VIRGIL: source of quotation please
Re: Sic mihi contingat vivere sicque mori. Many thanks to all of you for your various suggestions -- that my quotation is almost certainly post-classical, perhaps even from a Renaissance source, and possibly to be found in Ariosto's own Latin verse, some of which is written in elegiacs. I haven't access at present to a library that would enable me to follow up that last suggestion, but I have passed it on to Jason Scott-Warren, the author of the article I was reading, and he also is going to try to find the source of the quotation. If he or I ever manage to find it, I'll let all know. Inn the mean time I now know a lot more than I did about sicque and the possible reasons for its avoidance by classical writers! Simon Cauchi, Freelance Editor and Indexer Hamilton, New Zealand [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: source of quotation please
There is much useful discussion in L.P. Wilkinson's Golden Latin Artistry (Cambridge 1963); see esp. 'Part I: Sounds', which has a close reading of various sound effects in the first Georgic, with a focus on animal noises. Philip Thibodeau Brown University Is any one aware of any analytical treatment of Virgil's (or any other Roman poet's) use of onomatopoeia generally, or, especially, animal noises? I should be most grateful for any leads to periodical literature or longer book-studies / chapters, etc.. (Rev.) M. A. Paulinus Greenwood OSB Benedictine Abbey of St Augustine of Canterbury RAMSGATE Kent CT11 9PA England --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: source of quotation please
Sicque seems to occur in Renaissance Latin poetry. One example I found is in Scipione Capece's didactic poem De principiis rerum (Venetiis: Apud Paulum Manutium, 1546) 2,499-500 (line numbers from my edition in progress): per longa est uero obseruatum saecula sicque res habet omnino ... This is what Manutius printed but I suspect that seque is right here. Adrian Nuessel --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: source of quotation please
I thought the observation about ugly sounding -cq- was a very interesting one, and when I went to check it, it seemed to be true: for a full-corpus search on the Latin CDrom yielded about 25 instances of sicque, all fairly late, as has been noted, vs. well over a thousand instances of the alternative, et sic; so sicque definitely seems to have been avoided. But then I mentioned this to a colleague, and he suggested that I look up plain -cq- . And there were very nearly 1500 instances of words containing that pair -cq-; about 90% of these were the two pronouns quicquam and quicquid, which are of course common in classical Latin authors. So this would seem to tell against the theory that -cq- was avoided for reasons of dysphony. My colleague, Mr. Malcolm Hyman, suggested that the reason sicque would be avoided was in fact to prevent confusion of the following sort: 1) quicquam is analyzed as quid + quam, and quicquid as quid + quid. 2) Thus, most of the time when a Latin speaker heard -cqu-, they would understand that this pair of sounds was substituting for -d + qu-. 3) So, sicque would be avoided because it would be confusing, i.e. the listener might momentarily confuse it with a form *sidque, or perhaps sitque. Philip Thibodeau Brown University In message [EMAIL PROTECTED] du, RANDI C ELDEVIK [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes I'd be interested to know why sicque is objectionable by classical standards; and if Ovid did use this phrase once in the _Fasti_, can it really be called non-classical? Rare, maybe, but not non-classical. At any rate, why should classical poets have avoided sicque? Randi Eldevik Because of the ugly combination of sounds, -c qu-. Both Greek and Latin authors are far more sensitive to such matters than speakers of Germanic languages; Dionysius of Halicarnassus wrote a whole treatise on them, and he wasn't the only one, though actual rules have to be inducted from usage. Leofranc Holford-Strevens *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/267865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: source of quotation please
