Re: [M100] DVI help

2018-02-20 Thread Brian White
No problem of course. It's nice to think of another couple units working
and another couple people learning how something old worked and carrying it
forward another few years.

-- 
bkw



On Feb 19, 2018 9:11 PM, "Randall Kindig"  wrote:

> Brian, you are absolutely correct.  You sent me everything I possibly
> needed to understand how this should work and I managed to ignore some of
> it.
>
> I really, really appreciate all your help.
>
> I’m just pumped that both DVI’s work when for a while I thought neither
> did.
>
> I will check the disk to see if has the 200 files on it, although I don’t
> have plans to get a T200.  I had one a few years ago and sold it.
>
> Thanks again!
>
> Randy
>
> On Feb 19, 2018, at 2:42 AM, Brian White  wrote:
>
> The manual, which is on-line btw, does mention somewhere in there that the
> first step loads software from the disk to the dvi. Then the 2nd step loads
> from the dvi to the M100. It also shows the backup procedure and all kinds
> of other stuff.
>
> Also, 3 observable things do happen when the M100 is loaded successfully,
> it's just that none of them obviously look like "Everything worked, we're
> ready."
>
> 1) The M100 menu screen blanks and redraws.
>
> 2) The free memory display on the M100 menu reduces by about 5K.
>
> 3) The TV screen clears. The the Microsoft/Tandy boilerplate goes away
> leaving only a cursor.
>
> I should have thought to ask if you saw these in the first place. I did
> say "nothing happens" but that still isn't good enough because how could
> you know what counts as "something" when it's just things like that?
>
> Though, I believe this is all in the video I posted. Did I ever post a
> link here? I don't remember, maybe I only posted that to facebook...
> https://youtu.be/Mt6AmyLKkXQ
> Not wait, I did post it here because didn't you point out that it looked
> like I was using the serial port? So you saw the entire boot process. So
> you have no excuse after all :)
>
> The service manual is also on-line which describes even more about how the
> dvi works.
>
> http://www.classiccmp.org/cini/pdf/Tandy/Disk%20Video%
> 20Interface%20Manual.pdf
>
> http://www.classiccmp.org/cini/pdf/Tandy/Disk%20Video%
> 20Interface%20Service%20Manual.pdf
>
> It went similar with me. I thought I had 2 dead DVIs and 3 bad original
> system disks, Then it turned out I had 2 good dvis, 3 good original system
> disks, and merely one bad drive in one dvi. But I also had an unconfirmed
> cable I made myself too, not one anyone else claimed was correct and
> tested. I had no reason to believe I had it wired right. Now after finding
> some 360K drives on ebay and finding just enough documentation on-line to
> set the jumpers right, I have 2 fully working dvis, with 2 drives each no
> less.
>
> Now the last thing is, does your system disk contain files with 200 in the
> name, like FMT200 and BAK200 ? And if not, do you have or plan to have a
> 200? There are two versions of the system disk. One is for 100 & 102 only,
> the other is for 100, 102, & 200. If you don't have the 100/200 system disk
> I can make a copy.
>
> --
> bkw
>
> On Feb 18, 2018 6:31 PM, "Randall Kindig" 
> wrote:
>
>> Wow, I hooked up the original DVI box now that I know how all this works,
>> and since I verified the cable/M100/boot disk combination that works.
>>
>> Guess what, it works too!!
>>
>> I think what was throwing me was that when you reset the M100, the disk
>> light on the DVI doesn’t even come on most times.  You just hear a very
>> brief disk noise from it, a second or two, and that must be all it takes to
>> load the DISK BASIC.  You then go into BASIC on the M100, type SCREEN 1,1
>> and voila!
>>
>> I had originally assumed the disk drive light would come on and that it
>> would take several seconds to load DISK BASIC, so I was looking for that
>> behavior.
>>
>> I now have a preponderance of riches.  Two working DVI boxes.  I’ll
>> probably sell a fully tested system on eBay with cable, boot disk, M100,
>> DVI and recover some of the funds I spent on all this.
>>
>> Thanks to everyone who helped with this. Especially you, Brian.  I owe
>> you that beer :)
>>
>> Randy
>>
>>
>>
>> On Feb 18, 2018, at 5:45 PM, Randall Kindig 
>> wrote:
>>
>> This worked perfectly, Brian!  I now have a backup system disk and both
>> have the write-protect tab on them.
>>
>> thanks!
>>
>> By the way, the system is consistently booting now.  Just had to shake
>> the dust off of it, I guess.
>>
>> Still would like to see if I can get the other DVI box working.
>>
>> Randy
>>
>>
>> On Feb 17, 2018, at 10:24 PM, Brian White  wrote:
>>
>> The easiest way is using the backup program on the system disk.
>>
>> It's possible but I think it's probably more difficult with a modern pc.
>> I don't think just any modern floppy controller chip can do it, and you
>> need a 360K drive too, ideally, not 

Re: [M100] DVI help

2018-02-19 Thread Randall Kindig
Brian, you are absolutely correct.  You sent me everything I possibly needed to 
understand how this should work and I managed to ignore some of it.

I really, really appreciate all your help.

I’m just pumped that both DVI’s work when for a while I thought neither did.

I will check the disk to see if has the 200 files on it, although I don’t have 
plans to get a T200.  I had one a few years ago and sold it.

Thanks again!

Randy
> On Feb 19, 2018, at 2:42 AM, Brian White  wrote:
> 
> The manual, which is on-line btw, does mention somewhere in there that the 
> first step loads software from the disk to the dvi. Then the 2nd step loads 
> from the dvi to the M100. It also shows the backup procedure and all kinds of 
> other stuff.
> 
> Also, 3 observable things do happen when the M100 is loaded successfully, 
> it's just that none of them obviously look like "Everything worked, we're 
> ready."
> 
> 1) The M100 menu screen blanks and redraws.
> 
> 2) The free memory display on the M100 menu reduces by about 5K.
> 
> 3) The TV screen clears. The the Microsoft/Tandy boilerplate goes away 
> leaving only a cursor.
> 
> I should have thought to ask if you saw these in the first place. I did say 
> "nothing happens" but that still isn't good enough because how could you know 
> what counts as "something" when it's just things like that?
> 
> Though, I believe this is all in the video I posted. Did I ever post a link 
> here? I don't remember, maybe I only posted that to facebook...
> https://youtu.be/Mt6AmyLKkXQ 
> Not wait, I did post it here because didn't you point out that it looked like 
> I was using the serial port? So you saw the entire boot process. So you have 
> no excuse after all :)
> 
> The service manual is also on-line which describes even more about how the 
> dvi works.
> 
> http://www.classiccmp.org/cini/pdf/Tandy/Disk%20Video%20Interface%20Manual.pdf
>  
> 
> 
> http://www.classiccmp.org/cini/pdf/Tandy/Disk%20Video%20Interface%20Service%20Manual.pdf
>  
> 
> 
> It went similar with me. I thought I had 2 dead DVIs and 3 bad original 
> system disks, Then it turned out I had 2 good dvis, 3 good original system 
> disks, and merely one bad drive in one dvi. But I also had an unconfirmed 
> cable I made myself too, not one anyone else claimed was correct and tested. 
> I had no reason to believe I had it wired right. Now after finding some 360K 
> drives on ebay and finding just enough documentation on-line to set the 
> jumpers right, I have 2 fully working dvis, with 2 drives each no less.
> 
> Now the last thing is, does your system disk contain files with 200 in the 
> name, like FMT200 and BAK200 ? And if not, do you have or plan to have a 200? 
> There are two versions of the system disk. One is for 100 & 102 only, the 
> other is for 100, 102, & 200. If you don't have the 100/200 system disk I can 
> make a copy.
> 
> -- 
> bkw
> 
> On Feb 18, 2018 6:31 PM, "Randall Kindig"  > wrote:
> Wow, I hooked up the original DVI box now that I know how all this works, and 
> since I verified the cable/M100/boot disk combination that works.
> 
> Guess what, it works too!!
> 
> I think what was throwing me was that when you reset the M100, the disk light 
> on the DVI doesn’t even come on most times.  You just hear a very brief disk 
> noise from it, a second or two, and that must be all it takes to load the 
> DISK BASIC.  You then go into BASIC on the M100, type SCREEN 1,1 and voila!
> 
> I had originally assumed the disk drive light would come on and that it would 
> take several seconds to load DISK BASIC, so I was looking for that behavior.
> 
> I now have a preponderance of riches.  Two working DVI boxes.  I’ll probably 
> sell a fully tested system on eBay with cable, boot disk, M100, DVI and 
> recover some of the funds I spent on all this.
> 
> Thanks to everyone who helped with this. Especially you, Brian.  I owe you 
> that beer :)
> 
> Randy
> 
> 
> 
>> On Feb 18, 2018, at 5:45 PM, Randall Kindig > > wrote:
>> 
>> This worked perfectly, Brian!  I now have a backup system disk and both have 
>> the write-protect tab on them.
>> 
>> thanks!
>> 
>> By the way, the system is consistently booting now.  Just had to shake the 
>> dust off of it, I guess.
>> 
>> Still would like to see if I can get the other DVI box working.
>> 
>> Randy
>> 
>> 
>>> On Feb 17, 2018, at 10:24 PM, Brian White >> > wrote:
>>> 
>>> The easiest way is using the backup program on the system disk.
>>> 
>>> It's possible but I think it's probably more difficult with a modern pc. I 
>>> don't think just any modern floppy controller chip 

Re: [M100] DVI help

2018-02-18 Thread Brian White
The manual, which is on-line btw, does mention somewhere in there that the
first step loads software from the disk to the dvi. Then the 2nd step loads
from the dvi to the M100. It also shows the backup procedure and all kinds
of other stuff.

