either - even if you might want to put some text in the lower-right corner. And you can't erase past the beginning of the document, Now you're being silly. You can't do that in ordinary text editors either. There are certainly editors that lets you move the cursor way out to the right even if there is nothing there. If you then type something there, a long string of spaces is inserted automatically so you get your huge indentation. This style of editor was popular among programmers, as this is a reasonable operation on source code where indentation matters. I know people who got upset by stream oriented editors that didn't let them do this. I'm not talking about a functional change, I'm talking about a user interface change back to past behaviour that was probably once considered correct. LyX never had this for normal text. You can press several spaces in a row using the style LyX-Code, and that's it. This because LyX recognises this special need for printed computer code. Helge Hafting
Re: Can't enter extra whitespace when editing.
On Tue, 2007-06-26 at 10:00 +0200, Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote: I happen to have LyX 1.3.3 installed on this machine and it does not exhibit the behavior you describe. Actually, I think the current one was already built-in since the first releases of LyX. As someone who has been around since 1995, I do not remember anything different. Okay you win :) If I'm not talking about past behaviour then I'm proposing a new feature :) And I know your vote is -1.. Of course the above stands for the initial claim once upon a time, I could type extra whitespace between words and then it would magically go away when I left that region of text. Now, extra space keypresses have no effect and I feel like I'm in a straight-jacket. I can still insert a space *before* an existing space, because I might be about to type a word between them, just not after one. Anybody else get that feeling or prefer the old behaviour? [* later... *] But since I know that somewhere deep inside you do not believe me, I downloaded lyx-0.7p4-d3 from October 1995 (the oldest we have), and found inside it a document titled something like Dude, that's way more effort than anybody should have put in. But thanks ;) Of course, Jose' being the lazy guy we have learned to love (and hate), lyx2lyx is not able to read this file and yours truly had to apply the patent-pending lyx2t::bh technique (aka LyX to Text by hand). The document starts with an introduction and some installation You couldn't use the old version of LyX to export it to LaTeX? Or didn't you have an old enough system with xforms to compile against :) instruction, and the only other section describe what is in the author's mind the great idea behind LyX: insert empty paragraphs. No matter how many spaces are typed between words, only a single space between the words will appear. Blank spaces at the beginning of a paragraph are completely taboo. Indentation of Actually I don't see the conflict between my suggestion and this part of the documentation. For once you move the cursor away, it will be cleaned up and you'll be left with a single space. Now I hope you are convinced that LyX has never been supposed to work as you claim. You may like it or not like it, but I think that in Matthias Ettrich mind, it was _the_ feature that sets LyX apart from other word processors, the one he was proud of. Sure that was the plan. I'm proposing a fairly minor UI tweak that doesn't affect the overall result. By the way, nobody has yet answered my concerns about the dangling space at the end of a paragraph. That has been allowed for as long as I can remember but it adds nothing (to my knowledge). Sure it's allowed so you can continue typing, but once you cursor away from the paragraph it's just redundant. Anyway I don't have much interest in this thread, it was a quick and fairly random suggestion and nobody has put in their support. Have fun, Darren
Re: Can't enter extra whitespace when editing.
Darren == Darren Freeman [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Darren On Tue, 2007-06-26 at 10:00 +0200, Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote: I happen to have LyX 1.3.3 installed on this machine and it does not exhibit the behavior you describe. Actually, I think the current one was already built-in since the first releases of LyX. As someone who has been around since 1995, I do not remember anything different. Darren Okay you win :) If I'm not talking about past behaviour then Darren I'm proposing a new feature :) And I know your vote is -1.. Yes :) But since I know that somewhere deep inside you do not believe me, I downloaded lyx-0.7p4-d3 from October 1995 (the oldest we have), and found inside it a document titled something like Darren Dude, that's way more effort than anybody should have put in. Darren But thanks ;) My point was more to set the record right. And since I was sure I would find something there, it was a funny thing to do. Remember that at that time, the whole unpacked source was 700k (now: 55M), and there was only one documentation file :) Darren You couldn't use the old version of LyX to export it to LaTeX? Darren Or didn't you have an old enough system with xforms to compile Darren against :) I was too lazy to try to compile it (I would need an ancient version of xforms, the latest would not be OK). insert empty paragraphs. No matter how many spaces are typed between words, only a single space between the words will appear. Blank spaces at the beginning of a paragraph are completely taboo. Indentation of Darren Actually I don't see the conflict between my suggestion and Darren this part of the documentation. For once you move the cursor Darren away, it will be cleaned up and you'll be left with a single Darren space. What is the point of showing spaces that will not stick? The would be even more confusing. Darren By the way, nobody has yet answered my concerns about the Darren dangling space at the end of a paragraph. That has been Darren allowed for as long as I can remember but it adds nothing (to Darren my knowledge). Sure it's allowed so you can continue typing, Darren but once you cursor away from the paragraph it's just Darren redundant. I agree that spaces in front or at the end of paragraphs should be removed by DEPM. JMarc
Re: Can't enter extra whitespace when editing.
On Tue, 2007-06-26 at 12:47 +0200, Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote: would find something there, it was a funny thing to do. Remember that at that time, the whole unpacked source was 700k (now: 55M), and there was only one documentation file :) Also only one developer, minimum inline documentation, no i18n, no icons, right? :) That would account for all the remaining bytes ;) Darren By the way, nobody has yet answered my concerns about the Darren dangling space at the end of a paragraph. That has been Darren allowed for as long as I can remember but it adds nothing (to Darren my knowledge). Sure it's allowed so you can continue typing, Darren but once you cursor away from the paragraph it's just Darren redundant. I agree that spaces in front or at the end of paragraphs should be removed by DEPM. Wouldn't that be a trivial thing to fix? Have fun, Darren
Re: Can't enter extra whitespace when editing.
Darren == Darren Freeman [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Darren On Tue, 2007-06-26 at 12:47 +0200, Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote: would find something there, it was a funny thing to do. Remember that at that time, the whole unpacked source was 700k (now: 55M), and there was only one documentation file :) Darren Also only one developer, minimum inline documentation, no Darren i18n, no icons, right? :) That would account for all the Darren remaining bytes ;) The second developer (Lars) shows up in the next version 0.7p4-d4. There were 16 icons (some of them with B/W versions). You can see the beast here: http://www.lyx.org/~jamatos/archaeology/lyx-time.html You will remark that everything is in a strange order. This is because ancient xforms versions did not have the same sign conventions on the y axis. I agree that spaces in front or at the end of paragraphs should be removed by DEPM. Darren Wouldn't that be a trivial thing to fix? Sure. But not urgent probably. JMarc
Re: Can't enter extra whitespace when editing.
Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote: Darren == Darren Freeman [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: And you can't erase past the beginning of the document, Darren Now you're being silly. You can't do that in ordinary text Darren editors either. But LyX is no ordinary text editor. Darren I'm not talking about a functional change, I'm talking about a Darren user interface change back to past behaviour that was probably Darren once considered correct. This was _not_ past behaviour. JMarc Was not the original behavior, to always pop a gentle nudge reminder in the bar at the bottom of the window indicating something along the lines two spaces don't make sense here.? The current revs [at least since 1.4.3] only do it once. I liked the old behavior of reminding me that I had escaped an Office product, after a few hours of lyx editing I would get used to it again and enjoy the lack of need to do hand formating. $0.02 -- Todd Denniston Crane Division, Naval Surface Warfare Center (NSWC Crane) Harnessing the Power of Technology for the Warfighter
Re: Can't enter extra whitespace when editing.
Todd == Todd Denniston [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Todd Was not the original behavior, to always pop a gentle nudge Todd reminder in the bar at the bottom of the window indicating Todd something along the lines two spaces don't make sense here.? Todd The current revs [at least since 1.4.3] only do it once. I liked Todd the old behavior of reminding me that I had escaped an Office Todd product, after a few hours of lyx editing I would get used to it Todd again and enjoy the lack of need to do hand formating. The change was done in version 1.2.0, in 2001... JMarc
Re: Can't enter extra whitespace when editing.
Darren Freeman wrote: On Tue, 2007-06-26 at 12:47 +0200, Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote: would find something there, it was a funny thing to do. Remember that at that time, the whole unpacked source was 700k (now: 55M), and there was only one documentation file :) Also only one developer, minimum inline documentation, no i18n, no icons, right? :) That would account for all the remaining bytes ;) Who's the one that weights so many bytes? ;-) Darren By the way, nobody has yet answered my concerns about the Darren dangling space at the end of a paragraph. That has been Darren allowed for as long as I can remember but it adds nothing (to Darren my knowledge). Sure it's allowed so you can continue typing, Darren but once you cursor away from the paragraph it's just Darren redundant. I agree that spaces in front or at the end of paragraphs should be removed by DEPM. Wouldn't that be a trivial thing to fix? Please don't fix it... DEPM is already painful as it is. Think about cutpasting some word. (when you go to cut it, the space gets removed, so then you insert and you have to go back and find the position to re-add it etc...) Spaces at the front are a different matter though, but I thought they cannot be normally entered in the first place. A/
Re: Can't enter extra whitespace when editing.
