Re: OT: missing tlmgr in Linux distros (was 'Re: LyX 1.6.7 Packages for Ubuntu')

[Liviu Andronic]

On Fri, Sep 10, 2010 at 10:27 AM, Liviu Andronic landronim...@gmail.com wrote:
 Is there really no easy way to have tlmgr alongside
 Debian/Ubuntu-provided TeXLive binaries? Regards
 Liviu

 PS For those concerned, there is an Ubuntu Idea [1] where you can vote
 on this issue.
 [1] http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/11449/

Apparently not. Norbert Preining, one of teh devels (that was) working
on a feature that would make tlmgr work alongside distro package
management add a Brainstorm idea a couple of days ago. Please read
below.
Liviu

-
There is no way that a second package manager independent of the
normal packaging infra structure (apt here, or rpm, or whatever) can
work, because it will break the main system.

TeX Live Manager is currently only for system trees. THere is a patch in
the dev repository for activating user mode, so that tlmgr can be used
to manage TEXMFHOME, but it has not been worked on since quite some time
(due to myself lacking the time of, I developped the initial version).

So instead of complaining and suggesting useless things that will
never happen due to the way distributions work, you could get your
hands dirty and help coding perl!
-

Re: OT: missing tlmgr in Linux distros (was 'Re: LyX 1.6.7 Packages for Ubuntu')

[Liviu Andronic]

On Fri, Sep 10, 2010 at 10:27 AM, Liviu Andronic landronim...@gmail.com wrote:
 Is there really no easy way to have tlmgr alongside
 Debian/Ubuntu-provided TeXLive binaries? Regards
 Liviu

 PS For those concerned, there is an Ubuntu Idea [1] where you can vote
 on this issue.
 [1] http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/11449/

Apparently not. Norbert Preining, one of teh devels (that was) working
on a feature that would make tlmgr work alongside distro package
management add a Brainstorm idea a couple of days ago. Please read
below.
Liviu

-
There is no way that a second package manager independent of the
normal packaging infra structure (apt here, or rpm, or whatever) can
work, because it will break the main system.

TeX Live Manager is currently only for system trees. THere is a patch in
the dev repository for activating user mode, so that tlmgr can be used
to manage TEXMFHOME, but it has not been worked on since quite some time
(due to myself lacking the time of, I developped the initial version).

So instead of complaining and suggesting useless things that will
never happen due to the way distributions work, you could get your
hands dirty and help coding perl!
-

Re: OT: missing tlmgr in Linux distros (was 'Re: LyX 1.6.7 Packages for Ubuntu')

[Liviu Andronic]

On Fri, Sep 10, 2010 at 10:27 AM, Liviu Andronic  wrote:
> Is there really no easy way to have tlmgr alongside
> Debian/Ubuntu-provided TeXLive binaries? Regards
> Liviu
>
> PS For those concerned, there is an Ubuntu Idea [1] where you can vote
> on this issue.
> [1] http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/11449/
>
Apparently not. Norbert Preining, one of teh devels (that was) working
on a feature that would make tlmgr work alongside distro package
management add a Brainstorm idea a couple of days ago. Please read
below.
Liviu

-
There is no way that a second package manager independent of the
normal packaging infra structure (apt here, or rpm, or whatever) can
work, because it will break the main system.

TeX Live Manager is currently only for system trees. THere is a patch in
the dev repository for activating user mode, so that tlmgr can be used
to manage TEXMFHOME, but it has not been worked on since quite some time
(due to myself lacking the time of, I developped the initial version).

So instead of complaining and suggesting useless things that will
never happen due to the way distributions work, you could get your
hands dirty and help coding perl!
-

OT: missing tlmgr in Linux distros (was 'Re: LyX 1.6.7 Packages for Ubuntu')

[Liviu Andronic]

Dear all
Even if it's quite off-topic for lyx-users, re-opening an old discussion.

On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 4:33 PM, Jürgen Spitzmüller sp...@lyx.org wrote:
 Sven Hoexter wrote:
 The Problem is that you often end up with a mess because some third party
 installers/package manager overwrite files of your distribution packages.
 And a few weeks later a new update for your distribution arrives and
 replaces some of the newer files with another older but patched set.

 Sure. But you lose one of the most important features of TeXLive: immediate
 update to the most recent packages from CTAN.

Most people in this thread raised up the 'update' issues: tlmgr can
update packages to the latest available versions. But what about
installing new packages, such as those that are not packaged by
default by the distro? (I make heavy use of 'frletter', but there's no
way it'll get packaged any time soon by Debian/Ubuntu. Otherwise, half
of LyX's document classes are unavailable.) What about installing
non-default fonts? (I'm specifically thinking of Optima/URW Classico,
but other needs may arise.)

Some suggested that users advanced to need non-default classes should
have advanced knowledge and manage an upstream LaTeX installation.
Although I might have enough experience to figure this out, I'm pretty
sure I'm not enthusiastic enough to manage dependency problems arising
from an uninstalled TeXLive or to manually install LaTeX packages or
_fonts_. And at the same time I do need non-default packages.

Is there really no easy way to have tlmgr alongside
Debian/Ubuntu-provided TeXLive binaries? Regards
Liviu

PS For those concerned, there is an Ubuntu Idea [1] where you can vote
on this issue.
[1] http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/11449/


 I cannot judge *buntu or Debian, but openSuse does not update the TeXLive
 package often enough for my needs, so I'd always recommend to abandon the
 distro version and go for the upstream TeXLive version.

 Jürgen




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OT: missing tlmgr in Linux distros (was 'Re: LyX 1.6.7 Packages for Ubuntu')

[Liviu Andronic]

Dear all
Even if it's quite off-topic for lyx-users, re-opening an old discussion.

On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 4:33 PM, Jürgen Spitzmüller sp...@lyx.org wrote:
 Sven Hoexter wrote:
 The Problem is that you often end up with a mess because some third party
 installers/package manager overwrite files of your distribution packages.
 And a few weeks later a new update for your distribution arrives and
 replaces some of the newer files with another older but patched set.

 Sure. But you lose one of the most important features of TeXLive: immediate
 update to the most recent packages from CTAN.

Most people in this thread raised up the 'update' issues: tlmgr can
update packages to the latest available versions. But what about
installing new packages, such as those that are not packaged by
default by the distro? (I make heavy use of 'frletter', but there's no
way it'll get packaged any time soon by Debian/Ubuntu. Otherwise, half
of LyX's document classes are unavailable.) What about installing
non-default fonts? (I'm specifically thinking of Optima/URW Classico,
but other needs may arise.)

Some suggested that users advanced to need non-default classes should
have advanced knowledge and manage an upstream LaTeX installation.
Although I might have enough experience to figure this out, I'm pretty
sure I'm not enthusiastic enough to manage dependency problems arising
from an uninstalled TeXLive or to manually install LaTeX packages or
_fonts_. And at the same time I do need non-default packages.

Is there really no easy way to have tlmgr alongside
Debian/Ubuntu-provided TeXLive binaries? Regards
Liviu

PS For those concerned, there is an Ubuntu Idea [1] where you can vote
on this issue.
[1] http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/11449/


 I cannot judge *buntu or Debian, but openSuse does not update the TeXLive
 package often enough for my needs, so I'd always recommend to abandon the
 distro version and go for the upstream TeXLive version.

 Jürgen




-- 
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OT: missing tlmgr in Linux distros (was 'Re: LyX 1.6.7 Packages for Ubuntu')

[Liviu Andronic]

Dear all
Even if it's quite off-topic for lyx-users, re-opening an old discussion.

On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 4:33 PM, Jürgen Spitzmüller  wrote:
> Sven Hoexter wrote:
>> The Problem is that you often end up with a mess because some third party
>> installers/package manager overwrite files of your distribution packages.
>> And a few weeks later a new update for your distribution arrives and
>> replaces some of the newer files with another older but patched set.
>
> Sure. But you lose one of the most important features of TeXLive: immediate
> update to the most recent packages from CTAN.
>
Most people in this thread raised up the 'update' issues: tlmgr can
update packages to the latest available versions. But what about
installing new packages, such as those that are not packaged by
default by the distro? (I make heavy use of 'frletter', but there's no
way it'll get packaged any time soon by Debian/Ubuntu. Otherwise, half
of LyX's document classes are unavailable.) What about installing
non-default fonts? (I'm specifically thinking of Optima/URW Classico,
but other needs may arise.)

