Re: [mailop] What am I supposed to do with abuse complaints on legit mail?

[Hans-Martin Mosner via mailop]

Am 13.01.22 um 07:30 schrieb Jay Hennigan via mailop:

In my opinion, a single reply email, "You have been unsubscribed from xyz mailing 
list" is a good thing to do.

As an extra courtesy you could add something like "We're sorry that our mail was considered spam, it's not our intent to 
send unsolicited mail."


Of course, you only do that when you really didn't send unsolicited mail. If you did, scrap the reply completely and 
quit that spammer business :-)


Cheers,
Hans-Martin

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Re: [mailop] What am I supposed to do with abuse complaints on legit mail?

[Jay Hennigan via mailop]

On 1/11/22 03:40, Laura Atkins via mailop wrote:

There are few things users hate more than getting a “did you really mean 
to unsubscribe” email from companies they unsubscribed from. I’m pretty 
sure I can point to multiple rants and examples and companies being 
treated horribly on this mailing list when senders do that. I can see 
“did you really mean to report our mail as spam” generating similar 
negative feelings.


Agreed 100%.

A single acknowledgement of a successful unsubscribe is fine, but don't 
make them jump through another flaming hoop. This goes double if the 
"subscription" is the typical webinar/whitepaper spam that they never 
wanted in the first place.


In my opinion, a single reply email, "You have been unsubscribed from 
xyz mailing list" is a good thing to do.


--
Jay Hennigan - j...@west.net
Network Engineering - CCIE #7880
503 897-8550 - WB6RDV
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Re: [mailop] [EXTERNAL] Microsoft IP Filtering - sort of full details

[John Gateley via mailop]

The bounce message is immediate.
The response to the forward is immediate.
I have gotten the next step after the forward twice, once it took 4 
hours, once it took 6.

Both of these are in the past 3 or 4 days.
It's now been 12 without that.

I don't think you can blame this on a linode IP delaying responses, 
since the response when I forward is immediate.

This is something on the Microsoft side.

As said below, I will try again tomorrow with a different from and to 
address.


John

On 1/12/22 8:47 PM, Michael Wise via mailop wrote:


LiNode IP.

Responses are … delayed.

Aloha,

Michael.

--

*Michael J Wise*
MicrosoftCorporation| Spam Analysis

"Your Spam Specimen Has Been Processed."

Open a ticket for Hotmail 
 ?


*From:* mailop  *On Behalf Of *John Gateley 
via mailop

*Sent:* Wednesday, January 12, 2022 5:39 PM
*To:* mailop@mailop.org
*Subject:* [EXTERNAL] [mailop] Microsoft IP Filtering - sort of full 
details


Hello,

As promised yesterday, I am posting the full details of Microsoft 
blocking my mail server.
This time, however, my forwarded message was just ignored - no bounce, 
but no

followup email with a "click to remove". The details are below:

I sent an email from my mailserver (mx.oustrencats.com) from email 
address @JohnGateley.com to @luriellp.com


I instantly received a bounce message. The gist is here, but I will 
attached the full (redacted) bounce message (bounce.txt)



  : host
     luriellp-com.mail.protection.outlook.com[104.47.57.138] said: 550 5.7.511
     Access denied, banned sender[50.116.29.164]. To request removal from this
     list please forward this message todel...@messaging.microsoft.com. For
     more information please go to
 http://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=526653  
.
 AS(1410)
     [DM6NAM11FT045.eop-nam11.prod.protection.outlook.com] (in reply to RCPT TO
     command)

As requested, I forwarded the message on.
*Minor issue: forwarding created a message with two attachments, I had 
to delete these attachments before sending in order to get the proper 
response from Microsoft.


*I received the standard reply a little while later, with a ticket ID 
(available on request, I probably shouldn't post that publically).


At this point, after 2-4 hours I usually get a "click to delist" 
email. I did not today, nothing at all. And it has been close to 12 
hours now.