Also, 3 observable things do happen when the M100 is loaded successfully,
it's just that none of them obviously look like "Everything worked, we're
ready."

1) The M100 menu screen blanks and redraws.

2) The free memory display on the M100 menu reduces by about 5K.

3) The TV screen clears. The the Microsoft/Tandy boilerplate goes away
leaving only a cursor.

I should have thought to ask if you saw these in the first place. I did say
"nothing happens" but that still isn't good enough because how could you
know what counts as "something" when it's just things like that?

Though, I believe this is all in the video I posted. Did I ever post a link
here? I don't remember, maybe I only posted that to facebook...
https://youtu.be/Mt6AmyLKkXQ
Not wait, I did post it here because didn't you point out that it looked
like I was using the serial port? So you saw the entire boot process. So
you have no excuse after all :)

The service manual is also on-line which describes even more about how the
dvi works.

http://www.classiccmp.org/cini/pdf/Tandy/Disk%20Video%20Interface%20Manual.pdf

http://www.classiccmp.org/cini/pdf/Tandy/Disk%20Video%20Interface%20Service%20Manual.pdf

It went similar with me. I thought I had 2 dead DVIs and 3 bad original
system disks, Then it turned out I had 2 good dvis, 3 good original system
disks, and merely one bad drive in one dvi. But I also had an unconfirmed
cable I made myself too, not one anyone else claimed was correct and
tested. I had no reason to believe I had it wired right. Now after finding
some 360K drives on ebay and finding just enough documentation on-line to
set the jumpers right, I have 2 fully working dvis, with 2 drives each no
less.

Now the last thing is, does your system disk contain files with 200 in the
name, like FMT200 and BAK200 ? And if not, do you have or plan to have a
200? There are two versions of the system disk. One is for 100 & 102 only,
the other is for 100, 102, & 200. If you don't have the 100/200 system disk
I can make a copy.

-- 
bkw

On Feb 18, 2018 6:31 PM, "Randall Kindig"  wrote:

> Wow, I hooked up the original DVI box now that I know how all this works,
> and since I verified the cable/M100/boot disk combination that works.
>
> Guess what, it works too!!
>
> I think what was throwing me was that when you reset the M100, the disk
> light on the DVI doesn’t even come on most times.  You just hear a very
> brief disk noise from it, a second or two, and that must be all it takes to
> load the DISK BASIC.  You then go into BASIC on the M100, type SCREEN 1,1
> and voila!
>
> I had originally assumed the disk drive light would come on and that it
> would take several seconds to load DISK BASIC, so I was looking for that
> behavior.
>
> I now have a preponderance of riches.  Two working DVI boxes.  I’ll
> probably sell a fully tested system on eBay with cable, boot disk, M100,
> DVI and recover some of the funds I spent on all this.
>
> Thanks to everyone who helped with this. Especially you, Brian.  I owe you
> that beer :)
>
> Randy
>
>
>
> On Feb 18, 2018, at 5:45 PM, Randall Kindig 
> wrote:
>
> This worked perfectly, Brian!  I now have a backup system disk and both
> have the write-protect tab on them.
>
> thanks!
>
> By the way, the system is consistently booting now.  Just had to shake the
> dust off of it, I guess.
>
> Still would like to see if I can get the other DVI box working.
>
> Randy
>
>
> On Feb 17, 2018, at 10:24 PM, Brian White  wrote:
>
> The easiest way is using the backup program on the system disk.
>
> It's possible but I think it's probably more difficult with a modern pc. I
> don't think just any modern floppy controller chip can do it, and you need
> a 360K drive too, ideally, not the more common 1.2M drive. Then you also
> need special formatter software, which I don't know how available that is
> today, and don't know if it would work from dosbox or something. Might have
> to make a freedos bootable usb stick just to run the disk writing util.
>
> Steven Adolf has some notes on all that on club100 in the member uploads.
>
> It's much simpler to just use "BACKUP.SNG" in your case right from the
> system disk.
>
> You would boot the dvi normally, then go into basic and:
>
> RUN"0:FORMAT"
>
> Then follow the prompts to remove the system disk and put in a disk to be
> blanked and formatted.
>
> Then put the system disk back in and:
>
> NEW
> RUN"0:BACKUP.SNG"
>
> Then follow the prompts to switch back and forth putting the new disk in,
> then the system disk, then the new one again, etc, until it's over. Choose
> All when it asks All or System.
>
> I would definitely put tape over the write-protect notch on your 

Re: [M100] DVI help

2018-02-18 Thread Willard Goosey
On Sun, 18 Feb 2018 21:02:15 + (UTC)
Joan Leach  wrote:

> Randy, I'm not sure, but I wonder if an old Central Point Copy2PC
> Option Board could make a copy of that boot disk. Anyone back in the
> try it? Joan in Reno

There's nothing on the DVI disks that are that exotic... Single-sided 40
track, 18 sector/track, 256byte/sector. There are Teledisk images on
Club 100 (I think).

At one point I was messing around with them on the CoCo. They are
almost the same file-system as CoCo Disk BASIC (Microsoft FAT-8). With
CoCo Disk BASIC patched for 40 tracks, it would be aprox. one
weekend's programming to have a BASIC util to read/write the DVI
disks... It would take a bit longer under OS-9 (I have a DECB program
for reading CP/M disks, it's not that hard to replace the filesystem
parts.)

Unfortunately I don't have a DVI, so I left the project at "it could
be done". :-(

 
Willard
-- 
Willard Goosey  goo...@sdc.org
Socorro, New Mexico, USA
I search my heart and find Cimmeria, land of Darkness and the Night.
  -- R.E. Howard


Re: [M100] DVI help

2018-02-18 Thread Gregory McGill
probably had to warm up caps.. when they get old.. sometimes it takes a bit.

Greg

On Sun, Feb 18, 2018 at 2:45 PM, Randall Kindig 
wrote:

> This worked perfectly, Brian!  I now have a backup system disk and both
> have the write-protect tab on them.
>
> thanks!
>
> By the way, the system is consistently booting now.  Just had to shake the
> dust off of it, I guess.
>
> Still would like to see if I can get the other DVI box working.
>
> Randy
>
>
>
> On Feb 17, 2018, at 10:24 PM, Brian White  wrote:
>
> The easiest way is using the backup program on the system disk.
>
> It's possible but I think it's probably more difficult with a modern pc. I
> don't think just any modern floppy controller chip can do it, and you need
> a 360K drive too, ideally, not the more common 1.2M drive. Then you also
> need special formatter software, which I don't know how available that is
> today, and don't know if it would work from dosbox or something. Might have
> to make a freedos bootable usb stick just to run the disk writing util.
>
> Steven Adolf has some notes on all that on club100 in the member uploads.
>
> It's much simpler to just use "BACKUP.SNG" in your case right from the
> system disk.
>
> You would boot the dvi normally, then go into basic and:
>
> RUN"0:FORMAT"
>
> Then follow the prompts to remove the system disk and put in a disk to be
> blanked and formatted.
>
> Then put the system disk back in and:
>
> NEW
> RUN"0:BACKUP.SNG"
>
> Then follow the prompts to switch back and forth putting the new disk in,
> then the system disk, then the new one again, etc, until it's over. Choose
> All when it asks All or System.
>
> I would definitely put tape over the write-protect notch on your one
> remaining working system disk before any of this!
>
> --
> bkw
>
> On Feb 17, 2018 9:19 PM, "Randall Kindig" 
> wrote:
>
>> I will check that, Brian.  Thanks for your help.
>>
>> My other question is around the boot disk.  I was sent 2 boot disks with
>> the cable, but now only 1 seems to work.  I’m worried now only having one
>> working disk.
>>
>> How do I back it up?  Is there a way to do that with the DVI?  Can I
>> create one in a different disk drive, like the drive in the TRS-80 Model 4P?
>>
>> thanks
>>
>> Randy
>>
>> On Feb 17, 2018, at 9:15 PM, Brian White  wrote:
>>
>> This sounds consistent with Fugu's idea about old capacitors. It sounds
>> like both dvi's are marginal, but one is slightly better than the other,
>> and one of your M100's is slightly better than the other, and so with the
>> two best ones combined, it just barely works, sometimes.
>>
>> I would check that voltage as he described and I expanded.
>>
>> On Feb 17, 2018 8:37 PM, "Randall Kindig" 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> SUCCESS!
>>>
>>> Per John’s suggestion (and was thinking the same thing when he suggested
>>> it) I now have a working system.  I started trying different combinations
>>> of DVI/M100/cable (of which I have 2 each).
>>>
>>> DVI #2, M100 #2, Cable #2, no luck
>>>
>>> So I swapped out M100 #2 (32K) for M100 #1 (24K/REX), and it worked!
>>>
>>> It’s still a little finicky and doesn’t always work, but has worked
>>> multiple times now.  I don’t know if there’s anything I can do to “tune” it
>>> so it’s more consistent, but I”m pumped that I finally got it to work.
>>>
>>> I had tried this M100/cable combination with DVI #1, so I’m wondering if
>>> there’s an issue with that DVI.  There also must be an issue of some sort
>>> with M100 #1 as the current DVI/cable setup didn’t work with that machine,
>>> but does with the other.
>>>
>>> This sure seems like a finicky setup.  I would love to see a modern DVI
>>> replacement, perhaps with SD card for disk and video output, that would
>>> take up far less desk space and be more robust.
>>>
>>> Thanks all!  Any other suggestions for troubleshooting why the M100 (#2)
>>> doesn’t work with this and also why DVI #1 doesn’t work with either M100
>>> would be much appreciated.
>>>
>>> Randy
>>>
>>>
>>> > On Feb 17, 2018, at 4:22 PM, Randy Kindig 
>>> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > I was just thinking the same thing John.  It’s worth a try.
>>> >
>>> > Thanks
>>> >
>>> > Sent from my iPhone
>>> >
>>> >> On Feb 17, 2018, at 3:07 PM, John R. Hogerhuis 
>>> wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> Btw it occurs to me that there are 16 permutations possible there.
>>> Not so high that you couldn’t do all 16 and see if you ever get different
>>> results in any of 16 if you haven’t already.
>>> >>
>>> >> — John.
>>>
>>>
>>
>


