RE: Question about VoiceOver and words in all capital letters

2018-04-20 Thread Simon Fogarty 
Hi Tim,

I agree,
I get similar issues at work when using windows / jaws and any number of web or 
desktop based applications.

From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com <macvisionaries@googlegroups.com> On 
Behalf Of Tim Kilburn
Sent: Saturday, 21 April 2018 2:31 AM
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Question about VoiceOver and words in all capital letters

Hi,

I think that Jonathan is onto something with his response.  In regular 
documents, in most cases, the headings and such that are in all caps, still 
read as the word as opposed to the spelled out cap letters, whereas on the Net 
and in some pdf's, it is read out as Steve explains.  For the most part, I've 
just lived with it as an idiosyncrasy.

Later..

Tim Kilburn
Apple Teacher
Fort McMurray, AB Canada

On Apr 20, 2018, at 08:21, E.T. 
<ancient.ali...@icloud.com<mailto:ancient.ali...@icloud.com>> wrote:

  Sounds like something not easily remedied, perhaps with the pronunciation 
dictionary. I do not read ads myself so perhaps not an issue for me.

>From E.T.'s Keyboard...
  ancient.ali...@icloud.com<mailto:ancient.ali...@icloud.com>
Many believe that we have been visited
in the past. What if it were true?

On 4/20/2018 6:41 AM, Steve Matzura wrote:

On 4/19/2018 9:33 PM, E.T. wrote:

   I think VO as it stands, handles this properly. I opened a document in 
TextEdit and entered several acronyms. VO read them as expected, for example it 
reads ACLU as A C L U. There is a setting you might look at in VO Utility, 
Verbosity category, Text tab. It's an option that affects how capital letters 
are handled.
But that's single letters. Whenever I run into something in all capital 
letters, like an advertisement  with capital letters in a double-height 
double-wide font that says "big big savings" or something similar, I hear this:
B I G  S A V I N G S
without the spaces, of course. Every time I read something with the phrase "MAC 
address," I hear "M A C address." The setting to which you refer is only for 
single letters. The above examples are the kinds of things I want eliminated.

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RE: Question about VoiceOver and words in all capital letters

2018-04-20 Thread Simon Fogarty 
On a website it sounds more like the vo config and how it's setup to do the job 
you want it to do,

But the cause is the fonts / styles in the webpage 
I'd say if anything VO is doing what you've set it up for and because webpages 
are different in how the CSS is configured or set it's making the changes in 
speech you hear.
-Original Message-
From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com <macvisionaries@googlegroups.com> On 
Behalf Of E.T.
Sent: Saturday, 21 April 2018 2:22 AM
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Question about VoiceOver and words in all capital letters

Sounds like something not easily remedied, perhaps with the pronunciation 
dictionary. I do not read ads myself so perhaps not an issue for me.

 From E.T.'s Keyboard...
ancient.ali...@icloud.com
Many believe that we have been visited
in the past. What if it were true?

On 4/20/2018 6:41 AM, Steve Matzura wrote:
> On 4/19/2018 9:33 PM, E.T. wrote:
>>    I think VO as it stands, handles this properly. I opened a 
>> document in TextEdit and entered several acronyms. VO read them as 
>> expected, for example it reads ACLU as A C L U. There is a setting 
>> you might look at in VO Utility, Verbosity category, Text tab. It's 
>> an option that affects how capital letters are handled.
> 
> But that's single letters. Whenever I run into something in all 
> capital letters, like an advertisement  with capital letters in a 
> double-height double-wide font that says "big big savings" or 
> something similar, I hear this:
> 
> B I G  S A V I N G S
> 
> without the spaces, of course. Every time I read something with the 
> phrase "MAC address," I hear "M A C address." The setting to which you 
> refer is only for single letters. The above examples are the kinds of 
> things I want eliminated.
> 

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Re: Question about VoiceOver and words in all capital letters

2018-04-20 Thread Jonathan Cohn 
An interesting parallel discussion in WEB AIM where somebody wanted to make 
sure “N” followed by “E” would be pronounced as separate characters. 