Some suggested that users advanced to need non-default classes should
have advanced knowledge and manage an upstream LaTeX installation.
Although I might have enough experience to figure this out, I'm pretty
sure I'm not enthusiastic enough to manage dependency problems arising
from an uninstalled TeXLive or to manually install LaTeX packages or
_fonts_. And at the same time I do need non-default packages.

Is there really no easy way to have tlmgr alongside
Debian/Ubuntu-provided TeXLive binaries? Regards
Liviu

PS For those concerned, there is an Ubuntu Idea [1] where you can vote
on this issue.
[1] http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/11449/


> I cannot judge *buntu or Debian, but openSuse does not update the TeXLive
> package often enough for my needs, so I'd always recommend to abandon the
> distro version and go for the upstream TeXLive version.
>
> Jürgen
>



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Re: LyX 1.6.7 Packages for Ubuntu

[Guenter Milde]

On 2010-08-20, Julien Rioux wrote:
 On 20/08/2010 10:49 AM, Rob Oakes wrote:

 Which brings me to the question in the front of my mind.  Should we
 create another Ubuntu/Debian package for LyX that doesn't require the
 system LaTeX packages?

Seconded. At least with the internal HTML export, LaTeX should be a
suggestion and not a requirement for LyX.


 Certainly some users will find this helpful. Another thing to consider: 
 aren't there two types of dependencies for .deb packages? 

Actually 3: Required, Suggested, Recommended

http://www.debian.org/doc/FAQ/ch-pkg_basics.en.html#s-depends

IMO, LyX should *recommend* texlive.

Günter

Re: LyX 1.6.7 Packages for Ubuntu

[Guenter Milde]

On 2010-08-20, Julien Rioux wrote:
 On 20/08/2010 10:49 AM, Rob Oakes wrote:

 Which brings me to the question in the front of my mind.  Should we
 create another Ubuntu/Debian package for LyX that doesn't require the
 system LaTeX packages?

Seconded. At least with the internal HTML export, LaTeX should be a
suggestion and not a requirement for LyX.


 Certainly some users will find this helpful. Another thing to consider: 
 aren't there two types of dependencies for .deb packages? 

Actually 3: Required, Suggested, Recommended

http://www.debian.org/doc/FAQ/ch-pkg_basics.en.html#s-depends

IMO, LyX should *recommend* texlive.

Günter

Re: LyX 1.6.7 Packages for Ubuntu

[Guenter Milde]

On 2010-08-20, Julien Rioux wrote:
> On 20/08/2010 10:49 AM, Rob Oakes wrote:

>> Which brings me to the question in the front of my mind.  Should we
>> create another Ubuntu/Debian package for LyX that doesn't require the
>> system LaTeX packages?

Seconded. At least with the internal HTML export, LaTeX should be a
suggestion and not a requirement for LyX.


> Certainly some users will find this helpful. Another thing to consider: 
> aren't there two types of dependencies for .deb packages? 

Actually 3: Required, Suggested, Recommended

http://www.debian.org/doc/FAQ/ch-pkg_basics.en.html#s-depends

IMO, LyX should *recommend* texlive.

Günter

Re: LyX 1.6.7 Packages for Ubuntu

[Liviu Andronic]

Hello Rob

On Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 6:45 PM, Rob Oakes rob.oa...@oak-tree.us wrote:
 PS, if there is interest from the developer/user community, I would also be
 happy to create a PPA for the latest alpha of LyX 2 (or we on the betas
 yet?).  To prevent it from destroying your system, though, I would need to
 patch the packaging files and inertia prevents me from doing so unless there
 is interest.

I'm currently in the process of switching to Xubuntu---I'm probably in
for some stability, coming from the rolling Debian testing and
previously Gentoo---and personally I'd love to have LyX 1.6.x and the
2.0 alphas running independently on my netbook.

Thanks for working on the Ubuntu packaging. Regards
Liviu


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Re: LyX 1.6.7 Packages for Ubuntu

[Liviu Andronic]

On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 2:40 AM, Julien Rioux
jri...@physics.utoronto.ca wrote:
 FYI Although this is true, you cannot use the texlive 2009 package manager
 when texlive 2009 is installed from the ubuntu repository.

That's very strange. Why would they block this?
Liviu



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Re: LyX 1.6.7 Packages for Ubuntu

[ehud.kap...@gmail.com]

 I have had the same question about the TexLive package manager (tlmgr) 
for a while now.  When you install tl2009 on Windows you get tlmgr.  In 
Linux you don't (unless you install from sources, apparently).

Ehud Kaplan

On 8/20/2010 6:23 AM, Liviu Andronic wrote:

On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 2:40 AM, Julien Rioux
jri...@physics.utoronto.ca  wrote:

FYI  Although this is true, you cannot use the texlive 2009 package manager
when texlive 2009 is installed from the ubuntu repository.


That's very strange. Why would they block this?
Liviu





--



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*The laboratory of Visual  Computational Neuroscience*
Depts. of Neuroscience, Ophthalmology, Chemical  Structural Biology
The Mount Sinai School of Medicine
One Gustave Levy Place
New York, NY, 10029

Re: LyX 1.6.7 Packages for Ubuntu

[Jürgen Spitzmüller]

Liviu Andronic wrote:
  FYI Although this is true, you cannot use the texlive 2009 package
  manager when texlive 2009 is installed from the ubuntu repository.
 
 That's very strange. Why would they block this?

The argument, AFAIU, is that the distributors do not want yet another package 
managment (i.e., tlmgr), but let their own package managers (apt, zypper, 
etc.) handle everything. In a way, the TeXLive package managment and the 
distributor's package management contradict.

This is unfortunate, since tlmgr is an important bit of TeXLive. That's why I 
always install TeXLive directly from upstream (i.e., the DVD or the net 
installer).

Jürgen

Re: LyX 1.6.7 Packages for Ubuntu

[Sven Hoexter]

On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 12:53:32PM +0200, Jürgen Spitzmüller wrote:
 Liviu Andronic wrote:
   FYI Although this is true, you cannot use the texlive 2009 package
   manager when texlive 2009 is installed from the ubuntu repository.
  
  That's very strange. Why would they block this?
 
 The argument, AFAIU, is that the distributors do not want yet another package 
 managment (i.e., tlmgr), but let their own package managers (apt, zypper, 
 etc.) handle everything. In a way, the TeXLive package managment and the 
 distributor's package management contradict.

The Problem is that you often end up with a mess because some third party
installers/package manager overwrite files of your distribution packages.
And a few weeks later a new update for your distribution arrives and
replaces some of the newer files with another older but patched set.

If you choose a sane path for the installation and adjust your enviroment
variables accordingly I'm pretty sure that you can create a working
enviroment with tlmgr. If my memory serves me right I even set it up once
to check some bugreports.

As rude as it may sound, I think people who want it that way and
know what todo don't need to ask here. If you've to ask here don't do it.
If you'd like to try it anyway: VirtualBox or Xen/KVM with LVM+snapshots
give you a way to try it out outside of your main system with easy rollback
mechanism.

For the Debian part of the discussion:
There is always equivs which let you create empty dummy packages which
provide the needed packages you try to replace.
I'm not recommending this and you should understand what you're doing.

Sven
-- 
If you won’t forgive me the rest of my life
Let me apologize while I’m still alive
  [Less than Jake - Rest Of My Life]

Re: LyX 1.6.7 Packages for Ubuntu

[Jürgen Spitzmüller]

Sven Hoexter wrote:
 The Problem is that you often end up with a mess because some third party
 installers/package manager overwrite files of your distribution packages.
 And a few weeks later a new update for your distribution arrives and
 replaces some of the newer files with another older but patched set.

Sure. But you lose one of the most important features of TeXLive: immediate 
update to the most recent packages from CTAN.