Re: [M100] DVI help

2018-02-18 Thread Randall Kindig
This worked perfectly, Brian!  I now have a backup system disk and both have 
the write-protect tab on them.

thanks!

By the way, the system is consistently booting now.  Just had to shake the dust 
off of it, I guess.

Still would like to see if I can get the other DVI box working.

Randy


> On Feb 17, 2018, at 10:24 PM, Brian White  wrote:
> 
> The easiest way is using the backup program on the system disk.
> 
> It's possible but I think it's probably more difficult with a modern pc. I 
> don't think just any modern floppy controller chip can do it, and you need a 
> 360K drive too, ideally, not the more common 1.2M drive. Then you also need 
> special formatter software, which I don't know how available that is today, 
> and don't know if it would work from dosbox or something. Might have to make 
> a freedos bootable usb stick just to run the disk writing util.
> 
> Steven Adolf has some notes on all that on club100 in the member uploads.
> 
> It's much simpler to just use "BACKUP.SNG" in your case right from the system 
> disk.
> 
> You would boot the dvi normally, then go into basic and:
> 
> RUN"0:FORMAT"
> 
> Then follow the prompts to remove the system disk and put in a disk to be 
> blanked and formatted.
> 
> Then put the system disk back in and:
> 
> NEW
> RUN"0:BACKUP.SNG"
> 
> Then follow the prompts to switch back and forth putting the new disk in, 
> then the system disk, then the new one again, etc, until it's over. Choose 
> All when it asks All or System.
> 
> I would definitely put tape over the write-protect notch on your one 
> remaining working system disk before any of this!
> 
> -- 
> bkw
> 
> On Feb 17, 2018 9:19 PM, "Randall Kindig"  > wrote:
> I will check that, Brian.  Thanks for your help.
> 
> My other question is around the boot disk.  I was sent 2 boot disks with the 
> cable, but now only 1 seems to work.  I’m worried now only having one working 
> disk.
> 
> How do I back it up?  Is there a way to do that with the DVI?  Can I create 
> one in a different disk drive, like the drive in the TRS-80 Model 4P?
> 
> thanks
> 
> Randy
>> On Feb 17, 2018, at 9:15 PM, Brian White > > wrote:
>> 
>> This sounds consistent with Fugu's idea about old capacitors. It sounds like 
>> both dvi's are marginal, but one is slightly better than the other, and one 
>> of your M100's is slightly better than the other, and so with the two best 
>> ones combined, it just barely works, sometimes.
>> 
>> I would check that voltage as he described and I expanded.
>> 
>> On Feb 17, 2018 8:37 PM, "Randall Kindig" > > wrote:
>> SUCCESS!
>> 
>> Per John’s suggestion (and was thinking the same thing when he suggested it) 
>> I now have a working system.  I started trying different combinations of 
>> DVI/M100/cable (of which I have 2 each).
>> 
>> DVI #2, M100 #2, Cable #2, no luck
>> 
>> So I swapped out M100 #2 (32K) for M100 #1 (24K/REX), and it worked!
>> 
>> It’s still a little finicky and doesn’t always work, but has worked multiple 
>> times now.  I don’t know if there’s anything I can do to “tune” it so it’s 
>> more consistent, but I”m pumped that I finally got it to work.
>> 
>> I had tried this M100/cable combination with DVI #1, so I’m wondering if 
>> there’s an issue with that DVI.  There also must be an issue of some sort 
>> with M100 #1 as the current DVI/cable setup didn’t work with that machine, 
>> but does with the other.
>> 
>> This sure seems like a finicky setup.  I would love to see a modern DVI 
>> replacement, perhaps with SD card for disk and video output, that would take 
>> up far less desk space and be more robust.
>> 
>> Thanks all!  Any other suggestions for troubleshooting why the M100 (#2) 
>> doesn’t work with this and also why DVI #1 doesn’t work with either M100 
>> would be much appreciated.
>> 
>> Randy
>> 
>> 
>> > On Feb 17, 2018, at 4:22 PM, Randy Kindig > > > wrote:
>> >
>> > I was just thinking the same thing John.  It’s worth a try.
>> >
>> > Thanks
>> >
>> > Sent from my iPhone
>> >
>> >> On Feb 17, 2018, at 3:07 PM, John R. Hogerhuis > >> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Btw it occurs to me that there are 16 permutations possible there. Not so 
>> >> high that you couldn’t do all 16 and see if you ever get different 
>> >> results in any of 16 if you haven’t already.
>> >>
>> >> — John.
>> 
> 



Re: [M100] DVI help

2018-02-18 Thread Joan Leach
Randy, I'm not sure, but I wonder if an old Central Point Copy2PC Option Board 
could make a copy of that boot disk. Anyone back in the try it?
Joan in Reno

  From: Randall Kindig <randall.kin...@gmail.com>
 To: m...@bitchin100.com 
 Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2018 6:20 PM
 Subject: Re: [M100] DVI help
   
I will check that, Brian.  Thanks for your help.
My other question is around the boot disk.  I was sent 2 boot disks with the 
cable, but now only 1 seems to work.  I’m worried now only having one working 
disk.
How do I back it up?  Is there a way to do that with the DVI?  Can I create one 
in a different disk drive, like the drive in the TRS-80 Model 4P?
thanks
Randy

On Feb 17, 2018, at 9:15 PM, Brian White <bw.al...@gmail.com> wrote:
This sounds consistent with Fugu's idea about old capacitors. It sounds like 
both dvi's are marginal, but one is slightly better than the other, and one of 
your M100's is slightly better than the other, and so with the two best ones 
combined, it just barely works, sometimes.
I would check that voltage as he described and I expanded.
On Feb 17, 2018 8:37 PM, "Randall Kindig" <randall.kin...@gmail.com> wrote:

SUCCESS!

Per John’s suggestion (and was thinking the same thing when he suggested it) I 
now have a working system.  I started trying different combinations of 
DVI/M100/cable (of which I have 2 each).

DVI #2, M100 #2, Cable #2, no luck

So I swapped out M100 #2 (32K) for M100 #1 (24K/REX), and it worked!

It’s still a little finicky and doesn’t always work, but has worked multiple 
times now.  I don’t know if there’s anything I can do to “tune” it so it’s more 
consistent, but I”m pumped that I finally got it to work.

I had tried this M100/cable combination with DVI #1, so I’m wondering if 
there’s an issue with that DVI.  There also must be an issue of some sort with 
M100 #1 as the current DVI/cable setup didn’t work with that machine, but does 
with the other.

This sure seems like a finicky setup.  I would love to see a modern DVI 
replacement, perhaps with SD card for disk and video output, that would take up 
far less desk space and be more robust.

Thanks all!  Any other suggestions for troubleshooting why the M100 (#2) 
doesn’t work with this and also why DVI #1 doesn’t work with either M100 would 
be much appreciated.

Randy


> On Feb 17, 2018, at 4:22 PM, Randy Kindig <randall.kin...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I was just thinking the same thing John.  It’s worth a try.
>
> Thanks
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Feb 17, 2018, at 3:07 PM, John R. Hogerhuis <jho...@pobox.com> wrote:
>>
>> Btw it occurs to me that there are 16 permutations possible there. Not so 
>> high that you couldn’t do all 16 and see if you ever get different results 
>> in any of 16 if you haven’t already.
>>
>> — John.