On Tue, 2007-06-26 at 07:43 +0200, Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote: > Darren> I'm not talking about a functional change, I'm talking about a > Darren> user interface change back to past behaviour that was probably > Darren> once considered "correct". > > This was _not_ past behaviour. An excerpt of a message where another person remembers what I think I remember. Maybe it was just a bug. Anyway I thought it was better. Forwarded Message From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Can't enter extra whitespace when editing. Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 13:54:52 +0200 On Wed, 20 Jun 2007, Darren Freeman wrote: > On Wed, 2007-06-20 at 10:01 +0200, Enrico Forestieri wrote: >> I just checked that LyX 1.1.6fix4 and 1.3.7 didn't allow that. >> So, I would say that it has always been like that. > I take your word for it, perhaps my memory is faulty. I remember that behaviour as well, but probably from LyX 1.3.3 or so...
Re: Can't enter extra whitespace when editing.
> "Darren" == Darren Freeman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: Darren> On Tue, 2007-06-26 at 07:43 +0200, Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote: Darren> I'm not talking about a functional change, I'm talking about a Darren> user interface change back to past behaviour that was probably Darren> once considered "correct". >> This was _not_ past behaviour. Darren> An excerpt of a message where another person remembers what I Darren> think I remember. Maybe it was just a bug. Anyway I thought it Darren> was better. I happen to have LyX 1.3.3 installed on this machine and it does not exhibit the behavior you describe. Actually, I think the current one was already built-in since the first releases of LyX. As someone who has been around since 1995, I do not remember anything different. Of course the above stands for the initial claim once upon a time, I could type extra whitespace between words and then it would magically go away when I left that region of text. Now, extra space keypresses have no effect and I feel like I'm in a straight-jacket. I can still insert a space *before* an existing space, because I might be about to type a word between them, just not after one. Anybody else get that feeling or prefer the old behaviour? [* later... *] But since I know that somewhere deep inside you do not believe me, I downloaded lyx-0.7p4-d3 from October 1995 (the oldest we have), and found inside it a document titled something like Word processing with LyX High Level Word Processor based on TeX/LaTeX (LyX 0.71, Documentation 0.7p1) Copyright (C) 1995 Matthias Ettrich You can find this document here for your enjoyment: http://www-rocq.inria.fr/~lasgoutt/lyx/Documentation.lyx Of course, Jose' being the lazy guy we have learned to love (and hate), lyx2lyx is not able to read this file and yours truly had to apply the patent-pending lyx2t::bh technique (aka "LyX to Text by hand"). The document starts with an introduction and some installation instruction, and the only other section describe what is in the author's mind the great idea behind LyX: Differences from usual word processors What sets LyX apart from other word processors is that it is a graphical front-end to a general mark-up typesetting system with extensive macro capabilities, not an extended typewriter. Usual word processors are in fact highly developed typewriters, but still compatible with their predecessors. And as far I can see they are still used as if they were simple typewriters. This is done for two reasons: The average user is not a specialist in typography (and shouldn't be!) and the programs don't help him at all with this (This shouldn't be, either!). But these programs are totally happy to be used as a typewriter, that everybody could work with, but which leads to terrible results. For example: * To emphasize words, they are underlined. The underline is simply a horizontal line on the base of the typing line. Letters like "g", "j", "p", and "q" are cut by this line, and partially obscured. What is necessary on a typewriter becomes with modern typesetting software a very poor custom, which can be replaced by several text styles and sizes. * In order to set headings or titles two blank lines above and one below the line are added. On a typewriter this is the best approximation to correct typesetting, but it is only an approximation. In particular small headings like subsections are separated too far from the rest of the text. Furthermore, through this practice it's possible to create awkward page breaks. A page break There shouldn't occur between a heading and the following text. But how can the computer avoid this, if it doesn't know that is is a heading? Or, if it knows it, but an empty line follows? And what should be be done with all these empty lines at the top of a page? Ignored? What if the user just wants to paste a picture in there later? To summarize this issue: Creating headings and vertical spaces manually using blank lines is an obsolete technique with grave disadvantages. But it is common usage (I found this even in books with titles like "Professional writing with for ***"). On very short documents (about two or three pages) this is not usually a problem, but it can be in a longer one. Correcting these errors will require considerable manual labor. Finally, every change in the document will effect the page breaks of all following pages, which will result in even more work to correct the new errors that crop up. And why do all these stupid pagebreaks manually, if you have a computer? * In order to indent a line blanks are used. In this way you can certainly build up a table, list or a simple description, but it would be very primitive. Changes in one line require
Re: Can't enter extra whitespace when editing.
Darren Freeman wrote: On Mon, 2007-06-25 at 13:06 +0200, Helge Hafting wrote: Darren Freeman wrote: It feels more natural to have all my key-presses honoured on the screen. When certain keys are sometimes disabled, it just doesn't feel right. There are lots of limitations like that. You can't use the right-arrow to move the cursor past the end of the document either - even if you might want to put some text in the lower-right corner. And you can't erase past the beginning of the document, Now you're being silly. You can't do that in ordinary text editors either. There are certainly editors that lets you move the cursor way out to the right even if there is nothing there. If you then type something there, a long string of spaces is inserted automatically so you get your huge indentation. This style of editor was popular among programmers, as this is a reasonable operation on source code where indentation matters. I know people who got upset by "stream oriented" editors that didn't let them do this. I'm not talking about a functional change, I'm talking about a user interface change back to past behaviour that was probably once considered "correct". LyX never had this for normal text. You can press several spaces in a row using the style LyX-Code, and that's it. This because LyX recognises this special need for printed computer code. Helge Hafting
Re: Can't enter extra whitespace when editing.
On Tue, 2007-06-26 at 10:00 +0200, Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote: > I happen to have LyX 1.3.3 installed on this machine and it does not > exhibit the behavior you describe. Actually, I think the current one > was already built-in since the first releases of LyX. As someone who > has been around since 1995, I do not remember anything different. Okay you win :) If I'm not talking about past behaviour then I'm proposing a new "feature" :) And I know your vote is -1.. > Of course the above stands for the initial claim > > once upon a time, I could type extra whitespace between words and then > it would magically go away when I left that region of text. > > Now, extra space keypresses have no effect and I feel like I'm in a > straight-jacket. I can still insert a space *before* an existing > space, because I might be about to type a word between them, just not > after one. Anybody else get that feeling or prefer the old behaviour? > > [* later... *] > > But since I know that somewhere deep inside you do not believe me, I > downloaded lyx-0.7p4-d3 from October 1995 (the oldest we have), and > found inside it a document titled something like Dude, that's way more effort than anybody should have put in. But thanks ;) > Of course, Jose' being the lazy guy we have learned to love (and > hate), lyx2lyx is not able to read this file and yours truly had to > apply the patent-pending lyx2t::bh technique (aka "LyX to Text by > hand"). The document starts with an introduction and some installation You couldn't use the old version of LyX to export it to LaTeX? Or didn't you have an old enough system with xforms to compile against :) > instruction, and the only other section describe what is in the > author's mind the great idea behind LyX: > insert empty paragraphs. No matter how many spaces are typed between > words, only a single space between the words will appear. Blank spaces > at the beginning of a paragraph are completely taboo. Indentation of Actually I don't see the conflict between my suggestion and this part of the documentation. For once you move the cursor away, it will be cleaned up and you'll be left with a single space. > Now I hope you are convinced that LyX has never been supposed to work > as you claim. You may like it or not like it, but I think that in > Matthias Ettrich mind, it was _the_ feature that sets LyX apart from > other word processors, the one he was proud of. Sure that was the plan. I'm proposing a fairly minor UI tweak that doesn't affect the overall result. By the way, nobody has yet answered my concerns about the dangling space at the end of a paragraph. That has been allowed for as long as I can remember but it adds nothing (to my knowledge). Sure it's allowed so you can continue typing, but once you cursor away from the paragraph it's just redundant. Anyway I don't have much interest in this thread, it was a quick and fairly random suggestion and nobody has put in their support. Have fun, Darren
Re: Can't enter extra whitespace when editing.