Who things to notice here:
1. the quoted word in Voice Over (El Capitan ) is spelled out.
2. The technique of inserting pseudo elements with ARIA into the middle of a 
stream of characters.
—


Hi,
As others have already pointed out, I don't recommend this except in some very 
rare circumstances.

ARIA was mentioned as a fix for this, but the recommended ways of doing this 
may be problematic across various platforms where support levels differ, so 
here is one that works more reliably.

The trick here is to use aria-owns to change the accessibility tree without 
impacting the DOM, like so. This changes "BEG" to "B E G", however it has no 
impact on the DOM or the styling of the visible text.

BEG

Then the following can be appended to the end of the body element so nobody 
will notice it.



This appends a space character at the end of the B and E letters in the 
accessibility tree, and this is what causes the separation to occur between 
them.

A few notes about this: Unlike other ARIA attributes like aria-labelledby or 
aria-describedby which can reference hidden elements, aria-owns doesn't work 
like this and won't render hidden elements. Also this technique should never be 
used on elements that don't support children like IMG elements or input 
elements, because this forces the accessibility tree to change and any content 
that is referenced like this will disappear and become impossible to navigate 
and interact with normally. Also using this method should never be used to move 
focusable interactive elements around because this does not change the tab 
order. The use of aria-owns cannot reference the same ID from different 
attributes, so each referenced node has to be different as shown above.

All the best,
Bryan


Bryan Garaventa
Accessibility Fellow
Level Access, Inc.

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Re: Question about VoiceOver and words in all capital letters

2018-04-20 Thread E.T. 

   Have you run this by Apple Accessibility?

From E.T.'s Keyboard...
   ancient.ali...@icloud.com
Many believe that we have been visited
in the past. What if it were true?

On 4/20/2018 7:02 AM, Steve Matzura wrote:

OK, I found the culprit. It's the word "MAC"!


Something else odd is also going on because on some Web pages I hear 
phrases and sometimes entire short sentences spelled out with VO that I 
don't get presented that way in Windows, so there's probably some funky 
punctuation going on that maybe makes VO think the string is one big 
word, something, I just don't know. Next time I trip over this, I'll 
make careful note of it and post about it, along with the object that 
created/caused the spelling behavior.



On 4/20/2018 9:50 AM, Jonathan Cohn wrote:
That might have to do with how CSS is set up for those advertisements. 
If I type BIG SAVINGS my VoiceOVer reads the words and not the 
letters. Though while typing it it spoke the letters.


I have on occasion put a word into the pronunciation dictionary that 
did not handle the speaking of letters vs speaking of word 
pronunciation the way I wanted it to. And then while doing HTML 
editing I added
The string indicating the beginning of a HTML comment to say HTML 
comment. I can remember off hand if I added the equivalent dictionary 
entry for the end of comment marker.


Best Wishes,

Jonathan

On Apr 20, 2018, at 9:41 AM, Steve Matzura  
wrote:


On 4/19/2018 9:33 PM, E.T. wrote:
    I think VO as it stands, handles this properly. I opened a 
document in TextEdit and entered several acronyms. VO read them as 
expected, for example it reads ACLU as A C L U. There is a setting 
you might look at in VO Utility, Verbosity category, Text tab. It's 
an option that affects how capital letters are handled.
But that's single letters. Whenever I run into something in all 
capital letters, like an advertisement  with capital letters in a 
double-height double-wide font that says "big big savings" or 
something similar, I hear this:


B I G  S A V I N G S

without the spaces, of course. Every time I read something with the 
phrase "MAC address," I hear "M A C address." The setting to which 
you refer is only for single letters. The above examples are the 
kinds of things I want eliminated.


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Re: Question about VoiceOver and words in all capital letters

2018-04-20 Thread Steve Matzura 

OK, I found the culprit. It's the word "MAC"!


Something else odd is also going on because on some Web pages I hear 
phrases and sometimes entire short sentences spelled out with VO that I 
don't get presented that way in Windows, so there's probably some funky 
punctuation going on that maybe makes VO think the string is one big 
word, something, I just don't know. Next time I trip over this, I'll 
make careful note of it and post about it, along with the object that 
created/caused the spelling behavior.



