Re: [mailop] So, about this iOS10 unsubscribe feature...

2017-06-02 Thread frnkblk 
Exactly. =)

This week was calm -- no alerts regarding our server queues about this issue.  
Perhaps it was just one spammer that had a non-working SMTP server.

Frank

-Original Message-
From: mailop [mailto:mailop-boun...@mailop.org] On Behalf Of Bill Cole
Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2017 7:15 PM
To: mailop@mailop.org
Subject: Re: [mailop] So, about this iOS10 unsubscribe feature...

On 22 May 2017, at 21:59, frnk...@iname.com wrote:

> Here are the domains that are currently in our server queues:
>
>   e.highwayhealth.org
>
>   e.everydown.org
>
>   e.thrivehealth.org
>
>   e.pro-associates.org
>
>   e.educationforourfuture.org
>
>   e.booktemplate.org
>
>   e.amicon.org
>
>   e.gatherit.org
>
> Note that none of these have an MX record.

Which is not itself a problem, since they all have A records. However, 
they all resolve to the same IP, 107.158.16.99, which does not answer on 
port 25.

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Re: [mailop] So, about this iOS10 unsubscribe feature...

2017-05-25 Thread Bill Cole 

On 22 May 2017, at 21:59, frnk...@iname.com wrote:


Here are the domains that are currently in our server queues:

  e.highwayhealth.org

  e.everydown.org

  e.thrivehealth.org

  e.pro-associates.org

  e.educationforourfuture.org

  e.booktemplate.org

  e.amicon.org

  e.gatherit.org

Note that none of these have an MX record.


Which is not itself a problem, since they all have A records. However, 
they all resolve to the same IP, 107.158.16.99, which does not answer on 
port 25.


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Re: [mailop] So, about this iOS10 unsubscribe feature...

2017-05-23 Thread steve 

would break basic security on a fair few RESTful APIs too!


On 24/05/17 16:36, Bill Cole wrote:

On 23 May 2017, at 22:03, John Levine wrote:


I would expect that if it's invalid for
POST, it's likely invalid for GET, too.


That is not a reasonable expectation.


Or rather, it's a reasonable 90% expectation and maybe even 99% but 
there is no assurance that a URL which is valid for a GET request will 
behave in the same way in response to a POST request.


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--
Steve Holdoway BSc(Hons) MIITP
https://www.greengecko.co.nz/
Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/steveholdoway
Skype: sholdowa


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Re: [mailop] So, about this iOS10 unsubscribe feature...

2017-05-23 Thread Suresh Ramasubramanian 
Something that reproduces this issue would be great.  Saves us all playing the 
guessing game.

--srs

> On 24-May-2017, at 10:06 AM, Bill Cole 
>  wrote:
> 
> That is not a reasonable expectation.
> 
> 
> Or rather, it's a reasonable 90% expectation and maybe even 99% but there is 
> no assurance that a URL which is valid for a GET request will behave in the 
> same way in response to a POST request.

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Re: [mailop] So, about this iOS10 unsubscribe feature...

2017-05-23 Thread Bill Cole 

On 23 May 2017, at 22:03, John Levine wrote:


I would expect that if it's invalid for
POST, it's likely invalid for GET, too.


That is not a reasonable expectation.


Or rather, it's a reasonable 90% expectation and maybe even 99% but 
there is no assurance that a URL which is valid for a GET request will 
behave in the same way in response to a POST request.


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Re: [mailop] So, about this iOS10 unsubscribe feature...

2017-05-23 Thread John Levine 
In article <6898.1495560...@turing-police.cc.vt.edu> you write:
>-=-=-=-=-=-
>-=-=-=-=-=-
>
>On Tue, 23 May 2017 09:29:34 -0400, Joey Rutledge said:
>> Do you guys have any samples of the invalid Unsubscribe headers?  There is a
>> newish spec (RFC8058; https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8058) that I’ve seen
>> floating around and wondering if those are the headers screwing things up.

Nope.  The one-click unsub in 8058 uses the same URL from the same
List-Unsubscribe header as always.  The only difference is that the
client does a POST rather than GET to indicate that it's one-click.
But since it's the same URL, I would expect that if it's invalid for
POST, it's likely invalid for GET, too.