> "Darren" == Darren Freeman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: Darren> On Tue, 2007-06-26 at 10:00 +0200, Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote: >> I happen to have LyX 1.3.3 installed on this machine and it does >> not exhibit the behavior you describe. Actually, I think the >> current one was already built-in since the first releases of LyX. >> As someone who has been around since 1995, I do not remember >> anything different. Darren> Okay you win :) If I'm not talking about past behaviour then Darren> I'm proposing a new "feature" :) And I know your vote is -1.. Yes :) >> But since I know that somewhere deep inside you do not believe me, >> I downloaded lyx-0.7p4-d3 from October 1995 (the oldest we have), >> and found inside it a document titled something like Darren> Dude, that's way more effort than anybody should have put in. Darren> But thanks ;) My point was more to set the record right. And since I was sure I would find something there, it was a funny thing to do. Remember that at that time, the whole unpacked source was 700k (now: 55M), and there was only one documentation file :) Darren> You couldn't use the old version of LyX to export it to LaTeX? Darren> Or didn't you have an old enough system with xforms to compile Darren> against :) I was too lazy to try to compile it (I would need an ancient version of xforms, the latest would not be OK). >> insert empty paragraphs. No matter how many spaces are typed >> between words, only a single space between the words will appear. >> Blank spaces at the beginning of a paragraph are completely taboo. >> Indentation of Darren> Actually I don't see the conflict between my suggestion and Darren> this part of the documentation. For once you move the cursor Darren> away, it will be cleaned up and you'll be left with a single Darren> space. What is the point of showing spaces that will not stick? The would be even more confusing. Darren> By the way, nobody has yet answered my concerns about the Darren> dangling space at the end of a paragraph. That has been Darren> allowed for as long as I can remember but it adds nothing (to Darren> my knowledge). Sure it's allowed so you can continue typing, Darren> but once you cursor away from the paragraph it's just Darren> redundant. I agree that spaces in front or at the end of paragraphs should be removed by DEPM. JMarc
Re: Can't enter extra whitespace when editing.
On Tue, 2007-06-26 at 12:47 +0200, Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote: > would find something there, it was a funny thing to do. Remember that > at that time, the whole unpacked source was 700k (now: 55M), and there > was only one documentation file :) Also only one developer, minimum inline documentation, no i18n, no icons, right? :) That would account for all the remaining bytes ;) > Darren> By the way, nobody has yet answered my concerns about the > Darren> dangling space at the end of a paragraph. That has been > Darren> allowed for as long as I can remember but it adds nothing (to > Darren> my knowledge). Sure it's allowed so you can continue typing, > Darren> but once you cursor away from the paragraph it's just > Darren> redundant. > > I agree that spaces in front or at the end of paragraphs should be > removed by DEPM. Wouldn't that be a trivial thing to "fix"? Have fun, Darren
Re: Can't enter extra whitespace when editing.
> "Darren" == Darren Freeman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: Darren> On Tue, 2007-06-26 at 12:47 +0200, Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote: >> would find something there, it was a funny thing to do. Remember >> that at that time, the whole unpacked source was 700k (now: 55M), >> and there was only one documentation file :) Darren> Also only one developer, minimum inline documentation, no Darren> i18n, no icons, right? :) That would account for all the Darren> remaining bytes ;) The second developer (Lars) shows up in the next version 0.7p4-d4. There were 16 icons (some of them with B/W versions). You can see the beast here: http://www.lyx.org/~jamatos/archaeology/lyx-time.html You will remark that everything is in a strange order. This is because ancient xforms versions did not have the same sign conventions on the y axis. >> I agree that spaces in front or at the end of paragraphs should be >> removed by DEPM. Darren> Wouldn't that be a trivial thing to "fix"? Sure. But not urgent probably. JMarc
Re: Can't enter extra whitespace when editing.
Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote: "Darren" == Darren Freeman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: And you can't erase past the beginning of the document, Darren> Now you're being silly. You can't do that in ordinary text Darren> editors either. But LyX is no ordinary text editor. Darren> I'm not talking about a functional change, I'm talking about a Darren> user interface change back to past behaviour that was probably Darren> once considered "correct". This was _not_ past behaviour. JMarc Was not the original behavior, to always pop a gentle nudge reminder in the bar at the bottom of the window indicating something along the lines "two spaces don't make sense here."? The current revs [at least since 1.4.3] only do it once. I liked the old behavior of reminding me that I had escaped an "Office" product, after a few hours of lyx editing I would get used to it again and enjoy the lack of need to do hand formating. $0.02 -- Todd Denniston Crane Division, Naval Surface Warfare Center (NSWC Crane) Harnessing the Power of Technology for the Warfighter
Re: Can't enter extra whitespace when editing.
> "Todd" == Todd Denniston <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: Todd> Was not the original behavior, to always pop a gentle nudge Todd> reminder in the bar at the bottom of the window indicating Todd> something along the lines "two spaces don't make sense here."? Todd> The current revs [at least since 1.4.3] only do it once. I liked Todd> the old behavior of reminding me that I had escaped an "Office" Todd> product, after a few hours of lyx editing I would get used to it Todd> again and enjoy the lack of need to do hand formating. The change was done in version 1.2.0, in 2001... JMarc
Re: Can't enter extra whitespace when editing.
Darren Freeman wrote: > On Tue, 2007-06-26 at 12:47 +0200, Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote: >> would find something there, it was a funny thing to do. Remember that >> at that time, the whole unpacked source was 700k (now: 55M), and there >> was only one documentation file :) > > Also only one developer, minimum inline documentation, no i18n, no > icons, right? :) That would account for all the remaining bytes ;) Who's the one that weights so many bytes? ;-) >> Darren> By the way, nobody has yet answered my concerns about the >> Darren> dangling space at the end of a paragraph. That has been >> Darren> allowed for as long as I can remember but it adds nothing (to >> Darren> my knowledge). Sure it's allowed so you can continue typing, >> Darren> but once you cursor away from the paragraph it's just >> Darren> redundant. >> >> I agree that spaces in front or at the end of paragraphs should be >> removed by DEPM. > > Wouldn't that be a trivial thing to "fix"? Please don't "fix" it... DEPM is already painful as it is. Think about cut some word. (when you go to cut it, the space gets removed, so then you insert and you have to go back and find the position to re-add it etc...) Spaces at the front are a different matter though, but I thought they cannot be normally entered in the first place. A/
Re: Can't enter extra whitespace when editing.
Darren Freeman wrote: On Fri, 2007-06-22 at 11:28 -0400, Paul A. Rubin wrote: Darren Freeman wrote: once upon a time, I could type extra whitespace between words and then it would magically go away when I left that region of text. obviously functional, but what is the appeal of inserting a space after a space knowing LyX will clean it up later? Just curious. It feels more natural to have all my key-presses honoured on the screen. When certain keys are sometimes disabled, it just doesn't feel right. There are lots of limitations like that. You can't use the right-arrow to move the cursor past the end of the document either - even if you might want to put some text in the lower-right corner. And you can't erase past the beginning of the document, you can't use super/subscript twice in a row (there must be text inbetween) and so on. Helge Hafting
Re: Can't enter extra whitespace when editing.
On Mon, 2007-06-25 at 13:06 +0200, Helge Hafting wrote: Darren Freeman wrote: It feels more natural to have all my key-presses honoured on the screen. When certain keys are sometimes disabled, it just doesn't feel right. There are lots of limitations like that. You can't use the right-arrow to move the cursor past the end of the document either - even if you might want to put some text in the lower-right corner. And you can't erase past the beginning of the document, Now you're being silly. You can't do that in ordinary text editors either. I'm not talking about a functional change, I'm talking about a user interface change back to past behaviour that was probably once considered correct. Have fun, Darren
Re: Can't enter extra whitespace when editing.
Darren == Darren Freeman [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: And you can't erase past the beginning of the document, Darren Now you're being silly. You can't do that in ordinary text Darren editors either. But LyX is no ordinary text editor. Darren I'm not talking about a functional change, I'm talking about a Darren user interface change back to past behaviour that was probably Darren once considered correct. This was _not_ past behaviour. JMarc
Re: Can't enter extra whitespace when editing.
Darren Freeman wrote: On Fri, 2007-06-22 at 11:28 -0400, Paul A. Rubin wrote: Darren Freeman wrote: once upon a time, I could type extra whitespace between words and then it would magically go away when I left that region of text. obviously functional, but what is the appeal of inserting a space after a space knowing LyX will clean it up later? Just curious. It feels more natural to have all my key-presses honoured on the screen. When certain keys are sometimes disabled, it just doesn't feel right. There are lots of limitations like that. You can't use the right-arrow to move the cursor past the end of the document either - even if you might want to put some text in the lower-right corner. And you can't erase past the beginning of the document, you can't use super/subscript twice in a row (there must be text inbetween) and so on. Helge Hafting
Re: Can't enter extra whitespace when editing.