On Fri, 26 Feb 1999, Simon Cauchi wrote: Re: Sic mihi contingat vivere sicque mori. Leofranc Holford-Strevens writes: Neither have I found it yet, but what classical author writes 'sicque'? Good point. This suggests (and, sorry, I should have mentioned it) that the line may be from a neo-Latin poem. The quotation concludes the Life of Ariosto which is part of the endmatter of Harington's translation of Orlando furioso (1591). This English life is adapted from three 16th-cent. Italian lives by Fornari, Pigna, and Garofalo: the quotation may possibly (or possibly not) be taken from one of them, but I don't have access to any of them at present. Fornari's life was first published in the first volume (1549) of his _Spositione_, and reprinted in the Valvassori editions of OF; Pigna's was first published in his _I romanzi_ (1554) and reprinted in the Valgrisi and Franceschi editions of OF; and Garofalo's was first published with Pigna's in the Franceschi edition. I have been reading an extremely interesting article about how Harington's own hopes of a career combining writing with modest public office may be inferred, inter alia, from the discrepancies between his own account of Ariosto's life and the accounts given in the three Italian sources he is known to have used. See Jason Scott-Warren, Sir John Harington's 'Life of Ariosto' and the Textual Economy of the Elizabethan Court, Reformation, 3 (1998), 259-301 (esp. p. 263). Simon Cauchi, Freelance Editor and Indexer, Hamilton, New Zealand Just a thought-- do you suppose it (the pentameter line in question) might be by Ariosto himself? He wrote a fair amount of Latin verse, including elegies. JMP --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: source of quotation please
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 09:13:07 + (GMT) From: Don Fowler [EMAIL PROTECTED] In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Dan King [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes I can't find it as yet, but Amores i.3.18 is rather similar, so it's probably Ovid, but I'm pretty sure it's not Amores On Fri, 26 Feb 1999, Leofranc Holford-Strevens wrote: Neither have I found it yet, but what classical author writes 'sicque'? Before Optatian, sicque is only Ovid Fasti 848, but it's the Ovidian use of que attaching direct speech. Elaine Fantham's commentary is at home, so I can't check what she says. After Optatian, first is [Hilarius] de martyrio Maccabaeorum ... Don *** * Don Fowler, Fellow and Tutor in Classics, Jesus College, Oxford OX1 3DW.* * [EMAIL PROTECTED], Telephone (01865) 279700, Fax (01865) 279687.* * Home Page: http://jesus.ox.ac.uk/~dpf/ * * Classics at Oxford: http://www.classics.ox.ac.uk* *** --- Fantham simply cites Livy 1.7.2 for its similar expression; nothing about the use of -que attaching direct speech. James Lawrence Peter Butrica Department of Classics Memorial University St. John's, Newfoundland A1C 5S7 --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: source of quotation please
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 09:04:11 + (GMT) From: Don Fowler [EMAIL PROTECTED] I don' think this is classical: it's not in any of the texts on the POESIS CDRom, which has a pretty good coverage of classical poetry. It sounds right, though! Don *** * Don Fowler, Fellow and Tutor in Classics, Jesus College, Oxford OX1 3DW.* * [EMAIL PROTECTED], Telephone (01865) 279700, Fax (01865) 279687.* * Home Page: http://jesus.ox.ac.uk/~dpf/ * * Classics at Oxford: http://www.classics.ox.ac.uk* *** --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: source of quotation please
I'd be interested to know why sicque is objectionable by classical standards; and if Ovid did use this phrase once in the _Fasti_, can it really be called non-classical? Rare, maybe, but not non-classical. At any rate, why should classical poets have avoided sicque? Randi Eldevik Oklahoma State University On Fri, 26 Feb 1999, David Wilson-Okamura wrote: Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 09:13:07 + (GMT) From: Don Fowler [EMAIL PROTECTED] In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Dan King [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes I can't find it as yet, but Amores i.3.18 is rather similar, so it's probably Ovid, but I'm pretty sure it's not Amores On Fri, 26 Feb 1999, Leofranc Holford-Strevens wrote: Neither have I found it yet, but what classical author writes 'sicque'? Before Optatian, sicque is only Ovid Fasti 848, but it's the Ovidian use of que attaching direct speech. Elaine Fantham's commentary is at home, so I can't check what she says. After Optatian, first is [Hilarius] de martyrio Maccabaeorum ... Don *** * Don Fowler, Fellow and Tutor in Classics, Jesus College, Oxford OX1 3DW.* * [EMAIL PROTECTED], Telephone (01865) 279700, Fax (01865) 279687.* * Home Page: http://jesus.ox.ac.uk/~dpf/ * * Classics at Oxford: http://www.classics.ox.ac.uk* *** --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: source of quotation please
