Re: [mailop] One click unsubscribe in mailing list messages
Dňa 25. februára 2024 3:10:51 UTC používateľ Philip Paeps via mailop napísal: >Not being able to present information in the Subject: or body clearly isn't >ideal, but it's better than breaking DKIM. List-* headers have been in >widespread use for over twenty years. The bad part is, that eg. exim by default (over)signs List-* headers nonexistence, thus adding them will break its DKIM anyway. I don't know how many exims (providers) uses that default, but our job's email provider do that. When i complained, i got response, that it is right and i do not understand DKIM... :-D regards -- Slavko https://www.slavino.sk/ ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] One click unsubscribe in mailing list messages
Am 25.02.24 um 04:10 schrieb Philip Paeps via mailop: It's actually encouraging to see the web-MUAs driving improvement in this space. Parsing List-Unsubscribe: to present a button feels like a very obvious thing to do. It's surprising how few traditional MUAs have ever done that. Yes. I'm looking at you, thunderbird... This should be a no-brainer, and it's a shame that the major open source MUA doesn't seem to support it. There's probably an add-on to do this, I just can't access the thunderbird add-on search at the moment, so don't know for sure. Cheers, Hans-Martin ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] One click unsubscribe in mailing list messages
On 2/24/2024 5:25 PM, Philip Paeps via mailop wrote: On the whole, I think not meddling with the body (and not breaking DKIM) provides an improved mailing list experience. We don't have to rewrite the From: header, and "reply" works the way the poster intends. Neither the mailing list software nor the recipient has to guess. Sounds like a win. Generally, whatever is typically put in the footer can reasonably be move to a header field, although of course that means users will typically not automatically have it presented to them. A different issue is that it tends to be helpful for the Subject field to show that a mailing list is involved, though that will typically break DKIM... d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net mast:@dcrocker@mastodon.social ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] One click unsubscribe in mailing list messages
On 2024-02-25 09:48:23 (+0700), Dave Crocker wrote: On 2/24/2024 5:25 PM, Philip Paeps via mailop wrote: On the whole, I think not meddling with the body (and not breaking DKIM) provides an improved mailing list experience. We don't have to rewrite the From: header, and "reply" works the way the poster intends. Neither the mailing list software nor the recipient has to guess. Sounds like a win. Generally, whatever is typically put in the footer can reasonably be move to a header field, although of course that means users will typically not automatically have it presented to them. A different issue is that it tends to be helpful for the Subject field to show that a mailing list is involved, though that will typically break DKIM... We also stopped prefixing the Subject: header with information duplicated from the List-Id header. Not being able to present information in the Subject: or body clearly isn't ideal, but it's better than breaking DKIM. List-* headers have been in widespread use for over twenty years. I hope MUAs will finally start displaying them. It's actually encouraging to see the web-MUAs driving improvement in this space. Parsing List-Unsubscribe: to present a button feels like a very obvious thing to do. It's surprising how few traditional MUAs have ever done that. Philip -- Philip Paeps Senior Reality Engineer Alternative Enterprises ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] One click unsubscribe in mailing list messages
On 2024-02-24 04:39:46 (+0700), Mark Fletcher via mailop wrote: I run an email groups hosting service. For many years now, each group message has included a one click unsubscribe link in the message footer. We also include appropriate List-Unsubscribe-Post: List-Unsubscribe=One-Click headers. The problem with including a one-click unsubscribe link in the message bodies occurs when a group message is forwarded to someone else, and they click on the link, unsubscribing the original person. We have an easy one-click resubscribe system for this, but it's still not wonderful and occasionally causes problems/confusion. My question to you all is, do you think that the List-Unsubscribe=One-Click header is supported well enough these days such that I can replace the one-click unsub link in the message bodies with a link that requires authentication? Also, do you