Re: epub output in version 2.2?

[Richard Heck]

On 07/09/2016 07:36 AM, Guillaume Munch wrote:
> Le 07/07/2016 19:25, Steve Litt a écrit :
>>
>> Since about 2008 LyX native format has become more and more "XML like"
>> without being either valid or well formed XML. 

This is news to me. The basic structure of LyX files has not changed in
the time I've
been working on LyX, and that goes back to before 2008.

>> If they just made LyX
>> into valid and well formed XML, creating our own converter, with Python
>> and Python's XML parser, will become a one person project.

As Gullaume says, the problem is to get someone with enough time and
desire to
do it.

>> There is a lot of wishes in your message. But I must warn, if you
>> ever happen to find this one person for the task, that their time is
>> better used within the project than outside of it. You can have a look
>> at the example of eLyXer, which has decided to go on its own. It still
>> has not caught up with the 2.2 format. 
>
> I think eLyXer was a very special case. My memory is that Alex
> Fernandez very much wanted his eLyXer incorporated into LyX, and
> instead the powers that be postponed him over and over again until they
> wrote their own, which substantially duplicated eLyXer's features and
> its problems. 

There was a long discussion about how to proceed with this, and the
"powers that
be" decided that Alex's approach was the wrong one. Its maintenance
costs alone were
staggering, which is why it hasn't kept up with developments.

The truth is that LyX will have stellar XML/HTML/whatever output when,
as I said,
someone has enough time and desire to make it do so. I wrote the HTML
export code
as proof of concept.

Richard

PS I'll shortly commit a fix for the  issue.

Re: epub output in version 2.2?

[Steve Litt]

On Sat, 9 Jul 2016 12:36:36 +0100
Guillaume Munch  wrote:

> Hi Steve,
> 
> There is a lot of wishes in your message. But I must warn, if you
> ever happen to find this one person for the task, that their time is
> better used within the project than outside of it. You can have a look
> at the example of eLyXer, which has decided to go on its own. It still
> has not caught up with the 2.2 format. 

I think eLyXer was a very special case. My memory is that Alex
Fernandez very much wanted his eLyXer incorporated into LyX, and
instead the powers that be postponed him over and over again until they
wrote their own, which substantially duplicated eLyXer's features and
its problems. I looked at Alex' code with the idea of writing a more
semantic export. His code was good, but it was 10K lines and I didn't
have the time.

SteveT

Steve Litt 
July 2016 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques
 of the Successful Technologist
http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques

Re: epub output in version 2.2?

[Steve Litt]

On Sat, 9 Jul 2016 12:36:36 +0100
Guillaume Munch  wrote:

> Le 07/07/2016 19:25, Steve Litt a écrit :
> > On Wed, 6 Jul 2016 16:57:23 -0400
> > Richard Heck  wrote:
> >  
> >> On 07/06/2016 04:45 PM, Robert Alvarez wrote:  
> >>> Epub output  questions appear here periodically.
> >>>
> >>> An answer in one thread said that it might appear in version 2.2
> >>>
> >>> I looked in the release notes but could not find it.
> >>>
> >>> Is epub output in 2.2?  
> >>
> >> No, it is not. It is possible we will see in in the 2.2.x series.  
> >
> > Robert,
> >
> > Be careful what you wish for. Even if/when LyX finally has ePub
> > export, the question is "what quality ePub?" Will it be like the
> > HTML and Xhtml exports, having all sorts of extraneous CSS styles
> > to do silly stuff, deprecated stuff like , and
> > the like? Just because something outputs something they call ePub,
> > and it's decipherable by Calibre's ebook-viewer,  doesn't make it
> > the kind of ePub you can convert and sell on Amazon, or the kind of
> > ePub that won't make your readers crazy with anger.
> >
> > Since about 2008 LyX native format has become more and more "XML
> > like" without being either valid or well formed XML. If they just
> > made LyX into valid and well formed XML, creating our own
> > converter, with Python and Python's XML parser, will become a one
> > person project. And such a converter will by its very nature be
> > semantic, it won't do stupid stuff like  having paragraphs all have
> > either "indented" or "unindented" classes. That's a job for CSS,
> > not for different types of paragraphs. Converting LyX native format
> > to a valid and well formed XML would make export to ***ALL***
> > formats, those known and those yet to be discovered, easy. And the
> > converters would exist completely outside of LyX and therefore
> > would be small and modular. 
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Steve,
> 
> There is a lot of wishes in your message. But I must warn, if you
> ever happen to find this one person for the task, that their time is
> better used within the project than outside of it. You can have a look
> at the example of eLyXer, which has decided to go on its own. It still
> has not caught up with the 2.2 format. Also, implementing things twice
> is costly, and for what benefit? I do not see what edge a language
> like Python has for this problem.
> 
> The problem rather seems to be finding this one person. So, any
> volunteer?
> 
> Guillaume

:-)

What gave you the idea I was considering doing something outside the
LyX project?

