Re: [mailop] Hotmail/Outlook feedback loop processing delay?

2018-01-10 Thread Michael Wise via mailop 


Sometimes called, "Code Coverage"

Aloha,
Michael.
--
Michael J Wise
Microsoft Corporation| Spam Analysis
"Your Spam Specimen Has Been Processed."
Got the Junk Mail Reporting 
Tool<http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=18275> ?



-Original Message-
From: mailop [mailto:mailop-boun...@mailop.org] On Behalf Of Michael Rathbun
Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2018 8:03 AM
To: mailop <mailop@mailop.org>
Subject: Re: [mailop] Hotmail/Outlook feedback loop processing delay?



On Wed, 10 Jan 2018 09:53:15 -0500, Al Iverson 
<aiver...@wombatmail.com<mailto:aiver...@wombatmail.com>>

wrote:



>I agree 100% here. Could there be a bug? Sure. Is it likely, based on

>the data scene so far? No, not really.



Agreed.  Withal the fact that the platform is nearing the end of a massive

conversion/merge suggests above-average weight be given to the "bug"

possibility.  The platform merge was in its earlier stages when I moved on

from Microsoft and EOP, but interesting interactions were surfacing even then.



Thinking of a suddenly critical exercise when I was at Ford,



"Wait, why would this module suddenly start failing?  It's been in the

software for over five years!"



"Yeah, but parts of the code have never been called on to do this kind of

stuff until this module had to interact with the new modules.  Some parts of

the code apparently never execute at all in the previous environment."



mdr

--

Fail-safe systems fail by failing to fail safe.





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Re: [mailop] Hotmail/Outlook feedback loop processing delay?

2018-01-10 Thread valdis . kletnieks 
On Tue, 09 Jan 2018 20:59:04 +0200, Sotiris Tsimbonis said:
> Hi all,
>
> I received today (9 Jan 2018) a message from outlook's feedback loop
> with a message that was originally sent to a hotmail address on 30 Jan 2017.

Just as a gentle reminder - sometimes the Date: is incorrect because
the system clock on the box is horribly broken.  It's amazing how long
stuff runs on autopilot - as of last year, there were still some 800 systems
that were pointing  NTP at one certain IP address that used to be in my office
running a stratum-2 NTP server.

The weird part?  That box was removed from the public 'clocks.txt' document
in 1998 and decommissioned in 1999, the IP never re-used.

Think about that for a bit.


pgpG44g9l4Lvp.pgp
Description: PGP signature
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Re: [mailop] Hotmail/Outlook feedback loop processing delay?

2018-01-10 Thread Michael Rathbun 
On Wed, 10 Jan 2018 09:53:15 -0500, Al Iverson 
wrote:

>I agree 100% here. Could there be a bug? Sure. Is it likely, based on
>the data scene so far? No, not really.

Agreed.  Withal the fact that the platform is nearing the end of a massive
conversion/merge suggests above-average weight be given to the "bug"
possibility.  The platform merge was in its earlier stages when I moved on
from Microsoft and EOP, but interesting interactions were surfacing even then.

Thinking of a suddenly critical exercise when I was at Ford,

"Wait, why would this module suddenly start failing?  It's been in the
software for over five years!"

"Yeah, but parts of the code have never been called on to do this kind of
stuff until this module had to interact with the new modules.  Some parts of
the code apparently never execute at all in the previous environment."

mdr
-- 
Fail-safe systems fail by failing to fail safe.


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Re: [mailop] Hotmail/Outlook feedback loop processing delay?

2018-01-10 Thread Al Iverson 
On Wed, Jan 10, 2018 at 2:54 AM, Stefano Bagnara  wrote:
> On 10 January 2018 at 08:16, Sotiris Tsimbonis  wrote:
>> [...] They did
>> not report it as spam yesterday, they only viewed it. They don't use an
>> email client, they only use the web interface provided by hotmail.
>
> I often heard story like this... the fact is that this "i never marked
> it as spam" is always from a non-techie person..
> - Sometimes they lie, because they didn't know you spy on their
> "junking habits", so they simply deny when you ask why they did
> something they didn't know you could "monitor".
> - Sometimes they don't even know what is the spam button (some of them
> think it is like trash, some of them don't know at all).
> - Sometimes they happen to click on stuff without really recognizing they did.
>
> We run a SaaS and very often our users say they never did something
> until we dig in the logs and have evidence they really did that, so my
> first think is always "everybody lies" (sometimes they are not really
> aware they are lying, they simply never read/tried to understood and
> thought that "permanently delete" means "hide this for a while").
>
> It is possible there is a bug in the platform, but I still have to get
> similar reports from a trusted source or see the behaviour with my
> eyes. So, I think you should take this at least as an option (and use
> Occam's razor).

I agree 100% here. Could there be a bug? Sure. Is it likely, based on
the data scene so far? No, not really.

If it were a bug that just viewing an old email triggered a spam
report, I think that we ESP platforms would all be flooded with stuff
like this, and that's not happening.