On Mon, 2007-06-25 at 13:06 +0200, Helge Hafting wrote: Darren Freeman wrote: It feels more natural to have all my key-presses honoured on the screen. When certain keys are sometimes disabled, it just doesn't feel right. There are lots of limitations like that. You can't use the right-arrow to move the cursor past the end of the document either - even if you might want to put some text in the lower-right corner. And you can't erase past the beginning of the document, Now you're being silly. You can't do that in ordinary text editors either. I'm not talking about a functional change, I'm talking about a user interface change back to past behaviour that was probably once considered correct. Have fun, Darren
Re: Can't enter extra whitespace when editing.
Darren == Darren Freeman [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: And you can't erase past the beginning of the document, Darren Now you're being silly. You can't do that in ordinary text Darren editors either. But LyX is no ordinary text editor. Darren I'm not talking about a functional change, I'm talking about a Darren user interface change back to past behaviour that was probably Darren once considered correct. This was _not_ past behaviour. JMarc
Re: Can't enter extra whitespace when editing.
Darren Freeman wrote: On Fri, 2007-06-22 at 11:28 -0400, Paul A. Rubin wrote: Darren Freeman wrote: once upon a time, I could type extra whitespace between words and then it would magically go away when I left that region of text. obviously functional, but what is the appeal of inserting a space after a space knowing LyX will clean it up later? Just curious. It feels more natural to have all my key-presses honoured on the screen. When certain keys are sometimes disabled, it just doesn't feel right. There are lots of limitations like that. You can't use the right-arrow to move the cursor past the end of the document either - even if you might want to put some text in the lower-right corner. And you can't erase past the beginning of the document, you can't use super/subscript twice in a row (there must be text inbetween) and so on. Helge Hafting
Re: Can't enter extra whitespace when editing.
On Mon, 2007-06-25 at 13:06 +0200, Helge Hafting wrote: > Darren Freeman wrote: > > It feels more natural to have all my key-presses honoured on the screen. > > When certain keys are sometimes disabled, it just doesn't feel right. > > > There are lots of limitations like that. > > You can't use the right-arrow to move the cursor past the > end of the document either - even if you might want > to put some text in the lower-right corner. > And you can't erase past the beginning of the document, Now you're being silly. You can't do that in ordinary text editors either. I'm not talking about a functional change, I'm talking about a user interface change back to past behaviour that was probably once considered "correct". Have fun, Darren
Re: Can't enter extra whitespace when editing.
> "Darren" == Darren Freeman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: >> And you can't erase past the beginning of the document, Darren> Now you're being silly. You can't do that in ordinary text Darren> editors either. But LyX is no ordinary text editor. Darren> I'm not talking about a functional change, I'm talking about a Darren> user interface change back to past behaviour that was probably Darren> once considered "correct". This was _not_ past behaviour. JMarc
Re: Can't enter extra whitespace when editing.
On Fri, 2007-06-22 at 11:28 -0400, Paul A. Rubin wrote: Darren Freeman wrote: once upon a time, I could type extra whitespace between words and then it would magically go away when I left that region of text. obviously functional, but what is the appeal of inserting a space after a space knowing LyX will clean it up later? Just curious. It feels more natural to have all my key-presses honoured on the screen. When certain keys are sometimes disabled, it just doesn't feel right. Have fun, Darren
Re: Can't enter extra whitespace when editing.
On Fri, 2007-06-22 at 11:28 -0400, Paul A. Rubin wrote: Darren Freeman wrote: once upon a time, I could type extra whitespace between words and then it would magically go away when I left that region of text. obviously functional, but what is the appeal of inserting a space after a space knowing LyX will clean it up later? Just curious. It feels more natural to have all my key-presses honoured on the screen. When certain keys are sometimes disabled, it just doesn't feel right. Have fun, Darren
Re: Can't enter extra whitespace when editing.
On Fri, 2007-06-22 at 11:28 -0400, Paul A. Rubin wrote: > Darren Freeman wrote: > > once upon a time, I could type extra whitespace between words and then > > it would magically go away when I left that region of text. > obviously functional, but what is the appeal of inserting a space after > a space knowing LyX will clean it up later? Just curious. It feels more natural to have all my key-presses honoured on the screen. When certain keys are sometimes disabled, it just doesn't feel right. Have fun, Darren
Re: Can't enter extra whitespace when editing.
Darren Freeman wrote: once upon a time, I could type extra whitespace between words and then it would magically go away when I left that region of text. Now, extra space keypresses have no effect and I feel like I'm in a straight-jacket. I can still insert a space *before* an existing space, because I might be about to type a word between them, just not after one. Anybody else get that feeling or prefer the old behaviour? What is it about the previous behavior (which I don't recall, but that proves nothing) that you find desirable? The part about allowing a space before a space (so that you can insert a word between them) is obviously functional, but what is the appeal of inserting a space after a space knowing LyX will clean it up later? Just curious. /Paul
Re: Can't enter extra whitespace when editing.
Darren Freeman wrote: once upon a time, I could type extra whitespace between words and then it would magically go away when I left that region of text. Now, extra space keypresses have no effect and I feel like I'm in a straight-jacket. I can still insert a space *before* an existing space, because I might be about to type a word between them, just not after one. Anybody else get that feeling or prefer the old behaviour? What is it about the previous behavior (which I don't recall, but that proves nothing) that you find desirable? The part about allowing a space before a space (so that you can insert a word between them) is obviously functional, but what is the appeal of inserting a space after a space knowing LyX will clean it up later? Just curious. /Paul
Re: Can't enter extra whitespace when editing.
Darren Freeman wrote: once upon a time, I could type extra whitespace between words and then it would magically go away when I left that region of text. Now, extra space keypresses have no effect and I feel like I'm in a straight-jacket. I can still insert a space *before* an existing space, because I might be about to type a word between them, just not after one. Anybody else get that feeling or prefer the old behaviour? What is it about the previous behavior (which I don't recall, but that proves nothing) that you find desirable? The part about allowing a space before a space (so that you can insert a word between them) is obviously functional, but what is the appeal of inserting a space after a space knowing LyX will clean it up later? Just curious. /Paul
Re: Can't enter extra whitespace when editing.
In a recent message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Typhoon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote. [...] Fair enough, but I wouldn't like to see this pass without putting in my strongest possible support for the existing policy of forbidding extra white spaces. Allowing extra white space, knowing that it will be wiped out by LaTeX, is at best useless, at worst misleading. [...] In fact you can insert white space that won't be ignored by LaTeX by inserting the sort of space you get by pressing the Alt-255 key combination. This can sometimes be useful for fine formatting of tables, for example. Regards, Nick. -- Nick Hopton and Anne Hopton Caversham, Reading, England [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Can't enter extra whitespace when editing.
Nick Hopton wrote: In fact you can insert white space that won't be ignored by LaTeX by inserting the sort of space you get by pressing the Alt-255 key combination. This can sometimes be useful for fine formatting of tables, for example. For this, you can use normal space (C-M-space) or protected space (C-space). Jürgen
Re: Can't enter extra whitespace when editing.
Nick Hopton wrote: [...] In fact you can insert white space that won't be ignored by LaTeX by inserting the sort of space you get by pressing the Alt-255 key combination. This can sometimes be useful for fine formatting of tables, for example. Perhaps that works on some machines (windows?), mine just adds the text 255 just as if alt wasn't in use. For fine adjustments that works in all cases, consider ctrl+space (protected space) or ctrl+shift+space (protected thin space). The latter is useful in other cases where you want a small separator too, such as phone numbers or as a thousands separator. Helge Hafting
Re: Can't enter extra whitespace when editing.
On Thu, 21 Jun 2007 08:31:28 +0100 Nick Hopton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a recent message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Typhoon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote. [...] Fair enough, but I wouldn't like to see this pass without putting in my strongest possible support for the existing policy of forbidding extra white spaces. Allowing extra white space, knowing that it will be wiped out by LaTeX, is at best useless, at worst misleading. [...] In fact you can insert white space that won't be ignored by LaTeX by inserting the sort of space you get by pressing the Alt-255 key combination. This can sometimes be useful for fine formatting of tables, for example. Of course - and you can get protected white spaces in any number of other ways by using other Latex constructs. But that is neither useless nor misleading. In my view, allowing normal spaces is both. Cheers, Alan Regards, Nick. -- Nick Hopton and Anne Hopton Caversham, Reading, England [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Can't enter extra whitespace when editing.