I cannot judge *buntu or Debian, but openSuse does not update the TeXLive 
package often enough for my needs, so I'd always recommend to abandon the 
distro version and go for the upstream TeXLive version.

Jürgen

Re: LyX 1.6.7 Packages for Ubuntu

[Manveru]

2010/8/20 Jürgen Spitzmüller sp...@lyx.org:

 Sure. But you lose one of the most important features of TeXLive: immediate
 update to the most recent packages from CTAN.

But that strategy is equal for *buntu itself. You are frozen to
packages version coming with *buntu release. The only exception was
minor version changes of Firefox and GNOME (these I can observed).

Hopefully, there are PPAs - the only problem with them is they are not
always maintained by people close to the project of which package may
interest you.

I think (with all respect to the maintainers and users) that *buntu
strategy is to have central package maintenance smarter than dumb
users which may broke something installing different versions of lot
of packages. There are certainly lot of technical explanations why
this strategy better than freedom.

It would be nice to have two lines of *buntu: one kept with long term
support aligned packages limited to released with distro release and
second with all packages available with newest possible version with
disclaimer, that user takes them on it own responsibility. It would be
nice, too, to allow project have their packages maintained for distro
releases, but in more official way than PPAs.

But, I typed so many words about this topic and this is not a place to
discuss such. Apologize.

-- 
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jabber: manv...@manveru.pl
     gg: 1624001
   http://www.manveru.pl

Re: LyX 1.6.7 Packages for Ubuntu

[Julien Rioux]

On 20/08/2010 7:29 AM, Sven Hoexter wrote:

The Problem is that you often end up with a mess because some third party
installers/package manager overwrite files of your distribution packages.
And a few weeks later a new update for your distribution arrives and
replaces some of the newer files with another older but patched set.


Right. We know you can have two systems in parallel: distro repository 
manages system-wide texlive, and tlmgr manages local user texlive.


I would think, though, that there should be a way for the distro 
repository to set this up automatically for the end user.


This is how, after all, python packages are managed (through setup.py). 
But I agree if you really need this, advanced users can figure it out by 
themselves. I can only dream.


Regards,
Julien

Re: LyX 1.6.7 Packages for Ubuntu

[Rob Oakes]

On Aug 20, 2010, at 7:33 AM, Jürgen Spitzmüller wrote:

 Sure. But you lose one of the most important features of TeXLive: immediate 
 update to the most recent packages from CTAN.

I think it really depends on your needs.  The question for the user becomes, 
how often do you really need to update your LaTeX distribution? Given its 
maturity and the high quality of the original packages, I've found the answer 
is: not very often (at least for me).

For example, I just recently updated to TexLive 2009 on my main Ubuntu 
workstation.  For years, only TeXLive 2007 was available as part of the package 
repositories, so I used it.  In all that time, there was only one time that I 
needed a newer copy of a package and couldn't find a workaround.  Sure TeXLive 
included a  bunch of benefits, but I'd be pretty hard-pressed to name one that 
I take advantage of frequently.  In fact, without referring to the change-log, 
I'd be pretty hard pressed to name any at all (updated Tufte classes that 
correctly number margin figures might be one).

For this reason, up to the second versions of LaTeX packages aren't really all 
that important to me.  If the releases were packaged once per year, I think 
that's more than enough for my needs (and I would argue for the needs of most 
other users).  But the three years that it took to update TeXLive 2007 to 
TexLive 2009 was probably too long.  Though I didn't notice any practical need, 
there was a psychological need.  It's important to feel like your software is 
maintained, and going such a long time between updates made TeXLive on Debian 
feel abandoned.

(As a caveat, I'd like the ability to download needed packages on the fly (like 
MikTeX allows), but I am willing to forego that particular nicety for the 
convenience of a single packaging tool.)

So, though i largely agree with your recommendation, I would attach on 
addendum.  For novice LaTeX/LyX users, I would recommend staying with the 
default packages.  For more advanced users that are comfortable with managing 
their own LaTeX installations, going upstream makes a lot of sense.

As someone earlier in this thread said, I wonder if it would be worth packaging 
a version of LyX for this particular demographic.  I wouldn't make it the 
default, but we could easily set up a PPA (in addition to Red Hat/Open SuSe 
equivalents) and post installation instructions somewhere on the website.  If 
an advanced user is willing to set up a custom LaTeX distribution, surely they 
are motivated enough to seek out LyX options that don't require system packages?

Just my two cents, though.

Cheers,

Rob

Re: LyX 1.6.7 Packages for Ubuntu

[Rob Oakes]

 This is how, after all, python packages are managed (through setup.py). But I 
 agree if you really need this, advanced users can figure it out by 
 themselves. I can only dream.

I'm not sure that it's that simple.  (Or if it is, I really need to learn more 
about packaging!)  I maintain a python project for creating backups 
(http://blog.oak-tree.us/index.php/science-and-technology/time-drive).  While 
the packaging scripts use setup.py (distutils) in order to structure things 
during the build process, I'm not sure that it is used during installation.  
(My knowledge of packaging is minimal.  I struggled through it once so that I 
could figure out Time Drive, and a second time while learning to package LyX.  
In both cases, I had good examples and people had already done all the hard 
work for me.)

On the user end, everything seems to be managed by apt and dpkg.  Which takes 
us back to the original problem, there doesn't seem to be a way for the systems 
to automatically talk to one another on the user's system.  It still requires a 
human being (or a very smart build system) to create specific packages for the 
platform.

Which brings me to the question in the front of my mind.   Should we create 
another Ubuntu/Debian package for LyX that doesn't require the system LaTeX 
packages?

Cheers,

Rob

Re: LyX 1.6.7 Packages for Ubuntu

[Julien Rioux]

On 20/08/2010 10:49 AM, Rob Oakes wrote:

This is how, after all, python packages are managed (through setup.py). But I 
agree if you really need this, advanced users can figure it out by themselves. 
I can only dream.

I'm not sure that it's that simple.  (Or if it is, I really need to learn more 
about packaging!)


What I had in mind: third-party python packages that are not managed by 
the distro. You download the source, do setup.py install, and there it 
is, available for import, without fidling with PATH, but still installed 
outside of the distro packages, preventing a mess. But anyway, let's get 
back on topic.



Which brings me to the question in the front of my mind.   Should we create 
another Ubuntu/Debian package for LyX that doesn't require the system LaTeX 
packages?


Certainly some users will find this helpful. Another thing to consider: 
aren't there two types of dependencies for .deb packages? Required and 
suggested? What is the default behavior for apt? Perhaps moving texlive 
to the suggested list is all it takes to satisfy everyone.


Cheers,
Julien

Re: LyX 1.6.7 Packages for Ubuntu

[Jürgen Spitzmüller]

Rob Oakes wrote:
  Sure. But you lose one of the most important features of TeXLive:
  immediate  update to the most recent packages from CTAN.
 
 I think it really depends on your needs. 

I could not agree more.

 The question for the user
 becomes, how often do you really need to update your LaTeX distribution?
 Given its maturity and the high quality of the original packages, I've
 found the answer is: not very often (at least for me).

If you use relatively new packages such as biblatex, the situation is quite 
different, since the package evolves quickly and you often need to update in 
order to have a bug fixed or to use a new feature.

But for the core packages, a one-year update is usually enough.

Jürgen

Re: LyX 1.6.7 Packages for Ubuntu

[Liviu Andronic]

Hello Rob

On Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 6:45 PM, Rob Oakes rob.oa...@oak-tree.us wrote:
 PS, if there is interest from the developer/user community, I would also be
 happy to create a PPA for the latest alpha of LyX 2 (or we on the betas
 yet?).  To prevent it from destroying your system, though, I would need to
 patch the packaging files and inertia prevents me from doing so unless there
 is interest.

I'm currently in the process of switching to Xubuntu---I'm probably in
for some stability, coming from the rolling Debian testing and
previously Gentoo---and personally I'd love to have LyX 1.6.x and the
2.0 alphas running independently on my netbook.