   

Re: [M100] DVI help

2018-02-17 Thread Randall Kindig
Thanks again, Brian.

I’ll try these steps.  It will make me feel better to get a backup made.

Randy
> On Feb 17, 2018, at 10:26 PM, Brian White  wrote:
> 
> Also make sure your new disks are double density, 360K, not high density, 
> 1.2M.
> 
> On Feb 17, 2018 10:24 PM, "Brian White"  > wrote:
> The easiest way is using the backup program on the system disk.
> 
> It's possible but I think it's probably more difficult with a modern pc. I 
> don't think just any modern floppy controller chip can do it, and you need a 
> 360K drive too, ideally, not the more common 1.2M drive. Then you also need 
> special formatter software, which I don't know how available that is today, 
> and don't know if it would work from dosbox or something. Might have to make 
> a freedos bootable usb stick just to run the disk writing util.
> 
> Steven Adolf has some notes on all that on club100 in the member uploads.
> 
> It's much simpler to just use "BACKUP.SNG" in your case right from the system 
> disk.
> 
> You would boot the dvi normally, then go into basic and:
> 
> RUN"0:FORMAT"
> 
> Then follow the prompts to remove the system disk and put in a disk to be 
> blanked and formatted.
> 
> Then put the system disk back in and:
> 
> NEW
> RUN"0:BACKUP.SNG"
> 
> Then follow the prompts to switch back and forth putting the new disk in, 
> then the system disk, then the new one again, etc, until it's over. Choose 
> All when it asks All or System.
> 
> I would definitely put tape over the write-protect notch on your one 
> remaining working system disk before any of this!
> 
> -- 
> bkw
> 
> On Feb 17, 2018 9:19 PM, "Randall Kindig"  > wrote:
> I will check that, Brian.  Thanks for your help.
> 
> My other question is around the boot disk.  I was sent 2 boot disks with the 
> cable, but now only 1 seems to work.  I’m worried now only having one working 
> disk.
> 
> How do I back it up?  Is there a way to do that with the DVI?  Can I create 
> one in a different disk drive, like the drive in the TRS-80 Model 4P?
> 
> thanks
> 
> Randy
>> On Feb 17, 2018, at 9:15 PM, Brian White > > wrote:
>> 
>> This sounds consistent with Fugu's idea about old capacitors. It sounds like 
>> both dvi's are marginal, but one is slightly better than the other, and one 
>> of your M100's is slightly better than the other, and so with the two best 
>> ones combined, it just barely works, sometimes.
>> 
>> I would check that voltage as he described and I expanded.
>> 
>> On Feb 17, 2018 8:37 PM, "Randall Kindig" > > wrote:
>> SUCCESS!
>> 
>> Per John’s suggestion (and was thinking the same thing when he suggested it) 
>> I now have a working system.  I started trying different combinations of 
>> DVI/M100/cable (of which I have 2 each).
>> 
>> DVI #2, M100 #2, Cable #2, no luck
>> 
>> So I swapped out M100 #2 (32K) for M100 #1 (24K/REX), and it worked!
>> 
>> It’s still a little finicky and doesn’t always work, but has worked multiple 
>> times now.  I don’t know if there’s anything I can do to “tune” it so it’s 
>> more consistent, but I”m pumped that I finally got it to work.
>> 
>> I had tried this M100/cable combination with DVI #1, so I’m wondering if 
>> there’s an issue with that DVI.  There also must be an issue of some sort 
>> with M100 #1 as the current DVI/cable setup didn’t work with that machine, 
>> but does with the other.
>> 
>> This sure seems like a finicky setup.  I would love to see a modern DVI 
>> replacement, perhaps with SD card for disk and video output, that would take 
>> up far less desk space and be more robust.
>> 
>> Thanks all!  Any other suggestions for troubleshooting why the M100 (#2) 
>> doesn’t work with this and also why DVI #1 doesn’t work with either M100 
>> would be much appreciated.
>> 
>> Randy
>> 
>> 
>> > On Feb 17, 2018, at 4:22 PM, Randy Kindig > > > wrote:
>> >
>> > I was just thinking the same thing John.  It’s worth a try.
>> >
>> > Thanks
>> >
>> > Sent from my iPhone
>> >
>> >> On Feb 17, 2018, at 3:07 PM, John R. Hogerhuis > >> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Btw it occurs to me that there are 16 permutations possible there. Not so 
>> >> high that you couldn’t do all 16 and see if you ever get different 
>> >> results in any of 16 if you haven’t already.
>> >>
>> >> — John.
>> 
> 
> 



Re: [M100] DVI help

2018-02-17 Thread Brian White
Also make sure your new disks are double density, 360K, not high density,
1.2M.

On Feb 17, 2018 10:24 PM, "Brian White"  wrote:

The easiest way is using the backup program on the system disk.

It's possible but I think it's probably more difficult with a modern pc. I
don't think just any modern floppy controller chip can do it, and you need
a 360K drive too, ideally, not the more common 1.2M drive. Then you also
need special formatter software, which I don't know how available that is
today, and don't know if it would work from dosbox or something. Might have
to make a freedos bootable usb stick just to run the disk writing util.

Steven Adolf has some notes on all that on club100 in the member uploads.

It's much simpler to just use "BACKUP.SNG" in your case right from the
system disk.

You would boot the dvi normally, then go into basic and:

RUN"0:FORMAT"

Then follow the prompts to remove the system disk and put in a disk to be
blanked and formatted.

Then put the system disk back in and:

NEW
RUN"0:BACKUP.SNG"

Then follow the prompts to switch back and forth putting the new disk in,
then the system disk, then the new one again, etc, until it's over. Choose
All when it asks All or System.

I would definitely put tape over the write-protect notch on your one
remaining working system disk before any of this!

-- 
bkw

On Feb 17, 2018 9:19 PM, "Randall Kindig"  wrote:

> I will check that, Brian.  Thanks for your help.
>
> My other question is around the boot disk.  I was sent 2 boot disks with
> the cable, but now only 1 seems to work.  I’m worried now only having one
> working disk.
>
> How do I back it up?  Is there a way to do that with the DVI?  Can I
> create one in a different disk drive, like the drive in the TRS-80 Model 4P?
>
> thanks
>
> Randy
>
> On Feb 17, 2018, at 9:15 PM, Brian White  wrote:
>
> This sounds consistent with Fugu's idea about old capacitors. It sounds
> like both dvi's are marginal, but one is slightly better than the other,
> and one of your M100's is slightly better than the other, and so with the
> two best ones combined, it just barely works, sometimes.
>
> I would check that voltage as he described and I expanded.
>
> On Feb 17, 2018 8:37 PM, "Randall Kindig" 
> wrote:
>
>> SUCCESS!
>>
>> Per John’s suggestion (and was thinking the same thing when he suggested
>> it) I now have a working system.  I started trying different combinations
>> of DVI/M100/cable (of which I have 2 each).
>>
>> DVI #2, M100 #2, Cable #2, no luck
>>
>> So I swapped out M100 #2 (32K) for M100 #1 (24K/REX), and it worked!
>>
>> It’s still a little finicky and doesn’t always work, but has worked
>> multiple times now.  I don’t know if there’s anything I can do to “tune” it
>> so it’s more consistent, but I”m pumped that I finally got it to work.
>>
>> I had tried this M100/cable combination with DVI #1, so I’m wondering if
>> there’s an issue with that DVI.  There also must be an issue of some sort
>> with M100 #1 as the current DVI/cable setup didn’t work with that machine,
>> but does with the other.
>>
>> This sure seems like a finicky setup.  I would love to see a modern DVI
>> replacement, perhaps with SD card for disk and video output, that would
>> take up far less desk space and be more robust.
>>
>> Thanks all!  Any other suggestions for troubleshooting why the M100 (#2)
>> doesn’t work with this and also why DVI #1 doesn’t work with either M100
>> would be much appreciated.
>>
>> Randy
>>
>>
>> > On Feb 17, 2018, at 4:22 PM, Randy Kindig 
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > I was just thinking the same thing John.  It’s worth a try.
>> >
>> > Thanks
>> >
>> > Sent from my iPhone
>> >
>> >> On Feb 17, 2018, at 3:07 PM, John R. Hogerhuis 
>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Btw it occurs to me that there are 16 permutations possible there. Not
>> so high that you couldn’t do all 16 and see if you ever get different
>> results in any of 16 if you haven’t already.
>> >>
>> >> — John.
>>
>>
>


Re: [M100] DVI help

2018-02-17 Thread Brian White
The easiest way is using the backup program on the system disk.

It's possible but I think it's probably more difficult with a modern pc. I
don't think just any modern floppy controller chip can do it, and you need
a 360K drive too, ideally, not the more common 1.2M drive. Then you also
need special formatter software, which I don't know how available that is
today, and don't know if it would work from dosbox or something. Might have
to make a freedos bootable usb stick just to run the disk writing util.

