Re: [mailop] Gmail marking email from me as spam

2019-10-16 Thread Michael Rathbun via mailop
On Wed, 16 Oct 2019 17:39:21 +0100, Mark | Uniform Benefits via mailop wrote: >A comment on Microsoft escalation would be that it seems (to me at least) to >be separate for outlook/Hotmail/live etc whereas if we have an issue it >tends to be across all Microsoft domains in one go. We send from

Re: [mailop] Gmail marking email from me as spam

2019-10-16 Thread Mark | Uniform Benefits via mailop
a history on support requests and at some stage have them reviewed by a human? TIA Mark From: mailop On Behalf Of Brandon Long via mailop Sent: 15 October 2019 22:18 To: Michael Orlitzky Cc: mailop Subject: Re: [mailop] Gmail marking email from me as spam On Tue, Oct 15, 2019 at 4:36

Re: [mailop] Gmail marking email from me as spam

2019-10-15 Thread Brandon Long via mailop
On Tue, Oct 15, 2019 at 4:08 AM Jaroslaw Rafa wrote: > Dnia 14.10.2019 o godz. 13:23:30 Brandon Long via mailop pisze: > > > > Modern spam filters are a combination of good and bad signals, but if you > > have no good signal... then we only have the bad ones. > > Well, I could see at least few

Re: [mailop] Gmail marking email from me as spam

2019-10-15 Thread Brandon Long via mailop
On Tue, Oct 15, 2019 at 4:36 AM Michael Orlitzky via mailop < mailop@mailop.org> wrote: > On 10/14/19 9:29 PM, Brandon Long via mailop wrote: > > > > > > On Mon, Oct 14, 2019 at 3:54 PM Michael Orlitzky via mailop > > mailto:mailop@mailop.org>> wrote:. > > [snip] > > > > They don't care if

Re: [mailop] Gmail marking email from me as spam

2019-10-15 Thread Michael Orlitzky via mailop
On 10/14/19 9:29 PM, Brandon Long via mailop wrote: > > > On Mon, Oct 14, 2019 at 3:54 PM Michael Orlitzky via mailop > mailto:mailop@mailop.org>> wrote:. > [snip] > > They don't care if you or anyone else can send/receive mail, ... > > > It seems like Gmail wouldn't last long as an email

Re: [mailop] Gmail marking email from me as spam

2019-10-15 Thread Jaroslaw Rafa via mailop
Dnia 14.10.2019 o godz. 13:23:30 Brandon Long via mailop pisze: > > Modern spam filters are a combination of good and bad signals, but if you > have no good signal... then we only have the bad ones. Well, I could see at least few potential "good" signals - I wonder if you use these, and if yes,

Re: [mailop] Gmail marking email from me as spam

2019-10-15 Thread Jaroslaw Rafa via mailop
Dnia 14.10.2019 o godz. 23:59:23 Michael Rathbun via mailop pisze: > > >What defines spam is the *contents* of the message... > > Actually, no. Content is largely irrelevant. We almost never terminate a > hosted customer due to content. The major consideration is always consent of > the

Re: [mailop] Gmail marking email from me as spam

2019-10-14 Thread Michael Rathbun via mailop
On Mon, 14 Oct 2019 23:48:35 +0200, Jaroslaw Rafa via mailop wrote: >What defines spam is the *contents* of the message... Actually, no. Content is largely irrelevant. We almost never terminate a hosted customer due to content. The major consideration is always consent of the recipient.

Re: [mailop] Gmail marking email from me as spam

2019-10-14 Thread John Levine via mailop
In article <20191014214835.gb19...@rafa.eu.org> you write: >What does *not* define spam is from what domain or from what IP it is sent. > >Neither a) nor b) above is true in my case. So my messages are *not* spam. I guess we've looped around to the beginning so we're done. Nobody has said your

Re: [mailop] Gmail marking email from me as spam

2019-10-14 Thread Michael via mailop
As much as I would like this thread to die, had to point out.. yes, probably gmail does a great job of inbound spam protection, had an ESP recently tell me 40% of all addresses they engaged with were gmail addresses, so it behooves them to do well, wish as much attention was paid to outbound,

Re: [mailop] Gmail marking email from me as spam

2019-10-14 Thread Brandon Long via mailop
On Mon, Oct 14, 2019 at 3:54 PM Michael Orlitzky via mailop < mailop@mailop.org> wrote:. [snip] > They don't care if you or anyone else can send/receive mail, because > that's not how they make money. You're not going to convince them to > care, and so long as they don't, your problems are only

Re: [mailop] Gmail marking email from me as spam

2019-10-14 Thread Brandon Long via mailop
On Mon, Oct 14, 2019 at 3:01 PM Jaroslaw Rafa wrote: > Dnia 14.10.2019 o godz. 13:23:30 Brandon Long via mailop pisze: > > > > We do keep those stats... if you're small enough, there's no signal > there, > > however. Send 12 messages in 30 days, you're a "low volume sender", and > a > > risk.