R's,
John

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Re: [mailop] So, about this iOS10 unsubscribe feature...

2017-05-23 Thread valdis . kletnieks 
On Tue, 23 May 2017 09:29:34 -0400, Joey Rutledge said:
> Do you guys have any samples of the invalid Unsubscribe headers?  There is a
> newish spec (RFC8058; https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8058) that I’ve seen
> floating around and wondering if those are the headers screwing things up.

That probably isn't it - 8058 adds a new "one-click' option to the very old
List-Unsubscribe: (how old? RFC2369 is from last century).  Or more properly,
it's a method to tag the URI as being a one-click auto-ambush link, and that
gratuitously following it in the MTA may piss the user off.

For it to add to your queues, somebody would need to be using the one-click
unsub with a mailto: URI, *and* your local e-mail purgatory software needs
to (a) chase the URI as part of anti-spam/malware protection and (b) do so
even if it's a mailto: rather than http: or ftp: or gopher: or so on.

Having said that, I've seen lots more questionable design decisions



pgpvrkeAxU5L5.pgp
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Re: [mailop] So, about this iOS10 unsubscribe feature...

2017-05-23 Thread Joey Rutledge 
Do you guys have any samples of the invalid Unsubscribe headers?  There is a 
newish spec (RFC8058; https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8058 
) that I’ve seen floating around and 
wondering if those are the headers screwing things up.  Not saying it is, but 
I’m recently familiar with the modification of the header as it’s something 
we’ve recently implemented.

Joey Rutledge

> On May 22, 2017, at 10:40 PM, Dave Warren  wrote:
> 
> On Mon, May 22, 2017, at 18:59, frnk...@iname.com  
> wrote:
>> Just starting last week we started seeing our outbound queues fill up with 
>> undeliverable client messages generated because of this one-click 
>> unsubscribe feature.  Since this Apple feature has been in place for over 
>> six months, I’m surprised we haven’t seen this until now.
> 
> Is the problem iOS 10 doing something wrong, or is it just some bulk mail 
> sender has started sending mail with invalid Unsubscribe information and 
> users that try to unsubscribe are generating queue noise?
> 
> I don't use the feature much myself on a day to day basis, but I did monkey 
> with it a bit when it first came out and it seems to work as described.
> 
> 
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Re: [mailop] So, about this iOS10 unsubscribe feature...

2017-05-23 Thread frnkblk 
It appears to be the second -- some bulk mail sender has started sending mail 
with invalid Unsubscribe information and users that try to unsubscribe are 
generating queue noise.

 

Frank

 

From: mailop [mailto:mailop-boun...@mailop.org] On Behalf Of Dave Warren
Sent: Monday, May 22, 2017 9:41 PM
To: mailop@mailop.org
Subject: Re: [mailop] So, about this iOS10 unsubscribe feature...

 

On Mon, May 22, 2017, at 18:59, frnk...@iname.com <mailto:frnk...@iname.com>  
wrote:

Just starting last week we started seeing our outbound queues fill up with 
undeliverable client messages generated because of this one-click unsubscribe 
feature.  Since this Apple feature has been in place for over six months, I’m 
surprised we haven’t seen this until now.

 

Is the problem iOS 10 doing something wrong, or is it just some bulk mail 
sender has started sending mail with invalid Unsubscribe information and users 
that try to unsubscribe are generating queue noise?

 

I don't use the feature much myself on a day to day basis, but I did monkey 
with it a bit when it first came out and it seems to work as described.

 

 

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Re: [mailop] So, about this iOS10 unsubscribe feature...

2017-05-22 Thread Dave Warren 
On Mon, May 22, 2017, at 18:59, frnk...@iname.com wrote:
> Just starting last week we started seeing our outbound queues fill up
> with undeliverable client messages generated because of this one-click
> unsubscribe feature.  Since this Apple feature has been in place for
> over six months, I’m surprised we haven’t seen this until now.
Is the problem iOS 10 doing something wrong, or is it just some
bulk mail sender has started sending mail with invalid
Unsubscribe information and users that try to unsubscribe are
generating queue noise?
I don't use the feature much myself on a day to day basis, but I did
monkey with it a bit when it first came out and it seems to work as
described.

