Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman 3 confusion

[Mark Sapiro]

On 06/19/2017 07:30 PM, Jon Ribbens wrote:
> 
> This is all true, but personally I can't see any likelihood of
> any noticeable uptake of Mailman 3 until it will all run on one
> version of Python.


Personally, I can't understand why you would say that. Can you elaborate
on that? I have no hard data, but I expect that most machines that have
any Python applications at all probably have both Python 2 and Python 3
installed and likely have both Python 2 and Python 3 applications.

Keep in mind that both Postorius and HyperKitty, while quite useful, are
really separate applications from the Mailman core and are not required
to use the core to manage email lists.


> Having said that, if there's any specific help needed to achieve that
> then I'm potentially willing to put some work in.


I'm sure we would welcome your help, but the place to discuss that is
mailman-us...@mailman3.org

or mailman-develop...@python.org
.

-- 
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San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Trouble with "Reply-to:"

[Mark Sapiro]

On 06/18/2017 11:57 PM, Frank Elsner wrote:
> 
> Oh wonder, I found exactly this code snippet :-(


First, are you sure that reply_goes_to_list is set to the integer 2 and
not the string '2'. If it is a string, that would explain it.

And are you setting/inspecting it from the web UI, with bin/config_list,
with bin/withlist or some other way?

Have you tried different settings, perhaps on a test list, th see if any
reply to munging works?

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman 3 confusion

[Jon Ribbens]

On Mon, Jun 19, 2017 at 06:53:37PM -0700, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> It means Postorius (postorius), HyperKitty (mailman-hyperkitty) and
> therefore the supporting project modules they import, mailmanclient and
> django-mailman3 all require Python 2.7. Not 'at least' Python 2.7, but
> some 2.7.x.
> 
> Python 2.7 and Python 3 are significantly different. Programs can be
> bilingual, but not all of Postorius, HyperKitty and their dependencies
> are fully Python 3 compatible yet.
> 
> This means you need Python 3.4 or later for Mailman core and Python
> 2.7.x for Postorius and HyperKitty. These are quite capable of
> coexisting on the same box and that is probably what you want, but it is
> possible to run Postorius and HyperKitty on a separate box, but there
> are potential security issues involved in exposing the core's REST
> interface beyond 'localhost'.

This is all true, but personally I can't see any likelihood of
any noticeable uptake of Mailman 3 until it will all run on one
version of Python.

Having said that, if there's any specific help needed to achieve that
then I'm potentially willing to put some work in.
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman 3 confusion

[Mark Sapiro]

On 06/19/2017 08:01 AM, Rosenbaum, Larry M. wrote:
>> From: Mailman-Users [mailto:mailman-users-
>> bounces+rosenbaumlm=ornl@python.org] On Behalf Of Mark Sapiro
>>
>> At the moment it actually says "The backend requires Python 3.4 or newer
>> while the frontend requires Python 2.7"
>>
>> What that means is the Mailman core (mailman) and and the Mailman -
>> HyperKitty plugin (mailman-hyperkitty) require Python 3 (3.4, 3.5 and
>> 3.6 are supported).
>>
>> Postorius (postorius), HyperKitty (mailman-hyperkitty) and therefore the
>> supporting project modules they import, mailmanclient and
>> django-mailman3 all require Python 2.7.
> 
> Does that mean _at_least_ 2.7, or does it mean I need two different versions 
> of Python on the same box, or does it mean I need two boxes?


It means Postorius (postorius), HyperKitty (mailman-hyperkitty) and
therefore the supporting project modules they import, mailmanclient and
django-mailman3 all require Python 2.7. Not 'at least' Python 2.7, but
some 2.7.x.

Python 2.7 and Python 3 are significantly different. Programs can be
bilingual, but not all of Postorius, HyperKitty and their dependencies
are fully Python 3 compatible yet.