Re: [mailop] Gmail marking email from me as spam

2019-10-14 Thread Chris Wedgwood via mailop
> You have identified the problem 100% right. But "switch providers > and pray that Google doesn't feel like blocking your new host" is > not a solution, since it requires a lot of work (and money) on my > part without any guarantee of success. So it seems that there's > actually no solution and

Re: [mailop] Gmail marking email from me as spam

2019-10-14 Thread Marc Bradshaw via mailop
On Tue, 15 Oct 2019, at 2:35 AM, Vsevolod Stakhov via mailop wrote: > > Well, the sane way to do it is to use the Public Siffix List [1]. > I don't often see the PSL described as a sane way to do anything, but in the absence of a better way it's what we have. -- Marc Bradshaw

Re: [mailop] Gmail marking email from me as spam

2019-10-14 Thread Jaroslaw Rafa via mailop
Dnia 14.10.2019 o godz. 18:52:33 Michael Orlitzky via mailop pisze: > > 1. It's not fair to judge a sender by his neighbors. > > Well, kind of. Our in-house blacklists are tended manually, and we keep > evidence for every listing so that if we later have to explain > ourselves, we can. If I get

Re: [mailop] Gmail marking email from me as spam

2019-10-14 Thread Michael Orlitzky via mailop
On 10/14/19 6:03 AM, Jaroslaw Rafa via mailop wrote: >> Small senders do just fine getting into Google. > > Well, as I already mentioned, I moved my mailserver to my current hosting > right about 18 months ago. Had no problems - until now. So, the fact that > you have no problems currently

Re: [mailop] Gmail marking email from me as spam

2019-10-14 Thread Matt Palmer via mailop
On Mon, Oct 14, 2019 at 06:28:17PM +0300, Lena--- via mailop wrote: > If a mailbox provider wants to spam-filter by domain, they have to use > a list of such multiple-corporation domains (what is the proper term?). I believe the term-du-jour is "effective TLD", or "eTLD" for short. - Matt

Re: [mailop] Gmail marking email from me as spam

2019-10-14 Thread Jaroslaw Rafa via mailop
Dnia 14.10.2019 o godz. 10:42:42 Hal Murray via mailop pisze: > > Suppose you block an IP Address. How long should that block remain in place? > > If the source is a legitimate mail system with a phished account, you want to > unblock as soon as the spam stops. If the block is for a spam

Re: [mailop] Gmail marking email from me as spam

2019-10-14 Thread Jaroslaw Rafa via mailop
Dnia 14.10.2019 o godz. 13:23:30 Brandon Long via mailop pisze: > > We do keep those stats... if you're small enough, there's no signal there, > however. Send 12 messages in 30 days, you're a "low volume sender", and a > risk. You're a risk that those very few messages are spear phishing, 419,

Re: [mailop] Gmail marking email from me as spam

2019-10-14 Thread Jaroslaw Rafa via mailop
Dnia 14.10.2019 o godz. 10:22:08 Jay Hennigan via mailop pisze: > Way back at the beginning of this thread a week ago (but it seems > like a month), the originator stated that he was: > > * Sending email to addresses he found on websites. > > * Sending with an origin IP on OVH. > > * Sending

Re: [mailop] Gmail marking email from me as spam

2019-10-14 Thread Brandon Long via mailop
On Mon, Oct 14, 2019 at 4:29 AM Nick via mailop wrote: > On 2019-10-14 11:21 BST, Laura Atkins via mailop wrote: > > Yeah. I think there’s been a bit of a shift back to looking at your > > network space and surrounding IPs. > > Why? > > (I ask this in ignorance of the underlying technicalities,

Re: [mailop] Gmail marking email from me as spam

2019-10-14 Thread Steve Atkins via mailop
> On Oct 14, 2019, at 4:39 PM, Nick via mailop wrote: > > On 2019-10-14 15:47 BST, Steve Atkins via mailop wrote: >> On 14/10/2019 14:58, Nick via mailop wrote: >>> >>> My question remains unanswered. Why not treat each ip address on >>> its own merits? Is it technically infeasible, too

Re: [mailop] Gmail marking email from me as spam

2019-10-14 Thread Hal Murray via mailop
> Thank you, but your reply appears to be a reiteration of what is said > to be current practise. I don't see an answer to my question about > considering ip addresses individually. There are variations on that question. Suppose you get spam from an IP Address. Do you block the address, or

Re: [mailop] Gmail marking email from me as spam

2019-10-14 Thread Jay Hennigan via mailop
Way back at the beginning of this thread a week ago (but it seems like a month), the originator stated that he was: * Sending email to addresses he found on websites. * Sending with an origin IP on OVH. * Sending using the free domain eu.org. Do we really need all of this discussion as to