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Re: [mailop] So, about this iOS10 unsubscribe feature...

2017-05-22 Thread frnkblk 
Just starting last week we started seeing our outbound queues fill up with 
undeliverable client messages generated because of this one-click unsubscribe 
feature.  Since this Apple feature has been in place for over six months, I’m 
surprised we haven’t seen this until now.

 

Here are the domains that are currently in our server queues:

  e.highwayhealth.org

  e.everydown.org

  e.thrivehealth.org

  e.pro-associates.org

  e.educationforourfuture.org

  e.booktemplate.org

  e.amicon.org

  e.gatherit.org

Note that none of these have an MX record.

 

How are others dealing with this? Just purging their outbound queues?

 

Frank

 

From: mailop [mailto:mailop-boun...@mailop.org] On Behalf Of Josh Nason
Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2016 3:27 PM
To: mailop 
Subject: [mailop] So, about this iOS10 unsubscribe feature...

 

Hi all -- I'm sure you've heard about the new iOS10 feature that highlights an 
unsubscribe at the top of bulk emails. I assumed it was only going to be active 
if a sender had list unsubscribe turned on, but was mistaken. 

 

However, the prompt I get saying 'Mail will send a message from (my email) to 
unsubscribe from this mailing list.'

 

Anyone know where that message is going to be sent to? I assume the reply 
address, but am unclear and can't seem to find documentation on it.


 

-- 

     
   
  

Josh Nason / Email Reputation Manager  
     
 +1 603-289-1244 | @JoshNason 
 

Email is hot! This is why 

  it's the original form of social media.

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Re: [mailop] So, about this iOS10 unsubscribe feature...

2016-09-16 Thread John R Levine 

On Fri, 16 Sep 2016, valdis.kletni...@vt.edu wrote:

On 16 Sep 2016 18:22:33 -, "John Levine" said:


There are some issues with helpful spam filters that fetch the URLs in
list-unsubscribe headers to see if they lead somewhere malicious, but
they're not all that hard to deal with.


For those who don't know what John is referring to:



Subject: I-D Action: draft-levine-herkula-oneclick-03.txt


It's up to -05, now with more expository goodness for the benefit of 
people who don't live in a world where "deliverability" is an adjective.


You can find it here:


https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-levine-herkula-oneclick/


Regards,
John Levine, jo...@taugh.com, Taughannock Networks, Trumansburg NY
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly

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Re: [mailop] So, about this iOS10 unsubscribe feature...

2016-09-16 Thread John Levine 
>> 2369 The Use of URLs as Meta-Syntax for Core Mail List Commands and their
>>  Transport through Message Header Fields. [snip]
>
>+1.  Every mailing list run by everyone everywhere should support
>RFC 2369, RFC 2919, and RFC 2142 standards.  It's trivially easy and
>there are precisely zero valid excuses for not doing it.

There are some issues with helpful spam filters that fetch the URLs in
list-unsubscribe headers to see if they lead somewhere malicious, but
they're not all that hard to deal with.

R's,
John

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Re: [mailop] So, about this iOS10 unsubscribe feature...

2016-09-15 Thread Rolf E. Sonneveld 



On 15-09-16 22:55, valdis.kletni...@vt.edu wrote:

On Thu, 15 Sep 2016 16:47:15 -0400, Josh Nason said:


What if a sender doesn't have list-unsubscribe enabled?

Then they should get with the program. The RFC is from last century.


you mean: last millenium? ;-)

/rolf


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Re: [mailop] So, about this iOS10 unsubscribe feature...

2016-09-15 Thread Al Iverson 
Then you don't see the unsubscribe option.