Steven Adolf has some notes on all that on club100 in the member uploads.

It's much simpler to just use "BACKUP.SNG" in your case right from the
system disk.

You would boot the dvi normally, then go into basic and:

RUN"0:FORMAT"

Then follow the prompts to remove the system disk and put in a disk to be
blanked and formatted.

Then put the system disk back in and:

NEW
RUN"0:BACKUP.SNG"

Then follow the prompts to switch back and forth putting the new disk in,
then the system disk, then the new one again, etc, until it's over. Choose
All when it asks All or System.

I would definitely put tape over the write-protect notch on your one
remaining working system disk before any of this!

-- 
bkw

On Feb 17, 2018 9:19 PM, "Randall Kindig"  wrote:

> I will check that, Brian.  Thanks for your help.
>
> My other question is around the boot disk.  I was sent 2 boot disks with
> the cable, but now only 1 seems to work.  I’m worried now only having one
> working disk.
>
> How do I back it up?  Is there a way to do that with the DVI?  Can I
> create one in a different disk drive, like the drive in the TRS-80 Model 4P?
>
> thanks
>
> Randy
>
> On Feb 17, 2018, at 9:15 PM, Brian White  wrote:
>
> This sounds consistent with Fugu's idea about old capacitors. It sounds
> like both dvi's are marginal, but one is slightly better than the other,
> and one of your M100's is slightly better than the other, and so with the
> two best ones combined, it just barely works, sometimes.
>
> I would check that voltage as he described and I expanded.
>
> On Feb 17, 2018 8:37 PM, "Randall Kindig" 
> wrote:
>
>> SUCCESS!
>>
>> Per John’s suggestion (and was thinking the same thing when he suggested
>> it) I now have a working system.  I started trying different combinations
>> of DVI/M100/cable (of which I have 2 each).
>>
>> DVI #2, M100 #2, Cable #2, no luck
>>
>> So I swapped out M100 #2 (32K) for M100 #1 (24K/REX), and it worked!
>>
>> It’s still a little finicky and doesn’t always work, but has worked
>> multiple times now.  I don’t know if there’s anything I can do to “tune” it
>> so it’s more consistent, but I”m pumped that I finally got it to work.
>>
>> I had tried this M100/cable combination with DVI #1, so I’m wondering if
>> there’s an issue with that DVI.  There also must be an issue of some sort
>> with M100 #1 as the current DVI/cable setup didn’t work with that machine,
>> but does with the other.
>>
>> This sure seems like a finicky setup.  I would love to see a modern DVI
>> replacement, perhaps with SD card for disk and video output, that would
>> take up far less desk space and be more robust.
>>
>> Thanks all!  Any other suggestions for troubleshooting why the M100 (#2)
>> doesn’t work with this and also why DVI #1 doesn’t work with either M100
>> would be much appreciated.
>>
>> Randy
>>
>>
>> > On Feb 17, 2018, at 4:22 PM, Randy Kindig 
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > I was just thinking the same thing John.  It’s worth a try.
>> >
>> > Thanks
>> >
>> > Sent from my iPhone
>> >
>> >> On Feb 17, 2018, at 3:07 PM, John R. Hogerhuis 
>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Btw it occurs to me that there are 16 permutations possible there. Not
>> so high that you couldn’t do all 16 and see if you ever get different
>> results in any of 16 if you haven’t already.
>> >>
>> >> — John.
>>
>>
>


Re: [M100] DVI help

2018-02-17 Thread Randall Kindig
I will check that, Brian.  Thanks for your help.

My other question is around the boot disk.  I was sent 2 boot disks with the 
cable, but now only 1 seems to work.  I’m worried now only having one working 
disk.

How do I back it up?  Is there a way to do that with the DVI?  Can I create one 
in a different disk drive, like the drive in the TRS-80 Model 4P?

thanks

Randy
> On Feb 17, 2018, at 9:15 PM, Brian White  wrote:
> 
> This sounds consistent with Fugu's idea about old capacitors. It sounds like 
> both dvi's are marginal, but one is slightly better than the other, and one 
> of your M100's is slightly better than the other, and so with the two best 
> ones combined, it just barely works, sometimes.
> 
> I would check that voltage as he described and I expanded.
> 
> On Feb 17, 2018 8:37 PM, "Randall Kindig"  > wrote:
> SUCCESS!
> 
> Per John’s suggestion (and was thinking the same thing when he suggested it) 
> I now have a working system.  I started trying different combinations of 
> DVI/M100/cable (of which I have 2 each).
> 
> DVI #2, M100 #2, Cable #2, no luck
> 
> So I swapped out M100 #2 (32K) for M100 #1 (24K/REX), and it worked!
> 
> It’s still a little finicky and doesn’t always work, but has worked multiple 
> times now.  I don’t know if there’s anything I can do to “tune” it so it’s 
> more consistent, but I”m pumped that I finally got it to work.
> 
> I had tried this M100/cable combination with DVI #1, so I’m wondering if 
> there’s an issue with that DVI.  There also must be an issue of some sort 
> with M100 #1 as the current DVI/cable setup didn’t work with that machine, 
> but does with the other.
> 
> This sure seems like a finicky setup.  I would love to see a modern DVI 
> replacement, perhaps with SD card for disk and video output, that would take 
> up far less desk space and be more robust.
> 
> Thanks all!  Any other suggestions for troubleshooting why the M100 (#2) 
> doesn’t work with this and also why DVI #1 doesn’t work with either M100 
> would be much appreciated.
> 
> Randy
> 
> 
> > On Feb 17, 2018, at 4:22 PM, Randy Kindig  > > wrote:
> >
> > I was just thinking the same thing John.  It’s worth a try.
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> >> On Feb 17, 2018, at 3:07 PM, John R. Hogerhuis  >> > wrote:
> >>
> >> Btw it occurs to me that there are 16 permutations possible there. Not so 
> >> high that you couldn’t do all 16 and see if you ever get different results 
> >> in any of 16 if you haven’t already.
> >>
> >> — John.
> 



Re: [M100] DVI help

2018-02-17 Thread Brian White
This sounds consistent with Fugu's idea about old capacitors. It sounds
like both dvi's are marginal, but one is slightly better than the other,
and one of your M100's is slightly better than the other, and so with the
two best ones combined, it just barely works, sometimes.

I would check that voltage as he described and I expanded.

On Feb 17, 2018 8:37 PM, "Randall Kindig"  wrote:

> SUCCESS!
>
> Per John’s suggestion (and was thinking the same thing when he suggested
> it) I now have a working system.  I started trying different combinations
> of DVI/M100/cable (of which I have 2 each).
>
> DVI #2, M100 #2, Cable #2, no luck
>
> So I swapped out M100 #2 (32K) for M100 #1 (24K/REX), and it worked!
>
> It’s still a little finicky and doesn’t always work, but has worked
> multiple times now.  I don’t know if there’s anything I can do to “tune” it
> so it’s more consistent, but I”m pumped that I finally got it to work.
>
> I had tried this M100/cable combination with DVI #1, so I’m wondering if
> there’s an issue with that DVI.  There also must be an issue of some sort
> with M100 #1 as the current DVI/cable setup didn’t work with that machine,
> but does with the other.
>
> This sure seems like a finicky setup.  I would love to see a modern DVI
> replacement, perhaps with SD card for disk and video output, that would
> take up far less desk space and be more robust.
>
> Thanks all!  Any other suggestions for troubleshooting why the M100 (#2)
> doesn’t work with this and also why DVI #1 doesn’t work with either M100
> would be much appreciated.
>
> Randy
>
>
> > On Feb 17, 2018, at 4:22 PM, Randy Kindig 
> wrote:
> >
> > I was just thinking the same thing John.  It’s worth a try.
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> >> On Feb 17, 2018, at 3:07 PM, John R. Hogerhuis 
> wrote:
> >>
> >> Btw it occurs to me that there are 16 permutations possible there. Not
> so high that you couldn’t do all 16 and see if you ever get different
> results in any of 16 if you haven’t already.
> >>
> >> — John.
>
>


Re: [M100] DVI help

2018-02-17 Thread Randall Kindig
SUCCESS!

Per John’s suggestion (and was thinking the same thing when he suggested it) I 
now have a working system.  I started trying different combinations of 
DVI/M100/cable (of which I have 2 each).

DVI #2, M100 #2, Cable #2, no luck

So I swapped out M100 #2 (32K) for M100 #1 (24K/REX), and it worked!

It’s still a little finicky and doesn’t always work, but has worked multiple 
times now.  I don’t know if there’s anything I can do to “tune” it so it’s more 
consistent, but I”m pumped that I finally got it to work.

I had tried this M100/cable combination with DVI #1, so I’m wondering if 
there’s an issue with that DVI.  There also must be an issue of some sort with 
M100 #1 as the current DVI/cable setup didn’t work with that machine, but does 
with the other.

This sure seems like a finicky setup.  I would love to see a modern DVI 
replacement, perhaps with SD card for disk and video output, that would take up 
far less desk space and be more robust.

