[Mailman-Users] Mailman reusing message-id, leads to duplicate message suppression
Hi! Mailman re-uses the message-id of the original email. In our case an exchange user is recipient of two mailing-lists. Both mails are adressed in the original message, both lists distribute the list, two emails having the same message-id arrive at the Exchange server, which seems to discard the second mail. Who's to blame? Mailman for re-using the message-id? Exchange for dropping the sencond mail on the floor? Logs: Mailman generates two mails (note the different Subject: lines): Nov 5 07:22:47 webmail postfix/cleanup[14648]: CE5BB4C80: warning: header Subject: [Rundmail Virchow-Klinikum] Nervenarztpokal from localhost.localdomain[127.0.0.1]; from=rundmail-neuro-cvk-bounces+annette.sch=charite...@charite.de to=annette.schx...@charite.de proto=ESMTP helo=webmail.charite.de Nov 5 07:22:50 webmail postfix/cleanup[14650]: 1165D4E03: warning: header Subject: [Rundmail MITTE] Nervenarztpokal from localhost.localdomain[127.0.0.1]; from=rundmail-neuro-ccm-bounces+annette.sch=charite...@charite.de to=annette.schx...@charite.de proto=ESMTP helo=webmail.charite.de and sends them (note the identical message-id in the 250 2.6.0 response): Nov 5 07:23:29 webmail postfix/smtp[14564]: CE5BB4C80: to=schxx...@exchange.charite.de, orig_to=annette.schx...@charite.de, relay=s-mx14-ht01.charite.de[10.32.37.105]:25, delay=41, delays=0/39/0.05/2.1, dsn=2.6.0, status=sent (250 2.6.0 0cfda44554ab664bb2cad4064f9c5b409c1c2f3...@exchange41.charite.de [InternalId=22196600] Queued mail for delivery) Nov 5 07:23:48 webmail postfix/smtp[14576]: 1165D4E03: to=schxx...@exchange.charite.de, orig_to=annette.schx...@charite.de, relay=s-mx14-ht01.charite.de[10.32.37.105]:25, delay=58, delays=0.01/55/0.06/3.4, dsn=2.6.0, status=sent (250 2.6.0 0cfda44554ab664bb2cad4064f9c5b409c1c2f3...@exchange41.charite.de [InternalId=22196727] Queued mail for delivery) Exchange only delivers one (the first) to the user's mailbox. -- Ralf Hildebrandt Charite Universitätsmedizin Berlin ralf.hildebra...@charite.deCampus Benjamin Franklin http://www.charite.de Hindenburgdamm 30, 12203 Berlin Geschäftsbereich IT, Abt. Netzwerk fon: +49-30-450.570.155 -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman reusing message-id, leads to duplicate message suppression
On 11/5/13, 4:25 AM, Ralf Hildebrandt wrote: Hi! Mailman re-uses the message-id of the original email. In our case an exchange user is recipient of two mailing-lists. Both mails are adressed in the original message, both lists distribute the list, two emails having the same message-id arrive at the Exchange server, which seems to discard the second mail. Who's to blame? Mailman for re-using the message-id? Exchange for dropping the sencond mail on the floor? This is really a tough problem. Presumably, since mailman doesn't significantly alter the message (which is one reason it is allowed to maintain the message-id) it should really matter that the recipient only gets one copy of the message, or which one. The source of the problem is that maintaining the message-id is important for message references which are used for threading to work well. People who are CC to the message, and use the copy they got directly, and reply back to the list, will want there reply marked as a reply to the list message. This REQUIRES that the message given to the list have the same message-id as the incoming message. The idea of dropping second copies of messages also can make some sense, if you already have a message, do you really need a second copy? This is almost absolutely right if the two copies are due to being listed twice in the distribution, or the duplication due to automatic verbatim forwarding from one address to another. It isn't quite so for sure in the case of mailing list, or if the user wanted to compare things like received headers to compare path ways. I suspect that the people implementing this feature really didn't think about the mailing list case. Note that another use of message-ids, in Usenet, has slightly different rules, and there it is vital that duplicate message-ids be dropped due to the fact that a multi-peered server should normally get many duplicate message-ids from the various peers. But in Usenet, you don't have the case of a central mailing list hub, gathering messages, being allowed to make administrative changes, and then redistributing. I don't think Microsoft is reusing Usenet code, but someone may have been confused by Usenet RFCs, and applied them to email, whose system has a lot of similarity (and even share some RFCs), but IS a different system. In conclusion, the fault probably is on the mail system, but they can probably claim they had good reasons to do it. Hopefully there is a way to turn off the option if really needed. This is also a problem with Google, which does the same thing, with no option to turn it off. The problem more often shows up there by people wonder why their messages don't make it to the list, because Google removed the list distributed one, because the poster had a copy of the message in their outbox. -- Richard Damon -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman reusing message-id, leads to duplicate message suppression
* Richard Damon rich...@damon-family.org: This is really a tough problem. Presumably, since mailman doesn't significantly alter the message (which is one reason it is allowed to maintain the message-id) it should really matter that the recipient only gets one copy of the message, or which one. Yes, only the Subject is slightly being altered. The idea of dropping second copies of messages also can make some sense, if you already have a message, do you really need a second copy? This is almost absolutely right if the two copies are due to being listed twice in the distribution, or the duplication due to automatic verbatim forwarding from one address to another. It isn't quite so for sure in the case of mailing list, or if the user wanted to compare things like received headers to compare path ways. I suspect that the people implementing this feature really didn't think about the mailing list case. Or the users wants to check if the message has indeed been distributed via two or more mailing lists! In conclusion, the fault probably is on the mail system, but they can probably claim they had good reasons to do it. Hopefully there is a way to turn off the option if really needed. There's not way of turning this off on Exchange -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman reusing message-id, leads to duplicate message suppression