I will try again tomorrow with a different from and to address to see 
if I can get more info. *But just dropping my delist request in the 
bitbucket shouldn't happen.


*Thanks

John


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Re: [mailop] [EXTERNAL] Microsoft IP Filtering - sort of full details

[Michael Wise via mailop]

LiNode IP.
Responses are ... delayed.

Aloha,
Michael.
--
Michael J Wise
Microsoft Corporation| Spam Analysis
"Your Spam Specimen Has Been Processed."
Open a ticket for Hotmail ?

From: mailop  On Behalf Of John Gateley via mailop
Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2022 5:39 PM
To: mailop@mailop.org
Subject: [EXTERNAL] [mailop] Microsoft IP Filtering - sort of full details

Hello,

As promised yesterday, I am posting the full details of Microsoft blocking my 
mail server.
This time, however, my forwarded message was just ignored - no bounce, but no
followup email with a "click to remove". The details are below:

I sent an email from my mailserver (mx.oustrencats.com) from email address 
@JohnGateley.com to @luriellp.com

I instantly received a bounce message. The gist is here, but I will attached 
the full (redacted) bounce message (bounce.txt)



: host

luriellp-com.mail.protection.outlook.com[104.47.57.138] said: 550 5.7.511

Access denied, banned sender[50.116.29.164]. To request removal from this

list please forward this message to 
del...@messaging.microsoft.com. For

more information please go to


http://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=526653.
 AS(1410)

[DM6NAM11FT045.eop-nam11.prod.protection.outlook.com] (in reply to RCPT TO

command)


As requested, I forwarded the message on.
Minor issue: forwarding created a message with two attachments, I had to delete 
these attachments before sending in order to get the proper response from 
Microsoft.

I received the standard reply a little while later, with a ticket ID (available 
on request, I probably shouldn't post that publically).

At this point, after 2-4 hours I usually get a "click to delist" email. I did 
not today, nothing at all. And it has been close to 12 hours now.

I will try again tomorrow with a different from and to address to see if I can 
get more info. But just dropping my delist request in the bitbucket shouldn't 
happen.

Thanks

John
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[mailop] Microsoft IP Filtering - sort of full details

[John Gateley via mailop]

Hello,

As promised yesterday, I am posting the full details of Microsoft 
blocking my mail server.
This time, however, my forwarded message was just ignored - no bounce, 
but no

followup email with a "click to remove". The details are below:

I sent an email from my mailserver (mx.oustrencats.com) from email 
address @JohnGateley.com to @luriellp.com


I instantly received a bounce message. The gist is here, but I will 
attached the full (redacted) bounce message (bounce.txt)


: host
luriellp-com.mail.protection.outlook.com[104.47.57.138] said: 550 5.7.511
Access denied, banned sender[50.116.29.164]. To request removal from this
list please forward this message todel...@messaging.microsoft.com. For
more information please go to
http://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=526653. AS(1410)
[DM6NAM11FT045.eop-nam11.prod.protection.outlook.com] (in reply to RCPT TO
command)

As requested, I forwarded the message on.
*Minor issue: forwarding created a message with two attachments, I had 
to delete these attachments before sending in order to get the proper 
response from Microsoft.


*I received the standard reply a little while later, with a ticket ID 
(available on request, I probably shouldn't post that publically).


At this point, after 2-4 hours I usually get a "click to delist" email. 
I did not today, nothing at all. And it has been close to 12 hours now.


I will try again tomorrow with a different from and to address to see if 
I can get more info. *But just dropping my delist request in the 
bitbucket shouldn't happen.


*Thanks

John
**
**Return-Path: <>
X-Original-To: j...@johngateley.com
Delivered-To: j...@johngateley.com
Received: by mx.oustrencats.com (Postfix)
id 9E91D307DB; Wed, 12 Jan 2022 13:58:15 + (UTC)
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2022 13:58:15 + (UTC)
From: mailer-dae...@mx.oustrencats.com (Mail Delivery System)
Subject: Undelivered Mail Returned to Sender
To: j...@johngateley.com
Auto-Submitted: auto-replied
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/report; report-type=delivery-status;
boundary="B85F62C6A1.1641995895/mx.oustrencats.com"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Message-Id: <20220112135815.9e91d30...@mx.oustrencats.com>

This is a MIME-encapsulated message.

