[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

2020-09-16 Thread Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users 
On Thu, 2020-09-17 at 02:34 +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> 
> You're right.  If we're going to reopen the Mailman 2 branch to new
> features, there should be a much larger body.  So where is it?  Mark
> and I are not special.  We're merely here every day, we have acquired
> a lot of knowledge about common issues, and we dig into the code or
> the user's configuration when that's needed to solve a problem.  

You're not alone in that, there are plenty of people who help out. Are
you one of the more prevalent this month? Sure!  Last month, not so much
(according to my email archive), etc.  People do what they can, when
they can.

> You don't need to have a title, an @mailman email address, or a commit bit
> to do any of that.
> 
> You just do it.

Exactly!  But that is not really what this convo is all about.  You keep
taking it into the "end user support" arena, I'm focused on product
preservation.  There are multiple roles, as you well know, why do you
feel I need to fit in the role you define for me?

> It's *easy* to learn to support users, at least the relatively
> sophisticated, often service-oriented admins we see on most days.  So
> where are the folks who "just do it" and show day-to-day attachment to
> supporting other users?
>
> Bottom line: When do we get to retire?  What happens to our *users*
> when we do?  Eventually (ie, within 3 years or so) that *is* going to
> happen.  What are you going to do for our users?

Who's users?  ;-)  I think, based on this thread, you are going to have 
a really tough time ever retiring from Mailman.  I think, and I mean
this with love and appreciation, you are extremely protective of
something you've shepherded.  Like a parent who is offended by a teacher
or professor criticizing their child.

> "Manage just the new features" sounds like a terrible deal for the
> vast majority of admins and subscribers, and a very bad look for GNU
> Mailman.

Let GNU Mailman, the FSF, and the Mailman community decide that and
don't prevent them from deciding that.

-Jim P.


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[Mailman-Users] Re: Manual Update on Centos 7 (RH)

2020-09-16 Thread Mark Sapiro 
I have created a work in progress FAQ at
. This contains an updated patch that
applies cleanly to the head of the lp:mailman branch and also patches
configure so the `autoconf` step is not required. It also contains a
brief summary of steps to upgrade.

If you try it, I'd appreciate feedback.

-- 
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San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan



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[Mailman-Users] Re: Manual Update on Centos 7 (RH)

2020-09-16 Thread Mark Sapiro 
On 9/16/20 12:11 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 9/16/20 11:10 AM, Dennis Putnam wrote:
>> Hi Mark,
>>
>> On to the next layer of the onion. After the install I get this:
>>
>> #./check_perms -f
>> WARNING: directory does not exist: @PID_DIR@
>> WARNING: directory does not exist: @CONFIG_DIR@
>> WARNING: directory does not exist: @LOCK_DIR@
>> WARNING: directory does not exist: @QUEUE_DIR@
>> WARNING: directory does not exist: @LOG_DIR@
>> Warning: Private archive directory is other-executable (o+x).
>>  This could allow other users on your system to read private
>> archives.
>>  If you're on a shared multiuser system, you should consult the
>>  installation manual on how to fix this.
>> No problems found
> 
> 
> configure should have replaced the things @PID_DIR@, @CONFIG_DIR@,
> @LOCK_DIR@, @QUEUE_DIR@ and @LOG_DIR@ with actual paths.
> 
> I think you need to provide options like
> --with-pid-dir=/var/run/mailman/ -- with-config-dir=/etc/mailman
> --with-lock-dir=/var/lock/mailman --with-queue-dir=/var/spool/mailman
> --with-log-dir=/var/log/mailman in addition to --prefix=/usr/lib/mailman
> and --with-var-prefix=/var/lib/mailman
> 
> 
>> I am guessing I can't just overwrite the 2.1.15 version with this
>> version using 'make install'. The upgrade is more complicated, right? I
>> have to uninstall the old version, install the new version then migrate
>> the data into the new version.
> 
> 
> If you get it properly configured, you can just install it using make
> install and it should work.
> 
> OTOH, you could just configure, make and install stock 2.1.34 and then
> migrate the data, but you will then have permission issues if SELinux is
> enabled.
> 
> If you do proceed with the former approach, let us know the steps. I.e.,
> apply the mailman-FHS.patch and fix issues with that; run configure with
> options ..., and anything else. With that info, I will create a FAQ for
> RHEL/CentOS analogous to the Debian/Ubuntu one at
> . Actually, I'm starting to work ion
> that now.
> 
> 
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> 


-- 
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San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan



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[Mailman-Users] Re: Manual Update on Centos 7 (RH)

2020-09-16 Thread Dmitri Maziuk 

On 9/16/2020 2:34 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:

On 9/16/20 12:11 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:


configure should have replaced the things @PID_DIR@, @CONFIG_DIR@,
@LOCK_DIR@, @QUEUE_DIR@ and @LOG_DIR@ with actual paths.