--On November 5, 2013 10:25:20 AM +0100 Ralf Hildebrandt ralf.hildebra...@charite.de wrote: Who's to blame? Mailman for re-using the message-id? Exchange for dropping the second mail on the floor? The messages are duplicates, so they should have the same Message-ID. Whether to suppress delivery of duplicates is the choice of an end user, or a system administrator, or a software designer. I don't know which applies to Exchange. But in order to allow the choice, which is correctly a choice to be made at the receiving end, the dups have to be sent with the same Message-ID. I wouldn't say 'blame'. Joseph Brennan Columbia University I T -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman reusing message-id, leads to duplicate message suppression
On Nov 05, 2013, at 02:46 PM, Ralf Hildebrandt wrote: There's not way of turning this off on Exchange Sounds like the same bit of helpfulness that Gmail performs. http://wiki.list.org/x/2IA9 It's a tough problem, but I think Mailman's retention of the original Message-Ids is the right-er approach. Cheers, -Barry signature.asc Description: PGP signature -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman reusing message-id, leads to duplicate message suppression
* Barry Warsaw ba...@python.org: On Nov 05, 2013, at 02:46 PM, Ralf Hildebrandt wrote: There's not way of turning this off on Exchange Sounds like the same bit of helpfulness that Gmail performs. http://wiki.list.org/x/2IA9 It's a tough problem, but I think Mailman's retention of the original Message-Ids is the right-er approach. Strictly speaking, all that womand wanted was to know if the message passed both mailing lists... So she should have more faith :) -- Ralf Hildebrandt Charite Universitätsmedizin Berlin ralf.hildebra...@charite.deCampus Benjamin Franklin http://www.charite.de Hindenburgdamm 30, 12203 Berlin Geschäftsbereich IT, Abt. Netzwerk fon: +49-30-450.570.155 -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] unable to start Mailman
Mark, Thanks! I was able to start using /usr/lib/mailman/bin/mailmanctl start--without any problem. I have only have one mailman instance installed on this server and now, it still does not show all my lists though. Any suggestions. Thanks! Charles On Mon, Nov 4, 2013 at 9:45 PM, Mark Sapiro m...@msapiro.net wrote: On 11/04/2013 11:03 AM, c cc wrote: I start Mailman using: service start mailman in CENTOS 6.4. Which is almost certainly starting a different Mailman installation than the one which has your lists. Start mailman by running 'bin/mailmanctl start' from the same bin/ directory in which bin/list_lists shows your lists. If that works, then as Adam suggests, fix /etc/init.d/mailman to point to the Mailman you want. Or, move your lists to the place that the RedHat/CentOS packaged Mailman it probably runs expects to find them. (see http://wiki.list.org/x/KYCB. -- Mark Sapiro m...@msapiro.netThe highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/subads%40gmail.com -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] unable to start Mailman
Mark, It seems like /etc/init.d/mailman and /etc/rc.d/mailman both are runing /usr/lib/mailman/bin/mailmanctl, as you can you below: MAILMANHOME=/usr/lib/mailman MAILMANCTL=$MAILMANHOME/bin/mailmanctl Here how I moved my lists over to the new server: 1. I renamed the /usr/lib/mailman to mailman.org 2. ln -s /mnt/ebs/volume/mailman /var/lib/mailman 3 tarred up the /usr/lib/mailman/* mailman directory in the old server 4.then untarred archives, data, lists, and spam folders to the //mnt/ebs-volume/mailman folder, which is linked to the /usr/lib/mailman folder. ]# sudo find / -name mailman /usr/lib/mailman /usr/lib/mailman/mail/mailman /usr/lib/mailman/scripts/mailman /var/spool/mailman /var/lib/mailman /var/run/mailman /var/log/mailman /var/lock/mailman /mnt/ebs-volume/mailman /mnt/ebs-volume/mailman/lists/list_name_from_old_dns/lib/mailman /mnt/ebs-volume/mailman/lists/mailman /mnt/ebs-volume/mailman/archives/private/mailman /mnt/ebs-volume/mailman/archives/public/mailman /mnt/ebs-volume/mailman/archives/archive_from_old_dns/lib/mailman /etc/cron.d/mailman /etc/rc.d/init.d/mailman /etc/mailman /etc/smrsh/mailman /etc/logrotate.d/mailman Using the command line list_lists, it does show all the list, but the lists do not show up on the web interface. I apologize for the confusion. Once again, thanks for your help. Charles On Tue, Nov 5, 2013 at 12:44 PM, Mark Sapiro m...@msapiro.net wrote: On 11/05/2013 10:34 AM, c cc wrote: Thanks! I was able to start using /usr/lib/mailman/bin/mailmanctl start--without any problem. So 'service mailman start' which runs the script at /etc/init.d/mailman (or /etc/rc.d/init.d/mailman) is running a different mailmanctl. Look at that script and its included files see what mailmanctl it runs. I have only have one mailman instance installed on this server and now, it still does not show all my lists though. Any suggestions. Thanks! How did you move your lists from the old server? where are they? what does 'sudo find / -name mailman' show? What doesn't show all your list?. At https://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2013-November/075718.html you said 'list_lists shows all my lists'. -- Mark Sapiro m...@msapiro.netThe highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] unable to start Mailman