think doing so would adversely affect our distribution? To avoid breaking DKIM, we stopped adding footers to messages posted to FreeBSD.org mailing lists. We only have the List-Unsubscribe: header. We've seen a very slight uptick in "Subject: unsubscribe" posts to the mailing lists (and to postmaster@) but not enough to lose sleep over. We don't do the One-Click thing yet - we provide mailto: and an ordinary webpage. As I understand it, the mailbox services provided by large internet advertising conglomerates only require One-Click for commercial email, not for discussion lists. We'll get around to implementing One-Click eventually, but it hasn't been a priority. On the whole, I think not meddling with the body (and not breaking DKIM) provides an improved mailing list experience. We don't have to rewrite the From: header, and "reply" works the way the poster intends. Neither the mailing list software nor the recipient has to guess. Philip -- Philip Paeps Senior Reality Engineer Alternative Enterprises ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] One click unsubscribe in mailing list messages
Dnia 24.02.2024 o godz. 13:16:45 Anne P. Mitchell, Esq. via mailop pisze: > > pointing out that Federal law mandates a one-step method; completely Not everybody is located in the USA, and "federal" law has no meaning to those who don't. > two-step method, even though a one-step is implicit in the law's "visiting > a single Internet Web page" (i.e. having to click 'submit' on that page > takes you to a second page, making it not 'visiting a single Internet Web > page") That's simply not true. I routinely write scripts that after clicking "submit" take you back to the same web page, ie. to the same URL. The content on that page, however, doesn't need to be the same :) That's actually the default behavior of a form if you specify an empty ACTION="" attribute in the HTML FORM tag. You can also write the script so that it doesn't leave the page at all after clicking "submit", and only sends the data internally to the server using AJAX and displays the response that is received back, all without ever leaving the page. -- Regards, Jaroslaw Rafa r...@rafa.eu.org -- "In a million years, when kids go to school, they're gonna know: once there was a Hushpuppy, and she lived with her daddy in the Bathtub." ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] One click unsubscribe in mailing list messages
IMHO, and I’m not a lawyer like Anne, but I think in common language what she is trying to explain. Like in GDPR which makes it so you can decline cookie data, that link is just one cookie, and they give us the option to decline other cookies but necessary or leave the site all together. Is this the gist of the current legal framework in the US? > On Feb 24, 2024, at 3:19 PM, Anne P. Mitchell, Esq. via mailop > wrote: > > > >> On Feb 24, 2024, at 12:41 PM, Andrew C Aitchison >> wrote: >> >> Do you read "visiting a single Internet Web page" >> as excluding interaction with that page ? >> >> If so, how do I provide my opt-out preferences by ... >> "visiting a single Internet Web page" ? > > A strict construction of that language would suggest to me that yes, that's > what it says - *however*, I also don't think that's what was intended, and it > is on these ambiguous (regardless of how slightly) turns of phrase that > entire cases are decided. > > If I were brought in on a case that turned on deciding what this language > meant, I could argue either side, and convincingly so, I believe. > > Anne > > --- > Anne P. Mitchell, Esq. > Email Law & Policy Attorney > CEO Institute for Social Internet Public Policy (ISIPP) > Author: Section 6 of the CAN-SPAM Act of 2003 (the Federal email marketing > law) > Creator of the term 'deliverability' and founder of the deliverability > industry > Author: The Email Deliverability Handbook > Board of Directors, Denver Internet Exchange > Dean Emeritus, Cyberlaw & Cybersecurity, Lincoln Law School > Prof. Emeritus, Lincoln Law School > Chair Emeritus, Asilomar Microcomputer Workshop > Counsel Emeritus, eMail Abuse Prevention System (MAPS) > > ___ > mailop mailing list > mailop@mailop.org > https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] One click unsubscribe in mailing list messages