I think you need to provide options like
--with-pid-dir=/var/run/mailman/ -- with-config-dir=/etc/mailman
--with-lock-dir=/var/lock/mailman --with-queue-dir=/var/spool/mailman
--with-log-dir=/var/log/mailman in addition to --prefix=/usr/lib/mailman
and --with-var-prefix=/var/lib/mailman



You also need to run `autoconf` after patching and before running
configure because the patch only patches configure.in.


The source RPM has mailman.spec file that has the exact build commands 
buried in it somewhere. It'll have the exact paths for ./configure etc.


Dima
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[Mailman-Users] Re: Manual Update on Centos 7 (RH)

2020-09-16 Thread Mark Sapiro 
On 9/16/20 12:11 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> 
> configure should have replaced the things @PID_DIR@, @CONFIG_DIR@,
> @LOCK_DIR@, @QUEUE_DIR@ and @LOG_DIR@ with actual paths.
> 
> I think you need to provide options like
> --with-pid-dir=/var/run/mailman/ -- with-config-dir=/etc/mailman
> --with-lock-dir=/var/lock/mailman --with-queue-dir=/var/spool/mailman
> --with-log-dir=/var/log/mailman in addition to --prefix=/usr/lib/mailman
> and --with-var-prefix=/var/lib/mailman


You also need to run `autoconf` after patching and before running
configure because the patch only patches configure.in.

-- 
Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan



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[Mailman-Users] Re: Manual Update on Centos 7 (RH)

2020-09-16 Thread Mark Sapiro 
On 9/16/20 11:10 AM, Dennis Putnam wrote:
> Hi Mark,
> 
> On to the next layer of the onion. After the install I get this:
> 
> #./check_perms -f
> WARNING: directory does not exist: @PID_DIR@
> WARNING: directory does not exist: @CONFIG_DIR@
> WARNING: directory does not exist: @LOCK_DIR@
> WARNING: directory does not exist: @QUEUE_DIR@
> WARNING: directory does not exist: @LOG_DIR@
> Warning: Private archive directory is other-executable (o+x).
>  This could allow other users on your system to read private
> archives.
>  If you're on a shared multiuser system, you should consult the
>  installation manual on how to fix this.
> No problems found


configure should have replaced the things @PID_DIR@, @CONFIG_DIR@,
@LOCK_DIR@, @QUEUE_DIR@ and @LOG_DIR@ with actual paths.

I think you need to provide options like
--with-pid-dir=/var/run/mailman/ -- with-config-dir=/etc/mailman
--with-lock-dir=/var/lock/mailman --with-queue-dir=/var/spool/mailman
--with-log-dir=/var/log/mailman in addition to --prefix=/usr/lib/mailman
and --with-var-prefix=/var/lib/mailman


> I am guessing I can't just overwrite the 2.1.15 version with this
> version using 'make install'. The upgrade is more complicated, right? I
> have to uninstall the old version, install the new version then migrate
> the data into the new version.


If you get it properly configured, you can just install it using make
install and it should work.

OTOH, you could just configure, make and install stock 2.1.34 and then
migrate the data, but you will then have permission issues if SELinux is
enabled.

If you do proceed with the former approach, let us know the steps. I.e.,
apply the mailman-FHS.patch and fix issues with that; run configure with
options ..., and anything else. With that info, I will create a FAQ for
RHEL/CentOS analogous to the Debian/Ubuntu one at
. Actually, I'm starting to work ion
that now.

-- 
Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan



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[Mailman-Users] Re: Manual Update on Centos 7 (RH)

2020-09-16 Thread Dennis Putnam 
Hi Mark,

On to the next layer of the onion. After the install I get this:

#./check_perms -f
WARNING: directory does not exist: @PID_DIR@
WARNING: directory does not exist: @CONFIG_DIR@
WARNING: directory does not exist: @LOCK_DIR@
WARNING: directory does not exist: @QUEUE_DIR@
WARNING: directory does not exist: @LOG_DIR@
Warning: Private archive directory is other-executable (o+x).
 This could allow other users on your system to read private
archives.
 If you're on a shared multiuser system, you should consult the
 installation manual on how to fix this.
No problems found

Although it says no problems found I am concerned about the warnings
(except the last). I seem to be back, more or less, to where I started.
Interestingly the 'execstartpre' uses the hard coded path and the
startup script uses the symbolic path which is one of the warnings.