And users do definitely get confused about this sort of thing. ESPs
have to explain FBLs is detail to clients, and not all clients
understand it. If a fair number of email sending clients don't
understand it, then an even higher number of email receiving end users
probably don't understand it.

Cheers,
Al Iverson

-- 
al iverson // wombatmail // miami
http://www.aliverson.com
http://www.spamresource.com

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Re: [mailop] Hotmail/Outlook feedback loop processing delay?

2018-01-10 Thread David Hofstee 
> It was not on their inbox, so they used search to find all emails from us
and last year's email
> came up. So they clicked on last year's email and opened it. They did
not report it as spam
> yesterday, they only viewed it. They don't use an  email client, they
only use the web interface
> provided by hotmail.
If you have open tracking with https, you can see in what folder the email
was opened (if you log the referer).

Yours,


David

On 10 January 2018 at 08:54, Stefano Bagnara  wrote:

> On 10 January 2018 at 08:16, Sotiris Tsimbonis  wrote:
> > [...] They did
> > not report it as spam yesterday, they only viewed it. They don't use an
> > email client, they only use the web interface provided by hotmail.
>
> I often heard story like this... the fact is that this "i never marked
> it as spam" is always from a non-techie person..
> - Sometimes they lie, because they didn't know you spy on their
> "junking habits", so they simply deny when you ask why they did
> something they didn't know you could "monitor".
> - Sometimes they don't even know what is the spam button (some of them
> think it is like trash, some of them don't know at all).
> - Sometimes they happen to click on stuff without really recognizing they
> did.
>
> We run a SaaS and very often our users say they never did something
> until we dig in the logs and have evidence they really did that, so my
> first think is always "everybody lies" (sometimes they are not really
> aware they are lying, they simply never read/tried to understood and
> thought that "permanently delete" means "hide this for a while").
>
> It is possible there is a bug in the platform, but I still have to get
> similar reports from a trusted source or see the behaviour with my
> eyes. So, I think you should take this at least as an option (and use
> Occam's razor).
>
> > So it's not bulk moving emails to junk using imap. Opening the email
> > yesterday triggered the fbl process somehow.
> >
> > I'm still not quite certain of how it works, but Mihai Costea also
> > posted that 1% of their fbl reports are back from 2016 ...
>
> I don't see anything weird from that. People can mark as spam any
> email, even if the email has been received a lot of time ago.
> He told that he searched the email, maybe they also marked it as spam:
> this kind of action could have the legitimate result to send an FBL
> for an old message.
>
> It sound like an expected distribution:
> 0.1% per month (1% in 10 months) 2 years ago
> 0.4% per month (4% in 10 months) 1 year ago
> 2.5% per month (5% in 2 months) 3 months ago
> 90% per month (90% in 1 the last month).
>
> If you do open-tracking you can see similar distributions with
> messages being opened even after many years. If they are opened after
> years there's nothing weird to see they are sometimes also marked as
> spam after years.
>
> Stefano
>
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-- 
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My opinion is mine.
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Re: [mailop] Hotmail/Outlook feedback loop processing delay?

2018-01-09 Thread Stefano Bagnara 
On 10 January 2018 at 08:16, Sotiris Tsimbonis  wrote:
> [...] They did
> not report it as spam yesterday, they only viewed it. They don't use an
> email client, they only use the web interface provided by hotmail.

I often heard story like this... the fact is that this "i never marked
it as spam" is always from a non-techie person..
- Sometimes they lie, because they didn't know you spy on their
"junking habits", so they simply deny when you ask why they did
something they didn't know you could "monitor".
- Sometimes they don't even know what is the spam button (some of them
think it is like trash, some of them don't know at all).
- Sometimes they happen to click on stuff without really recognizing they did.

We run a SaaS and very often our users say they never did something
until we dig in the logs and have evidence they really did that, so my
first think is always "everybody lies" (sometimes they are not really
aware they are lying, they simply never read/tried to understood and
thought that "permanently delete" means "hide this for a while").

It is possible there is a bug in the platform, but I still have to get
similar reports from a trusted source or see the behaviour with my
eyes. So, I think you should take this at least as an option (and use
Occam's razor).

> So it's not bulk moving emails to junk using imap. Opening the email
> yesterday triggered the fbl process somehow.
>
> I'm still not quite certain of how it works, but Mihai Costea also
> posted that 1% of their fbl reports are back from 2016 ...

I don't see anything weird from that. People can mark as spam any
email, even if the email has been received a lot of time ago.
He told that he searched the email, maybe they also marked it as spam:
this kind of action could have the legitimate result to send an FBL
for an old message.

It sound like an expected distribution:
0.1% per month (1% in 10 months) 2 years ago
0.4% per month (4% in 10 months) 1 year ago
2.5% per month (5% in 2 months) 3 months ago
90% per month (90% in 1 the last month).

If you do open-tracking you can see similar distributions with
messages being opened even after many years. If they are opened after
years there's nothing weird to see they are sometimes also marked as
spam after years.

Stefano

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Re: [mailop] Hotmail/Outlook feedback loop processing delay?