This means you need Python 3.4 or later for Mailman core and Python
2.7.x for Postorius and HyperKitty. These are quite capable of
coexisting on the same box and that is probably what you want, but it is
possible to run Postorius and HyperKitty on a separate box, but there
are potential security issues involved in exposing the core's REST
interface beyond 'localhost'.

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San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman 3 confusion

[Rosenbaum, Larry M.]

> From: Mailman-Users [mailto:mailman-users-
> bounces+rosenbaumlm=ornl@python.org] On Behalf Of Mark Sapiro
> 
> At the moment it actually says "The backend requires Python 3.4 or newer
> while the frontend requires Python 2.7"
> 
> What that means is the Mailman core (mailman) and and the Mailman -
> HyperKitty plugin (mailman-hyperkitty) require Python 3 (3.4, 3.5 and
> 3.6 are supported).
> 
> Postorius (postorius), HyperKitty (mailman-hyperkitty) and therefore the
> supporting project modules they import, mailmanclient and
> django-mailman3 all require Python 2.7.

Does that mean _at_least_ 2.7, or does it mean I need two different versions of 
Python on the same box, or does it mean I need two boxes?
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman 3 confusion

[Mark Lindsay]

Hi Tlhackque,

I went through a similar battle with installing Mailman 3 but emerged
victorious in the end. Here are some tips that might help you out.

- There are several places where you can find Mailman 3 docs. It is
confusing. The most complete documentation I found is here:
https://mailman.readthedocs.io/en/latest/src/mailman/docs/install.html

- Don't use mailman bundler

- Start with installing just Mailman 3 Core. Core is the part of Mailman 3
that talks to your mail server and controls lists and members of lists.
Leave Postorius and Hyperkitty out of it until you have Core running and
you understand what it is doing. You can work directly with Mailman 3 using
`mailman shell` or the Mailman 3 Core REST API
https://mailman.readthedocs.io/en/latest/src/mailman/rest/docs/rest.html

- Mailman 3 Core indeed requires python 3

- Use Python's `virtualenv -p python3` to install Mailman 3 Core. It looks
like a lot of the problems you're having are because of dependency/version
hell. virtualenv will help with this. Successfully dockerizing Mailman 3
Core will help even more! I read over on the Mailman 3 Users list that an
install process using Docker will soon be the canonical way to install
Mailman 3, which is great.

- Use a SQL backend with Mailman 3 Core that allows you to inspect its DB
tables directly. This is so you can see what it is doing behind the scenes
when you interact with it via `mailman shell` or the REST API. The DB
schema is sane and easy to navigate.
https://mailman.readthedocs.io/en/latest/src/mailman/docs/database.html

- I really like that I was able to install Mailman 3 Core right in a
non-privileged user's home directory.  My server is just a stock Ubuntu AWS
EC2 instance. My Mailman 3 Core install is in `/home/ubuntu/mailman` with a
configuration file of `/home/ubuntu/mailman/var/etc/mailman.cfg`. I am
running Mailman 3 Core in production from the regular `ubuntu` user's home
directory in a virtualenv. I do not know if this is the recommended way to
do it, but the documentation is especially sparse in this area, and it
seems to work!

As best I can remember (it's been a couple months), here are the steps I
followed to get it up and running:

1. `cd ~`
2. `git clone https://gitlab.com/mailman/mailman.git`
3. `cd mailman`
4. `virtualenv -p python3 venv`
5. `source venv/bin/activate`
6. `python setup.py develop`
7. I am pretty sure this setup command will place a configuration file into
`~/mailman/var/etc/mailman.cfg`. Edit this file.
https://mailman.readthedocs.io/en/latest/src/mailman/config/docs/config.html
8. `mailman info` can confirm which configuration file is in use
9. `mailman start` will start up Mailman 3 Core. This is what the parent
background process command looks like in `ps -ef`:
`/home/ubuntu/mailman/venv/bin/python /home/ubuntu/mailman/venv/bin/master
-C /home/ubuntu/mailman/var/etc/mailman.cfg`
10. Logs are in ~/mailman/var/logs

It is not a straightforward install process and requires a little detective
work based on your environment and mail server. I had the disadvantage of
never being a Mailman 2 user, so a big chunk of my learning curve was
understanding Mailman terminology and its way of doing things.