Re: [mailop] Gmail marking email from me as spam

2019-10-14 Thread Nick via mailop
On 2019-10-14 17:10 BST, John Levine via mailop wrote: > In article <20191014135812.gh2...@acrasis.net> you write: > >My question remains unanswered. Why not treat each ip address on its > >own merits? Is it technically infeasible, too expensive, less > >convenient, or what? > Given the

Re: [mailop] Gmail marking email from me as spam

2019-10-14 Thread Nick via mailop
On 2019-10-14 17:12 BST, John Levine via mailop wrote: > >It's unclear whether the support consideration applies to Google. > >There is no formal support who can be contacted, is there? (A result > >from my web search said "if you’re lucky, a Google volunteer may > >assist you further" on their

Re: [mailop] Gmail marking email from me as spam

2019-10-14 Thread Tom Ivar Helbekkmo via mailop
I just briefly skimmed this very long thread, looking at messages here and there. To the participants: "Darkness at noon", by Arthur Koestler, is a powerful and thought-provoking book, warmly recommended. -tih -- Most people who graduate with CS degrees don't understand the significance of

Re: [mailop] Gmail marking email from me as spam

2019-10-14 Thread Jay Hennigan via mailop
On 10/14/19 06:01, Nick via mailop wrote: Thank you, but your reply appears to be a reiteration of what is said to be current practise. I don't see an answer to my question about considering ip addresses individually. Snowshoe spammers are one good reason. Spammers with access to a block of

Re: [mailop] Gmail marking email from me as spam

2019-10-14 Thread John Levine via mailop
>It's unclear whether the support consideration applies to Google. >There is no formal support who can be contacted, is there? (A result >from my web search said "if you’re lucky, a Google volunteer may >assist you further" on their web forum). You're not their customer, or even their user.

Re: [mailop] Gmail marking email from me as spam

2019-10-14 Thread John Levine via mailop
In article <20191014135812.gh2...@acrasis.net> you write: >My question remains unanswered. Why not treat each ip address on its >own merits? Is it technically infeasible, too expensive, less >convenient, or what? Remember that our goal is to make our users happy, not necessarily to deliver your

Re: [mailop] Gmail marking email from me as spam

2019-10-14 Thread Vsevolod Stakhov via mailop
On 14/10/2019 16:28, Lena--- via mailop wrote: > Two examples: > > co.uk > bk.ru > > Looks similar, right? But there are multiple domains under .co.uk > belonging to multiple different corporaions, like under .com > bk.ru belongs to single corporation (it owns also mail.ru). > If a mailbox

Re: [mailop] Gmail marking email from me as spam

2019-10-14 Thread Nick via mailop
On 2019-10-14 15:47 BST, Steve Atkins via mailop wrote: > On 14/10/2019 14:58, Nick via mailop wrote: > > > > My question remains unanswered. Why not treat each ip address on > > its own merits? Is it technically infeasible, too expensive, less > > convenient, or what? > > There's more than

Re: [mailop] Gmail marking email from me as spam

2019-10-14 Thread Nick via mailop
On 2019-10-14 15:38 BST, Alexander Zeh via mailop wrote: > My best guess from a receivers perspective is: > If >99.9% of the traffic from a netblock were spam (let’s say from > half of the IPs in that block), I don’t want to accept any more > messages from the other IPs from the same netblock (and

Re: [mailop] Gmail marking email from me as spam

2019-10-14 Thread Lena--- via mailop
Two examples: co.uk bk.ru Looks similar, right? But there are multiple domains under .co.uk belonging to multiple different corporaions, like under .com bk.ru belongs to single corporation (it owns also mail.ru). If a mailbox provider wants to spam-filter by domain, they have to use a list of

Re: [mailop] Gmail marking email from me as spam

2019-10-14 Thread Steve Atkins via mailop
On 14/10/2019 14:58, Nick via mailop wrote: My question remains unanswered. Why not treat each ip address on its own merits? Is it technically infeasible, too expensive, less convenient, or what? There's more than one reason. Some are technical. But also expending the effort to track an

Re: [mailop] Gmail marking email from me as spam

2019-10-14 Thread Alexander Zeh via mailop
My best guess from a receivers perspective is: If >99.9% of the traffic from a netblock were spam (let’s say from half of the IPs in that block), I don’t want to accept any more messages from the other IPs from the same netblock (and risk unhappy recipients and - even worse - financial impact

Re: [mailop] Gmail marking email from me as spam

2019-10-14 Thread Graeme Fowler via mailop
On 14 Oct 2019, at 14:58, Nick via mailop wrote: >> If a large percentage of them have a signal which is 'poor' (FSVO >> 'poor') then the inference is that the whole block is poisonous, and >> you bin it (or put mail from it in the junk folder). > > It is not an inference. You agreed ("Does

Re: [mailop] Gmail marking email from me as spam

2019-10-14 Thread Nick via mailop
On 2019-10-14 14:41 BST, Graeme Fowler via mailop wrote: > On 14 Oct 2019, at 14:30, Nick via mailop wrote: > > If an ip address in the range is held by a legitimate mailer, you're > > saying the legitimate mailer will be evicted to make way for the > > spammer? Does that really happen? > > No;