Thanks all!  Any other suggestions for troubleshooting why the M100 (#2) 
doesn’t work with this and also why DVI #1 doesn’t work with either M100 would 
be much appreciated.

Randy


> On Feb 17, 2018, at 4:22 PM, Randy Kindig  wrote:
> 
> I was just thinking the same thing John.  It’s worth a try.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Feb 17, 2018, at 3:07 PM, John R. Hogerhuis  wrote:
>> 
>> Btw it occurs to me that there are 16 permutations possible there. Not so 
>> high that you couldn’t do all 16 and see if you ever get different results 
>> in any of 16 if you haven’t already. 
>> 
>> — John. 



Re: [M100] DVI help

2018-02-17 Thread Brian White
No no, I was just providing good references for Randy to check against, and
a good/handy place for him to physically touch with meter leads with little
risk of shorting or getting it wrong.

Mine works fine, so Randy should be able to check the same thing on his and
see if his is very different fairly easily.

Both test points I described, the empty bus socket on the M100, and C67
inside the DVI, are easy to identify and easy to touch with plain old meter
probes from any cheap multimeter. On the M100, pin 1 is labelled, and pin 2
is next to it. For the DVI, you need to take the top cover off the DVI, but
that's it. C67 is right on top, front, left. C67 is clearly identified, and
the negative side of C67 is clearly identified with a "-" in a circle.

-- 
bkw

On Feb 17, 2018 4:58 PM, "Fugu ME100" <b4me...@hotmail.com> wrote:

Those voltages would appear to be correct.  With the M100 off it would be
residual charge in the cap or leakages somewhere else on the board giving
the 0.83V.

Well it was worth checking.   It looks like the +5V is getting across and
is very healthy.  Need to ponder some more on why your DVI is not working.


From: M100 <m100-boun...@lists.bitchin100.com> on behalf of Brian White <
bw.al...@gmail.com>
Reply-To: <m...@bitchin100.com>
Date: Saturday, February 17, 2018 at 1:48 PM
To: <m...@bitchin100.com>
Subject: Re: [M100] DVI help

That is interesting.

I have just confirmed that there is continuity from pins 1 & 40 on the M100
end of my DVI cable, all the way to the + side of C67 inside the DVI, And
continuity from pins 2 & 39 all the way to the - side of C67 (and every
other ground in the dvi, including the case)

C67 is a small electrolytic cap on the main motherboard of the dvi,
front-left corner right next to the end of the CN1 ribbon cable.

That makes C67 an easy place to measure this voltage while the cabe is
connected and while everything is up & running. It's easy to see, and easy
to get at with multimeter probes.

So you can check the following:

First check the M100 by itself for reference to see how everything else
deviates from there.
Without any cable connected to the M100, and the M100 turned on, I get
5.09v on pins 1 & 2 (red to pin 1, black to pin 2) on the empty M100 bus
connector.

Then with the DVI connected.
With the cable connected and both the M100 and DVI turned on, I get 5.08v
to 5.09v across C67. Black on the (-) side, toward the front of the DVI.

With the DVI turned on but no M100 connected, I get 4.54v across C67.

With the DVI turned on, and the cable connected to the M100, but the M100
turned off, I only get 0.83v across C67

This was all with the M100 just running on batteries.

-- 
bkw

On Feb 17, 2018 2:05 PM, "Fugu ME100" <b4me...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> How are the M100¹s powered? AC or battery?
>
> The DVI box relies on the +5V from the M100 to enable the interface
> without that nothing will happen.  You might want to check that both
> M100¹s are providing a good +5V at pins 1 and 40 on the IC Bus socket.
> Even though the M100¹s are working they can work down to about 4.5V or
> slightly less.
>
> Do you know if the DVIs boxes were working when they were purchased?
>
> The other bad possibility is that both DVI bus interfaces are dead :(  It
> is the weakest link in the chain and they might of both died, on two units
> it should be very unlikely.  However there is an electrolytic cap on the
> DVI interface board that connects to the +5V from the M100. It could of
> leaked and now be pulling the +5V down just enough to prevent the DVI
> interface buffers enabling.  The rest of the unit would not be affected at
> all by this problem.
>
> Do you notice any changes on the M100 when it is plugged into the DVI?
> Sometimes when the +5V is getting loaded you can hear a whine from the on
> board power transformer as it struggles to supply power - at least on my
> M100 :-D
>
>
> On 17/2/18, 8:24 AM, "M100 on behalf of Randall Kindig"
> <m100-boun...@lists.bitchin100.com on behalf of randall.kin...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >Ok, I¹m at my wit¹s end here.  I have tried everything now and can¹t get
> >the DVI to work.
> >
> >Here¹s what I have:
> >- 2 M100¹s, 1 with 24K and and 1 with 32K
> >- 2 very clean DVI boxes with a single drive
> >- 2 DVI to M100 cables
> >- 2 DVI boot disks
> >
> >The cables have been tested by the guy who made them.  So have the boot
> >disks for the DVI.  There are 2 boot disks for backup.
> >
> >The M100¹s both work great.
> >
> >Here¹s the steps I take:
> >- connect the cable from the M100 to the DVI.  I¹ve double and
> >triple-checked that the cable connections are solid and correct on both
> >ends
> >- connect a monitor to the DVI
> &g

Re: [M100] DVI help

2018-02-17 Thread Fugu ME100
Those voltages would appear to be correct.  With the M100 off it would be 
residual charge in the cap or leakages somewhere else on the board giving the 
0.83V.

Well it was worth checking.   It looks like the +5V is getting across and is 
very healthy.  Need to ponder some more on why your DVI is not working.

From: M100 
<m100-boun...@lists.bitchin100.com<mailto:m100-boun...@lists.bitchin100.com>> 
on behalf of Brian White <bw.al...@gmail.com<mailto:bw.al...@gmail.com>>
Reply-To: <m...@bitchin100.com<mailto:m...@bitchin100.com>>
Date: Saturday, February 17, 2018 at 1:48 PM
To: <m...@bitchin100.com<mailto:m...@bitchin100.com>>
Subject: Re: [M100] DVI help

That is interesting.

I have just confirmed that there is continuity from pins 1 & 40 on the M100 end 
of my DVI cable, all the way to the + side of C67 inside the DVI, And 
continuity from pins 2 & 39 all the way to the - side of C67 (and every other 
ground in the dvi, including the case)

C67 is a small electrolytic cap on the main motherboard of the dvi, front-left 
corner right next to the end of the CN1 ribbon cable.

That makes C67 an easy place to measure this voltage while the cabe is 
connected and while everything is up & running. It's easy to see, and easy to 
get at with multimeter probes.

So you can check the following:

First check the M100 by itself for reference to see how everything else 
deviates from there.
Without any cable connected to the M100, and the M100 turned on, I get 5.09v on 
pins 1 & 2 (red to pin 1, black to pin 2) on the empty M100 bus connector.

Then with the DVI connected.
With the cable connected and both the M100 and DVI turned on, I get 5.08v to 
5.09v across C67. Black on the (-) side, toward the front of the DVI.

With the DVI turned on but no M100 connected, I get 4.54v across C67.

With the DVI turned on, and the cable connected to the M100, but the M100 
turned off, I only get 0.83v across C67

This was all with the M100 just running on batteries.

--
bkw

On Feb 17, 2018 2:05 PM, "Fugu ME100" 
<b4me...@hotmail.com<mailto:b4me...@hotmail.com>> wrote:
How are the M100¹s powered? AC or battery?

The DVI box relies on the +5V from the M100 to enable the interface
without that nothing will happen.  You might want to check that both
M100¹s are providing a good +5V at pins 1 and 40 on the IC Bus socket.
Even though the M100¹s are working they can work down to about 4.5V or
slightly less.

Do you know if the DVIs boxes were working when they were purchased?

The other bad possibility is that both DVI bus interfaces are dead :(  It
is the weakest link in the chain and they might of both died, on two units
it should be very unlikely.  However there is an electrolytic cap on the
DVI interface board that connects to the +5V from the M100. It could of
leaked and now be pulling the +5V down just enough to prevent the DVI
interface buffers enabling.  The rest of the unit would not be affected at
all by this problem.