I still do not have Postorius or Hyperkitty installed. My use case is a
PHP-based CMS which administers Mailman 3 Core via its REST API. I wrote a
quick and dirty PHP client and it works surprisingly well. Mailman 3 Core
has been solid in production and easy to deal with via the REST API.

Good luck, and you might want to check out the Mailman 3-specific users
list here:
https://lists.mailman3.org/archives/list/mailman-us...@mailman3.org/

On Sat, Jun 17, 2017 at 5:14 PM, tlhackque via Mailman-Users <
mailman-users@python.org> wrote:

> I took another look at installing Mailman 3, and ended up lost and
> confused.  I'm an experienced software person - but my Python knowledge
> is minimal.
>
> Fedora 25, python 3.5.3, pretty much out of the box.
>
> Mailman version: 3.1.0 (The other bits and pieces are current - 1.1)
>
> I tried to follow the documentation on
> http://docs.list.org/en/latest/prodsetup.html,
>
> http://mailman-3-installation.readthedocs.io/en/latest/
> production_install.html
> claims that the backend requires Python 3.4, but the frontend 2.7.  Not
> clear if this is credible, but it's out there...
>
> https://wiki.list.org/Mailman3 points to Mark Sapiro's experience on
> https://wiki.list.org/DOC/Mailman%203%20installation%20experience  This
> starts off with "For both installs I started with mailman-bundler."
> But https://gitlab.com/mailman/mailman-bundler says "All of this
> documentation is obsolete!  Mailman Bundler is no longer recommended or
> supported. "  So...
>
> I have yet to find a step-by-step 'bare OS to running MM3" document.
> I've run MM2.1 lists for years, it wasn't this hard to get started.
> Just install and edit one config file (plus the webserver.).  I don't
> want to learn a zillion other technologies just to get started 

Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman 3 confusion

[tlhackque via Mailman-Users]

On 18-Jun-17 13:03, Mark Lindsay wrote:

Thanks for taking the time to write & share your experience!  I'll see
if I can reproduce your success.

readthedocs is somewhat off-putting since it asserts different Python
version dependencies from the main site.

I did understand that the core requires Python 3.  What isn't clear is
whether the Front end requires Python 2... I do have 2.7.3 installed.

I didn't know about the mailman3-users list; next round will go there.

I've perused the docs, and  decided that I will have to get an instance
running & do some experimentation to make sense of them.  (e.g. the
schemas for the REST API's  json are sketchy - I haven't found how
topics/topic filters are represented - and they're a key item for me. 
And the "dumps" are less helpful to a non-python person
than raw json.)  There's noBut it looks like it should be possible to
replace what I did with the 2.1 cli utilities with not much code - and a
lot of research. 

I can live without the archive for a while, but the main reason for
converting my new project to MM3 is the new UI.

It's not obvious that I can use a virtual environment when a webserver
has to interact - and especially where the host runs SeLinux (extended
access controls.)

I use SQLite elsewhere; I planned to stick with it for this.  It's the
Python default, and the command interface for queries is reasonable. 
(And it has a -- sorry -- Perl API, which is the implementation language
for the main application.)

I do disagree with you on one point - it doesn't take 'a little
detective work' to figure this out.  It takes a LOT of detective work
:-)  I've invested several daze, and still don't have a process running.

But I'll (probably) get there.  Eventually.  Thanks for the tips.