--
Al Iverson
www.aliverson.com
(312)725-0130

On Thu, Sep 15, 2016 at 4:47 PM, Josh Nason  wrote:

> What if a sender doesn't have list-unsubscribe enabled?
>
> On Thu, Sep 15, 2016 at 4:36 PM, Shaun  wrote:
>
>> It will go to the address defined in the List-Unsubscribe header of the
>> original message. Screenshot (not mine) of a sample message:
>> 
>>
>> -s
>>
>> On Thu, 15 Sep 2016 16:27:15 -0400
>> Josh Nason  wrote:
>>
>> > Hi all -- I'm sure you've heard about the new iOS10 feature that
>> highlights
>> > an unsubscribe at the top of bulk emails. I assumed it was only going
>> to be
>> > active if a sender had list unsubscribe turned on, but was mistaken.
>> >
>> > However, the prompt I get saying 'Mail will send a message from (my
>> email)
>> > to unsubscribe from this mailing list.'
>> >
>> > Anyone know where that message is going to be sent to? I assume the
>> reply
>> > address, but am unclear and can't seem to find documentation on it.
>> >
>> > --
>> >
>> > [image: Dyn logo, Dyn.com] 
>> > [image: Dyn
>> facebook
>> > account] [im
>> age:
>> > Dyn LinkedIn account] 
>> >
>> > Josh Nason / Email Reputation Manager
>> >  +1 603-289-1244 | @JoshNason 
>> >
>> > Email is hot! This is why
>> > > -form-social-media-josh-nason?trk=prof-post>
>> > it's the original form of social media.
>>
>>
>
>
> --
>
> [image: Dyn logo, Dyn.com] 
> [image: Dyn
> facebook account] 
> [image:
> Dyn LinkedIn account] 
>
> Josh Nason / Email Reputation Manager
>  +1 603-289-1244 | @JoshNason 
>
> Email is hot! This is why
> 
> it's the original form of social media.
>
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Re: [mailop] So, about this iOS10 unsubscribe feature...

2016-09-15 Thread Josh Nason 
Actually, never mind. I was getting my terminology mixed up. I got it.

Thanks, Shaun!

On Thu, Sep 15, 2016 at 4:47 PM, Josh Nason  wrote:

> What if a sender doesn't have list-unsubscribe enabled?
>
> On Thu, Sep 15, 2016 at 4:36 PM, Shaun  wrote:
>
>> It will go to the address defined in the List-Unsubscribe header of the
>> original message. Screenshot (not mine) of a sample message:
>> 
>>
>> -s
>>
>> On Thu, 15 Sep 2016 16:27:15 -0400
>> Josh Nason  wrote:
>>
>> > Hi all -- I'm sure you've heard about the new iOS10 feature that
>> highlights
>> > an unsubscribe at the top of bulk emails. I assumed it was only going
>> to be
>> > active if a sender had list unsubscribe turned on, but was mistaken.
>> >
>> > However, the prompt I get saying 'Mail will send a message from (my
>> email)
>> > to unsubscribe from this mailing list.'
>> >
>> > Anyone know where that message is going to be sent to? I assume the
>> reply
>> > address, but am unclear and can't seem to find documentation on it.
>> >
>> > --
>> >
>> > [image: Dyn logo, Dyn.com] 
>> > [image: Dyn
>> facebook
>> > account] [im
>> age:
>> > Dyn LinkedIn account] 
>> >
>> > Josh Nason / Email Reputation Manager
>> >  +1 603-289-1244 | @JoshNason 
>> >
>> > Email is hot! This is why
>> > > -form-social-media-josh-nason?trk=prof-post>
>> > it's the original form of social media.
>>
>>
>
>
> --
>
> [image: Dyn logo, Dyn.com] 
> [image: Dyn
> facebook account] 
> [image:
> Dyn LinkedIn account] 
>
> Josh Nason / Email Reputation Manager
>  +1 603-289-1244 | @JoshNason 
>
> Email is hot! This is why
> 
> it's the original form of social media.
>



-- 

[image: Dyn logo, Dyn.com] 
[image: Dyn facebook
account] [image:
Dyn LinkedIn account] 

Josh Nason / Email Reputation Manager
 +1 603-289-1244 | @JoshNason 

Email is hot! This is why

it's the original form of social media.
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Re: [mailop] So, about this iOS10 unsubscribe feature...