Re: [mailop] Gmail marking email from me as spam

2019-10-14 Thread Graeme Fowler via mailop
On 14 Oct 2019, at 14:30, Nick via mailop wrote: > If an ip address in the range is held by a legitimate mailer, you're > saying the legitimate mailer will be evicted to make way for the > spammer? Does that really happen? No; but if you don't get any email from the 'legitimate' sender then

Re: [mailop] Gmail marking email from me as spam

2019-10-14 Thread Graeme Fowler via mailop
On 14 Oct 2019, at 14:30, Nick via mailop wrote: > If an ip address in the range is held by a legitimate mailer, you're > saying the legitimate mailer will be evicted to make way for the > spammer? Does that really happen? No; but if you don't get any email from the 'legitimate' sender then

Re: [mailop] Gmail marking email from me as spam

2019-10-14 Thread Nick via mailop
On 2019-10-14 14:14 BST, Laura Atkins via mailop wrote: > > > On 14 Oct 2019, at 14:01, Nick via mailop wrote: > > to be current practise. I don't see an answer to my question about > > considering ip addresses individually. > > > Because too many providers move bad actors around to avoid >

Re: [mailop] Gmail marking email from me as spam

2019-10-14 Thread Laura Atkins via mailop
> On 14 Oct 2019, at 14:01, Nick via mailop wrote: > > On 2019-10-14 13:32 BST, Steve Atkins via mailop wrote: >> Consider cloud providers, VPS providers, ESPs etc, and >> whether they enforce any sort of ToS forbidding abusive traffic >> from their customers. >> >> If a provider consistently

Re: [mailop] Gmail marking email from me as spam

2019-10-14 Thread Nick via mailop
On 2019-10-14 13:32 BST, Steve Atkins via mailop wrote: > Consider cloud providers, VPS providers, ESPs etc, and > whether they enforce any sort of ToS forbidding abusive traffic > from their customers. > > If a provider consistently allows abusive traffic from their > customers then they attract

Re: [mailop] Gmail marking email from me as spam

2019-10-14 Thread Steve Atkins via mailop
On 14/10/2019 12:33, Nick via mailop wrote: On 2019-10-14 11:21 BST, Laura Atkins via mailop wrote: Yeah. I think there’s been a bit of a shift back to looking at your network space and surrounding IPs. Why? (I ask this in ignorance of the underlying technicalities, and about ipv4 only.)

Re: [mailop] Gmail marking email from me as spam

2019-10-14 Thread Nick via mailop
On 2019-10-14 11:21 BST, Laura Atkins via mailop wrote: > Yeah. I think there’s been a bit of a shift back to looking at your > network space and surrounding IPs. Why? (I ask this in ignorance of the underlying technicalities, and about ipv4 only.) There are only about 3 billion public ipv4

Re: [mailop] Gmail marking email from me as spam

2019-10-14 Thread Jaroslaw Rafa via mailop
Dnia 14.10.2019 o godz. 11:17:11 Laura Atkins via mailop pisze: > > If the perception is based on a false understanding of how things work, > it’s nearly impossible to change that perception. Take this discussion. > There are some people who have the perception that Google is acting > unfairly

Re: [mailop] Gmail marking email from me as spam

2019-10-14 Thread Laura Atkins via mailop
> On 14 Oct 2019, at 10:50, Paul Smith via mailop wrote: > > On 14/10/2019 10:17, Laura Atkins via mailop wrote: >> >> When we closed down our colo and moved to a VPS I was slightly concerned >> about delivery of our mail, given the history of the last time we moved IPs. >> This time, we saw

Re: [mailop] Gmail marking email from me as spam

2019-10-14 Thread Jaroslaw Rafa via mailop
Dnia 14.10.2019 o godz. 10:17:55 Laura Atkins via mailop pisze: > > We’re a small legitimate sender that recently (in the last 18 months) > moved our mailserver from a SWIPed IP range on our own hardware to a > single IP sitting on a VPS. We've had zero problem getting mail delivered [...] >

Re: [mailop] Gmail marking email from me as spam

2019-10-14 Thread Paul Smith via mailop
On 14/10/2019 10:17, Laura Atkins via mailop wrote: When we closed down our colo and moved to a VPS I was slightly concerned about delivery of our mail, given the history of the last time we moved IPs. This time, we saw no interruption or problems with email. Small senders do just fine

Re: [mailop] Gmail marking email from me as spam

2019-10-14 Thread Laura Atkins via mailop
> On 14 Oct 2019, at 09:27, Vittorio Bertola via mailop > wrote: > >> Il 12 ottobre 2019 01:31 Brandon Long via mailop ha >> scritto: >> >> On Fri, Oct 11, 2019 at 2:09 AM Chris Woods via mailop < mailop@mailop.org >> > wrote: >> Has the prevailing method of