From: Lucy Morgan [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 17:29:40 + (GMT Standard Time) I have Fantham's commentary to Fasti 4 to hand. She does two things to this line - the text has sicque..., in case we hadn't noticed the speech starting, and her only comment is that Livy 1.7.2 has sic deinde quicunque alius transiliet moenia mea. I hope that is of use, Lucy Morgan Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 09:13:07 + (GMT) From: Don Fowler [EMAIL PROTECTED] In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Dan King [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes I can't find it as yet, but Amores i.3.18 is rather similar, so it's probably Ovid, but I'm pretty sure it's not Amores On Fri, 26 Feb 1999, Leofranc Holford-Strevens wrote: Neither have I found it yet, but what classical author writes 'sicque'? Before Optatian, sicque is only Ovid Fasti 848, but it's the Ovidian use of que attaching direct speech. Elaine Fantham's commentary is at home, so I can't check what she says. After Optatian, first is [Hilarius] de martyrio Maccabaeorum ... --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: source of quotation please
I don't have time to go through all Ovid's _Heroides_ and _Amores_ right now, but that's where I would start looking. Hope this pans out. Randi Eldevik Oklahoma State University On Thu, 25 Feb 1999, Simon Cauchi wrote: This is probably not Virgil, since it's clearly the second line of an elegiac couplet, but I've had no success in tracing the source of this line. Help from a classicist will be much appreciated: Sic mihi contingat vivere sicque mori. Simon Cauchi, Freelance Editor and Indexer, Hamilton, New Zealand [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: source of quotation please
I can't find it as yet, but Amores i.3.18 is rather similar, so it's probably Ovid, but I'm pretty sure it's not Amores Dan King -- From: Simon Cauchi [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: VIRGIL: source of quotation please Date: Thursday, February 25, 1999 4:09 AM This is probably not Virgil, since it's clearly the second line of an elegiac couplet, but I've had no success in tracing the source of this line. Help from a classicist will be much appreciated: Sic mihi contingat vivere sicque mori. Simon Cauchi, Freelance Editor and Indexer, Hamilton, New Zealand [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: source of quotation please
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Dan King [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes I can't find it as yet, but Amores i.3.18 is rather similar, so it's probably Ovid, but I'm pretty sure it's not Amores Neither have I found it yet, but what classical author writes 'sicque'? Leofranc Holford-Strevens *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/267865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: source of quotation please
Re: Sic mihi contingat vivere sicque mori. Leofranc Holford-Strevens writes: Neither have I found it yet, but what classical author writes 'sicque'? Good point. This suggests (and, sorry, I should have mentioned it) that the line may be from a neo-Latin poem. The quotation concludes the Life of Ariosto which is part of the endmatter of Harington's translation of Orlando furioso (1591). This English life is adapted from three 16th-cent. Italian lives by Fornari, Pigna, and Garofalo: the quotation may possibly (or possibly not) be taken from one of them, but I don't have access to any of them at present. Fornari's life was first published in the first volume (1549) of his _Spositione_, and reprinted in the Valvassori editions of OF; Pigna's was first published in his _I romanzi_ (1554) and reprinted in the Valgrisi and Franceschi editions of OF; and Garofalo's was first published with Pigna's in the Franceschi edition. I have been reading an extremely interesting article about how Harington's own hopes of a career combining writing with modest public office may be inferred, inter alia, from the discrepancies between his own account of Ariosto's life and the accounts given in the three Italian sources he is known to have used. See Jason Scott-Warren, Sir John Harington's 'Life of Ariosto' and the Textual Economy of the Elizabethan Court, Reformation, 3 (1998), 259-301 (esp. p. 263). Simon Cauchi, Freelance Editor and Indexer, Hamilton, New Zealand [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
VIRGIL: source of quotation please
This is probably not Virgil, since it's clearly the second line of an elegiac couplet, but I've had no success in tracing the source of this line. Help from a classicist will be much appreciated: Sic mihi contingat vivere sicque mori. Simon Cauchi, Freelance Editor and Indexer, Hamilton, New Zealand [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