Typhoon wrote: On Wed, 20 Jun 2007 19:47:20 +1000 Darren Freeman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: (thread continues on lyx-devel to save confusion!) Fair enough, but I wouldn't like to see this pass without putting in my strongest possible support for the existing policy of forbidding extra white spaces. Allowing extra white space, knowing that it will be wiped out by LaTeX, is at best useless, at worst misleading. Furthermore, this behaviour of Lyx is one of the things that I point out to beginners to distinguish Lyx from their old word processor. It is a simple, yet powerful, way to show them the advantages of leaving formatting to the latex engine. Cheers, Alan I second this. My only complaint was that earlier versions nagged me in the status line whenever I hit the space bar twice in a row (which is a combination of old habits and bad typing, not a lack of understanding of why consecutive spaces won't work). The current version only nags the first time, which I think is ideal. /Paul
Re: Can't enter extra whitespace when editing.
On Thu, 2007-06-21 at 08:27 +1000, Typhoon wrote: On Wed, 20 Jun 2007 19:47:20 +1000 Darren Freeman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: (thread continues on lyx-devel to save confusion!) Fair enough, but I wouldn't like to see this pass without putting in my strongest possible support for the existing policy of forbidding extra white spaces. Allowing extra white space, knowing that it will be wiped out by LaTeX, is at best useless, at worst misleading. Clearly you haven't read my original post because it was to the lyx-devel list and the thread crossed over by mistake. Please let me set the record straight before I find myself hearing about this for the next month. 88888 Hi all, once upon a time, I could type extra whitespace between words and then it would magically go away when I left that region of text. Now, extra space keypresses have no effect and I feel like I'm in a straight-jacket. I can still insert a space *before* an existing space, because I might be about to type a word between them, just not after one. Anybody else get that feeling or prefer the old behaviour? Also I point out that LyX still allows a permanent dangling space at the end of a paragraph which is even less consistent with the current ... behaviour. Have fun, Darren
Re: Can't enter extra whitespace when editing.
In a recent message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Typhoon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote. [...] Fair enough, but I wouldn't like to see this pass without putting in my strongest possible support for the existing policy of forbidding extra white spaces. Allowing extra white space, knowing that it will be wiped out by LaTeX, is at best useless, at worst misleading. [...] In fact you can insert white space that won't be ignored by LaTeX by inserting the sort of space you get by pressing the Alt-255 key combination. This can sometimes be useful for fine formatting of tables, for example. Regards, Nick. -- Nick Hopton and Anne Hopton Caversham, Reading, England [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Can't enter extra whitespace when editing.
Nick Hopton wrote: In fact you can insert white space that won't be ignored by LaTeX by inserting the sort of space you get by pressing the Alt-255 key combination. This can sometimes be useful for fine formatting of tables, for example. For this, you can use normal space (C-M-space) or protected space (C-space). Jürgen
Re: Can't enter extra whitespace when editing.
Nick Hopton wrote: [...] In fact you can insert white space that won't be ignored by LaTeX by inserting the sort of space you get by pressing the Alt-255 key combination. This can sometimes be useful for fine formatting of tables, for example. Perhaps that works on some machines (windows?), mine just adds the text 255 just as if alt wasn't in use. For fine adjustments that works in all cases, consider ctrl+space (protected space) or ctrl+shift+space (protected thin space). The latter is useful in other cases where you want a small separator too, such as phone numbers or as a thousands separator. Helge Hafting
Re: Can't enter extra whitespace when editing.
On Thu, 21 Jun 2007 08:31:28 +0100 Nick Hopton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a recent message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Typhoon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote. [...] Fair enough, but I wouldn't like to see this pass without putting in my strongest possible support for the existing policy of forbidding extra white spaces. Allowing extra white space, knowing that it will be wiped out by LaTeX, is at best useless, at worst misleading. [...] In fact you can insert white space that won't be ignored by LaTeX by inserting the sort of space you get by pressing the Alt-255 key combination. This can sometimes be useful for fine formatting of tables, for example. Of course - and you can get protected white spaces in any number of other ways by using other Latex constructs. But that is neither useless nor misleading. In my view, allowing normal spaces is both. Cheers, Alan Regards, Nick. -- Nick Hopton and Anne Hopton Caversham, Reading, England [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Can't enter extra whitespace when editing.
Typhoon wrote: On Wed, 20 Jun 2007 19:47:20 +1000 Darren Freeman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: (thread continues on lyx-devel to save confusion!) Fair enough, but I wouldn't like to see this pass without putting in my strongest possible support for the existing policy of forbidding extra white spaces. Allowing extra white space, knowing that it will be wiped out by LaTeX, is at best useless, at worst misleading. Furthermore, this behaviour of Lyx is one of the things that I point out to beginners to distinguish Lyx from their old word processor. It is a simple, yet powerful, way to show them the advantages of leaving formatting to the latex engine. Cheers, Alan I second this. My only complaint was that earlier versions nagged me in the status line whenever I hit the space bar twice in a row (which is a combination of old habits and bad typing, not a lack of understanding of why consecutive spaces won't work). The current version only nags the first time, which I think is ideal. /Paul
Re: Can't enter extra whitespace when editing.
On Thu, 2007-06-21 at 08:27 +1000, Typhoon wrote: On Wed, 20 Jun 2007 19:47:20 +1000 Darren Freeman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: (thread continues on lyx-devel to save confusion!) Fair enough, but I wouldn't like to see this pass without putting in my strongest possible support for the existing policy of forbidding extra white spaces. Allowing extra white space, knowing that it will be wiped out by LaTeX, is at best useless, at worst misleading. Clearly you haven't read my original post because it was to the lyx-devel list and the thread crossed over by mistake. Please let me set the record straight before I find myself hearing about this for the next month. 88888 Hi all, once upon a time, I could type extra whitespace between words and then it would magically go away when I left that region of text. Now, extra space keypresses have no effect and I feel like I'm in a straight-jacket. I can still insert a space *before* an existing space, because I might be about to type a word between them, just not after one. Anybody else get that feeling or prefer the old behaviour? Also I point out that LyX still allows a permanent dangling space at the end of a paragraph which is even less consistent with the current ... behaviour. Have fun, Darren
Re: Can't enter extra whitespace when editing.
In a recent message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Typhoon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote. [...] Fair enough, but I wouldn't like to see this pass without putting in my strongest possible support for the existing policy of forbidding extra white spaces. Allowing extra white space, knowing that it will be wiped out by LaTeX, is at best useless, at worst misleading. [...] In fact you can insert white space that won't be ignored by LaTeX by inserting the sort of space you get by pressing the Alt-255 key combination. This can sometimes be useful for fine formatting of tables, for example. Regards, Nick. -- Nick Hopton and Anne Hopton Caversham, Reading, England <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Re: Can't enter extra whitespace when editing.
Nick Hopton wrote: > In fact you can insert white space that won't be ignored by LaTeX by > inserting the sort of space you get by pressing the Alt-255 key > combination. This can sometimes be useful for fine formatting of tables, > for example. For this, you can use "normal space" (C-M-) or protected space (C-). Jürgen
Re: Can't enter extra whitespace when editing.
Nick Hopton wrote: [...] In fact you can insert white space that won't be ignored by LaTeX by inserting the sort of space you get by pressing the Alt-255 key combination. This can sometimes be useful for fine formatting of tables, for example. Perhaps that works on some machines (windows?), mine just adds the text "255" just as if "alt" wasn't in use. For fine adjustments that works in all cases, consider ctrl+space (protected space) or ctrl+shift+space (protected thin space). The latter is useful in other cases where you want a small separator too, such as phone numbers or as a thousands separator. Helge Hafting
Re: Can't enter extra whitespace when editing.
On Thu, 21 Jun 2007 08:31:28 +0100 Nick Hopton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > In a recent message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, > Typhoon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote. > > [...] > >Fair enough, but I wouldn't like to see this pass without putting in > >my strongest possible support for the existing policy of forbidding > >extra white spaces. > > >Allowing extra white space, knowing that it will be wiped out by > >LaTeX, is at best useless, at worst misleading. > [...] > > In fact you can insert white space that won't be ignored by LaTeX by > inserting the sort of space you get by pressing the Alt-255 key > combination. This can sometimes be useful for fine formatting of > tables, for example. Of course - and you can get protected white spaces in any number of other ways by using other Latex constructs. But that is neither useless nor misleading. In my view, allowing "normal" spaces is both. Cheers, Alan > > Regards, > Nick. > > -- > Nick Hopton and Anne Hopton > Caversham, Reading, England > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >
Re: Can't enter extra whitespace when editing.
Typhoon wrote: On Wed, 20 Jun 2007 19:47:20 +1000 Darren Freeman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: (thread continues on lyx-devel to save confusion!) Fair enough, but I wouldn't like to see this pass without putting in my strongest possible support for the existing policy of forbidding extra white spaces. Allowing extra white space, knowing that it will be wiped out by LaTeX, is at best useless, at worst misleading. Furthermore, this behaviour of Lyx is one of the things that I point out to beginners to distinguish Lyx from their old word processor. It is a simple, yet powerful, way to show them the advantages of leaving formatting to the latex engine. Cheers, Alan I second this. My only complaint was that earlier versions nagged me in the status line whenever I hit the space bar twice in a row (which is a combination of old habits and bad typing, not a lack of understanding of why consecutive spaces won't work). The current version only nags the first time, which I think is ideal. /Paul
Re: Can't enter extra whitespace when editing.