Re: [mailop] Gmail marking email from me as spam

2019-10-14 Thread Vittorio Bertola via mailop
Il 12 ottobre 2019 01:31 Brandon Long via mailop ha scritto: On Fri, Oct 11, 2019 at 2:09 AM Chris Woods via mailop < mailop@mailop.org> wrote: Has the prevailing method of deciding worthiness now

Re: [mailop] Gmail marking email from me as spam

2019-10-13 Thread Bron Gondwana via mailop
On Mon, Oct 14, 2019, at 11:33, Jaroslaw Rafa via mailop wrote: > It is an absurd assumption that I should be punished for misbehaviour of my > neighbours. I'm sure you wouldn't accept such rule in any other area of the > life; why would you accept it when it comes to e-mail? Objection your

Re: [mailop] Gmail marking email from me as spam

2019-10-13 Thread John Levine via mailop
In article <20191014003325.gb21...@rafa.eu.org> you write: >Dnia 10.10.2019 o godz. 09:55:58 Brielle via mailop pisze: >> >> Let me ask you something very straight forward. >> >> How much do you pay Google so that you can e-mail their users? > >Don't you see the absurdity of that question?

Re: [mailop] Gmail marking email from me as spam

2019-10-13 Thread Jaroslaw Rafa via mailop
Dnia 10.10.2019 o godz. 09:55:58 Brielle via mailop pisze: > > Let me ask you something very straight forward. > > How much do you pay Google so that you can e-mail their users? Don't you see the absurdity of that question? And everything else you wrote in your message? I already wrote about

Re: [mailop] Gmail marking email from me as spam

2019-10-11 Thread Carl Byington via mailop
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA512 On Thu, 2019-10-10 at 22:06 -0400, John Levine via mailop wrote: > In article <1570757713.1030.53.ca...@16bits.net> you write: > >Count me too as someone with a tiny server that Gmail automatically > >files in spam with apparently no reason. >

Re: [mailop] Gmail marking email from me as spam

2019-10-11 Thread Brandon Long via mailop
I don't think we explicitly age out these things, but we may have a limit on the number of entries on a user's automatic whitelist that's discards based on age. Also, as the automatic whitelist is generated from user content/interactions but isn't visible, it likely needs to be tied to the

Re: [mailop] Gmail marking email from me as spam

2019-10-11 Thread Brandon Long via mailop
On Fri, Oct 11, 2019 at 2:09 AM Chris Woods via mailop wrote: > After recently receiving yet more spam from standards-compliant spam > servers (valid SPF, DMARC and domains on mainstream TLDs and delivery > tolerating greylisting), this discussion got me thinking again. Some open > questions: >

Re: [mailop] Gmail marking email from me as spam

2019-10-11 Thread Luis E. Muñoz via mailop
On 11 Oct 2019, at 9:06, Chris Wedgwood via mailop wrote: It doesn't seem to be in a particularly bad neighborhood, either. if i'm guessing your IP right, my local test sees 7 "bad actors" in your /24 (2.73%) and 50 in your /16 (~0%) whilst that's not nearly as bad as many sources, it's

Re: [mailop] Gmail marking email from me as spam

2019-10-11 Thread Chris Wedgwood via mailop
> It doesn't seem to be in a particularly bad neighborhood, either. if i'm guessing your IP right, my local test sees 7 "bad actors" in your /24 (2.73%) and 50 in your /16 (~0%) whilst that's not nearly as bad as many sources, it's worse than most that send legitimate email

Re: [mailop] Gmail marking email from me as spam

2019-10-11 Thread John R Levine via mailop
Are they still fundamentally constrained by their choice of network provider, despite complying with every possible security and delivery behaviour to warrant and verify the content and sender of every email? Yes. Remember, nobody else cares as much about the mail you send as you do. Has the

Re: [mailop] Gmail marking email from me as spam

2019-10-11 Thread Steve Atkins via mailop
> On Oct 11, 2019, at 10:06 AM, Chris Woods via mailop > wrote: > > After recently receiving yet more spam from standards-compliant spam servers > (valid SPF, DMARC and domains on mainstream TLDs and delivery tolerating > greylisting), this discussion got me thinking again. Some open

Re: [mailop] Gmail marking email from me as spam

2019-10-11 Thread Chris Woods via mailop
After recently receiving yet more spam from standards-compliant spam servers (valid SPF, DMARC and domains on mainstream TLDs and delivery tolerating greylisting), this discussion got me thinking again. Some open questions: Imagine an operator wishes to spin up a new email server, for themself or

Re: [mailop] Gmail marking email from me as spam

2019-10-10 Thread John Levine via mailop
In article <1570757713.1030.53.ca...@16bits.net> you write: >Count me too as someone with a tiny server that Gmail automatically >files in spam with apparently no reason. >There are so few mails sent there (at most, 7 mails *per month*, often I took a look at the logs to see what mail comes to my

