Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman and Gmane ?

[Terri Oda]

John Fitzsimons wrote:

I have also contributed to public, and private, newsgroup servers for
more than ten years now. However, I am not a unix expert and I do 
not have root access to a unix server.  


Incidentally, if the problem is just one of access to a unix machine, 
the Systers group had a really nice little set up where they had a linux 
virtual machine, running mailman, set up to run in virtualbox.  That 
meant we could do testing on all the laptops: mac/windows/solaris/etc.


I totally understand if you don't have time to learn all this stuff, but 
if you're willing to learn, you can install virtualbox 
(http://www.virtualbox.org/), get a linux vm (or install one yourself -- 
I usually recommend Ubuntu for a quick and easy install), and install 
Mailman.  It's a bit time consuming, but it's not actually as hard as 
instructions make it sound, generally speaking.


There may be some instructions or links to the vms we were using here 
(or elsewhere in the systers wiki):


http://systers.org/systers-soc/doku.php/getting_started

With all your testing experience, it'd be totally awesome if you could 
grab the new mailman 3 alpha and test that!  And at worst, if you don't 
manage to get it running, you're still testing the instructions and 
that's still totally useful. :)


 Terri
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman and Gmane ?

[John Fitzsimons]

On Tue, 19 Jan 2010 23:35:32 -0500, Barry Warsaw wrote:
 
>On Jan 20, 2010, at 03:11 PM, John Fitzsimons wrote:

Hi Barry,

>>Yes, but there are "resources" for people to create web forums.
>>"Resources" for people to create emailers. "Resources" for people to
>>create bloggs etc.

>I mean "people to hack code". :)

Ah ! Those types of "resources" . < vbg >

< snip >

>>If you mean that Mailman could provide NNTP access to it's message
>>store then that would be great !!!

>Yep, that's exactly what I mean and I agree it would be cool.

Good. The only two issues that immediately come to mind is to provide
a "user option" to change the port number. (for those who don't have
root access to their Mailman server) and authentication.

>>This sort of thing HAS been done by others. A combined database that
>>can have it's messages accessed as web forum posts, emails, news posts
>>etc. 

>Hey, if there's stuff we can steal or integrate with, all the better!  I have
>a saying: "the best bass amp there is, is the one you don't have to bring". :)

I would love to say that there is an open source item that you could
look at, but I cannot. It is "commercial". Probably.

It started with http://macrobyte.net/ and then went to..
http://www.free-conversant.com/index

However, there is a VERY small glimmer of hope if you read the Updated
3/30/2006 entry at..

http://conversant.macrobyte.net/

< snip >

>That's cool.  There are /lots/ of opportunities for folks to contribute to
>Mailman that doesn't include coding.  

Well, I have provided FAQs on web pages to help people. I need to know
Mailman a bit better though to be of worthwhile help. I am still a
"newbie". A GUI one at that !

>We have a wiki that needs constant
>gardening, and would love to be fleshed out with ideas on integrating Mailman
>with existing forum software, blogs, etc.  

That interests me too. Web forum < > mailing list mirroring already
exists in the commercial world.

>We have lots of documentation that
>needs writing or improving, or converting to Sphinx.  There's testing to be
>done, web user interfaces to design, etc. etc.

>If coding's not your thing, I invite you to find some other area of interest
>and dig in!

Okay, thanks for the suggestions. As I get more knowledge I will see
if/where I can help.


Regards, John.
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman and Gmane ?

[Barry Warsaw]

On Jan 19, 2010, at 08:23 PM, Carl Zwanzig wrote:

>On 1/19/2010 8:11 PM, John Fitzsimons wrote:
>
>> If you mean that Mailman could provide NNTP access to it's message
>> store then that would be great !!!
>
>Here's the catch- mailman is a mailing list manager (or remailer, if you 
>prefer), not a message storage system, so it doesn't -have- a persistent 
>message store. There may be a list archive, but that isn't something that 
>would be easily accessible on a per message ID basis (w/o a bunch of extra 
>hackery).  If the existing archive function was replaced by a database-type 
>thing, that could allow the sort of access that I think you want, but that's 
>also outside the scope of list management. You might want to look into the 
>replacement archivers to see if they do what you want.

