Re: Indexing a book

[Rich Shepard]

On Sat, 24 Jun 2023, Jürgen Spitzmüller wrote:


With biblatex:
indexing=cite
in the bibliography options.


Jürgen,

Thank you. I'll read to learn more about biblatex.

Regards,

Rich


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Re: Indexing a book

[Jürgen Spitzmüller]

Am Freitag, dem 23.06.2023 um 15:50 -0700 schrieb Rich Shepard:
> I would like to add all cited authors to the index.
> Pointers on how to do this (perhaps manually at each document
> citation?) will be very helpful.

With biblatex:

indexing=cite

in the bibliography options.

-- 
Jürgen
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Indexing a book

[Rich Shepard]

Hi group,

I've read the Indexing chapter in the Users Guide, a couple of StackExchange
threads plus general guides to indexing. One LyX-specific issue I've not
seen addressed is how to add bibliography authors to the index.

The book has citations entered by JabRef. Some authors have entries as
single authors, others as both single and part of multiple authors. Since
my book is technical I would like to add all cited authors to the index.
Pointers on how to do this (perhaps manually at each document citation?)
will be very helpful.

Rich

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Re: indexing a book

[Peter Harkins]

On Fri, Nov 28, 2003 at 07:54:12AM -0800, Rich Shepard wrote:
>   Wouldn't it be useful to have a forum for scientific and technical writers
> (authors of other types of work would have equivalent fora) where the art
> and techniques of writing -- using LyX and LaTeX, of course -- could be
> shared?

There is an forum for technical writers called techwr-l. It's primarly an
e-mail list, but can also be read from/posted to from the web (and it
exports to Usenet). It has a large membership and very useful discussion.

It deals with all kinds of issues that technical writers face, from indexing
to terminology to translation. There's frequently discussion of the tools
technical writers on Windows use like Word, RoboHelp, and Framemaker (I've
certainly learned some scary bugs they have). There's also a few of us Linux
users on the list piping up occasionally, and there's been a bit of
discussion lately on replacing Office with OpenOffice.org. Though there's
not much discussion on Linux tools (beacuse they tend to have their own
dedicated lists, like this one), we're not at all unwelcome.

There are two caveats about the list. First, it's fairly high-traffic; I get
between one and five dozen e-mails from it every day, and this is an issue
for some poor mail clients. Second, because it's posted to the web and
usenet, spammers and Windows viruses will get whatever address you post to
the list with. I'm currently getting about ten Windows viruses a day (at
154k each, ack) and a a similar number of daily spams to the address I've
only used for the list.

You can find more information, the archives, and sign up at:
http://raycomm.com/techwhirl/techwhirllist/index.html


pgp0.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: indexing a book

[Ed Sawicki]

On Fri, 2003-11-28 at 14:14, Rich Shepard wrote:
> On Thu, 27 Nov 2003, Ed Sawicki wrote:
> 
> > I love LyX but I dislike the way an index is created.
> 
>   I hope that it is not considered too off-topic to ask here about the art
> of indexing. This morning I bought a copy of Larry Bonura's "The Art of
> Indexing". The most important insight I have gained so far is the difference
> in purpose of an index in a scientific book versus one in a technical
> manual. The index of a scientific book is used as a reference to specific
> information by (usually) someone who has already read the book. The index of
> a technical manual (or technical book) is used to answer "how to" questions
> by someone who may, or may not, have read the book. Bonura's book focuses on
> the latter need.
> 
>   So, can folks here recommend resources for me to read on how to decide on
> topics, organization and so on for a scientific book? There are many books
> out there and I cannot go through all of them trying to find the one that
> will teach me what I need to learn.
> 
>   I can also understand now why there's a dearth of indexing software. If
> the idea of the index is to extract ideas and concepts from the text -- from
> the reader's need to know -- how could software do this effectively?

I don't think it can. That's why there's a strong human/manual
component of the process, where the author or indexer (the human)
of the book needs to make the important decisions. The software
can only do the grunt work. However, the grunt work relives the
author or the indexer of a significant burden.

I've published electronic versions of my books where the index
is a search engine. This shifts the burden of indexing to the
reader and allows the reader to decide on his own search criteria.

Note that some search engine software allows the author or
indexer to assign priorities to words and phrases to put more
likely sought after sections of the book closer to the top of
the resulting list. Some software allows the addition of
metadata, thus allowing the author or indexer to enhance
a reader's search capabilities.