On Thu, 2007-06-21 at 08:27 +1000, Typhoon wrote: > On Wed, 20 Jun 2007 19:47:20 +1000 > Darren Freeman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > (thread continues on lyx-devel to save confusion!) > > Fair enough, but I wouldn't like to see this pass without putting in my > strongest possible support for the existing policy of forbidding extra > white spaces. > > Allowing extra white space, knowing that it will be wiped out by LaTeX, > is at best useless, at worst misleading. Clearly you haven't read my original post because it was to the lyx-devel list and the thread crossed over by mistake. Please let me set the record straight before I find myself hearing about this for the next month. 8<8<8<8<8< Hi all, once upon a time, I could type extra whitespace between words and then it would magically go away when I left that region of text. Now, extra space keypresses have no effect and I feel like I'm in a straight-jacket. I can still insert a space *before* an existing space, because I might be about to type a word between them, just not after one. Anybody else get that feeling or prefer the old behaviour? Also I point out that LyX still allows a permanent dangling space at the end of a paragraph which is even less consistent with the current ... behaviour. Have fun, Darren
Re: Can't enter extra whitespace when editing.
(thread continues on lyx-devel to save confusion!) On Tue, 2007-06-19 at 17:51 +0200, Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote: Darren == Darren Freeman [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Darren My point was that in the past you could enter them and they Darren would be removed when you moved away, but now you can't enter Darren them at all. I vote for the older behaviour which feels more Darren natural. Are you sure? What version was that? I doubt that it has changed recently. JMarc
Re: Can't enter extra whitespace when editing.
On Wed, 20 Jun 2007 19:47:20 +1000 Darren Freeman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: (thread continues on lyx-devel to save confusion!) Fair enough, but I wouldn't like to see this pass without putting in my strongest possible support for the existing policy of forbidding extra white spaces. Allowing extra white space, knowing that it will be wiped out by LaTeX, is at best useless, at worst misleading. Furthermore, this behaviour of Lyx is one of the things that I point out to beginners to distinguish Lyx from their old word processor. It is a simple, yet powerful, way to show them the advantages of leaving formatting to the latex engine. Cheers, Alan On Tue, 2007-06-19 at 17:51 +0200, Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote: Darren == Darren Freeman [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Darren My point was that in the past you could enter them and they Darren would be removed when you moved away, but now you can't Darren enter them at all. I vote for the older behaviour which Darren feels more natural. Are you sure? What version was that? I doubt that it has changed recently. JMarc
Re: Can't enter extra whitespace when editing.
(thread continues on lyx-devel to save confusion!) On Tue, 2007-06-19 at 17:51 +0200, Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote: Darren == Darren Freeman [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Darren My point was that in the past you could enter them and they Darren would be removed when you moved away, but now you can't enter Darren them at all. I vote for the older behaviour which feels more Darren natural. Are you sure? What version was that? I doubt that it has changed recently. JMarc
Re: Can't enter extra whitespace when editing.
On Wed, 20 Jun 2007 19:47:20 +1000 Darren Freeman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: (thread continues on lyx-devel to save confusion!) Fair enough, but I wouldn't like to see this pass without putting in my strongest possible support for the existing policy of forbidding extra white spaces. Allowing extra white space, knowing that it will be wiped out by LaTeX, is at best useless, at worst misleading. Furthermore, this behaviour of Lyx is one of the things that I point out to beginners to distinguish Lyx from their old word processor. It is a simple, yet powerful, way to show them the advantages of leaving formatting to the latex engine. Cheers, Alan On Tue, 2007-06-19 at 17:51 +0200, Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote: Darren == Darren Freeman [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Darren My point was that in the past you could enter them and they Darren would be removed when you moved away, but now you can't Darren enter them at all. I vote for the older behaviour which Darren feels more natural. Are you sure? What version was that? I doubt that it has changed recently. JMarc
Re: Can't enter extra whitespace when editing.
(thread continues on lyx-devel to save confusion!) On Tue, 2007-06-19 at 17:51 +0200, Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote: > > "Darren" == Darren Freeman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > Darren> My point was that in the past you could enter them and they > Darren> would be removed when you moved away, but now you can't enter > Darren> them at all. I vote for the older behaviour which feels more > Darren> natural. > > Are you sure? What version was that? I doubt that it has changed > recently. > > JMarc
Re: Can't enter extra whitespace when editing.
On Wed, 20 Jun 2007 19:47:20 +1000 Darren Freeman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > (thread continues on lyx-devel to save confusion!) Fair enough, but I wouldn't like to see this pass without putting in my strongest possible support for the existing policy of forbidding extra white spaces. Allowing extra white space, knowing that it will be wiped out by LaTeX, is at best useless, at worst misleading. Furthermore, this behaviour of Lyx is one of the things that I point out to beginners to distinguish Lyx from their old word processor. It is a simple, yet powerful, way to show them the advantages of leaving formatting to the latex engine. Cheers, Alan > > On Tue, 2007-06-19 at 17:51 +0200, Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote: > > > "Darren" == Darren Freeman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > > > Darren> My point was that in the past you could enter them and they > > Darren> would be removed when you moved away, but now you can't > > Darren> enter them at all. I vote for the older behaviour which > > Darren> feels more natural. > > > > Are you sure? What version was that? I doubt that it has changed > > recently. > > > > JMarc > >
Re: Can't enter extra whitespace when editing.
Darren Freeman wrote: On Mon, 2007-06-18 at 12:40 +0200, Hellmut Weber wrote: Hi Darren, don't you think that calling a lyx behaviour 'gestapo behaviour' is inappropriate? I don't think I spent any more than three seconds on it and hadn't considered it to be anything other than a little colourful. I was referring to the heavy-handed policing which LyX is now applying to extra white-space and I think I made my point. Removing those spaces from the screen is on purpose. LyX could let them through, but they will be stripped away when printing anyway, so better let you see what you are going to get anyway. Helge Hafting
Re: Can't enter extra whitespace when editing.
On Tue, 2007-06-19 at 15:58 +0200, Helge Hafting wrote: Darren Freeman wrote: considered it to be anything other than a little colourful. I was referring to the heavy-handed policing which LyX is now applying to extra white-space and I think I made my point. Removing those spaces from the screen is on purpose. LyX could let them through, but they will be stripped away when printing anyway, so better let you see what you are going to get anyway. My point was that in the past you could enter them and they would be removed when you moved away, but now you can't enter them at all. I vote for the older behaviour which feels more natural. Have fun, Darren
Re: Can't enter extra whitespace when editing.
Darren == Darren Freeman [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Darren My point was that in the past you could enter them and they Darren would be removed when you moved away, but now you can't enter Darren them at all. I vote for the older behaviour which feels more Darren natural. Are you sure? What version was that? I doubt that it has changed recently. JMarc
Re: Can't enter extra whitespace when editing.
Darren Freeman wrote: On Mon, 2007-06-18 at 12:40 +0200, Hellmut Weber wrote: Hi Darren, don't you think that calling a lyx behaviour 'gestapo behaviour' is inappropriate? I don't think I spent any more than three seconds on it and hadn't considered it to be anything other than a little colourful. I was referring to the heavy-handed policing which LyX is now applying to extra white-space and I think I made my point. Removing those spaces from the screen is on purpose. LyX could let them through, but they will be stripped away when printing anyway, so better let you see what you are going to get anyway. Helge Hafting
Re: Can't enter extra whitespace when editing.
On Tue, 2007-06-19 at 15:58 +0200, Helge Hafting wrote: Darren Freeman wrote: considered it to be anything other than a little colourful. I was referring to the heavy-handed policing which LyX is now applying to extra white-space and I think I made my point. Removing those spaces from the screen is on purpose. LyX could let them through, but they will be stripped away when printing anyway, so better let you see what you are going to get anyway. My point was that in the past you could enter them and they would be removed when you moved away, but now you can't enter them at all. I vote for the older behaviour which feels more natural. Have fun, Darren
Re: Can't enter extra whitespace when editing.
Darren == Darren Freeman [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Darren My point was that in the past you could enter them and they Darren would be removed when you moved away, but now you can't enter Darren them at all. I vote for the older behaviour which feels more Darren natural. Are you sure? What version was that? I doubt that it has changed recently. JMarc
Re: Can't enter extra whitespace when editing.