--B85F62C6A1.1641995895/mx.oustrencats.com
Content-Description: Notification
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

This is the mail system at host mx.oustrencats.com.

I'm sorry to have to inform you that your message could not
be delivered to one or more recipients. It's attached below.

For further assistance, please send mail to postmaster.

If you do so, please include this problem report. You can
delete your own text from the attached returned message.

   The mail system

: host
luriellp-com.mail.protection.outlook.com[104.47.57.138] said: 550 5.7.511
Access denied, banned sender[50.116.29.164]. To request removal from this
list please forward this message to del...@messaging.microsoft.com. For
more information please go to
http://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=526653. AS(1410)
[DM6NAM11FT045.eop-nam11.prod.protection.outlook.com] (in reply to RCPT TO
command)

--B85F62C6A1.1641995895/mx.oustrencats.com
Content-Description: Delivery report
Content-Type: message/delivery-status

Reporting-MTA: dns; mx.oustrencats.com
X-Postfix-Queue-ID: B85F62C6A1
X-Postfix-Sender: rfc822; j...@johngateley.com
Arrival-Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2022 13:58:14 + (UTC)

Final-Recipient: rfc822; x...@luriellp.com
Original-Recipient: rfc822;x...@luriellp.com
Action: failed
Status: 5.7.511
Remote-MTA: dns; luriellp-com.mail.protection.outlook.com
Diagnostic-Code: smtp; 550 5.7.511 Access denied, banned sender[50.116.29.164].
To request removal from this list please forward this message to
del...@messaging.microsoft.com. For more information please go to
http://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=526653. AS(1410)
[DM6NAM11FT045.eop-nam11.prod.protection.outlook.com]

--B85F62C6A1.1641995895/mx.oustrencats.com
Content-Description: Undelivered Message
Content-Type: message/rfc822
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Return-Path: 
Received: from [192.168.1.240] (unknown [66.85.230.183])
(using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits))
(No client certificate requested)
by mx.oustrencats.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id B85F62C6A1
for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2022 13:58:14 + (UTC)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=johngateley.com;
s=mail; t=1641995894;
bh=Hs1p96Jr9I4B4T5ZXve9x2AIZ0gFpZe/aoln0Ww07ko=;
h=Date:To:From:Subject:From;
b=Kab7hGqrn/ItZx5VDE7VPnDwiltaR+MQw/E5gZpjfXgjswAyX2Oh/aLhDCbEVuhQh
 wR07hmXn9J+ZRw5tLsWkwK5aEQx9EkOg78yECGQHuyiOtgEPwdaOMoMT668kENkJsw
 ENsyAIbQzizcf0OMmT8pJtYvD1ES+YG2q4KItbLc=
Message-ID: <6236bc2c-2324-c7aa-1c74-5461d6564...@johngateley.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2022 08:58:13 -0500

Re: [mailop] [EXTERNAL] Re: Looking for a hotmail/outlook contact

[Michael Wise via mailop]

The only real contact ... is the web form.
After the automated response telling you they refuse to mitigate it, reply to 
that email and you will be talking to a human.

https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkID=614866

Aloha, 
Michael.
-- 
Michael J Wise
Microsoft Corporation| Spam Analysis
"Your Spam Specimen Has Been Processed."
Open a ticket for Hotmail ?

-Original Message-
From: mailop  On Behalf Of Liam Fisher via mailop
Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2022 1:31 PM
To: Graeme Fowler ; mailop 
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [mailop] Looking for a hotmail/outlook contact

Ok 
 
I have three servers:
smarth-prod1.sys.elnk.net has address 24.41.67.41
smarth-prod2.sys.elnk.net has address 24.41.67.42
smarth-prod3.sys.elnk.net has address 24.41.67.43
 
That we use for customer forwards.  Detected spam filtered out.