I've toyed with the idea of providing readers with a Web site they
could access once they've purchased one of my books. The Web site
would allow the reader to access an electronic index that's more
functional than the static index in the back of the printed book.

Ed

> Thanks,
> 
> Rich

Re: indexing a book

[Rich Shepard]

On Thu, 27 Nov 2003, Ed Sawicki wrote:

> I love LyX but I dislike the way an index is created.

  I hope that it is not considered too off-topic to ask here about the art
of indexing. This morning I bought a copy of Larry Bonura's "The Art of
Indexing". The most important insight I have gained so far is the difference
in purpose of an index in a scientific book versus one in a technical
manual. The index of a scientific book is used as a reference to specific
information by (usually) someone who has already read the book. The index of
a technical manual (or technical book) is used to answer "how to" questions
by someone who may, or may not, have read the book. Bonura's book focuses on
the latter need.

  So, can folks here recommend resources for me to read on how to decide on
topics, organization and so on for a scientific book? There are many books
out there and I cannot go through all of them trying to find the one that
will teach me what I need to learn.

  I can also understand now why there's a dearth of indexing software. If
the idea of the index is to extract ideas and concepts from the text -- from
the reader's need to know -- how could software do this effectively?

Thanks,

Rich

-- 
Dr. Richard B. Shepard, President
Applied Ecosystem Services, Inc. (TM)

Re: indexing a book

[Ed Sawicki]

On Fri, 2003-11-28 at 05:08, Helge Hafting wrote:
> Ed Sawicki wrote:
> > I love LyX but I dislike the way an index is created.
> > The indexed words are turned into boxes on the screen that
> > I find annoying. I'd also like a bit more automation to make
> > indexing easier. I'm wondering whether I'm overlooking a
> > capability in LyX and whether someone has already created a
> > solution.
> > 
> > If there's no other solution, here's what I plan:
> > 
> > 1. When the book is finished, convert it to ASCII and LaTex.
> > 2. From the ASCII file, create a word list that consists of
> >all the words in the book. Pare this list down to only the
> >words that should be indexed using some automation and manual
> >inspection and editing.
> > 3. Add phrases that should be indexed to the list. I'll have to
> >maintain a list of phrases manually as I write the book.
> > 4. Have a script automatically insert indexing markup into the
> >LaTeX file.
> > 5. Fix any problems with manual editing of the LaTeX file.
> > 6. Use the marked up LaTeX file to print the final book.
> > 
> > Whenever changes to the book are needed, I modify the LyX
> > version of the book. When finished, I go to step 1.
> 
> Be careful with "fully automated indexing".

I never intended fully automated indexing. That would be
foolish. That's why step 5 exists. Perhaps my wording of
step 5 is vague.


> Indexing
> every page where some word occur usually makes for
> a poor index.  It is easy, because all you need is to
> pick the words and let the computer do the rest.  But
> the result is rarely good, as a normal text contain
> many indexable words in places people aren't interested
> in looking up.

I agree, though this is less of a problem when the book is
about a technical subject and most of the index entries are
technical terms.


> I've got the following advice on index creation:
> 1. Try to not index more than three locations for a word.
>People simply don't try 20 locations, so it is
>a waste *even* if all of them are equally relevant. 
>There may be exceptions to this depending on what you're
>writing - this is the general advice.
> 2. Avoid foo:56,57,58,59 (or foo:56--59)  Simply
>index the start of the range, people will go there
>and read through it.
> 3. Index only the important places a word is used.
>People looking in the index for "foo" want to
>find the important pieces about "foo", not everytime the
>word was used.
> 
> This advice is more work and stands in the way of
> automation.  Still, it usually results in better books.
> 
> Helge Hafting
> 

Re: indexing a book

[Ed Sawicki]

On Thu, 2003-11-27 at 12:04, Rich Shepard wrote:
> On Thu, 27 Nov 2003, Christian Ridderström wrote:
> 
> > If you find the boxes annoying, send a suggestion/feature request/ to the
> > devel-list, saying that you'd like to have a way of _not_ displaying the
> > index-boxes.
> 
> Christian, et al.:
> 
>   I believe the problem is not that index boxes are displayed, but that they
> hide the word or phrase from view. The footnote boxes are the same: there's
> a box with a "foot" label and to read the footnote it is necessary to expand
> the box. However, one can read the text without the footnote visible while
> writing and editing. Unfortunately, if a lot of words and phrases are marked
> for the index then the text becomes difficult to read, or unreadable.

The main problem is as you describe - the text is more difficult
to read with index boxes that hide the word or phrase being
indexed.