Thanks for working on the Ubuntu packaging. Regards
Liviu


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Re: LyX 1.6.7 Packages for Ubuntu

[Liviu Andronic]

On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 2:40 AM, Julien Rioux
jri...@physics.utoronto.ca wrote:
 FYI Although this is true, you cannot use the texlive 2009 package manager
 when texlive 2009 is installed from the ubuntu repository.

That's very strange. Why would they block this?
Liviu



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Re: LyX 1.6.7 Packages for Ubuntu

[ehud.kap...@gmail.com]

 I have had the same question about the TexLive package manager (tlmgr) 
for a while now.  When you install tl2009 on Windows you get tlmgr.  In 
Linux you don't (unless you install from sources, apparently).

Ehud Kaplan

On 8/20/2010 6:23 AM, Liviu Andronic wrote:

On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 2:40 AM, Julien Rioux
jri...@physics.utoronto.ca  wrote:

FYI  Although this is true, you cannot use the texlive 2009 package manager
when texlive 2009 is installed from the ubuntu repository.


That's very strange. Why would they block this?
Liviu





--



Ehud Kaplan, Ph.D.
Jules and Doris Stein/Research to Prevent Blindness/  Professor
*The laboratory of Visual  Computational Neuroscience*
Depts. of Neuroscience, Ophthalmology, Chemical  Structural Biology
The Mount Sinai School of Medicine
One Gustave Levy Place
New York, NY, 10029

Re: LyX 1.6.7 Packages for Ubuntu

[Jürgen Spitzmüller]

Liviu Andronic wrote:
  FYI Although this is true, you cannot use the texlive 2009 package
  manager when texlive 2009 is installed from the ubuntu repository.
 
 That's very strange. Why would they block this?

The argument, AFAIU, is that the distributors do not want yet another package 
managment (i.e., tlmgr), but let their own package managers (apt, zypper, 
etc.) handle everything. In a way, the TeXLive package managment and the 
distributor's package management contradict.

This is unfortunate, since tlmgr is an important bit of TeXLive. That's why I 
always install TeXLive directly from upstream (i.e., the DVD or the net 
installer).

Jürgen

Re: LyX 1.6.7 Packages for Ubuntu

[Sven Hoexter]

On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 12:53:32PM +0200, Jürgen Spitzmüller wrote:
 Liviu Andronic wrote:
   FYI Although this is true, you cannot use the texlive 2009 package
   manager when texlive 2009 is installed from the ubuntu repository.
  
  That's very strange. Why would they block this?
 
 The argument, AFAIU, is that the distributors do not want yet another package 
 managment (i.e., tlmgr), but let their own package managers (apt, zypper, 
 etc.) handle everything. In a way, the TeXLive package managment and the 
 distributor's package management contradict.

The Problem is that you often end up with a mess because some third party
installers/package manager overwrite files of your distribution packages.
And a few weeks later a new update for your distribution arrives and
replaces some of the newer files with another older but patched set.

If you choose a sane path for the installation and adjust your enviroment
variables accordingly I'm pretty sure that you can create a working
enviroment with tlmgr. If my memory serves me right I even set it up once
to check some bugreports.

As rude as it may sound, I think people who want it that way and
know what todo don't need to ask here. If you've to ask here don't do it.
If you'd like to try it anyway: VirtualBox or Xen/KVM with LVM+snapshots
give you a way to try it out outside of your main system with easy rollback
mechanism.

For the Debian part of the discussion:
There is always equivs which let you create empty dummy packages which
provide the needed packages you try to replace.
I'm not recommending this and you should understand what you're doing.

Sven
-- 
If you won’t forgive me the rest of my life
Let me apologize while I’m still alive
  [Less than Jake - Rest Of My Life]

Re: LyX 1.6.7 Packages for Ubuntu

[Jürgen Spitzmüller]

Sven Hoexter wrote:
 The Problem is that you often end up with a mess because some third party
 installers/package manager overwrite files of your distribution packages.
 And a few weeks later a new update for your distribution arrives and
 replaces some of the newer files with another older but patched set.

Sure. But you lose one of the most important features of TeXLive: immediate 
update to the most recent packages from CTAN.

I cannot judge *buntu or Debian, but openSuse does not update the TeXLive 
package often enough for my needs, so I'd always recommend to abandon the 
distro version and go for the upstream TeXLive version.

Jürgen

Re: LyX 1.6.7 Packages for Ubuntu

[Manveru]

2010/8/20 Jürgen Spitzmüller sp...@lyx.org:

 Sure. But you lose one of the most important features of TeXLive: immediate
 update to the most recent packages from CTAN.

But that strategy is equal for *buntu itself. You are frozen to
packages version coming with *buntu release. The only exception was
minor version changes of Firefox and GNOME (these I can observed).

Hopefully, there are PPAs - the only problem with them is they are not
always maintained by people close to the project of which package may
interest you.

I think (with all respect to the maintainers and users) that *buntu
strategy is to have central package maintenance smarter than dumb
users which may broke something installing different versions of lot
of packages. There are certainly lot of technical explanations why
this strategy better than freedom.

It would be nice to have two lines of *buntu: one kept with long term
support aligned packages limited to released with distro release and
second with all packages available with newest possible version with
disclaimer, that user takes them on it own responsibility. It would be
nice, too, to allow project have their packages maintained for distro
releases, but in more official way than PPAs.

But, I typed so many words about this topic and this is not a place to
discuss such. Apologize.

-- 
Manveru
jabber: manv...@manveru.pl
     gg: 1624001
   http://www.manveru.pl

Re: LyX 1.6.7 Packages for Ubuntu

[Julien Rioux]

On 20/08/2010 7:29 AM, Sven Hoexter wrote:

The Problem is that you often end up with a mess because some third party
installers/package manager overwrite files of your distribution packages.
And a few weeks later a new update for your distribution arrives and
replaces some of the newer files with another older but patched set.


Right. We know you can have two systems in parallel: distro repository 
manages system-wide texlive, and tlmgr manages local user texlive.


I would think, though, that there should be a way for the distro 
repository to set this up automatically for the end user.


This is how, after all, python packages are managed (through setup.py). 
But I agree if you really need this, advanced users can figure it out by 
themselves. I can only dream.


Regards,
Julien

Re: LyX 1.6.7 Packages for Ubuntu

[Rob Oakes]

On Aug 20, 2010, at 7:33 AM, Jürgen Spitzmüller wrote:

 Sure. But you lose one of the most important features of TeXLive: immediate 
 update to the most recent packages from CTAN.

I think it really depends on your needs.  The question for the user becomes, 
how often do you really need to update your LaTeX distribution? Given its 
maturity and the high quality of the original packages, I've found the answer 
is: not very often (at least for me).

For example, I just recently updated to TexLive 2009 on my main Ubuntu 
workstation.  For years, only TeXLive 2007 was available as part of the package 
repositories, so I used it.  In all that time, there was only one time that I 
needed a newer copy of a package and couldn't find a workaround.  Sure TeXLive 
included a  bunch of benefits, but I'd be pretty hard-pressed to name one that 
I take advantage of frequently.  In fact, without referring to the change-log, 
I'd be pretty hard pressed to name any at all (updated Tufte classes that 
correctly number margin figures might be one).

For this reason, up to the second versions of LaTeX packages aren't really all 
that important to me.  If the releases were packaged once per year, I think 
that's more than enough for my needs (and I would argue for the needs of most 
other users).  But the three years that it took to update TeXLive 2007 to 
TexLive 2009 was probably too long.  Though I didn't notice any practical need, 
there was a psychological need.  It's important to feel like your software is 
maintained, and going such a long time between updates made TeXLive on Debian 
feel abandoned.

(As a caveat, I'd like the ability to download needed packages on the fly (like 
MikTeX allows), but I am willing to forego that particular nicety for the 
convenience of a single packaging tool.)

So, though i largely agree with your recommendation, I would attach on 
addendum.  For novice LaTeX/LyX users, I would recommend staying with the 
default packages.  For more advanced users that are comfortable with managing 
their own LaTeX installations, going upstream makes a lot of sense.