All three were severely rate limited/blocked over the holiday, and delist took 
forever to
get back to us and we managed to get .41 and .42  delisted.

.43 sends the same traffic as the other two and they are refusing to delist it.

They are closing the ticket after every request.  No dialog, no questions 
answered.
 
I have a lot of mutual customer complaints.
 
 
 
-Original Message-
From: Graeme Fowler 
Sent: Jan 12, 2022 3:50 PM
To: mailop 
Subject: Re: [mailop] Looking for a hotmail/outlook contact
 
Liam
 
On 12 Jan 2022, at 20:29, Liam Fisher via mailop wrote:
> Looking for a hotmail/outlook contact
 
Background detail is required here. Your name is all we have; an explanation of 
the issue you need to make contact about (IP addresses, domains etc) is needed.
 
Graeme
(not an MS employee)
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Re: [mailop] What am I supposed to do with abuse complaints on legit mail?

[Doug Royer via mailop]

On 1/10/22 13:56, Matt Vernhout via mailop wrote:

Also check which email client they are using. For example Thunderbird, or 
another plugin, may move mail from the inbox to the junk folder without the 
user taking action.

Thus potentially generating a complaint without the user's knowledge.


Thunderbird has under "Junk Settings", the ability to white list anyone in 
contacts, collected addresses, ...



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Doug Royer - ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ (http://DougRoyer.US) douglas.ro...@gmail.com 
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Re: [mailop] Looking for a hotmail/outlook contact

[Liam Fisher via mailop]

Ok 
 
I have three servers:
smarth-prod1.sys.elnk.net has address 24.41.67.41
smarth-prod2.sys.elnk.net has address 24.41.67.42
smarth-prod3.sys.elnk.net has address 24.41.67.43
 
That we use for customer forwards.  Detected spam filtered out.

All three were severely rate limited/blocked over the holiday, and delist took 
forever to
get back to us and we managed to get .41 and .42  delisted.

.43 sends the same traffic as the other two and they are refusing to delist it.

They are closing the ticket after every request.  No dialog, no questions 
answered.
 
I have a lot of mutual customer complaints.
 
 
 
-Original Message-
From: Graeme Fowler 
Sent: Jan 12, 2022 3:50 PM
To: mailop 
Subject: Re: [mailop] Looking for a hotmail/outlook contact
 
Liam
 
On 12 Jan 2022, at 20:29, Liam Fisher via mailop wrote:
> Looking for a hotmail/outlook contact
 
Background detail is required here. Your name is all we have; an explanation of 
the issue you need to make contact about (IP addresses, domains etc) is needed.
 
Graeme
(not an MS employee)
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Re: [mailop] What am I supposed to do with abuse complaints on legit mail?

[Jarland Donnell via mailop]

I feel like I'm piling on with all of the great opinions on the topic 
already, but I like to share what I know even if it isn't much.


The only feedback loop I have to look out for is Fastmail. They send 
their feedback loop through Senderscore like many other providers, but 
unlike others sent through Senderscore theirs doesn't require any user 
interaction, by default it's just emails their filters put in the spam 
folder. Of course, other feedback loops work this way too but they're 
the only one I'm aware of that I get through Senderscore, which 
otherwise seems to consist solely of emails that users actually click 
"Report spam" on.


Outside of Senderscore (I mention them a lot because that's the bulk of 
my inbound FBL traffic), it could be a bit of a toss up as to which 
providers are requiring users to click "Report Spam" and which ones are 
merely informing you that their spam filters put an email in the spam 
folder. All this to say, don't jump to conclusions too quickly, but if 
you have confirmation that this FBL does come from the "Report spam" 
button as Yahoo's seems to be, I'll tell you exactly what I do. I add 
them to a global block list and they will never again receive any email 
from any of my customers until they reach out privately and express 
their commitment to actively making sure that they are not responsible 
for doing it again.