> 
> > You should include a suggestion for how you think this display on/off-setting
> > should to be controlled... in the preferences, on a per document basis,
> > through some menu toggle, or a dialog etc?
> 
>   What effort would be required to display an index box with the marked
> word/phrase as a lable, similar to the way ERT is displayed? In my book I've
> used ERT to enter, for example, '\texttrademark{}'. When I view the document
> on-screen, I see all but the closing brace.
> 
>   If index box entries displayed like this, rather than with the label,
> 'idx', I think Ed and others (including me) would be delighted.

Yes, I would be delighted with this solution. It appears
that it can be implemented easily making it an attractive
solution.

Alternative and superior solutions for me would be:

1.Normally hide any on-screen indication of index markup
  and only display it by setting a "mode". 

2.Highlight the indexed word or phrase with a visual
  attribute. 

3.Display a symbol next to the indexed word or phrase as
  FrameMaker does.

Ed


> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Rich

Re: indexing a book

[Rich Shepard]

On Fri, 28 Nov 2003, Helge Hafting wrote:

> This advice is more work and stands in the way of automation.  Still, it
> usually results in better books.

Helge,

  I've not before needed to index anything I've written so Ed's concerns
have suddenly become pertinent to my book. Your comments are very valuable
and bring up a topic that I began to appreciate only yesterday. Indexing, I
have just learned, is an art rather than a science. It's one of those things
we don't notice (except that it is done well or poorly), but is not taught
as part of career training. Unless in a Library Sciences program.

  The LyX and LaTeX mail lists may not be the appropriate places for such
discussions, but learning from others will probably benefit all of us who
write technical books. I'm going to the local technical book store (part of
the largest, privately-owned store in the U.S. -- Powell's) and buy a book
on how to index.

  Like writing concisely and without jargon for the non-technical reader, I
think indexing is a skill which we authors should acquire. At least, to some
degree of competence.

  Wouldn't it be useful to have a forum for scientific and technical writers
(authors of other types of work would have equivalent fora) where the art
and techniques of writing -- using LyX and LaTeX, of course -- could be
shared?

  Thanks for your advice. It whets my appetite for learning.

Rich

-- 
Dr. Richard B. Shepard, President
Applied Ecosystem Services, Inc. (TM)

Re: indexing a book

[Helge Hafting]

Ed Sawicki wrote:
I love LyX but I dislike the way an index is created.
The indexed words are turned into boxes on the screen that
I find annoying. I'd also like a bit more automation to make
indexing easier. I'm wondering whether I'm overlooking a
capability in LyX and whether someone has already created a
solution.
If there's no other solution, here's what I plan:

1. When the book is finished, convert it to ASCII and LaTex.
2. From the ASCII file, create a word list that consists of
   all the words in the book. Pare this list down to only the
   words that should be indexed using some automation and manual
   inspection and editing.
3. Add phrases that should be indexed to the list. I'll have to
   maintain a list of phrases manually as I write the book.
4. Have a script automatically insert indexing markup into the
   LaTeX file.
5. Fix any problems with manual editing of the LaTeX file.
6. Use the marked up LaTeX file to print the final book.
Whenever changes to the book are needed, I modify the LyX
version of the book. When finished, I go to step 1.
Be careful with "fully automated indexing".  Indexing
every page where some word occur usually makes for
a poor index.  It is easy, because all you need is to
pick the words and let the computer do the rest.  But
the result is rarely good, as a normal text contain
many indexable words in places people aren't interested
in looking up.  

I've got the following advice on index creation:
1. Try to not index more than three locations for a word.
  People simply don't try 20 locations, so it is
  a waste *even* if all of them are equally relevant. 
  There may be exceptions to this depending on what you're
  writing - this is the general advice.
2. Avoid foo:56,57,58,59 (or foo:56--59)  Simply
  index the start of the range, people will go there
  and read through it.
3. Index only the important places a word is used.
  People looking in the index for "foo" want to
  find the important pieces about "foo", not everytime the
  word was used.

This advice is more work and stands in the way of
automation.  Still, it usually results in better books.
Helge Hafting

Re: indexing a book

[Rich Shepard]

On Fri, 28 Nov 2003, John Levon wrote:

> >   What effort would be required to display an index box with the marked
> > word/phrase as a lable, similar to the way ERT is displayed? In my book I've
>
> Not much effort

john,

  Me: I move that such a change be made.

  Mr. Chairman: Anyone second the motion?