Do you notice any changes on the M100 when it is plugged into the DVI?
Sometimes when the +5V is getting loaded you can hear a whine from the on
board power transformer as it struggles to supply power - at least on my
M100 :-D


On 17/2/18, 8:24 AM, "M100 on behalf of Randall Kindig"
<m100-boun...@lists.bitchin100.com<mailto:m100-boun...@lists.bitchin100.com> on 
behalf of randall.kin...@gmail.com<mailto:randall.kin...@gmail.com>>
wrote:

>Ok, I¹m at my wit¹s end here.  I have tried everything now and can¹t get
>the DVI to work.
>
>Here¹s what I have:
>- 2 M100¹s, 1 with 24K and and 1 with 32K
>- 2 very clean DVI boxes with a single drive
>- 2 DVI to M100 cables
>- 2 DVI boot disks
>
>The cables have been tested by the guy who made them.  So have the boot
>disks for the DVI.  There are 2 boot disks for backup.
>
>The M100¹s both work great.
>
>Here¹s the steps I take:
>- connect the cable from the M100 to the DVI.  I¹ve double and
>triple-checked that the cable connections are solid and correct on both
>ends
>- connect a monitor to the DVI
>- turn on the monitor
>- turn on the M100
>- turn on the DVI without a disk
>- when it asks for the disk, put it in and close the drive door
>- the DVI boots to the Microsoft screen
>- press RESET or CNTL-BREAK-RESET on the M100
>- NOTHING HAPPENS
>
>This is extremely frustrating.  I bought 2 of everything just to rule out
>where the issue could be and yet it makes no difference.
>
>I just bought a new DVI, thinking that was the issue because I have 2 of
>all the other pieces and couldn¹t get it to work.  It acts exactly the
>same way as the first DVI.
>
>I¹ll buy a beer for anyone who can help me figure out what¹s happening
>here :)
>
>thanks
>
>Randy
>




Re: [M100] DVI help

2018-02-17 Thread Brian White
That is interesting.

I have just confirmed that there is continuity from pins 1 & 40 on the M100
end of my DVI cable, all the way to the + side of C67 inside the DVI, And
continuity from pins 2 & 39 all the way to the - side of C67 (and every
other ground in the dvi, including the case)

C67 is a small electrolytic cap on the main motherboard of the dvi,
front-left corner right next to the end of the CN1 ribbon cable.

That makes C67 an easy place to measure this voltage while the cabe is
connected and while everything is up & running. It's easy to see, and easy
to get at with multimeter probes.

So you can check the following:

First check the M100 by itself for reference to see how everything else
deviates from there.
Without any cable connected to the M100, and the M100 turned on, I get
5.09v on pins 1 & 2 (red to pin 1, black to pin 2) on the empty M100 bus
connector.

Then with the DVI connected.
With the cable connected and both the M100 and DVI turned on, I get 5.08v
to 5.09v across C67. Black on the (-) side, toward the front of the DVI.

With the DVI turned on but no M100 connected, I get 4.54v across C67.

With the DVI turned on, and the cable connected to the M100, but the M100
turned off, I only get 0.83v across C67

This was all with the M100 just running on batteries.

-- 
bkw

On Feb 17, 2018 2:05 PM, "Fugu ME100"  wrote:

> How are the M100¹s powered? AC or battery?
>
> The DVI box relies on the +5V from the M100 to enable the interface
> without that nothing will happen.  You might want to check that both
> M100¹s are providing a good +5V at pins 1 and 40 on the IC Bus socket.
> Even though the M100¹s are working they can work down to about 4.5V or
> slightly less.
>
> Do you know if the DVIs boxes were working when they were purchased?
>
> The other bad possibility is that both DVI bus interfaces are dead :(  It
> is the weakest link in the chain and they might of both died, on two units
> it should be very unlikely.  However there is an electrolytic cap on the
> DVI interface board that connects to the +5V from the M100. It could of
> leaked and now be pulling the +5V down just enough to prevent the DVI
> interface buffers enabling.  The rest of the unit would not be affected at
> all by this problem.
>
> Do you notice any changes on the M100 when it is plugged into the DVI?
> Sometimes when the +5V is getting loaded you can hear a whine from the on
> board power transformer as it struggles to supply power - at least on my
> M100 :-D
>
>
> On 17/2/18, 8:24 AM, "M100 on behalf of Randall Kindig"
> 
> wrote:
>
> >Ok, I¹m at my wit¹s end here.  I have tried everything now and can¹t get
> >the DVI to work.
> >
> >Here¹s what I have:
> >- 2 M100¹s, 1 with 24K and and 1 with 32K
> >- 2 very clean DVI boxes with a single drive
> >- 2 DVI to M100 cables
> >- 2 DVI boot disks
> >
> >The cables have been tested by the guy who made them.  So have the boot
> >disks for the DVI.  There are 2 boot disks for backup.
> >
> >The M100¹s both work great.
> >
> >Here¹s the steps I take:
> >- connect the cable from the M100 to the DVI.  I¹ve double and
> >triple-checked that the cable connections are solid and correct on both
> >ends
> >- connect a monitor to the DVI
> >- turn on the monitor
> >- turn on the M100
> >- turn on the DVI without a disk
> >- when it asks for the disk, put it in and close the drive door
> >- the DVI boots to the Microsoft screen
> >- press RESET or CNTL-BREAK-RESET on the M100
> >- NOTHING HAPPENS
> >
> >This is extremely frustrating.  I bought 2 of everything just to rule out
> >where the issue could be and yet it makes no difference.
> >
> >I just bought a new DVI, thinking that was the issue because I have 2 of
> >all the other pieces and couldn¹t get it to work.  It acts exactly the
> >same way as the first DVI.
> >
> >I¹ll buy a beer for anyone who can help me figure out what¹s happening
> >here :)
> >
> >thanks
> >
> >Randy
> >
>
>
>


Re: [M100] DVI help

2018-02-17 Thread John R. Hogerhuis
Btw it occurs to me that there are 16 permutations possible there. Not so
high that you couldn’t do all 16 and see if you ever get different results
in any of 16 if you haven’t already.

— John.


Re: [M100] DVI help

2018-02-17 Thread Fugu ME100
How are the M100¹s powered? AC or battery?

The DVI box relies on the +5V from the M100 to enable the interface
without that nothing will happen.  You might want to check that both
M100¹s are providing a good +5V at pins 1 and 40 on the IC Bus socket.
Even though the M100¹s are working they can work down to about 4.5V or
slightly less.  

Do you know if the DVIs boxes were working when they were purchased?

The other bad possibility is that both DVI bus interfaces are dead :(  It
is the weakest link in the chain and they might of both died, on two units
it should be very unlikely.  However there is an electrolytic cap on the
DVI interface board that connects to the +5V from the M100. It could of
leaked and now be pulling the +5V down just enough to prevent the DVI
interface buffers enabling.  The rest of the unit would not be affected at
all by this problem.

Do you notice any changes on the M100 when it is plugged into the DVI?
Sometimes when the +5V is getting loaded you can hear a whine from the on
board power transformer as it struggles to supply power - at least on my
M100 :-D  


On 17/2/18, 8:24 AM, "M100 on behalf of Randall Kindig"

wrote:

>Ok, I¹m at my wit¹s end here.  I have tried everything now and can¹t get
>the DVI to work.
>
>Here¹s what I have:
>- 2 M100¹s, 1 with 24K and and 1 with 32K
>- 2 very clean DVI boxes with a single drive
>- 2 DVI to M100 cables
>- 2 DVI boot disks
>
>The cables have been tested by the guy who made them.  So have the boot
>disks for the DVI.  There are 2 boot disks for backup.
>
>The M100¹s both work great.
>
>Here¹s the steps I take:
>- connect the cable from the M100 to the DVI.  I¹ve double and
>triple-checked that the cable connections are solid and correct on both
>ends
>- connect a monitor to the DVI
>- turn on the monitor
>- turn on the M100
>- turn on the DVI without a disk
>- when it asks for the disk, put it in and close the drive door
>- the DVI boots to the Microsoft screen
>- press RESET or CNTL-BREAK-RESET on the M100
>- NOTHING HAPPENS
>
>This is extremely frustrating.  I bought 2 of everything just to rule out
>where the issue could be and yet it makes no difference.
>
>I just bought a new DVI, thinking that was the issue because I have 2 of
>all the other pieces and couldn¹t get it to work.  It acts exactly the
>same way as the first DVI.
>
>I¹ll buy a beer for anyone who can help me figure out what¹s happening
>here :)
>
>thanks
>
>Randy
>




Re: [M100] DVI help

2018-02-17 Thread Randall Kindig
That is correct, sir.  That’s exactly what’s happening with any combination of 
M100’s, cables, and DVI’s.

> The only other hint I can suggest is that it IS possible to plug the bus 
> connector on a M100 off-center by one pin, and leave 2 pins hanging off the 
> edge of the connector.
I’ve checked and rechecked the M100 end to make sure the pins are all in the 
sockets.  I’ve been paranoid about that.

> It's also possible to plug the m100 side of the cable in backwards since it's 
> not keyed.

Per the manual, the red line on the ribbon is on the right coming out of the 
M100.  If you try it the other way you have to twist the cable to get the DVI 
end of the cable into its slot correctly.

> Do the dvi end of your cables have both a polarity key and a strain relief 
> clip? The polarity key obviously prevents you plugging it in backwards, but 
> the strain relief also ensures you're getting it all the way plugged in, 
> because the latches on the sides couldn't even close all the way unless the 
> plug was all the way in.


yes they do and I’m able to latch the cable end into the DVI.