Mailman-with-Pipermail sort of does have this now, but it's in a silo that's
not really accessible outside that small part of the system.  I've already
defined a message store interface (which may or may not be sufficient), and
storing messages there is exactly what I want to do.

Besides, I think the state of open source archivers is sadly very lacking.

-Barry



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Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman and Gmane ?

[Barry Warsaw]

On Jan 20, 2010, at 03:11 PM, John Fitzsimons wrote:

>Hi Barry,

Hi John,

>Yes, but there are "resources" for people to create web forums.
>"Resources" for people to create emailers. "Resources" for people to
>create bloggs etc.

I mean "people to hack code". :)

>> I like Gmane personally, but I really want
>>Mailman 3 to have an optional NNTP server vending messages from its message
>>store. 
>
>If you mean that Mailman could provide NNTP access to it's message
>store then that would be great !!!

Yep, that's exactly what I mean and I agree it would be cool.

>This sort of thing HAS been done by others. A combined database that
>can have it's messages accessed as web forum posts, emails, news posts
>etc. 

Hey, if there's stuff we can steal or integrate with, all the better!  I have
a saying: "the best bass amp there is, is the one you don't have to bring". :)

>The huge advantage of this approach is that all forums are updated
>together. No need to poll one forum to update to another. Also, only
>one DB is needed. Instead of potentially three, or more. 
>
>The "Conversant" people call all this "Internet groupware".

If there's existing free software we can write some glue for, all the better.
What's out there that we can use?

>> I actually don't think it's that hard, it'll just take some
>>engineering.  My plan is to use the NNTP server in Twisted as the core network
>>service, but I'm open to suggestions.
>
>Get started yesterday ?   :-)

Lessee, hmm, nope I'm not getting paid to work on this stuff! :)

>I am very happy to help out. I have been a beta tester for a number of
>freeware, and commercial, programs over the years. I also have some
>experience of news (proxy servers).
>
>I have also contributed to public, and private, newsgroup servers for
>more than ten years now. However, I am not a unix expert and I do 
>not have root access to a unix server.  
>
>I have subscribed to mailman-developers but haven't noticed any
>threads on NNTP access to the Mailman DB.  
>
>So, unfortunately, I think my "contribution" may be limited to
>encouragement and suggestions/ideas.  :-(

That's cool.  There are /lots/ of opportunities for folks to contribute to
Mailman that doesn't include coding.  We have a wiki that needs constant
gardening, and would love to be fleshed out with ideas on integrating Mailman
with existing forum software, blogs, etc.  We have lots of documentation that
needs writing or improving, or converting to Sphinx.  There's testing to be
done, web user interfaces to design, etc. etc.

If coding's not your thing, I invite you to find some other area of interest
and dig in!

-Barry



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Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman and Gmane ?

[Carl Zwanzig]

On 1/19/2010 8:11 PM, John Fitzsimons wrote:


If you mean that Mailman could provide NNTP access to it's message
store then that would be great !!!


Here's the catch- mailman is a mailing list manager (or remailer, if you 
prefer), not a message storage system, so it doesn't -have- a persistent 
message store. There may be a list archive, but that isn't something that 
would be easily accessible on a per message ID basis (w/o a bunch of extra 
hackery).  If the existing archive function was replaced by a database-type 
thing, that could allow the sort of access that I think you want, but that's 
also outside the scope of list management. You might want to look into the 
replacement archivers to see if they do what you want.


z!
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman and Gmane ?