> On Feb 24, 2024, at 12:41 PM, Andrew C Aitchison > wrote: > > Do you read "visiting a single Internet Web page" > as excluding interaction with that page ? > > If so, how do I provide my opt-out preferences by ... > "visiting a single Internet Web page" ? A strict construction of that language would suggest to me that yes, that's what it says - *however*, I also don't think that's what was intended, and it is on these ambiguous (regardless of how slightly) turns of phrase that entire cases are decided. If I were brought in on a case that turned on deciding what this language meant, I could argue either side, and convincingly so, I believe. Anne --- Anne P. Mitchell, Esq. Email Law & Policy Attorney CEO Institute for Social Internet Public Policy (ISIPP) Author: Section 6 of the CAN-SPAM Act of 2003 (the Federal email marketing law) Creator of the term 'deliverability' and founder of the deliverability industry Author: The Email Deliverability Handbook Board of Directors, Denver Internet Exchange Dean Emeritus, Cyberlaw & Cybersecurity, Lincoln Law School Prof. Emeritus, Lincoln Law School Chair Emeritus, Asilomar Microcomputer Workshop Counsel Emeritus, eMail Abuse Prevention System (MAPS) ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] One click unsubscribe in mailing list messages
> > You're confusing unrelated things. The one-click unsubscribe is > literally one click, no intermediate web page or anything returned to > the user. It's intended for mail systems that do the unsub on the > user's behalf. The most familiar is Gmail, where you can click the > junk button, and it sometimes gives you the option to unsubscribe > instead. No I'm not, I'm simply adding to the general conversation, as somewhere in the thread there was talk about removing the link altogether, and I'm pointing out that Federal law mandates a one-step method; completely removing an unsub link (and, for example, relying on the one-step in the header) could open one up to risk. > I'd be interested to see case law saying that the usual > two-click unsub is illegal. I'm pretty sure there isn't any. I would too, but of course that part of the law has never been litigated, and I think it's unlikely to. When we are asked whether it's ok to have a two-step method, even though a one-step is implicit in the law's "visiting a single Internet Web page" (i.e. having to click 'submit' on that page takes you to a second page, making it not 'visiting a single Internet Web page") we answer based on experience and pragmatism: no Federal agency is likely to come after you for having that second step, so long as you are doing everything else that you are supposed to. Where I think that it's going to get interesting is when senders start removing the visible, in the body, unsub link that people are used to looking for, and relying _only_ on the header-embedded unsub. And that is more likely from where the litigation will come. Anne --- Anne P. Mitchell, Esq. Email Law & Policy Attorney CEO Institute for Social Internet Public Policy (ISIPP) Author: Section 6 of the CAN-SPAM Act of 2003 (the Federal email marketing law) Creator of the term 'deliverability' and founder of the deliverability industry Author: The Email Deliverability Handbook Board of Directors, Denver Internet Exchange Dean Emeritus, Cyberlaw & Cybersecurity, Lincoln Law School Prof. Emeritus, Lincoln Law School Chair Emeritus, Asilomar Microcomputer Workshop Counsel Emeritus, eMail Abuse Prevention System (MAPS) ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] One click unsubscribe in mailing list messages
On Sat, 24 Feb 2024, Anne P. Mitchell, Esq. via mailop wrote: Not to mention that Federal law requires a one-step unsubscribe method. As I often seem to get challenged on this, here is the text of the law: "§ 316.5 Prohibition on charging a fee or imposing other requirements on recipients who wish to opt out. Neither a sender nor any person acting on behalf of a sender may require that any recipient pay any fee, provide any information other than the recipient’s electronic mail address and opt-out preferences, or take any other steps except sending a reply electronic mail message or visiting a single Internet Web page, in order to: (a) Use a return electronic mail address or other Internet-based mechanism, required by 15 U.S.C. 7704(a)(3), to submit a request not to receive future commercial electronic mail messages from a sender; or (b) Have such a request honored as required by 15 U.S.C. 7704(a)(3)(B) and (a)(4)." You can read more about it, in plain English, here: https://www.isipp.com/a-one-step-unsubscribe-is-required-by-federal-law/ Do you read "visiting a single Internet Web page" as excluding interaction with that page ? If so, how do I provide my opt-out preferences by ... "visiting a single Internet Web page" ? -- Andrew C. Aitchison Kendal, UK and...@aitchison.me.uk___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] One click unsubscribe in mailing list messages