2018-01-09 Thread Sotiris Tsimbonis 
On 9/1/18 21:12, Al Iverson wrote:
> Likely the user reported it as spam in the last 24 hours. No ISP is
> knowingly sitting on complaints for almost a year.
> 
> You'll probably never know for sure unless you were to ask that user
> (and assuming that you will trust their answer).

We actually contacted the user and asked. Their story goes like this:

Yesterday they were looking for an email from us, which was supposed to
arrive yesterday (it was a contract renewal). It was not on their inbox,
so they used search to find all emails from us and last year's email
came up. So they clicked on last year's email and opened it. They did
not report it as spam yesterday, they only viewed it. They don't use an
email client, they only use the web interface provided by hotmail.

So it's not bulk moving emails to junk using imap. Opening the email
yesterday triggered the fbl process somehow.

I'm still not quite certain of how it works, but Mihai Costea also
posted that 1% of their fbl reports are back from 2016 ...

Sotiris.

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Re: [mailop] Hotmail/Outlook feedback loop processing delay?

2018-01-09 Thread Charles McKean 
On Tue, Jan 9, 2018 at 3:45 PM, Bill Cole
 wrote:
> On 9 Jan 2018, at 14:53, Stefano Bagnara wrote:
>
>> Also, another user here reported that recently Microsoft introduced
>> automations so that an user moving messages from inbox to spam via
>> IMAP (also in bulk) automatically create abuse reports/FBL.
>
> That's horrifying. It's oblivious bulk misreporting by conscious design.

And yours is hyperbole, overstating an opinion grossly in an attempt
to draw a response.

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Re: [mailop] Hotmail/Outlook feedback loop processing delay?

2018-01-09 Thread Bill Cole 
On 9 Jan 2018, at 14:53, Stefano Bagnara wrote:

> Also, another user here reported that recently Microsoft introduced
> automations so that an user moving messages from inbox to spam via
> IMAP (also in bulk) automatically create abuse reports/FBL.

That's horrifying. It's oblivious bulk misreporting by conscious design.

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Re: [mailop] Hotmail/Outlook feedback loop processing delay?

2018-01-09 Thread Michael Wise via mailop 


That last bit should only be for Office365 accounts ... I think.

Aloha,
Michael.
--
Michael J Wise
Microsoft Corporation| Spam Analysis
"Your Spam Specimen Has Been Processed."
Got the Junk Mail Reporting 
Tool<http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=18275> ?



-Original Message-
From: mailop [mailto:mailop-boun...@mailop.org] On Behalf Of Stefano Bagnara
Sent: Tuesday, January 9, 2018 11:54 AM
To: mailop <mailop@mailop.org>
Subject: Re: [mailop] Hotmail/Outlook feedback loop processing delay?



On 9 January 2018 at 19:59, Sotiris Tsimbonis 
<sts...@x33.gr<mailto:sts...@x33.gr>> wrote:

> I received today (9 Jan 2018) a message from outlook's feedback loop

> with a message that was originally sent to a hotmail address on 30 Jan 2017.

> [...]

> Is it because the hotmail user marked it as spam today?



Most likely.

Sometimes an use mark as spam something received today and the UI let

him mark as spam all of the previous email from the same sender, so

you get FBL for dozens email to the same recipient.



Also, another user here reported that recently Microsoft introduced

automations so that an user moving messages from inbox to spam via

IMAP (also in bulk) automatically create abuse reports/FBL.



Stefano



--

Stefano Bagnara

Apache James/jDKIM/jSPF

VOXmail/Mosaico.io/VoidLabs



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Re: [mailop] Hotmail/Outlook feedback loop processing delay?

2018-01-09 Thread Al Iverson 
Likely the user reported it as spam in the last 24 hours. No ISP is
knowingly sitting on complaints for almost a year.

You'll probably never know for sure unless you were to ask that user
(and assuming that you will trust their answer).

Cheers,
Al Iverson

On Tue, Jan 9, 2018 at 1:59 PM, Sotiris Tsimbonis  wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I received today (9 Jan 2018) a message from outlook's feedback loop
> with a message that was originally sent to a hotmail address on 30 Jan 2017.
>
> Can someone explain why I've received it so late, almost a year after it
> was sent?
>
> Is it because the hotmail user marked it as spam today?
> Did the hotmail user mark it as spam earlier but was processed by
> hotmail today?
> Did the user do nothing, but hotmail's own processing classified it as
> spam almost a year after it was received?
> Something else?
>
> Kind regards,
> Sotiris.
>
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-- 
al iverson // wombatmail // miami
http://www.aliverson.com
http://www.spamresource.com

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[mailop] Hotmail/Outlook feedback loop processing delay?

2018-01-09 Thread Sotiris Tsimbonis 
Hi all,

I received today (9 Jan 2018) a message from outlook's feedback loop
with a message that was originally sent to a hotmail address on 30 Jan 2017.

Can someone explain why I've received it so late, almost a year after it
was sent?

Is it because the hotmail user marked it as spam today?
Did the hotmail user mark it as spam earlier but was processed by
hotmail today?
Did the user do nothing, but hotmail's own processing classified it as
spam almost a year after it was received?
Something else?

Kind regards,
Sotiris.

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