On Tue, 2013-11-05 at 13:14 -0600, c cc wrote: Mark, It seems like /etc/init.d/mailman and /etc/rc.d/mailman both are runing /usr/lib/mailman/bin/mailmanctl, as you can you below: MAILMANHOME=/usr/lib/mailman MAILMANCTL=$MAILMANHOME/bin/mailmanctl Here how I moved my lists over to the new server: FWIW, here are the two scripts I use to move Mailman accounts, with their archives, from one computer to another. I've never had a single problem when using them and have moved a lot of lists with them. The first script creates an gzip archive of the list in /tmp, plus a marker file indicating whether or not the list's posting archive is public or private. It's called /usr/local/sbin/tar_list.sh and gets run by root to tar up the list's files. #!/bin/sh if [ $1 = ]; then echo 'Usage: tar_list.sh listname' exit fi if [ ! -e /var/lib/mailman/lists/$1 ]; then echo $1: No such list! exit fi mkdir /tmp/$1 cd /var/lib/mailman/lists/ echo Creating $1_list.tar.gz tar -czvf $1_list.tar.gz $1 mv $1_list.tar.gz /tmp/$1 cd /var/lib/mailman/archives/private/ echo Creating $1_archive.tar.gz tar -czvf $1_archive.tar.gz $1 mv $1_archive.tar.gz /tmp/$1 echo Creating $1_archive_mbox.tar.gz tar -czvf $1_archive_mbox.tar.gz $1.mbox mv $1_archive_mbox.tar.gz /tmp/$1 if [ -L /var/lib/mailman/archives/public/$1 ]; then touch /tmp/$1/$1_archive_is_public fi The second script lives in ~mailman/bin on the receiving system and is called untar_list.sh. It gets run by the mailman user, which must have a login shell, even if only temporarily. If you don't have the root password on the remote system, or if ssh is forbidden for root, then change the account name to that of an unprivileged user on line 8 and 9. #!/bin/sh if [ $2 = ]; then echo 'Usage: untar_list.sh server listname' exit fi cd ~/tmp/ echo Give root password on remote system ... scp root@$1:/tmp/$2/* . cd /var/lib/mailman/lists/ echo echo Creating list $2 ... tar -xzvpf ~/tmp/$2_list.tar.gz cd /var/lib/mailman/archives/private/ echo echo Creating archive for $2 ... tar -xzvpf ~/tmp/$2_archive.tar.gz echo Creating archive mbox for $1 ... tar -xzvpf ~/tmp/$2_archive_mbox.tar.gz if [ -e ~/tmp/$2_archive_is_public ]; then ln -s /var/lib/mailman/archives/private/$2 /var/lib/mailman/archives/public/$2 fi echo echo If no errors, delete files in ~/tmp and delete /tmp/$2 directory on remote system -- Lindsay Haisley | We have met the enemy and he is us. FMP Computer Services | 512-259-1190 | -- Pogo http://www.fmp.com| -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] unable to start Mailman
On 11/05/2013 11:14 AM, c cc wrote: It seems like /etc/init.d/mailman and /etc/rc.d/mailman both are runing /usr/lib/mailman/bin/mailmanctl, as you can you below: Do you mean /etc/rc.d/init.d/mailman? In RedHat/CentOS, /etc/init.d/ is a symlink to /etc/rc.d/init.d/. MAILMANHOME=/usr/lib/mailman MAILMANCTL=$MAILMANHOME/bin/mailmanctl So are you saying that 'service mailman start', which runs the script at /etc/rc.d/init.d/mailman, complains about the missing site list, but '/usr/lib/mailman/bin/mailmanctl start' does not complain? If so, there must be some file included by /etc/rc.d/init.d/mailman that overrides one of those definitions. Either that, or the mailmanctl that the script runs is not $MAILMANCTL. Here how I moved my lists over to the new server: 1. I renamed the /usr/lib/mailman to mailman.org http://mailman.org 2. ln -s /mnt/ebs/volume/mailman /var/lib/mailman 3 tarred up the /usr/lib/mailman/* mailman directory in the old server 4.then untarred archives, data, lists, and spam folders to the //mnt/ebs-volume/mailman folder, which is linked to the /usr/lib/mailman folder. Step 2 says /var/lib/mailman, not /usr/lib/mailman. /var/lib/mailman is the correct path to symlink. ]# sudo find / -name mailman OK Using the command line list_lists, it does show all the list, but the lists do not show up on the web interface. I apologize for the confusion. Once again, thanks for your help. No lists show up on the web interface or not all lists show up on the web interface? Are the missing lists accessible if you go to http://HOSTNAME/mailman/listinfo/LISTNAME and http://HOSTNAME/mailman/admin/LISTNAME. If so, see the FAQ at http://wiki.list.org/DOC/4.17%20Why%20are%20lists%20missing%20from%20the%20listinfo%20page%3F. -- Mark Sapiro m...@msapiro.netThe highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman reusing message-id, leads to duplicate message suppression
On 11/05/2013 07:14 AM, Ralf Hildebrandt wrote: Strictly speaking, all that womand wanted was to know if the message passed both mailing lists... So she should have more faith :) In cases like this, I suggest that the user check the list's archive. -- Mark Sapiro m...@msapiro.netThe highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] unable to start Mailman
Mark, Here what I just found out: I removed and reinstalled mailman again and just created a list named mailman--it works fine. But mailman wont' start as soon as I migrated the old lists over to the new server. Is it possible that the old lists are not compatible? By the way, the mailman version on the old server is 2..1.9 and the version on the new server is 2.1.12. Any suggestions and help would be appreciated. Once again, thanks for your help and patience. Chalres On Tue, Nov 5, 2013 at 4:24 PM, Mark Sapiro m...