[John Fitzsimons]

On Tue, 19 Jan 2010 22:23:17 -0500, Barry Warsaw wrote:
 
>On Jan 20, 2010, at 11:14 AM, John Fitzsimons wrote:

Hi Barry,

>>It is a pity that nobody in the open source community is interested in
>>creating an NNTP server that someone, who isn't a unix expert, could
>>install on a "hosted" web site.  :-(

>I wouldn't say no one is interested, but there doesn't seem to be the
>resources to make it happen. 

Yes, but there are "resources" for people to create web forums.
"Resources" for people to create emailers. "Resources" for people to
create bloggs etc.

> I like Gmane personally, but I really want
>Mailman 3 to have an optional NNTP server vending messages from its message
>store. 

If you mean that Mailman could provide NNTP access to it's message
store then that would be great !!!

This sort of thing HAS been done by others. A combined database that
can have it's messages accessed as web forum posts, emails, news posts
etc. 

The huge advantage of this approach is that all forums are updated
together. No need to poll one forum to update to another. Also, only
one DB is needed. Instead of potentially three, or more. 

The "Conversant" people call all this "Internet groupware".

> I actually don't think it's that hard, it'll just take some
>engineering.  My plan is to use the NNTP server in Twisted as the core network
>service, but I'm open to suggestions.

Get started yesterday ?   :-)

>Come on over to mailman-developers if you want to help out.

I am very happy to help out. I have been a beta tester for a number of
freeware, and commercial, programs over the years. I also have some
experience of news (proxy servers).

I have also contributed to public, and private, newsgroup servers for
more than ten years now. However, I am not a unix expert and I do 
not have root access to a unix server.  

I have subscribed to mailman-developers but haven't noticed any
threads on NNTP access to the Mailman DB.  

So, unfortunately, I think my "contribution" may be limited to
encouragement and suggestions/ideas.  :-(


Regards, John.
 
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman and Gmane ?

[John Fitzsimons]

On Wed, 20 Jan 2010 00:57:33 +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
 
>John Fitzsimons writes:

< snip >

> > I shouldn't have got that second email, or had my newsgroup post
> > forwarded to the newsgroup.

> > Can anyone here suggest where the problem may be please ?

>List membership is easy to spoof anyway.  The only way to control
>traffic to your list is to moderate it.

> > As well as to suggest a way to fix it please ?

>Moderate the GMane subscription.

< snip >

Does anyone here know what actually goes to Mailman from Gmane ?

(1) Is it simply an email, with Gmane as the sender ? With no mention
of the newsgroup poster in any of the headers ?

OR

(2) Is there anything contained in any of the headers from Gmane that
refers to the newsgroup poster ?

I know some of you unix guys are pretty smart. Has anyone been able to
see/grep these headers to see what they say please ?

The reason I ask is because couldn't I potentially block all posts
from Gmane ? Then in my Privacy options - accept_these_nonmembers 
add the names of "authorised" subscribers ?

The "accept_these_nonmembers" in CPanel appears to allow regexp
filtering so the subscriber info could be anywhere in the "address".

[Also what exactly is the "address" Mailman is talking about here ?
The From: line ? Or all the headers ?]

Any comments on any/all of the above appreciated. 

Regards, John.
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman and Gmane ?

[Barry Warsaw]

On Jan 20, 2010, at 11:14 AM, John Fitzsimons wrote:

>It is a pity that nobody in the open source community is interested in
>creating an NNTP server that someone, who isn't a unix expert, could
>install on a "hosted" web site.  :-(

I wouldn't say no one is interested, but there doesn't seem to be the
resources to make it happen.  I like Gmane personally, but I really want
Mailman 3 to have an optional NNTP server vending messages from its message
store.  I actually don't think it's that hard, it'll just take some
engineering.  My plan is to use the NNTP server in Twisted as the core network
service, but I'm open to suggestions.

Come on over to mailman-developers if you want to help out.

-Barry


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Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman and Gmane ?