Re: [mailop] Gmail marking email from me as spam

2019-10-10 Thread Ángel via mailop
Count me too as someone with a tiny server that Gmail automatically files in spam with apparently no reason. There are so few mails sent there (at most, 7 mails *per month*, often none at all) and seeming so futile, I didn't even dedicate time to that. It's slightly annoying, though. There is

Re: [mailop] Gmail marking email from me as spam

2019-10-10 Thread Luis E. Muñoz via mailop
On 10 Oct 2019, at 5:43, Jaroslaw Rafa via mailop wrote: So you should ensure that you *can* be contacted by pretty much everyone. Of course, it's not an invitation to send you actual spam; but distrusting some senders just because they *can* *potentially* *in your opinion* be spammers,

Re: [mailop] Gmail marking email from me as spam

2019-10-10 Thread John R Levine via mailop
It's a basic mistake to operate on whole netblocks and not individual senders. i somewhat disagree There are definitely networks that are so dirty that it's not worth accepting their mail. OVH hovers on the bad side of that line. If I were more interested in getting my mail to work than

Re: [mailop] Gmail marking email from me as spam

2019-10-10 Thread Chris Wedgwood via mailop
> It's a basic mistake to operate on whole netblocks and not > individual senders. i somewhat disagree i tested this a while ago and just did a quick test again if i were to block a /24 containing a single bad actor, this usually won't block any legitimate mail and usually will block other spam

Re: [mailop] Gmail marking email from me as spam

2019-10-10 Thread Brielle via mailop
On 10/10/2019 6:10 AM, Jaroslaw Rafa via mailop wrote: It's a basic mistake to operate on whole netblocks and not individual senders. Let me ask you something very straight forward. How much do you pay Google so that you can e-mail their users? I know you don't have a service contract or

Re: [mailop] Gmail marking email from me as spam

2019-10-10 Thread Paul Smith via mailop
On 10/10/2019 13:43, Jaroslaw Rafa wrote: However, if you announce your e-mail address publicly, by eg. putting it on a website as your contact address, or participating in a mailing list like this one using this address, you are actually inviting people to contact you at this address Indeed.

Re: [mailop] Gmail marking email from me as spam

2019-10-10 Thread Paul Smith via mailop
On 10/10/2019 13:10, Jaroslaw Rafa via mailop wrote: It's a basic mistake to operate on whole netblocks and not individual senders. It's like you would ban all citizens of a particular country X from coming to another country Y, because a lot of people from country X are terrorists. If 99.9%

Re: [mailop] Gmail marking email from me as spam

2019-10-10 Thread Jaroslaw Rafa via mailop
Dnia 10.10.2019 o godz. 09:42:34 Paul Smith via mailop pisze: > > Nowadays, you'd be daft to accept mail from anywhere unless the > sender 'proves' to be nasty. Generally, you'll find it more likely > to work the other way. If you're an unknown sender, you're likely to > be filtered until you're

Re: [mailop] Gmail marking email from me as spam

2019-10-10 Thread Jaroslaw Rafa via mailop
Dnia 9.10.2019 o godz. 16:49:46 John R Levine via mailop pisze: > > Right. I didn't get the message you were responding to, so I looked > in the logs and see the IP is in the middle of a block at OVH that > gushes spam so it went straight to the spam trap. The logs say that > it's the only

Re: [mailop] Gmail marking email from me as spam

2019-10-10 Thread Paul Smith via mailop
On 09/10/2019 20:36, Jaroslaw Rafa via mailop wrote: Dnia 9.10.2019 o godz. 13:23:16 John Levine via mailop pisze: If you're not willing to pay 10€ for a real domain name, why should anyone put any effort into accepting your mail? Just because you should by default accept mail from everyone

Re: [mailop] Gmail marking email from me as spam

2019-10-09 Thread John R Levine via mailop
Just because you should by default accept mail from everyone *unless* the sender proved to be nasty/harmful/mailicious etc.? what if the look quite plausibly harmful? Right. I didn't get the message you were responding to, so I looked in the logs and see the IP is in the middle of a block

Re: [mailop] Gmail marking email from me as spam

2019-10-09 Thread Chris Wedgwood via mailop
> Just because you should by default accept mail from everyone > *unless* the sender proved to be nasty/harmful/mailicious etc.? what if the look quite plausibly harmful? > Otherwise you are breaking the very purpose of e-mail. surely the purpose depends on the user? different people will have

Re: [mailop] Gmail marking email from me as spam

2019-10-09 Thread Jaroslaw Rafa via mailop
Dnia 9.10.2019 o godz. 13:23:16 John Levine via mailop pisze: > If you're not willing to pay 10€ for a real domain name, why should anyone > put any effort into accepting your mail? Just because you should by default accept mail from everyone *unless* the sender proved to be