Darren Freeman wrote: On Mon, 2007-06-18 at 12:40 +0200, Hellmut Weber wrote: Hi Darren, don't you think that calling a lyx behaviour 'gestapo behaviour' is inappropriate? I don't think I spent any more than three seconds on it and hadn't considered it to be anything other than a little colourful. I was referring to the heavy-handed policing which LyX is now applying to extra white-space and I think I made my point. Removing those spaces from the screen is on purpose. LyX could let them through, but they will be stripped away when printing anyway, so better let you see what you are going to get anyway. Helge Hafting
Re: Can't enter extra whitespace when editing.
On Tue, 2007-06-19 at 15:58 +0200, Helge Hafting wrote: > Darren Freeman wrote: > > considered it to be anything other than a little colourful. I was > > referring to the heavy-handed policing which LyX is now applying to > > extra white-space and I think I made my point. > > > Removing those spaces from the screen is on purpose. > LyX could let them through, but they will be stripped away > when printing anyway, so better let you see what you are > going to get anyway. My point was that in the past you could enter them and they would be removed when you moved away, but now you can't enter them at all. I vote for the older behaviour which feels more natural. Have fun, Darren
Re: Can't enter extra whitespace when editing.
> "Darren" == Darren Freeman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: Darren> My point was that in the past you could enter them and they Darren> would be removed when you moved away, but now you can't enter Darren> them at all. I vote for the older behaviour which feels more Darren> natural. Are you sure? What version was that? I doubt that it has changed recently. JMarc
Re: Can't enter extra whitespace when editing.
Hi Darren, don't you think that calling a lyx behaviour 'gestapo behaviour' is inappropriate? I'll send my mail certainly open to the list, I was just to quick and didn't change the address for my replay. So I send this mail to the list as cc Regards Hellmut Darren Freeman schrieb: Hellmut, I was very surprised by your email. I was discussing a technical change in LyX from past behaviour, as well as an ongoing issue that I am trying to get changed, and at no point was I insulting anyone. I think you will find that you were the only one who had this interpretation. If you would like to send your message openly to the entire list, you will get a similar reaction. Please spend some more time getting used to the emails on this list before you jump on someone. Have fun, Darren On Mon, 2007-06-18 at 10:33 +0200, Hellmut Weber wrote: Hi Darren, having been obliged to work quite a lot with word I'm very happy that LyX just prevents to enter more than one space between two words. And the additionel space you can introduce before an existing one disappears when go jump to some where else. Also I point out that LyX still allows a permanent dangling space at the end of a paragraph which is even less consistent with the current gestapo behaviour. And PLEASE abstain from flames of this kind !!! I consider this as utmost inappropriate !!! Regards Hellmut -- Dr. Hellmut Weber [EMAIL PROTECTED] Degenfeldstraße 2 tel +49-89-3081172 D-80803 München-Schwabing mobil +49-172-8450321 please: No DOCs, no PPTs. why: tinyurl.com/cbgq
Re: Can't enter extra whitespace when editing.
On Mon, 2007-06-18 at 12:40 +0200, Hellmut Weber wrote: Hi Darren, don't you think that calling a lyx behaviour 'gestapo behaviour' is inappropriate? I don't think I spent any more than three seconds on it and hadn't considered it to be anything other than a little colourful. I was referring to the heavy-handed policing which LyX is now applying to extra white-space and I think I made my point. Yes, if somebody reading that had suffered at the hands of the gestapo, then I can see that they might be upset... so I am sorry and will be more careful. I live in a place and time where the concept exists only in books and on TV and it just didn't seem important. If you or any of the recipients are or know Jews who suffered during WWII then I am especially sorry. I'll send my mail certainly open to the list, I was just to quick and didn't change the address for my replay. So I send this mail to the list as cc You sent it to the wrong list by the way. Now a second, much larger group of people is potentially offended. Also I didn't invite you to send my private reply to you to any list, that is just bad manners. Please don't do that again! To me this is the bigger offence, and it gives me the impression that it is you who wanted a flame-war. Have fun, Darren
Re: Can't enter extra whitespace when editing.
On Monday 18 June 2007 08:28, Darren Freeman wrote: On Mon, 2007-06-18 at 12:40 +0200, Hellmut Weber wrote: Hi Darren, don't you think that calling a lyx behaviour 'gestapo behaviour' is inappropriate? I don't think I spent any more than three seconds on it and hadn't considered it to be anything other than a little colourful. I was referring to the heavy-handed policing which LyX is now applying to extra white-space and I think I made my point. Has a recent LyX version eliminated the author's ability to use Ctrl+Spacebar to insert multiple nonbreaking spaces? My 1.4.2 allows it. SteveT
Re: Can't enter extra whitespace when editing.
Hi Darren, thanks for your message ;-) I realised only now that your are living very far from Europe. OTOH as you can see from my signature I'm german, born 1943 and my parents have lived through all of the war (actually two of these, teh first one as little children). In many European countries being compared with the gestapo would be considered very offensive, even for people much younger than me. So thanks for your last reply. Cheers Hellmut Darren Freeman schrieb: On Mon, 2007-06-18 at 12:40 +0200, Hellmut Weber wrote: Hi Darren, don't you think that calling a lyx behaviour 'gestapo behaviour' is inappropriate? I don't think I spent any more than three seconds on it and hadn't considered it to be anything other than a little colourful. I was referring to the heavy-handed policing which LyX is now applying to extra white-space and I think I made my point. Yes, if somebody reading that had suffered at the hands of the gestapo, then I can see that they might be upset... so I am sorry and will be more careful. I live in a place and time where the concept exists only in books and on TV and it just didn't seem important. If you or any of the recipients are or know Jews who suffered during WWII then I am especially sorry. I'll send my mail certainly open to the list, I was just to quick and didn't change the address for my replay. So I send this mail to the list as cc You sent it to the wrong list by the way. Now a second, much larger group of people is potentially offended. Also I didn't invite you to send my private reply to you to any list, that is just bad manners. Please don't do that again! To me this is the bigger offence, and it gives me the impression that it is you who wanted a flame-war. Have fun, Darren -- Dr. Hellmut Weber [EMAIL PROTECTED] Degenfeldstraße 2 tel +49-89-3081172 D-80803 München-Schwabing mobil +49-172-8450321 please: No DOCs, no PPTs. why: tinyurl.com/cbgq
Re: Can't enter extra whitespace when editing.
Hi, LyX-svn as of 2007-06-17 still permits it. Greetings Hellmut Has a recent LyX version eliminated the author's ability to use Ctrl+Spacebar to insert multiple nonbreaking spaces? My 1.4.2 allows it. -- Dr. Hellmut Weber [EMAIL PROTECTED] Degenfeldstraße 2 tel +49-89-3081172 D-80803 München-Schwabing mobil +49-172-8450321 please: No DOCs, no PPTs. why: tinyurl.com/cbgq
Re: Can't enter extra whitespace when editing.
Hi Darren, don't you think that calling a lyx behaviour 'gestapo behaviour' is inappropriate? I'll send my mail certainly open to the list, I was just to quick and didn't change the address for my replay. So I send this mail to the list as cc Regards Hellmut Darren Freeman schrieb: Hellmut, I was very surprised by your email. I was discussing a technical change in LyX from past behaviour, as well as an ongoing issue that I am trying to get changed, and at no point was I insulting anyone. I think you will find that you were the only one who had this interpretation. If you would like to send your message openly to the entire list, you will get a similar reaction. Please spend some more time getting used to the emails on this list before you jump on someone. Have fun, Darren On Mon, 2007-06-18 at 10:33 +0200, Hellmut Weber wrote: Hi Darren, having been obliged to work quite a lot with word I'm very happy that LyX just prevents to enter more than one space between two words. And the additionel space you can introduce before an existing one disappears when go jump to some where else. Also I point out that LyX still allows a permanent dangling space at the end of a paragraph which is even less consistent with the current gestapo behaviour. And PLEASE abstain from flames of this kind !!! I consider this as utmost inappropriate !!! Regards Hellmut -- Dr. Hellmut Weber [EMAIL PROTECTED] Degenfeldstraße 2 tel +49-89-3081172 D-80803 München-Schwabing mobil +49-172-8450321 please: No DOCs, no PPTs. why: tinyurl.com/cbgq
Re: Can't enter extra whitespace when editing.
On Mon, 2007-06-18 at 12:40 +0200, Hellmut Weber wrote: Hi Darren, don't you think that calling a lyx behaviour 'gestapo behaviour' is inappropriate? I don't think I spent any more than three seconds on it and hadn't considered it to be anything other than a little colourful. I was referring to the heavy-handed policing which LyX is now applying to extra white-space and I think I made my point. Yes, if somebody reading that had suffered at the hands of the gestapo, then I can see that they might be upset... so I am sorry and will be more careful. I live in a place and time where the concept exists only in books and on TV and it just didn't seem important. If you or any of the recipients are or know Jews who suffered during WWII then I am especially sorry. I'll send my mail certainly open to the list, I was just to quick and didn't change the address for my replay. So I send this mail to the list as cc You sent it to the wrong list by the way. Now a second, much larger group of people is potentially offended. Also I didn't invite you to send my private reply to you to any list, that is just bad manners. Please don't do that again! To me this is the bigger offence, and it gives me the impression that it is you who wanted a flame-war. Have fun, Darren
Re: Can't enter extra whitespace when editing.