[Stephen J. Turnbull]

John Fitzsimons writes:

 > >List membership is easy to spoof anyway.  
 > 
 > Umm. I was beginning to wonder about that. I am familiar with usenet
 > spoofing but hadn't thought deeply enough about that situation in
 > email.  :-(
 > 
 > If I understand you correctly then anyone can post to any unmoderated
 > emailing list by simply spoofing someone who is authorised to post ?

Yes.  There are ways that authentication could be made stronger, but
if you allow posting via GMane, you're pretty much done in.

 > >The only way to control traffic to your list is to moderate it.
 > 
 > Okay, of course that is quite impractical.

I wouldn't go so far as to say "of course" in general.  There may be
other ways to do it.  For example my lists are moderated on a round
the clock basis using the device of one moderator in Japan, one in
Germany, and one in California.  Such convenience is unlikely to be
available to you, but perhaps there are trusted members who keep odd
hours, etc.  Be creative!

 > > > As well as to suggest a way to fix it please ?
 > 
 > >Moderate the GMane subscription.
 > 
 > Okay, that however would pretty much kill the mailing list. If someone
 > posted while I was asleep then they would have to wait hours for my
 > "okay".

You'd have to get Mark or Barry to comment (and you supply a copy of
the GMane test post as it arrived at Mailman, it's in the mbox file),
but I suspect that the reason that this works as it does is the
"Sender" check.  So as long as your users always appear in From, you
could disable the Sender check and moderate GMane.

You'd still be subject to member spoofing, so you'd have to do spam
and virus filtering on the front end (it's worth great effort on your
part to doit in the incoming MTA).

 > It is a pity that nobody in the open source community is interested in
 > creating an NNTP server that someone, who isn't a unix expert, could
 > install on a "hosted" web site.  :-(

It's not about the NNTP server or package installation and
configuration.  Any GNU/Linux distro makes that easy enough.  It's
about the hosting services.  This is a job for cPanel, not for the
newsserver developers or Mailman developers. :-(

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman and Gmane ?

[John Fitzsimons]

On Wed, 20 Jan 2010 00:57:33 +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
 
>John Fitzsimons writes:

Hi Stephen,

> > Then I got the next Gmane email...
 
> > "You are now authorized to post to the
> > xx newsgroup." etc.
 
> > I shouldn't have got that second email, or had my newsgroup post
> > forwarded to the newsgroup.

> > Can anyone here suggest where the problem may be please ?

>List membership is easy to spoof anyway.  

Umm. I was beginning to wonder about that. I am familiar with usenet
spoofing but hadn't thought deeply enough about that situation in
email.  :-(

If I understand you correctly then anyone can post to any unmoderated
emailing list by simply spoofing someone who is authorised to post ?

>The only way to control traffic to your list is to moderate it.

Okay, of course that is quite impractical. I cannot be around to
"authorise" posts 24 hours a day.  :-(  I am now beginning to see one
of the reasons why those abominations called web boards are so
popular.

> > As well as to suggest a way to fix it please ?

>Moderate the GMane subscription.

Okay, that however would pretty much kill the mailing list. If someone
posted while I was asleep then they would have to wait hours for my
"okay".

> > So it "appears" to be setup correctly.
 
> > Can anyone here help me with this please ?

>GMane has a bad reputation around here for not respecting the wishes
>of list owners.  It's very convenient for your users, but if you allow
>GMane to gateway to your list, you are at their mercy.

Unfortunately, like the majority of internet users who have limited
finances, I have no choice. They are the only people in the world,
that I know of, who enable people to have a free NNTP server 
access.

>I don't have strong anti-GMane feelings myself; I consider it a
>valuable service to my lists.

Agreed. Unless you have money, and/or are a unix expert with root
access somewhere, your choices for private newsgroups other than 
Gmane are zero.

It is a pity that nobody in the open source community is interested in
creating an NNTP server that someone, who isn't a unix expert, could
install on a "hosted" web site.  :-(

Thank you for your feedback.