As someone earlier in this thread said, I wonder if it would be worth packaging 
a version of LyX for this particular demographic.  I wouldn't make it the 
default, but we could easily set up a PPA (in addition to Red Hat/Open SuSe 
equivalents) and post installation instructions somewhere on the website.  If 
an advanced user is willing to set up a custom LaTeX distribution, surely they 
are motivated enough to seek out LyX options that don't require system packages?

Just my two cents, though.

Cheers,

Rob

Re: LyX 1.6.7 Packages for Ubuntu

[Rob Oakes]

 This is how, after all, python packages are managed (through setup.py). But I 
 agree if you really need this, advanced users can figure it out by 
 themselves. I can only dream.

I'm not sure that it's that simple.  (Or if it is, I really need to learn more 
about packaging!)  I maintain a python project for creating backups 
(http://blog.oak-tree.us/index.php/science-and-technology/time-drive).  While 
the packaging scripts use setup.py (distutils) in order to structure things 
during the build process, I'm not sure that it is used during installation.  
(My knowledge of packaging is minimal.  I struggled through it once so that I 
could figure out Time Drive, and a second time while learning to package LyX.  
In both cases, I had good examples and people had already done all the hard 
work for me.)

On the user end, everything seems to be managed by apt and dpkg.  Which takes 
us back to the original problem, there doesn't seem to be a way for the systems 
to automatically talk to one another on the user's system.  It still requires a 
human being (or a very smart build system) to create specific packages for the 
platform.

Which brings me to the question in the front of my mind.   Should we create 
another Ubuntu/Debian package for LyX that doesn't require the system LaTeX 
packages?

Cheers,

Rob

Re: LyX 1.6.7 Packages for Ubuntu

[Julien Rioux]

On 20/08/2010 10:49 AM, Rob Oakes wrote:

This is how, after all, python packages are managed (through setup.py). But I 
agree if you really need this, advanced users can figure it out by themselves. 
I can only dream.

I'm not sure that it's that simple.  (Or if it is, I really need to learn more 
about packaging!)


What I had in mind: third-party python packages that are not managed by 
the distro. You download the source, do setup.py install, and there it 
is, available for import, without fidling with PATH, but still installed 
outside of the distro packages, preventing a mess. But anyway, let's get 
back on topic.



Which brings me to the question in the front of my mind.   Should we create 
another Ubuntu/Debian package for LyX that doesn't require the system LaTeX 
packages?


Certainly some users will find this helpful. Another thing to consider: 
aren't there two types of dependencies for .deb packages? Required and 
suggested? What is the default behavior for apt? Perhaps moving texlive 
to the suggested list is all it takes to satisfy everyone.


Cheers,
Julien

Re: LyX 1.6.7 Packages for Ubuntu

[Jürgen Spitzmüller]

Rob Oakes wrote:
  Sure. But you lose one of the most important features of TeXLive:
  immediate  update to the most recent packages from CTAN.
 
 I think it really depends on your needs. 

I could not agree more.

 The question for the user
 becomes, how often do you really need to update your LaTeX distribution?
 Given its maturity and the high quality of the original packages, I've
 found the answer is: not very often (at least for me).

If you use relatively new packages such as biblatex, the situation is quite 
different, since the package evolves quickly and you often need to update in 
order to have a bug fixed or to use a new feature.

But for the core packages, a one-year update is usually enough.

Jürgen

Re: LyX 1.6.7 Packages for Ubuntu

[Liviu Andronic]

Hello Rob

On Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 6:45 PM, Rob Oakes  wrote:
> PS, if there is interest from the developer/user community, I would also be
> happy to create a PPA for the latest alpha of LyX 2 (or we on the betas
> yet?).  To prevent it from destroying your system, though, I would need to
> patch the packaging files and inertia prevents me from doing so unless there
> is interest.
>
I'm currently in the process of switching to Xubuntu---I'm probably in
for some stability, coming from the rolling Debian testing and
previously Gentoo---and personally I'd love to have LyX 1.6.x and the
2.0 alphas running independently on my netbook.

Thanks for working on the Ubuntu packaging. Regards
Liviu


-- 
Do you know how to read?
http://www.alienetworks.com/srtest.cfm
http://goodies.xfce.org/projects/applications/xfce4-dict#speed-reader
Do you know how to write?
http://garbl.home.comcast.net/~garbl/stylemanual/e.htm#e-mail

Re: LyX 1.6.7 Packages for Ubuntu

[Liviu Andronic]

On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 2:40 AM, Julien Rioux
 wrote:
> FYI> Although this is true, you cannot use the texlive 2009 package manager
> when texlive 2009 is installed from the ubuntu repository.
>
That's very strange. Why would they block this?
Liviu



-- 
Do you know how to read?
http://www.alienetworks.com/srtest.cfm
http://goodies.xfce.org/projects/applications/xfce4-dict#speed-reader
Do you know how to write?
http://garbl.home.comcast.net/~garbl/stylemanual/e.htm#e-mail

Re: LyX 1.6.7 Packages for Ubuntu

[ehud.kap...@gmail.com]

 I have had the same question about the TexLive package manager (tlmgr) 
for a while now.  When you install tl2009 on Windows you get tlmgr.  In 
Linux you don't (unless you install from sources, apparently).

Ehud Kaplan

On 8/20/2010 6:23 AM, Liviu Andronic wrote:

On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 2:40 AM, Julien Rioux
  wrote:

FYI>  Although this is true, you cannot use the texlive 2009 package manager
when texlive 2009 is installed from the ubuntu repository.


That's very strange. Why would they block this?
Liviu





--



Ehud Kaplan, Ph.D.
Jules and Doris Stein/Research to Prevent Blindness/  Professor
*The laboratory of Visual&  Computational Neuroscience*
Depts. of Neuroscience, Ophthalmology, Chemical&  Structural Biology
The Mount Sinai School of Medicine
One Gustave Levy Place
New York, NY, 10029

Re: LyX 1.6.7 Packages for Ubuntu

[Jürgen Spitzmüller]

Liviu Andronic wrote:
> > FYI> Although this is true, you cannot use the texlive 2009 package
> > manager when texlive 2009 is installed from the ubuntu repository.
> 
> That's very strange. Why would they block this?

The argument, AFAIU, is that the distributors do not want yet another package 
managment (i.e., tlmgr), but let their own package managers (apt, zypper, 
etc.) handle everything. In a way, the TeXLive package managment and the 
distributor's package management contradict.

This is unfortunate, since tlmgr is an important bit of TeXLive. That's why I 
always install TeXLive directly from upstream (i.e., the DVD or the net 
installer).

Jürgen

Re: LyX 1.6.7 Packages for Ubuntu

[Sven Hoexter]

On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 12:53:32PM +0200, Jürgen Spitzmüller wrote:
> Liviu Andronic wrote:
> > > FYI> Although this is true, you cannot use the texlive 2009 package
> > > manager when texlive 2009 is installed from the ubuntu repository.
> > 
> > That's very strange. Why would they block this?
> 
> The argument, AFAIU, is that the distributors do not want yet another package 
> managment (i.e., tlmgr), but let their own package managers (apt, zypper, 
> etc.) handle everything. In a way, the TeXLive package managment and the 
> distributor's package management contradict.

The Problem is that you often end up with a mess because some third party
installers/package manager overwrite files of your distribution packages.
And a few weeks later a new update for your distribution arrives and
replaces some of the newer files with another older but patched set.

If you choose a sane path for the installation and adjust your enviroment
variables accordingly I'm pretty sure that you can create a working
enviroment with tlmgr. If my memory serves me right I even set it up once
to check some bugreports.

As rude as it may sound, I think people who want it that way and
know what todo don't need to ask here. If you've to ask here don't do it.
If you'd like to try it anyway: VirtualBox or Xen/KVM with LVM+snapshots
give you a way to try it out outside of your main system with easy rollback
mechanism.

For the Debian part of the discussion:
There is always equivs which let you create empty dummy packages which
provide the needed packages you try to replace.
I'm not recommending this and you should understand what you're doing.