On 4/20/2018 9:50 AM, Jonathan Cohn wrote:

That might have to do with how CSS is set up for those advertisements. If I 
type BIG SAVINGS my VoiceOVer reads the words and not the letters. Though while 
typing it it spoke the letters.

I have on occasion put a word into the pronunciation dictionary that did not 
handle the speaking of letters vs speaking of word pronunciation the way I 
wanted it to. And then while doing HTML editing I added
The string indicating the beginning of a HTML comment to say HTML comment. I 
can remember off hand if I added the equivalent dictionary entry for the end of 
comment marker.

Best Wishes,

Jonathan


On Apr 20, 2018, at 9:41 AM, Steve Matzura  wrote:

On 4/19/2018 9:33 PM, E.T. wrote:

I think VO as it stands, handles this properly. I opened a document in 
TextEdit and entered several acronyms. VO read them as expected, for example it 
reads ACLU as A C L U. There is a setting you might look at in VO Utility, 
Verbosity category, Text tab. It's an option that affects how capital letters 
are handled.

But that's single letters. Whenever I run into something in all capital letters, like an 
advertisement  with capital letters in a double-height double-wide font that says 
"big big savings" or something similar, I hear this:

B I G  S A V I N G S

without the spaces, of course. Every time I read something with the phrase "MAC address," 
I hear "M A C address." The setting to which you refer is only for single letters. The 
above examples are the kinds of things I want eliminated.

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Re: Question about VoiceOver and words in all capital letters

2018-04-20 Thread E.T. 

   Yes exactly. Idiosyncrasy is fitting too.

From E.T.'s Keyboard...
   ancient.ali...@icloud.com
Many believe that we have been visited
in the past. What if it were true?

On 4/20/2018 7:31 AM, Tim Kilburn wrote:

Hi,

I think that Jonathan is onto something with his response.  In regular 
documents, in most cases, the headings and such that are in all caps, 
still read as the word as opposed to the spelled out cap letters, 
whereas on the Net and in some pdf's, it is read out as Steve explains. 
  For the most part, I've just lived with it as an idiosyncrasy.


Later..

Tim Kilburn
Apple Teacher
Fort McMurray, AB Canada

On Apr 20, 2018, at 08:21, E.T. > wrote:


   Sounds like something not easily remedied, perhaps with the 
pronunciation dictionary. I do not read ads myself so perhaps not an 
issue for me.


 From E.T.'s Keyboard...
ancient.ali...@icloud.com 
Many believe that we have been visited
in the past. What if it were true?

On 4/20/2018 6:41 AM, Steve Matzura wrote:

On 4/19/2018 9:33 PM, E.T. wrote:
   I think VO as it stands, handles this properly. I opened a 
document in TextEdit and entered several acronyms. VO read them as 
expected, for example it reads ACLU as A C L U. There is a setting 
you might look at in VO Utility, Verbosity category, Text tab. It's 
an option that affects how capital letters are handled.
But that's single letters. Whenever I run into something in all 
capital letters, like an advertisement  with capital letters in a 
double-height double-wide font that says "big big savings" or 
something similar, I hear this:

B I G  S A V I N G S
without the spaces, of course. Every time I read something with the 
phrase "MAC address," I hear "M A C address." The setting to which you 
refer is only for single letters. The above examples are the kinds of 
things I want eliminated.


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Re: Question about VoiceOver and words in all capital letters

2018-04-20 Thread Tim Kilburn 
Hi,

I think that Jonathan is onto something with his response.  In regular 
documents, in most cases, the headings and such that are in all caps, still 
read as the word as opposed to the spelled out cap letters, whereas on the Net 
and in some pdf's, it is read out as Steve explains.  For the most part, I've 
just lived with it as an idiosyncrasy.

Later..

Tim Kilburn
Apple Teacher
Fort McMurray, AB Canada

On Apr 20, 2018, at 08:21, E.T.  wrote:

  Sounds like something not easily remedied, perhaps with the pronunciation 
dictionary. I do not read ads myself so perhaps not an issue for me.