It appears that Marco Moock via mailop said: >Am Fri, 23 Feb 2024 13:39:46 -0800 >schrieb Mark Fletcher via mailop : > >> My question to you all is, do you think that the >> List-Unsubscribe=One-Click header is supported well enough these days >> such that I can replace the one-click unsub link in the message >> bodies with a link that requires authentication? > >No, many MUAs still don't support it and webmailers too. >Do you know which applications actually support those headers? Gmail and Yahoo require it so I think it's safe to assume that they support it. I see that Apple mail does on both mobile and Mac, as do minor MUAs like Alpine. The main laggard is Microsoft. Big surprise. R's, John ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] One click unsubscribe in mailing list messages
It appears that Anne P. Mitchell, Esq. via mailop said: > > >> On Feb 23, 2024, at 4:59 PM, John Levine via mailop >> wrote: >> >> 'd leave the links in the bodies for now. A lot of mail programs give >> you a way to use the ones in the header, but some major ones like >> Outlook still don't. > >Not to mention that Federal law requires a one-step unsubscribe method. > >As I often seem to get challenged on this, here is the text of the law: You're confusing unrelated things. The one-click unsubscribe is literally one click, no intermediate web page or anything returned to the user. It's intended for mail systems that do the unsub on the user's behalf. The most familiar is Gmail, where you can click the junk button, and it sometimes gives you the option to unsubscribe instead. It is fine for a regular unsubscribe link to land on a page that asks you to click on a button to confirm you meant it. As people have been saying, that avoids false alarms from malware scanners. As I assume you know, 15 U.S.C. 7704(a)(3)(B) specifically allows the sender to provide a menu of opt-out options. If you think that's wrong, I'd be interested to see case law saying that the usual two-click unsub is illegal. I'm pretty sure there isn't any. R's, John >"§ 316.5 Prohibition on charging a fee or imposing other requirements on >recipients who wish to opt out. >Neither a sender nor any person acting on behalf of a sender may require that >any recipient pay any fee, provide any information other than the recipient’s >electronic mail address and opt-out preferences, or take any other steps >except sending a reply electronic mail message or visiting a single Internet >Web page, >in order to: > >(a) Use a return electronic mail address or other Internet-based mechanism, >required by 15 U.S.C. 7704(a)(3), to submit a request not to receive future >commercial electronic mail messages from a sender; or > >(b) Have such a request honored as required by 15 U.S.C. 7704(a)(3)(B) and >(a)(4)." ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] One click unsubscribe in mailing list messages
> On Feb 23, 2024, at 4:59 PM, John Levine via mailop wrote: > > 'd leave the links in the bodies for now. A lot of mail programs give > you a way to use the ones in the header, but some major ones like > Outlook still don't. Not to mention that Federal law requires a one-step unsubscribe method. As I often seem to get challenged on this, here is the text of the law: "§ 316.5 Prohibition on charging a fee or imposing other requirements on recipients who wish to opt out. Neither a sender nor any person acting on behalf of a sender may require that any recipient pay any fee, provide any information other than the recipient’s electronic mail address and opt-out preferences, or take any other steps except sending a reply electronic mail message or visiting a single Internet Web page, in order to: (a) Use a return electronic mail address or other Internet-based mechanism, required by 15 U.S.C. 7704(a)(3), to submit a request not to receive future commercial electronic mail messages from a sender; or (b) Have such a request honored as required by 15 U.S.C. 7704(a)(3)(B) and (a)(4)." You can read more about it, in plain English, here: https://www.isipp.com/a-one-step-unsubscribe-is-required-by-federal-law/ Anne --- Anne P. Mitchell, Esq. Email Law & Policy Attorney CEO Institute for Social Internet Public Policy (ISIPP) Author: Section 6 of the CAN-SPAM Act of 2003 (the Federal email marketing law) Creator of the term 'deliverability' and founder of the deliverability industry Author: The Email Deliverability Handbook Board of Directors, Denver Internet Exchange Dean Emeritus, Cyberlaw & Cybersecurity, Lincoln Law School Prof. Emeritus, Lincoln Law School Chair Emeritus, Asilomar Microcomputer Workshop Counsel Emeritus, eMail Abuse Prevention System (MAPS) ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