@msapiro.net wrote: On 11/05/2013 11:14 AM, c cc wrote: It seems like /etc/init.d/mailman and /etc/rc.d/mailman both are runing /usr/lib/mailman/bin/mailmanctl, as you can you below: Do you mean /etc/rc.d/init.d/mailman? In RedHat/CentOS, /etc/init.d/ is a symlink to /etc/rc.d/init.d/. MAILMANHOME=/usr/lib/mailman MAILMANCTL=$MAILMANHOME/bin/mailmanctl So are you saying that 'service mailman start', which runs the script at /etc/rc.d/init.d/mailman, complains about the missing site list, but '/usr/lib/mailman/bin/mailmanctl start' does not complain? If so, there must be some file included by /etc/rc.d/init.d/mailman that overrides one of those definitions. Either that, or the mailmanctl that the script runs is not $MAILMANCTL. Here how I moved my lists over to the new server: 1. I renamed the /usr/lib/mailman to mailman.org http://mailman.org 2. ln -s /mnt/ebs/volume/mailman /var/lib/mailman 3 tarred up the /usr/lib/mailman/* mailman directory in the old server 4.then untarred archives, data, lists, and spam folders to the //mnt/ebs-volume/mailman folder, which is linked to the /usr/lib/mailman folder. Step 2 says /var/lib/mailman, not /usr/lib/mailman. /var/lib/mailman is the correct path to symlink. ]# sudo find / -name mailman OK Using the command line list_lists, it does show all the list, but the lists do not show up on the web interface. I apologize for the confusion. Once again, thanks for your help. No lists show up on the web interface or not all lists show up on the web interface? Are the missing lists accessible if you go to http://HOSTNAME/mailman/listinfo/LISTNAME and http://HOSTNAME/mailman/admin/LISTNAME. If so, see the FAQ at http://wiki.list.org/DOC/4.17%20Why%20are%20lists%20missing%20from%20the%20listinfo%20page%3F . -- Mark Sapiro m...@msapiro.netThe highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman reusing message-id, leads to duplicate message suppression
Note that the subject is incorrect. Mailman is not reusing the Message-ID, it is refusing to alter it which is correct behavior according to RFC 5322 (Message-ID is an originator field). I believe that according to RFC 5322 (and predecessors) Mailman SHOULD add a Resent-Message-ID to indicate that it handled the message, but I doubt this would change the duplicate-suppression behavior of Gmail and MS Exchange. Richard Damon writes: This is really a tough problem. For us, there's nothing tough about it. Gmail is the wrong MUA to use if you want to compare mail received by different routes including the null route, otherwise it does what most users want.[1] Microsoft Exchange is not a conformant MTA, no surprise there -- it's not designed to be a conformant MTA. It's intended to be a complete internal communication solution, and where that conflicts with RFC conformance, the RFCs lose. Users will need to find ways to defend themselves against its vagaries -- there's nothing Mailman can do without breaking the world. someone [at Microsoft] may have been confused by Usenet RFCs, and applied them to email, whose system has a lot of similarity (and even share some RFCs), but IS a different system. It's highly unlikely that Microsoft thought past users don't like dealing with duplicates, and in our environment where people send 10MB attachments to ALL, they can actually crash the mail system. Just tell the user that Gmail is not a good MUA if you want to be able to check on sent mail without asking the recipient directly, and that Microsoft products deliberately trade reliable delivery in the Internet sense for what the developers consider to be the convenience of their users. Footnotes: [1] It's surprisingly difficult to handle duplicates truly gracefully. For example, I personally consider the mailing list copy to be the canonical copy of a post, but direct CCs often arrive more quickly. In many cases there has been sufficient delay that the first copy to arrive has already been filed in an archive folder by the time the duplicate arrives. This doesn't make naive duplicate suppression any harder, but it does complicate maintenance of canonical copies in my archive folders. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman reusing message-id, leads to duplicate message suppression
Ralf Hildebrandt writes: Strictly speaking, all that womand wanted was to know if the message passed both mailing lists... So she should have more faith :) For lists hosted by the same Mailman, Mailman 3 might be able to handle this by adding *both* List-Ids to the header, and only adding the (other) RFC 2369 headers for the list(s) the user is subscribed to. Of course this requires personalization, but that seems to be less and less a problem these days. If that solution is interesting to anybody, please let me know, and I'll check the relevant RFCs to see if multiple values are permissible for List-* headers (and for which ones). Code of course will depend on Barry's permission, but I suppose he wouldn't object to providing it as an option. Also of course, it's only a partial solution, as separate Mailman installations won't be able to coordinate. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] unable to start Mailman
On 11/05/2013 03:55 PM, c cc wrote: Is it possible that the old lists are not compatible? By the way, the mailman version on the old server is 2..1.9 and the version on the new server is 2.1.12. Any suggestions and help would be appreciated. Not likely and not if you can open the old list's listinfo pages http://HOSTNAME/mailman/listinfo/LISTNAME. Is is still the case that '/usr/lib/mailman/bin/mailmanctl start' will successfully start mailman, but 'service mailman start' complains about the missing site list? If so, they must not be running the same mailmanctl. -- Mark Sapiro m...@msapiro.netThe highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] unable to start Mailman