2016-09-15 Thread Josh Nason 
What if a sender doesn't have list-unsubscribe enabled?

On Thu, Sep 15, 2016 at 4:36 PM, Shaun  wrote:

> It will go to the address defined in the List-Unsubscribe header of the
> original message. Screenshot (not mine) of a sample message:
> 
>
> -s
>
> On Thu, 15 Sep 2016 16:27:15 -0400
> Josh Nason  wrote:
>
> > Hi all -- I'm sure you've heard about the new iOS10 feature that
> highlights
> > an unsubscribe at the top of bulk emails. I assumed it was only going to
> be
> > active if a sender had list unsubscribe turned on, but was mistaken.
> >
> > However, the prompt I get saying 'Mail will send a message from (my
> email)
> > to unsubscribe from this mailing list.'
> >
> > Anyone know where that message is going to be sent to? I assume the reply
> > address, but am unclear and can't seem to find documentation on it.
> >
> > --
> >
> > [image: Dyn logo, Dyn.com] 
> > [image: Dyn
> facebook
> > account] [image:
> > Dyn LinkedIn account] 
> >
> > Josh Nason / Email Reputation Manager
> >  +1 603-289-1244 | @JoshNason 
> >
> > Email is hot! This is why
> >  original-form-social-media-josh-nason?trk=prof-post>
> > it's the original form of social media.
>
>


-- 

[image: Dyn logo, Dyn.com] 
[image: Dyn facebook
account] [image:
Dyn LinkedIn account] 

Josh Nason / Email Reputation Manager
 +1 603-289-1244 | @JoshNason 

Email is hot! This is why

it's the original form of social media.
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Re: [mailop] So, about this iOS10 unsubscribe feature...

2016-09-15 Thread Al Iverson 
Yo Josh,

It goes back to the email address specified in the list-unsubscribe header.

I've blogged about how this works in iOS 10 here:
http://www.spamresource.com/2016/09/list-unsubscribe-in-apples-ios-10.html

Hope that helps.

Regards,
Al Iverson


--
Al Iverson
www.aliverson.com
(312)725-0130

On Thu, Sep 15, 2016 at 4:27 PM, Josh Nason  wrote:

> Hi all -- I'm sure you've heard about the new iOS10 feature that
> highlights an unsubscribe at the top of bulk emails. I assumed it was only
> going to be active if a sender had list unsubscribe turned on, but was
> mistaken.
>
> However, the prompt I get saying 'Mail will send a message from (my email)
> to unsubscribe from this mailing list.'
>
> Anyone know where that message is going to be sent to? I assume the reply
> address, but am unclear and can't seem to find documentation on it.
>
> --
>
> [image: Dyn logo, Dyn.com] 
> [image: Dyn
> facebook account] 
> [image:
> Dyn LinkedIn account] 
>
> Josh Nason / Email Reputation Manager
>  +1 603-289-1244 | @JoshNason 
>
> Email is hot! This is why
> 
> it's the original form of social media.
>
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Re: [mailop] So, about this iOS10 unsubscribe feature...

2016-09-15 Thread Shaun 
It will go to the address defined in the List-Unsubscribe header of the
original message. Screenshot (not mine) of a sample message:


-s

On Thu, 15 Sep 2016 16:27:15 -0400
Josh Nason  wrote:

> Hi all -- I'm sure you've heard about the new iOS10 feature that highlights
> an unsubscribe at the top of bulk emails. I assumed it was only going to be
> active if a sender had list unsubscribe turned on, but was mistaken.
> 
> However, the prompt I get saying 'Mail will send a message from (my email)
> to unsubscribe from this mailing list.'
> 
> Anyone know where that message is going to be sent to? I assume the reply
> address, but am unclear and can't seem to find documentation on it.
> 
> -- 
> 
> [image: Dyn logo, Dyn.com] 
> [image: Dyn facebook
> account] [image:
> Dyn LinkedIn account] 
> 
> Josh Nason / Email Reputation Manager
>  +1 603-289-1244 | @JoshNason 
> 
> Email is hot! This is why
> 
> it's the original form of social media.


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