:-)

Rich

-- 
Dr. Richard B. Shepard, President
Applied Ecosystem Services, Inc. (TM)

Re: indexing a book

[John Levon]

On Thu, Nov 27, 2003 at 12:04:48PM -0800, Rich Shepard wrote:

>   What effort would be required to display an index box with the marked
> word/phrase as a lable, similar to the way ERT is displayed? In my book I've

Not much effort

regards
john
-- 
Khendon's Law:
If the same point is made twice by the same person, the thread is over.

Re: indexing a book

[Rich Shepard]

On Thu, 27 Nov 2003, Christian Ridderström wrote:

> If you find the boxes annoying, send a suggestion/feature request/ to the
> devel-list, saying that you'd like to have a way of _not_ displaying the
> index-boxes.

Christian, et al.:

  I believe the problem is not that index boxes are displayed, but that they
hide the word or phrase from view. The footnote boxes are the same: there's
a box with a "foot" label and to read the footnote it is necessary to expand
the box. However, one can read the text without the footnote visible while
writing and editing. Unfortunately, if a lot of words and phrases are marked
for the index then the text becomes difficult to read, or unreadable.

> You should include a suggestion for how you think this display on/off-setting
> should to be controlled... in the preferences, on a per document basis,
> through some menu toggle, or a dialog etc?

  What effort would be required to display an index box with the marked
word/phrase as a lable, similar to the way ERT is displayed? In my book I've
used ERT to enter, for example, '\texttrademark{}'. When I view the document
on-screen, I see all but the closing brace.

  If index box entries displayed like this, rather than with the label,
'idx', I think Ed and others (including me) would be delighted.

Thanks,

Rich

-- 
Dr. Richard B. Shepard, President
Applied Ecosystem Services, Inc. (TM)

Re: indexing a book

[John Levon]

On Thu, Nov 27, 2003 at 07:05:59AM -0800, Ed Sawicki wrote:

> I love LyX but I dislike the way an index is created.
> The indexed words are turned into boxes on the screen that
> I find annoying. I'd also like a bit more automation to make
> indexing easier. I'm wondering whether I'm overlooking a
> capability in LyX and whether someone has already created a
> solution.

Could you please describe your exact problems with the current indexing
feature

john
-- 
Khendon's Law:
If the same point is made twice by the same person, the thread is over.

Re: indexing a book

[Jean-Pierre.Chretien]

>>Subject: indexing a book
>>From: Ed Sawicki <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 07:05:59 -0800
>>
>>I love LyX but I dislike the way an index is created.
>>The indexed words are turned into boxes on the screen that
>>I find annoying. I'd also like a bit more automation to make
>>indexing easier. I'm wondering whether I'm overlooking a
>>capability in LyX and whether someone has already created a
>>solution.

Seems to me that a good index need more than simply indexing
words and that index substructuring and typographic control
is quite important, and should be made while writing.
The contents of the index tags is quite important IMHO.

-- 
Jean-Pierre

Re: indexing a book

[Christian Ridderström]

On Thu, 27 Nov 2003, Ed Sawicki wrote:

> The indexed words are turned into boxes on the screen that
> I find annoying.

If you find the boxes annoying, send a suggestion/feature request/ to the 
devel-list, saying that you'd like to have a way of _not_ displaying the 
index-boxes.

You should include a suggestion for how you think this display on/off-setting 
should to be controlled... in the preferences, on a per document basis,  
through some menu toggle, or a dialog etc? 

/Christian


-- 
Christian Ridderström   http://www.md.kth.se/~chr

indexing a book

[Ed Sawicki]

I love LyX but I dislike the way an index is created.
The indexed words are turned into boxes on the screen that
I find annoying. I'd also like a bit more automation to make
indexing easier. I'm wondering whether I'm overlooking a
capability in LyX and whether someone has already created a
solution.

If there's no other solution, here's what I plan:

1. When the book is finished, convert it to ASCII and LaTex.
2. From the ASCII file, create a word list that consists of
   all the words in the book. Pare this list down to only the
   words that should be indexed using some automation and manual
   inspection and editing.
3. Add phrases that should be indexed to the list. I'll have to
   maintain a list of phrases manually as I write the book.
4. Have a script automatically insert indexing markup into the
   LaTeX file.
5. Fix any problems with manual editing of the LaTeX file.
6. Use the marked up LaTeX file to print the final book.

Whenever changes to the book are needed, I modify the LyX
version of the book. When finished, I go to step 1.

Ed Sawicki