Re: [mailop] Gmail marking email from me as spam

2019-10-09 Thread John Levine via mailop
In article <20191008101859.ga12...@rafa.eu.org> you write: >Dnia 8.10.2019 o godz. 13:42:32 Matt Palmer via mailop pisze: >> >> The other commonality is that AWS EC2 is at least as much of a pit of spam >> and abuse as OVH is, and I'm not surprised that you don't get treated better >> by GMail

Re: [mailop] Gmail marking email from me as spam

2019-10-08 Thread Brandon Long via mailop
On Tue, Oct 8, 2019 at 12:51 AM Alessandro Vesely via mailop < mailop@mailop.org> wrote: > On Mon 07/Oct/2019 23:38:23 +0200 Brandon Long via mailop wrote: > > Also, it's hard to optimize for the servers that send us one message a > day. > > > If it sends a message a day, it cannot be spam (by

Re: [mailop] Gmail marking email from me as spam

2019-10-08 Thread Michael Rathbun via mailop
On Tue, 08 Oct 2019 10:16:48 -0400, Bill Cole via mailop wrote: >"Bulk" isn't about the delivery path, it is about how mail is composed >and targeted. And, properly understood, the 'B' in "UBE" is not "bulk", it is "broadcast". So, if more than one person received a substantially identical

Re: [mailop] Gmail marking email from me as spam

2019-10-08 Thread Bill Cole via mailop
On 8 Oct 2019, at 3:48, Alessandro Vesely via mailop wrote: On Mon 07/Oct/2019 23:38:23 +0200 Brandon Long via mailop wrote: Also, it's hard to optimize for the servers that send us one message a day. If it sends a message a day, it cannot be spam (by the B in UBE). This isn't true. Are

Re: [mailop] Gmail marking email from me as spam

2019-10-08 Thread Jaroslaw Rafa via mailop
Dnia 8.10.2019 o godz. 13:42:32 Matt Palmer via mailop pisze: > > The other commonality is that AWS EC2 is at least as much of a pit of spam > and abuse as OVH is, and I'm not surprised that you don't get treated better > by GMail when you start sending them mail from a rando EC2 address. As I

Re: [mailop] Gmail marking email from me as spam

2019-10-08 Thread Alessandro Vesely via mailop
On Mon 07/Oct/2019 23:38:23 +0200 Brandon Long via mailop wrote: > Also, it's hard to optimize for the servers that send us one message a day. If it sends a message a day, it cannot be spam (by the B in UBE).   > I've argued before that we should have better handling for the smallest > servers

Re: [mailop] Gmail marking email from me as spam

2019-10-07 Thread Matt Palmer via mailop
On Tue, Oct 08, 2019 at 02:47:02AM +0200, Jaroslaw Rafa via mailop wrote: > BTW. I also sometimes (quite rarely) send messages from my server using two > other sender addresses corresponding to two small organizations I belong to. > They are in different domains. I also tried to send mail from

Re: [mailop] Gmail marking email from me as spam

2019-10-07 Thread Jaroslaw Rafa via mailop
Dnia 7.10.2019 o godz. 17:17:32 Brandon Long via mailop pisze: > > If content analysis was sufficient, why would anyone bother with all of the > other signals? Mostly to save time and computing power maybe? With thousands of messages sent from a particular IP, content analysis of each one of

Re: [mailop] Gmail marking email from me as spam

2019-10-07 Thread Brandon Long via mailop
On Mon, Oct 7, 2019 at 4:31 PM Jaroslaw Rafa wrote: > Dnia 7.10.2019 o godz. 16:16:56 Brandon Long pisze: > > > > Except it's usually trivial for folks within a netblock to move their > > traffic from one IP > > to another. > > So isn't it better for such low-volume senders as me to rely on

Re: [mailop] Gmail marking email from me as spam

2019-10-07 Thread Bill Cole via mailop
On 7 Oct 2019, at 19:01, Brandon Long via mailop wrote: > Of course, > you can't run a full A-level simulation > at that point, since then you couldn't erase it after or reset it, and over > time it would drift from what the original > wants. That is definitely only a Google problem..;. --

Re: [mailop] Gmail marking email from me as spam

2019-10-07 Thread Jaroslaw Rafa via mailop
Dnia 7.10.2019 o godz. 16:16:56 Brandon Long pisze: > > Except it's usually trivial for folks within a netblock to move their > traffic from one IP > to another. So isn't it better for such low-volume senders as me to rely on content analysis only rather than including netblock reputation into

Re: [mailop] Gmail marking email from me as spam

2019-10-07 Thread Jaroslaw Rafa via mailop
Dnia 8.10.2019 o godz. 00:48:25 Jaroslaw Rafa via mailop pisze: > Dnia 7.10.2019 o godz. 15:14:34 Brandon Long via mailop pisze: > > Use a third party relay that has a better reputation and volume? > > That was the first thing that came to my mind as a workaround. But just > tried it and it