Mark, Let me clarify this: No, I can't open the old list's listinfo page, but I can see the list using list_lists command. When I did the fresh installation and created the mailman list before moving any old lists over, I was able to start mailman using: service mailman start. As soon I moved any old list over to the new server, that command (service mailman start) no longer worked so did the web interface. Is it possible that the old lists had overwritten something? Is is still the case that '/usr/lib/mailman/bin/ mailmanctl start' will successfully start mailman, but 'service mailman start' complains about the missing site list? Yes Thanks! Charles On Tue, Nov 5, 2013 at 6:57 PM, Mark Sapiro m...@msapiro.net wrote: On 11/05/2013 03:55 PM, c cc wrote: Is it possible that the old lists are not compatible? By the way, the mailman version on the old server is 2..1.9 and the version on the new server is 2.1.12. Any suggestions and help would be appreciated. Not likely and not if you can open the old list's listinfo pages http://HOSTNAME/mailman/listinfo/LISTNAME. Is is still the case that '/usr/lib/mailman/bin/mailmanctl start' will successfully start mailman, but 'service mailman start' complains about the missing site list? If so, they must not be running the same mailmanctl. -- Mark Sapiro m...@msapiro.netThe highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] unable to start Mailman
On 11/05/2013 05:19 PM, c cc wrote: Let me clarify this: No, I can't open the old list's listinfo page, but I can see the list using list_lists command. OK. When I did the fresh installation and created the mailman list before moving any old lists over, I was able to start mailman using: service mailman start. And at that point, where was the lists/mailman/config.pck file? As soon I moved any old list over to the new server, that command (service mailman start) no longer worked so did the web interface. And to where did you move those losts/LISTNAME/config.pck files. And what else did you move. My best guess is this process overwrote some critical path or symlink. Is it possible that the old lists had overwritten something? Not the lists/LISTNAME/config.pck files themselves, but something else you did. Is is still the case that '/usr/lib/mailman/bin/ mailmanctl start' will successfully start mailman, but 'service mailman start' complains about the missing site list? Yes Then the service script must be running a different mailmanctl. If this were my server, I'd 'sudo yum remove mailman', install Mailman 2.1.16 from source and move the list's config.pck files, but this could cause SeLinux issues if you're running that. I am happy to continue to work with you on this, but I'm shortly going off line for about 48 hours, so I may not be responsive during that period. -- Mark Sapiro m...@msapiro.netThe highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] unable to start Mailman
Mark, Thanks! And at that point, where was the lists/mailman/config.pck file? I assume it was in /var/lib/mailman/lists/mailman/config.pck because I did not move the config file when I moved the old list over. And to where did you move those losts/LISTNAME/config.pck files. I move the whole list folder over to /var/lib/mailman list/nameofthelist; and the config.pck file was in the director. If this were my server, I'd 'sudo yum remove mailman', install Mailman 2.1.16 from source and move the list's config.pck files, but this could cause SeLinux issues if you're running that. At this point, this is not an option because my manager does not want to compile from source. I am happy to continue to work with you on this, but I'm shortly going off line for about 48 hours, so I may not be responsive during that period. Sure! Once again, thanks for your time; I really appreciate it. Charles On Tue, Nov 5, 2013 at 7:39 PM, Mark Sapiro m...@msapiro.net wrote: On 11/05/2013 05:19 PM, c cc wrote: Let me clarify this: No, I can't open the old list's listinfo page, but I can see the list using list_lists command. OK. When I did the fresh installation and created the mailman list before moving any old lists over, I was able to start mailman using: service mailman start. And at that point, where was the lists/mailman/config.pck file? As soon I moved any old list over to the new server, that command (service mailman start) no longer worked so did the web interface. And to where did you move those losts/LISTNAME/config.pck files. And what else did you move. My best guess is this process overwrote some critical path or symlink. Is it possible that the old lists had overwritten something? Not the lists/LISTNAME/config.pck files themselves, but something else you did. Is is still the case that '/usr/lib/mailman/bin/ mailmanctl start' will successfully start mailman, but 'service mailman start' complains about the missing site list? Yes Then the service script must be running a different mailmanctl. If this were my server, I'd 'sudo yum remove mailman', install Mailman 2.1.16 from source and move the list's config.pck files, but this could cause SeLinux issues if you're running that. I am happy to continue to work with you on this, but I'm shortly going off line for about 48 hours, so I may not be responsive during that period. -- Mark Sapiro m...@msapiro.netThe highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] unable to start Mailman
Mark, I am not sure this would help; I got this error message in /var/log/mailman/error IOError reading list extension: [Errno 13] Permission denied: '/var/lib/mailman/lists/mailman/extend.py' Nov 05 20:16:53 2013 mailmanctl(31641): Site list is missing: mailman Thanks, Charles On Tue, Nov 5, 2013 at 7:56 PM, c cc sub...@gmail.com wrote: Mark, Thanks! And at that point, where was the lists/mailman/config.pck file? I assume it was in /var/lib/mailman/lists/mailman/config.pck because I did not move the config file when I moved the old list over. And to where did you move those losts/LISTNAME/config.pck files. I move the whole list folder over to /var/lib/mailman list/nameofthelist; and the config.pck file was in the director. If this were my server, I'd 'sudo yum remove mailman', install Mailman 2.1.16 from source and move the list's config.pck files, but this could cause SeLinux issues if you're running that. At this point, this is not an option because my manager does not want to compile from source. I am happy to continue to work with you on this, but I'm shortly going off line for about 48 hours, so I may not be responsive during that period. Sure! Once again, thanks for your time; I really appreciate it. Charles On Tue, Nov 5, 2013 at 7:39 PM, Mark Sapiro m...