>From E.T.'s Keyboard...
  ancient.ali...@icloud.com
Many believe that we have been visited
in the past. What if it were true?

On 4/20/2018 6:41 AM, Steve Matzura wrote:
> On 4/19/2018 9:33 PM, E.T. wrote:
>>I think VO as it stands, handles this properly. I opened a document in 
>> TextEdit and entered several acronyms. VO read them as expected, for example 
>> it reads ACLU as A C L U. There is a setting you might look at in VO 
>> Utility, Verbosity category, Text tab. It's an option that affects how 
>> capital letters are handled.
> But that's single letters. Whenever I run into something in all capital 
> letters, like an advertisement  with capital letters in a double-height 
> double-wide font that says "big big savings" or something similar, I hear 
> this:
> B I G  S A V I N G S
> without the spaces, of course. Every time I read something with the phrase 
> "MAC address," I hear "M A C address." The setting to which you refer is only 
> for single letters. The above examples are the kinds of things I want 
> eliminated.

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Re: Question about VoiceOver and words in all capital letters

2018-04-20 Thread E.T. 
   Sounds like something not easily remedied, perhaps with the 
pronunciation dictionary. I do not read ads myself so perhaps not an 
issue for me.


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On 4/20/2018 6:41 AM, Steve Matzura wrote:

On 4/19/2018 9:33 PM, E.T. wrote:
   I think VO as it stands, handles this properly. I opened a document 
in TextEdit and entered several acronyms. VO read them as expected, 
for example it reads ACLU as A C L U. There is a setting you might 
look at in VO Utility, Verbosity category, Text tab. It's an option 
that affects how capital letters are handled.


But that's single letters. Whenever I run into something in all capital 
letters, like an advertisement  with capital letters in a double-height 
double-wide font that says "big big savings" or something similar, I 
hear this:


B I G  S A V I N G S

without the spaces, of course. Every time I read something with the 
phrase "MAC address," I hear "M A C address." The setting to which you 
refer is only for single letters. The above examples are the kinds of 
things I want eliminated.




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Re: Question about VoiceOver and words in all capital letters

2018-04-20 Thread Jonathan Cohn 
That might have to do with how CSS is set up for those advertisements. If I 
type BIG SAVINGS my VoiceOVer reads the words and not the letters. Though while 
typing it it spoke the letters.

I have on occasion put a word into the pronunciation dictionary that did not 
handle the speaking of letters vs speaking of word pronunciation the way I 
wanted it to. And then while doing HTML editing I added
The string indicating the beginning of a HTML comment to say HTML comment. I 
can remember off hand if I added the equivalent dictionary entry for the end of 
comment marker.

Best Wishes,

Jonathan 

> On Apr 20, 2018, at 9:41 AM, Steve Matzura  wrote:
> 
> On 4/19/2018 9:33 PM, E.T. wrote:
>>I think VO as it stands, handles this properly. I opened a document in 
>> TextEdit and entered several acronyms. VO read them as expected, for example 
>> it reads ACLU as A C L U. There is a setting you might look at in VO 
>> Utility, Verbosity category, Text tab. It's an option that affects how 
>> capital letters are handled.
> 
> But that's single letters. Whenever I run into something in all capital 
> letters, like an advertisement  with capital letters in a double-height 
> double-wide font that says "big big savings" or something similar, I hear 
> this:
> 
> B I G  S A V I N G S
> 
> without the spaces, of course. Every time I read something with the phrase 
> "MAC address," I hear "M A C address." The setting to which you refer is only 
> for single letters. The above examples are the kinds of things I want 
> eliminated.
> 
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Re: Question about VoiceOver and words in all capital letters

2018-04-20 Thread Steve Matzura 

On 4/19/2018 9:33 PM, E.T. wrote:
   I think VO as it stands, handles this properly. I opened a document 
in TextEdit and entered several acronyms. VO read them as expected, 
for example it reads ACLU as A C L U. There is a setting you might 
look at in VO Utility, Verbosity category, Text tab. It's an option 
that affects how capital letters are handled.