Sven
-- 
If you won’t forgive me the rest of my life
Let me apologize while I’m still alive
  [Less than Jake - Rest Of My Life]

Re: LyX 1.6.7 Packages for Ubuntu

[Jürgen Spitzmüller]

Sven Hoexter wrote:
> The Problem is that you often end up with a mess because some third party
> installers/package manager overwrite files of your distribution packages.
> And a few weeks later a new update for your distribution arrives and
> replaces some of the newer files with another older but patched set.

Sure. But you lose one of the most important features of TeXLive: immediate 
update to the most recent packages from CTAN.

I cannot judge *buntu or Debian, but openSuse does not update the TeXLive 
package often enough for my needs, so I'd always recommend to abandon the 
distro version and go for the upstream TeXLive version.

Jürgen

Re: LyX 1.6.7 Packages for Ubuntu

[Manveru]

2010/8/20 Jürgen Spitzmüller :

> Sure. But you lose one of the most important features of TeXLive: immediate
> update to the most recent packages from CTAN.

But that strategy is equal for *buntu itself. You are frozen to
packages version coming with *buntu release. The only exception was
minor version changes of Firefox and GNOME (these I can observed).

Hopefully, there are PPAs - the only problem with them is they are not
always maintained by people close to the project of which package may
interest you.

I think (with all respect to the maintainers and users) that *buntu
strategy is to have central package maintenance smarter than dumb
users which may broke something installing different versions of lot
of packages. There are certainly lot of technical explanations why
this strategy better than freedom.

It would be nice to have two lines of *buntu: one kept with long term
support aligned packages limited to released with distro release and
second with all packages available with newest possible version with
disclaimer, that user takes them on it own responsibility. It would be
nice, too, to allow project have their packages maintained for distro
releases, but in more official way than PPAs.

But, I typed so many words about this topic and this is not a place to
discuss such. Apologize.

-- 
Manveru
jabber: manv...@manveru.pl
     gg: 1624001
   http://www.manveru.pl

Re: LyX 1.6.7 Packages for Ubuntu

[Julien Rioux]

On 20/08/2010 7:29 AM, Sven Hoexter wrote:

The Problem is that you often end up with a mess because some third party
installers/package manager overwrite files of your distribution packages.
And a few weeks later a new update for your distribution arrives and
replaces some of the newer files with another older but patched set.


Right. We know you can have two systems in parallel: distro repository 
manages system-wide texlive, and tlmgr manages local user texlive.


I would think, though, that there should be a way for the distro 
repository to set this up automatically for the end user.


This is how, after all, python packages are managed (through setup.py). 
But I agree if you really need this, advanced users can figure it out by 
themselves. I can only dream.


Regards,
Julien

Re: LyX 1.6.7 Packages for Ubuntu

[Rob Oakes]

On Aug 20, 2010, at 7:33 AM, Jürgen Spitzmüller wrote:

> Sure. But you lose one of the most important features of TeXLive: immediate 
> update to the most recent packages from CTAN.

I think it really depends on your needs.  The question for the user becomes, 
how often do you really need to update your LaTeX distribution? Given its 
maturity and the high quality of the original packages, I've found the answer 
is: not very often (at least for me).

For example, I just recently updated to TexLive 2009 on my main Ubuntu 
workstation.  For years, only TeXLive 2007 was available as part of the package 
repositories, so I used it.  In all that time, there was only one time that I 
needed a newer copy of a package and couldn't find a workaround.  Sure TeXLive 
included a  bunch of benefits, but I'd be pretty hard-pressed to name one that 
I take advantage of frequently.  In fact, without referring to the change-log, 
I'd be pretty hard pressed to name any at all (updated Tufte classes that 
correctly number margin figures might be one).

For this reason, up to the second versions of LaTeX packages aren't really all 
that important to me.  If the releases were packaged once per year, I think 
that's more than enough for my needs (and I would argue for the needs of most 
other users).  But the three years that it took to update TeXLive 2007 to 
TexLive 2009 was probably too long.  Though I didn't notice any practical need, 
there was a psychological need.  It's important to feel like your software is 
maintained, and going such a long time between updates made TeXLive on Debian 
feel abandoned.

(As a caveat, I'd like the ability to download needed packages on the fly (like 
MikTeX allows), but I am willing to forego that particular nicety for the 
convenience of a single packaging tool.)

So, though i largely agree with your recommendation, I would attach on 
addendum.  For novice LaTeX/LyX users, I would recommend staying with the 
default packages.  For more advanced users that are comfortable with managing 
their own LaTeX installations, going upstream makes a lot of sense.

As someone earlier in this thread said, I wonder if it would be worth packaging 
a version of LyX for this particular demographic.  I wouldn't make it the 
default, but we could easily set up a PPA (in addition to Red Hat/Open SuSe 
equivalents) and post installation instructions somewhere on the website.  If 
an advanced user is willing to set up a custom LaTeX distribution, surely they 
are motivated enough to seek out LyX options that don't require system packages?

Just my two cents, though.

Cheers,

Rob

Re: LyX 1.6.7 Packages for Ubuntu

[Rob Oakes]

> This is how, after all, python packages are managed (through setup.py). But I 
> agree if you really need this, advanced users can figure it out by 
> themselves. I can only dream.

I'm not sure that it's that simple.  (Or if it is, I really need to learn more 
about packaging!)  I maintain a python project for creating backups 
(http://blog.oak-tree.us/index.php/science-and-technology/time-drive).  While 
the packaging scripts use setup.py (distutils) in order to structure things 
during the build process, I'm not sure that it is used during installation.  
(My knowledge of packaging is minimal.  I struggled through it once so that I 
could figure out Time Drive, and a second time while learning to package LyX.  
In both cases, I had good examples and people had already done all the hard 
work for me.)

On the user end, everything seems to be managed by apt and dpkg.  Which takes 
us back to the original problem, there doesn't seem to be a way for the systems 
to automatically talk to one another on the user's system.  It still requires a 
human being (or a very smart build system) to create specific packages for the 
platform.

Which brings me to the question in the front of my mind.   Should we create 
another Ubuntu/Debian package for LyX that doesn't require the system LaTeX 
packages?

Cheers,

Rob

Re: LyX 1.6.7 Packages for Ubuntu

[Julien Rioux]

On 20/08/2010 10:49 AM, Rob Oakes wrote:

This is how, after all, python packages are managed (through setup.py). But I 
agree if you really need this, advanced users can figure it out by themselves. 
I can only dream.

I'm not sure that it's that simple.  (Or if it is, I really need to learn more 
about packaging!)


What I had in mind: third-party python packages that are not managed by 
the distro. You download the source, do setup.py install, and there it 
is, available for import, without fidling with PATH, but still installed 
outside of the distro packages, preventing a mess. But anyway, let's get 
back on topic.



Which brings me to the question in the front of my mind.   Should we create 
another Ubuntu/Debian package for LyX that doesn't require the system LaTeX 
packages?


Certainly some users will find this helpful. Another thing to consider: 
aren't there two types of dependencies for .deb packages? Required and 
suggested? What is the default behavior for apt? Perhaps moving texlive 
to the suggested list is all it takes to satisfy everyone.


Cheers,
Julien

Re: LyX 1.6.7 Packages for Ubuntu

[Jürgen Spitzmüller]

Rob Oakes wrote:
> > Sure. But you lose one of the most important features of TeXLive:
> > immediate  update to the most recent packages from CTAN.
> 
> I think it really depends on your needs. 

I could not agree more.

> The question for the user
> becomes, how often do you really need to update your LaTeX distribution?
> Given its maturity and the high quality of the original packages, I've
> found the answer is: not very often (at least for me).

If you use relatively new packages such as biblatex, the situation is quite 
different, since the package evolves quickly and you often need to update in 
order to have a bug fixed or to use a new feature.

But for the core packages, a one-year update is usually enough.

Jürgen

Re: LyX 1.6.7 Packages for Ubuntu

[Ignacio García]

Rob Oakes wrote:

 I wanted to provide a bit of an update to my adventures with Ubuntu packaging 
 (insofar as they are related to LyX).

 I've spoken with the Ubuntu developers, and they have granted our request to 
 include 1.6.7 in the next version of Ubuntu (Maverick Meerkat, 10.10). 
 Packages have been compiled and are available from Launchpad as of this 
 moment (https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/lyx).