Regards, John.
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Re: [Mailman-Users] List information templates - offer of help

[Barry Warsaw]

On Jan 19, 2010, at 02:58 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:

>We would welcome your help on the web interface for MM 3. A new
>interface will be built from the ground up. Perhaps Barry can suggest
>some ways for you to be involved.

Mark's exactly right.  Lindsay is too! ;)

I'd say the first thing to do is to join mailman-developers.  Today or
tomorrow I should be sending an email to kick off the new Mailman 3 web ui
effort.

-Barry


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Re: [Mailman-Users] List information templates - offer of help

[Mark Sapiro]

Lindsay Haisley wrote:

>I just did a bit of work on the English listinfo.html template for one
>of my lists (Mailman 2.1.12).  It's been a while since I worked on one
>of these, but I note that the HTML is a terrible mess, and years out of
>date with current standards and best practice for HTML composition.
>This may work in most browsers, but make editing the document a PITA.
[...]
>Would it be helpful if I were to work on cleaning up and modernizing
>this document and submit it to the Mailman devs?  I do HTML composition
>and authorship professionally and do this kind of thing every day or so.
>Or perhaps a reworking of the document is already in the pipeline 


Mailman 2.2 was intended to have a new web interface, but that release
is officially dead in favor of concentrating development on Mailman 3.

The web interface and templates for Mailman 2.1 will not be changed
except perhaps for minor tweaking.

We would welcome your help on the web interface for MM 3. A new
interface will be built from the ground up. Perhaps Barry can suggest
some ways for you to be involved.

-- 
Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan

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[Mailman-Users] List information templates - offer of help

[Lindsay Haisley]

I just did a bit of work on the English listinfo.html template for one
of my lists (Mailman 2.1.12).  It's been a while since I worked on one
of these, but I note that the HTML is a terrible mess, and years out of
date with current standards and best practice for HTML composition.
This may work in most browsers, but make editing the document a PITA.

* Indentation, which is supposed to aid with tag matching for human
editors, is rather inconsistent (to put it mildly ;-)

* Modern HTML documents should have a  declaration, which
isn't present.

* The  tag is used to generate a section indent.  Modern HTML uses a
style.

* The case of tags and attribute names is inconsistent and difficult to
follow.  Modern usage, consistent with XHTML, requires all tags and
attributes to be lower case.  Even for HTML 4.01 transitional, it would
be a good idea to make the case of tags match throughout the document.

* Form tags are crossed with table tags.  This is, I believe, out of
spec, and "results may vary".

* There are a number of other HTML usage irregularities which should be
corrected, such as the deprecated use of the  tag without a matching
 end tag.

Would it be helpful if I were to work on cleaning up and modernizing
this document and submit it to the Mailman devs?  I do HTML composition
and authorship professionally and do this kind of thing every day or so.
Or perhaps a reworking of the document is already in the pipeline 

I could only do the English version, since this is the only language I
speak.

Additionally, it seems that mailing lists have come into common use by
and for people with little computer experience, and especially for
distribution lists, choices such as those associated with subscriber
lists and digests are irrelevant and potentially off-putting to these
folks, and it should be possible to present a list info form with only a
description of the list, plus the options of subscribing, unsubscribing
and contacting the list owner.  For perhaps 90% of the lists out there,
I'd guess that these are all that are needed.

One more note.  I note that replacement tokens in this document are
delimited with angle brackets, much as are HTML tags.  Would it not be
better to use some other delimiter such as curly-braces or square
brackets, as do other HTML templating systems?

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Puzzle Regarding Sender Header

[David Eisner]

On Fri, Jan 15, 2010 at 10:23 PM, Mark Sapiro  wrote:
> Your MTA is rewriting the domain in the Sender: header. The FAQ at
>  might be relevant.