On Monday 18 June 2007 08:28, Darren Freeman wrote: On Mon, 2007-06-18 at 12:40 +0200, Hellmut Weber wrote: Hi Darren, don't you think that calling a lyx behaviour 'gestapo behaviour' is inappropriate? I don't think I spent any more than three seconds on it and hadn't considered it to be anything other than a little colourful. I was referring to the heavy-handed policing which LyX is now applying to extra white-space and I think I made my point. Has a recent LyX version eliminated the author's ability to use Ctrl+Spacebar to insert multiple nonbreaking spaces? My 1.4.2 allows it. SteveT
Re: Can't enter extra whitespace when editing.
Hi Darren, thanks for your message ;-) I realised only now that your are living very far from Europe. OTOH as you can see from my signature I'm german, born 1943 and my parents have lived through all of the war (actually two of these, teh first one as little children). In many European countries being compared with the gestapo would be considered very offensive, even for people much younger than me. So thanks for your last reply. Cheers Hellmut Darren Freeman schrieb: On Mon, 2007-06-18 at 12:40 +0200, Hellmut Weber wrote: Hi Darren, don't you think that calling a lyx behaviour 'gestapo behaviour' is inappropriate? I don't think I spent any more than three seconds on it and hadn't considered it to be anything other than a little colourful. I was referring to the heavy-handed policing which LyX is now applying to extra white-space and I think I made my point. Yes, if somebody reading that had suffered at the hands of the gestapo, then I can see that they might be upset... so I am sorry and will be more careful. I live in a place and time where the concept exists only in books and on TV and it just didn't seem important. If you or any of the recipients are or know Jews who suffered during WWII then I am especially sorry. I'll send my mail certainly open to the list, I was just to quick and didn't change the address for my replay. So I send this mail to the list as cc You sent it to the wrong list by the way. Now a second, much larger group of people is potentially offended. Also I didn't invite you to send my private reply to you to any list, that is just bad manners. Please don't do that again! To me this is the bigger offence, and it gives me the impression that it is you who wanted a flame-war. Have fun, Darren -- Dr. Hellmut Weber [EMAIL PROTECTED] Degenfeldstraße 2 tel +49-89-3081172 D-80803 München-Schwabing mobil +49-172-8450321 please: No DOCs, no PPTs. why: tinyurl.com/cbgq
Re: Can't enter extra whitespace when editing.
Hi, LyX-svn as of 2007-06-17 still permits it. Greetings Hellmut Has a recent LyX version eliminated the author's ability to use Ctrl+Spacebar to insert multiple nonbreaking spaces? My 1.4.2 allows it. -- Dr. Hellmut Weber [EMAIL PROTECTED] Degenfeldstraße 2 tel +49-89-3081172 D-80803 München-Schwabing mobil +49-172-8450321 please: No DOCs, no PPTs. why: tinyurl.com/cbgq
Re: Can't enter extra whitespace when editing.
Hi Darren, don't you think that calling a lyx behaviour 'gestapo behaviour' is inappropriate? I'll send my mail certainly open to the list, I was just to quick and didn't change the address for my replay. So I send this mail to the list as cc Regards Hellmut Darren Freeman schrieb: Hellmut, I was very surprised by your email. I was discussing a technical change in LyX from past behaviour, as well as an ongoing issue that I am trying to get changed, and at no point was I insulting anyone. I think you will find that you were the only one who had this interpretation. If you would like to send your message openly to the entire list, you will get a similar reaction. Please spend some more time getting used to the emails on this list before you jump on someone. Have fun, Darren On Mon, 2007-06-18 at 10:33 +0200, Hellmut Weber wrote: Hi Darren, having been obliged to work quite a lot with word I'm very happy that LyX just prevents to enter more than one space between two words. And the additionel space you can introduce before an existing one disappears when go jump to some where else. Also I point out that LyX still allows a permanent dangling space at the end of a paragraph which is even less consistent with the current gestapo behaviour. And PLEASE abstain from flames of this kind !!! I consider this as utmost inappropriate !!! Regards Hellmut -- Dr. Hellmut Weber [EMAIL PROTECTED] Degenfeldstraße 2 tel +49-89-3081172 D-80803 München-Schwabing mobil +49-172-8450321 please: No DOCs, no PPTs. why: tinyurl.com/cbgq
Re: Can't enter extra whitespace when editing.
On Mon, 2007-06-18 at 12:40 +0200, Hellmut Weber wrote: > Hi Darren, don't you think that calling a lyx behaviour 'gestapo > behaviour' is inappropriate? I don't think I spent any more than three seconds on it and hadn't considered it to be anything other than a little colourful. I was referring to the heavy-handed policing which LyX is now applying to extra white-space and I think I made my point. Yes, if somebody reading that had suffered at the hands of the gestapo, then I can see that they might be upset... so I am sorry and will be more careful. I live in a place and time where the concept exists only in books and on TV and it just didn't seem important. If you or any of the recipients are or know Jews who suffered during WWII then I am especially sorry. > I'll send my mail certainly open to the list, I was just to quick and > didn't change the address for my replay. > > So I send this mail to the list as cc You sent it to the wrong list by the way. Now a second, much larger group of people is potentially offended. Also I didn't invite you to send my private reply to you to any list, that is just bad manners. Please don't do that again! To me this is the bigger offence, and it gives me the impression that it is you who wanted a flame-war. Have fun, Darren
Re: Can't enter extra whitespace when editing.
On Monday 18 June 2007 08:28, Darren Freeman wrote: > On Mon, 2007-06-18 at 12:40 +0200, Hellmut Weber wrote: > > Hi Darren, don't you think that calling a lyx behaviour 'gestapo > > behaviour' is inappropriate? > > I don't think I spent any more than three seconds on it and hadn't > considered it to be anything other than a little colourful. I was > referring to the heavy-handed policing which LyX is now applying to > extra white-space and I think I made my point. Has a recent LyX version eliminated the author's ability to use Ctrl+Spacebar to insert multiple nonbreaking spaces? My 1.4.2 allows it. SteveT
Re: Can't enter extra whitespace when editing.
Hi Darren, thanks for your message ;-) I realised only now that your are living very far from Europe. OTOH as you can see from my signature I'm german, born 1943 and my parents have lived through all of the war (actually two of these, teh first one as little children). In many European countries being compared with the gestapo would be considered very offensive, even for people much younger than me. So thanks for your last reply. Cheers Hellmut Darren Freeman schrieb: On Mon, 2007-06-18 at 12:40 +0200, Hellmut Weber wrote: Hi Darren, don't you think that calling a lyx behaviour 'gestapo behaviour' is inappropriate? I don't think I spent any more than three seconds on it and hadn't considered it to be anything other than a little colourful. I was referring to the heavy-handed policing which LyX is now applying to extra white-space and I think I made my point. Yes, if somebody reading that had suffered at the hands of the gestapo, then I can see that they might be upset... so I am sorry and will be more careful. I live in a place and time where the concept exists only in books and on TV and it just didn't seem important. If you or any of the recipients are or know Jews who suffered during WWII then I am especially sorry. I'll send my mail certainly open to the list, I was just to quick and didn't change the address for my replay. So I send this mail to the list as cc You sent it to the wrong list by the way. Now a second, much larger group of people is potentially offended. Also I didn't invite you to send my private reply to you to any list, that is just bad manners. Please don't do that again! To me this is the bigger offence, and it gives me the impression that it is you who wanted a flame-war. Have fun, Darren -- Dr. Hellmut Weber [EMAIL PROTECTED] Degenfeldstraße 2 tel +49-89-3081172 D-80803 München-Schwabing mobil +49-172-8450321 please: No DOCs, no PPTs. why: tinyurl.com/cbgq
Re: Can't enter extra whitespace when editing.
Hi, LyX-svn as of 2007-06-17 still permits it. Greetings Hellmut Has a recent LyX version eliminated the author's ability to use Ctrl+Spacebar to insert multiple nonbreaking spaces? My 1.4.2 allows it. -- Dr. Hellmut Weber [EMAIL PROTECTED] Degenfeldstraße 2 tel +49-89-3081172 D-80803 München-Schwabing mobil +49-172-8450321 please: No DOCs, no PPTs. why: tinyurl.com/cbgq