> Hi Tlhackque,
>
> I went through a similar battle with installing Mailman 3 but emerged
> victorious in the end. Here are some tips that might help you out.
>
> - There are several places where you can find Mailman 3 docs. It is
> confusing. The most complete documentation I found is
> here: https://mailman.readthedocs.io/en/latest/src/mailman/docs/install.html
>
> - Don't use mailman bundler
>
> - Start with installing just Mailman 3 Core. Core is the part of
> Mailman 3 that talks to your mail server and controls lists and
> members of lists. Leave Postorius and Hyperkitty out of it until you
> have Core running and you understand what it is doing. You can work
> directly with Mailman 3 using `mailman shell` or the Mailman 3 Core
> REST
> API https://mailman.readthedocs.io/en/latest/src/mailman/rest/docs/rest.html
>
> - Mailman 3 Core indeed requires python 3
>
> - Use Python's `virtualenv -p python3` to install Mailman 3 Core. It
> looks like a lot of the problems you're having are because of
> dependency/version hell. virtualenv will help with this. Successfully
> dockerizing Mailman 3 Core will help even more! I read over on the
> Mailman 3 Users list that an install process using Docker will soon be
> the canonical way to install Mailman 3, which is great.
>
> - Use a SQL backend with Mailman 3 Core that allows you to inspect its
> DB tables directly. This is so you can see what it is doing behind the
> scenes when you interact with it via `mailman shell` or the REST API.
> The DB schema is sane and easy to
> navigate. 
> https://mailman.readthedocs.io/en/latest/src/mailman/docs/database.html
>
> - I really like that I was able to install Mailman 3 Core right in a
> non-privileged user's home directory.  My server is just a stock
> Ubuntu AWS EC2 instance. My Mailman 3 Core install is in
> `/home/ubuntu/mailman` with a configuration file of
> `/home/ubuntu/mailman/var/etc/mailman.cfg`. I am running Mailman 3
> Core in production from the regular `ubuntu` user's home directory in
> a virtualenv. I do not know if this is the recommended way to do it,
> but the documentation is especially sparse in this area, and it seems
> to work!
>
> As best I can remember (it's been a couple months), here are the steps
> I followed to get it up and running:
>
> 1. `cd ~`
> 2. `git clone https://gitlab.com/mailman/mailman.git`
> 
> 3. `cd mailman`
> 4. `virtualenv -p python3 venv`
> 5. `source venv/bin/activate`
> 6. `python setup.py develop`
> 7. I am pretty sure this setup command will place a configuration file
> into `~/mailman/var/etc/mailman.cfg`. Edit this
> file. 
> https://mailman.readthedocs.io/en/latest/src/mailman/config/docs/config.html
> 8. `mailman info` can confirm which configuration file is in use
> 9. `mailman start` will start up Mailman 3 Core. This is what the
> parent background process command looks like in `ps -ef`:
> `/home/ubuntu/mailman/venv/bin/python
> /home/ubuntu/mailman/venv/bin/master -C
> /home/ubuntu/mailman/var/etc/mailman.cfg`
> 10. Logs are in ~/mailman/var/logs
>
> It is not a straightforward install process and requires a little
> detective work based on your environment and mail server. I had the
> 

Re: [Mailman-Users] Trouble with "Reply-to:"

[Frank Elsner]

On Fri, 16 Jun 2017 08:47:41 +0200 Frank Elsner wrote:
> On Thu, 15 Jun 2017 20:56:10 -0400 (EDT) Robert Heller wrote:
> 
>   [ ... ]
> 
> The outgoing MTA has no special handling for "Reply-To:" and I've looked at 
> the
> spool file, it has no "Reply-To:" :-(
> 
> > > You could look at your Mailman/Handlers/CookHeaders.py in the section
> > > that begins with the comment
> > > 
> > > # Reply-To: munging. ...
> > > 
> > > to see it it looks correct. In particular, this
> > > 
> > > # List admin wants an explicit Reply-To: added
> > > if mlist.reply_goes_to_list == 2:
> > > add(parseaddr(mlist.reply_to_address))
> > > 
> > > is what puts reply_to_address in the Reply-To: header in the outgoing
> > > message.
> 
> I'll do this, definitly.

Oh wonder, I found exactly this code snippet :-(


Kind regards, Frank Elsner
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