This puts me on the right track: Sendmail is definitely rewriting the
headers.  I verified this by sending a message from the server (no
mailman involved), and it rewrite the header.  The FAQ isn't entirely
relevant, as no CNAME is involved (lists.foo.org is a full-fledged A
record), but it's clearly a sendmail config issue.  Thanks for your
help.

-David
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Re: [Mailman-Users] [Mailman-i18n] RELEASED GNU Mailman 3.0 alpha 5 (Distant Early Warning)

[Barry Warsaw]

On Jan 19, 2010, at 04:17 PM, Marcos wrote:

>Must be the Asturian language in the version 3? :)
>Can you confirm if is it an error, please?
>Thanks very much!

There is currently only English in Mailman 3.  We'll begin to do translations
on Launchpad, but I haven't hooked all that up yet.  It's on my list. ;)

-Barry


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[Mailman-Users] Mailman and Gmane ?

[Stephen J. Turnbull]

John Fitzsimons writes:

 > Then I got the next Gmane email...
 > 
 > "You are now authorized to post to the
 > xx newsgroup." etc.
 > 
 > I shouldn't have got that second email, or had my newsgroup post
 > forwarded to the newsgroup.

 > Can anyone here suggest where the problem may be please ?

List membership is easy to spoof anyway.  The only way to control
traffic to your list is to moderate it.

 > As well as to suggest a way to fix it please ?

Moderate the GMane subscription.

 > So it "appears" to be setup correctly.
 > 
 > Can anyone here help me with this please ?

GMane has a bad reputation around here for not respecting the wishes
of list owners.  It's very convenient for your users, but if you allow
GMane to gateway to your list, you are at their mercy.

I don't have strong anti-GMane feelings myself; I consider it a
valuable service to my lists.


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[Mailman-Users] Mailman and Gmane ?

[John Fitzsimons]

I am hoping that someone here has an account with Gmane.

This is what I did.

Doing beta testing. I posted to my newsgroup from an address that 
is NOT on my mailing list.

I then got the Gmane "Authorization required " email which starts..

This is a non-public mailing list, which means that you have to
subscribe to the list to post to it..

Knowing I wasn't subscribed with that address I "replied". To see 
what would happen.

Then I got the next Gmane email...

"You are now authorized to post to the
xx newsgroup." etc.

I shouldn't have got that second email, or had my newsgroup post
forwarded to the newsgroup.

Can anyone here suggest where the problem may be please ? As 
well as to suggest a way to fix it please ? 

The list was originally setup as a "confirm" subscription list but is
now a "Require approval" list.

This is what the subscription page says...

Subscribe to x by filling out the following form. This is a
closed list, which means your subscription will be held for approval.
You will be notified of the list moderator's decision by email.

So it "appears" to be setup correctly.

Can anyone here help me with this please ?


Regards, John.
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[Mailman-Users] RELEASED GNU Mailman 3.0 alpha 5 (Distant Early Warning)

[Barry Warsaw]

Hello everyone, welcome to 2010 and another Mailman 3 alpha release.

I'm happy to announce Mailman 3.0 alpha 5.  New in this release are additional
REST API methods for subscribing and unsubscribing email addresses to mailing
lists, and for listing all members of all mailing lists.  Mailman also
properly handles the -join, -leave, and -confirm email commands and
sub-addresses (-subscribe and -unsubscribe are aliases for -join and -leave).

A few more command line scripts have been renamed, a 'devmode' setting has
been added, and Mailman now searches for its configuration file using this
search order:

   -C config command line argument
   $MAILMAN_CONFIG_FILE environment variable
   ./mailman.cfg
   ~/.mailman.cfg
   /etc/mailman.cfg

As always, you can download the tarball from the Cheeseshop or Launchpad:

http://pypi.python.org/pypi/mailman
https://launchpad.net/mailman

Documentation is available here:

http://packages.python.org/mailman

Enjoy,
-Barry



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