@msapiro.net wrote: On 11/05/2013 05:19 PM, c cc wrote: Let me clarify this: No, I can't open the old list's listinfo page, but I can see the list using list_lists command. OK. When I did the fresh installation and created the mailman list before moving any old lists over, I was able to start mailman using: service mailman start. And at that point, where was the lists/mailman/config.pck file? As soon I moved any old list over to the new server, that command (service mailman start) no longer worked so did the web interface. And to where did you move those losts/LISTNAME/config.pck files. And what else did you move. My best guess is this process overwrote some critical path or symlink. Is it possible that the old lists had overwritten something? Not the lists/LISTNAME/config.pck files themselves, but something else you did. Is is still the case that '/usr/lib/mailman/bin/ mailmanctl start' will successfully start mailman, but 'service mailman start' complains about the missing site list? Yes Then the service script must be running a different mailmanctl. If this were my server, I'd 'sudo yum remove mailman', install Mailman 2.1.16 from source and move the list's config.pck files, but this could cause SeLinux issues if you're running that. I am happy to continue to work with you on this, but I'm shortly going off line for about 48 hours, so I may not be responsive during that period. -- Mark Sapiro m...@msapiro.netThe highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman reusing message-id, leads to duplicate message suppression
On 11/5/13, 6:59 PM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote: Note that the subject is incorrect. Mailman is not reusing the Message-ID, it is refusing to alter it which is correct behavior according to RFC 5322 (Message-ID is an originator field). I believe that according to RFC 5322 (and predecessors) Mailman SHOULD add a Resent-Message-ID to indicate that it handled the message, but I doubt this would change the duplicate-suppression behavior of Gmail and MS Exchange. It is not clear to me that mailman should add the Resent-* headers. The RFC states: Resent fields SHOULD be added to any message that is reintroduced by a user into the transport system. and later They MUST NOT be used in the normal processing of replies or other such automatic actions on messages. Mailman isn't really a user, and is automatic so I think the second clause is more applicable. -- Richard Damon -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] unable to start Mailman
On 11/05/2013 06:18 PM, c cc wrote: I am not sure this would help; I got this error message in /var/log/mailman/error IOError reading list extension: [Errno 13] Permission denied: '/var/lib/mailman/lists/mailman/extend.py' Nov 05 20:16:53 2013 mailmanctl(31641): Site list is missing: mailman You have permissions issues on the stuff you moved. Are your attempts to access the lists via the web giving we hit a bug? In any case, as root run Mailman's 'bin/check-perms -f'. It tends to have issues with symlinks and may continue to report issues on the symlink even though the target is fixed. That will probably help. -- Mark Sapiro m...@msapiro.netThe highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] unable to start Mailman
Mark, Yes, we got we hit a bug message. Thanks! Charles On Tue, Nov 5, 2013 at 8:29 PM, Mark Sapiro m...@msapiro.net wrote: On 11/05/2013 06:18 PM, c cc wrote: I am not sure this would help; I got this error message in /var/log/mailman/error IOError reading list extension: [Errno 13] Permission denied: '/var/lib/mailman/lists/mailman/extend.py' Nov 05 20:16:53 2013 mailmanctl(31641): Site list is missing: mailman You have permissions issues on the stuff you moved. Are your attempts to access the lists via the web giving we hit a bug? In any case, as root run Mailman's 'bin/check-perms -f'. It tends to have issues with symlinks and may continue to report issues on the symlink even though the target is fixed. That will probably help. -- Mark Sapiro m...@msapiro.netThe highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] unable to start Mailman
Mark, No luck. [root@es1 bin]# ./check_perms -f directory must be at least 02775: /usr/lib/mailman (fixing) directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/mail (fixing) directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/cgi-bin (fixing) directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/scripts (fixing) directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/pythonlib (fixing) directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/icons (fixing) directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/bin (fixing) directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/messages (fixing) directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/tests (fixing) directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/templates (fixing) directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/pythonlib/lib (fixing) directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/pythonlib/japanese (fixing) directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/pythonlib/korean (fixing) directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/pythonlib/lib/python2.6 (fixing) directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/pythonlib/lib/python2.6/site-packages (fixing) directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/pythonlib/japanese/aliases (fixing) directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/pythonlib/japanese/python (fixing) directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/pythonlib/japanese/c (fixing) directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/pythonlib/japanese/mappings (fixing) directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/pythonlib/korean/python (fixing) directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/pythonlib/korean/c (fixing) directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/pythonlib/korean/mappings (fixing) directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/messages/sr (fixing) directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/messages/uk (fixing) directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/messages/ia (fixing) directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/messages/ja (fixing) directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/messages/zh_TW (fixing) directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/messages/sk (fixing) directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/messages/nl (fixing) directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/messages/et (fixing) directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/messages/vi (fixing) directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/messages/fi (fixing) directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/messages/sl (fixing) directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/messages/ro (fixing) directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/messages/zh_CN (fixing) directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/messages/gl (fixing) directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/messages/cs (fixing) directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/messages/he (fixing) directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/messages/it (fixing) directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/messages/hr (fixing) directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/messages/ko (fixing) directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/messages/pt_BR (fixing) directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/messages/da (fixing) directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/messages/sv (fixing) directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/messages/pt (fixing) directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/messages/hu (fixing) directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/messages/pl (fixing) directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/messages/no (fixing) directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/messages/lt (fixing) directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/messages/de (fixing) directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/messages/ca (fixing) directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/messages/ru (fixing) directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/messages/es (fixing) directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/messages/tr (fixing) directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/messages/fr (fixing) directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/messages/ar (fixing) directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/messages/eu (fixing) directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/messages/sr/LC_MESSAGES (fixing) directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/messages/uk/LC_MESSAGES (fixing) directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/messages/ia/LC_MESSAGES (fixing) directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/messages/ja/LC_MESSAGES (fixing) directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/messages/zh_TW/LC_MESSAGES (fixing) directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/messages/sk/LC_MESSAGES (fixing) directory permissions must be 02775:
Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman reusing message-id, leads to duplicate message suppression
Richard Damon writes: It is not clear to me that mailman should add the Resent-* headers. The RFC states: No, it's not clear to me, either. I do have a very strong opinion in favor, to the extent that I would make it an option defaulting to ON. Resent fields SHOULD be added to any message that is reintroduced by a user into the transport system. This is relevant, and I agree that it's not clear whether Mailman is a user as referred to by the RFC. Because the Resent-* headers are purely informational, I think it's harmless to add them: they're the non-MTA equivalent of the trace headers added by MTAs. Mailman is clearly not part of the transport system (it's not an MTA even though does implement parts of SMTP), and often there is human intervention (moderation and user configuration such as notmetoo) in the process of reinserting the message into the transport system. Based on those facts, I think it's reasonable to strengthen the MAY implied by harmless to SHOULD. Also, I believe that Resent-From is preferable to unstandardized mechanisms for detecting loops such as X-Been-There. and later They MUST NOT be used in the normal processing of replies or other such automatic actions on messages. This isn't relevant. The normal processing of replies or other such automatic actions on messages referred to here is by the MUA of the final recipient, *not* the agent that adds the Resent-* headers. It means that replies MUST NOT be directed to any Resent-From address automatically (note there is no Resent-Reply-To), and In-Reply-To and References MUST NOT be initialized based on any Resent-Message-ID. Steve -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] unable to start Mailman
On 11/05/2013 06:38 PM, c cc wrote: Mark, No luck. [root@es1 bin]# ./check_perms -f directory must be at least 02775: /usr/lib/mailman (fixing) ... directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/templates/eu (fixing) The permissions issues you have are with /var/lib/mailman/lists/. I don't know why check_perms is not picking those up. If you want, you can send me all of /var/lib/mailman/logs/error, but I won't be able to look at it in detail until Thurs eve. -- Mark Sapiro m...@msapiro.netThe highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
[Mailman-Users] Reducing false positives with spam markings with Gmail, etc.