● mailman.service - GNU Mailing List Manager
   Loaded: loaded (/usr/lib/systemd/system/mailman.service; disabled;
vendor preset: disabled)
   Active: failed (Result: exit-code) since Wed 2020-09-16 11:55:31 MDT;
3min 49s ago
  Process: 3303 ExecStart=/usr/lib/mailman/bin/mailmanctl -s start
(code=exited, status=1/FAILURE)
  Process: 3300 ExecStartPre=/bin/chmod 660 */var/log/mailman/error*
(code=exited, status=0/SUCCESS)
  Process: 3297 ExecStartPre=/bin/chown mailman:mailman
/var/log/mailman/error (code=exited, status=0/SUCCESS)
  Process: 3294 ExecStartPre=/bin/touch /var/log/mailman/error
(code=exited, status=0/SUCCESS)
  Process: 3289 ExecStartPre=/usr/bin/install -m644 -o root -g root
/usr/lib/mailman/cron/crontab.in /etc/cron.d/mailman (code=exited,
status=0/SUCCESS)
  Process: 3286 ExecStartPre=/usr/lib/mailman/bin/mailman-update-cfg
(code=exited, status=0/SUCCESS)

Sep 16 11:55:31 harmonia.csd.net mailmanctl[3303]: File
"/usr/lib64/python2.7/codecs.py", line 881, in open
Sep 16 11:55:31 harmonia.csd.net mailmanctl[3303]: file =
__builtin__.open(filename, mode, buffering)
Sep 16 11:55:31 harmonia.csd.net mailmanctl[3303]: IOError: [Errno 13]
Permission denied: '*@LOG_DIR@/error*'
Sep 16 11:55:31 harmonia.csd.net mailmanctl[3303]: Original log message:
Sep 16 11:55:31 harmonia.csd.net mailmanctl[3303]: [Errno 13] Permission
denied: '@LOG_DIR@/error'
Sep 16 11:55:31 harmonia.csd.net mailmanctl[3303]: Sep 16 11:55:31 2020
(3303) Site list is missing: mailman
Sep 16 11:55:31 harmonia.csd.net systemd[1]: mailman.service: control
process exited, code=exited status=1
Sep 16 11:55:31 harmonia.csd.net systemd[1]: Failed to start GNU Mailing
List Manager.
Sep 16 11:55:31 harmonia.csd.net systemd[1]: Unit mailman.service
entered failed state.
Sep 16 11:55:31 harmonia.csd.net systemd[1]: mailman.service failed.

I am guessing I can't just overwrite the 2.1.15 version with this
version using 'make install'. The upgrade is more complicated, right? I
have to uninstall the old version, install the new version then migrate
the data into the new version.




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[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

2020-09-16 Thread Stephen J. Turnbull 
Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users writes:

 > Wait, so you do want to continue to support mm2 users, but you don't
 > want to support them in any fashion if someone else other than you and
 > Mark manages just the new features?

That's right.

Currently Mark and I have a tolerable balance between the burden of
work that is intrinsically not very rewarding, the value that we get
from serving our users, and the knowledge that the burden is steadily
decreasing.  That decrease depends on the feature freeze.

You propose to remove the freeze, and indeed suggest that Mailman 2
even has a long-term growth story via rewriting in Python 3.  I am not
signed up for a slower decline in the user base, let alone growth, and
I think it's safe to say neither is Mark.

Here's the problem.

 > I think the genuine problem here is that it's a 2 man show when it
 > should be a much larger body.

You're right.  If we're going to reopen the Mailman 2 branch to new
features, there should be a much larger body.  So where is it?  Mark
and I are not special.  We're merely here every day, we have acquired
a lot of knowledge about common issues, and we dig into the code or
the user's configuration when that's needed to solve a problem.  You
don't need to have a title, an @mailman email address, or a commit bit
to do any of that.

You just do it.

It's *easy* to learn to support users, at least the relatively
sophisticated, often service-oriented admins we see on most days.  So
where are the folks who "just do it" and show day-to-day attachment to
supporting other users?

Bottom line: When do we get to retire?  What happens to our *users*
when we do?  Eventually (ie, within 3 years or so) that *is* going to
happen.  What are you going to do for our users?

"Manage just the new features" sounds like a terrible deal for the
vast majority of admins and subscribers, and a very bad look for GNU
Mailman.


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[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

2020-09-16 Thread Jonathan M 

> On 16 Sep 2020, at 07:07, Barry Warsaw  wrote:
> 
> I think that will be pretty challenging actually.  At least, it was when I 
> did it years ago.  And unless you’re *really* careful to avoid the temptation 
> to “fix" things along the way, you’ll probably end up with something not too 
> far away from Mailman 3. ;)   But hey, it’ll definitely be fun.


What would be fun is a “Mailman 2 lookalike” Python 3 user interface for 
Mailman 3, complete with Times New Roman and Courier.

An easier-to-install interface could open up Mailman 3 to the old audience. 

Best wishes

Jonathan  

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