Randy


> On Feb 17, 2018, at 1:01 PM, Brian White  wrote:
> 
> If you get the 3 lines of microsoft version info on the tv screen, that does 
> prove the drive is working at least well enough to read the first sector.
> 
> When you say nothing happens, let me get this exactly:
> 
> You get both the "please wait" and the "insert system diskette" prompts.
> 
> You close the drive door, and shortly after that the tv screen is showing the 
> 4 lines of microsoft and tandy version info.
> 
> You press reset on the m100.
> 
> The dvi does not react in any way. The drive doesn't start to run, The tv 
> screen doesn't change.
> 
> Is that correct?
> 
> 
> In support of your theory about communication: I just tried on my dvi and I 
> can get all of that exactly the same, without any M100 plugged in at all.
> 
> Also, I found it doesn't actually seem to matter so much about the order 
> things are turned on. I'm sure the order in the manual is somehow the most 
> certain way, while any other way probably just works by luck and may not be 
> garanteed to work every time. So I would continue to do the manual way 
> normally.
> 
> But just to run the rxperiment, I just did it totally out of order by turning 
> the dvi on with no m100 even plugged in. Booted the disk in the dvi still 
> with no m100 connected. THEN plugged in an m100.
> 
> This caused some junk characters to write to the tv screen, which is no 
> surprise because the bus connector is NOT a hot-swap connector! Of course for 
> time mid-way through the act of connecting, some random set of signals are 
> connected and some others are not, and the bus must be a complete train wreck 
> during that second.
> 
> Then I turned the m100 on and pressed reset and the dvi dos loaded and 
> worked. The junk cleared off the tv screen and going into basic and running 
> dvi commands like screen 1,1 and lfiles worked.
> 
> The point of all this is to suggest that it's probably not failing for you 
> because it's so fanatically delicate that it only works if you whispered the 
> prayer with just exactly the right level of sincerity to please the fickle 
> gods.
> 
> It does seem like a cable or other communication problem, given the 2 things 
> I showed here.
> 
> * You can get all of your observed actions with no M100 connected at all.
> 
> * You can get a successful boot (at least some times)  even if you totally 
> violate the heck out of the procedure in the manual. At the very least, 
> pressing the reset button on the m100 should always produce *some* reaction 
> in the dvi. Even if the dos failed to load cleanly, you at least know the 
> reset press itself was communicated.
> 
> I suppose it's possible the communication break could be somewhere else 
> besides the cable. There is a tiny bit of pcb traces in the m100 to the bus 
> connector, and there is a small daughter card and ribbon cable in the dvi for 
> the bus connector. But 2 of them having a bad daugher card or ribbon? Does 
> seem unlikely.
> 
> The only other hint I can suggest is that it IS possible to plug the bus 
> connector on a M100 off-center by one pin, and leave 2 pins hanging off the 
> edge of the connector.
> 
> It's also possible to plug the m100 side of the cable in backwards since it's 
> not keyed.
> 
> Do the dvi end of your cables have both a polarity key and a strain relief 
> clip? The polarity key obviously prevents you plugging it in backwards, but 
> the strain relief also ensures you're getting it all the way plugged in, 
> because the latches on the sides couldn't even close all the way unless the 
> plug was all the way in.
> 
> -- 
> bkw
> 
> On Feb 17, 2018 12:02 PM, "Randall Kindig"  > wrote:
> appreciate the thoughts, John.  My question is: both drives?  That’s why I 
> bought a second DVI; to see if there 

Re: [M100] DVI help

2018-02-17 Thread Brian White
If you get the 3 lines of microsoft version info on the tv screen, that
does prove the drive is working at least well enough to read the first
sector.

When you say nothing happens, let me get this exactly:

You get both the "please wait" and the "insert system diskette" prompts.

You close the drive door, and shortly after that the tv screen is showing
the 4 lines of microsoft and tandy version info.

You press reset on the m100.

The dvi does not react in any way. The drive doesn't start to run, The tv
screen doesn't change.

Is that correct?


In support of your theory about communication: I just tried on my dvi and I
can get all of that exactly the same, without any M100 plugged in at all.

Also, I found it doesn't actually seem to matter so much about the order
things are turned on. I'm sure the order in the manual is somehow the most
certain way, while any other way probably just works by luck and may not be
garanteed to work every time. So I would continue to do the manual way
normally.

But just to run the rxperiment, I just did it totally out of order by
turning the dvi on with no m100 even plugged in. Booted the disk in the dvi
still with no m100 connected. THEN plugged in an m100.

This caused some junk characters to write to the tv screen, which is no
surprise because the bus connector is NOT a hot-swap connector! Of course
for time mid-way through the act of connecting, some random set of signals
are connected and some others are not, and the bus must be a complete train
wreck during that second.

Then I turned the m100 on and pressed reset and the dvi dos loaded and
worked. The junk cleared off the tv screen and going into basic and running
dvi commands like screen 1,1 and lfiles worked.

The point of all this is to suggest that it's probably not failing for you
because it's so fanatically delicate that it only works if you whispered
the prayer with just exactly the right level of sincerity to please the
fickle gods.

It does seem like a cable or other communication problem, given the 2
things I showed here.

* You can get all of your observed actions with no M100 connected at all.

* You can get a successful boot (at least some times)  even if you totally
violate the heck out of the procedure in the manual. At the very least,
pressing the reset button on the m100 should always produce *some* reaction
in the dvi. Even if the dos failed to load cleanly, you at least know the
reset press itself was communicated.

I suppose it's possible the communication break could be somewhere else
besides the cable. There is a tiny bit of pcb traces in the m100 to the bus
connector, and there is a small daughter card and ribbon cable in the dvi
for the bus connector. But 2 of them having a bad daugher card or ribbon?
Does seem unlikely.

The only other hint I can suggest is that it IS possible to plug the bus
connector on a M100 off-center by one pin, and leave 2 pins hanging off the
edge of the connector.

It's also possible to plug the m100 side of the cable in backwards since
it's not keyed.

Do the dvi end of your cables have both a polarity key and a strain relief
clip? The polarity key obviously prevents you plugging it in backwards, but
the strain relief also ensures you're getting it all the way plugged in,
because the latches on the sides couldn't even close all the way unless the
plug was all the way in.

-- 
bkw

On Feb 17, 2018 12:02 PM, "Randall Kindig"  wrote:

> appreciate the thoughts, John.  My question is: both drives?  That’s why I
> bought a second DVI; to see if there was a problem with the first one.
>
> Also, it seems to me, and I could be totally in left field, that the fact
> that it boots to the Microsoft screen off the disk (both of them do this)
> would indicate that the drive is able to read the disk.  Also, upon reset
> of the M100 the disk drive is supposed to light up and read DVI BASIC off
> the disk.  The drive light for either DVI does not do this.  It seems to me
> (again, I’m not an expert) that this would indicate a problem with the
> communication from the M100 to the DVI.  However, I have 2 cables and 2
> M100’s and it doesn’t work with either.
>
> Randy
>
>
> > On Feb 17, 2018, at 11:50 AM, John R. Hogerhuis 
> wrote:
> >
> > Disk drive broken? Loose belt maybe? Damaged or dirty head?
> >
> > Is there some way you can test it to gain some confidence? Say, in a pc?
> >
> > That’s what was wrong with Brian’s DVI in the end.
> >
> > I think there are some disk drive replacements around. Either you could
> buy a new one or find a gadget that uses flash in place of disk.
> >
> > Floppy drives were maintenance issues back in the day, with old hardware
> I’m surprised they ever work at all.
> >
> > — John.
>
>


Re: [M100] DVI help

2018-02-17 Thread Randall Kindig
appreciate the thoughts, John.  My question is: both drives?  That’s why I 
bought a second DVI; to see if there was a problem with the first one.

Also, it seems to me, and I could be totally in left field, that the fact that 
it boots to the Microsoft screen off the disk (both of them do this) would 
indicate that the drive is able to read the disk.  Also, upon reset of the M100 
the disk drive is supposed to light up and read DVI BASIC off the disk.  The 
drive light for either DVI does not do this.  It seems to me (again, I’m not an 
expert) that this would indicate a problem with the communication from the M100 
to the DVI.  However, I have 2 cables and 2 M100’s and it doesn’t work with 
either.

Randy


> On Feb 17, 2018, at 11:50 AM, John R. Hogerhuis  wrote:
> 
> Disk drive broken? Loose belt maybe? Damaged or dirty head?
> 
> Is there some way you can test it to gain some confidence? Say, in a pc?
> 
> That’s what was wrong with Brian’s DVI in the end. 
> 
> I think there are some disk drive replacements around. Either you could buy a 
> new one or find a gadget that uses flash in place of disk.  
> 
> Floppy drives were maintenance issues back in the day, with old hardware I’m 
> surprised they ever work at all. 
> 
> — John. 



Re: [M100] DVI help

2018-02-17 Thread John R. Hogerhuis
Disk drive broken? Loose belt maybe? Damaged or dirty head?

Is there some way you can test it to gain some confidence? Say, in a pc?

That’s what was wrong with Brian’s DVI in the end.

I think there are some disk drive replacements around. Either you could buy
a new one or find a gadget that uses flash in place of disk.

Floppy drives were maintenance issues back in the day, with old hardware
I’m surprised they ever work at all.

— John.