Has this been a growing issue with Mailman served lists? Articles like this sort of explain to rougher territory for legit email generators: http://bit.ly/1hhDQo6 We actually use the open source GroupServer.org package (a cousin to Mailman) and if this is a growing problem, we need some sort of defense network. If it is not a growing problem with Mailman lists, then what are you doing right!? (One factor for us is that we do have a lot of users who post via the web interface, which Gmail doesn't seem to like.) Thanks, Steven Clift E-Democracy.org -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] unable to start Mailman
Mark, Thanks. I will double check all the permission on /var/lib/mailman/lists/ to make sure that they are all the same with the mailman list permission since that particular list was working fine before I moved the old lists over. I will send you the log files to your email tomorrow. Once again, thanks for your help. Charles On Tue, Nov 5, 2013 at 10:56 PM, Mark Sapiro m...@msapiro.net wrote: On 11/05/2013 06:38 PM, c cc wrote: Mark, No luck. [root@es1 bin]# ./check_perms -f directory must be at least 02775: /usr/lib/mailman (fixing) ... directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/templates/eu (fixing) The permissions issues you have are with /var/lib/mailman/lists/. I don't know why check_perms is not picking those up. If you want, you can send me all of /var/lib/mailman/logs/error, but I won't be able to look at it in detail until Thurs eve. -- Mark Sapiro m...@msapiro.netThe highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
[Mailman-Users] Reducing false positives with spam markings with Gmail, etc.
Steven Clift writes: Has this been a growing issue with Mailman served lists? I wouldn't say it's growing. For quite a while (a decade or so) we have been getting the occasional request for help in getting mail delivered to the major freemail services and portals, including Gmail, Yahoo!, Hotmail, and AOL. I haven't noticed them getting more frequent over time, nor have I had problems delivering to them with my own lists (but I have a really easy set of users to service, most are admins or oldtimers themselves and tend to blame their freemail provider, not my lists). If it is not a growing problem with Mailman lists, then what are you doing right!? Hard to say. For one thing, Mailman tries very hard to conform to the relevant RFCs (specifically 5322, 2369, and 2919). Second, most Mailman lists are set up by professionals, either people who are quite familiar with mail service including the kinds of things that keep you from getting labeled as spam, or hosting services. Not all of them are completely competent, but most do a pretty good job. Most implement DKIM and/or SPF, for example. So there may be a growing problem, and we just don't hear about it -- the host managers are dealing with it themselves. Third, we do have a pretty good FAQ on how to communicate with the big services to get on their good side. It's tedious to follow their rules, but it does work most of the time. (One factor for us is that we do have a lot of users who post via the web interface, which Gmail doesn't seem to like.) That doesn't surprise me. I assume that the from address is web.u...@home.org as they are registered with your service. If your software is not emitting a correct Sender header, it will look like the From address is spoofed. Gmail won't like that. Make sure that in this case the Sender header is set appropriately. (Mailman doesn't have a web interface, so doesn't have experience with this itself. The most common third-party interface is Gmane, which does get the headers right. Not everybody appreciates Gmane -- they have a habit of mirroring lists whose owners don't want them mirrored -- but they do conform to the mail standards.) Hope this helps. Steve -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] unable to start Mailman
withlist -l -r fix_url [listname} Okay, the lists are there now after I fixed the url. I will let you know see if it work when I get back to work tomorrow. Once again, thank you so much for your help and time. Charles On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 1:03 AM, c cc sub...@gmail.com wrote: Mark, Finally, I was able to get service mailman start to work, but in www.domain.com/mailman/listinfo only shows the list mailman, none of my old list are showing up. By the way, SElinux was the culprit, and once it was stopped, I was able to start mailman using: service mailman start. On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 12:34 AM, c cc sub...@gmail.com wrote: Mark, Thanks. I will double check all the permission on /var/lib/mailman/lists/ to make sure that they are all the same with the mailman list permission since that particular list was working fine before I moved the old lists over. I will send you the log files to your email tomorrow. Once again, thanks for your help. Charles On Tue, Nov 5, 2013 at 10:56 PM, Mark Sapiro m...@msapiro.net wrote: On 11/05/2013 06:38 PM, c cc wrote: Mark, No luck. [root@es1 bin]# ./check_perms -f directory must be at least 02775: /usr/lib/mailman (fixing) ... directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/templates/eu (fixing) The permissions issues you have are with /var/lib/mailman/lists/. I don't know why check_perms is not picking those up. If you want, you can send me all of /var/lib/mailman/logs/error, but I won't be able to look at it in detail until Thurs eve. -- Mark Sapiro m...@msapiro.netThe highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] unable to start Mailman
Mark, Finally, I was able to get service mailman start to work, but in www.domain.com/mailman/listinfo only shows the list mailman, none of my old list are showing up. By the way, SElinux was the culprit, and once it was stopped, I was able to start mailman using: service mailman start. On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 12:34 AM, c cc sub...@gmail.com wrote: Mark, Thanks. I will double check all the permission on /var/lib/mailman/lists/ to make sure that they are all the same with the mailman list permission since that particular list was working fine before I moved the old lists over. I will send you the log files to your email tomorrow. Once again, thanks for your help. Charles On Tue, Nov 5, 2013 at 10:56 PM, Mark Sapiro m...@msapiro.net wrote: On 11/05/2013 06:38 PM, c cc wrote: Mark, No luck. [root@es1 bin]# ./check_perms -f directory must be at least 02775: /usr/lib/mailman (fixing) ... directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/templates/eu (fixing) The permissions issues you have are with /var/lib/mailman/lists/. I don't know why check_perms is not picking those up. If you want, you can send me all of /var/lib/mailman/logs/error, but I won't be able to look at it in detail until Thurs eve. -- Mark Sapiro m...@msapiro.netThe highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