Here's the problem Guillaume. Until LyX' native format is true XML,
it's a \HUGE undertaking to make any kind of semantic export. The LyX
of 2002 was parseable by a mere mortal using Python. A true XML LyX
format would be easily parsable by a mere mortal using Python. But as
the native format stands now, caught in a netherworld between LaTeX and
XML, it takes a person with a huge brain to parse it. Or it takes
someone who can use existing LyX C++ code and use it in a way that
upgrades won't bust his parser.

Free software is created by people scratching their itch (such as
outputting to ePub). Interestingly, not all popular projects are
started by outstanding programmers. Many are started by run-of-the-mill
programmers who just need something done. That type of programmer is
much more likely to go outside the project than dive into the LyX C++.

If the project wants people to work from within, I think they need to
quickly make LyX much more parseable, probably by finally becoming well
formed and valid XML. This would open a huge world of write once,
deploy everywhere possibilities, and bring home the wandering sheep.

SteveT

Steve Litt 
July 2016 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques
 of the Successful Technologist
http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques

Re: epub output in version 2.2?

[Guillaume Munch]

Le 07/07/2016 19:25, Steve Litt a écrit :

On Wed, 6 Jul 2016 16:57:23 -0400
Richard Heck  wrote:


On 07/06/2016 04:45 PM, Robert Alvarez wrote:

Epub output  questions appear here periodically.

An answer in one thread said that it might appear in version 2.2

I looked in the release notes but could not find it.

Is epub output in 2.2?


No, it is not. It is possible we will see in in the 2.2.x series.


Robert,

Be careful what you wish for. Even if/when LyX finally has ePub
export, the question is "what quality ePub?" Will it be like the HTML
and Xhtml exports, having all sorts of extraneous CSS styles to do
silly stuff, deprecated stuff like , and the like?
Just because something outputs something they call ePub, and it's
decipherable by Calibre's ebook-viewer,  doesn't make it the kind of
ePub you can convert and sell on Amazon, or the kind of ePub that won't
make your readers crazy with anger.

Since about 2008 LyX native format has become more and more "XML like"
without being either valid or well formed XML. If they just made LyX
into valid and well formed XML, creating our own converter, with Python
and Python's XML parser, will become a one person project. And such a
converter will by its very nature be semantic, it won't do stupid stuff
like  having paragraphs all have either "indented" or "unindented"
classes. That's a job for CSS, not for different types of paragraphs.
Converting LyX native format to a valid and well formed XML would make
export to ***ALL*** formats, those known and those yet to be discovered,
easy. And the converters would exist completely outside of LyX and
therefore would be small and modular.





Hi Steve,

There is a lot of wishes in your message. But I must warn, if you
ever happen to find this one person for the task, that their time is
better used within the project than outside of it. You can have a look
at the example of eLyXer, which has decided to go on its own. It still
has not caught up with the 2.2 format. Also, implementing things twice
is costly, and for what benefit? I do not see what edge a language like
Python has for this problem.

The problem rather seems to be finding this one person. So, any volunteer?

Guillaume

Re: epub output in version 2.2?

[Steve Litt]

On Wed, 6 Jul 2016 16:57:23 -0400
Richard Heck  wrote:

> On 07/06/2016 04:45 PM, Robert Alvarez wrote:
> > Epub output  questions appear here periodically.
> >
> > An answer in one thread said that it might appear in version 2.2
> >
> > I looked in the release notes but could not find it.
> >
> > Is epub output in 2.2?  
> 
> No, it is not. It is possible we will see in in the 2.2.x series.

Robert,

Be careful what you wish for. Even if/when LyX finally has ePub
export, the question is "what quality ePub?" Will it be like the HTML
and Xhtml exports, having all sorts of extraneous CSS styles to do
silly stuff, deprecated stuff like , and the like?
Just because something outputs something they call ePub, and it's
decipherable by Calibre's ebook-viewer,  doesn't make it the kind of
ePub you can convert and sell on Amazon, or the kind of ePub that won't
make your readers crazy with anger.

Since about 2008 LyX native format has become more and more "XML like"
without being either valid or well formed XML. If they just made LyX
into valid and well formed XML, creating our own converter, with Python
and Python's XML parser, will become a one person project. And such a
converter will by its very nature be semantic, it won't do stupid stuff
like  having paragraphs all have either "indented" or "unindented"
classes. That's a job for CSS, not for different types of paragraphs.
Converting LyX native format to a valid and well formed XML would make
export to ***ALL*** formats, those known and those yet to be discovered,
easy. And the converters would exist completely outside of LyX and
therefore would be small and modular.

SteveT

Steve Litt 
July 2016 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques
 of the Successful Technologist
http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques

Re: epub output in version 2.2?

[Richard Heck]

On 07/06/2016 04:45 PM, Robert Alvarez wrote:

Epub output  questions appear here periodically.

An answer in one thread said that it might appear in version 2.2

I looked in the release notes but could not find it.

Is epub output in 2.2?


No, it is not. It is possible we will see in in the 2.2.x series.

Richard

epub output in version 2.2?

[Robert Alvarez]

Epub output  questions appear here periodically.

An answer in one thread said that it might appear in version 2.2

I looked in the release notes but could not find it.

Is epub output in 2.2?

Bob