Re: [mailop] Gmail marking email from me as spam

2019-10-07 Thread Brandon Long via mailop
On Mon, Oct 7, 2019 at 4:07 PM Jaroslaw Rafa wrote: > Dnia 7.10.2019 o godz. 16:01:26 Brandon Long pisze: > > > > What value does the reputation calculation have of an IP that's sent 20 > > messages to us in the last 30 days? > > Because the volume of messages is so low, I guess you should

Re: [mailop] Gmail marking email from me as spam

2019-10-07 Thread Brandon Long via mailop
On Mon, Oct 7, 2019 at 3:58 PM John Gateley via mailop wrote: > > > On 10/7/19 4:38 PM, Brandon Long via mailop wrote: > > > > Also, it's hard to optimize for the servers that send us one message a > day. I've argued before that we should > have better handling for the smallest servers

Re: [mailop] Gmail marking email from me as spam

2019-10-07 Thread Jaroslaw Rafa via mailop
Dnia 7.10.2019 o godz. 16:01:26 Brandon Long pisze: > > What value does the reputation calculation have of an IP that's sent 20 > messages to us in the last 30 days? Because the volume of messages is so low, I guess you should assume that they are OK unless it is *proven* that they are spam

Re: [mailop] Gmail marking email from me as spam

2019-10-07 Thread Brandon Long via mailop
On Mon, Oct 7, 2019 at 3:30 PM Jaroslaw Rafa wrote: > Dnia 7.10.2019 o godz. 15:14:34 Brandon Long via mailop pisze: > > Because a handful of users marking them as not-spam isn't enough to > overcome > > the netblock signal. > > Well, I think that a company that has access to such amount of

Re: [mailop] Gmail marking email from me as spam

2019-10-07 Thread John Gateley via mailop
On 10/7/19 4:38 PM, Brandon Long via mailop wrote: Also, it's hard to optimize for the servers that send us one message a day.  I've argued before that we should have better handling for the smallest servers (whitelist the first 5 messages/day for low volume IPs, for example), but the

Re: [mailop] Gmail marking email from me as spam

2019-10-07 Thread Jaroslaw Rafa via mailop
Dnia 7.10.2019 o godz. 15:14:34 Brandon Long via mailop pisze: > Use a third party relay that has a better reputation and volume? That was the first thing that came to my mind as a workaround. But just tried it and it doesn't work. Sent via an intermediate server in AWS cloud. The mail is going

Re: [mailop] Gmail marking email from me as spam

2019-10-07 Thread Jaroslaw Rafa via mailop
Dnia 7.10.2019 o godz. 15:14:34 Brandon Long via mailop pisze: > Because a handful of users marking them as not-spam isn't enough to overcome > the netblock signal. Well, I think that a company that has access to such amount of computing power as Google has, wouldn't have a problem to calculate

Re: [mailop] Gmail marking email from me as spam

2019-10-07 Thread Luis E. Muñoz via mailop
On 7 Oct 2019, at 13:35, Jaroslaw Rafa via mailop wrote: However, from my experience, it isn't the case. Users almost never look into their spam folder unless someone tells them to do so. They don't even realize that there might be false positives - they simply think that there can't be

Re: [mailop] Gmail marking email from me as spam

2019-10-07 Thread Brandon Long via mailop
On Mon, Oct 7, 2019 at 2:57 PM Jaroslaw Rafa wrote: > Dnia 7.10.2019 o godz. 14:38:23 Brandon Long via mailop pisze: > > > > The way Google finds out that a sender is valid is people marking it > > not-spam. We can > > trust (mostly, sorta, kinda) our receivers more than we can trust the > >

Re: [mailop] Gmail marking email from me as spam

2019-10-07 Thread Jaroslaw Rafa via mailop
Dnia 7.10.2019 o godz. 14:38:23 Brandon Long via mailop pisze: > > The way Google finds out that a sender is valid is people marking it > not-spam. We can > trust (mostly, sorta, kinda) our receivers more than we can trust the > senders. Plus, that's > our definition of spam, it's what our

Re: [mailop] Gmail marking email from me as spam

2019-10-07 Thread Brandon Long via mailop
On Mon, Oct 7, 2019 at 9:50 AM Jaroslaw Rafa via mailop wrote: > Dnia 7.10.2019 o godz. 10:16:10 Brielle via mailop pisze: > > > > You do realize, some of us have been through lawsuits before because > > people like you thought that your supposed 'right' to send e-mail > > trumped our rights to

Re: [mailop] Gmail marking email from me as spam

2019-10-07 Thread Brandon Long via mailop
On Mon, Oct 7, 2019 at 1:37 PM Jaroslaw Rafa via mailop wrote: > Dnia 7.10.2019 o godz. 20:09:28 Andy Smith via mailop pisze: > > > > Yes, it is extremely frustrating, but gmail's users seem prepared to > > have some amount of false positives. > > It would be great if it would be the case. I

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