In my mind it's not at all controversial or combative. If a user clicks 
"Report spam" and they never get an email from my platform again, to me 
that just sounds like the two of us collaborating on the desired end 
goal for both parties.


On 2022-01-10 13:10, Douglas Vought via mailop wrote:

Hi list,

I have a customer I send mail to. They want the mail. It's not
marketing or bulk mail. As soon as I received an abuse/antispam
report, I stopped sending mail to the customer.

I told the customer I removed her from email as I interpreted the
abuse report as a request to stop mailing her. She said, "no, I want
to keep receiving these emails and I didn't mark any of them as spam".

But it happened again. The Yahoo anti-spam feedback system is saying
an email we sent her is abuse.

Does anyone have any tips on handling abuse complaints on legit email?

Best,

Douglas

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Re: [mailop] [EXTERNAL] blocked by microsoft -- support procedure?

[Fisher, Liam via mailop]

I have a case where we are just going in circles with tier 1 - we had 
three servers blocked,


they delisted two  of them but refuse to delist the third.



On 1/11/2022 4:00 PM, Michael Wise via mailop wrote:

delist@ is very much monitored, but December saw an incredible increase in 
abusive traffic thru our system, and responses ... have been delayed.

Aloha,
Michael.

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Re: [mailop] Looking for a hotmail/outlook contact

[Graeme Fowler via mailop]

Liam

On 12 Jan 2022, at 20:29, Liam Fisher via mailop  wrote:
> Looking for a hotmail/outlook contact

Background detail is required here. Your name is all we have; an explanation of 
the issue you need to make contact about (IP addresses, domains etc) is needed.

Graeme
(not an MS employee)
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[mailop] Looking for a hotmail/outlook contact

[Liam Fisher via mailop]

Looking for a hotmail/outlook contact
 
please reply
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Re: [mailop] What am I supposed to do with abuse complaints on legit mail?

[Alessandro Vesely via mailop]

On Wed 12/Jan/2022 02:15:21 +0100 Matt Palmer via mailop wrote:

On Tue, Jan 11, 2022 at 11:40:10AM +, Laura Atkins via mailop wrote:

On 11 Jan 2022, at 10:25, Alessandro Vesely via mailop  
wrote:
On Tue 11/Jan/2022 07:40:31 +0100 Hans-Martin Mosner via mailop wrote:

As a list admin, you're between a rock and a hard place.  In some
cases, unsubscribing the user who unknowingly caused the spam report is
indeed the easiest way out.  If you find that your interest in keeping
the subscriber on the list weighs more than their interest in staying
on the list you should question the motivation of that list.  Of
course, there are valid reasons, such as when you're contractually or
legally required to regularly inform customers.  But when the
subscription to your list is entirely optional, I'd say out with them.


On the opposite, lists seem to me to be the easiest case.  Like in the
usual behavior of web interface, to unsubscribe send a confirmation
request whereby the user can confirm unsub or just forget it.  That way,
users can solve by themselves the question, for both automatic and
manually generated spam reports.


There are few things users hate more than getting a “did you really mean
to unsubscribe” email from companies they unsubscribed from.  I’m pretty
sure I can point to multiple rants and examples and companies being
treated horribly on this mailing list when senders do that.  I can see
“did you really mean to report our mail as spam” generating similar
negative feelings.


There's quite a difference between a list that was affirmatively subscribed
to by the user (or at least their e-mail address), compared to a list you
got subscribed to because some marketing weenie trawled the contact
database.



Mailman asks a password to set email preferences, but no password to 
unsubscribe.  So it is also possible that someone else unsubscribes your 
address for you.  In fact I myself did unsubscribe someone else a few times: 
after FBL reports of my own posts, which are not hated less than confirmations.


Anyway, REPORT, DONT REPORT is quite hard to ask by email.

Best
Ale
--





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