But that's single letters. Whenever I run into something in all capital 
letters, like an advertisement  with capital letters in a double-height 
double-wide font that says "big big savings" or something similar, I 
hear this:


B I G  S A V I N G S

without the spaces, of course. Every time I read something with the 
phrase "MAC address," I hear "M A C address." The setting to which you 
refer is only for single letters. The above examples are the kinds of 
things I want eliminated.


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Re: Question about VoiceOver and words in all capital letters

2018-04-19 Thread E.T. 
   I think VO as it stands, handles this properly. I opened a document 
in TextEdit and entered several acronyms. VO read them as expected, for 
example it reads ACLU as A C L U. There is a setting you might look at 
in VO Utility, Verbosity category, Text tab. It's an option that affects 
how capital letters are handled.


From E.T.'s Keyboard...
   ancient.ali...@icloud.com
Many believe that we have been visited
in the past. What if it were true?

On 4/19/2018 12:27 PM, Steve Matzura wrote:
I've just been through all the settings in the VO Utility on Mac OS HS, 
not to mention the VO item in System Preferences, and I cannot for the 
life of me find a setting that controls how words written in all capital 
letters are handled. Where is that, please?




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RE: Question about VoiceOver and words in all capital letters

2018-04-19 Thread Simon Fogarty 
Wouldn’t that be more of a dictionary or spell check type thing?

You should however be able to get vo to tell you a word is in full caps.

From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com <macvisionaries@googlegroups.com> On 
Behalf Of John Panarese
Sent: Friday, 20 April 2018 7:57 AM
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Question about VoiceOver and words in all capital letters

   I stand corrected if I am wrong, but to my knowledge, there are no VO 
settings for all caps words. You can change how capital letters are handled, 
but I don't recall anything that relates to an all caps word.


Take Care

John D. Panarese
Director
Mac for the Blind
Tel, (631) 724-4479
Email, j...@macfortheblind.com<mailto:j...@macfortheblind.com>
Website, http://www.macfortheblind.com

APPLE CERTIFIED SUPPORT PROFESSIONAL and Trainer

AUTHORIZED APPLE STORE BUSINESS AFFILIATE

MAC and iOS VOICEOVER TRAINING AND SUPPORT



On Apr 19, 2018, at 3:27 PM, Steve Matzura 
<numb...@noisynotes.com<mailto:numb...@noisynotes.com>> wrote:

I've just been through all the settings in the VO Utility on Mac OS HS, not to 
mention the VO item in System Preferences, and I cannot for the life of me find 
a setting that controls how words written in all capital letters are handled. 
Where is that, please?

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Re: Question about VoiceOver and words in all capital letters

2018-04-19 Thread John Panarese 
   I stand corrected if I am wrong, but to my knowledge, there are no VO 
settings for all caps words. You can change how capital letters are handled, 
but I don't recall anything that relates to an all caps word.


Take Care

John D. Panarese
Director
Mac for the Blind
Tel, (631) 724-4479
Email, j...@macfortheblind.com
Website, http://www.macfortheblind.com

APPLE CERTIFIED SUPPORT PROFESSIONAL and Trainer

AUTHORIZED APPLE STORE BUSINESS AFFILIATE

MAC and iOS VOICEOVER TRAINING AND SUPPORT



> On Apr 19, 2018, at 3:27 PM, Steve Matzura  wrote:
> 
> I've just been through all the settings in the VO Utility on Mac OS HS, not 
> to mention the VO item in System Preferences, and I cannot for the life of me 
> find a setting that controls how words written in all capital letters are 
> handled. Where is that, please?
> 
> -- 
> The following information is important for all members of the Mac Visionaries 
> list.
> 
> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
> moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
> 
> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark at:  
> mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at 
> caraqu...@caraquinn.com
> 
> The archives for this list can be searched at:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/
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Question about VoiceOver and words in all capital letters

2018-04-19 Thread Steve Matzura 
I've just been through all the settings in the VO Utility on Mac OS HS, 
not to mention the VO item in System Preferences, and I cannot for the 
life of me find a setting that controls how words written in all capital 
letters are handled. Where is that, please?


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