 For users of Lucid Lynx (10.04) who would like to upgrade, I have created a 
 PPA that you can use 
 (https://launchpad.net/~lyx-outline-devel/+archive/lyx-stable).

Thanks! That is very good news.
Moreover, a lyx-1.6.7 deb package is available on getdeb repos from
2010-07-23, http://www.getdeb.net/software/LyX

 PS, if there is interest from the developer/user community, I would also be 
 happy to create a PPA for the latest alpha of LyX 2 (or we on the betas 
 yet?). To prevent it from destroying your system, though, I would need to 
 patch the packaging files and inertia prevents me from doing so unless there 
 is interest.

I am used to compile the alpha releases, but I think that it would be
very useful, always provided both the stable and the devel releases
are fully independently operational.

Thanks and regards
Ignacio García

Re: LyX 1.6.7 Packages for Ubuntu

[Fareed Qureshi]

On 08/19/2010 04:24 AM, Ignacio García wrote:

 I wanted to provide a bit of an update to my adventures with Ubuntu packaging 
 (insofar as they are related to LyX).
 I've spoken with the Ubuntu developers, and they have granted our request to 
 include 1.6.7 in the next version of Ubuntu (Maverick Meerkat, 10.10). 
 Packages have been compiled and are available from Launchpad as of this 
 moment (https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/lyx). 
 For users of Lucid Lynx (10.04) who would like to upgrade, I have created a 
 PPA that you can use 
 (https://launchpad.net/~lyx-outline-devel/+archive/lyx-stable).

Does this new LyX package depend on the the TexLive in Ubuntu's
repositories? Ubuntu's version of TexLive was out-of-date for a long
time, so I installed TexLive 2009 directly from its net installer, to
use its latex package manager. As a result I've had to install any latex
related programs (LyX, kile, etc) from source to prevent apt from
installing its own version of TexLive.

I don't particularly mind having to manage latex related programs
manually, but it would be nice if apt could manage LyX without forcing
me to use Ubuntu's TexLive.

Re: LyX 1.6.7 Packages for Ubuntu

[Rob Oakes]

 Hi Fareed,

Does this new LyX package depend on the the TexLive in Ubuntu's
repositories? Ubuntu's version of TexLive was out-of-date for a long
time, so I installed TexLive 2009 directly from its net installer, to
use its latex package manager. As a result I've had to install any latex
related programs (LyX, kile, etc) from source to prevent apt from
installing its own version of TexLive.
Unfortunately, it does.  I simply made a few (very minor) modifications 
to the existing debian package and then submitted it to the Launchpad 
build service.  I did not change the package requirements.


However, Ubuntu updated the version of LaTeX to TeXLive 2009 in 10.04.  
If you're using an older version of Ubuntu, it is possible to have 
multiple versions of TeX installed side by side.  This article explains 
how (even though the instructions use Ubuntu 10.04 as an example, they 
work with older versions as well):


http://blog.oak-tree.us/index.php/2010/07/15/latex-custom

If you object to that, it's also possible to create dummy packages, 
though that is more involved:


http://texblog.net/latex-archive/linux/kile-texlive-2008-equivs/

If you've already been installing from source, though, you may wish to 
continue with that.  It makes updating to newer versions significantly 
easier, and it sounds as though you've already made the initial time 
investment (which is what I find killer).


Cheers,

Rob

Re: LyX 1.6.7 Packages for Ubuntu

[Julien Rioux]

On 19/08/2010 7:28 PM, Rob Oakes wrote:

However, Ubuntu updated the version of LaTeX to TeXLive 2009 in 10.04.


FYI Although this is true, you cannot use the texlive 2009 package 
manager when texlive 2009 is installed from the ubuntu repository.


--
Julien

Re: LyX 1.6.7 Packages for Ubuntu

[Ignacio García]

Rob Oakes wrote:

 I wanted to provide a bit of an update to my adventures with Ubuntu packaging 
 (insofar as they are related to LyX).

 I've spoken with the Ubuntu developers, and they have granted our request to 
 include 1.6.7 in the next version of Ubuntu (Maverick Meerkat, 10.10). 
 Packages have been compiled and are available from Launchpad as of this 
 moment (https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/lyx).

 For users of Lucid Lynx (10.04) who would like to upgrade, I have created a 
 PPA that you can use 
 (https://launchpad.net/~lyx-outline-devel/+archive/lyx-stable).

Thanks! That is very good news.
Moreover, a lyx-1.6.7 deb package is available on getdeb repos from
2010-07-23, http://www.getdeb.net/software/LyX

 PS, if there is interest from the developer/user community, I would also be 
 happy to create a PPA for the latest alpha of LyX 2 (or we on the betas 
 yet?). To prevent it from destroying your system, though, I would need to 
 patch the packaging files and inertia prevents me from doing so unless there 
 is interest.

I am used to compile the alpha releases, but I think that it would be
very useful, always provided both the stable and the devel releases
are fully independently operational.

Thanks and regards
Ignacio García

Re: LyX 1.6.7 Packages for Ubuntu

[Fareed Qureshi]

On 08/19/2010 04:24 AM, Ignacio García wrote:

 I wanted to provide a bit of an update to my adventures with Ubuntu packaging 
 (insofar as they are related to LyX).
 I've spoken with the Ubuntu developers, and they have granted our request to 
 include 1.6.7 in the next version of Ubuntu (Maverick Meerkat, 10.10). 
 Packages have been compiled and are available from Launchpad as of this 
 moment (https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/lyx). 
 For users of Lucid Lynx (10.04) who would like to upgrade, I have created a 
 PPA that you can use 
 (https://launchpad.net/~lyx-outline-devel/+archive/lyx-stable).

Does this new LyX package depend on the the TexLive in Ubuntu's
repositories? Ubuntu's version of TexLive was out-of-date for a long
time, so I installed TexLive 2009 directly from its net installer, to
use its latex package manager. As a result I've had to install any latex
related programs (LyX, kile, etc) from source to prevent apt from
installing its own version of TexLive.

I don't particularly mind having to manage latex related programs
manually, but it would be nice if apt could manage LyX without forcing
me to use Ubuntu's TexLive.

Re: LyX 1.6.7 Packages for Ubuntu

[Rob Oakes]

 Hi Fareed,

Does this new LyX package depend on the the TexLive in Ubuntu's
repositories? Ubuntu's version of TexLive was out-of-date for a long
time, so I installed TexLive 2009 directly from its net installer, to
use its latex package manager. As a result I've had to install any latex
related programs (LyX, kile, etc) from source to prevent apt from
installing its own version of TexLive.
Unfortunately, it does.  I simply made a few (very minor) modifications 
to the existing debian package and then submitted it to the Launchpad 
build service.  I did not change the package requirements.


However, Ubuntu updated the version of LaTeX to TeXLive 2009 in 10.04.  
If you're using an older version of Ubuntu, it is possible to have 
multiple versions of TeX installed side by side.  This article explains 
how (even though the instructions use Ubuntu 10.04 as an example, they 
work with older versions as well):


http://blog.oak-tree.us/index.php/2010/07/15/latex-custom

If you object to that, it's also possible to create dummy packages, 
though that is more involved:


http://texblog.net/latex-archive/linux/kile-texlive-2008-equivs/

If you've already been installing from source, though, you may wish to 
continue with that.  It makes updating to newer versions significantly 
easier, and it sounds as though you've already made the initial time 
investment (which is what I find killer).


Cheers,

Rob

Re: LyX 1.6.7 Packages for Ubuntu

[Julien Rioux]

On 19/08/2010 7:28 PM, Rob Oakes wrote:

However, Ubuntu updated the version of LaTeX to TeXLive 2009 in 10.04.


FYI Although this is true, you cannot use the texlive 2009 package 
manager when texlive 2009 is installed from the ubuntu repository.


--
Julien

Re: LyX 1.6.7 Packages for Ubuntu

[Ignacio García]

Rob Oakes wrote:

> I wanted to provide a bit of an update to my adventures with Ubuntu packaging 
> (insofar as they are related to LyX).

> I've spoken with the Ubuntu developers, and they have granted our request to 
> include 1.6.7 in the next version of Ubuntu (Maverick Meerkat, 10.10). 
> Packages have been compiled and are available from Launchpad as of this 
> moment (https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/lyx).

> For users of Lucid Lynx (10.04) who would like to upgrade, I have created a 
> PPA that you can use 
> (https://launchpad.net/~lyx-outline-devel/+archive/lyx-stable).

Thanks! That is very good news.
Moreover, a lyx-1.6.7 deb package is available on getdeb repos from
2010-07-23, http://www.getdeb.net/software/LyX

> PS, if there is interest from the developer/user community, I would also be 
> happy to create a PPA for the latest alpha of LyX 2 (or we on the betas 
> yet?). To prevent it from destroying your system, though, I would need to 
> patch the packaging files and inertia prevents me from doing so unless there 
> is interest.

I am used to compile the alpha releases, but I think that it would be
very useful, always provided both the stable and the devel releases
are fully independently operational.

Thanks and regards
Ignacio García

Re: LyX 1.6.7 Packages for Ubuntu

[Fareed Qureshi]

On 08/19/2010 04:24 AM, Ignacio García wrote:

> I wanted to provide a bit of an update to my adventures with Ubuntu packaging 
> (insofar as they are related to LyX).
> I've spoken with the Ubuntu developers, and they have granted our request to 
> include 1.6.7 in the next version of Ubuntu (Maverick Meerkat, 10.10). 
> Packages have been compiled and are available from Launchpad as of this 
> moment (https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/lyx). 
> For users of Lucid Lynx (10.04) who would like to upgrade, I have created a 
> PPA that you can use 
> (https://launchpad.net/~lyx-outline-devel/+archive/lyx-stable).

Does this new LyX package depend on the the TexLive in Ubuntu's
repositories? Ubuntu's version of TexLive was out-of-date for a long
time, so I installed TexLive 2009 directly from its net installer, to
use its latex package manager. As a result I've had to install any latex
related programs (LyX, kile, etc) from source to prevent apt from
installing its own version of TexLive.

I don't particularly mind having to manage latex related programs
manually, but it would be nice if apt could manage LyX without forcing
me to use Ubuntu's TexLive.

Re: LyX 1.6.7 Packages for Ubuntu

[Rob Oakes]

 Hi Fareed,

Does this new LyX package depend on the the TexLive in Ubuntu's
repositories? Ubuntu's version of TexLive was out-of-date for a long
time, so I installed TexLive 2009 directly from its net installer, to
use its latex package manager. As a result I've had to install any latex
related programs (LyX, kile, etc) from source to prevent apt from
installing its own version of TexLive.
Unfortunately, it does.  I simply made a few (very minor) modifications 
to the existing debian package and then submitted it to the Launchpad 
build service.  I did not change the package requirements.


However, Ubuntu updated the version of LaTeX to TeXLive 2009 in 10.04.  
If you're using an older version of Ubuntu, it is possible to have 
multiple versions of TeX installed side by side.  This article explains 
how (even though the instructions use Ubuntu 10.04 as an example, they 
work with older versions as well):


http://blog.oak-tree.us/index.php/2010/07/15/latex-custom

If you object to that, it's also possible to create dummy packages, 
though that is more involved:


http://texblog.net/latex-archive/linux/kile-texlive-2008-equivs/

If you've already been installing from source, though, you may wish to 
continue with that.  It makes updating to newer versions significantly 
easier, and it sounds as though you've already made the initial time 
investment (which is what I find killer).


Cheers,

Rob

Re: LyX 1.6.7 Packages for Ubuntu

[Julien Rioux]

On 19/08/2010 7:28 PM, Rob Oakes wrote:

However, Ubuntu updated the version of LaTeX to TeXLive 2009 in 10.04.


FYI> Although this is true, you cannot use the texlive 2009 package 
manager when texlive 2009 is installed from the ubuntu repository.


--
Julien

Re: LyX 1.6.7 Packages for Ubuntu

[Manveru]

2010/8/17 Pavel Sanda sa...@lyx.org:
 Rob Oakes wrote:
  Dear LyX Users and Developers,

 firstly, thanks to care about ubuntu repos. the most frequent bug report
 is the combination of lyx 1.6.5  qt-4.6 in lynx; dont know if buntu's
 policies permit this but it would be great if all buntu users got 1.6.7
 automatically updated through the online updates - i guess that regular
 crashes really debase the reputation of the package in the users eyes.

As far as I know they were allow to patch the bug only. They do not
want to change functionality and change any library dependencies. But
I think this is only available for packages actively maintained on
Launchpad for Ubuntu maintenance. I wonder if it is possible to patch
the version and release bugfix version.

-- 
Manveru
jabber: manv...@manveru.pl
     gg: 1624001
   http://www.manveru.pl

Re: LyX 1.6.7 Packages for Ubuntu

[Manveru]

2010/8/17 Pavel Sanda sa...@lyx.org:
 Rob Oakes wrote:
  Dear LyX Users and Developers,

 firstly, thanks to care about ubuntu repos. the most frequent bug report
 is the combination of lyx 1.6.5  qt-4.6 in lynx; dont know if buntu's
 policies permit this but it would be great if all buntu users got 1.6.7
 automatically updated through the online updates - i guess that regular
 crashes really debase the reputation of the package in the users eyes.

As far as I know they were allow to patch the bug only. They do not
want to change functionality and change any library dependencies. But
I think this is only available for packages actively maintained on
Launchpad for Ubuntu maintenance. I wonder if it is possible to patch
the version and release bugfix version.

-- 
Manveru
jabber: manv...@manveru.pl
     gg: 1624001
   http://www.manveru.pl

Re: LyX 1.6.7 Packages for Ubuntu

[Manveru]

2010/8/17 Pavel Sanda :
> Rob Oakes wrote:
>>  Dear LyX Users and Developers,
>
> firstly, thanks to care about ubuntu repos. the most frequent bug report
> is the combination of lyx 1.6.5 & qt-4.6 in lynx; dont know if buntu's
> policies permit this but it would be great if all buntu users got 1.6.7
> automatically updated through the online updates - i guess that regular
> crashes really debase the reputation of the package in the users eyes.

As far as I know they were allow to patch the bug only. They do not
want to change functionality and change any library dependencies. But
I think this is only available for packages actively maintained on
Launchpad for Ubuntu maintenance. I wonder if it is possible to patch
the version and release bugfix version.

-- 
Manveru
jabber: manv...@manveru.pl
     gg: 1624001
   http://www.manveru.pl

Re: LyX 1.6.7 Packages for Ubuntu

[Pavel Sanda]

Rob Oakes wrote:
  Dear LyX Users and Developers,

firstly, thanks to care about ubuntu repos. the most frequent bug report
is the combination of lyx 1.6.5  qt-4.6 in lynx; dont know if buntu's
policies permit this but it would be great if all buntu users got 1.6.7 
automatically updated through the online updates - i guess that regular
crashes really debase the reputation of the package in the users eyes.

pavel

Re: LyX 1.6.7 Packages for Ubuntu

[Pavel Sanda]

Rob Oakes wrote:
  Dear LyX Users and Developers,

firstly, thanks to care about ubuntu repos. the most frequent bug report
is the combination of lyx 1.6.5  qt-4.6 in lynx; dont know if buntu's
policies permit this but it would be great if all buntu users got 1.6.7 
automatically updated through the online updates - i guess that regular
crashes really debase the reputation of the package in the users eyes.

pavel

Re: LyX 1.6.7 Packages for Ubuntu

[Pavel Sanda]

Rob Oakes wrote:
>  Dear LyX Users and Developers,

firstly, thanks to care about ubuntu repos. the most frequent bug report
is the combination of lyx 1.6.5 & qt-4.6 in lynx; dont know if buntu's
policies permit this but it would be great if all buntu users got 1.6.7 
automatically updated through the online updates - i guess that regular
crashes really debase the reputation of the package in the users eyes.

pavel